Gleanings From The Past Posts

[testallthings]

If you think something on this forum is worth repeating (EVERYTHING!!, I hear) please use this space. Just copy and paste your favorite posts (or maybe few sentences) down below.
I'll start (and if no administrator is against it, you can continue).

Originally Posted by djohnson

A voice Norm. Just a voice. Welcome to the non-LCS world - where you won't hear amen after ever sentence you utter!

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I was born to rant. I had so many good diatribes at lunch during my 33 years of teaching that I started numbering them. "Wanna hear #623 today?" I'd ask and before anyone had the presence of mind to object, off we'd go.

Three years ago my wife and I visited London. Speakers Corner was on our list of things to do. It's at a corner of Hyde Park, a huge park in London, and it's open to all. People get out there soapboxes and stepstools, stand up and rant.

Hecklers abound. The Christian ranters (there were several that day) attract a lot of them. The Muslim ranters not so much ... mainly because nobody wants to get a Muslim ranter really riled up, I suppose.

One Christian was a former Texan who had emigrated to London to save the godless Brits. He wore a cowboy outfit with stars running down the sleeves and pantlegs. Embroidered on his sleeves were the words, "Jesus Is Lord."

This guy could've taught all of us a thing or two in how to take on opposition. It was a beautiful thing. A couple college age American tourists, females, were outraged by his statements that Jesus is the only way to God. They challenged him with their mush logic. Zip, zap, zing! ... they were drawn and quartered before their clacking tongues hit the pavement.

I yearned to climb up on one of the stools and have at it. But I was too chicken, even when invited. I have lived long enough to realize that this skill as any skill takes practice to master. And courage.

I doubt many lives are changed by Speakers Corner. But I know some are. To enter the arena of debate and have your words handed back to you like sliced cucumbers on a platter, well, that stings. And most people, after being stung, go back and think about the encounter. Of course, most of that thinking is rationalization and after-brilliance and self-justification, but sometimes a seed gets in.

Much as I love debate I have sadly come to realize it doesn't work in many settings. Feelings get hurt, tempers flare, words get said that cause lasting damage. I'll not soon forget the great Global Warming Debate that took place at around midnight in my family room a couple years ago. I was all "read up" on the subject and ready for bear. Unfortunately, my foe -- a couple in-laws -- were equally "read up" but on the other side. Nobody convinced anybody of anything that night but I fear I took the greater hit because I'm pretty sure we raised the earth's temperature a degree or two. (Though, it must be admitted, the next day there was a decided "cooling" in the air.)

I have tried, somewhat unsuccessfully, to swear off debating in friendly settings simply because I want to keep my friends. But in places like Speakers Corner -- or here -- let the verbal epees flick. Though much of the jousting is pointless, self-justifying, and weak on logic, the back and forth does make a difference if for none other than you yourself. You learn the limits of your skill, logic, and position.

And a humbler man is a better man.

.................................................. .................................................. .............................

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by testallthings

Speakers Corner was on our list of things to do. It's at a corner of Hyde Park, a huge park in London, and it's open to all. People get out there soapboxes and stepstools, stand up and rant.

This experience reminded me of Paul at Mars Hill:

"While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was deeply troubled by all the idols he saw everywhere in the city. He went to the synagogue to reason with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and he spoke daily in the public square to all who happened to be there.

He also had a debate with some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. When he told them about Jesus and his resurrection, they said, “What’s this babbler trying to say with these strange ideas he’s picked up?” Others said, “He seems to be preaching about some foreign gods.”

Paul had his own 'Speakers Corner' for

(It should be explained that all the Athenians as well as the foreigners in Athens seemed to spend all their time discussing the latest ideas.) Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands;.......

Originally Posted by testallthings

Hecklers abound. The Christian ranters (there were several that day) attract a lot of them. The Muslim ranters not so much ... mainly because nobody wants to get a Muslim ranter really riled up, I suppose.

yeah... nobody wants their head on the chopping block!

originally posted by Speakers Corner:

I'll not soon forget the great Global Warming Debate that took place at around midnight in my family room a couple years ago. I was all "read up" on the subject and ready for bear.

While Global warming seems to be the hot topic of the day, I think the Mastermind of Global warming is none other than God Himself. I recently saw this Truth in Revelation 7 where God says: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

[testallthings]

Abraham humbly and meekly received Abimelech's rebuke

Originally Posted by kisstheson

. . .

2) I really appreciate your comments regarding Abraham at the end of your post. I have been spending a lot of time lately considering the encounter between Abraham and king Abimelech recorded in Genesis chapter 20. This episode occurred right after God's judgement on Sodom and the other sinful cities for their sexual perverseness. Despite what Abraham had just seen God do to Sodom, Abraham was such a coward that in order to save his own skin he was willing for Sarah to engage in adultery with king Abimelech! Praise the Lord for His timely intervention in this matter!

The fact that Abraham readily confessed and admitted his mistake when he was quite soundly rebuked by Abimelech touches me very deeply. After receiving such a sharp (and well-deserved) rebuke, consider what Abraham did not do: No declaring of Abimelech to be a "rebel", "an opposer", "a leper", etc. No pamphlets denouncing Abimelech. No quarantine. On the contrary, Abraham confessed his mistake and a sweet fellowship between Abraham and Abimelech was established. Look at everything Abimelech gave to Abraham in Genesis 20, and look at how generously Abraham gave to Abimelech in Genesis 21! Look at how sweetly the two of them worked out the problem of the disputed wells in Genesis 21. All this sweet fellowshp arose because Abraham humbly and meekly received Abimelech's rebuke.

When Abraham was confessing his cowardice to Abimelech, he said something very interesting: "Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place; and they will kill me because of my wife." Abraham was surprised that there was indeed a fear of God amongst Abimelech and his people. Yes, Sodom and the surrounding cities had no fear of God, but over in Abimelech's lands, there was a fear of God. Abraham had too quickly judged all the peoples of Canaan. This is quite sobering and really helps me to not "paint with too broad a brush". How can we be so proud when others who truly love the Lord, perhaps more than we do, can be found in even the unlikeliest of places? There are lots of Abimelechs and Melchisedecs out there! May we be willing to receive them according to Christ and according to God.

from the blog:Rants from Speakers Corner

[testallthings]

OBEYING THE FIRST TWO COMMANDMENTS IS THE KEY

Originally Posted by Igzy

Guys, I wasn't an LC kid. But I did join the LC when I was 19. I left in my late 20s. I didn't get married until I was 44. Now I have a beautiful family and many good friends. It just takes time to get normalized. But it can happen. I'm living proof.

But don't make the mistake of just running and trying to bury the past. That won't work. You can exist that way, but you can't really live. The strongholds have to be smashed, and they are spiritual in nature.

What got me through, eventually, was God. That's the odd thing about all this. The LC is supposed to be all about God. But if it was, why do the people who leave seem to need to start from scratch to get to know the Lord? The answer is they didn't know him in the LC, not really anyway. They just had a religion, a very insidious, mind-controlling religion.

As I've said before, you have to learn to pray. You have to genuinely get to know God and rely on him. That's what eventually breaks down the mental strongholds and sets you free. As they say, the best way out is through. And the best way through is prayer.

Relationships turn out to be pretty simple, too. Just love people. Don't think about yourself first. Treat people with genuine appreciation as God does. Learn how to let them shine. You'll then begin to notice that people actually like you and like being around you. But you'll also realize it isn't about you, and never was. It's just that a little of the glory rubs off on you as you serve people God's way.

So, surprise!, it turns out that obeying the first two commandments is very powerful and key. Love God and love people. It's no more complicated than that. Then you'll begin to enjoy that the kingdom of God is everywhere, because you are bringing it with you.

from:*Lurkers Only*: Now's Your Chance

[testallthings]

MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.

Originally Posted by Ohio

An old LC friend of mine, whom I was with last weekend, recently did a study in the N.T. on MONEY.

This was the conclusion of his exhaustive study -- Every single time MONEY is mentioned, the instruction is to "give to the poor." Let me repeat for those hard of reading: Give to the poor!

And for anyone out there who thinks that the Recovery still has "Christianity Baggage" from past generations, let me politely inform you that the Recovery, and specifically the LSM, has as much or even more "Christianity Baggage" than the rest of Christianity.

Local Church Discussions > Practice What He Preached? > Christianity Baggage

[testallthings]

SHEPHERDING THE POOR

Originally Posted by aron

I was in a meeting of the FTTA where a trainee asked about shepherding the poor. The trainer said, "Don't waste your time." He said to go for "good building material." I protested. I said that Jesus talked about inviting those who could not repay you to the feast. The trainer ignored my comments and the meeting continued. It was as if I'd never spoken.

So what kind of group can fixate on "exercise your spirit" and ignore verses like "they told me to remember the poor, which I was eager to do" (Gal. 2:10)? They say that they are "closely following the apostle (Paul) yet they ignore Paul's words that are not convenient to their philosophy. The greatest commandment, given by Jesus, to love one another is nothing compared to building up the organization.

This probably shows that the "oracle" has supplanted God's word. If the Maximum Leader says that a scripture is 'natural' or 'fallen', then they ignore it. And other concepts derived from the Word become the new "speaking from God." And thus you have the plain words of the scripture being ignored or even spoken against, while the "interpreted word" reigns supreme.

Local Church Discussions > Apologetic discussions
The Asian mind and the Western mind

[testallthings]

What The Gospel Means to Me

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The secular world has a saying " the gospel truth". Yes, even the world knows it's true, even more importantly they know it's the highest truth. Other things and other events may be true, but no other truth means so much or has affected the course of history so much. No matter how much this truth is discounted by the lost men of this world, or corrupted by well meaning (and almost as lost) religionists, this truth stands alone at the top of the mountain of all truths. Even all the other truths revealed in the Word of God must take a subordinate position to this truth, for if The Gospel is not true then every other so-called truth means nothing. I think the apostle Paul was trying to get this point across to the Corinthians when he wrote "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." Wow Paul, you mean if this one thing, this one truth is not true, then our faith is worthless? What about all those other wonderful, deep and lofty truths you taught about?

The most amazing thing about the gospel is that it is a truth only for us humans. All the principalities and powers, and even the angles have to sit back and watch in wonder and amazement. Regarding this phenomenon the apostle Peter wrote: "It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look" I would think the angels would want to look into all sorts of things, like the creation of the heavens and earth, but what they really want to know about is this Gospel, this truth. Why would the God of the universe come to these "lower" creatures, stepping down to their lower level? Apparently 1/3rd of the angels rebelled and fell along with Satan, but what about these lower creatures, it seems that they all rebelled, they all fell. As far as we know, those fallen angels do not get a second chance, but will be thrown into the abyss with Satan, but we earthly creatures get a second chance. This is The Gospel, and this is the highest truth revealed in the Word of God. As far as we humans are concerned there is nothing positive without this gospel. There is no redemption, no salvation, no transformation. There is no church, no kingdom, no resurrection and no heaven.

Witness Lee was not the first one to come tickling people's ears with a "higher gospel", and he will certainly not be the last, but for the purposes of this forum we can and should discuss his "higher" gospel. Over the years on these forums there has been a lot of heated discussions on whether or not Lee preached "another gospel", and even "another Jesus". As one who heard hundreds and hundreds of Lee's messages, I find any contention regarding these matters almost amusing. Of course Lee preached another gospel, for he practically came right out and said as much - in so many words. Actually Lee's gospel is not so much another gospel as it is an additional gospel, but the affect it has on those who imbibe it is the very same as if it were another gospel. As for "another Jesus", well in my experience and observation over the years, anybody who preaches another gospel IS preaching another Jesus. Another gospel IS another Jesus. I have much to say regarding this but won't ramble on further here, except to give all thanks and praise to the Lord that I am being delivered from another gospel and am returning to "the simplicity which is in Christ". I've got a long way to go but at least I feel I'm heading in the right direction.

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This is the balled of a cross and a crown
and the man who was so punished
though no fault in him was found
The scoffers would mocked him
even his own would flee
Still with his last breath
"Father forgive" was his plea

This is the balled of a cross and a crown
and the man who dreaded the first
then in the garden fell down
For He knew his Father
and he knew his good will
So he stood in our place
He stands as our Advocate still

This is the balled of a cross and a crown
and the man who suffered and died
for all the sinners he found
Seeking them first
and then he would save
Then the lost that he found
became the gifts that he gave

This is the balled of a cross and a crown
and those who must pick up their own
and come follow him now
For a cross must come first
only then comes reward
along with the cherished
"well done" from our Lord

from: Local Church Discussions > To God Be The Glory! > What The Gospel Means to Me

[testallthings]

IS THE MESSAGE OR THE MEN?

Originally Posted by Igzy

Those of us who have left the Local Church Movement have looked back in wonder at our experiences and what they meant. Trying to sort out what the lesson is, we observe the ongoing Local Church movement, and two basic characteristics, existing in tension, come into focus:

1. The movement thinks its positive legacy is of paramount importance.
2. The movement thinks that the defense of its founders, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, is essential to this legacy.

In other words, the movement thinks beyond any doubt that many of the spiritual principles they uphold, which they see as neglected in other Christian groups, are absolutely crucial to God achieving what he desires to achieve. Thus they see themselves as stewards of these things. (Some examples are: locality, God's economy, various "high peak" teachings, the principle of Recovery and unity with the move of Recovery). It is not important to this discussion that you agree with those principles. It is important to understand that the mission of the Church always includes spreading principles. And so, the LC is not wrong for doing that. Whether those principles are valid or not is something that gets worked out in the arena of ideas.

The problem is, the LC for some reason also feels that the defense of Nee and Lee is essential to carrying out their mission. Probably if pressed they would not want to admit that protecting Nee's and Lee's reputations is part of their mission. Yet, clearly from their behavior they feel they cannot carry out their mission of preserving the principles unique to their movement without also preserving as pristine the reputations of their founders.

The question I have is, Why do they feel this way? If Nee and Lee were onto some things, and I still believe in certain cases they were, then those ostensive truths should stand on their own. They should not be dependent on the reputation of the men who communicated them. Clearly, our failure as servants can blunt the reception of even the most legitimate messages God gives us. Yet, our failures never invalidate those messages. So preserving a myth about a movement founder, even and especially for the sake of protecting the message he declared, is in the end counter to the mission of preserving any legitimate message. Dealing in lies to preserve the truth is a house divided against itself.

The fact is, God did not spare the reputations of his greatest servants. We see clearly the warts of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Paul and Peter, to name some. God did not think he needed to present these men as pristine in order to preserve the incredibly important messages and missions he wished to convey and accomplish through them. Interestingly, the LC cites Noah as an example of the consequences of exposing the sin of a leader, as Noah's son Ham was cursed for doing. Yet apparently this principle was lost on Moses, who when he wrote Genesis included the account, thus exposing Noah! Personally, I think God lets every servant of his fail, to underscore that the important thing is the message, not the men.

There is nothing wrong with trying to preserve and pass along spiritual principles you think are important. We all should do this. And the Local Church is not wrong for doing it either. But that leads to the question, with LCers, is it really about the message, about passing on real spiritual truths from God to the rest of the Church; or is it about preserving the reputations of men, of Nee and Lee? And if the latter, why? As God himself has shown us, he is more than willing to let the facts be the facts, and allow the historic failure of his servants be known. His truth is not dependent on our reputations. It stands on its own. And dealing in lies and myths to preserve reputations is in fact just one more delay to his truth prevailing.

The truth stands. Men come and go. The Bible understands this. It's time the LC did, too--ironically, for the sake of their own message.

From: Local Church Discussions > Practice What He Preached?\Is it the Message, or the Men?

[HERn]

Thanks for all the reading you had to do to find this quote. If it is the message and truth that changes lives why be so defensive re: your founders, unless your founder needs MOTA or oracle status to make his heterodoxy receivable?

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Truth

Watchman Nee lived through a really chaotic period in China. It is a time period where no one can tell what was truth and what are lies.

I find this funny and fully of irony. The Chinese Communists are like a double-edged sword.

If Nee committed these so-called sins, then he got really lucky, because most people today think that his sins were fabricated by the Communists. In other words, the Communists indirectly "shielded" his sins so that there is no way for us to know today. They are like scapegoats. Whenever anyone mentions this matter, someone else will just say "that's the Communists...Nee never did that"

One the other hand, if Nee did not commit these sins, then he was very unfortunately to have to bear such accusations and shame. He lost his face, experienced Christ through the cross, and has become a real martyr.

from: Local Church Discussions > If you really Nee to know > My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr. Hsu

[testallthings]

MY GOD

Originally Posted by awareness

Cuz I can't describe my God. I only sense Him, and trust from there, in spite of my unknowing.
We are tossed and driven
on the restless sea of time;
somber skies and howling tempests
oft succeed a bright sunshine;
in that land of perfect day,
when the mists are rolled away,
we will understand it better by and by.

By and by, when the morning comes,
when the saints of God are gathered home,
we'll tell the story how we've overcome,
for we'll understand it better by and by

[testallthings]

Good Lee/Bad Lee: Can they be separated?

Originally Posted by OBW

Cassidy,

You are correct that it is entirely everyone's personal right to take all, most, some, little, or none of Lee. But the concern is that if there truly are problems intertwined in the good, then are we to presume that those who see (or think they see) it simply keep quiet?

I'm not suggesting that you do or don't see it. Or that you do or don't agree. I'm not talking about you. Just the discussion about having this discussion.

But just as those who want to take it all have the right to take everything Lee said without a second thought, do others who think there is a legitimate reason to be concerned about that have no right to speak out?

It is almost the worst kind of postmodern "it's right for me" approach to claim that everyone can think what they want, but they should simply keep it to themselves — except for me because mine is not only right for me, but for you too.

I know that it is possible to assert that I/we are just doing that when we speak out against Lee. But we don't start with the presumption that we are simply right and only those who agree should speak. We think that there are legitimate cases to be made from scripture, so we make them. If someone can make the counter argument successfully, then we have reason to reconsider. Most of us got here by doing exactly that. We began to take in legitimate spiritual/scriptural data not pre/re-arranged by Nee, Lee, and the BBs/LSM and determined that the direct sources did not always agree with Lee. For some of us, we concluded that there was good reason to even get our good teachings somewhere else.

