I've been reading for about 8 years

I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

Thanks for posting.

Your story is helpful to others, if you feel led to share it.

Yours is why I post. Helping others is a way to be helped myself.

The LC had many precious blessings from the Lord and many precious brothers and sisters. The leaders ruined what blessing we had. Plain and simple.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yours is why I post. Helping others is a way to be helped myself. . .

I mostly post to amuse myself. Then I feel bad when someone says, "Hey dude, not so fast". Then I post again and feel better.

Then, occasionally, and fitfully, and slowly, a shared consensus begins to emerge. That I really like. It really feels like I'm participating in a discussion. Mutually beneficial; everybody learns. It's not just a bunch of people writing past each other. Contrast that to Lee: when did he ever have a discussion with a fellow believer? I remember he said no one had taught him anything for 45 years.

That this discussion has blessed our readers is an encouraging 'amen' from God.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

I'm sure many of us felt it at one time or another. The LSM system does not embrace diverse thoughts or opinions. If they say just look at the emperor's new clothes, the opinion they want if for you to marvel and express how marvelous it is. If you are I think otherwise, the common thought is how come no one else sees what I see? Then self doubt comes in and the common feeling is something must be wrong with me. It's not the system that's wrong it's I that has the problem for not being unconditionally positive.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

I was there for the entire time last year and the first few months of this year.

While I was there at Christians at Campus I never thought them as being heathens. I knew they were born again Christians. Yet, like you, I thought there was something wrong with me. I never fit in. I would try, but I couldn't. I would try to say "Oh Lord Jesus!", but it always tasted like blasphemy.
Then at times I would see Facebook posts of them taking photos, or even making a video... but they never invited me to participate in this.

Don't get me wrong, they did a lot of trouble to try to see me. They would make time or pick me up at my flat for meetings during the week.

After a while I wondered whether or not I was missing something. Whether or not I was even saved.

This morning I sat on my favourite spot drinking coffee and reading 1 Samuel. While I read it I realised that this year I feel closer to God. I am more in Him than ever before. Still not nearly as much as I should be, but a lot more than I was while at CoC. Usually a person, especially a Christian, grows while things are going badly. Yet even though last year was the worst year of my life, I barely grew.

[OnHisPath]

The original comment on this thread is mine from my email to request membership. I was a bit surprised to see it had been posted here...but after being a long time reader I suppose it was what I needed to push me onto the forum.

I really am grateful to all of you who regularly participate here. Especially long-time consistent posters such as Ohio, Aron, Terry, OBW, Igzy, UntoHim- I probably shouldn't even mention individuals because so many of you have contributed so greatly. Not only have I felt a strong fellowship with you, but I've learned so much about faith, theology, etc., and have better learned to discern my own personal faith and belief.

I was saved as a young child and raised in a Christian home. I did not grow up in the "Recovery" but came into contact with the group during my high school years through my then boyfriend, eventual husband. Pressure was incredibly strong and destructive from my in-laws. I tried to buy in when I was younger, but it never sat well or rang completely true to me. Still, for years I wondered if I was willfully turning my back on God's purpose/economy/move on the earth. It's amazing to me how easily the hooks of these types of groups can embed themselves into one's psyche.

Thankfully, my husband had no interest in remaining in the Recovery and we haven't attended in many years. Besides the extreme judgement and negativity spoken of other Christians, even in the meetings, one of the final straws was witnessing the pray reading of Witness Lee's footnotes (as if they were equal to scripture) in multiple locations/states. I could no longer justify that it was just one extreme, dysfunctional locality, but that there were serious errors and dysfunctions with the system itself. We are involved in a church where we live, but for years it was hard not to judge other Christians based on Recovery standards. We are finally getting past that.

I chose OnHisPath as my user name because the Lord has always been faithful to lead me personally, and also my family, and keep us securely on His path for us. And praise the Lord it has nothing to do with our association with a specific and elite group.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

The original comment on this thread is mine from my email to request membership. I was a bit surprised to see it had been posted here...but after being a long time reader I suppose it was what I needed to push me onto the forum.

Yee ha! Thank you sis. I love it when a plan comes together!

-

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Yee ha! Thank you sis. I love it when a plan comes together!

UntoHim, you have impressive moderating/mastermind skills . Really though, I'm thankful for the push. After 8 years of "lurking" who knows if I ever would have let my voice be heard. Y'all have so many smart things to say, but I'm glad to be a part of the conversation.

