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Old 10-21-2014, 03:18 PM   #1
aron
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Default The Holy Spirit

What follows is a tentative view of the Holy Spirit. I must strongly stress that this Alternative View is very tentative. I trust that it will be modified greatly over time. It may be scrapped completely, even tomorrow. Who knows. But this is the vision that has slowly been emerging for me.

The Holy Spirit: an Alternative View

So I was reading the part where Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come to me, because their angels in heaven are always beholding the face of my Father." I realized that every person has an angel, or angels, assigned to them. When you are very small, pre-verbal, your angel has unfettered access to the Father. And of course they love to be with their Father, and gaze at His glorious face. I remembered that a small child will gaze intently at every thing you show them. You could show them the Hope diamond or a leaf that just fell from a tree, and they will regard each one as an object created by their Father in heaven.

But eventually we create words to represent reality. We call one object "tree", another "rock", etc. and we assign values. Eventually we lie, cheat, and kill over trees, rocks, words, and values. We are distorted, and our words reflect the illusions we create, lost in our own creations. Our angels are cast out from the Father's presence. We are lost.

Jesus is the one who was able to speak, to communicate with words, and simultaneously regard His Father in heaven. This is why we call him the incarnated Word. His word is true, and every other man is a liar (at least partly). And today I think that perhaps what we call the Holy Spirit is really the Great Angel. It is Jesus' Angel. It is His doppelganger, if you will. His spiritual counterpart. His Angel never left the Father's throne. The whole time Jesus was on Earth, His Angel was before the Father's throne. But when Jesus was in heaven, pre-incarnation, His Angel was leading the Israelites in a pillar of Cloud and a pillar of Fire.

That is why Jesus told the disciples, "It is necessary for Me to go. Then the Spirit will come." Because Jesus and the Angel can never be in the same place. One always has to be in front of the Father. That is why in Revelation 1, when John sent greetings to the seven churches in Asia, he didn't mention the Spirit. Because the seven spirits before the throne are actually the seven first-created angels, the so-called Protoctoi (see e.g. Rev 8:2, also see Gabriel's words to Mary: "I stand before God's throne"). But the Great Angel of Revelation 10:5,6 is the Holy Spirit. This is the Angel of the LORD, the Angel of the Covenant, the "Angel of Great Counsel" (LXX). This is the "Captain of the Lord's Host" (Josh 5:4), and Jesus is the Captain of our salvation (Hebrews 2:10).

I know this screws up ideas of the Trinity, because to me there is only One God, and that is the Father, and one Lord, and that is Jesus, and one Spirit, and that is the Holy Spirit, the Great Angel. Lee had it backward: he said that God is one essentially but three economically. But what I see is God is one essentially: the Father. But Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one economically (functionally) with the Father. Jesus said, "You will be one, even as I and the Father are one". So we christians are to be one in purpose, in function, in intention, just as Jesus came to Earth but was still one with His Father in Heaven. Like I said, His Angel never left the throne of the Father. So if Jesus asked us to be one as He and the Father are one, that means I am still me and you are still you but we have common intent, common purpose, feeling. Your mind is my mind, we are like souled, etc. We are one even though we are many.

So Gabriel and Raphael and Michael and Uriel are of the seven Protoctoi before the throne, and the Holy Spirit is unique. The Holy Spirit is one. But on the day of Pentecost you saw many flames dancing over the disciples. Those were the holy spirits (angels) sent to guide each one. Even though you have one Spirit you can have many manifestations. Then you have angels over countries, like in the narrative in Daniel, you have angels over each city like in Revelations 2 and 3, etc. All of them are under the Great Angel who is under Christ who is under the Father.
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Old 10-21-2014, 03:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Holy Spirit

Also, look at people like Witness Lee and Jonathan Cahn and Jim Bakker, currently being discussed on another thread. These people make a living using words. They manipulate symbols for profit. They send out books and pamphlets and video recordings, but instead of pointing people to Jesus the Incarnated Word they create other things like "God's present move on the Earth today" and "Heritage Theme Park" and "The Harbinger" and they sell these creations. At best people are confused and distracted and at worst they are stumbled and misled, and they give up in their search for the Father God in Heaven. So the Spirit behind them is not the Holy Spirit. Once these three men were genuine but something else got in and they pursued other goals. They are no longer one with the Father but have other kingdoms in mind. So they are mixed, and confused, and produce ministries of mixture and confusion.

Surely Lucre has now come into the picture. They have rushed off for the reward of Balaam. Once Peter was offered Lucre for the Holy Spirit but he told the guy to go to hell (Acts 8). But some people accept the temptation of cash, and they are compromised. Look at Elisha's servant Gehazi in 2 Kings 5. Same thing. So their angel, who returned to the Father via repentance and faith in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, is once again expelled. Such a sad story. "The dog has returned to the vomit, the swine to the mud". Their light has become darkness, and how great is the darkness!
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Old 10-21-2014, 04:24 PM   #3
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Default Further documentation

There are a number of instances in the OT where the angel and God (YHWH) are separate yet overlapped. There is the angel that bears God's name in Exodus 23:21

There is YHWH speaking to Moses in Exodus 3; then Stephen in Acts 7:30 says that an angel spoke to Moses.

Jacob wrestled with an angel, and wrestled with God also.

Manoah and his wife in Judges 13 saw an angel, who they called God.

In Genesis 16/21, the angel sees Hagar and she calls him "The God who sees me".

These angels are THE angel of God. Singular. The one who bears God's name. This is not Gabriel or Michael. This is the Angel of the Lord.

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Agency: this Angel is the Holy Spirit, which is God "economically" because this Angel is one with God. So when you see this Angel you are seeing God. When this Angel talks you are talking to God. So this Angel is God, economically, but not essentially.

The Roman Centurion in Luke 7 said that he was "a man under authority", as was Jesus under God. And the Holy Spirit is under Jesus. See John 15 and 16 for discussion of this -- in these 2 chapters, Jesus presents us the Father, and the Holy Spirit presents us Jesus. In the Gospels, when we see Jesus we see the Father, and in John 15/16, when we see the promised Holy Spirit we see Jesus. Just like when the Roman Centurion spoke, because he was one with Caesar, you heard Caesar through the Centurion. This is agency. This is extension of power, intent, kingdom, domain, through the agency of an intermediary. The key with Jesus and the Holy Spirit is that they are "next in line" from God, so when you get them you get God. Pure, unadulterated God. This is the idea of agency at its finest. Like if the Secretary of State goes to England, he can say, President Smith wants this. Because the Secretary is one with the President. When the Secretary speaks, you hear the President, first-hand.

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Further documentation: an angel told Philip to go down the south Road out of Jerusalem in Acts 8:26, then in verse 29 "the spirit" told Philip to run up to the chariot.

In Revelations 2 and 3 you have Jesus speaking to the angel of the church, then at the end of each message you have "hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches". So the angel receiving in the beginning is the spirit speaking at the end.

See the pre-Trinity formula: Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. You have the glory of the Son, the glory of the Father, and the holy angels. No Holy Spirit mentioned here.


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Lastly, these ideas are not mine. They were in the discussions of the church fathers pre-Nicene. But the rise of the "orthodoxy" movement put an end to this. Also probably a lot of speculative literature got actively repressed. I am guessing the Book of Enoch among others.

Clement wrote a bit about this, as did Origen. The idea that the Spirit/Angel/Christ overlaps. Not always clear which is which. The only thing that is truly original is my idea that the Holy Spirit is the "doppelganger" of Jesus. It his his "other half". Like "spooky action from a distance".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

Sorry, but I like physics. But there is a lot of scholarly documentation on the Church Fathers, Pre-Nicene, Pre-Trinitarian Creed, discussing the Spirit/Angel overlap. But once we got the Trinity Formula, most all of this got dropped. I simply revive it here because it makes more sense with the text than the Trinity formula. With the trinity formula, you have to ignore the text. I don't like that. Plus I like physics, and this formula allows me to include angels, principalities, powers etc in my view. Instead of the simple trinity formula, which essentially sheds all those essential details.
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:42 PM   #4
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Are you diving into angelology bro aron?
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Old 10-22-2014, 06:15 AM   #5
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Are you diving into angelology bro aron?
No more than the Bible does, and - please note well - no less. No less. That is my goal. The Trinitarian Formula seems to lead us away from parts of the scriptural text, because the Formula doesn't fit it. So take your pick.

It seems to me that our knowledge of the actual texts are very, very minimal. Yet we are content. Why? Are our formulas that good, to bypass the text? I understand orthodoxy, and think in many ways it has been used to preserve the tradition. But it too easily becomes an excuse to ignore the words themselves. We have our catechisms, and that seems to largely suffice. I am trying to challenge the Catechism that I grew up on. It may be a laughable attempt that I look back on some time from now.

But I am just trying to find out who Jesus' servants are, that the Roman Centurions alluded to in Luke 7. "I also have servants under me..." We can ignore this if that makes us more comfortable. Just pay attention to the parts of the text that fit your formula.

And I wonder why Jesus had to leave the disciples before the Holy Spirit could come. Stuff like that. Why can't you get both Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Maybe because one of them always has to be before the throne. So you can't get both of them in the Upper Room. You either get one or the other. One has to be before the Father's face at all times. I just find it interesting, is all.
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Old 10-22-2014, 07:13 AM   #6
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Also, I'm not interested in new formulations like the Mormons. I say this because I noticed that they have some teachings like that Jesus and Satan were brothers, pre-incarnation, etc. Mormon teachings have a lot of "angel/Spirit" formulations. But I am only interested in stuff that emerged in the first two centuries. Book of Mormon is like 1824 or something. So I am completely disinterested. That goes for pseudo-Dyonisius' "Angelic Hierarchies" which seems to have showed up around the 4th or 5th century CE. Too far removed from the scripture writings. But Origen and Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria can be useful, because they had access to oral traditions as well as texts and textual variants which can be informative. So I am trying to see what they were talking about, back then. The oldest commentaries occasionally shed brilliant light.

There is a fair amount of interesting scholarly work being done, some of which is insightful, some not very much so. And I don't take Origen or Clement of Alexandria or Irenaeus as "gospel", either. Clement, for example, says that "their angels always behold the Father in heaven" is equivalent to the seven angels who stand before the throne. I totally disagree: only 7 angels are designated as before the throne, but many, many angels can see God. So I don't receive any writing uncritically. I just mine them for ideas. But I'm simply not interested in medieval Merkabah mysticism or New Age angelology or what not. I am trying to access the original writings, as much as possible, and attempt to understand what was meant. What did the Roman Centurion mean, and why did Jesus marvel so, and why did Luke put in these details of "I tell this one come, and he comes, and this one go, and he goes, and this one, do this, and he does it. You just speak the word..." It seems to me that Lee ignored this because it wasn't convenient to his formulations.
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Old 10-22-2014, 10:27 AM   #7
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When covering the Psalms, Lee would only use what text was convenient to his formula, whatever he was pushing at the time. So he was not unfolding the text of the Psalms, but skimming it for what he could use for his ministry. In Psalm 34, for example, Lee panned it because it was natural, fallen, etc. David was just writing from his concepts and was totally off the mark. Suddenly, verse 20 appears: "He protects His bones; not one would be broken" came up. A revelation!! says Lee. A revelation of Christ!! Then on the next verse Lee says it is natural, fallen, etc. Really strange, almost schizophrenic ministry. Where did the NT treat the OT such? I found a similar pattern when I began to look at angels in the NT. Lee wasn't interested, so he would dance around the text, skimming, and anywhere it suggested angels, or some conflation of angels and the Holy Spirit he would just skip it, or use some nebulous phrase. Verses like John 1:51, and Jacob's dream in Genesis 28 only had two words: "much traffic". Much traffic of what? It was like he was bending backwards to avoid actually looking at what had been written.

My aim here is to find the textual relationship, if any, between the holy angels of God and the Holy Spirit. Too easily we may ignore the angels and instead only regard this mysterious entity, our trinitarian "third of the Godhead" , i.e. the Holy Spirit, and where the text has them conflated or superimposed, or not clearly delineated, we simply ignore it. Because it isn't convenient to our formulas. Just like most of the Psalms wasn't convenient to Lee's "God's New Testament Economy" formula. The angels are not convenient. Like I said, we trot them out every Christmas eve, to speak to Mary, and declare God's glory before the amazed shepherds.

Now, we all mine the text to support our readings, interpretations, and theories. But let's be up front about it, and not pretend that we are opening the Bible in some complete way. We are ignorant, and the wisest of us, it would seem, would keep their ignorance out front and not presume some special insight that renders the whole text of the Bible within our neat formula.
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Old 10-22-2014, 10:58 AM   #8
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Default The doppelganger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelg%C3%A4nger

"I set you, that you might go forth". There is a setting, and a going forth. There is a pillar in the temple of my God, and no more going out, and there is simultaneously a flowing forth into all eternity; a kingdom whose expansion knows no end. (Isa 9:7)

So I came at this from Jesus' "Their angels always see My Father's face, in the courts of heaven." There is a spiritual analog between the infants crowding around Jesus and the scene in heaven. Likewise there is a spiritual analog to Jesus as He moves and acts. His doppelganger, his Holy Spirit, is always before the throne of God.

Similarly "Peter's angel" in Acts 12:15 might be similar. The fact that it is not explained or remarked on by the writer Luke might indicate that there was a shared understanding, or the expectation of, which has been lost over the years. Now everything is simply called "of the Holy Spirit". And your angel is forgotten. My leap of logic here, or imaginative play, was to ask, What if Jesus also had an angel? And what if that angel was "The Great Angel, the Angel of YHWH"? What would happen if we approached the text with that question in mind? Then when Jesus says, "It is expedient for me to go, that the Comforter might come, even the Holy Spirit, whom I send" then that might make sense. Or "The Spirit was not yet [given]" from John 7:39. Why? Because the incarnated, human man Jesus was there on earth, in Galilee of the Gentiles. The Holy Spirit, therefore, was before the Father's throne. It could only come down to Earth when the resurrected and ascendant Jesus arrived before the Father in Heaven, triumphant from Hades and Earth.
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Old 10-22-2014, 11:19 AM   #9
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For a better understanding on the Holy Spirit i recomend Author/ pastor
Che Ahn's book Say Goodbye to Powerless Christianity
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:03 PM   #10
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Another thing about the doppelganger analogy for the Spirit(s). "Whenever two or more of you come together in My name, I am there." and "Whenever two or more of you on Earth are in agreement, it will be done." Those kind of statements allude to an interesting thing. Your individual spirit may not be able to surmount the "giants" around you. But when your spirit is "one" with another spirit a miracle happens - your spirit is exponentially increased! It is not "One plus one equals two" but "One divine and holy spirit in Christ plus one divine and holy spirit in Christ equals eighteen, or twenty-six!" The troubles that face you, when you are in agreement, are vanished like smoke. So to be in harmony with one another, and to simply receive one another, as God has receive you in Christ Jesus, allows for a phenomenal multiplication of the kingdom's power on Earth. Phenomenal. Stop judging one another and start receiving one another. Then you will see the Holy Spirit move. The angel guarding you suddenly goes from being a mouse to a warrior such as will tremble the Earth. It is the most marvelous experience of transformation I have ever seen.