My take is that there is too much of a "package deal" in Lee's teachings to presume that hardly anyone will not either accept it all (at some level) or reject him altogether. He makes each piece fit with the next piece that ultimately brings the whole dispensing, ground, MOTA, Spiritual Authority thing to bear.

It is very difficult to cherry-pick Lee. It's not obviously good and bad fruit hanging in open view on a tree. It is a grey mixture of things mixed together in a lump of dough, a pot of thrice-reheated lentil soup, or stew. I will show my true colors and conclude that if you can find a clean, isolated, good teaching (meaning that two paragraphs later it is not altered beyond recognition) it is like an effort in dumpster diving. A needle in a haystack. It is so seldom that neatly separated from the junk and therefore even the good becomes questionable once the message is over.

When I read people that generate that kind of junk, I do it for something much less important that my primary theology and doctrines. It might be like taking the IRS position on something (contrary to what you think is correct) just to be sure that you have thought of everything. That is the highest place I give Lee. A source of alternate thought to at least consider rather than simply rejecting without a thought. Like Lee says to do with his teachings — accept them without a critical thought.

from: Local Church Discussions > Early Lee - Later Lee - The man, the mission and the myth > Good Lee/Bad Lee: Can they be separated?

[testallthings]

"God in life and nature but not in the Godhead"

QUOTE=Igzy;45064]You know what's bizarre about all this? Do you think there is any other group of Christians in the world who sit around and wonder and debate and fret over whether there is anything to the idea that man will "become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead"?

Probably not. Healthy Christians are looking for ways to know God better and to live more according to his will, to go about their lives in ways that their behavior (as opposed to their "being", whatever a "being" is) pleases God.

There is something seriously demented about being so hung up on these things, assuming your interest is anything but academic. Why do we do it? It's not because of the idea itself. It's because we are still debating whether Witness Lee has some kind of special insight into things. That's what the worry is, or at least the reason for discussion. It's not about the ideas themselves. It's about Lee, and his movement.

In the meantime, it's a distraction. Or could be.

"God in life and nature but not the Godhead." Who cares? Might as well be debating transubstantiation, for all the good it will do us.

Just a random thought.[/QUOTE]

From: Local Church Discussions > Apologetic discussions
"God in life and nature but not in the Godhead

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

According to probably accurate reports, WL began his ministry in the US after a time of repentance. He definitely was a gifted, learned, and productive minister. By all accounts, he was himself morally sound, unlike his sons, and who can fault a man for that since many others like Eli the priest and the prophet Samuel suffered similar failures with their sons.

Had Lee simply trusted in the Lord's provision for his ministry as he often claimed, and not padded it with exclusive teachings, outrageous claims, rotten business deals, etc. and kept his reprobate sons completely out of the picture, adding a dose of humility in his service, perhaps this forum and the sordid LC history would never have existed.

From: Local Church Discussions > Orthopraxy - Christian Practice > Double Standards

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by cityonahill

http://i.imgur.com/N74Hh.jpg

This is where LSM's version of "The Lord's move on earth" fits in the grand scheme of things! (A day in the life of "The training")

--reece

From: Local Church Discussion/Christian Movements/Ministries

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Igzy
I think some ex-local churchers tend to blame too many of their problems on the influence of the local church. They think they would be much happier, well-adjusted, and so forth, if they had never been in the local church. I know I've bought this in the past. I've had to remind myself I was pretty messed up going into the LC. Certainly the LC deserves some blame for some problems I've had to deal with. But I'm responsible for many I would like to blame on the LC. At some point you have to be accountable for what you are.

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no way that I can honestly say that the LC has not helped me to grow in Christ and to grow humanly. Just the other day I commented to another ex-LC friend about the LC really helped me to speak for the Lord, overcoming mountains of self-consciousness, stage-fright, stunted articulation, and the like. How could I ever begin to "dump" all the Biblical knowledge I had accumulated during my decades in the Recovery?

And I should apologize to all the readers lest they somehow got the impression from my numerous posts that prior to the LC, I was a decent, upright, wholesome, well-mannered, sober, law-abiding citizen, full of potential, since I was not. One telling memory I have, just days after I was saved: a complete stranger at work, one of many young people at my employ, happened to see me and said completely out of the blue, "first time I seen you straight!" I can't imagine what others thought.

Stories like this prevent me from ever regretting my salvation in Christ, or my early days in the LC. God was too real to deny. And this explains why I have firmly held onto the belief that something so good was brought to nothing by evil workers. Evil workers playing God, lording it over the saints, loving the glory of man, lusting for power and control, abusing the flock of God, etc. etc. has spoiled whatever good that God had done in the LC's.

From: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

[HERn]

Originally Posted by testallthings

From: Local Church Discussion/Christian Movements/Ministries

That was really funny and accurate. Thanks TAT.

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The songs from the saints in the LC are to me some of the most beautiful, encouraging and Christ-centered music I have enjoyed. I still have the Divine Romance CD and enjoy many of Howard's deep, heart-felt songs. I continue to enjoy the NYCYPCD and purchase any new one that comes out. They have helped me through many a difficult time. We used to sing and worship the Lord like this all the time in every meeting. We were always so in love with Him and could always sense His love for us. I wonder my brother do the saints still sing like this in the meetings of the church?

From: Favorite hymns of mine

[testallthings]

Re: How Can LocalChurchDiscussions.Com Improve?

Originally Posted by OBW

Now, having responded to an off-topic comment, I will weigh in on the topic.

I'm not sure that the answer to participation is in sections devoted to Local Church-friendly posts. That may be OK.

But the problem I see is in how we deal with some of the LRC people that do come.

It is a forum violation to "out" the identity of another forum member. Yet we feel quite OK with arguing about how someone is using a different moniker here than in the Bereans forum. So what. Get over it. I did it too. The fact that you don't like the way that someone is posting should be dealt with in terms of the arguments, not the person. And while we have generally not been dishing out ad hominems, we often are too focused on perceived motives than on what is said. If you can't deal with what is said, then study it until you can. Or until you change your mind.

And if they truly violate some forum rule, then deal with it. Otherwise, stick to the arguments.

If you want to direct a topic at someone, don't presume or demand that they agree with you to do so. It is antagonistic. And useless at much of anything.

Admit that the forum is not completely open. It took too long to evict the irrelevant posting of those "my writing is scripture" guys a few months back. Don't ask for permission to evict profane and inflammatory posts, especially after sufficient warnings. And don't cower to the soft-hearted who just want to let everybody do whatever.

And for those of us that think we are dong it mostly right, some of us need to quit being offended that someone disagrees. The nature of the discussion is "argument." Not dispute, but an interchange of ideas well formed and grounded in something that we tend to agree is a sound base for truth. There is interpretation, so we don't always agree on everything. Lay out your reasons for your positions. Don't presume that disagreement is personal. It is OK to agree to disagree. And a point being made due to "your" position (specifically against it) may be useful for others in the forum even if you do not think you the point is correct. But engage the disagreement in terms of the discussion, not in terms of your emotions and feelings.

While spiritual things are not always discoverable within logic and reason, the discussions should be logical and reasonable. Be sure that you are actually responding to what has been said. And be sure that you are saying what you mean to say. Do not presume that a response that says "you" means a personal attack. It may only be an identifier as to who made the particular statement. And when someone says that you said "X" and you just demand where it was said, beware that you may find that a directed response to a previous post may indeed show that you did. It is better to be a little humble and admit that you may have misspoke, or been unclear. Clarify. It may get tedious. And you may discover that someone simply does not want to understand. Or is trying to obfuscate things. Better to ignore them than just go ballistic. (I say that when I am not going ballistic.)

Last, the discussion of what it right or wrong about the teachings of any particular person cannot be based upon what they said. It is clearly about what they said. But if they are the foundation upon which their correctness or incorrectness is based, there is no discussion. All arguments are circular and we might as well go away. Lee is not right or wrong based solely upon Lee (or Nee, for that matter). There must be something outside of them that is relied upon to test them. That is mainly scripture. We can refer to other writers, but those must be tied to scripture or we are just arguing one secondary against another without reference to the primary source.

For this reason, we must discuss the teachings and doctrines meticulously. At this point, there is a tremendous lack of prior information because the old Bereans site is closed. It is still available for reference (at least I have managed to get into it about 2 out of 5 times I tried). But there is no certainty that it will remain. We need to stop relying on what has gone before. If it isn't in this forum, it might as well not exist. It is time to get theological. I would agree that most of the LRC's problems are practical and therefore, their orthopraxy, as well as all of the storms, cover-ups, etc., are extremely relevant. But while there is an orthodox core, the reason that the orthopraxy is so messed-up is that there is a serious problem with defining what is the main thing. And what is the way to read the Bible. It is too much like being handed a thick manual of how to reread so many words and phrases that what is important becomes unimportant and what is unimportant (or not there) become preeminent. It is a system of error that takes too many away from the real charge we have concerning our life here and now. It is replacing righteousness with "in your spirit." It replaces obedience with abiding and getting dispensing. It paralyzes too many, yet makes them certain that they are God's best and that all others are deficient, even harlot daughters of the Whore of Babylon.

Simply having areas designated for the posting of untouched "pro LRC" material seems to undermine the very purpose of the discussion — unless it is implicitly for the purpose of giving material for immediate discussion of the "current" issues. The LRC has plenty of sites with their own things. And you can be sure that if you go to one of them and post something negative, you will be booted off. I feel that other than as a reference for the ongoing discussions, postings that are strictly advertisements for the LSM/LRC should be deleted. Same for any other kind of ministry. There have been too many others allowed in the past. Anyone can make a recommendation. But when threads are created that only tangentially have a link to Nee, Lee, or the LRC, then post copious quantities of material from another ministry and spend most of their time directing us toward following that, it should also be deleted.

I'm not even sure that the things you link on the sides are entirely appropriate. Links to the online LSM and RecV are good for sources materials. But advertising the next conference? Not sure it should be done. It opens the forum to advertisement for any conference.

From:Re: How Can LocalChurchDiscussions.Com

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We don't judge the Virgin Birth by Roman traditions, but by the One born of the virgin -- Jesus Christ, the sinless and perfect Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

Saying Jesus is not a sinless man born of a virgin, is no different than saying Jesus Christ has not been raised from the dead. If these are not true, then we are all still in our sins, (I Cor 15.17) then the Word did not become flesh, (John 1.1-14) then He was not the mystery of godliness manifested in the flesh. (I Tim 3.16)

from:Local Church Discussions > Alternative Views - > Virgin Birth questioned: the implications

[testallthings]

Re: James Barber - History of Witness Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I was as equally helped by him as I was twisted

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Amazing! NML has summed up our entire Local Church experience in just 11 words. This is why I love this forum. I have spent over 10 years on these forums trying to "summarize" our experience in less than 1,000 words, and this bro comes along and does it in 11. THIS is why we need the Body, and this is what this forum is all about. Thank you NewManLiving.

-

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

#1
Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Let this mind be in me
which was also in you
though equal with God laid aside
All glory and honor
was emptied and humbled
then you went to the cross and you died

How amazing that the apostle Paul would have the gumption and gall to presume to know about "this mind..which was also in Christ Jesus." At least he gave us some insight to his understanding in the following verses.."Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross".(Phil 2:6-8)

As believers and followers of Christ, we have been bestowed with the incredible privilege of being "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet 1:4). Yet with this privilege also comes some "responsibilities" (MY term, not that of the Word of God). Our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, though "equal with God" "humbled himself, and became obedient". If the Son of the living God made himself "of no reputation" how much more should we, his followers, not care about our reputation or standing before any man or institution of this world? Are we ready and willing to be humbled as he was? Some of the saints of the past have even become obedient unto death. God, in his mercy, is not calling us to this extreme, yet should he not at least expect us to become obedient, to be humbled?

What is "humbled" to you?

from: Local Church Discussions > Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here?
52 Verses for Current and Former Local Churchers

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Stepping away from the board for awhile has allowed me to think more clearly about what's important. It's easy to get contentious here and I wish to apologize for having being a bit too much at times.

More seriously, I want to apologize to several people publicly.

One is Indiana. I've lacked understanding for his heart to reconcile the community of saints he loves. I'm sorry, brother.

Another is OBW. We've knocked heads several times and I feel I need to say I was too much and in the wrong several times. Sorry to you too, brother.

I know because these two are serious, sincere Christians, they have already forgiven me. But I still felt to say something.

Lastly, I want to apologize to Bilbodog, wherever he may be. If you don't know who I'm talking about, you missed an entertaining show. Anyway, sorry to you too, bro. I hope you are out there and doing well.

Okay, that's all. Back to the discussions. Just try to remember... in the end, relationships are everything.

Igzy

from: Local Church Discussions > Introductions and Testimonies > Apologies __________________________________________________ ___________

I apologize to you all too, before I step away from the board for awhile.

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by testallthings

From: Local Church Discussions > Orthopraxy - Christian Practice > Double Standards

With all due respect to WL and co, he had financial problems before his beginnings in US. Besides failing to sell men's clothes at the Seattle worlds fair in 62, it seems well documented that there were financial irregularities in both the phillipines and Taiwan before his problems here. Admitibly he brought a very solid cover operation to the US which has never been broken down. Probably not as good as the Clintons but for over fifty years has hardly been cracked.

It's very hard for me to see the good he ever had. His appearances were very good for a while, but you remember how he talked more than once about the foxes tails that always finally stick up. Of course he was always talking about "them" when actually he was speaking a Fraudian slip.

I can now never believe WL only went sour in the mid 80s. When he spoke with Stephen Kaung in the early 60s he was already doing "his" fhing.

Lisbon

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by thisovercomer

Saints,
It was only a few years ago that I even began to really ask--So what happened to those who walked away? I admit before then I was probably to immature to care or too fearful to know.

At first I was told by members whom I asked that it was better not to speak of you all because nothing good would come from it. Then after time, especially with the Harvest publishers lawsuit, the reference back to Mindbenders and the whole Titus Chu quarantine, more came out. My heart was so heavy for you all. I am someone who prayers all the time, my heart is at peace when I pray. How many times have I mourned your loss from the LC and pleaded with the Lord to keep supplying you with life and light?

Something inside me kept saying, "But there must still be light in their spirit? God you did not toss them and they can't have tossed you God?" I hope in any of my prayers I did not judge your heart--I think I more wondered what could be so distasteful that you could give up the church life as I enjoyed it. I knew it was not perfect, but IMHO just like me, it was being perfected. So my question to God was--"Why couldn't they have been more patient? Lord take away whatever has blinded them."

I am thankful to the Lord that He told me to pray "bind on earth what is bound in heaven and loose on earth what is loosed in heaven. Lord not my will but your will". This was really a covering from the Lord so that my prayers were under His authority and not under my small understanding of you all.

If in anything I have ever misspoken concerning you all I beg your forgiveness and ask that you release me from anything I have judged you for in my heart.
I now know that the Lord brought me through and made me stronger because he is readying for a purpose. I must believe that some at least, if not all of you, have been called out in the same way for the same purpose. Which for me is still not fully revealed.

Thank you Lord that your blood washes and cleanses me clean.

Hebrews 10:35 Do not cast away therefore your boldness, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance in order that, having done the will of God, you may obtain the promise.37 "For in yet a very little while the Coming One will come and will not delay. 38 But My righteous one shall live by faith; and if he shrinks back, My soul does not delight in him.'' 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to ruin but of them who have faith to the gaining of the soul.

Praise you Lord Jesus!!! Thank you that you are the ascended Head of all things.

.................................................. ......

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Equivocating, hypocrisy, double-speak, mealy-mouthed (thanks ZNP), two-faced, and duplicitous are all words that come to mind.

We believers have no way to know what is is men's hearts. Some speak "two-foldly" with the purest of intentions, others with sinister self-serving motives. Oftentimes, the former describes their earlier state of mind, and the latter decribes later times. What we can know is how people behave, how they treat one another, how they conduct themselves uprightly. That is why we cannot judge others' hearts, only their actions.

WL and LSM got a free pass from many of us, that is, until we learned how unrighteous they were in their dealings. Unfortunately, many of us, like myself and you, learned this many years after the fact.

....,.........,.

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by OBW

I mentioned in my last post that I have questions. Some of which might not go over well with some people. But my questions have ceased to be about brand new revelation, but rather the tendency for us to lose sight of the steady pathway set before us. We rush to go on a missions trip. We celebrate the outwardly spiritual acts of some. And in doing that, we denigrate the constantly faithful living of those who never went on a missions trip. Or went to seminary. Or joined a team going door-to-door preaching the gospel. The church is full of people who are humble in their faith. Who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Who love their neighbor as themselves. But we celebrate those who are the missionaries. Or have achievements in the "spiritual" realm.

I wonder why we worship God by singing a lot of songs that center on me. Surely part of the worship should include some thankfulness for what has been done for me/us. And some repentance for my failures. But the center should be Christ. Not even a lot about my life with some thanks to Christ thrown into the chorus. There is a place for "me" songs. That mostly should not be worship.

,........................

[testallthings]

WHO SAID IT?

QUOTE=Igzy;18697]

1. “This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth...”
   
   
2. "The gospel of the kingdom ceased to be proclaimed shortly after the death of the apostles. It was not preached again until ________."
   
   
3. "_________, the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth."
   
   
4. "There is one church! There is one God. There is one kingdom of God and this is it!"
   
   
5. "The only way to follow the Lord absolutely is to go the way of _______."
   
   
6. "This is the only way that was started by Christ."
   
   
7. "This is God's inner circle--His very elect...we are God's only true representative on this earth.”
   
   
8. "...we _________ are the remnant church!"
   
   
9. “The church is careful to not be allied with other churches..."
   
   
10. "All of the doctrines of God were restored by _________."
    
    
11. "The true church will be a restored Church."
    
    
12. "There is nobody else in this country that has the true gospel...There is nobody else in this entire world....There is no place to go.”
    
    
13. “Some people say there are other fellowships that can be alright. No, there can't be! Because there is only one body..."
    
    
14. "This is the one unique move of God on earth today."
    
    
15. “When you walk away from ________, there is no where to walk. Walking out of the light into the darkness."
    