[UntoHim]

Check is in the mail....and we pay extra for sisters around here....as you have probably gathered already, brothers "in their mind" are a dime-a-dozen around this place.

-

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

The only "crazy" ones are those who believe the Bride is only composed of the very narrow sect known as the lords recovery.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Thankfully, my husband had no interest in remaining in the Recovery and we haven't attended in many years. Besides the extreme judgement and negativity spoken of other Christians, even in the meetings, one of the final straws was witnessing the pray reading of Witness Lee's footnotes (as if they were equal to scripture) in multiple locations/states. I could no longer justify that it was just one extreme, dysfunctional locality, but that there were serious errors and dysfunctions with the system itself. We are involved in a church where we live, but for years it was hard not to judge other Christians based on Recovery standards. We are finally getting past that.

When I left the LC about ten years ago, I became keenly aware of how abusive the program and its leaders were towards their members. I saw this on all levels, finally concluding that there were serious systemic issues. This saying kept ringing in my ears, "this program produces bullies out of beloved brothers."

Like you, we are all recovering "judgaholics." Sometimes posting on this forum with current LC members I suffer a relapse.

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by HERn

The only "crazy" ones are those who believe the Bride is only composed of the very narrow sect known as the lords recovery.

I agree with you, HERn. I remember some time ago when a group of Egyptian Coptic Christians were beheaded by Isis in a message to the "nation of the cross". I wondered how the LC could dare to have such an elite, narrow view of the bride as they saw events such as this happening around the world. I think someone on this forum pointed it out at the time and I was struck freshly with the hypocrisy and pride of the LC.

[Evangelical]

I don't recall the Bible saying that the Bride would be Egyptian Coptics, or anyone other than just Christians.

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I left the LC about ten years ago, I became keenly aware of how abusive the program and its leaders were towards their members. I saw this on all levels, finally concluding that there were serious systemic issues. This saying kept ringing in my ears, "the program produces bullies out of beloved brothers."
Like you, we are all recovering "judgaholics." Sometimes posting on this forum with current LC members I suffer a relapse.

Ohio, the experiences you've shared here have given me evidence to go along with my misgivings about the LC. I saw a lot of ministry serving behavior (at the expense of individuals) displayed, but I initially found this forum after hearing about the rift in the Midwest and taking to google. I remember being so shocked, and also feeling a bit vindicated that all the hypocrisy and oppression I "felt" from the ministry was indeed manifest. Almost as shocking was the way it was kept quiet and hushed in most other parts of the country. Anything to cover the "brothers".

Like you, I have to guard against my natural propensity for judgement and bitterness being turned on members of the LC.

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't recall the Bible saying that the Bride would be Egyptian Coptics, or anyone other than just Christians.

That is exactly my point, Evangelical. I understand that I may have experienced the LC in localities with individuals who tend to extremes or misconstrue Witness Lee's teachings, but I have been told that no one outside of the LC could be a true Christian.

[Evangelical]

That's bad..even Lee did not believe that. I always keep in mind that a certain percentage of church members are psychopaths or sociopaths, cult followers, or wolves in sheep's clothing. We've had problems with cults (real cults, that is) before.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't recall the Bible saying that the Bride would be Egyptian Coptics, or anyone other than just Christians.

Who cares about names but you? LSM has a bazilion non-scriptural names and websites, but you can sweep all these under the rug.
These ones in Egypt were beheaded for believing in the Son of God. Our Heavenly Father only sees them as beloved children. A new name is written on their foreheads.
Let's see if your faith is anywhere close to these martyrs. I highly doubt it, since LSM will file a lawsuit if you look at them cross-eyed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Ohio, the experiences you've shared here have given me evidence to go along with my misgivings about the LC. I saw a lot of ministry serving behavior (at the expense of individuals) displayed, but I initially found this forum after hearing about the rift in the Midwest and taking to google. I remember being so shocked, and also feeling a bit vindicated that all the hypocrisy and oppression I "felt" from the ministry was indeed manifest. Almost as shocking was the way it was kept quiet and hushed in most other parts of the country. Anything to cover the "brothers".
Like you, I have to guard against my natural propensity for judgement and bitterness being turned on members of the LC.

I always distinguish between the lovely saints I knew and the rottenness of the LC/LSM leaders.