"Behold, He comes with myriads of His holy ones!!" You wanna see the myriads? Just be one. Be accepting of the person God put next to you. The gate of heaven will open and the myriads of holy ones will come. And the gates of Hades will never withstand your move, because at that point you are being carried "in spirit" in His move. The little one-talented spirit becomes that of a mighty man, able to hit a fly left-handed at 46 paces. You will see the power of the Holy Spirit. Just be accepting, be one. Don't judge. Receive. God will come.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:19 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by aron View Post
The Trinitarian Formula seems to lead us away from parts of the scriptural text, because the Formula doesn't fit it.

I understand orthodoxy, and think in many ways it has been used to preserve the tradition. But it too easily becomes an excuse to ignore the words themselves. We have our catechisms, and that seems to largely suffice. I am trying to challenge the Catechism that I grew up on. It may be a laughable attempt that I look back on some time from now.
My attempts to understand the Holy Spirit vis a vis the holy angels of God may be a challenge to the idea of both orthodox formulations in general and the Trinitarian Formula in specific, but I would like to reaffirm both orthodoxy and the Trinity (not that anyone was waiting with bated breath). I unapologetically re-affirm something that I don't really understand, because I respect tradition. For example I use the word "Sunday" instead of Lord's Day, and celebrate my birthday and Christmas, because that is my daddy and grandaddy did before me. Likewise, 1700 years ago the Christian powers that be cooked up orthodox positions, expunged pseudepigrapha like the Book of Enoch, and came up with semi-coherent formulas like the "Trinity".

I don't like that orthodoxy made us look away from the texts, I don't like that it led to fights over peripheral stuff and led to the Great Schism. I don't like that Martin Luther left the RCC. I don't like that Nee left Protestantism. I don't like that I left the Community Church and went to "God's best" the Local Churches of Witness Lee. But history is what it is, so I accept orthodoxy and all that followed. But what are we to do, brothers?

It's up to me to reconcile with these ideas; therefore I use the idea of "agency", and especially "intent". The Angel of the LORD, bearing the Name of the Lord (Exodus 23:20) is operationally God, because that Angel bears God's intention, or will, perfectly. So the Angel told Moses, "Take off your shoes, because you are standing on holy ground." The Angel collapses the space-time continuum, and when you see the Angel you see God in heaven, on the throne. You hear the voice of God speaking through the Angel. Hagar told the Angel "You are the God who sees me."

One of the key words for me is "clear": the Angel is clear, and God sees you through the agent, the emmissary, Angel. For example, Gabriel said "I stand before God", collapsing the space-time continuum in front of Mary and Zechariah, who were actually standing before God, and speaking to God in Luke chapter 1. The emissary, the agent, is a clear vector of the Divine will; no corrupting opacity of intent makes its way into the Divine. The Angel of the Lord is so pure that He doesn't even have a name like Gabriel or Raphael. This Angel is The Great Angel of Counsel.

So it comes down to obedience. Obey God by repenting and believing into the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the spotless, sinless Lamb of God. The rebellious "unclean" spirits disobeyed God's will. We need to be clean.. "You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken". (John 15:3). Obey Jesus by receiving His commands (John 13:34, 15:17; Rev. 3:8, 10). It is all about obedience. However you understand angels, or the Holy Spirit, is secondary to obedience.

Back to Luke 7. The Roman Centurion obeyed Caesar. He was "a man under authority". When you saw the Centurion you saw the agent or emissary of Caesar. So when the Centurion said, "Go", or "Come", or "Do this" it was Caesar speaking through him. This is a weak representation of spiritual reality. God works through agents. We were disobedient but now have repented and turned. Will we obey? Partial obedience is partial rebellion. The ones who are perfectly obedient are there for our learning. Today it bothers me that Lee taught us to ignore these mediatorial agents, simply because they didn't fit his "Processed Triune God" formula. You got a formula, and a teaching, and were trained to look away from the actual text in front of you. Only Lee's "interpreted word" was allowed to speak to us. I am very grateful today to be free, to muddle through a confusing text. God is there, God is speaking, and will we hear? Will we obey?

We have a choice to be "holy" or "evil", to be "clean" or "unclean". The heavenly realm shows us a picture of our daily choice. There is no gray area. It is either obedience or falling away. That is why I like to look at what the angels are doing. It shows the clear paths: that of God or that of self. Intent is the hardest thing to purge oneself of.
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Old 10-23-2014, 12:06 PM   #12
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Why can't you get both Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Maybe because one of them always has to be before the throne. So you can't get both of them in the Upper Room. You either get one or the other. One has to be before the Father's face at all times.
Where do you come by this notion, that one has to be before the Father's face at all times?
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:04 PM   #13
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Where do you come by this notion, that one has to be before the Father's face at all times?
There is a hierarchy in heaven. First obviously is the Father on the throne. Second is either Jesus or His Doppelganger the Holy Spirit. So in the OT the Angel of the LORD (the HS) was on the earth and Jesus was with the Father. Jesus was #2 in the scheme of things. He was the LOGOS of the Father, who directed the HS, who in turn directed the Heavenly Host (i.e. "Nay, but as Captain of the LORD's host I am come").

So The #1 (Father) operated through the #2 (Christ). Then, when #2 came to Earth, the HS was the vehicle that the man Jesus the Galilean knew everything about and of the Father. Jesus said, "I always see my Father in Heaven. When He speaks I speak. Whatever I see Him doing I do also". Jesus did this through the medium of the HS. So the "angels ascending and descending" was at the directive of the Big Angel, the Great Angel, etc.

Got me? There is #1, then #2, beside #1, then #3 is on earth connected via the life-line of #2. So when the HS was on the Earth in the OT, Jesus was with the Father, and in the NT Jesus was on the Earth and the HS was always beholding the Father's face, and then in John 14/15/16 Jesus explained that it was expedient for Him to go away so that the HS could come down.

So one came down as the other went up. I imagine them giving each other a high-five as they passed.

As you can tell this is highly imaginative and highly speculative. It just jives with the scriptures better, for me, than some bland "Trinity" doctrine with "Three Persons of the Godhead", which tells me nothing. There is no compelling narrative there. Remember Lee's "tea bag dipped in water"? The Humanity and Divinity mingling story? Not very interesting... I suppose some people like it but it ignores vast swaths of the Bible. So I kept looking.

I guess the main organizing principle that I use is the "throne scene", which was arguably a conceptual organizer. You know, "Lord, grant that my two sons sit by your right and left hands, in the kingdom". Who sits next to whom is important. The various throne scenes in Ezekiel, Isaiah etc in the OT were mirrored in Revelation 1 (to those who say Rev 1 is superfluous, that "we only care for the New Jerusalem" etc -- guess what? You don't get to Revelation 21 except by going through Revelation 1.) In that throne scene you had the Father on the throne, the seven spirits burning before the throne (mirroring the Menorah of the OT by shining light directly at the throne), and Jesus walking among the seven lampstands, i.e. the flock of God. Jesus is the High Priest. But there is one center: the Throne of God.

So this center emanates: first emanation is the LOGOS. Everything else comes to being through the LOGOS; the LOGOS is clearly #2 on the scene and this is clearly Jesus Christ, the Name above every Name. Now, where is the Holy Spirit here? That is where my imagination comes in. In the throne scene in Revelation 1, the HS is on Earth, in the believers. Jesus thus, from the side of the Throne, directs the HS on Earth, by being the High Priest in heaven. And when Jesus was incarnated it was reversed. That was where I came up with the Doppelganger idea; the "spooky action from a distance". "He sends His command to the Earth; His word runs swiftly". The moment Jesus spoke, the Centurion's servant was healed.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:18 PM   #14
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For a better understanding on the Holy Spirit i recomend Author/ pastor
Che Ahn's book Say Goodbye to Powerless Christianity
A cursory review tells me to get my Holy Spirit from the Word. Che Ahn's bio blurb on his book promotion says that in a decade he went from a nobody to running 5,000 churches. So self-aggrandizement and promotion surely are here. The old confidence game, at work.

Second, this self-styled "apostle" has "anointed" people like Todd Bentley at Lakeland Revival and James Stalnaker at Gateway church in Hollywood CA as his apostolic peers. Oops. And the whole Toronto Airport/Lakeland thing is not really my cup of tea. I don't criticize, or condemn, but the whole shake-and-bark-like-a-dog thing, compared to the pleasure I take in searching the Word, just don't pull hard at me. So I'll probably pass.
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Old 10-23-2014, 07:41 PM   #15
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Interesting theory aron. I've always pondered why Jesus said he had to go up in order for the Holy Spirit to come down. The principle that either Jesus or the HS had to be at the throne of God would explain that.

I assume that in your view the Holy Spirit is still an uncreated being as most people think of angels as having been created.

Hebrews 9:14 refers to the Holy Spirit as eternal and there is other scripture that suggests the Holy Spirit is intimately involved in creation (Ps 104:30, Job 26:14, Job 33:4) and also after the earth was created, the Spirit of God was hovering over it (Gen 1:2).

I ascribe to John Bevere's view of the Holy Spirit as the person who "does all the stuff". The Logos comes forth from the Father and in turn directs the Spirit what to do. So Jesus is like the foreman of a factory who gets the blueprints from the Father who is the architect and speaks forth the orders and the Holy Spirit are the workers who carries out all the work.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3_u...%20god&f=false

Regarding the person of the Holy Spirit, in your view the Holy Spirit being the "Great Angel" would have feelings and a personality. This also seems to be confirmed by scripture that ascribes attributes of a person to the Spirit, for example he can be grieved (Eph 4:30), as opposed to some who view the HS as simply a force or influence that emanates from God.

Hebrews 1:14 also refers to angels and spirits interchangeably which would support your view. Perhaps the "Angel of God" references in scripture was just another way of referring to the Holy Spirit.
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Old 10-24-2014, 06:23 AM   #16
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Interesting theory aron. I've always pondered why Jesus said he had to go up in order for the Holy Spirit to come down. The principle that either Jesus or the HS had to be at the throne of God would explain that.
My question to this and the rest of it is: Does figuring this out really help your living in this life? Does thinking that we know how it is that the Spirit does what He does make a real difference in what he does and how he does it? Does thinking that either Jesus or the Spirit has to be at the throne really change anything?

The point is that it is all what we cannot see and cannot manage or control, therefore figuring it out does not change how it applies to us, if at all. Therefore to get so deep into all of this is to spend time trying to get our theology right at the cost of what? Our focus on obedience?

Some have suggested that for a century the church was living and being instructed in how to live, then with the second, third, fourth, etc. generations of believers, they got too engaged in the minutia of knowing it correctly (doctrine and orthodoxy) and less about the living. Obviously not a whole lot less about the living, because that is still a lot of what is buried in the ritual of the RCC. But even they are more concerned with the dogma than in the practice.

And I believe that this is the reason that the people who write the books on topics like this so often end out being examples of some of the worst of Christianity. It is because they have lost sight of the true core of the faith and are overly distracted to things that are meaningless to our daily living. Once on a rabbit trail, the only thing you see are rabbits. The main road is long gone.

And for me, the purpose of this forum is to identify the rabbit trails, show why they are rabbit trails, identify the bear traps set by poachers, show why they are bear traps set by poachers, and show people the way back to the main road. Digging really deep into one of the rabbit trails does not help those lost on rabbit trails. Instead it makes the rabbit trail look more enticing.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:51 AM   #17
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I've always pondered why Jesus said he had to go up in order for the Holy Spirit to come down. The principle that either Jesus or the HS had to be at the throne of God would explain that..
Yes it has some explanatory power for me.


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I assume that in your view the Holy Spirit is still an uncreated being as most people think of angels as having been created..
Yes.



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The Logos comes forth from the Father and in turn directs the Spirit what to do...
Right. That is what I see. Jesus is the Great High Priest. He is interceding with the Father, and through Him the Father directs the flow of the Spirit.

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Regarding the person of the Holy Spirit, in your view the Holy Spirit being the "Great Angel" would have feelings and a personality. This also seems to be confirmed by scripture that ascribes attributes of a person to the Spirit, for example he can be grieved (Eph 4:30), as opposed to some who view the HS as simply a force or influence that emanates from God..
Also we can see, perhaps, the relations of the Holy Spirit with the ministering angels. This relationship is key because it is a picture of the relationship you and I should have. They are many, but they are one. You and I are very different but in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we are one. We can cooperate, and function together. You don't lord over me or I over you. We are not like the Gentiles who need whips and chains and guns for people to get in line.

The Personality of the Holy Spirit is a very interesting notion.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:12 AM   #18
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... the purpose of this forum is to identify the rabbit trails, show why they are rabbit trails, identify the bear traps set by poachers, show why they are bear traps set by poachers, and show people the way back to the main road. Digging really deep into one of the rabbit trails does not help those lost on rabbit trails. Instead it makes the rabbit trail look more enticing.
Everyone has something to bring to the ecclesia. Many of them are "alternate views", including of the Trinity. The ecclesia decides what are rabbit trails and what are not.

Certainly the recommendation of one of our posters, toward the works of Che Ahn, and the New Apostolic Reformation, looks to this sojourning ex-LRC'er to be a bear trap.

http://insightswithbillyvee.wordpres...al-ministries/

The Holy Spirit is ineffable and thus our typed words on an internet forum probably are rabbit trails at best. I admit that, and the rank speculative character of my writing here. But I will attempt a mild justification of my writing on this thread. When I began to "see Jesus" and "look away unto Jesus" in the text of the OT, namely in the Psalms, I began to perceive something I had never imagined: the relation, invisible and unseen, yet very real, of the Son on Earth with His Father in Heaven. In the words of the Psalmist the framework for the spiritual reality began to suggest itself. Not as points of doctrine but as something for me to pay attention to, to learn from, be encouraged from. It is not my relationship with God, but rather my perception, by faith, of the relationship of the Only Begotten Son with His Father. This began to "dwell in me richly", or more richly anyway. It changed me. I think.

Likewise, when I was reading John 1:51 and Jesus said "You will see" I inexplicably took it personally, as if it were a personal command, like I would see it as well as Nathaniel and the others. That led to Luke 7 (an ideosyncratic choice, I know) and thence to the throne scene of Revelations 1. In Revelation 1:17 John wrote that he fell down as dead, from the power of the vision, and I began to feel that motive force, as I read. That led me into the throne scenes of Daniel 7:9,10, Ezekiel 1 & 10, Isaiah 6, Moses on the mountain in Exodus 24 (arguably the template for the tabernacle/temple), and also Zechariah 3.

Now it has long occurred to me that perhaps John the Disciple was not reeling from fermented sea-gull eggs as awareness has suggested, but rather that his Apocalypse was a carefully composed document, borne forth from years of reading, prayer, observation. John's throne scene in Revelation chapter 1 is deliberate, and central to everything that went before, and is to follow.

So -- I conclude with this: for me, seeing the relations between the Holy Spirit and the ministering spirits (Heb 1:14) in the scriptural text, is a template for me with others here on Earth. Yes, I have the Beatitudes and the rest of the gospels, but just as the Psalms showed me something deeper and hidden, that of the Son with the Father, so the throne scene opened for me, a window to the kingdom of heaven, and suggested relations therein. Now, did that impact my living? Given the rambling, semi-coherent style of my composition, probably not much. But hopefully it didn't distract anyone. I really write for my own personal benefit.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:40 AM   #19
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As awareness has suggested … [John's] Apocalypse was a carefully composed document … John's throne scene in Revelation chapter 1 is deliberate, and central to everything that went before, and is to follow.
Have you ever wondered why Matthew (Matthew 24), Mark (Mark 13) and Luke (Luke 21) all included the Olivet Discourse in their narratives yet John is strangely silent about it in his gospel. Why did he exclude it? Wasn't he the one among the Lord's disciples most likely to write about it?

