What Exactly Does a Believer Follow?

[Steel]

I'm starting this thread in the hope that it helps us as a community come to better understand the matter of how we, as believers in Christ Jesus, follow something.

All too often I read on threads (and have even been accused myself) of a person or persons "...following Witness Lee..." (meaning, following a man), or "...following the brothers...", or "...following LSM...", and so on. But what exactly is the content... The reality of our "...following..."?... Are we chained to any of these persons/things, so that wherever they go we must follow? Surely not, right... As has been proven by many here... Anyone can just choose to not "...follow..." someone or something.

Now there may be hardship/suffering in the application of this choice... But this hardship/suffering doesn't stop the application of the choice to stop "...following..."... It only makes the application of it somewhat of a hardship or suffering. Google the search term "scripture we learn through suffering"... Over 10,000,000 seach results... The first of which, from Bible.org, is titled, "The Value of Suffering"... Which links to an article that begins with the paragraph... "There is no such thing as pointless pain in the life of the child of God. How this has encouraged and strengthened me in the valleys of suffering and pain! In this essay I'll be discussing the value of suffering, an unhappy non-negotiable of life in a fallen world."

Here's one of Paul's speakings on the matter... Acts 14:22... "Establishing the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and saying that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God." . . . And there are many, many more scripture verses that speak on the matter of hardship/suffering being used by the Lord to bring us deeper into Him as our reality.

So, again... Although we are not chained to anyone or anything, and can therefore choose to not follow either at any time we wish... There can be a hardship/suffering involved in doing so... But this hardship/suffering, if scripture is to be believed, will work out for our own benefit... And something that works out for our benefit should be considered a good thing.

Now, if we can choose to not "...follow..." someone or something, then this tells us that to "...follow..." someone or something is also a choice we make... And this being the case... The reality of "...following..." someone or something is really a matter of individual choice... Which according to scripture takes place in an individual way and in the individual heart of the person making the choice.

When, as born again believers, we stand before our Lord... We will be standing as individuals... Not a group. And we'll be standing as individuals because we alone are responsible for our choices... Which is what the Lord will be judging at that time. . . . Saints... The truth is... We as believers "...follow..." our own individual thoughts... Meaning... The person that someone says is "...following Witness Lee..." is not following Witness Lee, but only following their thoughts regarding Witness Lee. And the same goes for all other things we all "...follow...".

And this is why scripture tells us in Ephesians 4:23... "...be renewed in the spirit of your mind..." and Philippians 2:5... "...Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,...".

I don't follow a person, or a ministry, or anything else... I follow my mind... And it is the same for all of us. And because I've come to know this, over the years I have become more and more focused on what I allow my mind to receive, consider, and digest. Which is the reality the following scripture verse speaks to...

1 Peter 1:13... "Therefore girding up the loins of your mind and being sober, set your hope perfectly on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

See that... "...girding up the loins of your mind... and being sober,... set your hope perfectly on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." . . . There it is... The need... And the solution to the need... Let us gird the loins of our minds... Because it is the sober thing to do... And to be sober is to set our hope... Perfectly... On the grace being brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ. . . . Nothing else but setting our hope on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ can gird up our minds.

And so that is what I try to always pursue in all my pursuing... The hope that I have in the grace being brought to me at the revelation of Jesus Christ. . . . And scripture tells us that grace that we can receive at the revelation of Jesus Christ can sometimes be found being expressed out of speaking donkeys, dry dead bones, former murders, unsaved Roman centurions, crazy looking men in dressed in camel skin, an old man building an ark... You get the picture.

A very dear older brother (been holding to WL's ministry since the late '60s) I know from my time in the local church in Miami once said to me... "Develop a taste for life, and in doing so, you will instinctively know when what you're eating isn't life." . . . Nothing about Witness Lee or his ministry, just that simply speaking . . . I've never forgotten those words... And today... If there is anything that I follow... It is what I believe tastes of life.

And this is what I try to encourage others to do as well.

[Evangelical]

There is a caveat to "following life". Life is the person Jesus Christ. A person who follows life follows Jesus. When we see the Lord in something or someone we know the life is there. Sometimes what we think is life may not be associated with the person of Jesus Christ. This is a counterfeit life. We may end up following our feelings rather than fact. The new age movement for example has a counterfeit life, but is not associated with the person of Christ.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There is a caveat to "following life". Life is the person Jesus Christ. A person who follows life follows Jesus. When we see the Lord in something or someone we know the life is there. Sometimes what we think is life may not be associated with the person of Jesus Christ. This is a counterfeit life. We may end up following our feelings rather than fact. The new age movement for example has a counterfeit life, but is not associated with the person of Christ.

Christ is life; but life is not Christ. Lucifer has given a shiny little ball called "life" to the recovery that he uses to distract the saints from Christ. The level of idolatry in the recovery can be measured by the degree that "life" is the focus rather than Christ. To be fair, I don't think idolatry is restricted to the recovery. For example in the past my current denomination was known for preaching "once saved always saved". To the degree that the saints in this denomination focused on the security of the believer rather than on the one who secures the salvation, Christ Himself, would be an indicator of idolatry.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is a counterfeit life. We may end up following our feelings rather than fact..

Amen to that.

Many of us think we are following Christ, yet:

When we speak of "love" as excuse to tolerate misdeeds in the church, the spirit is wrong.

When we say the "church is perfect in the eyes of God" and do not stand up against false teachings and sinful behaviors, the spirit is wrong.

When we count all problems in the church just as "human errors" and become indifferent, the spirit is wrong.

When we say we follow Christ and start to look down on others' truthful opinions and experiences as only from the "natural man" and even "lies", the spirit is wrong.