For example, I migrated to start up two new churches with other saints, only to later watch them hurt and damaged by manipulations from outsiders. In both cases there was a battle between headquarters in Cleveland and Anaheim over who had the "rights" to draft our ministering elders. So much for our so-called liberty to follow the Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I always keep in mind that a certain percentage of church members are psychopaths or sociopaths, cult followers, or wolves in sheep's clothing. We've had problems with cults (real cults, that is) before.

This is absolutely pathetic, especially in reference to those martyrs beheaded by terrorists.

How can you talk about LC members in this way?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who cares about names but you? LSM has a bazilion non-scriptural names and websites, but you can sweep all these under the rug.
These ones in Egypt were beheaded for believing in the Son of God. Our Heavenly Father only sees them as beloved children. A new name is written on their foreheads.
Let's see if your faith is anywhere close to these martyrs. I highly doubt it, since LSM will file a lawsuit if you look at them cross-eyed.

God cares about names. That's why He gives people new names... the Bible says a lot about names.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is absolutely pathetic, especially in reference to those martyrs beheaded by terrorists.
How can you talk about LC members in this way?

Just stating the facts. Any church, even a denomination, will have a proportion of members who satisfy those categories. Certain denominations have a large proportion of free-masons, and other secret societies who worship Satan, in many cases even the pastor or priest is one.

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's bad..even Lee did not believe that. I always keep in mind that a certain percentage of church members are psychopaths or sociopaths, cult followers, or wolves in sheep's clothing. We've had problems with cults (real cults, that is) before.

I agree with you here. In any group of people, even congregations of believers, you may have a percentage of people with personality/mental health disorders or who participate with false motives. In fact, the one person associated with the LC who has hurt me the most, clearly has some mental health struggles that contributed to a very oppressive dynamic in dealing with other people. However, in experiencing this behavior it helped me to see the thread of dysfunction in the LC system itself, rather than excusing it as one person's poor behavior.

I do not think, if asked directly, Witness Lee would have ever said that those outside of the LC cannot be true Christians (same is true for most LC members). However, the informal speaking, and even testimony during meetings that I witnessed many times, clearly highlighted the dysfunctional group dynamics of a religious system that thrived on an "us against them" mentality. To me, this is true division. Not a sign on the outside of a building. It is the cultural dynamics of the LC that foster a, possibly inadvertant, divisive spirit among some people. We know that God looks at the heart, and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". The divisive speaking against other Christians is a real problem.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

I do not think, if asked directly, Witness Lee would have ever said that those outside of the LC cannot be true Christians (same is true for most LC members). However, the informal speaking, and even testimony during meetings that I witnessed many times, clearly highlighted the dysfunctional group dynamics of a religious system that thrived on an "us against them" mentality. To me, this is true division. Not a sign on the outside of a building. It is the cultural dynamics of the LC that foster a, possibly inadvertant, divisive spirit among some people. We know that God looks at the heart, and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". The divisive speaking against other Christians is a real problem.

Great points.

Witness Lee loved to compare the best of the Recovery with the worst of Christianity, as if it were a valid comparison, placing them in the balances for us to choose. This distorted montage only worked when LC members never ventured out of doors.

Paul speaks of those who "make" divisions or who are "actively" aligning themselves with only one minister, even if it was Paul himself. This was Lee to a tee. He was constantly sowing distinctions, highlighting differences, comparing and contrasting his little movement with the whole body of Christ.

Perhaps the motive was simple -- it covered for corruption. After years in the Recovery, I believed that Lee and his ministry were as pure as the driven snow. That's what he told us, and no one around me said anything to the contrary. As long as he could keep a lid on the flow of information, things worked great. Then that evil internet came along ...

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

I agree with you here. In any group of people, even congregations of believers, you may have a percentage of people with personality/mental health disorders or who participate with false motives. In fact, the one person associated with the LC who has hurt me the most, clearly has some mental health struggles that contributed to a very oppressive dynamic in dealing with other people. However, in experiencing this behavior it helped me to see the thread of dysfunction in the LC system itself, rather than excusing it as one person's poor behavior.

I do not think, if asked directly, Witness Lee would have ever said that those outside of the LC cannot be true Christians (same is true for most LC members). However, the informal speaking, and even testimony during meetings that I witnessed many times, clearly highlighted the dysfunctional group dynamics of a religious system that thrived on an "us against them" mentality. To me, this is true division. Not a sign on the outside of a building. It is the cultural dynamics of the LC that foster a, possibly inadvertant, divisive spirit among some people. We know that God looks at the heart, and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". The divisive speaking against other Christians is a real problem.