Actually, he wrote a whole epistle on that discourse and we know it as The Revelation of Jesus Christ, a powerful narrative which corresponds in many places throughout with the structure of Ezekiel.
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Old 10-24-2014, 12:05 PM   #20
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My question to this and the rest of it is: Does figuring this out really help your living in this life? Does thinking that we know how it is that the Spirit does what He does make a real difference in what he does and how he does it? Does thinking that either Jesus or the Spirit has to be at the throne really change anything?
It's still prolly better than sitting at the bar every night slurping up cold ones and cracking one liners to the ladies ...

aron's way is to look at the scriptures afresh. Much better than systematizing trinitarian doctrines for our consumption or posting wiki articles. Gag!

If God didn't want us to explore each and every verse, then why would He even write them?
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Old 10-24-2014, 12:09 PM   #21
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Now it has long occurred to me that perhaps John the Disciple was not reeling from fermented sea-gull eggs as awareness has suggested, but rather that his Apocalypse was a carefully composed document ...
Amen to that!

No offense to ole awareness, but he musta ate the wrong mushrooms with his burger that day.
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Old 10-24-2014, 01:28 PM   #22
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If God didn't want us to explore each and every verse, then why would He even write them?
Surely you jest?
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:46 PM   #23
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It's still prolly better than sitting at the bar every night slurping up cold ones and cracking one liners to the ladies ...

aron's way is to look at the scriptures afresh. Much better than systematizing trinitarian doctrines for our consumption or posting wiki articles. Gag!

If God didn't want us to explore each and every verse, then why would He even write them?
Not sure how to answer this one.

Your first comment is meaningless because the activity you give is worse than a false dichotomy. The alternatives are not "dissect the Spirit or go to a bar to pick up women." While they are alternatives, the other alternatives aren't even a rational "undistributed middle." They are just a universe of alternatives.

All I can see in this "looking at the scriptures afresh" is an alternative systematizing of doctrines that look different from trinitarian doctrines. I agree that the systematizing of doctrines is nowhere near as important as many do. But the reason is not that there is nothing to them, but that most of them do not actually relate to our living. And whether we are right or not about three persons and one essence, or whether the Son or the Spirit has to be present at the throne of God (the Father) does not change one iota of the reality (or lack thereof) about our position before God. And whether our living has been in accordance with what we have been charged to do. It is (IMO) a better sounding discussion of angels on the head of a pin. Same for the trinitarian discussion. And for a significant portion of the Calvinist v Arminian controversies. If they do not affect my connection to God, and do no direct me along the path that I am to take, then knowing it is, at some level, a waste of brain cells.

Now whatever is the truth surely does affect my relationship with God. But it is not true because I know it is true. Neither does it affect my relationship because I know it correctly. Rather it affects my relationship because that is what it is — without reference to my understanding of it.

So why did God write what he did? To tell us what he actually told us. Otherwise this is just a variant on the Cahn theories. Looking for secret messages by making assertions beyond what is actually there.

And too often we try to make hay out of the minutia when it was simply part of the overall text. "I went to the market" becomes a study in the kind of market. We create systems that go beyond the actual text, then based on the systems, extend beyond that because of our inquisitiveness.

For example, several years ago we discussed the oneness of God, and there were some serious discussions about whether God the Father was actually present on the cross with Jesus. The question arises because we create a particular system of what is the trinity based on statements like "I and the Father are one" and we extrapolate. If they are one, what is one? I must mean that they are the same "person." And if they are the same person, then if Jesus was crucified, then the Father must have been there on the cross and experienced it. (Then who turned his back?)

The problem is not that there is a question to ask. It is that there is no answer and it was not suggested as a meaningful question. God didn't talk about that. He talked about other things. The goal is not to figure out where we can take the things said beyond their context and see what might pop out. It is to take and understand them in their context.

What is the purpose of any particular passage. Is is to provide a mine of buried treasures, or to provide details of the "story" that it is part of.

I note that there are at least a couple of things brought up in this thread that come from sources for which I do not have familiarity. The thing about angels of children constantly beholding the face of God (or something like that). Assuming it actually is in scripture, what is it talking about? Probably not the angels, but the children and their importance to God. But we turn it into a study of angels. That is what dissecting so many verses gets you.

But lately it seems that I run into verses that we (not just in the LRC) are taught one thing or another about, but when you just read it in its context, you suddenly wonder where that came from. And the answer probably is "someone mining for nuggets in the fortune cookies that you get when verses are ripped from their context."

Like "there can be only one life-giving spirit, and that is the Holy Spirit, and therefore the last Adam (Christ) must have become the Holy Spirit." You would never even go there if you just read the whole passage straight through. But by parsing through the words, looking for something about "spirit" or "Spirit" you find it in that verse, and by ignoring the context, make it into a study on the oneness of God.

And, if God's oneness is simply that they are literally one person, then you and I must be one person (in this life) because we are to be one as the Father and Son are one.
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:33 PM   #24
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All I can see in this "looking at the scriptures afresh" is an alternative systematizing of doctrines that look different from trinitarian doctrines. I agree that the systematizing of doctrines is nowhere near as important as many do. But the reason is not that there is nothing to them, but that most of them do not actually relate to our living. ...If they do not affect my connection to God, and do no direct me along the path that I am to take, then knowing it is, at some level, a waste of brain cells..
I would agree here. I tried to keep that out front as I wrote. Writing a post on a discussion forum is arguably not a revelation of truth as much as it's someone showing that they are wasting their time by tapping on a keyboard. It is virtual reality, not reality. It is not real.

So I write, simply because I am an idea guy. I just like ideas. The idea of the trinity never made any sense to me, and I remember when Lee v the Bible Answer Man was the rage. It bored me to death. So I am maybe doing the same.

But... I do remember that John fell down as dead, when he saw the brilliant face of Jesus Christ (Rev 1:17). Sometimes in the text I feel like I see a vision, and a voice tells me, "Write what you see..." So I write. What percentage of my writing is sounding of brass, and what is a true response to a true command? Probably I don't want to know -- I'd be too ashamed. But I love the Word, and I read stuff, and see stuff, and write my comments. Hopefully it will impact my living.

"Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly"... what happens when I wrestle with the Word is my consciousness gets augmented with something else. God is speaking. All the stuff I wrote about angels was about one word: Obedience. The evil spirits, the unclean spirits, the devils, are/were disobedient. The Holy angels of God, the ministering spirits, the Great Angel, they are completely subsumed by the will of God. Now, could I have written a treatise on obedience, cleanness, and holiness without mentioning angels? Yes, but somehow I could not. Cuz my journey went through John 1:51. We all systematize, and mine included John 1:51. Lee saw the Normal Church Life there (from the "House of God" part in Genesis 28), and I saw angels ascending and descending. So we all systematize, and each of our systematizations are unique. That is the glory of the ecclesia, in my view. We each one have.

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All And too often we try to make hay out of the minutia when it was simply part of the overall text. "I went to the market" becomes a study in the kind of market. We create systems that go beyond the actual text, then based on the systems, extend beyond that because of our inquisitiveness..
We look at the text, and make logical systems built upon the text. Yes. Jesus did this: "Whose son is the Christ?"

"David's son"

"Okay, then how does David in Spirit call him Lord, saying, Jehovah said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand until I make all Your enemies Your footstool'? How does David call Him Lord?"

Is this not logical construction, based on the text? The problem is when we run amok, and go off the deep end, and related, when we get into an unbalanced situation where only one "Seer of the age" gets to create logical constructions and nobody can restrain the madness of the prophet. The ecclesia is about pruning the nonsense as much as about presenting revelation. It goes together.

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All And, if God's oneness is simply that they are literally one person, then you and I must be one person (in this life) because we are to be one as the Father and Son are one.
I think the above is case in point. If you and I are one, just as Christ and the Father are one, does that mean I am OBW? No, but rather it means that we have commonality of purpose, will, intent, thought, heart, and mind. Just like the Centurion and Caesar in Luke 7 were one. That is logic. We do it all the time. In small doses, appropriately supervised, it's okay.
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Old 10-24-2014, 07:35 PM   #25
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Not sure how to answer this one.

Your first comment is meaningless because the activity you give is worse than a false dichotomy. The alternatives are not "dissect the Spirit or go to a bar to pick up women." While they are alternatives, the other alternatives aren't even a rational "undistributed middle." They are just a universe of alternatives.
You sound like Mr. Spock. Lighten up, it was just a joke. Sounded like you were going to blow a fuse.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:33 PM   #26
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You sound like Mr. Spock. Lighten up, it was just a joke. Sounded like you were going to blow a fuse.
And therein lies the problem with written comments and responses. It is sometimes impossible to determine what is serous and what is tongue-in-cheek.

And one of the reasons that I started with "not sure how to answer this one."

And my response was to speak to the possibility of a serious comment. It wouldn't be the first time that a comment like that had been made by almost any one of us in both a serious way and at least one other time in jest. And I am probably guilty of the same thing at times. Make an unclear comment that was intended to be just a little too much for comic effect and end out with someone taking offense at it.

And it turns out you were only joking (sounds like a Rod Stewart song). But even so, there have been some who would say something just like that and mean it. So the response may not be totally useless.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:15 AM   #27
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"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels"

I wanted to talk about 2 types of conflict. First, imagine if you will 2 kingdoms at war, and both are alien to one another and easily distinguishable. Like the Japanese and American forces struggling on a barren volcanic outcrop in the Pacific Ocean in 1943. The men are easily distinguished as different races, with different uniforms, equipment, language, cultures, and even fighting styles. No 'Banzai' attacks for U.S. troops! Very easy to distinguish each side, and hard to confuse them.

Now, if you will, imagine a conflict in which both sides are nearly indistinguishable. Both have common heritage, culture, language, and even appearance. Now, I would hazard that in the second conflict you would have more "crossing the line"; you would have more infiltration versus frontal assaults. The intent is the same: destruction of the others' capacity to function, but the means is quite different. In other words, deception becomes a primary weapon. Pretense of alliance becomes a means to the hasten the end, which is annhilation, and destruction.

Interesting, that in Revelation 12 the war is depicted as being "in heaven", not "between heaven and hell" or some such. And you see the effect in scripture: in spiritual terms, you have something where "Satan masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Cor 11).

You have Peter in one moment conveying the Father's revelation, next moment becoming a vector for Satan (Matt 16).

You have David confronting more foes like his son Absalom, and those who backed him, and king Saul, than Philistine giants (interestingly, David at one point was compelled to infiltrate Abimilech's camp, pretending to be an enemy of Israel, to hide from Saul!). See e.g. Psalm 55: "…For it is not an enemy who reproaches me, Then I could bear it; Nor is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me, Then I could hide myself from him. But it is you, a man my equal, My companion and my familiar friend; We who had sweet fellowship together Walked in the house of God in the throng.…"

You have Judas kissing Jesus on the cheek. "He who sups with Me; he will betray me"

You have Jesus' warning in Matt 24: "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

In the gospels, you have those closest physically to the holy temple, i.e. the Priests and scribes, being the most vehement opposers of Jesus. They may also send emissaries, cloaked as wanna-be disciples, infiltrating the crowds and asking tricky questions, trying to snare Jesus in His own words.

You see something, post-resurrection, like "hidden reefs in your love feasts" (Jude 1:12). You may see many false apostles, false teachers, false prophets (e.g. warnings in 1 John 4:1).

In the Lord's Recovery Church we came in, supposedly on the "proper ground", and therefore we were "covered" by the "apostle". Just do whatever the latest publication says. Everything will be fine. All the sin and death is back in "fallen", "degraded", and "darkened" Christianity. It is behind us --- "No, no, no no no I'll never go back anymore"! No more "thirsting in the barren land of Babylon" for us!! Here in the "proper church life" we "drink the river and eat the tree", as if our publications brought us to Revelation chapter 22 already. No poison here! No leaven! Just the pure word of God, cut straight by the Seer of the Age.

Do you see the deception? The deception says, "No darkness here!" Instead you have "When the light becomes darkness, how great is the darkness!" You have darkness masquerading as light. How great is this darkness, indeed.
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Old 10-26-2014, 10:04 AM   #28
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... an alternative systematizing of doctrines that look different from trinitarian doctrines. ..... If they do not affect my connection to God, and do no direct me along the path that I am to take, then knowing it is, at some level, a waste of brain cells.

Now whatever is the truth surely does affect my relationship with God. But it is not true because I know it is true. Neither does it affect my relationship because I know it correctly. Rather it affects my relationship because that is what it is — without reference to my understanding of it..
This point deserves a better reply, and so I will try again. Paul wrote, "I have not been disobedient to the heavenly vision"; John wrote, "Blessed are they who read these words, and who keep them, for the time is near"; Jesus said, "Blessed are the doers of the word, and not merely the hearers." It is your actions that define you, not doctrines. However, on the flip side, if there is no heavenly vision, then what are we to follow? What do we obey, except for the revealed Word? If God's Word doesn't shine a light on our pathway, what steps are we then to take? Moses had to first see the burning bush, and turn aside, before he could go back to Egypt. Without a vision, there is nothing to do.

Since I began this thread on the Holy Spirit as the Great Angel of Jehovah, I would say that just as the Psalms showed me Jesus' relationship (i.e. a continuous behavioral connection) to the Father in heaven, so too does this attempt at "systematizing visions" of the details of the unseen world also suggest, for me, a pathway. If the heavenly kingdom is marked by filial piety, devotion, and obedience, what of us here on Earth? How do I treat my neighbor? And, from whence cometh my help? Now, I may be able to to all this effectively ignoring the angels, or at least marginalize them as bit players, and focus instead on the Holy Spirit(whatever that may be, shorn from its surrounding material). But - since the HS as an amorphous and impersonal "1/3 of the Godhead" never really captivated my attention, and since "Behold, He comes with myriads of His holy ones" may have sparked imaginative and behavioral response in the original hearers, it may be worth considering today as well.

As I said, there is the possibly love there, faithulness, obedience, joy, peace and the manifested will of God, for us made plain. In a word, redemption in all its glorious detail. And this does not distract us from the gospel message but rather confirms it. If Jesus is presented by the written witnesses as "having "learned obedience" the surely we who name Him should endeavor to follow.

If the angels are "ministering spirits" and the Holy Spirit is the Great Angel, the Angel of Jehovah, then is there a connection between the two? I suspect. That is pretty much all I am saying here. I am not skilled enough at systematization to flesh it out fully. I probably don't want to. I like the mysterious. God is better than our systematizations (all together now: "Incarnation, inclusion, intensification!!") But I do sense love there in the records, and obedience, faithfulness, and devotion. So I've been pleased with my tentative foray. Hopefully it's not a distraction but a reinforcement; an alternative viewpoint of the same view.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:46 PM   #29
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A cursory review tells me to get my Holy Spirit from the Word. Che Ahn's bio blurb on his book promotion says that in a decade he went from a nobody to running 5,000 churches. So self-aggrandizement and promotion surely are here. The old confidence game, at work.