Very often, "...not following man ...following Christ..." becomes empty words and just another form of whitewashed graves.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Amen to that.

Many of us think we are following Christ, yet:

When we speak of "love" as excuse to tolerate misdeeds in the church, the spirit is wrong.

When we say the "church is perfect in the eyes of God" and do not stand up against false teachings and sinful behaviors, the spirit is wrong.

When we count all problems in the church just as "human errors" and become indifferent, the spirit is wrong.

When we say we follow Christ and start to look down on others' truthful opinions and experiences as only from the "natural man" and even "lies", the spirit is wrong.

Very often, "...not following man ...following Christ..." becomes empty words and just another form of whitewashed graves.

Very good points. I DIDNT CHOOSE TO BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED in the churches. I was simply addressing the wake in the new way the churches were experiencing and got set aside. I chose to keep addressing the misdeeds, not ignore them, and I have been blessed with life and an enlarged heart for doing so.

[Steel]

I would love to be able to give all the comments in this thread a huge THUMBS UP like... As, for me... The speaking in the comments so far have absolutely expressed life... Divine life... The life that is our Lord Jesus Christ.

This, for me, is the content of the reality that builds the body of Christ... Speaking in and out of our experience of Christ... Whether it be, in our partial view (we see in part) positve or negative... For me, to live is Christ... And to die to self is gain.

It's taken twenty years for the Lord to get me to this point... And I have a long way to God... But thank You, Lord... For keeping me in You, and causing me to be one who is, to one degree or another, according to the supply of grace You have measured out to me... Walking in You more and more each day.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Steel

... It's not a matter of "see no evil"... It is a matter of upon seeing evil, what are we to do... And on that... Scripture is very clear.

Brother Steel, I noticed your post in the Billy Graham thread mentioning about seeing evil in the church. I hope you don't mind my extending the discussion to this thread.

I am curious. From your viewpoint, and as followers of Christ, when we see evil in the church, what exactly are we to do according to the Scripture?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Brother Steel, I noticed your post in the Billy Graham thread mentioning about seeing evil in the church. I hope you don't mind my extending the discussion to this thread.

I am curious. From your viewpoint, and as followers of Christ, when we see evil in the church, what exactly are we to do according to the Scripture?

Now... Just to be clear... This is what I actually said...

"So, no, Koinonia... It's not a matter of "see no evil"... It is a matter of upon seeing evil, what are we to do... And on that... Scripture is very clear. . . . Always... Always... Turn to scripture."

See... I didn't actually say/mention anything about "...seeing evil in the church..."... And just for future reference... It would be a good practice to speak what people actually said... That way you cannot be guilty of speaking falsely.

But, to respond to your question of what I think we should do if evil is found anywhere... Do that which scripture tells us to do...

Turn to the Lord so that we do not become shipwrecked regarding our love for the Lord and His church. . . . And beyond that... Scripture tells us that God supplies us with a certain measure of grace to carry out what He leads us in.

Which then brings up the question of how do we now this grace of God... And know what our measure of grace is... And for.

Ephesians 2:8... "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;..."

Scripture tells us that we are saved by grace... And so if there is a problem of evil in the body of believers (and we need to see the difference between the humanity of the members of the body, and the divinity of the members of the body... Because although we are still on this earth in decaying bodies and our fallen natural man... We are also seated with Christ in the heavens)... This problem of evil can only be properly dealt with in and through God's grace... As God's grace is what saves us.

Now... Check this out... Look at how I concluded my comment that you were referencing...

"And if we are all honest... We'd all admit that the only thing standing between any of us holding to any of the negatives folks highlight on these threads about Billy Graham, Witness Lee, or anyone else... Is God's grace.

Were it not for the grace of God... Everyone participating on these forum threads would only be sorry fallen wretches."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

But, to respond to your question of what I think we should do if evil is found anywhere... Do that which scripture tells us to do...

Turn to the Lord so that we do not become shipwrecked regarding our love for the Lord and His church. . . . And beyond that... Scripture tells us that God supplies us with a certain measure of grace to carry out what He leads us in.

The Bible never says to turn to the Lord or we will be shipwrecked.

The Bible says to turn our heart to the Lord and the veil will be taken away.

The Bible says that those who do not hold faith and a good conscience may be shipwrecked regarding the faith.

Sorry, brother Steel, but to be honest with you, you really come across as a know-it-all. Perhaps you are not aware of this. Paul says even if we have all knowledge, but not love, we can become nothing. A good warning for us all.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Steel

See... I didn't actually say/mention anything about "...seeing evil in the church..."... And just for future reference... It would be a good practice to speak what people actually said... That way you cannot be guilty of speaking falsely.

The context of “seeing no evil” was on “all things LC-related” in Koinonia’s post. Unless you don’t consider LC part of the church, or you were careless responding to him, I don’t really think I spoke falsely. Anyway, I will be more careful next time in order not to stumble others into false accusation.

Originally Posted by Steel

Turn to the Lord so that we do not become shipwrecked regarding our love for the Lord and His church. . . . And beyond that... Scripture tells us that God supplies us with a certain measure of grace to carry out what He leads us in.

Sorry that all these look like empty words to me. Not that they are wrong, but you never mentioned what follows. What type of actions do you carry out after turning to the Lord? Have you ever been pushed by the Lord to act against evil in the church? Did it ever come to you that love is exactly the reason why many brothers and sisters spoke up in this forum?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible never says to turn to the Lord or we will be shipwrecked.

I never said it did.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible says to turn our heart to the Lord and the veil will be taken away.