    
16. "Just taking a look at the hundreds of Christian churches in existence today, it doesn't take much to notice all the disputes among beliefs, practices, doctrines, and authority that divide each denomination. It would be impossible to join all these churches, even the Protestant sects, into one church. Therefore, all of them do not make "one body without schisms". There can only be one, and I testify that the one is _________."
    

1. Ezra Taft Benson, Mormon leader
   
2. Jehovah's Witness Watchtower publication, 12/1/1928, pp. 363-6
   
3. Jehovah's Witness Watchtower publication, 4/1/1919, p. 6414
   
4. Dave Weger, International Church of Christ
   
5. Witness Lee, the Lord's Recovery
   
6. The Cooneyites
   
7. The Philadelphia Church of God
   
8. Seventh Day Adventist
   
9. Church of God in Christ, Mennonite
   
10. Philadelphia Church Of God
    
11. Mormons
    
12. Nick Young, International Church of Christ
    
13. Cooneyites
    
14. Witness Lee, the Lord's Recovery
    
15. Nick Young, International Church of Christ
    
16. Mormons
    

http://www.letusreason.org/cult12.htm

http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm[/QUOTE]

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yup! I'm the "fool" who still believes in the Biblical record.

Here's my theme song for AltViews ...

God's Own Fool by Michael Card

Seems I've imagined Him all of my life
As the wisest of all of mankind
But if God's Holy wisdom is foolish to man
He must have seemed out of His mind
For even His family said He was mad
And the priest said a demon's to blame
But, God in the form of this angry young man
Could not have seemed perfectly sane

Chorus:
When we in our foolishness thought we were wise
He played the fool and He opened our eyes
When we in our weakness believed we were strong
He became helpless to show we were wrong
So we follow God's own Fool
For only the foolish can tell
Believe the unbelievable, come be a fool as well

So come lose your life for a carpenter's son
For a madman who died for a dream
And You'll have the faith His first followers had
And you'll feel the weight of the beam
So surrender the hunger to say you must know
Have the courage to say I believe
For the power of paradox opens your eyes
And blinds those who say they can see

Chorus

So we follow God's own Fool
For only the foolish can tell
Believe the unbelievable, come be a fool as well!

[Ohio]

So surrender the hunger to say you must know,

Have the courage to say "I believe,"

For the power of paradox opens your eyes,

And blinds those who say they can see.

Hip hip hurray!

I love that song!

Yes, indeed, much needed in our "alternative" universe.

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Nell

Rhetorically speaking, what is a "blended" and where in the Bible is there such a thing as a "blended"? The Apostles? I don't think they represented a publishing company.

Historically there was Nee who actually had a ministry of his own. He "passed the baton" to Lee who actually had a ministry of his own. Regardless of the merits of these two "ministries" there was a man behind each ministry. To who or what did Lee "pass the baton"? A publishing company?

What defines a "ministry"? I had always believed that a "ministry" was personal to an individual. We each have a "calling" or a "talent" or a "gift" from the Lord that can be considered our ministry or at least the course given to each of us to run.

Among Christians in ages past, when a minister dies, his ministry dies with him. This works because of Jesus...the Author and Finisher of our faith! Paul makes this clear when, at the time of his death he told us 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: (KJV) So it would seem to stand that Nee finished his course and Lee finished his course.

There are exceptions such as Luther and the Lutheran denomination, but as we know "denomination" is not something the followers of Lee believe to be true about "the ministry" of Lee and in my mind is a different matter altogether than the actual ministry of Luther. Other denominations were founded based on the ministry of a man, now deceased.

There are of course "ministers" who wrote many books. Then, look at the ministry of Billy Graham. He was an evangelist who wrote a few books, but does anyone actually follow the "ministry" of Billy Graham? Even his two children have ministries of their own unrelated to their father in that they do not hold evangelical crusades as their father did.

So now we have the ministry of Nee-->Lee-->"blendeds" which represent a publishing company. This is very unusual and certainly not represented in scripture. It would seem to be very difficult to carry on a ministry that is not yours. So difficult that a YouTube video is needed on how to do it. This is also very strange. The apostles were only able to carry on the New Testament ministry of Jesus Christ because of his death and resurrection. He is fully qualified as our Redeemer, and He in fact lives inside of us...and so much more.

This is a ministry which has stood for millennia. Do we need another?

John the Baptist said, John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. WL said that (in spite of John knowing he should decrease) John the Baptist was in competition with Jesus. He was sent to prepare the way, and when Jesus came, John's ministry was over. When John did not end his ministry, eventually his head was cut off and Jesus did not intervene to stop it from happening.

This might support the notion that all other ministers, at their death, give way to the one who lives on eternally and is, in fact, a living minister...the one who is fully able to sustain HIS New Testament ministry which belongs to Him and Him alone.

No doubt in my mind about how much to throw out!

Nell

.............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by aron

I have a few questions.

- Do they still tell you, "don't waste your time" with the poor, the orphans, the widows, with those who have no means to repay you in the present age? See Luke 14:13,14; cf Prov 19:17. Paul wrote (Gal 2:10) that he was "eager to remember the poor" but I didn't see much eagerness when I was in the FTTA. Instead they were eager for "good building material", such as Caucasian college students. How 'normal' is this disdain for the weak and the sick among us? It doesn't seem like a normal Christian church life, to me.

- Your moniker is SevenSpirits: do you really believe in seven spirits, or in just one spirit, sevenfold intensified to overcome the degradation of the church? If this "seven is really one" idea is true, then why didn't WL use the same methodology throughout the Revelation? Why didn't he say that Revelation 21:12 showed one gate, which had become twelvefold intensified, or that Revelation 8:2 showed merely one angel standing before God, who was sevenfold intensified, or that the seven churches in Rev 2 and 3 were in fact one church, sevenfold? Why use one methodology (seven = one) in one place, and abandon that interpretive method everywhere else? Why the inconsistency of method?

And if Moses built a lampstand holding up seven lamps in Exodus, then was the church already degraded in Exodus when he went on the holy mountain and received the vision? So, why did Moses need to create seven lights in Exodus? In the NT we see only one spirit (e.g. Ephesians 4:4), and then in Revelation 1 (once again?) John beheld seven flames burning before the throne?

I suspect there were seven flames all along, and the "degraded church" idea was something that WL needed to distance himself from every other teacher, all of whom were of course useless. "They're all degraded!!" Only WL had the oracle, so we were taught. Yes, were problems in the Asian churches in Revs 2 & 3, but there also were problems in Jerusalem, Antioch, etc. So why seven flames in Revelation? And why WL's need to overturn the plain language right in front of him, and make seven equal one? And if his logic were right, why didn't he consistently use it?

- Why were women prominent in the early "recovery" movement, but now they can't even give a message in church on Sunday morning? Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, etc etc; there were dozens functioning alongside WN. Ironically, one hundred years ago, women couldn't vote or hold public office, but could function in WN's "Little Flock" movement. Today women can run for President but can't speak on Sunday morning? What got recovered, here? Where's Priscilla and Aquila in the Lord's recovery movement? Banished.

..............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

During the cold war days, I worked with a Russian engineer who was released during the Carter administration. An opportunity opened to emigrate to the US and he took the chance. Though he was not at all religious, his papers said he was "Jewish," because a parent of his also was so labeled, as were his daughter's papers.

The Soviet propaganda machine daily smeared everything "western." That's all the people knew. Radio Free Europe, the only source of outside information, was regularly jammed by Soviet authorities. The Soviet people daily were brainwashed that theirs was the best life on earth, while America was a cesspool of capitalistic criminals. It was said that half the people in Russia were engaged in spying on the other half. Mikhail settled in Columbus, OH simply because Columbus discovered America. That was his only point of reference with his new home.

After Mikhail got work at my company, and began to acclimate to American life, he sent a letter back to his brother in Moscow. He sent pictures of his home, his family, and his two used cars. His brother promptly disowned him for lying about owning those two cars. Impossible he felt, since Mother Russia was the best place on earth, and he was still waiting to obtain his first car.

Back in those days, there was a saying about those behind the walls of Soviet domination. Absent any honest information, and unable to inform those people of the truth, it was said, "open the door, and see which way the people go." If communism was that great, then all the people would stay. If capitalism were that bad, then no one would dare go there. Open the door to see which way the people go!

Where fear and propaganda run rampant, we can draw a few similarities between life in the Recovery and life behind the iron curtain. I always found it simply amazing to hear how quickly some saint could be "poisoned" and leave the Recovery. We always blamed it on the devil, but if life in the Recovery was so good, and life out there in Christianity was so bad, then surely none would dare depart. Later on I learned how much I was held by fear and false promises. I discovered how much unrighteousness existed at LSM, and how they treated those brothers brave enough to speak their conscience.

It is worthwhile to ask why the leadership at LSM is so afraid of the internet. Jesus and all the Apostles were constantly lied about, but could care less since they walked in the truth. They trusted in God. LSM, however, has many secrets they wish to remain secret. That's why they are so afraid of the internet, and that's why they must quarantine and eliminate any saint who knows something.

..............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by aron

I posted previously about 'tension' between the word of God (the Bible, or scripture) and our creeds (our ideational templates, or thought-worlds). And I want to place that tension within the context of the flock, the church. We all can read the Bible and get understandings; we know what words mean in conventional usage. If something says "gold" or "sorrow" I have an experiential base to reference that, and presume some understanding. And I bring my presumed understanding into the church, into the fellowship of faith. I also usually have questions: why does it say this, here? Why did this character say or do that, there? Again, that's where fellowship comes in; usually there's some group consensus about what a passage may mean, or its significance within the larger story.

But what if your understandings or questionings produce tension? Suppose you see something, and you are like, "Wow, what a revelation!" You feel like an angel from God whispered in your ear as you read. You felt the warm glow of the Holy Spirit vibrating sympathetically within you. "Were not our hearts burning, as He opened for us the scriptures!" Now, you want to do the equivalent of the Samaritan woman, running around and banging on doors and exclaiming to others, to come and see. You want to run to the fellowship and exclaim, "I have seen the Lord!"

Now suppose there's tension between what you see and what the conventions of the flock, and suddenly you're in the minority? What do you do? I think of NT examples: again and again Jesus came up against the "majority opinion" of His time. And people who agreed with Him were often afraid to do so openly, for fear of incurring the wrath of the overseers... what if we find this in church? Look at Luther: conventional wisdom, and the traditions of the church, all pointed in one direction; Luther looked in God's Word and saw something different. What to do? That, my friends, is not an easy question. Luther's revelation of justification by faith eventually drove him from the RCC. Likewise, WN's revelation of the "local ground of the church" likewise drove him away from the western denominations, those heirs of Luther's Protestantism. And so on and so on; we all could get revelations if we wanted, and go our own ways. What if God whispers in your ear? What to do? (and I think this question is very relevant within the LC movement).

In my case, as an example, I really appreciate Clement of Alexandria, and prize his writings largely because he was in such temporal proximity to the original apostles. I feel as though he was hearing echoes of their speaking as he wrote. The ones who'd sat at John and Peter's feet had told others, who in turn told those who told Clement. As a scholar he studied the ancient writings, but Clement as a Christian disciple had access to oral traditions which offered interpretive windows into the nascent NT literature. But at one point in Clement's writing, I was like, "Whaaaaat?" It just didn't make any sense and was totally against my understanding, if I could be said to possess understanding. And I couldn't, I wouldn't abandon my own logic. I couldn't just say, "Well, this doesn't make sense, but Clement said it, so it's okay." No - I can read too! The Bible says "A" here, and "B" there, and logic dictates that A + B = C. Clement said A + B = X. No, I said; I simply protest. I'm sorry but no deal.

So what to do? My 'hero' Clement just tanked in front of my eyes. Ultimately I just let it go; we have the Bible, and our understandings, and the larger Christian conversation going on around us, as it has for centuries. I'm not going to agree with everything. Nor is everyone else going to "get in line" behind me. I didn't reject Clement, and likewise I don't exit the flock because of my experiences of God giving me some 'private truth'. The ongoing Christian fellowship contains a degree of uncertainty, and tension, and ultimately God may resolve it (tension is a great spur for revelation!), and some may just float along unresolved. That's okay.

..............

[OBW]

• I must comment on this past repost by testallthings of aron's earlier post.
  
  This idea of seeing something and finding yourself in the minority is both the way forward and the way into lala land. Sometimes we as a larger group really are stuck. It takes someone willing to read what is there, have a revelation as to what it is actually saying, and raising their voice/hand and suggesting that we rethink.
  
  And yet it is the allure of unique thinking that captures so many into cults or other marginal sects. The idea that I/we have knowledge that only a few others have and that the majority is ignorant.
  
  It is a dangerous place to be.
  
  But at the same time, it is the fault of the larger group for not being willing to at least consider the new idea. To take it and do more than just dismiss it because of (some pet doctrine or way of thinking; that is what we have always believed; etc).
  
  I honestly think that Evangelicalism is overall closer to "getting it right" in so many ways. Yet they are so stuck on certain things that they trip all over themselves dismissing anything that challenges those things without actually thinking.
  
  I once prayed a prayer and now, no matter how much I do not believe, I am declared to "believe in Jesus Christ." (. . . whoever "believes" shall not perish . . .)
  The Christian life is all about preaching the gospel in an outward way.
  The Great Commission was primarily intended to be a charge to all believers.
  I do not need to repent . . . just "take the blood" or "claim God's grace."
  How I behave outside of the church is unimportant as long as I am not blatantly unrighteous, criminal, etc.
  
  I do not have a clear answer on some of these or statements/questions like them, but the standard position really bothers me. It seems to raise a few small items to the status of THE one thing while ignoring massive sections that would seem to suggest a different way.
  
  And therefore, the one, or few, who come up with a different way may be precursors to either the forward movement of the church, or the exit of some from "the way."
  
  Or they may just be pushed-down without any real consideration by those who have decided that it is all settled. Yet they are unable to see that their "settled" position was not the settled position of not that many years ago, therefore who is to say that we should be settled.
  
  And it is "we" and not just "me" who should be concluding. I can read. I can suggest. I can engage. But I cannot dictate or determine alone. That is the one place where the recent saying (paraphrased) is true:

Everyone reading their own Bible and getting their own revelations = 34,000 divisions.

While I see problems with the statement, there is something true in it.

[testallthings]

Kisstheson - Words from my Heart
Dear ones,

My only burden for this blog is to simply share with everyone those things that have really touched me, including special words I have read or heard and special experiences I have experienced.

As of the present moment, I am finding a great deal of encouragement in the ministries of two precious brothers whom I greatly admire - Oswald Chambers (1874-1917), and Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945). To my rational mind, both died too young. Both could have really given our brother Witness Lee a run for his money in the latter part of the twentieth century! Our dear heavenly Father, however, knows best, and He does all things well. He knows why He took them home early.

Here is a very touching excerpt from dear brother Bonhoeffer's book Life Together, in a section entitled "Intercession":

Quote:
"A Christian fellowship lives and exists by the intercession of its members for one another, or it collapses. I can no longer condemn or hate a brother for whom I pray, no matter how much trouble he causes me. His face, that hitherto may have been strange and intolerable to me, is transformed in intercession into the countenance of a brother for whom Christ died, the face of a forgiven sinner. This is the happy discovery for the Christian who begins to pray for others . . .

How does this happen? Intercession means no more than to bring our brother into the presence of God, to see him under the Cross of Jesus as a poor human being and sinner in need of grace. Then everything in him that repels us falls away; we see him in all his destitution and need. His need and his sin become so heavy and oppressive that we feel them as our own, and we can do nothing else but pray: 'Lord, do Thou, Thou alone, deal with him according to Thy severity and Thy goodness.' To make intercession means to grant our brother the same right that we have received, namely, to stand before Chirst and share in His mercy."
__________________
"The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better."
Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality


From Kissetheson blog

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello brother,

I was there all through the 60s and 70s. I attended a few "burnings." I never burned anything. We had seen a good number of dear ones saved out of the counter culture and drug scene. They were encouraged to deal with anything that was polluted from that source as in Acts 19:18-20, "Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of all; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing."

I remember a few of the saints, mainly sisters, get a little carried away and declare they wanted to be just for the Lord and they burned some family items. In Dallas, we had a burning and before the event, George Whitington used Acts 19 to clearly illustrate this was not for ordinary items for which you might have a special fondness. I remember he took one young brother aside and as a gentle father helped him see that his throwing his favorite winter coat on the fire was not necessary and might distract from the serious dealing some were having with evil things from their past.

Somehow in the reporting about burnings all I hear on the forums is about mothers burning pictures of their children etc. I only know of two who did so and they both later regreted and said they were carried away. (But I would think there probably were others.) There was a lot of internal pressure felt by some to be at the forefront of being all out for the Lord. I sometimes heard the defense for foolish behavior, "You can never be too much for the Lord."

I am not aware of any burnings after around 1973-4. Dear brother, you would not have been kicked out regarding burnings. I never burned anything and no one ever checked up on me. It was left strictly up to each individual. I feel regret for people who burned items which they wish they still had but I have little sympathy for there were no lists handed out and never that I recall any words of fellowship to encourage saints to deal with precious keepsakes. But some, again mainly women, gave teary testimonies about their battle with the Lord over giving up family photos etc. When my wife asked me about this and if she should consider these item, I pointed out that Acts 19 had nothing to say about this and none, that's right none, of the ministrying or leading brothers ever mentioned anything like this. In fact, I was in fellowship with elders and co-workers when the extreme and foolish actions at burnings were advised against and that help should be giving that the younger saints not be pushed into foolish behavior. The whole thing of burnings lasted a very short time.

For your consideration and context.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Hope

..............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

In order to motivate the sheep to officially release Witness Lee from all financial obligations, they also told us that Lee was a crushed, broken man, who was grieving before the Lord, barely able to raise his head (or language similar to this) because of the pain he felt over having hurt the saints. I remember, at the time, that the words they used caused me to form a mental picture of Witness Lee on his knees weeping before the Lord. Of course, this started my emotional heart strings playing, and I joined John in gladly signing away any hope of the return of his mother's hard earned money--money she wanted her son to have.

While writing the book, I remember asking myself if had I taken money from others and hurt them as Lee did, what would I have done? Would I have paid it back later, if I became able to do so? My answer was, "Absolutely, yes." I would not want to give account to the Lord for the harm I had caused to His children. I would want to restore what I had taken from them, no matter how long it took.