Second, this self-styled "apostle" has "anointed" people like Todd Bentley at Lakeland Revival and James Stalnaker at Gateway church in Hollywood CA as his apostolic peers. Oops. And the whole Toronto Airport/Lakeland thing is not really my cup of tea. I don't criticize, or condemn, but the whole shake-and-bark-like-a-dog thing, compared to the pleasure I take in searching the Word, just don't pull hard at me. So I'll probably pass.
The Radical Middle would be highly reconmended by Bill Jackson ( Vineyard pastor ) then on the divine Balance between the WORD & THE H.Spirit
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:50 PM   #30
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The Radical Middle would be highly reconmended by Bill Jackson ( Vineyard pastor ) then on the divine Balance between the WORD & THE H.Spirit

I Know John Wimber who's benn highly critisized by Hank Hanagraff has taught much on having the divine balance of the WORD & THE SPIRIT
who come's from a Quaker /Calvary Chapel backgroung
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Old 10-28-2014, 04:20 PM   #31
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Amen to that!

No offense to ole awareness, but he musta ate the wrong mushrooms with his burger that day.
LoL - no offense taken. I'm just jealous of the guy calling himself John. From all the highfalutin hallucinations in the book he musta had some good ****, as they say.

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Now it has long occurred to me that perhaps John the Disciple was not reeling from fermented sea-gull eggs as awareness has suggested, but rather that his Apocalypse was a carefully composed document ...
Oh but I thought John was exiled on Patmos and wrote it on a rock while it was revealed to him ... with only a loaf of spoiled ergot bread, ink, papyrus, and quill in hand. Isn't that the way it happened?

How else could the book have been written?
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Old 10-28-2014, 04:59 PM   #32
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How else could the book have been written?
How about something like 400 OT allusions? How crazy is that? Crazy like a fox. Crazy like David in front of Abimalech.
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Old 10-31-2014, 09:03 AM   #33
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How about something like 400 OT allusions? How crazy is that? Crazy like a fox. Crazy like David in front of Abimalech.
You give the impression that John spent his time curled up in his study somewhere on Patmos with his rolls of parchment, and with his Scriptures, and with, let's not forget, of course, his ink-quill, and in WL's oft-repeated words, 'after many years of careful study', produced the Revelation. I'm sorry I always thought that he was in the 'spirit' on the day of the Lord when Jesus suddenly appeared to him and instructed him as to what to write to the seven churches in Asia-minor. Then later, after he saw a door opened in heaven a voice summoned him up, "to show him things...", and then he was immediately in the spirit and he could see 'the throne'. So, as far Revelation is concerned, John wrote exclusively of things that he was shown. I think it is erroneous to present his book as an exemplary work of scholarship (though it is an outstanding book) giving the idea that he spent much time and effort excavating the Scriptures, and finally lighted upon, and masterfully incorporated into his epistle, over '400 OT allusions'.

I also have a little trouble with your interpretation of the 'throne-room scene'. You took a leap of logic when you termed the 'seven spirits of God' as the 'seven angels'. Really? If you read the whole context of that throne-room scene you will notice that John took extra special care to mark out and distinguish all the different 'characters' in that scene. For example, in addition to the seven spirits burning before the throne (that you have so eloquently expounded upon), John writes of "...ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.." ..of angels!

...that is...a mind-boggling..

10,000 multiplied by 10,000 = 100,000,000 angels
(100,000,000 angels) multiplied by (1000's of times) = X angels
(X angels) multiplied by (1000's of times) = XY angels
(XY angels) ad infinitum = billions upon billions upon billions of angels.

And where are all these billions of angels? John furnishes us with the answer...and states emphatically that they are "roundabout the throne". And there is no tension between this and the fact as stated in Matthew 18: "that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

Furthermore, in addition to these myriad of angels, John identifies 24 seats, occupied by 24 elders with "crowns of gold" upon their heads. They, too, are "roundabout the throne". Then in addition to those elders, four beasts are pointed out by John. They likewise are "roundabout the throne" and they are also "in the midst of the throne". The four beasts are not alike and are described variously as being like a lion, a calf, and a flying eagle; the last beast is described as having "a face of a man". It has also been 'tentatively suggested' that these four creatures each represent four different races of advanced alien beings scattered throughout the universe, man being one of these races.

And then, lastly, John writes of seeing "a Lamb" standing not only in the midst of all these creatures, but also in the "midst of the throne". The lamb itself appeared as if it "had been slain" and had "seven horns" and "seven eyes" which are "the seven spirits of God"

Now, in view of this very vivid scene, let me ask you: by deliberately interchanging (albeit with good intentions) the Spirit of God for a created angel or angels, are you not running counter to what appears to be John's apparent purpose in his very studied, purposeful, and almost preemptive, attempt to draw circles around and rigidly distinguish each and every character in the scene in his portrayal of them to us; the unstated purpose being that we might not confuse the Spirit of God for an angel.

But note also, that he does intentionally mesh the identities of the Lamb and the seven spirits of God. Without a doubt, they are, as far as the picture is presented, and to all intents and purposes, and as much as I hate to use the term..."organically united"! John leaves us in no doubt at all that "the seven eyes of the lamb" are "the seven spirits of God"

Now, I'm not certain that you believe in the Trinitarian proposition of God; and certain earlier statements of yours would seem to suggest that, at least in part, you are making a half-hearted attempt to debunk that theory; but wouldn't the throne-room scene, that you keep coming back to for support of your alternative view, far from backing you up, actually render your new approach potentially heretical? Because, quite to the contrary, the throne-room scene would seem to argue for a co-existing and co-inhering God. Now, I am not calling you a heretic (yet): I have read all your posts and understand that you are trying to see something that the Lord is possibly beginning to open up to you. I have similar experiences. But I also understand that I need to be balanced; to be open to being checked; to being questioned and examined; to being sloooow; and occasionally, I might need to go back to the trash-can to retrieve something I previously had esteemed had no value...yup..

That being said, there does seem to be some great mystery surrounding that figure: the Angel of the Lord, or the Great Angel (even WL, believe it or not, conceded to that). You might also want to take note of the fact, for your own good, that there are certain places in Scripture that indicate that there are some spiritual matters that are best left well alone. There are things, Paul says, in the heavens so past human comprehension that it is simply not lawful for a mere man to speak of them. We are better insulated, it seems the lesson is, keeping to the clear and open revelation of Scripture. Moreover, in relation to this subject of 'angels', Paul, when describing the OT tabernacle and the Most Holy Place mentions, fleetingly and with almost reverential awe, the "cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat" (Heb 9:5). He confesses that he 'cannot' speak of them!...and simply moves on. Maybe you should keep digging, aron, or may be you should heed Paul's example and just stop, I don't know; but perhaps you might want to choose a different excavation spot to find your answers, the throne-room doesn't seem to be it. Perhaps the Lord is opening up something to you. From my experience, what you eventually find is rarely what you expect to find. How cool is the Lord?



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Old 10-31-2014, 11:35 AM   #34
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Great post Mephi (Can we call you that for short? If it somehow damages the reason you took the name, I'm sure we can accommodate the longer version).

In keeping with Alternative Views:

When you advise: "Keep digging, aron; but perhaps you might want to choose a different excavation spot to find your answers . . ."

aron might find help reading another multivalent Apocalypse, written circa 300 yrs before the book of Rev. : The Book of Enoch.

There it explains what happened to Enoch after being taken up into heaven.

He became the chief archangel ... head of 'em all. Head of the billions upon billions of angels.

Ha


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You give the impression that John spent his time curled up in his study somewhere on Patmos with his rolls of parchment, and with his Scriptures, and with, let's not forget, of course, his ink-quill, and in WL's oft-repeated words, 'after many years of careful study', produced the Revelation. I'm sorry I always thought that he was in the 'spirit' on the day of the Lord when Jesus suddenly appeared to him and instructed him as to what to write to the seven churches in Asia-minor. Then later, after he saw a door opened in heaven a voice summoned him up, "to show him things...", and then he was immediately in the spirit and he could see 'the throne'. So, as far Revelation is concerned, John wrote exclusively of things that he was shown. I think it is erroneous to present his book as an exemplary work of scholarship (though it is an outstanding book) giving the idea that he spent much time and effort excavating the Scriptures, and finally lighted upon, and masterfully incorporated into his epistle, over '400 OT allusions'.

I also have a little trouble with your interpretation of the 'throne-room scene'. You took a leap of logic when you termed the 'seven spirits of God' as the 'seven angels'. Really? If you read the whole context of that throne-room scene you will notice that John took extra special care to mark out and distinguish all the different 'characters' in that scene. For example, in addition to the seven spirits burning before the throne (that you have so eloquently expounded upon), John writes of "...ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.." ..of angels!

...that is...a mind-boggling..

10,000 multiplied by 10,000 = 100,000,000 angels
(100,000,000 angels) multiplied by (1000's of times) = X angels
(X angels) multiplied by (1000's of times) = XY angels
(XY angels) ad infinitum = billions upon billions upon billions of angels.

And where are all these billions of angels? John furnishes us with the answer...and states emphatically that they are "roundabout the throne". And there is no tension between this and the fact as stated in Matthew 18: "that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

Furthermore, in addition to these myriad of angels, John identifies 24 seats, occupied by 24 elders with "crowns of gold" upon their heads. They, too, are "roundabout the throne". Then in addition to those elders, four beasts are pointed out by John. They likewise are "roundabout the throne" and they are also "in the midst of the throne". The four beasts are not alike and are described variously as being like a lion, a calf, and a flying eagle; the last beast is described as having "a face of a man".

And then, lastly, John writes of seeing "a Lamb" standing not only in the midst of all these creatures, but also in the "midst of the throne". The lamb itself appeared as if it "had been slain" and had "seven horns" and "seven eyes" which are "the seven spirits of God"

Now, in view of this very vivid scene, let me ask you: by deliberately interchanging (albeit with good intentions) the Spirit of God for a created angel or angels, are you not running counter to what appears to be John's apparent purpose in his very studied, purposeful, and almost preemptive, attempt to draw lines between and rigidly distinguish every character in the scene in his portrayal of them to us; the unstated purpose being that we might not confuse the Spirit of God for an angel.

But note also, that he does intentionally mesh the identities of the Lamb and the seven spirits of God. Without a doubt, they are, as far as the picture is presented, and to all intents and purposes, and as much as I hate to use the term..."organically united"! John leaves us in no doubt at all that "the seven eyes of the lamb" are "the seven spirits of God"

Now, I'm not certain that you believe in the Trinitarian proposition of God; and certain earlier statements of yours would seem to suggest that, at least in part, you are making a half-hearted attempt to debunk that theory; but wouldn't the throne-room scene, that you keep coming back to for support of your alternative view, far from backing you up, actually render your new approach potentially heretical? Because, quite to the contrary, the throne-room scene would seem to argue for a co-existing and co-inhering God. Now, I am not calling you a heretic (yet): I have read all your posts and understand that you are trying to see something that the Lord is possibly beginning to open up to you. I have similar experiences. But I also understand that I need to be balanced; to be open to being checked; to being questioned and examined; to being sloooow; and occasionally, I might need to go back to the trash-can to retrieve something I previously had esteemed had no value...yup..

That being said, there does seem to be some great mystery surrounding that figure: the Angel of the Lord, or the Great Angel (even WL, believe it or not, conceded to that). Keep digging, aron; but perhaps you might want to choose a different excavation spot to find your answers, the throne-room doesn't seem to be it. Perhaps the Lord is opening up something to you. From my experience, what you eventually find is rarely what you expected to find. How cool is the Lord?



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Old 10-31-2014, 12:33 PM   #35
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Great post Mephi (Can we call you that for short? If it somehow damages the reason you took the name, I'm sure we can accommodate the longer version).

In keeping with Alternative Views:

When you advise: "Keep digging, aron; but perhaps you might want to choose a different excavation spot to find your answers . . ."

aron might find help reading another multivalent Apocalypse, written circa 300 yrs before the book of Rev. : The Book of Enoch.

There it explains what happened to Enoch after being taken up into heaven.

He became the chief archangel ... head of 'em all. Head of the billions upon billions of angels.

Ha
..you may feel free to call me Mephi, awareness, or just Meph, if you like...

I'm glad you appreciated my post. I added something to the last paragraph which you might find interesting.

As for the book of Enoch, and the claim that he became the chief archangel, well that just sounds preposterous right from the word go...but then again...what do I know? Maybe aron should delve into it and research it, and then declare to us its merits, if any. After all, the apostle Paul did hint strongly that he had either read some writings associated with Enoch, or received some oral tradition related to Enoch. As to whether those particular writings are the very book you have referred to, I cannot tell; we shall have to let aron find that out for us, shan't we? Where can that book be found, anyway?

Paul's hint: "And Enoch also the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints..." (Jude:14)...
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Old 10-31-2014, 01:20 PM   #36
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Where can that book be found, anyway?
I think the three books can be found on the web. If not I can provide all 3 books in either mobi (eReaders) or pdf, upon request.

Ha
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Old 10-31-2014, 04:33 PM   #37
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You give the impression that John spent his time curled up in his study somewhere on Patmos with his rolls of parchment, and with his Scriptures, and with, let's not forget, of course, his ink-quill, and in WL's oft-repeated words, 'after many years of careful study', produced the Revelation. I'm sorry I always thought that he was in the 'spirit' on the day of the Lord when Jesus suddenly appeared to him and instructed him as to what to write to the seven churches in Asia-minor.
Well, suppose that I suddenly decide that Jesus told me to respond to your post? Then, when I write, I use some common referents, such as the Bible, to make my points? The writing is a combination of inspiration, done in the moment, combined with material which has been already reviewed, and then used because of its common meaning. Surely a voice spoke to John and said, "What you see, write, and send..." But what did John then see? Visions which were quite reminiscent of OT apocalyptic visions (Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, etc). Those were the common referents.

Remember where Jesus would speak a "public" word, a parable, then say, "They who have ears to hear, let them hear"? Then in private Jesus would explain the meaning to his close followers. John was arguably doing the same thing here. He would give a public, exoteric, vision, then say, "Blessed are they who have ears to hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches". In other words, consider wisely what esoteric, hidden meanings these visions have. And given that many of them referred to common themes from the Jewish scriptures, surely meaning, commonly understood, would be brought to bear.

Suppose that in Revelation 3 the Spirit says, "Buy gold refined in fire" to the church in Laodicea. Now, the OT (Malachi, Zechariah, Hosea, Daniel, Isaiah) texts all speak of refining fires, furnaces of purification, etc. Don't you think John would expect his readers to get meaning from the commonly accepted texts?

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I also have a little trouble with your interpretation of the 'throne-room scene'. You took a leap of logic when you termed the 'seven spirits of God' as the 'seven angels'. Really? If you read the whole context of that throne-room scene you will notice that John took extra special care to mark out and distinguish all the different 'characters' in that scene. For example, in addition to the seven spirits burning before the throne (that you have so eloquently expounded upon), John writes of "...ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.." ..of angels!
Well, the seven angels are before the throne, and the 24 elders are around the throne. Can you see the difference? The seven are clearly closer than the 24. "in front of" spatially is clearly closer and more important than "around", who are clearly differentiated from the "ten thousands of ten thousands". So there is a hierarchy here. It isn't just this vague scene with thrones and angels and flames burning.

Remember that the author was very conscious or order, and place. He and his brother requested seats on the right and left hands. So who sat next to whom was very important to him. It remained so, in his Apocalypse. God is on the throne. "Hear, O Israel, YHWH your God is one God", etc. Then, in front of the throne, is the LOGOS. The firstborn of all creation. Everything that came into being came through Him. The LOGOS even came to earth, and rescued the lost sheep, and bled for them, then was elevated next to the Father's right hand. Then, next, you have the seven first-created angels. Remember that the Centurion said that "I am a man UNDER authority". Jesus was under the Father, and the HS was arguably under him. Jesus said, "The Father is greater than everybody else" (John 10:29), including Him, Jesus, the speaker. So the vague "The Holy Spirit is one-third of the Godhead" idea doesn't interest me as much as this idea of a clearly defined and presented hierarchy.