By your logic, then Christ as a Jew was being divisive because He constantly spoke against the Pharisees, also Jews. I agree it is division, but it's a right division. An environment that cultivates a divisive spirit is not good, we try not to do that by focussing on Christ. When our focus is taken away from Christ we may see the differences. To be honest I see no difference between myself and another Christian, on a personal level. I/we do not even ask to what denomination a person belongs, as that is also divisive. They are "Christians who attend such and such denomination". But on an organizational/structural level (when I see A Christian bowing before Mary's idol for example), I see a world of difference from which I must separate.

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

By your logic, then Christ as a Jew was being divisive because He constantly spoke against the Pharisees, also Jews. I agree it is division, but it's a right division. An environment that cultivates a divisive spirit is not good, we try not to do that by focussing on Christ. When our focus is taken away from Christ we may see the differences. To be honest I see no difference between myself and another Christian, on a personal level. I/we do not even ask to what denomination a person belongs, as that is also divisive. They are "Christians who attend such and such denomination". But on an organizational/structural level (when I see A Christian bowing before Mary's idol for example), I see a world of difference from which I must separate.

Nope, that's not where my logic leads at all. Christ spoke against those who were self-righteous, prideful and trusted in their own works to save themselves while disdaining others. Many Pharisees were in this camp. But it wasn't the name "Pharisee" that was at issue. It was the state of their heart and their unbelief. Remember, some Pharisees did believe.

My logic is illustrated in Luke 18 when the Pharisee and tax collector prayed very different prayers, and only one went home justified.

As Christians, we should all be begging God to be merciful to us, not pointing out the way everyone else sins and the way we believe we are "right" or even "ordained". As a Christian, I am one with the Christ in every other believer, no matter how nominally or incorrectly I believe they practice their faith. I don't have to agree with their practice, or copy their practice, or even participate in their practice at all. But I don't judge where the Lord has led them up to this point in their lives. When it's clear that they indeed have Christ in them, we are one. I am not Catholic and I wouldn't bow to a statue of Mary, but I am one with Catholic believers who trust in Christ.

Why do you think asking what denomination someone attends is divisive? I love finding out where others fellowship and attend church. But I'm coming from a viewpoint that we are already one. Maybe that's the difference.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Nope, that's not where my logic leads at all. Christ spoke against those who were self-righteous, prideful and trusted in their own works to save themselves while disdaining others. Many Pharisees were in this camp. But it wasn't the name "Pharisee" that was at issue. It was the state of their heart and their unbelief. Remember, some Pharisees did believe.

My logic is illustrated in Luke 18 when the Pharisee and tax collector prayed very different prayers, and only one went home justified.

As Christians, we should all be begging God to be merciful to us, not pointing out the way everyone else sins and the way we believe we are "right" or even "ordained". As a Christian, I am one with the Christ in every other believer, no matter how nominally or incorrectly I believe they practice their faith. I don't have to agree with their practice, or copy their practice, or even participate in their practice at all. But I don't judge where the Lord has led them up to this point in their lives. When it's clear that they indeed have Christ in them, we are one. I am not Catholic and I wouldn't bow to a statue of Mary, but I am one with Catholic believers who trust in Christ.

Why do you think asking what denomination someone attends is divisive? I love finding out where others fellowship and attend church. But I'm coming from a viewpoint that we are already one. Maybe that's the difference.

But you are not one with the Catholic in practice, because they would never take communion with you unless it was in the Catholic mass, and they would never take mass in your home for example, without a Catholic priest. So your idea of oneness is a fantasy that cannot be realized in practice unless they remove themselves from the Catholic church, unless they remove themselves from that degraded system. I am not talking about the spiritual truths but the practical reality.

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

But you are not one with the Catholic in practice, because they would never take communion with you unless it was in the Catholic mass, and they would never take mass in your home for example, without a Catholic priest. So your idea of oneness is a fantasy that cannot be realized in practice unless they remove themselves from the Catholic church, unless they remove themselves from that degraded system. I am not talking about the spiritual truths but the practical reality.