After the book was published, a brother who had been an elder on the east coast during the 70s, told me that he had seen a copy of Witness Lee's income tax return in the late 70s (77 I think) and that Lee had made a million dollars that year (just a few years after we had released him). I remember saying, "What!!!???" How could that be? I asked, "If he had income like that, why didn't pay us back!?"

So, I feel like asking again today, "If the portrait they painted for us of Witness Lee's post-Daystar-gig condition was a true one, then why didn't Lee pay his brethren back before he died?" (I suspect that the "broken man" picture we heard in Texas was more likely an embellishment of Ray Graver's imagination which was designed to more easily manipulate the sheep.) But okay, let's say he was a broken man and he couldn't make any pay-back in the 70s, then why not do so before the end of his life--especially when he was so repentant, and all that, on his near death bed. How about adding to his parting words, "Oh, and you newly appointed blended ones, see that money goes to pay back every one I hurt financially in the 70s, even the 'little potato' contributors." Surely, funding by that time was not a problem. I mean, didn't "pay-back-my-debts-to-my-brothers" belong higher up the Blendeds To Do list than "spend-millions-to-sue-other-believers-and-defend-the-ministry"?

Jesus paid a huge debt for us--one he didn't owe us. So why wouldn't a man who was "becoming God" find it important to make retribution of money he did owe (not legally, of course, but certainly as a Christian leader who used his position and our regard for him in an highly questionable way)? It seems it was more important to Lee to build a god-man publishing empire and make a god-name for himself than to do what was truly godly and right.

I suppose that those of us who invested should also ask ourselves about our own motivation for putting money into Daystar. Were we just a bit too anxious to make money, a return on our investment, (ah hmm, for "the Lord's Recovery")? Was that a factor in our easily being tempted to run out and "sell our possessions" and lay their price at the feet of our very own apostle?

History seems to say pretty clearly that personal gain was a factor on all sides of the equation. It also says, "Apostle? No. Bernie, who then Made Off with the money? Yes."


Thankful Jane

.............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Terry

I know we've often heard how the Church life in the local churches was somehow the Lord's best. How can we as Christians claim to be in the New Testament Ministry, Minstry of the Age, etc when there is no urgency, no desire, and very little love for reconciliation among the brothers and sisters?
I read an article tonight concerning Microsoft's Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs of Apple. These two men were rivals and at times friends, but at the end their relationship was reconciled.

"Gates also reflected on the passing of Steve Jobs. Weeks before the Apple founder died, Gates paid an unannounced visit to the home of his sometime friend and longtime rival.

"He and I always enjoyed talking. He would throw some things out, you know, some stimulating things. We'd talk about the other companies that have come along. We talked about our families and how lucky we'd both been in terms of the women we married. It was great relaxed conversation."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/newsmake...235256838.html

God knows if these two men had a relationship with Him. If you speculate they don't know the Lord, what does it say when unbelievers have a better grasp what reconciliation means that Christians should know and should practice? Going as far back as the so-called "Sister's Rebellion", these brothers and sisters aren't getting any younger. Most of these dear brothers and sisters are into their 70's and 80's. How much time is left? How long are brothers and sisters going to cling onto perceived wrongdoings that happened decades ago and not sense the urgency to be reconciled to one another?

..........

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by JJ

I just wanted to express an overdue thanks for Verses of the Day on this site.

They are encouraging, and sometimes challenging, but always good.

Today's is a heartfelt prayer we can all say:

So teach us to number our days that we may get a heart of wisdom. Return, O Lord! How long? Have pity on your servants! Satisfy us in the morning with your steadfast love, that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.

...............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by aron

Tozer was fond of saying, "I refuse to allow any man to put his glasses on me and force me to see everything in his light." He literally burned the midnight oil in his quest for truth. Giving himself to the study of the great classics in religion, philosophy, literature, poetry, the church fathers and Christian mystics. His special love for poetry and the hymns of the church gave wings to his preaching and writing. A voracious reader, he would read a bit, then think and meditated on what he had read. He often said, "You should think ten times more than you read." He never read a book merely to say he had read it. Always a book was to lead him on in his quest for God. In an editorial on the subject Tozer said that the best book was the one that starts the reader on a train of thought and then bows out, its work finished.

from

http://www.awtozerclassics.com/page/page/4891821.htm

So Tozer refused to put Lee glasses on, and be forced to see everything in Lee's light. I say, good for him.

................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by aron

Today there is widespread agreement that the Psalms prefigured the coming Christ. Psalm 2, Psalm 8, Psalm 16, Psalm 22, Psalm 91, Psalm 110 are heavily quoted in the New Testament, for example.

But when Paul twice (Col 3:16, Eph 5:19) urged the saints to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly as they sang psalms, singing praise to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, do you think he was thinking of limiting them to those few? I don't get any indication of that. What about all the other chapters, which Lee passed over without mention, other than that they are "natural"? Do you think Paul had the same judgment, the same caveat? I don't get that impression.

Do you think, when the Psalmist wrote "In the midst of the assembly I will sing hymns of praise to you", that this applies only when we sing Lee's "revelation of Christ" psalms? That Christ will not/cannot join us if we sing the "natural concept" psalms? Child, please.

I personally think the psalms are much deeper and more revelatory of Christ than Lee realized. It is not that the Psalms are lacking the revelation of Christ, but that Lee was lacking the revelation of Christ. Which brings the next question: why? How could a man who teased images of Christ from the badger skins and silver sockets on the ark of the covenant, and from the windows on Noah's ark, not see Christ there in so many of the Psalms?

I think it is two-fold. First, he had a bias against the "law" by Paul's expositions (see Galatians 2, Romans 7, etc). So when the psalmist expressed a love for the law, Lee recoiled instinctively. The voices of Paul the apostle and Martin Luther the expositor shouted "No!!!" within him. This prevented him from seeking, or seeing, any Christ there.

Secondly, the man clearly had control issues. When the saints actually began to take the apostle Paul at his word and sing the Psalms, "As the hart panteth after the water brooks/so panteth my soul after Thee, O God", then Lee got worried because they were enjoying the Word outside his ministry and this to him was most dangerous. Lee wanted to be the sole mediator of man's revelatory experience in the Word of God. So Lee told the fellowships in the Lord's Recovery to stop singing the Psalms, because they were too low. I have heard this verbally from several people who were there.

He didn't, of course, say "Stop singing the Psalms"; he said, "It would be better if you sang verses from Ephesians than from Psalms". Then he imitated in a mocking way the saints as they praised God using the words of the psalmist. His "shaming" actions were enough to discourage the saints.

So Witness Lee was willing to directly contravene Paul's encouragement, if Paul's encouragement led to a loss of his (Lee's) control. The Spirit was starting to move among the assemblies, and it was moving away from Lee's dominion, and this probably threatened him. Loss of control could not be tolerated. So he stopped it.

And the "spirit of wisdom and revelation" which Paul asked for in Ephesians 1:17 got frustrated. The psalms then were declared to be the "natural concepts of men", versus revelatory pictures of the persecuted, praying, believing, hoping, trusting, declaring, thirsty, hungry, stricken, suffering, fighting, struggling Jesus the Nazarene. "Oh, that's just David (or Asaph, or Lemuel, etc) trying to be good." No, that is Jesus fulfilling the destiny of humankind. That is none other than the "Savior of the world" (1 John 4:14) revealed in detail far beyond Lee's capacity to see.

...............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by OBW

Apologies were due all around between us. And I have always considered offenses to me less than it might have seemed at the time. And therein is the evidence that I have the same need to apologize to you. And I do. We all are blind about some aspects of our effects on others, and even our own motives. And too often I got done with posting a scathing reply of "righteous" indignation to something and then read it again just a few days later and had to ask myself "Who is the idiot that wrote that?"

And as Pogo once (or more than once) said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

..............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by aron

I read a story the other day about an American Football player named Brett Favre. He had a great career and retired last year to much fanfare. But a couple of months go by and he gets restless, he wants to throw footballs to the cheer of the crowd. He's old (by football standards), gray and grizzled and lame. But he wants to throw footballs again. That's all he's been doing since he was knee-high to the proverbial grasshopper.

The team doesn't want him back. They had the parade, the speeches, and now they want someone younger, stronger, faster. But he still wants to play. So the Green Bay Packers are in the unenviable position of telling one of the greatest NFL players to take a hike. Doesn't look good. They want to win but he, unfortunately, wants to keep playing.

Well, I'm like Brett Favre; I was born to do one thing. "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Blessings and honor and thanks and praises and glory to Him who was, and is, and is coming! Amen, amen, amen!" That's my destiny, my calling. To praise God, to bless, and to be blessed.

The way to be counted worthy in that day, is to count HIM worthy today! And we do this with our lips, praising in the midst of a dark place. The darker it is, the louder we praise!

Remember the blind man by the side of the road? As Jesus and the crowds drew near, he kept making a fuss, and people kept saying "Shh!" "Stop it!" "Quiet!"... But he cried out all the louder....

Our situation may try to close our lips of praise, but that means God wants us to cry out all the louder...

Praise Him. Thanks for your sharing, cmw.

..........

[HERn]

Originally Posted by testallthings

..........

Thanks for posting that. "Our situation may try and close our lips of praise...but the darker it gets the louder we praise."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

I have little doubt that he (James Baber) would have supported the quarantine (of Titus Chu). He was not bound by conscience to any of the brothers. For example, around 1978, he threw John So and I under the bus.

Here is the story. The LSM office had seemly come out of nowhere and began setting the direction for the individual local churches. This was raising some alarm bells. The booklet, "The Beliefs and Practices" was announced after a morning training session. John So and I had scheduled a lunch that day. We both had gotten a copy and were very troubled by several matters. Not the content, but the authorship, "The Co-Workers of the Lord's Recovery." Here was an entity and group of which we had never heard. To us, the Lord's recovery was a spiritual activity originated in the third heavens at the throne of God rather than some group or organization on earth. Also who are these seemingly self anointed emissaries? In addition, we were not happy that the brothers and sisters could just hand someone an official publication, as was promoted with the announcement of the booklet, rather than being ready to give an answer for the hope that is within them. In addition, how could you not say that we now had a head quarters which could speak for all the so called Local churches?

As we spoke and walked to the diner, other brothers began to join us, kind of like Luke chapter 24. Francis Ball, Ned Nossaman, and James Barber were with us. I am pretty sure that Dick Taylor was also there. They all agreed that they had a bothering. Francis as an elder in Anaheim prayed with WL before every meeting. He proposed that he set up a private fellowship with him after the evening session. We all agreed. James was in total agreement with John and me and expressed his desire to be in that meeting and to express his concerns to WL.

Right after the meeting James informed John So and I that WL was very upset. Francis had tipped off James. WL did not want to have a quiet private talk but chose to dress the two of us down in the hall for all to see. As soon as the meeting was over, we two were marched to the front. Chairs were rearranged. John and I set by ourselves facing WL and about 50 brothers including James Barber who set behind WL in support of him. Scores of the attendance milled around the little court room and became an audience. WL never asked us to open our concerns but immediately launched into a tirade against us and issued a general warning that if we continued to question what the office and the ministry was doing we would cause a lot of damage to the saints and we would damage ourselves. I can never forget the glare of despising we got from Ron Kangas as WL continued for about 10 minutes with the rebuke. Then he dismissed the meeting and we all went home. Was I ever in shock!!! So was John So. I was taking hospitality with Ned. On the ride home he laughed and laughed. He said this regularly happened to the elders in Orange County California.

James had that sheep eating dog look while WL defended the booklet, the LSM and warned John and I to keep silent. After that night, there were no more auras around the WL coordination for me. I determined I would never be bullied again. I still held to the vision of Christ as Life and the Oneness of the Body of Christ is a vital matter, but the personality cult was broken for me. I did backslide and allowed myself to get drawn into the lawsuit for a while. But I never jumped again when WL or one of his cadre yelled frog. I never again promoted the activities from Anaheim as something all the members in Dallas should plunge into. We begin to shepherd the church according to the need of the members. I decided to take what was helpful and leave alone what was some wild hare. Shortly after this I learned of the secret bank account of WL and LSM being run by Benson and an elder in Dallas. Yet it still took several years for my direction and loyalties to change. Whoa I am getting way ahead of myself.

But dj, I am pretty sure that James valued the favor of WL more that his relationship to John Ingalls and Bill Mallon and for sure Titus did not mean anything to him.

Hope

---------------------------------

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

Conferences were one thing but the extensive and long exhausting private fellowships with the local and regional leaders that went on behind closed doors during the conference times was where the action was.

For yours and for who-so-ever else’s information here is a little 20,000 foot picture of how the various brothers operated in these sessions.

John Ingalls wanted to discuss the messages of the conferences and to learn what was happening in the various churches. He also was very interested in individuals and had an incredible memory for details regarding brothers and sisters. He was deeply interested in their well being. No one feared they may say a wrong thing but John was very free to offer his help and opinion on spiritual living and functioning in the church.

Bill Mallon loved to discuss the Bible truths as well as whatever he was speaking on. He was big on fellowship regarding the experience of the cross. If things were not going smoothly, do not look to Bill M. for a lot of sympathy. In his view, no elder was ever treated badly but rather we all needed more of the cross and more life. Only Benson was more interested in the fine points and details of a local project. If you were buying property, building a building or getting a fax machine do not bring it up. Bill loved to discuss the details.

Bill Freeman was always soaring at least at second heaven level. He loved to discuss his latest revelation from the scriptures and to discuss "the Lord's Work." He was very very interested in the story of any of the brothers where he was visiting. While I was with Bill F. least of all, I know more details of his life before, at and after salvation than any of the others.

Titus Chu was a big listener. He conducted himself in a very humble manner and it was so easy to open whatever was on your heart. We were always amazed when he responded at how helpful and insightful his fellowship was. He had a different flavor in his regards for WL. It was almost a reverence and marked by great gratitude. If an apostle is one who is a special gift to the Body of Christ to give direct aid in the local building of the church, that was Titus above all others. He never pushed Witness Lee's personal work as all but Freeman did but rather gave full attention to the building up work at hand.

James spoke little about what he might be sharing at the conference, but was busy reporting on issues and problems and warning the local leaders. He also had a lot to say about how things should be done and which of the elders or co-workers throughout the country/world were not exactly proper in their alignment with WL or who was working independently or who was not in life. He liked to talk about the economy, business and politics. Many times I felt I was just in a good ole boys bull session.

Max was ready to get with the program of taking the earth, spreading the gospel, mobilizing the saints etc. He had little use for so called spirituality and criticized in a generic way those who would stress purity of method over what will work. After two hours with Max, you often did not know if you should jump through a flaming hoop or just wind your watch. But you probably did have a good time.

Benson was and is the best at this type of gathering. He could control but would not exercise control. He would lead without appearing to do so. ETC. Eventually he was the strongest of all. He was a master at this type of meeting, maybe even better that WL. Whenever the session ended, we all knew our place and what we were expected to do and that Benson was in charge.

It was in this type of setting that WL controlled the churches. Later as he traveled less he added more of his special elders-co/workers gatherings. James and Max and later Benson used this setting to gain influence throughout the country. Benson is not a dynamic speaker or Bible expositor yet he is now the leader not any of the other six. How? What I introduced is the key to understanding how things were done. I am not trying to blow my own horn but if you were not allowed into these gatherings you are not privy to “the what happened to us full picture.”

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

-------------------------------------

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Terry

William E. Mallon
11327 SW 172 Street
Miami, FL 33157
December 16,1987

My dear Brother Lee,

I am both grateful to you and appreciative of your telephone Call on Wednesday, December 9. After much consideration, I felt led, being greatly indebted to you, to respond to you in writing, giving you the more detailed explanation you searched for over the phone. I do this out of faithfulness to the Lord and you. Please understand that I respect you very highly, my heart is compassionate toward you, and my sympathies are fully with you during this hour of frustration.

Please permit me to fellowship in all honesty and candor. Knowing that honesty risks arrogance just as humility risks hypocrisy, yet if honesty and humility become tainted, we must "choose the difference between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility." In other words, we should do nothing at the expense of truth and reality...

You may ask, Why did I not do anything before now? First, for three years I stood against my concerns because they seemed to be founded without supporting evidences. There were a number of insinuations and innuendoes, but I felt to wait until these were more manifested. Second, the principle is that it always takes time. Time is the best means to manifest things. Even today, I expect I know only the tip of the iceberg, which means that much more is submerged beneath the surface... By divorcing myself from the work, I then had the ground and the liberty to be open, transparent, and honest with you.

Finally, I believe that a kind of blind loyalty has been promoted, which issues into a propensity to obstruct truthfulness and single hearted faithfulness. Blind loyalty is very much of the soulish, natural life. It blinds us to honesty and reality, leads us down a narrow and false pathway, and protects our self serving ambitions from challenge and criticism. Honesty opens ourselves to grow in wisdom and effectiveness. May we lay ourselves open to the deepest challenge that is called upon us in this hour until we transcend and transform the natural.

I apologize for the lengthiness of this letter and its frankness. This letter is not meant to be judgmental or cruel. My motivation for writing it is to extend myself to you, for the purpose of nurturing you for our spiritual growth, just as you have always done so in the past. May His prevailing blood cover us, and His sufficient grace supply us.

Always respectfully yours as a faithful brother in Christ,

William E. Mallon

.........................

[Ohio]

Those who desire to know the true "character" of the LSM leadership today, would do well to read brother Wm. Mallon's letter above in full, by following the link "arrow" at the top of the post.

His detailed and sober letter to Witness Lee some 30 years ago exposes the true nature of LSM's operatives, which is carefully hidden from all LC members.

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lest anyone think that I don't esteem brother Darby ... there is nearly none in all the kingdom of God who can match his labors and sacrifices for the Lord. I have read that he was the sweetest of shepherds, most personable, to all the new believers. His difficult writings do not portray this side of him. His habit was to spend all his afternoons visiting God's children.

Others have also have wondered if not brother Darby's "rougher edges" might not have been softened thru marriage, in particular to the distinguished Lady Powerscourt, who was much used by the Lord to gather the early Brethren together.

...................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

.............