The thing to remember, though, on this side of the Bema (Judgment Seat) was that if you, say, consider yourself as great, you will be sent down, in shame. If you consider yourself as nothing, you might be pleasantly surprised. So those who claim to be something in this age, have revealed who and what they really are, in the kingdom of the Father. They have chosen the last place, there in the eternal kingdom. Being great on earth is not an analog to being great in the heavenly kingdom. As the tuna fish commercial used to say, "Sorry, Charlie".

As far as Jesus being "one" with the Father, you can explain that by saying the Centurion was "one" with Caesar. Whatever Caesar wanted, the Centurion represented in full. When you saw the Centurion, you saw Caesar. When the Centurion spoke to his servants, Caesar was speaking through him. His being UNDER authority made him OVER the servants who were doing his bidding. It was also thus with Jesus and the HS (angels). And as I said earlier, Jesus said that we are to be one even as He is one with the Father. You and I are one even though you are you and I am I. Because we both are (ostensibly) fully cooperative with the One who rules all.
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Old 10-31-2014, 05:10 PM   #38
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..
As for the book of Enoch, and the claim that he became the chief archangel, well that just sounds preposterous right from the word go...but then again...what do I know? Maybe aron should delve into it and research it, and then declare to us its merits, if any. After all, the apostle Paul did hint strongly that he had either read some writings associated with Enoch, or received some oral tradition related to Enoch. As to whether those particular writings are the very book you have referred to, I cannot tell; we shall have to let aron find that out for us, shan't we? Where can that book be found, anyway?

The book of Enoch was preserved by the Ethiopian church. Then they found copies in the Qumran caves.

When you see the "gates of Hades", when you see the rebellious angels held in dark pits awaiting judgment, when you see Jesus going and preaching to the disobedient angels, when you have Jesus saying that an evil spirit goes out from a man and flies around in waterless places seeking rest, when Jesus teaches that there is a pleasant section and a suffering section of Hades, there being a vast and unbridgable gulf between them, all this is from the Book of Enoch.

About Enoch becoming the great angel I have never heard. I don't ever recall that. I would have to check the source of that teaching. Certainly it doesn't seem like it's from the Bible itself, or from the first book. There were supposedly 3 books of Enoch. Only one of them, the so-called "First Enoch", was found in Qumran, and in Ethiopia. The others seem to be much later, and were not likely contiguous with the BC/CE centuries when the NT was composed. But 1 Enoch certainly seems to have been in wide circulation, and with some influence.
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Old 10-31-2014, 10:53 PM   #39
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When you see the "gates of Hades", when you see the rebellious angels held in dark pits awaiting judgment, when you see Jesus going and preaching to the disobedient angels, when you have Jesus saying that an evil spirit goes out from a man and flies around in waterless places seeking rest, when Jesus teaches that there is a pleasant section and a suffering section of Hades, there being a vast and unbridgable gulf between them, all this is from the Book of Enoch.
So is much of the movie Noah, btw.

Enoch also elaborates on the sons of God mentioned in Gen. 6. There were 200 of those bad boys (women always go for the bad boys, it is said -- and ya can't beat a son of God -- compete with that bro aron).

Enoch doesn't answer the question of how angels, or sons God -- invisible spirit beings -- could function sexually like a human male. And what about DNA differences? Humans can't mate with apes, for example.

But I guess sons of God, being sons of God, can do anything and take any form .. like Zeus, taking human form to produce mortal or half mortal offspring - it's an old and widespread motif.

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Originally Posted by aron
About Enoch becoming the great angel I have never heard.
I know. Pretty wild stuff. Yet the book reads like the book of Rev. ; many parallels between them. Both books, as I pointed out in passing, are multivalent in symbologies, messages, & meanings ; that can apply to any possible thing, situation, time, and age. They leave lots -- very lots -- to the imagination.

And Enoch has lots of spirits and angels and the like. Right up yer alley bro aron. And fun reading to boot.

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I would have to check the source of that teaching.
Good luck with that. Can we source the book of Rev.? If we say, "The Holy Spirit," perhaps the writing of Enoch could be claimed to be the same.

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Originally Posted by aron
Certainly it doesn't seem like it's from the Bible itself . . .
Bible, what Bible? Enoch was 250 yrs or more before any NT books were written. And the OT canon wasn't settled by then. So what Bible do you speak of?
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:19 AM   #40
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Bible, what Bible? Enoch was 250 yrs or more before any NT books were written. And the OT canon wasn't settled by then. So what Bible do you speak of?
I speak of the canonical Bible. Genesis to Revelation. I am trying to find out "what happened", so to speak; what people believed. So I'm like a detective, who has a set of witnesses, then physical evidence, then people who talked to the witnesses, then eventually I have some wild rumors floating around. I assign different credibility values to different sources. Few things are dismissed out of hand, except maybe today's "The National Examiner" on sale at the checkout counter, or maybe some website claiming that the Secretary General of the U.N. is really a reptile.

So Enoch has some credibility because it is clearly contemporary with the NT canon. It was widely circulated and had some clout. But it isn't the Bible. Less credible are "Slavonic Enoch" and other sources. But still not ignored.Anyway I don't know what the source of "Enoch became a great angel" is from.

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I agree, if only they stated "my opinion, my point of view..." rather than "The Truth...." The Truth as though they had the inside track on "The Truth"?
I admit that I am hypothesizing, that there may be some more overlap between the [singular] Holy Spirit and the [plural] ministering angels. Are the seven angels the Holy Spirit? No; I don't think so. I think that the Holy Spirit is the Great Angel of Revelation 10, referencing the OT. Then you have the "Protoctoi", the 7 first-created angels who stand before the throne. Then you have the 24 "elders" around the throne. Etc. John presents us with a concentric set of ministering spirits.

I'm functioning within a historically-derived view. By way of explanation: suppose there were 25 books in existence, which explained for us "The Truth" about the universe. Only 25 books, no more or less. Now, one book is about Chemistry, another about Biology, another about History, another about Religion, another is Philosophy, another is Poetry, etc. The combination of these 25 books gives us the sum total of what the Universe is, both factual and mythical. But each of us has a unique record of interaction with these sources. Each of us has some history which skews our own cognizance of "The Truth".

Me, for example, I started with Biology. I then I read History, then Mathematics. So my understanding of the third book is affected by my reading the other two; I used "meaning" from the first two to help me understand the third book. This is different from someone who started with Poetry, then Mythology. They will have a different "bias", or historically-derived understanding, as they peruse the subsequent books, and come to some understanding of what constitutes the Truth.

And this doesn't even take personal preference, family influences, etc. Maybe my dad always said, "Poetry is stupid" at the dinner table. That may affect my assigning relevance to Poetry as a source of meaning, and import. Out of the 25 books, I may have personal preference for six or seven which strongly shape my view of objective reality, and the rest are in descending order of importance.

The Ecclesia, to me, is where "each one has" a reading on The Truth, and each one of us presents our story, and it gets pruned and shaped by the Conversation. I'm affected if OBW says "nonsense" to my ideas. That doesn't mean they are nonsense, but someone whose opinion I trust thinks they don't hold any water. So I take that under advisement as I continue my investigations.

In my reading I use the Bible, but I also use the Church Fathers who had access to oral traditions. I use non-Christian sources like Philo and Josephus. I use non-canonical sources like 1 Enoch. For me, The Truth is that there is a kind of Nicene-era "Orthodoxy" that says that God is one, with three co-inherant equal "persons". That doesn't help me very much, frankly. It doesn't explain for me the Roman Centurion's analogy, that "I also have servants under me", or why there were seven spirits burning before the throne, or why Jesus spoke to the angel of the church in Ephesus, only to have the Spirit conclude the speaking to the church, or why The Holy Spirit, singular, manifested as multiple flames over the heads of the disciples on the day of Pentecost, or why Jesus said you would see angels, plural, ascending and descending upon the Son of Man, or why an angel told Philip to go down the south road out of Jerusalem, only to have the Holy Spirit tell him to run up to the Ethiopian eunuch's chariot. Etc. In scriptures there seems to be some overlap between Holy Spirit, singular, with ministering angels, who are holy spirits, plural. So I considered, and here on an "Alternative Views" section of the forum I hypothesized. But I don't presume to have "The Truth".

And none of us is today's "oracle", who has the Truth in toto. I think that kind of system set up by Nee and Lee distorts the conversation in the Ecclesia, and hinders the journey of all the rest. For example, Lee said that God is one essentially but three functionally, or economically. Instead, I hypothesize there that God is one economically, that Jesus is "one" economically or functionally with the Father because He presents us the Father as the Roman Centurion presented Caesar to the servants under him. Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by Me". Just like the servants could not bypass the Centurion to get to Caesar. When the Centurion spoke to them, that was Caesar speaking to them. And in the OT the witnesses (Manoah and his wife, Hagar, Moses, Jacob) could call the Angel "God" because the Angel represented God so completely. The Angel coming to them was, indeed, God coming to them, through a lesser intermediary agent. So to me, the Father on the throne is "God, who is one". Then you have the LOGOS before the throne, you have the Holy Spirit, you have the seven angels, the two Seraphim, etc. It is a universe of order. To me it's preferable to the vague, nebulous (and contradictory?) "God is one and God is three".

In my own case, I began with the reading in John 1:51 where Jesus said, "You will see angels ascending and descending", then I read the story where the Centurion said, "I also have servants under me", and then I read the "throne scene" of the Book of Revelation. From that I began to put together a story, with meaning. Someone else might read different verses, or read them in other order, and put together a different story. That is where the Ecclesia comes in. That is where "each one has" an alternative view of The Truth, and we respectfully present them together. I think that if there is a God, and we present our stories respectfully to each other, then God is pleased. "Receive one another as God has received you in Christ Jesus."
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Old 11-01-2014, 10:12 AM   #41
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I admit that I am hypothesizing, that there may be some more overlap between the [singular] Holy Spirit and the [plural] ministering angels. Are the seven angels the Holy Spirit? No; I don't think so. I think that the Holy Spirit is the Great Angel of Revelation 10, referencing the OT. Then you have the "Protoctoi", the 7 first-created angels who stand before the throne. Then you have the 24 "elders" around the throne. Etc. John presents us with a concentric set of ministering spirits.
Please allow me to weigh in on the conversation, aron. So, let me get this straight: the seven spirits of God burning before the throne are actually seven created angels? Where have you got this idea from, brother?
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:21 AM   #42
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Please allow me to weigh in on the conversation, aron. So, let me get this straight: the seven spirits of God burning before the throne are actually seven created angels? Where have you got this idea from, brother?
Because the Holy Spirit is one, and the angels are plural. So if you have one, singular Spirit, like The Angel of the Lord in the OT, or the Great Angel in Revelation 10, that is the Holy Spirit. But if you have multiple spirits, then you have the angels. There is singular, and there is plural. The Holy Spirit is singular, not plural.

The seven angels who stand before the Lord are referenced in Revelations 8:2. So where are they in the throne scene in Revelations chapter 1? My argument is that they are the seven spirits burning before the throne.

The difficulty of the Trinity is that you have singularity, and plurality, or multiplicity. So you are simultaneously looking at one, and many. Additionally, you are looking at the Creator, God, Jehovah, on the throne, and you simultaneously are looking at a teeming, bustling creation around Him. All of whom are actually extensions of God. So where do we delineate? The Nicene Creed has 3 Creator aspects, or persons. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. My argument is that the Creator is the Father. The Son is the Firstborn of all creation. The Holy Spirit is the seven first created angels. This was a notion in circulation in the first centuries CE, by writers who had access to the oral traditions as well as the written, public documents (gospels and epistles). So the Church Father commentaries said that the seven spirits were the Protoctoi, the first-created angels. See Clement of Alexandria's commentaries, for example. So this idea isn't really mine. I just raise it because it makes more sense to me than the vague and nebulous "Holy Spirit is 1/3 of the Godhead" idea.
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:00 PM   #43
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The Holy Spirit is the seven first created angels. This was a notion in circulation in the first centuries CE, by writers who had access to the oral traditions as well as the written, public documents (gospels and epistles). So the Church Father commentaries said that the seven spirits were the Protoctoi, the first-created angels. See Clement of Alexandria's commentaries, for example. So this idea isn't really mine...
I do claim some originality, however. My inspiration came from seeing that John and the NT writers were acutely aware of their experiences as an extension of OT scriptures. So the question became, where in the OT text did you see seven flames burning before the throne? The answer was easy: in the holy of holies. Moses was told that he should build everything according to the vision on the holy mtn.

So my revelation was the idea that in Revelation 1 John was saying that Moses had seen seven spirits burning before the throne. That's why Moses had built the Menorah : to hold the seven flames.

Lee and others said that the seven flames were there in response to the degradation. But the seven flames had been burning there before the Ark (a representation of the throne) since the OT times. So my inspiration was to say that John was using this imagery to say that Moses had seen seven flames there, on the holy mtn. So how do we reconcile multiple spirits with the singular Holy Spirit? That is what I'm trying to do here.
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:03 PM   #44
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Because the Holy Spirit is one, and the angels are plural. So if you have one, singular Spirit, like The Angel of the Lord in the OT, or the Great Angel in Revelation 10, that is the Holy Spirit. But if you have multiple spirits, then you have the angels. There is singular, and there is plural. The Holy Spirit is singular, not plural.

The seven angels who stand before the Lord are referenced in Revelations 8:2. So where are they in the throne scene in Revelations chapter 1? My argument is that they are the seven spirits burning before the throne.

The difficulty of the Trinity is that you have singularity, and plurality, or multiplicity. So you are simultaneously looking at one, and many. Additionally, you are looking at the Creator, God, Jehovah, on the throne, and you simultaneously are looking at a teeming, bustling creation around Him. All of whom are actually extensions of God. So where do we delineate? The Nicene Creed has 3 Creator aspects, or persons. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. My argument is that the Creator is the Father. The Son is the Firstborn of all creation. The Holy Spirit is the seven first created angels. This was a notion in circulation in the first centuries CE, by writers who had access to the oral traditions as well as the written, public documents (gospels and epistles). So the Church Father commentaries said that the seven spirits were the Protoctoi, the first-created angels. See Clement of Alexandria's commentaries, for example. So this idea isn't really mine. I just raise it because it makes more sense to me than the vague and nebulous "Holy Spirit is 1/3 of the Godhead" idea.
I did not know about that verse in Revelation (Rev 8:2)...thank you, bro aron...

However, you state you have a major problem with and have never bought into this 'nonsense' that God is 'three-in-one', because it muddles plurality with singularity. You cannot understand it, you say. But then, in almost the same breath, you have contended that the 'singular' Holy Spirit is actually the 'plural' seven created angels. If the concept of the Triune God is nonsensical, then isn't this more so? For you have said, and I quote, "the Holy Spirit is the seven first created angels", so therefore, He is 'seven-in-one'!!! This, you claim, you are able to understand.

...looks to me like you've leapt out of the frying pan and landed right into the fire...
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:19 PM   #45
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Hey "Unregistered" - could you please take a moment to register as a regular member? Or if you are a member already please make sure you are signed in so we can all identify who is posting.

Thanks for your understanding.
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:40 PM   #46
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I did not know about that verse in Revelation (Rev 8:2)...thank you, bro aron...