Perhaps ships get wrecked when the steerer is veiled.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible says that those who do not hold faith and a good conscience may be shipwrecked regarding the faith.

Yep, it does.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, brother Steel, but to be honest with you, you really come across as a know-it-all. Perhaps you are not aware of this. Paul says even if we have all knowledge, but not love, we can become nothing. A good warning for us all.

Honestly, Ohio... Your opinion of is really of no value to me... When you can get out of yourself and into your spirit so that we can fellowship on the Lord's matters let me know.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by A little brother

The context of “seeing no evil” was on “all things LC-related” in Koinonia’s post.

I know... I went back and checked, and actually had a second window opened with it as I wrote my reply to you.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Unless you don’t consider LC part of the church, or you were careless responding to him, I don’t really think I spoke falsely."

I don't think I was careless in my response to him. I thought I was clear in what I presented.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Anyway, I will be more careful next time in order not to stumble others into false accusation.

Always a good practice.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Sorry that all these look like empty words to me.

No need to be... We're all at different levels of our walk with the Lord/growth in life.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Not that they are wrong, but you never mentioned what follows.

You didn't ask... But I can certainly do so for you.

Originally Posted by A little brother

What type of actions do you carry out after turning to the Lord?

If you're turned to the Lord... You'll be lead by the Lord... And I've learned not to presume how He will lead someone.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Have you ever been pushed by the Lord to act against evil in the church?

In the context of believing members of the body of Christ conducting themselves in and oit of their natural man, sure... I'm doing so right now.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Did it ever come to you that love is exactly the reason why many brothers and sisters spoke up in this forum?

Absolutely... But love of what... And out of what?

Do you know what the fruit of the Spiirt is?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, brother Steel, but to be honest with you, you really come across as a know-it-all. Perhaps you are not aware of this. Paul says even if we have all knowledge, but not love, we can become nothing. A good warning for us all.

Ohio - At the very least, those participating on this forum and those lurkers can read Steel's words and see all six fingers pointing back to him alone. It is truly a sad thing to watch. I defended his right to post here, because he shines a light onto the heart of an active member of the LC. One - that among other things - accuses others, yet is blind to their own depravity and state of reality.

We know that for those who love God, he works all things together for good. I pray that the Lord uses Steel's loveless and lifeless words for his good.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Steel

I know... I went back and checked, and actually had a second window opened with it as I wrote my reply to you.

I don't think I was careless in my response to him. I thought I was clear in what I presented.

Interesting. You knew the context was about seeing evil in all things LC-related. You weren't careless in your resopnse to Koinonia. You thought you were clear in what you presented yet you had implied I was speaking falsely when I said it was about "seeing evil in the church"? Plain reasoning leads me to the possibility that:
(1) you don't consider LC to be related to the church; or
(2) you intentionally responded to Koinonia in a different context
Anyway, I am just thinking out loud. Not coming to any conclusion here.

Originally Posted by Steel

In the context of believing members of the body of Christ conducting themselves in and oit of their natural man, sure... I'm doing so right now.

I hope you are not switching context here because the discussion has been in the context of seeing evil in all things LC-related. When you said your action is posting in this forum, you seemed to imply seeing evil in this forum from without the LC, or at least part of the posts, or may be even my specific post. I don't intend to further discuss towards this direction at the moment (not that I agree with you, just not to carry this discussion too far away).

But I would like to understand whether you saw any evil from within the LC and whether the Lord had subsequently led you to take certain actions.

Originally Posted by Steel

Absolutely... But love of what... And out of what?

"Love for the Lord and His church". Wan't this the context that you set in your post (#8)?

[OhLordJesus]

You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act religious, but they reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!

[Steel]

This first...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I pray that the Lord uses Steel's loveless and lifeless words for his good.

Are you so blind as to not realize that your own words above expose your own "...loveless and lifeless..." condition, leastofthese.

Shoot... Even the contradiction between your username and your speaking exposes this.

And then this...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I defended his right to post here, because he shines a light onto the heart of an active member of the LC. One - that among other things - accuses others, yet is blind to their own depravity and state of reality.

And again... Are you so blind as to not realize that your own accusing words above expose your "...own depravity and state of reality....", leastofthese.

And then this...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

It is truly a sad thing to watch.

And yet your own words expose your inability to see even your own poor condition... What then can you "...watch..." regarding me.

And finally, this...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

We know that for those who love God, he works all things together for good.

Yes... We do... And that is a reality we should rejoice in... Always rejoice in... As in not be sad in.

Which means... If you're sad watching someone... You obviously do not have your eyes on Jesus... But then... We know that for those who love God, he works all things together for good.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Interesting. You knew the context was about seeing evil in all things LC-related. I hope you are not switching context here because the discussion has been in the context of seeing evil in all things LC-related.

I'm going to suggest that you take a bit more time to consider this matter... As in your speaking above you have again spoke in absolute error...

To help you with this... Let me repeat what I said in response to your first comment regarding what you erroneously said/suggested I spoke...

"...Now... Just to be clear... This is what I actually said...

"So, no, Koinonia... It's not a matter of "see no evil"... It is a matter of upon seeing evil, what are we to do... And on that... Scripture is very clear. . . . Always... Always... Turn to scripture."

See... I didn't actually say/mention anything about "...seeing evil in the church..."... And just for future reference... It would be a good practice to speak what people actually said... That way you cannot be guilty of speaking falsely."

I'm really not sure what is unclear to you in my above speaking, A little brother.

But... And I am clear regarding this but...

I notice that you have changed your speaking a bit... And are now saying... "...You knew the context was about seeing evil in all things LC-related..."