[aron]

Please note the bolded part at the end; quite revealing. The teachings may not of themselves be wrong, but they are used to create a system of error.

Originally Posted by Hope

I believe we need to consider the character and behavior of the leadership in the LCS/LSM but even a greater matter is to consider the system of error itself. . . on the forum, I have read many items which I believe describe part of the system of error. The character and behavior of many of the leadership is "the trickery of men and craftiness in deceitful scheming." I believe to understand the scope of the "system of error" we should consider the passage as starting in Ephesians 3 verse nine. . .

Eph 3:8-11
8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; 10 in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,.

Originally Posted by Hope

The passage begins with the two fold commission of Paul. (1) To proclaim the unsearchable riches of Christ and (2)to bring to light or to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery. God does have an administration. He has His way of doing things, of carrying out His purpose. The system of error is in contrast with one or both of Paul's two fold commission. The LCS/LSM is guilty on both counts. They have replaced the riches of Christ in the experience of the saints and have invented many new ways to carry out God's plan and purpose. . .

Eph 4:11-16
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Originally Posted by Hope

The system of error produces winds and waves of doctrines, (teachings). It does not say false teachings or heresies but just doctrines. The individual doctrines may not necessarity be in error but are used to create a system. I do believe that usually at least some of these teachings are not according to God or His administration because of the counter in the passage of "speaking the truth in love."

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Against the Practice of Exclusivism

Exclusive Teaching concerning Ministry—The Unique Minister of the Age

The term “Minister of the Age” did not enter the vocabulary of the Lord’s recovery until after Brother Lee’s departure in 1997. Since then it has been a prominent theme in the “blended co-workers’” teaching. Indeed it is the cornerstone of their theological system. They explain this unique minister’s role,7 “In every age there is a particular vision…released not through many persons but through one person who is the minister of that age.” Bob Danker elaborates concerning this “Minister” (or master builder). He says,8 “In every age God does not give His vision…to two men; He gives it to only one man. [That] man…is the wise master builder; he is the minister of the age. In God’s unique work of building… only the word of the master builder counts…God does not give other ministers their own light and revelation. All the ministers in a particular age must…speak only the contents of the unique vision…This is a strong principle that holds in every age, including today.”

....

Ministerial Succession—Sequential Ministers of the Age? —What Does Scripture Say?

The “blended brothers” dogmatically assert this “strong principle…holds…today.” They allege that God has only one unique oracle on earth—the “Minister of the Age.” In their view, today “only the word of the master builder counts. ” Yet “what does the Scripture say?” (Gal. 4:30) It says that Christ is the Minister and Mediator of the new covenant (Heb. 8:2, 6.) Hence Jesus Christ is the unique “Minister of the Age,” the entire age of grace! Beyond this, no term similar to “Minister of the Age” appears in the New Testament. The New Testament contains no explicit teaching about “ministerial succession;” We see neither prescriptive teaching, nor descriptive examples of a sequence of “Ministers of the Age.” On the contrary, Scripture indicates the one New Testament ministry is carried by various ministers each having a portion of “this ministry” (Acts 1:17, 25.) The Apostle Paul says “We” (plural, the many ministers) have “this (singular, one New Testament) ministry” (2 Cor. 4:1.) Consistent with this Brother Lee clearly taught that this “unique ministry [is] common to all the apostles of Christ.” (2 Cor. 4:1, note) The sole basis for the “blended co-workers’” teaching appears to be W. Lee’s sharing to a select group of Taiwan brothers in 1986. Significantly these messages were never published in English as long as Brother Lee lived. However, since his passing, the “blended co-workers” have emphasized and elaborated upon this theme making it the centerpiece of their ministry. In doing so they have extrapolated “beyond what has been written” in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6) and given this extra-biblical teaching an unwarranted prominence.

Watchman Nee never used the term “Minister of the Age.” Rather he envisioned the “ministry of the age” as the common portion of many ministers. Hence he wrote,11 “When God chooses a man to be a minister, and his revelation reaches a certain height, he will become the ministry of the word in that age…In every age God chooses great vessels to meet His need…In a certain age God may choose five brothers to see what others in the same age have not seen.”] His phrase “God may choose five brothers” shows Brother Nee did not dogmatically assert that only one person is God’s oracle in an era. Yet, in their teaching, the blended brothers have chosen to override the Scriptures’ clear teaching of multiple ministers (and W. Nee’s word) with their extra-biblical teaching of one Minister of the Age. Thus Brother Ed Marks claims,12 “The ministry of the age subsumes and includes all the foregoing ministries. The whole New Testament ministry has been recovered…” LSM’s Benson Phillips goes further to claim Brother Lee’s ministry is13 “the New Testament ministry in all its fullness.” The “blended co-workers’” “minister of the age” teaching is being used to “trump” the Scriptural view (and Watchman Nee’s teaching) of multiple ministers sharing the New Testament ministry...

Nigel Tomes
Toronto, Canada
April 2007
.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am not a defender of sin. But when it comes to the posture of Christians toward any people, there is a requirement for love...



But I believe that it is a correct thing to say that when it comes to the sins of the world, God is the judge — not me. My part is to represent God to the world — including the sinners. And God has, through Jesus, defined that representation as loving them in the way that I love myself. In association with loving God.

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[aron]

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Originally Posted by Unregistered

When I first touched the LC, I was awed by how it seemed to reach out to those in the "highways and byways"--the cast-offs of society, the unwashed--and invite them in to the Love Feasts, etc. There was a genuine desire to share Christ with everyone, but particularly those in "low places". Somehow, somewhere, the focus changed completely. There is now an attempt to capture the fragrant young--the future high-salaried college kids with absolutely NO desire to minister to oh, say, a truck stop or nursing home--let's leave THOSE tasks to the Pentecostals, Methodists, and Baptists. THOSE people bring problems into the church that might have to be dealt with-such as addiction, dysfunctional homes, etc. THOSE people will not be able to give as much. THOSE people may not be smart enough to fully comprehend the wording of our writings (tripartite, intrinsic) and, therefore, be unable to echo it back. The sick--if popular (and that is the REAL word for it, not just "hot for the ministry" because I have seen those who are totally FOR the ministry be ignored because they lack charisma) get lots of attention, prayers, and food. The old--even those who have spent their lives under the ministry--are given little attention.

Pastoral care is said to be a "body matter"--that EVERYONE is responsible for ministering one to another. The problem is that if EVERYONE is responsible, no one does it. Tasks that are not specifically assigned to someone are most often left undone. In the denominations, the "despised" clergy is assigned this task and, therefore, show up and pray and then put the "bereavement committee" or the "food committee" on task taking care of everyone--popular or unpopular. The leadership of the local churches are not tasked with caring for the sick, the dying, the fading-in-faith, etc. It has been my observation that they are not assigned this task--it is, after all, a "body matter", and we know what that means.... It was not always this way. Many are grieved to see the change.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Canfield

Regarding the Ground of Locality
...
To be practically in the oneness requires us to receive all genuine believers, without making issues over teachings, ministries, etc. Our focus must be on Christ Himself, not on such minor points; only when we have this proper focus can we experience the real oneness. In contrast, if we are not clear concerning the oneness, then the ground of locality becomes something vain.

The Normal Christian Church Life was one of the first books published among us on the practical church life, and it deals in part with the matter of the local ground. Witness Lee calls it Watchman Nee’s “main work concerning the practicality of the church” (Watchman Nee: A Seer, p. 258). How striking it is to note, given our history, that in his “Preface” and “Introduction” to such a book, Brother Nee warned repeatedly against taking these teachings as a mere form; several times he expressed his deep concern that some would attempt to use them merely as a method, apart from a vital relationship with the Lord:

One of the prayers I have offered in connection with this book is that the Lord should keep it from those who would oppose and use it as a chart for attack, and also from those who agree and would use it as a manual for service. I dread the latter far more than the former.
— page 7

It is wearisome to me, if not actually repulsive, to talk with those who aim at outward correctness, while they care little for that which is vital and spiritual.
— pages 12-13

We hope that this book will not fall into the hands of those who wish to improve their work by improving their methods, without adjusting their relationship to the Lord.
— page 13

May none of my readers use this book as a basis for external adjustments in their work, without letting the cross deal drastically with their natural life.
— page 18 (Living Stream Ministry, 1991 printing)

Tragically, these words have proven to be prophetic among us. We did indeed take the teaching of the ground of locality as a method, as a thing to hold onto in itself, without sufficient regard for the spiritual reality needed to support it in life. In fact, it became something of an idol among us, and as such it needed to be torn down, so that we could no longer practice it apart from a living relationship with Christ.

This is just like the case of the bronze serpent in the Old Testament. It was really something provided by God to meet His people’s need (Num. 21:5-9), but eventually it became an idol that had to be crushed (2 Kings 18:4). In fact, as J.N. Darby points out, almost every spiritual thing the Lord gave to His people, they turned into an idol of one sort or another. Whether it was the law, or the temple, or the priesthood, they took it as something that had value in and of itself, apart from God. In doing so, they made these spiritual things worthless—things which God had given to His people in order to connect them with Himself, not to separate them from Him—and brought themselves under God’s judgment. He is indeed a jealous God, and hates that we would attach ourselves to anything, even good and spiritual things, apart from Himself.

Is the ground of locality biblical? Indeed it is. Is it something good, important, and even vital to the proper, New Testament church life? Certainly. But, if we come to trust in the ground in and of itself, so that we no longer depend on God as the real source of our oneness, then that misplaced trust needs to be dealt with until we repent and once again come back to God so that we may fulfill His desire...


David Canfield
Chicago

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[Betsy]

Thought I hit the mother lode last night in Our Journey to Elden in 1971

Originally Posted by Elden1971

And the teachers of this partial rapture theory, do not*they*expect to be "caught up" when Christ comes? If so, what does this argue? Just this, that they are self-righteous; that they consider themselves superior to other believers. If I know myself at all — my many failures, my treacherous heart, my utter unworthiness — can I claim the right to anything but that of confessing myself*a sinner saved by grace?
Yes, reader, you may be sure there is a subtle self-conceit underlying this teaching, which makes a privileged class among the saints, with the secret self-confidence that the teachers and followers of the doctrine are among the worthy ones, the faithful, the overcomers.
Yes; that is the word they catch at, "Overcomer." Overcomers, they say, will be caught up, for to such alone is the promise made of being kept from "the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3 : 10). Granted: but who are the overcomers? Are they a special class in the Church — saints of a superior order, or "disciples indeed," in a sense in which all believers are not? Let us see.
We turn to*1 John 5 : 4,*5*: "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Here we have the divine description of an overcomer: it is the faith in every one that is born of God — faith in Jesus the Son of God — that overcomes the vast hostile system called "the world."
And mark, it is not what some erroneously term "holiness by faith" — the claiming by faith of a "second blessing," "clean heart," "perfect love," "cleansing from inbred sin," etc., but faith in Christ — just such a faith as all true Christians possess. He that overcometh is he "that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." So it*is*the "overcomer" that will go when Jesus comes, but the term applies to all believers in Christ — not to a select class among them. And so in*Rev. 2*and*3, the overcomer is the*true*believer, as distinguished from the false. Else what could be made of the promises to such? "He shall eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev. 2:7). Is this to be the portion of special saints, or for all true believers? Again, "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11); will some Christians not be overcomers and be hurt of the second death? Just to ask the question is to answer it — No! And so with all the promises in these addresses to the seven churches ; they are not all the same, but are all beautifully suited to the condition and circumstances of each assembly addressed. All true believers shall partake of the promised blessings, for all shall in the end be overcomers, not by any superior degree of holiness or development of the life of Christ in them, but through the overcoming on the cross of Him in whom we are complete (Col. 2:10), even as it is written, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 15 : 57); and again, "We are more than conquerors through Him that loveth us" (Rom. 8 : 37). Hallelujah to His name!
Now, let us see for a little what more is involved in this error at which we have been looking.
It involves the error of a divided Christ. The expression, "The Christ," includes, in such passages as*1 Cor. 12:12, not only Christ the Head, but also His body, the Church. If, at His coming, a part only of that body is taken and the other left, what becomes of the unity of this mystical body? (See*1 Cor. 12 : 25.) And again, the Church, the body, composed of all believers, is Christ's bride. Will He have a bride with members lacking — a body incomplete, in heaven — some members in glory and glorious with Him above, and others on earth suffering in the great tribulation? Is it not written, "Whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it" (1 Cor. 12:26)? How does this comport with the theory of a partial rapture? Will the members caught up at the coming suffer in heaven with their fellow-members left behind on earth?

[Betsy]

And from Aron: (don't know how to quote farm a different thread)

Mr. Nee may have sincerely believed that his organizational arrangement would better serve the Lord to evangelize China, and beyond. But I argue his scheme was as Peter's: "Lord, it is good for us to be here. Let's build three booths: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. I will set up a gate and I and James and John will only allow those whom we deem proper to come in and fellowship. On our terms."
(tsk tsk, the bold part is adding words to scripture, I think?)

God has His terms. His term is His Son, Jesus. We also have our terms, in which we continually attempt an overlay. To the extent we stubbornly continue to do this, we suffer commensurate loss. Jesus left us with His Spirit of grace. To look to any earthly leader as the mediatory channel of said grace is to arguably miss the point.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Renee

And from Aron: (don't know how to quote farm a different thread)

Actually, it's quite easy to quote from another thread. Simply go to the post you want to quote from, hit the "Quote" button, then highlight the portion you want, then right click on your mouse and choose COPY, leaving the "[.QUOTE=Poster;49813]" at the beginning and the [./QUOTE] at the end. Then go to the particular thread, then insert the quoted portion by right clicking on your mouse and choose "PASTE".

Maybe somebody else can explain this a little better!

-

[Betsy]

Thanks, I shoulda known -- change a bit for iPad and it's done.

[aron]

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Originally Posted by brad

The history of the movement we're usually told leaves out a lot of stuff discussed here and elsewhere on the web that i think if any of us knew originally we wouldn't have gotten involved.


... the list goes on

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[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

But without having a LCM present with their specially-prepared, bleached flour chalupa (minus the beans and lettuce, etc.) and goblet of wine, sitting in their circle, singing a collection of songs that always follows a specific pattern (only noteworthy because of their disdain for tradition), they believe that the church is not present.

And if the church is not present, then the Lord can't be moving there.

Funny how in their view the Lord seems to only work in a very few who essentially interact with no one but themselves.

And on a related note:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

She was pretty adamant about going to the Christians on Campus "branch" of her church. This, naturally, disappointed me greatly. By this point I had grown to care very much about her, and it always bugged me that we had never been to church together. We had talked about it every now and then, and I figured college would be the perfect opportunity to do so. Thus, her persistent stance on joining Christians on Campus stung even more.

Since then the differences between our churches has grown more and more apparent. She has always been taught that people who are in denominational churches (which I don't happen to be, but it's really all the same to them regardless) are dividing the church and whatnot. However, when I brought her to the All Campus Worship event to which nearly every single campus ministry was represented and acknowledged (except, of course, for hers). This bothered her greatly. For all the preaching of oneness and unity, why was it that her church did not go to this ALL CAMPUS worship event? After all, it was the perfect opportunity to display the oneness of all believers in Christ. . .

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered
Since then the differences between our churches has grown more and more apparent. She has always been taught that people who are in denominational churches (which I don't happen to be, but it's really all the same to them regardless) are dividing the church and whatnot. However, when I brought her to the All Campus Worship event to which nearly every single campus ministry was represented and acknowledged (except, of course, for hers). This bothered her greatly. For all the preaching of oneness and unity, why was it that her church did not go to this ALL CAMPUS worship event? After all, it was the perfect opportunity to display the oneness of all believers in Christ. . .

When someone from the LCM says something like that, I just want to scream "Did you just hear yourself!!??!?!"

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by OBW

Hey guys. Rather than responding based on who we think the writer may be, respond to what they say. It is irrelevant who says what. If they make certain errors, it is what it is no matter who they are. If they speak the truth, again it does not matter who they are.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

In 1973 a responsible elder told of a story of a happening in China. A brother with the gift of healing was much used in the church and my understanding was there was no "funny" things associated with his gift. Sick people came to him and he prayed for them and they got healed. Sounds great and to my understanding it was great.

Then the "leading ones" felt to ask him to curb his gift which he obeyed.
Some time later there came a time when they wished for some help from the gifted brother and asked him to again function with his gift.

My question is did anybody hear if the healings reappeared? My poor feeling is that you start physically messing with the spiritual and all falls down but I am open to good news if I am wrong. And of course I am talking about a long time ago. Not just because I was raised in Pentecost but the Bible clearly said Jesus healed all that came to Him. Peter and John healed. Paul healed, the book of James speaks of healings, but my United Methodist minister uncle sternly said the day of miracles is over.

In the LC we mainly prayed for leading ones and to my knowledge, they all died. I really do believe our discriminating prayers for the "heads" screwed up the desire of the Lord to answer.

Lisbon

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The good news is that God has spoken to sinful, errant man.
The bad news is that God has spoken to sinful, errant man.

Those who question the accuracy and inerrant nature of the Bible are barking up the wrong tree. The accuracy and inerrant nature were verified and confirmed long, long ago by many learned and wise men, some who were within a generation or two of the original authors. There is very little doubt that these men had extremely accurate and complete copies of the original writings. It was with these accurate and complete copies that many of the early church "fathers" produced some of the earliest polemics and creeds.

Over the centuries have sinful, errant men taken the pure and inerrant teaching and message of the Word of God and corrupted it, twisting it for their own evil and selfish purposes? Sure. Have false teachers taken the pure and inerrant teaching and message of the Word of God, adding to it when they wished, taking away from it when they wished, all to bring more sinful, errant men under their power and spell, sometimes tickling their ears, and other times beating them over the head with it? Absolutely.

God has chosen to speak to sinful, errant man. He spoke to man before he fell and became sinful and errant, and he spoke to man after he fell and became sinful and errant. He spoke to people, and to his chosen people, in various ways. He even allowed a Donkey to speak one time. "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son" (Heb 1:2) It is very likely that when the writer of Hebrews penned this the Lord Jesus was already resurrected and not physically ministering on the earth. So "has spoken to us" meant something that was in writing, written down and passed down to all the Christians. This was the Gospel, the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles and Revelation - The New Testament. This is how the Son speaks to us in these days. We can ignore it if we so choose, but we do so at great peril I believe. We can also choose to deny that the Bible is actually the Word of God, and we do this at an even greater peril.