However, you state you have a major problem with and have never bought into this 'nonsense' that God is 'three-in-one', because it muddles plurality with singularity. You cannot understand it, you say. But then, in almost the same breath, you have contended that the 'singular' Holy Spirit is actually the 'plural' seven created angels. If the concept of the Triune God is nonsensical, then isn't this more so? For you have said, and I quote, "the Holy Spirit is the seven first created angels", so therefore, He is 'seven-in-one'!!! This, you claim, you are able to understand.

...looks to me like you've leapt out of the frying pan and landed right into the fire...
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

Setting aside that the Native American Indians believed that the smoke carried their petitions up to the Great Spirit, forget the Spirit and angels. I can't even understand how there could be smoke in heaven. Fire in heaven? Is there ice in hell?
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:58 PM   #47
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I did not know about that verse in Revelation (Rev 8:2)...thank you, bro aron...

However, you state you have a major problem with and have never bought into this 'nonsense' that God is 'three-in-one', because it muddles plurality with singularity. You cannot understand it, you say. But then, in almost the same breath, you have contended that the 'singular' Holy Spirit is actually the 'plural' seven created angels. If the concept of the Triune God is nonsensical, then isn't this more so? For you have said, and I quote, "the Holy Spirit is the seven first created angels", so therefore, He is 'seven-in-one'!!! This, you claim, you are able to understand.

...looks to me like you've leapt out of the frying pan and landed right into the fire...
...The Heptune God...? ? ?...

...oh, oh...looks like someone strained a gnat...and...daa...da,da...daa..da,da...daa...
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Old 11-01-2014, 01:01 PM   #48
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I think the three books can be found on the web. If not I can provide all 3 books in either mobi (eReaders) or pdf, upon request.

Ha
Hey, awareness, could you arrange a link to a pdf file of the books of Enoch (at least book 1) for me?
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Old 11-01-2014, 01:02 PM   #49
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Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
I can't even understand how there could be smoke in heaven. Fire in heaven? Is there ice in hell?
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company
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Old 11-01-2014, 01:14 PM   #50
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Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company
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And the company in heaven is not amenable?
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Old 11-01-2014, 02:03 PM   #51
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And the company in heaven is not amenable?
I'm afraid there won't be many there. Maybe that's what makes it heaven. And hell will be crowded ... maybe that's what makes it hell. I can't imagine spending eternity with my ex-wife. I think I'd jump into the fire.
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:31 PM   #52
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Hey, awareness, could you arrange a link to a pdf file of the books of Enoch (at least book 1) for me?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/

or

http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2126

or if you go to the Wikipedia article they have links for pdf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:47 PM   #53
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...you have contended that the 'singular' Holy Spirit is actually the 'plural' seven created angels. If the concept of the Triune God is nonsensical, then isn't this more so? For you have said, and I quote, "the Holy Spirit is the seven first created angels", so therefore, He is 'seven-in-one'!!! This, you claim, you are able to understand.

...looks to me like you've leapt out of the frying pan and landed right into the fire...
In my defense, in the first post on this thread I stated that this is very tentative. So claiming, "I am able to understand" might not be a true statement. More like, "I have major problems with the Trinity formulation (vague and incomprehensible, and incompatible with a lot of the NT narrative) and here is a proposed solution." But I didn't say this re-formulation would wrap up all the loose ends.

Yes it is a problem. I eventually got around it by abandoning that "Holy Spirit = seven angels", and saying that rather, in Revelation 1, the Holy Spirit is on Earth. Therefore the seven spirits are seven spirits, and the HS is not part of the greeting. Jesus had said, "It is necessary for Me to go, that the Holy Spirit would come to you, and abide with you" (see John 16:7-15) When Jesus is in Heaven, interceding at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit is actually down here on Earth, acting and moving. Thus my "doppelganger" idea: the Holy Spirit is Jesus' angel. Just like Peter had an angel, so does Jesus: it's the Great Angel of Jehovah. So my theory has morphed over the last 50 posts.

Also I believe there's a dilemma in my hierarchical schema of "God the Father is greatest; Jesus the Son (LOGOS) is Number Two, and the Holy Spirit is Number Three (then follow the seven angels before the throne, the two witnesses, the Seraphim, the 24 elders, etc). My dilemma is in indicated in, e.g. Philippians 2:6 -- "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage". No easy answer for that one.

But, still, the Centurion had said, "I am under authority as well", and he likewise commanded servants under him. So if Jesus is commanding the angels here in Luke 7, where is the Holy Spirit? Plus Jesus said that He came to do the Father's will, and that just as the Father sent Him, He would send the Holy Spirit. Again, there seems to be a chain of command there, and not "co-equal persons of the Godhead". Not by might, nor by strength, but by My Spirit [singular], says Jehovah of hosts [plural]. In this tension between singularity and plurality lies the Spirit. One spirit, many manifestations. One Great Angel, the captain of the host (of angels).

Luke 9:26 "Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels." Where is the Holy Spirit here? Why do you see Son, the Father, and the holy angels? Is this possibly an alternative, and precursor, to the "trinitarian" formula? Again, I am speculating here.
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:08 AM   #54
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I do claim some originality, however. My inspiration came from seeing that John and the NT writers were acutely aware of their experiences as an extension of OT scriptures. So the question became, where in the OT text did you see seven flames burning before the throne? The answer was easy: in the holy of holies. Moses was told that he should build everything according to the vision on the holy mtn.

So my revelation was the idea that in Revelation 1 John was saying that Moses had seen seven spirits burning before the throne. That's why Moses had built the Menorah : to hold the seven flames.

Lee and others said that the seven flames were there in response to the degradation. But the seven flames had been burning there before the Ark (a representation of the throne) since the OT times. So my inspiration was to say that John was using this imagery to say that Moses had seen seven flames there, on the holy mtn. So how do we reconcile multiple spirits with the singular Holy Spirit? That is what I'm trying to do here.
..aron, you have the answer to your last question right under your very nose, and you yourself have mentioned it: the key is the Minora!

I agree the seven spirits burning before the throne of God are typified by the seven burning flames of the Minora, but the Minora itself, as one stand-alone unit, typifies the singular Spirit of God. And John faithfully keeps to this imagery in one of his very first descriptions of the throne scene.

..."And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.."
(Rev 4:5)

In other words, the seven Spirits are lamps (of fire), not independent flames suspended in space. It is important to note that John does not say that there are "seven flames burning before the throne.." So, let's go on. Now, these lamps are supported by a single lampstand. All put together, these different components represent the Holy Spirit...a.k.a. the Minora!

So you might like to know that it is not unusual that when the flames of the Minora are burning at their full strength those flames actually join together across their lamps and, in effect, become one flame, and this single flame "..of fire.." is supported by and fueled through the "..seven lamps...".

..yup, by all appearances, the Spirit of God is Heptune...hope that clears that up for ya...

p.s. please don't take my word for it and do some further research on this. Any corrections and clarifications will be welcome. You also might want to delve into the phenomena of 'Theophany'. It may help you in explaining 'the seven angels' dilemma (actually, there is none)...I think you have something there...only that your concept of 'angels' may be colored by hundreds of centuries of how angels are presented in art, mythology, folklore, theology, post-modern constructionism, the entertainment industry, the media, and what have you...There has also been criticism that in the translations from the original Hebrew into the Latin Vulgate the word for angel 'malach' did not cross over well as precisely as it had been written.
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Old 11-02-2014, 04:28 AM   #55
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..
I agree the seven spirits burning before the throne of God are typified by the seven burning flames of the Minora, but the Minora itself, as one stand-alone unit, typifies the singular Spirit of God. And John faithfully keeps to this imagery in one of his very first descriptions of the throne scene.

..."And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.."
(Rev 4:5)

In other words, the seven Spirits are lamps (of fire), not independent flames suspended in space. It is important to note that John does not say that there are "seven flames burning before the throne.." So, let's go on. Now, these lamps are supported by a single lampstand. All put together, these different components represent the Holy Spirit...a.k.a. the Minora!
Well I see seven lampstands, not one. There are seven lamps, seven flames, seven spirits, seven lampstands, and seven churches. Where the Menorah comes in is that it connects all seven lampstands. The top of the Menorah is in the throne scene in the imagery of Revelation chapter 1. The seven lampstands are connected by seven hollow tubes (for the oil ascending and descending, see John 1:51) and they have one base, the Menorah, which is on Earth. So the oil from the two olive trees descends, into the base, then rises to the seven lamps before the throne, through the vertical seven lampstands, which are hollow tubes.

Question: how do you refill a lampstand? If you pour oil from the top you will extinguish the wick. So you have a hollow tube of the same height as the lampstand, and fill the hollow tube, and the pressure of the oil going down will force the oil to rise on the other side. So our prayers on earth are a response to the interceding in heaven. The two witnesses had the power to make heaven shut, or open. When we call, "Lord Jesus" it is because our names are written in heaven. There is vertical traffic here. But the lamps never go out. Their oil is always full.

To me, John is saying here, that when Moses and the seventy elders went up on the mountain, and gazed across the sapphire pavement stones (Exod 24:10), they saw seven flames burning there before the throne. They saw a plan of a Menorah, whose top (seven lamps) reached heaven, and whose base (one base) reached Earth. And the angels of God were ascending and descending. This is why Moses built the Menorah, "according to the plan which you saw on the holy mountain." Moses didn't see a Menorah on the holy mountain: he saw seven flames. Moses built the Menorah to hold the seven flames.

Why didn't Jesus say, "You will see heaven opened, and the Holy Spirit ascending and descending" upon the Son of Man? Because it's the same thing, I believe. The angels ascending and descending is the Holy Spirit.

We are clearly in agreement in one regard: the seven lamps/flames create one light, toward the Mercy Seat (throne of God). See Exodus 25:37 “Then make its seven lamps and set them up on it so that they light the space in front of it." I see one light, fused, in front of the Ark. I see seven lamps and flames, which are the seven spirits of God. I see seven lampstands (vertical pipes), which ultimately fuse in one Menorah, the base of which is on Earth.

So the pattern is - One - seven - One. It was there all along. Lee said the seven flames were a response to the degradation of the churches. I say the seven flames were there all along. This is a major point for the apostle John, I believe. The Spirit didn't "become sevenfold". It was seven flames all along.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:03 AM   #56
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John sees seven lampstands, but he doesn't see 49 flames. He doesn't see seven Menorahs. He just sees the top of the Menorah: seven vertical, hollow, golden tubes (lampstands), each of which supports one lamp and one flame. And the flames are spirits, angels, stars, and messengers to the churches. They are all the same thing. It is simple; it is not so crowded in front of the throne as we might presume. That is why Rev. 8:2 is so important, conceptually, to me. To me that suggests that it's all the same.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:21 AM   #57
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Well I see seven lampstands, not one. There are seven lamps, seven flames, seven spirits, seven lampstands, and seven churches. Where the Menorah comes in is that it connects all seven lampstands. The top of the Menorah is in the throne scene in the imagery of Revelation chapter 1. The seven lampstands are connected by seven hollow tubes (for the oil ascending and descending, see John 1:51) and they have one base, the Menorah, which is on Earth. So the oil from the two olive trees descends, into the base, then rises to the seven lamps before the throne, through the vertical seven lampstands, which are hollow tubes.
I assumed the Menora, the actual physical object, had one lampstand (base inclusive) that supported seven lamps. I was trying to incorporate that fact into the imagery in the throne-room. But you're right, John did not actually say that he saw a lampstand in heaven, what he wrote was that he saw the seven lamps. You have connected the seven lamps in heaven with the seven lampstands on earth, the seven churches. A wider and 'higher' view. Interesting.

Please keep going. I am beginning to warm to your alternative approach, though the fact that there are seven lampstands instead of one appears to throw the monkey-wrench into the works.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:44 AM   #58
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John sees seven lampstands, but he doesn't see 49 flames. He doesn't see seven Menorahs. He just sees the top of the Menorah: seven vertical, hollow, golden tubes (lampstands), each of which supports one lamp and one flame. And the flames are spirits, angels, stars, and messengers to the churches. They are all the same thing. It is simple; it is not so crowded in front of the throne as we might presume. That is why Rev. 8:2 is so important, conceptually, to me. To me that suggests that it's all the same.
The tubes that feed into the lamps of the Menora are not called 'lampstands'; they are, according to all Jewish descriptions, termed 'branches' because they branch out from the lampstand. These are two different aspects of the same thing. The lampstand itself is made up of the base and the stem, which issue into the branches that hold the lamps. So, for your theory to work seamlessly, John needs to have described the seven churches as 'seven branches' and not 'seven lampstands'.

There are two different kinds of Menora: there is the Menora we are discussing: the Menora to do with the temple; and it is described as a 'seven-branched lampstand'. And then there is the Menora (hannukah), described as a 'nine-branched candelabrum' lit on the Jewish holiday of Hannukah.
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:40 AM   #59
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Where's Menorah mentioned?
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:28 AM   #60
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Where's Menorah mentioned?
Exodus 25. Please see posts #55 and #43. My theme here has been that even tho it's not explicitly stated in Rev. 1, there were seven flames burning there since the OT. The NT writers, esp. John, were acutely aware of the authority of scripture and thus continually turned to it for validation.
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Old 11-02-2014, 08:29 AM   #61
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Where's Menorah mentioned?
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Exodus 25. Please see posts #55 and #43. My theme here has been that even tho it's not explicitly stated in Rev. 1, there were seven flames burning there since the OT. The NT writers, esp. John, were acutely aware of the authority of scripture and thus continually turned to it for validation.
Are you making links to the OT that aren't there?

Or are they? Perhaps Mephi is right, John was writing in his study at Patmos, with his copy of the Septuagint handy, for reference, creating this book not by experiences, by out of whole cloth, from OT imagery, speaking code, to avoid provoking the Romans, explaining what he saw going on in his day. And Christians in that day understood John, and did (like every generation since) relate his crazy tome to their day.

But the word Menorah is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible ... not that I can find.
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:39 AM   #62
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Default Quick request to awareness, zeek and Dave

Quick request to awareness, zeek and Dave:

Guys,
Could you fellows put your heads together and come up with a subtitle (forum board description) - probably 25 words or less would work.

Thanks!
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:59 AM   #63
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Are you making links to the OT that aren't there?

Or are they? Perhaps Mephi is right, John was writing in his study at Patmos, with his copy of the Septuagint handy, for reference, creating this book not by experiences, by out of whole cloth, from OT imagery, speaking code, to avoid provoking the Romans, explaining what he saw going on in his day. And Christians in that day understood John, and did (like every generation since) relate his crazy tome to their day.

But the word Menorah is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible ... not that I can find.
..awareness...God forbid that I should ever denigrate the apostle John in such a mocking fashion!
As a matter of fact, I believe every word he ever wrote...
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:25 AM   #64
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Are you making links to the OT that aren't there?

...the word Menorah is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible ... not that I can find.
You are right. Menorah isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Nor is "trinity", nor for that matter "asparagus". What an idiot I've been. Please forgive me.

Let me leave it at this: Lee tried to make it seem that the seven spirits was something novel, that the Holy Spirit needed to become "sevenfold intensified" to respond to the degradation of the churches. So to Lee, something wasn't there, then "became" there.