First you said/suggested that I said "...seeing evil in the church..." . . . And now, after I pointed out your error to you, you said in your above quoted speaking... "...You knew the context was about seeing evil in all things LC-related."

And again, just as in the first instance... You're in error.

Honestly... Based on your confused speaking, I wonder if you've even read my related comments in the Billy Graham thread.

A little brother... Go back and read all of my realted comments in the Billy Graham thread... Then come back and hopefully write a comment that is not based in and out of your erroneous conclusions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

Shoot... Even the contradiction between your username and your speaking exposes this.

Well bro, not sure about the rest of us, but you definitely live up to your name!

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Steel

.....
First you said/suggested that I said "...seeing evil in the church..." . . . And now, after I pointed out your error to you, you said in your above quoted speaking... "...You knew the context was about seeing evil in all things LC-related."

And again, just as in the first instance... You're in error.

Honestly... Based on your confused speaking, I wonder if you've even read my related comments in the Billy Graham thread.
....

Oh boy, now who is confused? When I responded to your post #8 with my comment "The context of “seeing no evil” was on “all things LC-related” in Koinonia’s post.", you yourself replied in #12 "I know... I went back and checked, and actually had a second window opened with it as I wrote my reply to you."

Do you really need to post such a lengthy reply proving nothing but your own error? Or are you simply evading the question of "whether you saw any evil from within the LC and whether the Lord had subsequently led you to take certain actions."?

-------------------------------------
1 Cor 8:2 If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet come to know as he ought to know;

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

This first...



Are you so blind as to not realize that your own words above expose your own "...loveless and lifeless..." condition, leastofthese.

Shoot... Even the contradiction between your username and your speaking exposes this.

And then this...



And again... Are you so blind as to not realize that your own accusing words above expose your "...own depravity and state of reality....", leastofthese.

And then this...



And yet your own words expose your inability to see even your own poor condition... What then can you "...watch..." regarding me.

And finally, this...



Yes... We do... And that is a reality we should rejoice in... Always rejoice in... As in not be sad in.

Which means... If you're sad watching someone... You obviously do not have your eyes on Jesus... But then... We know that for those who love God, he works all things together for good.

Praying for you man.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Praying for you man.

Thanks again, leastofthese.

I keep reminding myself of Paul's impeccable instruction, "love is patient, love is kind."

[Steel]

A little brother...

This is what you said in your post about what you noticed in my post...

"...I noticed your post in the Billy Graham thread mentioning about seeing evil in the church..."

Follow me here...

Were you saying that in my post I mentioned "...seeing evil in the church..."?

Or...

Were you saying that in the Billy Graham thread "...seeing evil in the church..." was mentioned?

The way I read what you said is that I specifically mentioned "...seeing evil in the church..." in my comment . . . Which, as is clearly obvious to anyone who reads the related comment, I didn't. . . . And what I have been responding to you is based on the way that I read what you wrote.

I'm hoping that the above clears up any confusion.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Or are you simply evading the question of "whether you saw any evil from within the LC and whether the Lord had subsequently led you to take certain actions."?

I see evil both within me and around me... All day every day... And The Lord most certainly leads me to "...take certain actions..." against . . . As I hope you see in yourself, and all around you... And the Lord leads you to "...take certain actions..." against.

This is all part of our working out of our salvation, my brother... It's normal in our Christian life.

The above made clear... Regarding the local church in particular... I believe that anything I speak in the Lord to any member of the local church builds up the body of Christ... And for the body of Christ to be built up... Life has to come in... And as life comes in, evil is confronted, terminated, and flushed out... Just as scripture reveals to us.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Steel

The above made clear... Regarding the local church in particular... I believe that anything I speak in the Lord to any member of the local church builds up the body of Christ... And for the body of Christ to be built up... Life has to come in... And as life comes in, evil is confronted, terminated, and flushed out... Just as scripture reveals to us.

Does it come to you that members here could also be speaking in the Lord for building up the body of Christ when they point out the evil they saw in the LC? There can be life too when we rebuke misdeeds or misteachings in the church.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Ohio - At the very least, those participating on this forum and those lurkers can read Steel's words and see all six fingers pointing back to him alone. It is truly a sad thing to watch. I defended his right to post here, because he shines a light onto the heart of an active member of the LC. One - that among other things - accuses others, yet is blind to their own depravity and state of reality.
We know that for those who love God, he works all things together for good. I pray that the Lord uses Steel's loveless and lifeless words for his good.

LofT,

Brother, your post is predictable and expected. They remind me of the hunters who sit on ledge looking down on a clearing waiting for a deer to walk by so they can unload. No effort to understand what a brother is saying and not an ounce of grace in your tongue. Seriously, what fault can be found in the intention stated in the base note of this thread? Do not be deceived brother, your prayers for brothers in the local church will be in vain if you use words in them like those you used above,

Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT, Brother, your post is predictable and expected. They remind me of the hunters who sit on ledge looking down on a clearing waiting for a deer to walk by so they can unload. No effort to understand what a brother is saying and not an ounce of grace in your tongue. Seriously, what fault can be found in the intention stated in the base note of this thread? Do not be deceived brother, your prayers for brothers in the local church will be in vain if you use words in them like those you used above,

Drake, this is typical of the LC attitude and the attitude of LC posters here. You so easily dish out the judgment on others, but are taken aback when called out on it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

Brother, your post is predictable and expected.

Drake

Brother LeastofThese,

Drake uses the same condescending line on me too.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, this is typical of the LC attitude and the attitude of LC posters here. You so easily dish out the judgment on others, but are taken aback when called out on it.