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? Romans 10:14 If we deny the Bible is the Word of God we leave God with no way to speak to us in these last days. The next time that God comes out of the clouds with a thundering voice to speak to man it will be too late for many. The Son of Man will be coming in power and glory with his angels. Then many will be weeping and will remember what God has spoken to man for centuries and millennia in His Word - The Holy Bible.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by awareness

My sister hates snakes. One morning she got up, went to the bathrm, and walked into the kitchen to find two 6 ft snakes coiled up and wrapped around each other, obviously gettin it on. That was it. She was trapped in her bedrm.

She called her alcoholic neighbor, who came and cut their heads off with a shovel. So sad. They were harmless rat snakes.

Humans are animals, and killers. Like the dentist that recently killed Cecil the Lion, for the sport of it. I hope charges are brought up against him. If they ever find him. He has lots of death threats out against him. I understand the emotional charge of it all but is killing because of killing right?

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe the general feeling is loving the brothers and sisters in the local churches, but hating the system. A system that is contingent on the existence of deputy authority; a teaching and practice that erodes any humility and instills pride. A pride that disables good brothers from having to apologize and say they're sorry.

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[testallthings]

Speaking the Truth
in Love

John Ingalls

A True Account of
Events and Concerns Related to
The Local Churches
1987 – 1989


Copyright © 1990



THE CONDITION OF THE CHURCH IN ANAHEIM
October – November 1987

During this time we were concerned for the saints in Anaheim and the condition of the church. We had just concluded the gospel “blitz” in Anaheim during the summer training of 1987, when over 3700 were baptized through knocking on doors. There had been a strong effort to follow up the 800 or more who were baptized in Anaheim (the remainder lived in other cities of Orange County and were being cared for by other churches). There were grand scale preparation and follow-up plans with the activity headed up by two brothers, appointed by the church, who gave themselves to the work. The elders also gave themselves to the labor, though I myself was much restricted by my health. But to our dismay many of those who were baptized had disappeared, many rejected any further visits, and the remaining fruit was sparse. Some discouragement set in.

To compound the problem, a good number of saints had reacted against the practice of door-knocking, not openly or actively, but by simply withdrawing from the church life and the meetings. They felt that if that was the way the church was going to take, it was not for them. And indeed the meetings were filled with door-knocking testimonies, and anyone who desired to speak anything else felt he would be out of the “flow”. In this kind of atmosphere the life in the church ebbed even further from the already low state. We felt that the vision of Christ and the church that had so captured us at the beginning, over two decades ago, had grown dim or had vanished altogether. Those who were still with us in the church were either doing their best to carry out the visitation of the new ones with the methodology of the new way, or simply felt left out since they either lacked the heart or could not match the demands. All were desperately lacking the nourishing supply of the living word, of the Spirit, and of life. Therefore we were burdened to give some messages on the Lord’s Day to try to renew the vision and supply life. We spoke a number of times from Colossians and Revelation, emphasizing Christ as the tree of life. At one point one of the brothers who was taking the lead among the young people, Chris Leu, said to me, "John, you are going to be in trouble!” He indicated that Brother Lee and other leading ones would not be happy with me, because I was not speaking the same thing as Brother Lee in Taiwan concerning the new way. I told him I could not help that; I had to discharge my burden to meet the need. If for that reason I would be in trouble, then I must be in trouble. We had to care for the saints in our locality regardless of what was being spoken in Taiwan or done in other places. This experience pointed up a fallacy among us – the prevalent concept that everyone must speak what Brother Lee was speaking and conform universally, regardless of the local need. We were aware of that but could not conscientiously follow.

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Hello dear ones,

Thanks to all of you who have been fellowshipping with me here this past month or so since I have returned. Like some before me (such as dear brother Toledo) I have sadly come to the conclusion that not much usefulness comes out of the discussions here. I am now seeing that the best information out on the Web regarding Witness Lee, the Blended Brothers, and the Local Churches is the well-researched information such as Steve Isitt's web sites, Nigel Tomes' articles, The Thread of Gold, A Future and A Hope, etc. One useful purpose of this forum is to alert us when new articles and books such as the above are available.

Beyond the fellowship with some who have touched the LC and are asking questions, I don't see much value in spending my time here. It is time to really put my tag line into practice "The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Something really precious has been built up between all of us. There is so much else that I feel called of the Lord to get involved with. The fields truly are white for the harvest! So many precious things are happening all around us! For those with the grace and the leading to carry on here, may the Lord richly bless you.

If our paths do not cross again in this present age, I know I will see you all on that glorious day when our Lord and Savior returns and calls us to Himself.

Much grace, peace, and love be with you all. I love you all in Christ.

..........................................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I make no apologies. If you want local church members to post here then expect local church answers.

It's not the model "I prefer". It's the model revealed in the Bible. Time and time again when the local church is mentioned it is by the locality (the city name etc). You cannot find a denominational or a hierarchical structured model anywhere in the Bible. I do the right thing and request others to present to me these "different models" and no one can show me.

Please listen to yourself. Trying to argue that such an important matter as the church is not something Jesus revealed to us.

Even the Roman Catholics can tell me what the church is and where it is, better than you all can. They can point to it and say "here it is".

And many of you supposedly spent time in the "local churches" under Lee's ministry.

I think not, you would have a better understanding of these things, or it seems you were all "sleeping at the back" as one other poster put it.

Or you are merely recounting negative experiences that happened decades ago in the 70's and 80's. Things seem to have moved on, the LR has moved on. Welcome to the 21st Century.

The things done in the name of Christianity by the denominations has far exceeded any negative thing that the LR has ever done as far as I see it. Inquisitions, murders, etc.

Yet you are all defending them as if they are the exemplar of what church is all about.

Hopefully my post has demonstrated enough "independent thought" for my little brainwashed mind .

...............................................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...
Let me relay one "shocking development" I came across in ~2003. I was reading Nee's classic The Normal Christian Church Life with a few brothers. I could not believe my eyes! Page by page we were comparing Nee's early teachings with the practices of Witness Lee and now the Blended Brothers. Oh what a shocker! Nothing matched! Not even by a mile.

Could you believe that most Baptist denominations were closer to Nee's teachings than LSM was? And all along we had thought that Nee's book was a guide of sorts to LSM and the LC's.

...

..,..................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

...

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.

-

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When I fellowshipped with Catholics I didn't talk about the Pope. When I fellowship with Jews I focus on the OT, not the new. When I fellowship with unbelievers I may focus on history or Scientific observations. I think the principle is the same. We have a lot of positive things in common with everyone, including those that meet with the LRC. I don't think you are helping anyone by harping on WL. The exception of course is if they want to know. In our case it helps us to understand what was otherwise a puzzle we couldn't figure out. But until the Lord brings someone to the point where they want to understand WL then I think it is counterproductive to raise the issue. In the LRC they are taught that ex members are bitter and miserable and want to spread poison. You feed into that if you are the one pushing the negative agenda. On the other hand if your focus is on genuine fellowship eventually, in good time, the subject of why you left, or why you don't meet with the LRC or some contradiction they see in their own experience will come up.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

This may be the wrong thread for this, but I can't bear to slog through Nigel Tomes' tedious articles anymore. I usually feel like he intentionally tries to misunderstand or misrepresent certain things, not realizing that in the eyes of LCers, this kind of misunderstanding or misrepresentation only justifies their stance and invalidates everything else that he might have to say.

My conclusion about "man becoming God in life and nature but not in the Godhead" is that it is an unnecessarily "shocking" (and possibly in-artful) way of expressing the idea that the believer is born of God with God's life to grow up into that life without inviolating or compromising God's "God-ness."

I know from experience that rejecting this idea out of hand--without an actual attempt at understanding what is meant--completely turns off many LCers.

................................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Terry

This is not 19th century America where one can place a stake in the ground to claim as his own land!
Among some circles there is too much talking and not enough action. If a locality claims to be meeting on the ground of oneness, please show by your actions you are one in receiving fellow believers. Can a locality emphatically receive as Paul writes in Romans 15:7?

Terry

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[testallthings]

THE TRUTH vs OUR PRESENT PRACTICE

1. The WORD is our only supreme authority. All the saints should be encouraged to love it and to feel free to seek life and light from it, and to gain skill in handling and interpreting it.

OUR PRACTICE: The Word should be read in the Recovery Version and can be understood properly only with the use of the foot-notes and life-studies. No one would dare to suggest another view, nor could anyone see light beyond what has been given by “the ministry.”

2. The MINISTRY is the dispensing of Christ into His saints for the building up of the church. All who minister life and the revelation of God’s New Testament economy are ministers and have a part in this ministry.

OUR PRACTICE: In our present vocabulary and practice the “ministry” is Witness Lee and whatever he has written or says, and the way he says it. Anything written or spoken by another person, especially if he is not in the “recovery” is “old” or taking us backward.

3. SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY is endowed upon a person by the Lord. It will be perceived and realized in the saints and substantiated by the Lord. “We should never say so much as one word on behalf of our own authority; rather let us give people the liberty. The more God entrusts to us, the more liberty we grant people.” Spiritual Authority by W. Nee, p. 121

OUR PRACTICE: In nearly every conference or training we observe a declaration of authority. Old Testament cases of disobedience are cited, death and negativism are ascribed to any who do not agree and respond positively. Is this not an insidious form of control?

4. THE CHURCH ground implies that we are open to receive and accept all genuine believers. We should not demand certain practices or separate those who have a different feeling about matters not of the “faith.”

OUR PRACTICE: Those who have any reservation about any of our practices are “unclear”, “do not see the vision” and remain outsiders. Our ways are “God given” and our practices are, “God ordained.” This implicitly condemns all (those in the church or outside of it) who don’t fully embrace them. In this way we have thoroughly isolated ourselves from all other Christians.


Local Church Discussions > Writings of Former Members > Speaking the Truth in Love - John Ingalls

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.

My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here. I find this rather ironic and amusing, because supposedly we or I are "Lee followers". The meetings have always uplifted Christ, there is really no other name mentioned as frequently.

So I am thinking some of your perspectives are somewhat wrong and perhaps outdated. Just as my perspectives are ignorant of past history. This was one of the reasons I decided to come to the forum. Not to persuade anyone to do anything, but to highlight that things aren't possibly as bad as made out, or as widespread.

I could recount numerous denominational experiences that were just as bad, or worse. So in my experience the LR is an improvement. The corruptions of greed, money, power, control, can affect any human being.

I would encourage people to remember to keep the focus on Christ. Holding onto the Head, but also not forgetting the Body.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Absolutely not!

I constantly distinguish between LSM and its leaders and the precious saints in the LC's.

Read my posts.

I am here posting because the unrighteousness of evil leaders in the LC system has hurt many precious children of God.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I propose a revision to the Recovery Version of the Bible based upon the proper way to pray the Lord's prayer, or at least the way they actually pray it in the Local Church. It is much better than the one used in the denominations, and it goes something like this:

Disciples: "Lord, teach us to pray".
Jesus: "Ok, I will tell you, and the more you say amen the more you will exercise your spirit and don't forget to "chew" it by repeating it over and over, OK?", here we go:

Our Father in heaven, amen
hallowed be amen your name. amen
Your kingdom amen
Your kingdom amen
Your kingdom amen
Your kingdom amen
YOUR KINGDOM!! Hallelujah amen
Your kingdom amen
Your kingdom amen
come, amen
your will be done, amen
on earth as it is in heaven. amen
Give us this day our daily bread, amen
and forgive us our debts, amen
as we also have forgiven our debtors. amen
And lead us not amen
And lead us not amen
And lead us not amen
And lead us not amen
into temptation, amen
but deliver us amen
but deliver us amen
but deliver us amen
but deliver us amen
from evil. amen amen AMEN
your will be done, amen
Oh Lord your will be done, amen
YOUR KINGDOM!! amen


The funny amen, thing amen, is amen, that amen they amen think amen that amen this amen is amen how amen God amen wants amen us amen to amen pray amen!!.

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[aron]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Perhaps the gravest failure we have made as a people has been in dissociating ourselves in thought from the great mass of our fellow-Christians. It is a common thing to make a distinction between “Christians in systems and believers gathered to or in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” To consider this a special privilege is but spiritual pride of the most elusive kind.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by OBW

Almighty God

You alone can bring into order the unruly wills and affections of sinners

Grant your people grace to love what you command and desire what you promise

That, among the swift and varied changes of the world, our hearts may surely there be fixed where true joys are to be found

Through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit

One God, now and for ever

Amen

(BCP)

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the years between the death of Lee and his own quarantine, Titus Chu had his army of full-timers reading and re-reading the books of Nee and Lee to expose the many errors in the Blended Brothers practices. These same errors existed while Lee was alive, but of course TC dared not to say a thing.

In our local elders and deacons meetings we read thru Nee's Normal Christian Church Life together. I had somehow naively thought that this book was the definitive "blueprint" for our practice of the churchlife and the work of ministry. Was I wrong! What we had at LSM had nothing to do with Nee's writing. Page after page of Nee's writing was violated by the practices of LSM, which btw did not start with the Blendeds, but with Lee decades earlier. What Lee developed at LSM had nothing to do with either the Bible nor with Nee's book.

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no way I would accept that Jesus was merely an emissary, acting in another's stead, as the centurion did. That would make Jesus as the created angels, yet oftentimes He did act as an emissary or messenger, and then was called the Angel of Jehovah.

Perhaps because I live in Jehovah Witness country, I have formed decisive opinions concerning Jesus and Yahweh / Jehovah. From these I will never back down. As you have said, Jesus is Jehovah made flesh. Amen to that! Jesus is the eternal Logos, who was in eternity with God. The Logos Word was with God, and the Logos Word was God. That's the greatest mystery!

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Exodus16

"George Müller read the Old and New Testament a hundred times during his lifetime... I hope that you, like Mr. Müller, can read through the Bible a hundred times during your lifetime. If a person wants to read through the Bible a hundred times, assuming that he lives for fifty years as a Christian, he will have to go through the whole Bible at least twice a year. You can see why you need to spend much time to read the Bible."
It takes approximately 15minutes daily to read through the Bible in one year. - This has been pounded into my head by my father. Unfortunately, I am not that faithful.
This whole thread has been so inspiring!

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The senior pastor at our church likes to say near the end of his messages, “I’m almost done.” He then adds, “By the way, what does it mean when a pastor says he’s almost done?” To which we all answer with relish, “Nothing!” “Right," he says. "Absolutely nothing."

So it is sometimes with “summing up,” which can continue indefinitely as inspiration comes. So please forgive me.

I’d like to talk a little about this board, the history of it, and how things have progressed over the years. Sometime around 2006 I stumbled onto an LC forum site run by The Bereans, a quirky group of cult-warriors based in, of all places, the Philippines. They meant well, but they never really “got” the LC. Their analysis of the LC was superficial and rather phoned-in. One of their top dogs was always acting as if LCers weren’t true Christians because their doctrine of the Trinity was unorthodox. That was pretty much the extent of his analysis. But they did provide a forum in which some of us found refuge and comfort.

It was the Wild West back then. Feelings were raw, manners were optional, and LC loyalists were much more numerous and bold. Opinions flew like arrows at an Indian uprising. At some point the La Palma Poobahs issued a papal bull “advising” members to steer clear of places of “death” like ours, and over time their appearances dwindled.

UntoHim was a moderator there and, being frustrated with the Bereans cluelessness, got the call to start an independent LC debate forum, the result of which is where you find yourself, Local Church Discussions. At first most did not migrate to LCD. But at some point the Bereans converted to new forum software and did not bother to transfer all the old posts from the old software. This was unfortunate, but served as a catalyst for people to move to this board.

At one point UntoHim talked me into being a moderator, which I felt to do for awhile, and was probably one of the most unpopular mods ever, being, probably, too opinionated for such a job. I also helped redesign the look of the site and codify its mission statement.

Eventually, I consciously tried to distance myself from the board, feeling that doing so was a necessary growth phase for me. But I do enjoy posting and feel confident now that the Lord is generally pleased with my participation most of the time. I post with the hope that my experiences might help people and challenge the LC leadership to do better. Writing is always therapeutic, and God gave me a knack for it. Sometimes I think one reason he did was just so I would post here.

One thing I’ve witnessed is how mellower we’ve all grown over time. Of course, we are all older, but also I feel we’ve each in his or her own way learned to listen to the Lord more and participate here as a service to him. I think most of us “get” now that people are watching, that we post for others as well as ourselves, and that rancor is usually unproductive anyway. Posting here has over time become a serious, though still informal, ministry for many of us. We have no leader, really, except the Holy Spirit, but he has slowly made us one. We still sometimes disagree, but less frequently make issues of it. I’ve never met anyone face-to-face, except Jane Anderson, though I’ve spoken with several brothers on the phone. I recommend getting in contact with each other. I always understand where people are coming from better when I’ve heard them speak.

If you are new here, realize that this place took time to build. Some planted, some watered, but God made it grow. The Blendeds may still view it as a devil’s lair, but it’s really just a place without which many would still be struggling on their own to find peace and clarity about their LC experiences. And take it from someone who knows, that’s a lonely place to exist.

I’m almost done. By the way, what does that mean? Right. Absolutely nothing.

So nearing the tenth anniversary of my first encounter with the Bereans site let me say this. I do not know what my state of mind would be if some of you had not had the courage to start conversing online with one another years ago, and if UntoHim had not been willing to stick his neck out and start this site. Not only do I not know, it's hard to imagine, because I just don't think the way I used to. Still, I remember enough to know I should be grateful for the peace and clarity the Lord has seen fit to grant me with your help.

To LCers, I hold no grudge, and appreciate your love for the Lord. To LC leaders, that little voice inside just might be the Lord telling you something. Try to listen to it and may you have the courage to obey it.

It is my hope and prayer that each of you know the peace, hope and purpose of God’s true plan for you; that you buy the field of obedience to get the treasure hidden there; that you learn to discern the Shepherd's voice. I know this forum can help. Just try not to mind the occasional arrow.