I was simply trying to say that all John's readers would have (been expected to) understood that there were seven flames burning there, in the Holy of Holies, in front of the Ark of the Covenant, since at least Exodus chapter 25. What connection if any that you want to make is up to you.
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:31 AM   #65
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..awareness...God forbid that I should ever denigrate the apostle John in such a mocking fashion! As a matter of fact, I believe every word he ever wrote...
Same here. I study it because I believe it is a revelation which "consummates", if you will, all of John's experiences, both as a disciple of the Baptiser, as a disciple of Jesus for 3 1/2 years, and then through the resurrection and beyond.

Just because John's "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches" may be reminiscent of Jesus' "He who has an ear, let him hear", that doesn't mean John was doing some slight of hand or trickery. No, I think he meant, and believed, every word. As do I.

Do I understand it? No. But I do respect it.
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:45 AM   #66
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..awareness...God forbid that I should ever denigrate the apostle John in such a mocking fashion!
As a matter of fact, I believe every word he ever wrote...
Me too also. But we may or may not agree on what the words originally meant and applied to ; and from the looks of it, even the authorship of the book.

But that's neither here nor there. Back to aron's Holy Spirit ....
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Old 11-02-2014, 03:05 PM   #67
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..awareness...God forbid that I should ever denigrate the apostle John in such a mocking fashion!
As a matter of fact, I believe every word he ever wrote...
I can't believe you would be so naive considering your insight on many of your posts.
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Old 11-02-2014, 03:28 PM   #68
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I can't believe you would be so naive considering your insight on many of your posts.
I have been waiting for Mephibosheth to be Mephibosheth, or not to be Mephibosheth -- the name having a so far hidden meaning -- or in other words the real Mephibosheth to show up. So far we've just got peek-a-boos here and there ... But he did make a proclamation, of some sort, on this guy that calls himself John.
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:15 AM   #69
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Me too also. But we may or may not agree on what the words originally meant and applied to ; and from the looks of it, even the authorship of the book.

But that's neither here nor there. Back to aron's Holy Spirit ....
They say if you don't stand for something, you'll for anything!

Here's the "looks of it":

"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John, Who testified the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, even all that he say. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches which are in Asia; Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming, and from the seven Spirits who are before the throne, and from Jesus Christ..." (Revelation 1:1-5)

...awareness, if you still, after reading that, do not know who the author is of the book of Revelation, then honestly...I don't know either!
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:33 AM   #70
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They say if you don't stand for something, you'll for anything!

Here's the "looks of it":

"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John, Who testified the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, even all that he say. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches which are in Asia; Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming, and from the seven Spirits who are before the throne, and from Jesus Christ..." (Revelation 1:1-5)

...awareness, if you still, after reading that, do not know who the author is of the book of Revelation, then honestly...I don't know either!
Great post unregistered. And I think I get it: This guy who calls himself John doesn't matter, cuz God gave it to whoever this guy was. Right?
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Old 11-03-2014, 09:05 AM   #71
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You are right. Menorah isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Nor is "trinity", nor for that matter "asparagus". What an idiot I've been. Please forgive me.
Asparagus? I thought that was pulse!
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Old 11-05-2014, 01:58 AM   #72
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I can't believe you would be so naive considering your insight on many of your posts.
...Naive?...why, how kind of you, good sir!...

Naive = simple, artless, innocent, credulous, immature, foolishly frank, et cetera..

I am naive, Dave...exceedingly so...like a child...just like a little child...


...get a clue...
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:29 AM   #73
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Great post unregistered. And I think I get it: This guy who calls himself John doesn't matter, cuz God gave it to whoever this guy was. Right?
awareness, I concede that the epistle to the Hebrews, as to its authorship and whether or not the apostle Paul truly wrote it, has often been disputed by scholars; but as for the book of Revelation, hasn't it always been generally accepted that 'John' (the disciple whom Jesus loved) is the author? Don't scholars agree that the literary style of the 'apocalypse' is identical in many respects to his other epistles and to his gospel? Don't other historical documents and accounts contemporary to the period positively identify John 'the Revelator' as being the selfsame fisherman of the gospels, and one of the Twelve? Don't they all attest that it was indeed this same apostle -John- who was imprisoned on the isle of Patmos? Isn't it him that long tradition speaks of as having been dipped into a vat of bubbling oil and survived the ordeal? I mean, how many other historical figures of similar stature, named John, can there possibly be? Are they recorded and attested to elsewhere outside the Biblical narrative?

Perhaps you are privy to some detail that has eluded thousands of years of close and careful scrutiny? We should be very glad and grateful if you were to share these secrets with us.
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:33 AM   #74
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aron and awareness,

...you guys, thanks for the links...much appreciated...
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:10 AM   #75
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awareness, I concede that the epistle to the Hebrews, as to its authorship and whether or not the apostle Paul truly wrote it, has often been disputed by scholars; but as for the book of Revelation, hasn't it always been generally accepted that 'John' (the disciple whom Jesus loved) is the author? Don't scholars agree that the literary style of the 'apocalypse' is identical in many respects to his other epistles and to his gospel? Don't other historical documents and accounts contemporary to the period positively identify John 'the Revelator' as being the selfsame fisherman of the gospels, and one of the Twelve? Don't they all attest that it was indeed this same apostle -John- who was imprisoned on the isle of Patmos? Isn't it him that long tradition speaks of as having been dipped into a vat of bubbling oil and survived the ordeal? I mean, how many other historical figures of similar stature, named John, can there possibly be? Are they recorded and attested to elsewhere outside the Biblical narrative?

Perhaps you are privy to some detail that has eluded thousands of years of close and careful scrutiny? We should be very glad and grateful if you were to share these secrets with us.
Goodness bro Mephi, ya want me to do your homework? I've already pointed out early claims that it's a forgery, and even provided the name suspected of forging it.

Yes, tradition has it that John of Zebedee wrote it. But it is and has been disputed. And for that reason, and others, over the ages it's been in and out of the canon like a yo-yo.

Start here bro Mephi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of...ip.2C_and_date
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:33 AM   #76
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Goodness bro Mephi, ya want me to do your homework? I've already pointed out early claims that it's a forgery, and even provided the name suspected of forging it.

Yes, tradition has it that John of Zebedee wrote it. But it is and has been disputed. And for that reason, and others, over the ages it's been in and out of the canon like a yo-yo.
As far as I know, every book of the Bible and every author of the Bible has been brought under suspicion by some "scholar." I'm sure there are numerous Wikipedia articles proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that both God Himself and the Lord Jesus Christ are simply figments of some illustrious imagination. Ironically some of these selfsame folks are completely persuaded concerning the authenticity of ancient mythology. Are we at all surprised by this?
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:54 AM   #77
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As far as I know, every book of the Bible and every author of the Bible has been brought under suspicion by some "scholar." I'm sure there are numerous Wikipedia articles proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that both God Himself and the Lord Jesus Christ are simply figments of some illustrious imagination. Ironically some of these selfsame folks are completely persuaded concerning the authenticity of ancient mythology. Are we at all surprised by this?
Are we surprised the catholic scribes played with the manuscripts? No, we are not. Man botches everything he touches, even Bible manuscripts.

Example. I was talking to Dave about Our Lady of Fátima. A Virgin Mary apparition in 1917 to 3 young and uneducated girls.

Mary at that time released 3 secret messages, and the 3rd message wasn't to be release for some time. Well guess what, the 3rd message has been meddled with.

And of course it has. Cuz that catholic church hasn't ever seen a document they can't modify, even of Holy Scripture.
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:29 AM   #78
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Are we surprised the catholic scribes played with the manuscripts? No, we are not. Man botches everything he touches, even Bible manuscripts.

Example. I was talking to Dave about Our Lady of Fátima. A Virgin Mary apparition in 1917 to 3 young and uneducated girls.

Mary at that time released 3 secret messages, and the 3rd message wasn't to be release for some time. Well guess what, the 3rd message has been meddled with.

And of course it has. Cuz that catholic church hasn't ever seen a document they can't modify, even of Holy Scripture.
It doesn't stop there. Harold mentioned to me "the Holy Foreskin of Jesus" and I thought he was off his rocker. Then I found a documentary of it on National Geographic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INMSWi-ZpHU Luke 2:21
It shows that craziness has been going on throughout the development of the Christian history. Wasn't the same Roman Catholic Church preserving some of our "texts" until Luther? It doesn't give me a lot of confidence after I watched this program. Wow!
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:35 AM   #79
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Are we surprised the catholic scribes played with the manuscripts? No, we are not. Man botches everything he touches, even Bible manuscripts.

Example. I was talking to Dave about Our Lady of Fátima. A Virgin Mary apparition in 1917 to 3 young and uneducated girls.

Mary at that time released 3 secret messages, and the 3rd message wasn't to be release for some time. Well guess what, the 3rd message has been meddled with.

And of course it has. Cuz that catholic church hasn't ever seen a document they can't modify, even of Holy Scripture.
I wouldn't believe a thing about Mary appearances.

We should let her "rest in peace."
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:44 AM   #80
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Goodness bro Mephi, ya want me to do your homework? I've already pointed out early claims that it's a forgery, and even provided the name suspected of forging it.

Yes, tradition has it that John of Zebedee wrote it. But it is and has been disputed. And for that reason, and others, over the ages it's been in and out of the canon like a yo-yo.

Start here bro Mephi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of...ip.2C_and_date
Homework done!...thanks...
..well, you learn something everyday!...
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:42 PM   #81
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Homework done!...thanks...
..well, you learn something everyday!...
Hey, bro Mephi, just this morning bro Dave told me that he thought I was a hair-brain, for all the crazy things I come up with. Like I make up stuff out of whole cloth.

I guess this info about the Revelation of John is the same for you. Obviously your not the only one that thinks I'm a hair-brain ... that's prolly a large club you're in ... with most here in that club.

But glad you learned something. And hope you spend time digging into the dispute of the Revelation of John. There's lot's on it. And you seem really smart.

We all should have enough faith to face the facts, and be honest about them upon their discovery, first to ourselves, and then to all others.

And I realize that upon first blush this seems off topic on this Holy Spirit thread. But given aron has referenced the Rev. of John, is it really off topic?
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Old 11-06-2014, 08:19 AM   #82
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I wouldn't believe a thing about Mary appearances.

We should let her "rest in peace."
If she would only mind her business, and stop acting like a double spy for God; appearing and slipping secrets to the young and ignorant, and predicting doom and judgement if she's not listened to (sound familiar). Seems Mary is just another troublesome woman we've got to live with.

If she ever appeared to me I'd make a beeline to the corner of the housetop.

Pro 21:9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

Don't ya just love the Bible?
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:12 PM   #83
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I wouldn't believe a thing about Mary appearances.

We should let her "rest in peace."
They may be real such as the miracle at Fatima, but rather than being Mary, it is probably the Queen of Heaven, the wife of Baal, mother of Osiris, the same demons who have decieved many believers into Marian worship. If Satan can masquerade himself as an angel of light, then so can The angels under him practice deception.
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:07 PM   #84
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I realize that upon first blush this seems off topic on this Holy Spirit thread. But given aron has referenced the Rev. of John, is it really off topic?
No and yes. No it is not off topic because my argument hinges upon Revelation. If it were not for Revelation putting "seven spirits in front of the throne" instead of our "Holy Spirit", then you couldn't connect all the dots that I do.

You would have Hargar telling the angel, "You are the God that sees me," and just brush it off. You would have Moses talking with YHWH in the Exodus account, and in Acts, Stephen says he was talking with an angel. So what? Also in Acts, you'd have an angel telling Philip going down to the south road out of Jerusalem, then the Holy Spirit telling him to run up to the Ethiopian's chariot, and so what? You'd have the "glory of the Son and of the Father and the holy angels" in Luke 9:26 and so what? Who cares? You'd have the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man in John 1:51, and not the Holy Spirit, and you can just shrug.... anomalies, all of it. Irrelevant.

But Revelation, for me, connects all the dots. The argument here is that John is connecting the dots; I'm just seeing John connect the "angel = spirit" dots, that are actually sprinkled throughout scripture.

Consider it like this: "He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flaming fire" (Psa 104:4; Heb 1:7). Here you have angels, spirits, ministers, and flaming fire. In Revelation you have seven spirits before the throne, seven stars in Jesus' hand which are the seven angels of the seven churches, seven flames burning before the throne, seven eyes of the Lamb which are the seven spirits which run to and fro throughout the earth, and the seven angels who stand before the throne (8:2). Now, it is either awful crowded there in front of the throne, or it is a lot simpler than we've perhaps considered. Just trying to take the easy road here; simplicity is elegance, in my view. I just see all the dots connected.

But yes it's arguably off topic because if you want to dismiss the book of Revelation as rambling delusion of unknown origin, then maybe you discount Jesus rising from the dead. It is also "disputed", after all. I mean, if you don't like Revelation then why pay any attention to my argument, anyway? I don't get it. I have clearly stated my premise. To me, the Bible has Genesis to Revelation, which are the primary sources. Then, supplemental sources are the Church Fathers, pseudipigrapha, etc... If you say, "Well, that is a good argument but I don't accept source X", then really why bother? Why even care about what I am writing? I don't get that. You dismiss the dots I am connecting, then you dismiss the whole argument out of hand.

Here I am simply assuming Revelation's canonicity. As did Lee, and the people who say "It is the sevenfold intensified Holy Spirit". That is an assumed part of the discussion. If you take that away you are taking yourself out of the discussion. So, anyway, off topic... yes and no. Or no and yes, take your pick.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:55 AM   #85
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But Revelation, for me, connects all the dots. The argument here is that John is connecting the dots; I'm just seeing John connect the "angel = spirit" dots, that are actually sprinkled throughout scripture.

Consider it like this: "He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flaming fire" (Psa 104:4; Heb 1:7). Here you have angels, spirits, ministers, and flaming fire. In Revelation you have seven spirits before the throne, seven stars in Jesus' hand which are the seven angels of the seven churches, seven flames burning before the throne, seven eyes of the Lamb which are the seven spirits which run to and fro throughout the earth, and the seven angels who stand before the throne (8:2). Now, it is either awful crowded there in front of the throne, or it is a lot simpler than we've perhaps considered. Just trying to take the easy road here; simplicity is elegance, in my view. I just see all the dots connected.
Your entire premise has made much of the number 'seven' and you have intimated how only the mere mention of that number should be grounds enough to tie persons, places, and objects together where no connection existed hitherto (your 'connection of the dots' as it were). Perhaps, your argument might be helped further, and even prove more enlightening, if, instead of giving the number 'seven' such a superficial and literal treatment as you have done, you would, perhaps delve a little more deeply into its overall significance, and hence, its more widely intended application. After all, this is a book of signs!

I saw two dogs fighting today. I then went to the grocers and bought two loaves of bread. I got back home at two o'clock. I had to ring the bell two times. I was tired and so I relaxed back in my sofa and closed my...yes, you guessed it...two eyes! Is my intention to show that, somehow, because of the number 'two', all these are mysteriously connected? Are the 'two dogs', for example, really the 'two loaves of bread'? Or is my real intention one of farce and satire? You choose. Connect the dots.
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Old 11-08-2014, 08:22 AM   #86
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You choose. Connect the dots.
Wow. It seemed so obvious to me. John would assume that all his readers knew that there were seven flames of fire, burning before the throne (ark/mercy seat) since Moses built them "according to the heavenly vision". Don't you think he would expect his readers to connect his "New Testament" revelation with that of the old? As I said, the NT text is repeatedly self-referential. It coninually says, "As the scriptures said", or "That the scriptures might be fulfilled."