Be real Koinonia.

Look at the loaded terms in his first entry completely ignoring the sentiment in the base note. Tell me those are words of peace for a prayer. Better to leave the prayer, reconcile, and then go pray for his brother.

Besides, if his intentions in his prayer are pure he does not need to announce it in a public square. It is his right to do it, but how effective will it be?

Steel is a straight talker... to everyone. I agree with many things he says though not everything. But it is absurd to characterize his posts as “depravity”, “lifeless, or “loveless”. He challenges us to turn to the Lord, follow our spirit, pursue the Spirit. He leans on the life side. That is not depraved, lifeless, or loveless. I for one, believe the Lord has sent him here to reach posters in this forum. I don’t know for sure but how many brothers will you slander before you are left with just your own? You don’t have to agree with anything but you should listen and you certainly should not slander as LofT did.

Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

I for one, believe the Lord has sent him here to reach posters in this forum.

Drake, glad to see you joining this thread. May be the Lord sent you here too. Actually, the question I was asking Steel is not that different from the questions I asked you months ago. The answers would probably indicate what exactly we are following. Still patiently waiting for your reply.

Originally Posted by A little brother

...
I like your analogy of the Corinthian church. How do you see your position in the LC when comparing with the Corinthian church? Are you one of the members in the church who tolerated or even covered up the unrighteousness or Paul who directly pointed out what was wrong?

What did Jesus do when he saw the Holy Temple became a den of robbers? Did He say it is still God's Temple and forgive them 70x7?

When you say you condemned the actions of Philip Lee, did you step up to fellowship with Lee or other elders? If yes, what was the outcome?

I asked you months ago when you first shared your vision in this forum. Now I ask again. How much closer is the LC now to the vision you received 40 years ago?
...

[Steel]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Does it come to you that members here could also be speaking in the Lord for building up the body of Christ when they point out the evil they saw in the LC?

Absolutely... Who am I to discount/disqualify/disrepect/dispise the experience in the Lord, of another believer in the Lord.

Originally Posted by A little brother

There can be life too when we rebuke misdeeds or misteachings in the church.

Again, absolutely... But only when this is done... In life... And we, by the grace of God, have the Spirit in us, and scripture, to guide us in knowing when it is in life... Or in death.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Praying for you man.

By your own speaking to me, I doubt it.

But praise the Lord... He knows.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Drake

Steel is a straight talker... to everyone. I agree with many things he says though not everything. But it is absurd to characterize his posts as “depravity”, “lifeless, or “loveless”. He challenges us to turn to the Lord, follow our spirit, pursue the Spirit. He leans on the life side. That is not depraved, lifeless, or loveless. I for one, believe the Lord has sent him here to reach posters in this forum. I don’t know for sure but how many brothers will you slander before you are left with just your own? You don’t have to agree with anything but you should listen and you certainly should not slander as LofT did. Drake

Yesterday I dropped into a very low state in my being.

I wanted nothing to do with the Lord. I chided Him. I mocked Him. I cursed at Him. I even dealt angrily with a dear brother I meet with on a weekly basis when He called me up, desperate for a little fellowship.

Too many things weighed on me. Car problems, financial responsibilities, confusion regarding how to move forward in practical things... And the negativity I encounter on this website.

After being placed on "moderation" limitation again, and logging off of this website, I went to my Facebook page to see if there were any responses to my speaking on various threads that I needed to respond to, and saw that I had a private message from a sister who I have been ministering to (her words) for maybe two or three years. She asked me if I had started the project I had asked for her help on...

I just wrote back saying... "Not yet... But I certainly believe that the Lord is pointing me in that direction."

She responded with this... "He has poured a great deal into you, I'm sure there are no limits to what He may do through you... A beautiful vessel for our God's use."

To which I replied... "Well... Sometimes that's not what I see when I look in the mirror... But I appreciate your thoughts."

To which she replied... "Well, we're not supposed to be looking at ourselves anyway. But we see each other, and His reflection there."

(Which is what I am usually telling others)

To which I replied... "Thank you for reminding me of that. As with us all... It's still a work in progress for me... But my failing is an opportunity for me to have fellowship with you regarding it... And in and through this fellowship... Is mutual building up... Which in turn is the reality of the building of the body of Christ... I know... But sometimes it's just not so uplifting to experience in my natural man... Which I also know needs to be terminated... And around and around I go... Thank you my sister... You are as always, a blessing to me.

To which she replied... "Keep looking upward."

And then, this morning I read what Drake has said above... To which I respond... In love... To all here... With this simple hymn...

I’m thankful that God has placed me
With you to build up His Body.
Christ in you is the hope for me!
You also need Christ lived in me.

I live, if you stand firm in the Lord.
You live, if I stand firm in the Lord.
My going on is for you,
Your going on is for me,
Not sep’rate entities,
I need you saints desp’rately!

Oh, what a sweet church life have we!
Built up in Him, His bride to be!
In Him steadfast, you help me be;
Encouraged by Christ whom I see.

Your faith in Christ helps me pursue;
My progress depends upon you!
As I seek Christ, with you in view,
My heart, full of prayers, is for you.

God’s heart longs, desires that we,
His lovers, seek Him corp’rately.
On each other spent constantly;
My life is for you, yours for me.

I want to encourage you all,
Without your supply I would fall.
Never think that your Christ is small.
Christ needs you, and so do we all.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Drake, glad to see you joining this thread. May be the Lord sent you here too. Actually, the question I was asking Steel is not that different from the questions I asked you months ago. The answers would probably indicate what exactly we are following. Still patiently waiting for your reply.