Right, I am not one with the Catholic in practice. But I am one with them in Christ. I think that supersedes practice. I believe that spiritual truths are greater than practical reality on this earth. One day, practical reality will perfectly match spiritual truth. For now, we cling to Christ. He is the truth that unites us. "...while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Corthinians 4:18 Our practice is what can be seen now, and none of us are perfect or pure in our practice. Praise the Lord, He is the eternal one and our true eternal life.

In the thread, "Do you think Christianity is degraded?" You posted this:
"The genuine church is founded not on doctrine nor practice, but is...founded on the person of Christ Jesus himself." This is the point I'm trying to make. And it's so encouraging for me to see that ultimately we agree! Whoever has Christ is one and is the church. If someone is practicing more perfectly than me, but doesn't truly have Christ, there is nothing for me to be one with. I don't care about being one in practice. I want oneness in Christ because that is what He wants.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Right, I am not one with the Catholic in practice. But I am one with them in Christ. I think that supersedes practice. I believe that spiritual truths are greater than practical reality on this earth. One day, practical reality will perfectly match spiritual truth. For now, we cling to Christ. He is the truth that unites us. "...while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Corthinians 4:18 Our practice is what can be seen now, and none of us are perfect or pure in our practice. Praise the Lord, He is the eternal one and our true eternal life.

In the thread, "Do you think Christianity is degraded?" You posted this:
"The genuine church is founded not on doctrine nor practice, but is...founded on the person of Christ Jesus himself." This is the point I'm trying to make. And it's so encouraging for me to see that ultimately we agree! Whoever has Christ is one and is the church. If someone is practicing more perfectly than me, but doesn't truly have Christ, there is nothing for me to be one with. I don't care about being one in practice. I want oneness in Christ because that is what He wants.

Right... that's why I don't like asking people which church they attend because that is a divisive question.

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Right... that's why I don't like asking people which church they attend because that is a divisive question.

I don't understand this. If you are already one with them, in Christ, it could never be a divisive question. It feels to me like we believe the same kernel of truth, but you insist on holding onto some extra little matter that makes the truth null and void.

Regardless, I really appreciate you commenting on my thoughts and helping me to engage in this conversation. It's a good exercise.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Right... that's why I don't like asking people which church they attend because that is a divisive question.

But it's OK to ask what church they are from in the LC's?

How is that any different? So, you say it's only geography.

But when brothers and sisters in the trainings from the GLA expressed divergent views, they would be dismissed as "being with Titus."

How is that any different from being dismissed for being a Baptist, or from the Church of Christ, or a community church?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

I don't understand this. If you are already one with them, in Christ, it could never be a divisive question. It feels to me like we believe the same kernel of truth, but you insist on holding onto some extra little matter that makes the truth null and void.

Regardless, I really appreciate you commenting on my thoughts and helping me to engage in this conversation. It's a good exercise.

My response addresses Ohio's remarks as well:

If you truly believed that you were one with them, you could or would not ask them that question. The concept of "my church" and "your church" is contrary to the belief that you profess. It is like saying, "I believe my brother in the flesh is part of my family, but I will ask him of which family he belongs". If they are one with you in Christ, then they are in the same church as you are.

[OnHisPath]

I usually ask something along the lines of, "Where do you fellowship?" My church/your church is not language I would typically use. It is impossible to fellowship with all believers on the earth, so asking someone where they do fellowship isn't incongruous with my beliefs at all. And I'm never offended that people fellowship someplace other than me that also has a name. We are one regardless. No big deal unless I want to make it a matter of division in my heart.

Your example of family is perfectly acceptable when you consider the sheer number of believers on the earth and that we are spread apart by country and continent. In fact, the definition of a clan as a group of close-knit and interrelated families, and secondly, a group of people with a strong common interest would provide a very good picture of people who are "one" or related, but might ask which family they belong to.

[Evangelical]

Agree that is a much better question to ask. Thankyou for your sharing, great discussion.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Terry

I'm sure many of us felt it at one time or another. The LSM system does not embrace diverse thoughts or opinions. If they say just look at the emperor's new clothes, the opinion they want if for you to marvel and express how marvelous it is. If you are I think otherwise, the common thought is how come no one else sees what I see? Then self doubt comes in and the common feeling is something must be wrong with me. It's not the system that's wrong it's I that has the problem for not being unconditionally positive.

Old post, great point. I pray that current members in the LC reading this can overcome any self doubt or fear of man that is holding them captive.

Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts the Lord is safe.