Thanks,

Igzy

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

SHEMA ISRAEL ! ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD!
O HEAR ISRAEL! THE LORD IS OUR GOD. THE LORD IS ONE.


BARUCH HA SHEM K'VOD MALKHUTO L'OLAM VA'ED
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF HIS GLORIOUS KINGDOM FOREVER AND EVER.

BARUCH HA SHEM HA MESSHIAH YAHUSHUAH. BARUCH HA SHEM ADONAI ECHAD.
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF MESSIAH JESUS. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD (THE LORD IS ONE.)

I attended a Messianic Jewish fellowship/synogague/church for a couple of years back in the 90s.

I learned a little Hebrew. I loved the singing but the service otherwise was as dead as a doorknob.

Sometimes I run across Jewish people who are selling their stuff at kiosks at the mall. So I greet them with the SHEMA (Deuteronomy 4:6-9). They get all excited and we sing it together. Great testimony eh???

I tell them even though they might not believe and follow Yahshuah, I love the God of ABRAHAM, ISSAC, AND JACOB. I don't even know if they ever hear anything I say about Yahshuah to them, they're are just beside themselves that I greet them in Hebrew and with the Shema prayer.

REMEMBER EVERYONE....
GOD IS LOVE !

BLESSINGS,
Carol

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Zhang Yinzian was a nun who recalls events of that time. The account is familiar to this thread. Here are some excerpts from an interview with her:

"The chapel was sealed and no one was allowed to enter. After foreigners left, everyone at the church had to go through a political review process. Both laity and clergy were scared and quit in droves. They answered the government's call and went home to farm. Some openly renounced the church."

"When we left the church, we weren't allowed to bring anything with us. We walked all the way to the village, and before we even had a drink of water, the local leaders dragged us to a public denunciation meeting. They paraded us around in the village, along with some Buddhist monks and nuns, Taoist priests, and several leaders of the local Protestant churches. We were ordered to stand in three rows in front of a stage. We faced hundreds of villagers with raised fists shouting revolutionary slogans. Some spat at us. Such hatred. As the leader worked up the crowd a peasant activist came up and slapped Bishop Liu on the face. My aunt stepped forward, "How dare you slap him." The activist used to be a poor farmer, and when the Communists confiscated the property of the landowners, he was one of the beneficiaries. He pointed at my aunt and yelled back, "You are a counterrevolutionary and we have defeated you. You are the lackey of the imperialists who exploited us." My aunt said, "We are not. We came from poor families and we've never exploited anybody." The activist shouted again, "You are still stubborn and won't admit your defeat. You need to be punished." Fists were raised and the crowd began chanting, "down with the counterrevolutionary nun!"

Regarding "confessions" she writes:

"We had to endure many more political meetings, but after a while the humiliating remarks or beatings didn't bother us anymore. We became smarter. We learned how to protect ourselves. All of those campaigns, whether to denounce landowners, Buddhists, Catholics, or intellectuals, were all the same. People would shout slogans---- "down with so and so!" "Beat Liu so he can never stand up!" "Long live Chairman Mao!" "Long live the Communist Party!" "Long live the victory of whatever!" --- and each time, we were made to confess. It got so we knew it by rote; all we did was change a few words."

Excerpts from "God is Red" by Liao Yiwu Page 19 and 20

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I ran across this article by R.C. Sproul written almost 30 years ago, but was struck by how much it applies to today's situation.
"contentless religion, thoughtless action, and vacuous zeal—fire without light." - Wow, does this describe today's world or what.
R.C. Sproul is a world renown Christian minister and theologian. www.ligonier.org

Burning Hearts Are Not Nourished by Empty Heads
Christianity Today 26, 100 (Sept. 3, 1982). R.C. Sproul
------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can we love what we do not understand?

What do you read first when the newspaper arrives? I dive for the sports pages—an involuntary reflex action left over from a youth spent with visions of Pittsburgh Pirates and Steelers dancing in my head. The child within me still suffers more anxiety over league standings than the Falkland Islands. Old reading habits die hard. It is the same with Christian magazines and periodicals. When I first began reading Christianity Today, two columns hooked me quickly. One was "Eutychus and His Kin," the other, "Current Religious Thought." I still go first to "Current Religious Thought," for I know I will encounter some vignettes of intellectual insight to nourish my too-empty head.

We live in what may be the most anti-intellectual period in the history of Western civilization. We are not necessarily antiacademic, antitechnological, or antiscientific. The accent is against the intellect itself. Secular culture has embraced a kind of impressionism that threatens to turn all our brains into mush, and the evangelical world has followed suit, developing an allergy to all things intellectual.

The kind of debate waged between Luther and Erasmus or Edwards and Chubb would be unacceptable today. Their reasoning was too acute, their polemics too acerbic, their critiques too rapier-like for our modern comfort zones. Debates, if they are held today, are won by charm and a benign smile rather than by lucid argument. Satire is almost extinct, the verbal gladiators who used it having perished with the fathers. To be sure, William Buckley persists, but he is an anachronism, a refurbished antique whose style is so uncommon that some mistake him for something new.

How I pine for the days of yore when Ad Leitch responded to Tillich's recasting of traditional categories of divine transcendence from "up-there" to "down-there" on the depth dimension of the Ground of Being. Does anyone remember Leitch's article in the early sixties about the impact Tillich's theology would have on church architecture? He said that instead of steeples pointing heavenward we would have to have our church services while assembled in a cavernous open pit. Our search for the Ground of Being would occur not while singing "Rise Up, O Men of God," but rather ''Go Down, Moses."

Kierkegaard, after evaluating the state of the church in nineteenth-century Europe, wrote, "My complaint is not that this age is wicked, but that it is paltry: It lacks passion." The Dane should be alive today. Passion we have —it is reason that is in eclipse. Christianity is an intellectual faith. This does not mean that it flirts with intellectualism or restricts sainthood to an elite group of gnostic eggheads. But though the Word of God is not limited to intellectuals, its content is addressed to the mind. There is a primacy of the intellect in the Christian life as well as a primacy of the heart.

How can that be? To speak of the primacy of both mind and heart sounds like a neo-orthodox creed, a dabbling in dialectics. How can two distinct things have primacy at the same time without resorting to contradiction? Must there not be one ultimate primacy, or at least a primus inter pares? We can, I think, have two primacies if they hold their primacy in different relations. The primacy of the intellect is with respect to order. The primacy of the heart is with respect to importance.

We know that the disposition of the heart toward Christ is of supreme importance. If our doctrine is correct, our intellectual understanding of theology impeccable, it is to no avail if our heart is "far from him." If the head is right and the heart is wrong, we perish. On the other hand, if the head is confused, the understanding muddled, and the doctrine fuzzy, there is still hope for us if our hearts beat with a passion for God. Better the empty head than the empty heart.

Why then bother with religious thought, or speak at all of the primacy of the mind? Precisely for the sake of the heart. How can we love what we do not understand? How can we worship an unknown God? If the character of God remains an enigma to us, all our singing, praying, and religious zeal becomes a useless passion, a beating of the air. Religion degenerates to superstition and liturgy becomes a form of magical incantation.

There is a content to the Christian faith. That content is directed, by way of order, to the mind. The New Testament calls us to be childlike, but not with respect to understanding. It is the plea of the apostolic heart that we not be ignorant in our heads. God has made us with a harmony of heart and head, of thought and action, God the Holy Spirit superintended a Book that is to be read, whose verbal content is to be so understood and digested that our hearts may burn within us. As the ankle bone is connected to the knee bone, so there is a marvelous circuitry fashioned by God that flashes back and forth from head to heart. The more we know him the more we are able to love him. The more we love him the more we seek to know him. To be central in our hearts he must be foremost in our minds. Religious thought is the prerequisite to religious affection and obedient action.

We must have passion—indeed hearts on fire for the things of God. But that passion must resist with intensity the anti-intellectual spirit of the world. The entrance of that spirit into the house of God is like a Trojan horse, concealing within its belly the troops of the enemy who would beguile us with contentless religion, thoughtless action, and vacuous zeal—fire without light. Its only legacy will be a tomb for a forgotten deity inscribed with the epitaph, "To an Unknown God."

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Igzy

This forum is very open to guest (unregistered) posting. However, the guest designation is intended for posters who post very infrequently. Guest posts must be moderated and approved before they appear publicly. If you want to engage in a real-time discussion, a guest post may not be seen for hours.

It is NOT the responsibility of forum moderators to make sure guests posts are made public in a timely manner. We have real lives and jobs and will not apologize if your guest post does not get approved for hours or even more. If you want your post to appear in real-time, please sign up as a full-fledged poster.

We heartily welcome guest posting and new posters. However, guest posting is not the best vehicle if you intend to submit multiple posts in a short period of time.

Let me also add that guests will be moderated more closely than full-fledged posters. Do not expect your guest posts to be rubber-stamped, especially if they are confrontational.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

To Register Send Request and Desired UserName to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by james73

From the ferry pier noticeboard this morning…

Have a good day!

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[testallthings]

6. How do we go on?

We believe that all the saints among us love Christ and the church. Moreover, we also feel that we need to go on positively, not only with a few saints, but with all. Therefore, we are happy to have this opportunity to share with you our burden in this regard. We believe we can answer this question under four headings:
a. By receiving the Word of God
Our greatest need is for the Lord t speak to us through His Word. Therefore we strongly encourage every saint to earnestly seek the Lord every day in His Word, not only reading it, but receiving the Lord’s speaking through it. His speaking is the most crucial thing. We all need it desperately and should pray that the Lord will definitely speak to us every day through His Word. Matthew 4:4 says that man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Without the Lord’s speaking it is impossible to go on or have a proper church life. Only this will deliver us from many distracting considerations and focus us on the Lord Himself and His purpose. Only this will richly supply us to share the living Word in the meetings to nourish others and build up the Body. The best way to overcome many troubling factors is to be well-nourished by the living, spoken Word of God.
Moreover, our church life and daily life should be governed in all things solely by the Word of God, not by any expediency, tradition, or extraneous influence. (See point #1 of the attached transcript.) May the Lord fully establish the authority and supremacy of His Word among us.
b. By following the Spirit’s leading
In order to do this, we must give the Lord His rightful place as our unique Head, the Head of the church (Col. 1:18) and the Head of every man (I Cor. 11:3). This means that as the church in Anaheim we are directly responsible and accountable to the Lord (Rev. 2 & 3), and need to receive our leading in all things from Him. This also means that as individual members of His Body we are directly responsible and accountable to Him who is now the Spirit within us. Therefore, it is our privilege and responsibility to be led directly by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14) and taught by His anointing concerning all things (I Jn. 2:27). This is a great blessing of the new covenant. In this age there is no intermediary between ourselves and Him. We hope that in all areas of the church life and our daily lives we will increasingly experience this reality.
In order to seek the Lord’s leading in all things we feel deeply that we need much more earnest prayer than we now have. We have had a great shortage of this I the past. May the Lord send us to our knees, especially at this time, corporately, individually, or in small groups, to seek His mercy, His grace, and His leading for our going on.
c. By practicing and keeping the oneness of the Spirit
To do this we must learn to receive all whom God receives, and to receive one another as Christ has received us to the glory of God (Rom. 15:7). We hope that in all our meetings and church life we may receive every brother and sister with the love and grace of Christ, regardless of their concepts or convictions; and when they participate in the meetings, may we stand with them in one spirit, praying for them and opening ourselves to receive their portion. We also hope that the oneness we keep will not be less in scope than the whole Body of Christ, and that we will come out of any party or sectarian oneness that excludes other members. May the Lord grant us His abundant grace that we will not allow any issue concerning persons, practices, or teachings to divide us.
Moreover, to keep the oneness we must learn to practice the proper generality in our attitude toward one another (see point #15 of the attached transcript), allowing each one the freedom to follow his own conscience and convictions in all things, but not allowing any differences to become a dividing factor. This will surely test us, exposing our narrowness and smallness. May the Lord enlarge our hearts and fill us with His love toward all. In Anaheim at present we have the best environment to practice what we have so long taught but very little lived. What a testimony this will be! Let us seek to keep the Lord’s word in Ephesians 4:2-3 regarding longsuffering and forbearance toward all when faced with provocations. And let us learn, as we have heard many times, neither to impose or oppose, but to hold the truth (Christ Himself) in love. May the Lord enlighten and strengthen us all!
d. By preaching the gospel to the unbelievers and shepherding the saints
We sincerely hope that the Lord will fully raise up among us a healthy, normal gospel preaching with His rich blessing. We feel this is vital to our going on and indispensable to the normal church life. Hence, we pray that the Lord will enable the saints to preach the gospel in their daily lives in many ways. If some saints desire to share the gospel of Christ by knocking on doors, we praise the Lord for that and encourage them to do it. But we are mainly concerned that the brothers and sisters would have a daily life of gospel preaching and fruit-bearing with all their friends, neighbors, classmates, and colleagues. Most of all, we hope that we may have a happy church life as a strong base and impetus for the spread of the gospel.
With the gospel preaching we need adequate shepherding of all the new believers with the best use of home gatherings, either in their homes or the homes of the saints. Furthermore, the saints themselves surely need much mutual shepherding. We hope that all our homes would be used in this way, and that they would be filled with edifying fellowship in the Word.
May the Lord grant us all much mercy and grace that we may be preserved for His purpose and go on to satisfy Him as His testimony in this locality. May we all pray for this.

Your brothers in Christ,
John C. Ingalls
Albert P. Knoch



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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello everyone,

I meant to relate one more personal story.

Shortly after the Irving Hall was completed there was a big conference there with WL and churches from all over. During the conference my second son was involved in a big soccer tournament in Dallas. He played on a nationally ranked select team and was a key player. I attended all of the regular meetings but had cut the elders meetings in order to be at his games.

On the last day of the conference, my son's team was playing for the championship at 3:30 in Richardson. No problem, I could go to the morning meeting and make it easily to my sons game.

When I entered the hall, an usher handed me a note. It was from Benson Phillips. After the meeting, WL had invited some of the overseas brothers, Ray Graver, Benson and myself to a special get together. Lunch would be served. Benson mentioned that Brother Lee especially mentioned that he hoped I could be there.

I had lunch with them. But then WL started in on the same old same old about their history in China etc. Things I had heard so many times. I waited it out but at 3:00 I got up whispered to Benson I must go as I had family responsibilities. He asked what. I replied that Deric was playing soccer in Richardson and I was going to watch and bring him home. Brother Lee observed my leaving and asked what was happening. I told him I had prior family responsibilities but it was good to see him and then left.

By the way Deric had a great game and his team won the game and championship.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

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[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left. The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home

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[aron]

Originally Posted by formermember

"You know a tree by its fruit." In some ways Nee has borne bad fruit. For example, it's not just Witness Lee who misused Nee's teachings in regard to complete submission to spiritual authority. I know people who were involved in the "shepherding/discipleship" movement in the 70's, and Nee was a large part of that. I've also met other people who were in spiritually abusive environments, where Nee's writings had been used to justify the authoritarian approach by the church leaders.

I personally got a lot out of Nee when I first read him, and there are many things to appreciate about him. Clearly the Lord used him in a great way in China. But over the years being immersed in both Nee and Lee was damaging. And while Lee was definitely more extreme, certainly many aspects of what defined the Local Church began with Nee.

Here are examples of what I consider negative aspects of Nee's ministry, that Lee then took to another level. Some of this has been commented upon by others already.

1) hyper-spirituality and asceticism
2) extreme separatism from the world (Brethren style)
3) overemphasis on authority and submission
4) pride and exclusivity (the one true church, the consummation of the Lord's move)
5) contempt for other Christian groups, including charities
6) uplifting of the "church life" over normal human life and family life
7) introspection and subjectivity (especially trying to discern the spirit from the soul)
8) a warped view of humanity (rejecting anything "soulish," "natural" or "worldly")
9) using trainings to correct people's spirituality
10) a harsh and rebuking style of shepherding (M.E. Barber as the model)

I think all of this deserves to be reconsidered, in view of how this laid the foundation for Lee's own teachings and practices.

.......................

[JJ]

Nice summary. Thanks for gleaning this, Aron!

Top down pyramid scheme Christianity is really the opposite of what Jesus and His apostles taught and has borne rotten fruit wherever it has been practiced.

Real apostles are less than the least of all saints and serve from the bottom up, as Jesus' foot washing example showed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

Top down pyramid scheme Christianity is really the opposite of what Jesus and His apostles taught and has borne rotten fruit wherever it has been practiced.

Real apostles are less than the least of all saints and serve from the bottom up, as Jesus' foot washing example showed.

Real apostles expect to be rewarded at His coming, not here and now by one's fellows with elevation, exaltation, and control.

Who did Jesus control? "Man, who made me ruler over you?" (Lu 12:14) Yet these so-called apostles come to us with all their "needs" and "musts" and supposedly urgent needs for God's present move (make checks payable to Living Stream Ministry).

I don't see authority there. Just the lack of self-control, foisted over upon the flock. "Do what I say, or I'll be unhappy". What a shame and damage to the testimony.

The post by formermember which I carried forward, here, shows some of the fruit that this kind of thinking, as it makes its way through the assembly. Rigid control, followed by turmoil.What then?

The great command remains. Love God, love your neighbor. The testimony remains: God loved us, and sent His only-begotten Son, that we might live and not perish. Love one another as I have loved you. That's what Jesus told us. Paul said, "In what you were called, remain." Don't look for a new and pure move of God. Just love your neighbour. John the disciple could have started a new and pure move of God on Patmos. The Asian churches were pretty much in ruins, according to the first couple of chapters of his Apocalypse. But John stayed there, and ministered, and loved.

The alternative to top-down pyramid control, followed by "rebellion" or "turmoil" (if you are the power structure), or "reformation" or "recovery" (if you are the dissenter) is simply to follow Paul's advice to remain where you were called, and Jesus' advice to love and serve your neighbour. Then, God will move. Then, the fire will fall.

"Who, then, is the servant, when the Master comes, He finds so doing?" That to me is the acid test. Do it and dare God to move. God will move.

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by OBW

This is where the whole premise looks like an attempt to swing the pendulum rather than find truth.