Hi ALb,

Sorry. Don’t have time to answer all your questions and this is not the thread to pick that up.

If you have one question post it in the appropriate thread and I will try to answer. I am more of a conversationalist, and quickly lose interest in lengthy lists of questions. Others, like Steel and Evangelical are better equipped for that kind of engagement so it’s not you but me.

Thanks
Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Steel

Absolutely... Who am I to discount/disqualify/disrepect/dispise the experience in the Lord, of another believer in the Lord.

Again, absolutely... But only when this is done... In life... And we, by the grace of God, have the Spirit in us, and scripture, to guide us in knowing when it is in life... Or in death.

I am glad that you seem to agree on these points. I do hope you can apply this when responding to some posts here. Sometimes, it appears to me you jump to conclusion too fast to bring up accusations to the posters. But what do I know, may be you have a different way to discern "life".

To me, many concerns raised in this forum are genuine and are not raised out of selfish ambition or "fallen natural man". It is not only about the misdeeds themselves but how the misdeeds are dealt with - there don't seem to be "life" in how the LC leaders handle the matters. These are matters we are urged to voice out as follower of Christ.

Sometimes we all get too zealous and become a bit hostile. That is when we need the peace in Christ. Having said that, there are still matters of right or wrong that simply cannot be ignored in the name of peace or oneness or leave-it-to-God. After all, we are expected to be holy because God is holy. God can be graceful to sinners but He does not tolerate sin.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

Hi ALb,

Sorry. Don’t have time to answer all your questions and this is not the thread to pick that up.

If you have one question post it in the appropriate thread and I will try to answer. I am more of a conversationalist, and quickly lose interest in lengthy lists of questions. Others, like Steel and Evangelical are better equipped for that kind of engagement so it’s not you but me.

Thanks
Drake

Drake, thanks for the reply. I will think about this.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

By your own speaking to me, I doubt it.

But praise the Lord... He knows.

Wow man. I'm just now seeing this... so sad for you.

You mentioned in another post "Yes... We do... And that is a reality we should rejoice in... Always rejoice in... As in not be sad in."

I do feel sad for you, more of a pity really (in a non-condescending type way). Matthew 9 says that when Jesus saw the crowds so confused and helpless he felt sorry for them. That is my heart for you. I will continue to pray for you man.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

Brother, your post is predictable and expected. They remind me of the hunters who sit on ledge looking down on a clearing waiting for a deer to walk by so they can unload. No effort to understand what a brother is saying and not an ounce of grace in your tongue. Seriously, what fault can be found in the intention stated in the base note of this thread? Do not be deceived brother, your prayers for brothers in the local church will be in vain if you use words in them like those you used above,

Drake

Hey Drake - what was it that I said that made you feel this way?

No effort to understand? No grace? Deceived?

I'm confused. I have no reason to unload, I have no ammo...

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Drake, thanks for the reply. I will think about this.

Sure alb, no problem.

Thanks
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Hey Drake - what was it that I said that made you feel this way?

No effort to understand? No grace? Deceived?

I'm confused. I have no reason to unload, I have no ammo...

LofT,

Ill try answer it this way. You used some unkind words but, rather than focus on those entirely, let’s get down to the heart of the matter. In post 13 you said

“At the very least, those participating on this forum and those lurkers can read Steel's words and see all six fingers pointing back to him alone. It is truly a sad thing to watch.”

This is an obvious switch move on your part to counter what our brother Steel has said several times on this forum about pointing fingers at others and three pointing back at the person doing the pointing. Only you’ve doubled down with 6 fingers pointing back at Steel but that doesn’t negate or counter his main underlying point. It seems you are just trying to pin him in the same way you think he has pinned you without addressing the underlying point.

Steel didn’t say it exactly like this but having considered his mention of this finger pointing several times I believe there is a crucial matter at the heart of this and I will put it in my own words as the Lord has been speaking it to me. That is, that Satan’s strategy against us as brothers and collectively as the church is to accuse us and the brothers. Accusing the brothers is how he gains strength and power. Accusing the brothers is how he grows from a serpent to a dragon (Rev 12). Through the Lords accomplishment we have redemption but we also have the blood to combat Satan’s accusation. We overcome him first by the blood of the Lamb. When the blood is embraced the accusation cannot stand. Both cannot coexist. When accusations fly against the brothers the blood is being ignored. When the blood is applied the accusation will fail. I do not believe any of us in this forum want to aid and abet Satan’s accusation, and yet all too often we find that scenario being played out. In comes a forum newbie and he calls it out and yet his calling it out cannot be considered falling into the same trap because he is calling out a pattern of behavior. He is not immune from falling into the same error but calling attention to it not the same. I objected to your recent posts because they include characterizations of a brother in terms of “ depravity,” “ loveless, “ “ lifeless.”.. and though you may see it that way there is no distinction on accusations whether they be with or without cause as they are all under His precious blood.

After Satan, the accuser of the brothers, is cast down then the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of Christ. Satan accuses to hold onto power and the church applies the blood to gain victories one accusation after other, day by day, to bring in the kingdom of God. I think Steel had the vantage point being new and saw it from a fresh perspective.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

After Satan, the accuser of the brothers, is cast down then the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of Christ. Satan accuses to hold onto power and the church applies the blood to gain victories one accusation after other, day by day, to bring in the kingdom of God. I think Steel had the vantage point being new and saw it from a fresh perspective.

Drake

WL made his ministry out of condemning all of Christianity, and you know are connecting poster leastofthese with Satan, the accuser of the brothers, for calling out a frequent forum bully?

You apparently have no clue how hypocritical this sounds to former members.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I am glad that you seem to agree on these points. I do hope you can apply this when responding to some posts here. Sometimes, it appears to me you jump to conclusion too fast to bring up accusations to the posters. But what do I know, may be you have a different way to discern "life".

See, A little brother... The above is just you trying to insult me... And honestly, for me, it simply exposes your immaturty in the Lord... And therefore there is nothing of life in it.

Originally Posted by A little brother

To me, many concerns raised in this forum are genuine and are not raised out of selfish ambition or "fallen natural man".

What else can you say... You're pretty much in bondage to say exactly that... If you didn't you would simply be undermining your own position... And scripture tells us that only God knows the hearts (meaning, intentions) of men... Which pretty much makes your opinion of what others may or may not be doing on this forum... Well... Of no value... And only an expression of your vanity.

At least... That's how scripture would put it.

Originally Posted by A little brother

It is not only about the misdeeds themselves but how the misdeeds are dealt with - there don't seem to be "life" in how the LC leaders handle the matters.

Then take care of yourself accordingly... Meaning, how scripture tells you to care for yourself.

Originally Posted by A little brother

These are matters we are urged to voice out as follower of Christ.

Well... According to a very specific manner... But some here seem to prefer just to ignore what scripture says if it doesn't support their offended feelings.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Sometimes we all get too zealous and become a bit hostile.

Sure... But more than just getting hostile... The fact that you become hostile (and by "you" I mean any of us) means that there is a deep issue/problem within ourselves that needs to be dealt with in and through the work of the cross... And then brought into resurrection life.

Unfortunately... We like to tell ourselves that if we simply say "Sorry" and kiss and make up, then everything is just perfectly fine and dandy.

But the reality is, it's not... As the intrinsic problem that caused us to become hostile in the first place, within ourselves, still remains.

Originally Posted by A little brother

That is when we need the peace in Christ.

My brother... We need to peace of Christ at all times... Not just when things seem to get "hostile".

When things get hostile it is because we have failed to give ourselves to the work of the cross... And the need is to do just that.

Originally Posted by A little brother

Having said that, there are still matters of right or wrong that simply cannot be ignored in the name of peace or oneness or leave-it-to-God. After all, we are expected to be holy because God is holy. God can be graceful to sinners but He does not tolerate sin.

We can only be holy according to teh measure of grace God has measured out to us.

And when Jesus walked this earth there were all sorts of "right" and "wrong" matters all around Him... That He seemed to ignore... As He focused on His walk to the cross.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Wow man. I'm just now seeing this... so sad for you.

Not in my view... I'm good with seeing things clearly... And another brother on this thread seemed to have said pretty much the same thing.

Speaking out of both sides of your mouth is not of God.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

You mentioned in another post "Yes... We do... And that is a reality we should rejoice in... Always rejoice in... As in not be sad in."

Yep... That I did.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I do feel sad for you, more of a pity really (in a non-condescending type way).

LOL... Sure.... The Lord knows.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Matthew 9 says that when Jesus saw the crowds so confused and helpless he felt sorry for them. That is my heart for you. I will continue to pray for you man.

Your heart is yet perfected, leastofthese... And based on your above speaking, and other speaking to me on these various threads... I'm going to be bold and say that perhaps what you think is your heart caring for me is actually your heart caring for yourself.

Do you know what the only prayer that the Lord recieves is, leastofthese?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Drake

This is an obvious switch move on your part to counter what our brother Steel has said several times on this forum about pointing fingers at others and three pointing back at the person doing the pointing. Only you’ve doubled down with 6 fingers pointing back at Steel but that doesn’t negate or counter his main underlying point. It seems you are just trying to pin him in the same way you think he has pinned you without addressing the underlying point.

Drake

The Lord has had me speaking on online forums for some twenty years, Drake... I can see their foolishness coming a mile away.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...for calling out a frequent forum bully?

And there it is... Didn't take the Accuser long to stir someone up, did it.

[Steel]

Anyone know why we're told to set our eyes of Christ only?

Go take some time considering the above question in relation to Peter's experience when the Lord called him out of the boat to come to Him on the water.

What does the storm raging around Peter and the Lord represent?

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Steel

And when Jesus walked this earth there were all sorts of "right" and "wrong" matters all around Him... That He seemed to ignore... As He focused on His walk to the cross.

Steel, I can ignore your incorrect accusation to me. But when you said this, you were insulting Jesus and got your "scripture tells you" all wrong.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

Do you know what the only prayer that the Lord recieves is, leastofthese?

There are a number of verses I could point to that would answer this question. I'm sure you know which one is the right one

Brother Steel, I am a son of God, adopted by His grace through the blood of Jesus Christ - not by any work of my flesh. Adopted as a son, I am an heir of God - my Father hears my voice and answers my prayers. At times the Holy Spirit leads me to pray for specific things (even awakens me from my sleep to do so), sometimes I pray for what I feel like the Spirit leads me to... Sometimes I pray for desires of my flesh. But the Lord hears all my prayers. I have seen His steadfast love as He called me to Himself, I have seen many prayers answered - some miraculous, some mundane. My life is a testament to the fact that God receives my prayers man. I am so blessed it leaves me in awe. That others can see Christ in me and through me and my relationships is an honor that I don't think I even fully appreciate.

The thing is Steel - through Christ we all can come before Him and hold onto the truth that our Father gives good gifts to those who ask in faith. That is such an amazing truth! The best thing about serving the one and only living God, is that in fun times or difficult times, I still live to serve the God who made all things. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind - and love the people around you!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I do feel sad for you, more of a pity really (in a non-condescending type way).

leastofthese, these words you use themselves sound condescending... "sad".. "pity".