The very idea that the garden was open to Eve but not Adam is patently ridiculous. Under this premise, there would be no more human race. Under the standard reading of Genesis, at that point there was only Adam and Eve. Separating them would be tantamount to the extermination of the human race.

I'm sorry, but there is a reason that getting too embroiled emotionally in trying to get a result is a dangerous place to be. It leads to absurd conjecturing (theorizing).

I will agree that there is nothing stating either way is true. But the outcome of your way to look at it v the outcome of the other is rather implausible. The difference between plausible and implausible is a valid reason to reject one in favor of the other when there is no direct evidence for either.

You would do well to stick with the problem of translations resulting in the erroneous mistreatment of women. Keep away from fantasizing about a world in which women get things right and men get it all wrong. As it is, you are showing how it is that women are just as prone to reading favor to themselves into the Bible. Looks more like a mea culpa than some important revelation or substantive theory.

................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some of the best forum discussions are "off-topic."

.............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by awareness

Rev. 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and
shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Job 3:21 - Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
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2 Thes. 2:8 - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
his coming:

Job 4:9 - By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Cor. 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is
written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Job 5:13 - He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
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Heb. 12:5 - And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you
as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nore
faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Jas. 1:12 - Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried,
he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that
love him.

and Rev. 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous
therefore, and repent.

all parallel Job 5:17 - Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth:
therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

and Job 23:10 - But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I
shall come forth as gold.
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Jas. 4:14 - Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is
your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then
vanisheth away.

Job 7:6 - My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without
hope.
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Heb. 2:6 - But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou
shouldest set thine heart upon him?
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Heb. 12:26 - Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised,
saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Job 9:6 - Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof
tremble.
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Rom. 9:20 - Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall
the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

alludes to Job 9:32 - For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer
him, and we should come together in judgment.
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Rom. 11:33 - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

parallels Job 35:7 - If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
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Acts 17:28 - For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Job 12:10 - In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of
all mankind.
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1 Cor. 4:5 - Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,
who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make
manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of
God.

Job 12:22 - He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to
light the shadow of death.
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1 Pet. 1:24 - For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of
grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Job 14:2 - He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a
shadow, and continueth not.
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Lk. 19:22 - And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee,
thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that
I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

Job 15:6 - Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips
testify against thee.
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Rom. 1:9 - For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel
of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

parallels Job 16:19 - Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.
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1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet
appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be
like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Job 19:26 - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
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Rev. 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is
poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be
tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in
the presence of the Lamb:

and Rev 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he
treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

parallel Job 21:20 - His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
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Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been
his counsellor?

and 1 Cor. 2:16 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may
instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

quotes Isa. 40:13 - Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his
counsellor hath taught him?

which parallels Job 21:22 - Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mt. 25:42 - For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

alludes to Job 22:7 - Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.
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Jas. 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

and 1 Pet. 5:5 - Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea,
all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God
resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

both quote Prov. 3:34, - Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace
unto the lowly.

which parallels Job 22:29 - When men are cast down, then thou shalt say,
There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.
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Acts 1:7 - And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Job 24:1 - Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days?
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Heb. 4:13 - Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but
all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to
do.

parallels Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no
covering.
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Mt. 16:26 - For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

alludes to Job 27:8 - For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath
gained, when God taketh away his soul?
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Jas. 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all
men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Job 32:8 - But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty
giveth them understanding.
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1 Jo. 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

alludes to Job 33:27-28 - He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have
sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
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Jas. 5:4 - Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your
fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them
which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

alludes to Job 34:28 - So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev. 16:21 - And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone
about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague
of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

alludes to Job 38:22-23 - Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or
canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof
in the earth?
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Mt. 6:26 - Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap,
nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not
much better than they?

alludes to Job 38:41 - Who provideth for the raven his food? when his
young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
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Rom. 11:35 - Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed
unto him again?

Job 41:11 - Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is
under the whole heaven is mine.

..................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

"Is God for me? I fear not, though all against me rise;
When I call on Christ, my Saviour, the host of evil flies.
My friend, the Lord Almighty, and He who love's me, God!
What enemy shall harm me, though coming as a flood?

I know it, I believe it, I say it fearlessly,
That God, the highest, mightiest, for ever loveth me.
At all times, in all places, He standeth at my side;
He rules the battle's fury, the tempest, and the tide.

No angel and no heaven, no throne, nor power, nor might,
No love, no tribulation, no danger, fear, nor fight;
No height, no depth, no creature that has been or can be,
Can drive me from Thy bosom, can sever me from Thee.

My heart in joy upleapeth, grief cannot linger there;
She singeth high in glory, amid the sunshine fair;
The sun that shines upon me is Jesus and His love,
The fountain of my singing is deep in heaven above."

...................

[JJ]

Two posts that still stand out to me:

Aron's use of the phrase "Elvis has left the building" as analogy for TLR.

a brother's use of in a post related to state of TLR (sorry I don't know who to attribute that too.

I couldn't put it any better way to describe my most recent experiences in TLR

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Terry

"5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved." 2nd Corinthians 13:5-7

Something that was brought out last Saturday morning at the men's breakfast at the church I attend is the matter of forgiveness and unforgiveness.

I considered Mark 11:25-26;

25 Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. 26 [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]

Whether a member of this forum or just lurking, this applies to each one of us.

........................................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's nearly impossible to find a servant of the Lord in the Bible whose children brought honor to their father and glory to God. The two seem almost mutually exclusive.

King David was an abject failure when it came to raising children. One of his sons raped one of his daughters, and David did nothing about it, consequently another one of his sons was forced to take justice in his own hands.

Looking at Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I'm hard-pressed to find any good patterns of marriage and child-rearing, and these are the Patriarchs of Israel.

We have discussed the corruptions of old Eli the priest and his boys, but it was the failures of Samuel's own children that caused Israel to cry out for a king.

Looking at the many examples in the Bible, ZNPaaneah has some solid points about not judging WL. In this regard, the forum goes often beyond "what has been written" in judging WL. This does not mean, however, that ministers cannot be held accountable by the church, rather they must be.

...............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I'm still not 100% sure what to make of the so-called "New Perspectives on Paul" debate which apparently has been around for nearly 50 years according to Conrad.

The main point of contention between the two camps seems to be a conclusion drawn by some that because first-century Palestinian Judaism (sometimes also referred to as "Second Temple Judaism")was actually loosely based upon fundamental concepts of God's grace, Paul wasn't advocating such a radical departure in his epistles. The other side argues, essentially, that there is no such thing as a monolithic first-century Palestinian Judaism and even to the extent that you might argue that there is, Paul's writings represent a strong reaction to that very thing rather than a continuation of it.

From what I could tell, Conrad and Wright are both in the business of talking past each other.

Those two positions don't really seem inconsistent to me, other than in perhaps bragging rights of who is more correct than the other.

In any event, without going into what I see as the problems on both sides, I just have to say that so far the topic only vaguely interests me anyway. My curiosity about Pauline Jewish practices is not with a view to drawing connections or denying that such connections exist (which more or less seems like the focus of the NPP debate) but rather I am simply trying to identify if Paul's word, for instance, about head-covering is a cultural thing that can be ignored by modern students of Paul or if this is an issue for which the alleged Biblical infallibility principle of Paul's epistles should be applied.

If Paul was a practicing Jew and yet he protected his Gentile converts from being subjected to mandatory Jewish practices, what should we say when he himself instructs to participate in Jewish practices of one kind or another? (If that's what he does, of course!)

I guess the only point I might have in common with the NPP people is the realization that maybe Paul wasn't as thoroughly non-Jewish as Witness Lee and so many others have led me to be believe.

Maybe Paul was really the first "Jew for Jesus" who strongly wanted to give Christ a full way outside the Jewish community?

Anyways, this is sort of what I'm conisdering at the moment.

Re-reading Matthew recently, I was deeply struck with how very Jewish it is in its approach. For your consideration - first verse:



It don't get much more Jewish than that.

...........................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by zeek

You have mischaracterized Witness Lee's ministry. He spent message after message focusing on the experience of God rather than knowledge about God. Whatever the problems are with his ministry neglecting the expereince of God isn't one of them.

.................................................. ...............

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nothing discredits the forum more than unbalanced judgment upon e ministers. Should we not place the same standards upon all? How can we discuss WL splinters and pass over JM beams? That's not to say that this forum should be centered on JM failures, but how can we promote her ministry without applying the same standards?

You said, "Meyer didn't set out to be wealthy. She is just very popular. That is no sin." WL didn't set out to be wealthy either, but that is not the point. What is the point, and a crucial point, is how her ministry handles the success. In this regard, like WL, she does not bring glory to the Lord. All the same mechanisms that brought about failure to the ministry of WL, are set in place with JM too, and more so.

Is this not the complaint of many a LC brother or sister? Unless we evaluate all ministers by the same standards, don't we just appear to be grinding our axes on their beloved movement?

.....................................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I grew up with "saints" all around me, most of them made of plastic or stone.

.................................................. ..........

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.

My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here.
I find this rather ironic and amusing, because supposedly we or I are "Lee followers". The meetings have always uplifted Christ, there is really no other name mentioned as frequently.

So I am thinking some of your perspectives are somewhat wrong and perhaps outdated. Just as my perspectives are ignorant of past history.

This was one of the reasons I decided to come to the forum. Not to persuade anyone to do anything, but to highlight that things aren't possibly as bad as made out, or as widespread.

I could recount numerous denominational experiences that were just as bad, or worse. So in my experience the LR is an improvement.

The corruptions of greed, money, power, control, can affect any human being.

I would encourage people to remember to keep the focus on Christ. Holding onto the Head, but also not forgetting the Body.

.................................................. .......................................

[testallthings]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
my demons came back. I got discouraged, and went to meet with the lead elder. "I have problems", I told him.

"No, you don't", he replied.

"Okay".

Originally Posted by aron

This conversation, and others, took place about 27 years ago. Eventually I left the LC, and years later, my life turned when I learned one simple thing. What I do to others, God will do to me. So I began to focus on helping others, and lo and behold God began helping me.

My problems didn't vanish overnight. Most of them took years of effort. But I can testify that when I began to help others, God began to help me. When I began to have compassion on others in their situations, God began to have compassion on mine. Etc.

I discovered "the way out" - not to masticate the processed God, but rather to help others find the way out. Do unto others as you'd have God do unto you. Of course it's good to eat divine manna as well. But remember what Jesus said was food: to do the will of the Father (Jo 4:34). And chances are, the Father has placed someone even more wretched than you, nearby. That's your opportunity - take it!

........................................

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I am troubled today, because my eldest daughter (age 11) lost a friend.

Friday night is "Home Meeting" night, and my children have enjoyed going because there are many other children there. I have not chosen to attend in some time, but my wife has still gone some lately. Tonight my daughter found out they were no longer invited. Tonight she discovered that her friends aren't allowed to associate with her anymore because we no longer meet with the LSM church. Her friends were told we go to a "Catholic church in Three Hills now", which we do not (not that it matters, really). My daughter told her friend that we don't, and "what does it matter where we go? We're Christians, what does it matter if we don't want Witness Lee as our divine deputy - we can still be friends!" Her friend (also age 11) agreed, but her parents don't feel the same way.

Praise the Lord, it is completely over at last. We are delivered whole from a religious system that lost its way if ever it had found it. How sad though, that children would be cast aside and friendships destroyed over such things as this.

Matthew 18:5-6 "And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. "

Lord, have mercy on them. Open their eyes to the full knowledge of the truth. Lord, forgive them - for they know not what they do.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

...........

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Thank you Ohio.... Thank you.

I was writing a follow up to my first post here last night, and somehow it got dumped off the system before I was able to post it. Praise the Lord, there was some bitterness in it that needn't be spoken.

You are right, of course - the Lord did place me here to shepherd me and my family; and I love the saints in Christ dearly. They have become our family in every sense of the word. After being Saved, my wife completely lost her family; they rejected her utterly. Funny, they didn't mind her when she lived in sin, but now as a new creation in Christ the Enemy has really put a hate in their hearts for her. If it weren't for the Saints in our Local Church, we would likely never have made it.

And yet I struggle, as so many of you did.

Maybe my issue is, I have always seen 'problems' in the Church, and my response has ALWAYS been to leave, because "my relationship with the Lord was greater". When I've had a chance to stand for the Lord, I've sat down, and said nothing. This isn't humility, as I sometimes like to think, it's cowardice. It has no place. We are all to speak as we feel lead, and I need to give Him the headship to speak as He would.

Saints still in the Local Church, Stop regarding man, whose life breath is in his nostrils. For of what value is he considered to be? Isaiah 2:22

Saints, Watchman Nee - whose work we regard and whose work we publish, said "Anything that comes from the hand of man is dead, it is finished and it cannot give life. Only the Word of God can give life."

As much as we can enjoy a life study, a message, it is no different from a sermon, is it? It is something that may be good, but it is not the Word of God.

Will you be like the Lutherans, who followed Luther - or the Christians, who followed Christ?

Saints, if you a consider a brother to be wise, and admire him, and want to grow to be like him, then you need to consider how you can honestly achieve that. The wisest men among us did not come to such wisdom by self-contemplation, studying their own thoughts and works. No, by their own testimony they grew up in Christ through the Word. When we speak of eating and drinking Christ, we do not mean that we fall upon His person as ghouls to consume Him - we mean that we drink the pure, guileless milk of the Word! We eat the meat of the Word! Christ is the Living Word! This is no mystery!

If a brother grows up in Christ, and gains some maturity by feasting at the Lord's Table, should we who wish to also gain not want to feast at that same Table with Him? We are called to, Christ wants to YOU to know Him so well as that too! Do not settle instead to lie beneath the chair of the brother who is feeding, and to eat only what he has already processed and digested. Saints, please - Christ is calling: Will you be an Overcomer? There is no such thing as an exclusive club of Overcomers... only a remnant will make it.

The Church in Philadelphia was warned, because they might lose the crown they had already gained. That is not an idle warning. The Church in Laodicea resembles Philadelphia in many ways...

If you haven't read Watchman Nee's "The Orthodoxy of the Church", published by LSM, then I encourage you to. See how Nee identified the characteristics of the final Church to appear before the Lord's return... the Church (which He still calls His Church) at the end of the age. Ask yourself, who is Nee describing here?

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...2%2BI%20%20%0A


There are overcomers from each of the seven Churches, Saints; and there are also a lot of tares sown in with the wheat. We cannot judge who is who, because the Lord told us that we might tear out the wheat with the tares if we do not let them first mature; and only then will the tares be gathered and burned.

Only Jesus Christ is Lord!

In Christ,

Neither First nor Last

...................................

[testallthings]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner
Much as I love debate I have sadly come to realize it doesn't work in many settings. Feelings get hurt, tempers flare, words get said that cause lasting damage.

I have tried, somewhat unsuccessfully, to swear off debating in friendly settings simply because I want to keep my friends. But in places like Speakers Corner -- or here -- let the verbal epees flick. Though much of the jousting is pointless, self-justifying, and weak on logic, the back and forth does make a difference if for none other than you yourself. You learn the limits of your skill, logic, and position.

Originally Posted by aron

I myself love to rant, exposit, and pontificate. I am well read (relatively speaking) and opinionated. My saving grace is that I don't take myself too seriously. Remember that comedienne on tv 30-odd years ago, named Gilda Radner? She did a character that would be doing an "editorial" on the fake news show they were doing. The news anchor would roll his eyes and eventually lean over and correct her glaring errors, and she'd realize that maybe she was waaaay off, and she'd just shrug and go, "Never mind."

Well, that's me. I'm pretty well entrenched in my position, but I can be got to, with time, persistence, skill, and a little luck. PeterD's word on "elders who serve" really was an eye-0pener for me. Also YP's "ekklesia". Occasionally I do learn a thing or two. Possibly I do likewise to others. Often I merely opine. My friends all know that I have a speech ready at pretty much every occasion, and eventually I'll get tangled up in my own words or trail off, and go, "Never mind". We all chuckle and life goes on.

But it's fun when somebody says something and I go, "Hey, good point." And also occasionally when I get to do the same.

What's been a real God-send (pun intended) here for me is the "Preview Post" function. I get to pare my comments down, sometimes drastically.

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I want to know who made Hank the barometer of cults or the barometer of acceptable "churches"?

There may be books and opinions that define what a cult is and what religious institutions are considered cults.

Ultimately each born again believer needs to develop an intimate relationship with their Creator. The true mature believers should be responsible in nurturing, teaching and praying with new or young, immature believers. We (non LC as well as LRC) are leaving the pulpit preachers or Lee's messages to "teach" them. Most want their membership and $$$.

If we would ALL do our part in praying, asking God the Holy Spirit to reveal and give us understanding of the Living and Glorious Word of God -Jesus-, He would be more than Happy to guide us and lead us in Truth.

Sadly the church as a whole is so divided among the protestants, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Catholics because people do not take the time to study the Scriptures for themselves.

One thing I credit the LC for, is pointing to me there were no denominations or non denominations in the Bible. I do not remember if they ever pointed the divisions in the church and mistakes made, evidenced in the book of Acts but God's plan was never to have the church divided.

The majority of the church is lazy or zealous to become something in the eyes of the world or the church. I confess to being lazy and I do not know why. I love the Word of God. I love talking about Him and His things. I love leading people to Christ, encouraging them, yet shame on me!!! I have not yet read the entire Old Testament!!! It is part of the Bible. So now the forum knows something about me you all did not know.

I have read Revelation several times and discovered in chapter 1 vs 3 that those who read the prophesy (of Revelation) are blessed. :-)

I do study topics of the Bible and to the Credit of the Holy Spirit have received much revelation and understanding!

If we read the Word prayerfully, ask the Lord to give us understanding and revelation, study the scriptures, fellowship with each other, God is not going to allow us to be deceived. He will not permit us to start our own "church"...or a new church.

And if Lee truly knew and understood the Word as he claimed, the local church would not have gone the way of another denomination, sect or cult.

God have mercy on us all!!!... Especially ME!!!

Blessings to all,

Carol G

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[testallthings]

Originally Posted by aron

RIP brother Tom. I remember Ohio's story about him: "I'm not late, I'm married"; even Titus Chu had to laugh.

Oh that we could all get to the other side of this damn thing, where we could laugh together and not fight over names and doctrines. May God have mercy, "until we all arrive together..."

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