You might believe yourself to be better than Steel, as one feels pity for a poor starving African child on the television. It sounds like it.

Secondly, the fact that you have to tell someone that you will pray for them sounds condescending, when they did not ask for your prayer. In the local churches probably everyone is praying for everyone but you never know really because it's a right hand not knowing what the left is doing sort of thing.

If you want to genuinely pray for someone, you don't have to advertise it and show everyone how spiritual you are. Also, you don't have to tell them you are praying for them, and then how sad and pity you have for them.

On the other hand, if you want to pray for someone, then they might be humble enough to receive it, whether it is genuine prayer or not. Genuine prayer is when we pray "in the Lord". That is, we should pray whatever the Lord wants us to pray and not what we think we should pray based on perfect knowledge of everyone who we know so very well, acquired through an anonymous website.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If you want to genuinely pray for someone, you don't have to advertise it and show everyone how spiritual you are. Also, you don't have to tell them you are praying for them, and then how sad and pity you have for them.

On the other hand, if you want to pray for someone, then they might be humble enough to receive it, whether it is genuine prayer or not. Genuine prayer is when we pray "in the Lord". That is, you have to pray whatever the Lord wants you to pray and not what you think you should pray.

You're the second person that has made the comment that I should not declare my prayer or praying - maybe there is something there. When the comment was first made, I immediately thought of Paul, who writes to other believers and says that he is praying for them. Was Paul being genuine? Or trying to "advertise" everyone how spiritual he was?

I don't need someone to "receive" my prayer. I'm a little confused by what you mean there?

Maybe I shouldn't write about it in this forum, you could be right... but I assure you that I don't need you or anyone else to think of me as some spiritual guru. I do pray for people on this forum and will continue to.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

You're the second person that has made the comment that I should not declare my prayer or praying - maybe there is something there. When the comment was first made, I immediately thought of Paul, who writes to other believers and says that he is praying for them. Was Paul being genuine? Or trying to "advertise" everyone how spiritual he was?

I don't need someone to "receive" my prayer. I'm a little confused by what you mean there?

Maybe I shouldn't write about it in this forum, you could be right... but I assure you that I don't need you or anyone else to think of me as some spiritual guru. I do pray for people on this forum and will continue to.

It's not the declaration of prayer itself, it's how it sounded coupled with reference to Jesus feeling pity for the crowds, and you saying you were sad and pity for Steel. Maybe you are, but probably best not to say it, when Steel did not seem to need or want your sympathy. Whatever we pray for anyone, they have to receive it if it is to be answered. The bible says believe and receive.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Whatever we pray for anyone, they have to receive it if it is to be answered. The bible says believe and receive.

I thought believe and receive was Osteen? (Joking, I don't really even know anything about that guy)

You should start a thread on this position on prayer that you've shared, you could probably learn from some on this forum.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's not the declaration of prayer itself, it's how it sounded coupled with reference to Jesus feeling pity for the crowds, and you saying you were sad and pity for Steel. Maybe you are, but probably best not to say it, when Steel did not seem to need or want your sympathy. Whatever we pray for anyone, they have to receive it if it is to be answered. The bible says believe and receive.

Evangelical, you're sounding like liberals in America who now find it fashionable to feign this faux outrage when others say "my thoughts and prayers are with you."

You sure make things complicated.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I thought believe and receive was Osteen? (Joking, I don't really even know anything about that guy)

You should start a thread on this position on prayer that you've shared, you could probably learn from some on this forum.

If it's in reference to wealth then probably Osteen.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical, you're sounding like liberals in America who now find it fashionable to feign this faux outrage when others say "my thoughts and prayers are with you."

You sure make things complicated.

The sentence "my thoughts and prayers are with you" has surely become a matter of politeness rather than genuineness. In fact, I don't recall Jesus himself ever using such an expression. - "Jesus please heal me, I am a leper for 20 years" and Jesus , smiled and said "I am sad for you, I pity you, my thoughts and prayers are with you" , and walked off.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Steel on the Opening Post

I'm starting this thread in the hope that it helps us as a community come to better understand the matter of how we, as believers in Christ Jesus, follow something...
I don't follow a person, or a ministry, or anything else... I follow my mind... And it is the same for all of us. And because I've come to know this, over the years I have become more and more focused on what I allow my mind to receive, consider, and digest.

If possible, let's redirect back to the general theme of the opening post. There's been too much personal banter back and forth. Let's try our best to address the issue(s) at hand, and not the individual. If this is getting all too uninteresting, tedious and just plain ridiculous for me, who basically has no life outside this forum, then I know it has to be making the average viewer/lurker want to kick a hole in their computer screen, and delete this website address forever.

I have absolutely no doubt that Steel is being sincere when he says "I don't follow a person, or a ministry". Our friend Drake has stated something similar. The problem is, as I view it, is that the official, published position of the official leaders of the Local Church have plainly stated that LC members are, in fact, directed to follow a person and his ministry. Any plain and straight forward reading of The One Publication declaration leads any reasonable person to believe that this is what is expected, if not demanded from the producers of this declaration.

So, while there may be any number of views and understandings regarding "what exactly does a believer follow" among any number of current Local Church members, I'm not sure of the importance or even relevance to our discussions here. Unless of course some of the Blended Brothers would like to come and join us, and maybe clarify what they meant by many of the bold and ominous declarations in The One Publication.
-

[awareness]

What Exactly Does a Believer Follow?

"I ain't lookin' for nothin' in anyone's eyes" - Bob Dylan

If you look to men you're gonna be disappointed.