So when Witness Lee, and others, said that suddenly these seven spirits, burning before the throne, were something new, and hitherto unknown, it just seemed strange to me. Here is all this previous textual material, and we just ignore it, because of our concepts. Do you think John expected his readers to not connect these (pretty obvious, to me) dots? You be the judge. I mean, what is more central to Jewish identity, and culture, and historicity, than the seven lamps of fire burning in the Holy Place? You don't think people wouldn't reference this?

In all actuality, I'm not saying that seven angels are the seven spirits. But doesn't it seem coincidental, at least? Worth considering? The Church Fathers did. It was discussed, whether the seven angels standing before God in Rev 8:2 were the seven spirits in front of the throne of God in Rev 1:4. I say, it explains a lot of the spirit/angel issues found elsewhere in the text. Perhaps, gasp, that is what John is doing here.

Instead, we ostensibly have, in this one instance, the number "seven" being rolled into "sevenfold intensified", because our creed, developed centuries later, requires it. But, are the seven churches actually one church, sevenfold intensified? No? Are the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem actually one gate, twelvefold intensified? No? Then why require it, here? Why pummel the text with your ideology? If there are seven spirits, maybe, gasp, there are seven spirits!
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Old 11-08-2014, 08:58 AM   #87
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Wow. It seemed so obvious to me. John would assume that all his readers knew...
In all due fairness, the idea, that the seven spirits before the throne of Revelation 1:4 are actually the seven angels of 8:2, is in the lunatic fringe. Which is why I put it here on "Alternative vews." I mean, I wouldn't have put it out there on a "Witness Lee discussion forum", because though Lee looked at the question, he did so superficially, and he didn't depart from the standard explanation. Obviously I am departing from the standard explanation.

And secondly, maybe I have just argued myself into a corner and now I have an emotional investment in it, and what is "obvious" to me isn't so to others; do I have some unique insight, or did I go off the deep end? I see how on these forums you can take a position and more or less use it to isolate yourself, and I don't think that's from God. God shepherds us together, and doesn't separate us on islands of warring ideologies. So really, I don't care about my argument here. God loved us, God sent His Son, that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Good enough. The Good News. The idea of "The Angel of the LORD" being "The Spirit of Christ" is arguably esoteric. Not crucial.

But, as I have noted elsewhere, there are three falls, clearly referenced repeatedly in the Bible. First the Fall of Satan. Then the Fall of Man. Then the Fall of the Angels. The third fall, I argue, is intrinsically tied with the second, and when Jesus came to Earth he didn't just teach stuff. He dealt with the second and especially the third falls. All those people, rolling in the ground, screaming, with the evil spirits coming out, are quite probably tied to the third fall. And ignoring it all, because it doesn't fit our theology, leaves me with a Bible with a lot of glaring holes. And dealing with it, as I have tried to do, (for me) fills those holes.

Again, who were the servants that the Roman Centurion was referencing in Luke 7? "He sends His commands to the earth, and His word runs swiftly" (Psa 147). So I argue my position not because it is right but because it seems more satisfactory than the standard model. To me it fits the text better.
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Old 11-08-2014, 10:36 AM   #88
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In all actuality, I'm not saying that seven angels are the seven spirits. But doesn't it seem coincidental, at least? Worth considering? The Church Fathers did. It was discussed, whether the seven angels standing before God in Rev 8:2 were the seven spirits in front of the throne of God in Rev 1:4. I say, it explains a lot of the spirit/angel issues found elsewhere in the text. Perhaps, gasp, that is what John is doing here.
But don't you think it odd that where the writer (John) uses imagery in relation to the 'seven spirits of God', he immediately qualifies it. For example: 'the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne of God' which are 'the seven spirits of God'...or...'the lamb had seven horns and seven eyes' which are 'the seven spirits of God'. There is no such qualification in reference to the 'seven angels'. Instead you use the somewhat vague link that the angels are 'standing before the throne of God', so they must be the seven spirits of God because they were described as being 'before the throne', too. Which is all true...well, the lamb was also 'standing'. The 'four living creatures' were also 'standing'. Should that conclusively indicate then that they were also the 'seven angels'? ...Or perhaps it is because of the common denominator of the number 'seven' between the 'spirits of God' and the 'angels' that renders them identical? On that logic, then it could mean that the 'seven seals' might also be the 'seven angels'! And the logic goes on extrapolating itself ad absurdium. Ultimately, if indeed the seven angels are the seven spirits of God, then John should have and would have remained consistent with his previously established narrative style and made a pointed qualification as he had done.
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Instead, we ostensibly have, in this one instance, the number "seven" being rolled into "sevenfold intensified", because our creed, developed centuries later, requires it. But, are the seven churches actually one church, sevenfold intensified? No? Are the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem actually one gate, twelvefold intensified? No? Then why require it, here? Why pummel the text with your ideology? If there are seven spirits, maybe, gasp, there are seven spirits!
Or maybe the number seven is of no arithmetic significance at all!...Does Christ really have 'seven eyes' instead of two?
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:26 AM   #89
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Goodness aron, maybe you are taking mythological imagery too seriously, too literally.

And yes, Witness Lee "assumed Revelation's canonicity." But that may be why he went wrong. His premise was wrong.

And why do I care about any of this stuff? It must be a neurosis. But not as an extreme neurosis as I had in the local church. I'm getting better, I think ... since taking to scientific thought.

Ha ...

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No and yes. No it is not off topic because my argument hinges upon Revelation. If it were not for Revelation putting "seven spirits in front of the throne" instead of our "Holy Spirit", then you couldn't connect all the dots that I do.

You would have Hargar telling the angel, "You are the God that sees me," and just brush it off. You would have Moses talking with YHWH in the Exodus account, and in Acts, Stephen says he was talking with an angel. So what? Also in Acts, you'd have an angel telling Philip going down to the south road out of Jerusalem, then the Holy Spirit telling him to run up to the Ethiopian's chariot, and so what? You'd have the "glory of the Son and of the Father and the holy angels" in Luke 9:26 and so what? Who cares? You'd have the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man in John 1:51, and not the Holy Spirit, and you can just shrug.... anomalies, all of it. Irrelevant.

But Revelation, for me, connects all the dots. The argument here is that John is connecting the dots; I'm just seeing John connect the "angel = spirit" dots, that are actually sprinkled throughout scripture.

Consider it like this: "He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flaming fire" (Psa 104:4; Heb 1:7). Here you have angels, spirits, ministers, and flaming fire. In Revelation you have seven spirits before the throne, seven stars in Jesus' hand which are the seven angels of the seven churches, seven flames burning before the throne, seven eyes of the Lamb which are the seven spirits which run to and fro throughout the earth, and the seven angels who stand before the throne (8:2). Now, it is either awful crowded there in front of the throne, or it is a lot simpler than we've perhaps considered. Just trying to take the easy road here; simplicity is elegance, in my view. I just see all the dots connected.

But yes it's arguably off topic because if you want to dismiss the book of Revelation as rambling delusion of unknown origin, then maybe you discount Jesus rising from the dead. It is also "disputed", after all. I mean, if you don't like Revelation then why pay any attention to my argument, anyway? I don't get it. I have clearly stated my premise. To me, the Bible has Genesis to Revelation, which are the primary sources. Then, supplemental sources are the Church Fathers, pseudipigrapha, etc... If you say, "Well, that is a good argument but I don't accept source X", then really why bother? Why even care about what I am writing? I don't get that. You dismiss the dots I am connecting, then you dismiss the whole argument out of hand.

Here I am simply assuming Revelation's canonicity. As did Lee, and the people who say "It is the sevenfold intensified Holy Spirit". That is an assumed part of the discussion. If you take that away you are taking yourself out of the discussion. So, anyway, off topic... yes and no. Or no and yes, take your pick.
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:28 AM   #90
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[COLOR=DarkGreen]But don't you think it odd that where the writer (John) uses imagery in relation to the 'seven spirits of God', he immediately qualifies it. For example: 'the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne of God' which are 'the seven spirits of God'...or...'the lamb had seven horns and seven eyes' which are 'the seven spirits of God'. There is no such qualification in reference to the 'seven angels'. Instead you use the somewhat vague link that the angels are 'standing before the throne of God', so they must be the seven spirits of God because they were described as being 'before the throne', too. Which is all true...well, the lamb was also 'standing'. The 'four living creatures' were also 'standing'
I see your point. Well, maybe it is a little more crowded there, in front of the throne, than I had surmised. I had simply assumed that it would be pricey real-estate, so to speak. The whole thing about seven angels standing there is that it is just seven. Not sixty five or twenty two or whatever. Again, that makes the twenty four elders further out, i.e. further away. So that there would only be seven, in front of the throne, and not seven plus seven more, makes more sense to me.

John is presenting us a hierarchy in the heavens. So seven doesn't share with another seven (so I surmised). There are only seven entities. Angels, and spirits, eyes, stars, flames. All the same thing. But that is just my logic. Maybe there are seven angels, and seven flaming spirits as well. And Psalm 104:4, Hebrews 1:7 is irrelevant here. Right?

Remember that in the gospel records, John and James wanted to be at Jesus' right and left hands in the kingdom. I am carrying that over here. John, (I argue) was acutely aware of one's relative position. But my carrying over the gospel of John into the Revelation of John is simply my logic. It may not be shared by others.
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Old 11-08-2014, 12:24 PM   #91
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But don't you think it odd that where the writer (John) uses imagery in relation to the 'seven spirits of God', he immediately qualifies it. For example: 'the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne of God' which are 'the seven spirits of God'...or...'the lamb had seven horns and seven eyes' which are 'the seven spirits of God'. There is no such qualification in reference to the 'seven angels'! And the logic goes on extrapolating itself ad absurdium. Ultimately, if indeed the seven angels are the seven spirits of God, then John should have and would have remained consistent with his previously established narrative style and made a pointed qualification as he had done.
i think i'm on mr. Mephiboseth;s side on this. Definitely apostle john has a definite style of writing. when he wants to point out something he does so. the seven spirits of God are the seven flames of fire. the seven spirits of God which are the seven eyes of the Lamb. Also the seven stars which are the seven angels. And the seven candlesticks which are the seven churches. if the seven angels who blow the trumpets are the seven spirits of God, john would have DEFINTELY said the seven angles which are the seven spirits of God! But he dint. Because they're not. It was his style.
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:56 PM   #92
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i think i'm on mr. Mephiboseth;s side on this. .
I understand the popular vote is with Mr. Mephibosheth on this. Again, that's why I put it out on "alternative views". Without this format I wouldn't have bothered, to phrase Mr. Angus Kinnear, going "against the tide".

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Definitely apostle john has a definite style of writing. when he wants to point out something he does so... if the seven angels who blow the trumpets are the seven spirits of God, john would have DEFINTELY said the seven angles which are the seven spirits of God! But he dint. Because they're not. It was his style.
John's style, if you will, included copy Jesus' style, with a public, exoteric teaching, and a private, esoteric teaching. Jesus would speak in public, and say, "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear"... then privately Jesus would explain the parable to his closest disciples. Are you still with me here?

Okay, guess what John does in the Revelation, after each epistle to the seven Asian churches? He writes, "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches". Sound familiar? (Which Spirit, evidently was an angel, at least if you look at the beginning of each epistle) ["To the angel of the church in Sardis..."]) So there is a mirror here, of the exoteric pronouncement, and esoteric to follow. But obviously there is no "code book" where we have the esoteric explanation of Revelation. Did John, orally, explain everything to his disciples? Some Fathers said yes, but we don't know.

Anyway, if you don't have an "ear to hear" what I have an ear to hear, that is okay. Neither is right or wrong here. It is a picture, a parable, and we have our subjective responses. I have mine and you have yours. Style is a subjective assessment. I have my assessment and I've shared it.
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:04 PM   #93
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Goodness aron, maybe you are taking mythological imagery too seriously, too literally....
I daresay I'm in good company. Guilty as charged. The apostle John is of special interest to me, because he was there with John the Baptist before Jesus showed up (see the narrative in Chap 1 of the 4th gospel), he was one of the closest "inner 3" of the 12 disciples, then he saw Paul's ministry come and go. In other words, of the witnesses, he was the proverbial first and last. So I think he's worth paying special attention to. You may disagree with him, fine. In some cases I do. But I don't ignore him. Yes, I take him seriously. Many readers have.

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And yes, Witness Lee "assumed Revelation's canonicity." But that may be why he went wrong. His premise was wrong. ...
Well, if you want to start lopping off books that bother you, go right ahead. I would rather wrestle with them. That is my nature. Like Jacob with the angel, struggling is my nature. I like ancient texts, especially the canonical ones, and don't dismiss them so quickly.
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:28 PM   #94
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I think i'm on mr. Mephiboseth's side on this.
Sir, you don't get to vote on this cause you are not registered. We have voter registration laws on this forum.
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:02 PM   #95
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Well, if you want to start lopping off books that bother you, go right ahead. I would rather wrestle with them. That is my nature. Like Jacob with the angel,
Yer gonna walk away with a limp ....
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:13 PM   #96
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Yes, thus the need to be "born again". Jesus said, "You are gods, but you will die like men". This word was spoken to the counsel of the bene elohim, the sons of god. So yes, the fallen angels. Exactly.

Remember the prodigal son? He was alive. Then he died. Then he was born again.

"My son was dead, and is alive again." Luke 15:24 How could the son be dead, if he wasn't first alive? Doesn't make sense, to me.
Wanted to move this over from the "Exercise your spirit" thread. Cuz it really belongs here, more properly.

I think that the Bible presents us with three falls. The fall of Satan, the fall of man, and the fall of the angels. We only deal with the second one, typically. We write off Satan and ignore the angels.

You know, if the dragon's tail pulled one third of the stars out of the sky that is pretty big, conceptually. We might want to incorporate that into our narrative. Give it a little more oomph.

The son who is "dead, then alive again" in Luke 15 presupposes a life before being dead; a life before the fall. Or so I think. Anyone else?

Or put it another way: why do the angels in heaven rejoice so, when a sinner confesses? And, why did Jesus lay his life down for His friends? Maybe because they were His friends, and He loved them, and came down to Earth to find them and rescue them. You know, bring them back to the Father's house. He said, "Where I am going you know the way. You know the way home". Maybe we do, after all. Maybe we do.
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:51 PM   #97
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Wanted to move this over from the "Exercise your spirit" thread. Cuz it really belongs here, more properly.

I think that the Bible presents us with three falls. The fall of Satan, the fall of man, and the fall of the angels. We only deal with the second one, typically. We write off Satan and ignore the angels.

You know, if the dragon's tail pulled one third of the stars out of the sky that is pretty big, conceptually. We might want to incorporate that into our narrative. Give it a little more oomph.

The son who is "dead, then alive again" in Luke 15 presupposes a life before being dead; a life before the fall. Or so I think. Anyone else?

Or put it another way: why do the angels in heaven rejoice so, when a sinner confesses? And, why did Jesus lay his life down for His friends? Maybe because they were His friends, and He loved them, and came down to Earth to find them and rescue them. You know, bring them back to the Father's house. He said, "Where I am going you know the way. You know the way home". Maybe we do, after all. Maybe we do.
I'm not advocating this doctrine but there are some bible teachers out there like Zen Garcia who speculate that after the angelic rebellion led by Satan, God gave them another chance to repent but they would have to be incarnated as men and have their memories wiped. The ones that rejected this offer are still with Satan. The reason God allows men to repent but not Angels (2 Peter 2:4) is because they have limited knowledge and spiritual sight being stuck in the physical plane of existence(1 Cor 13:12) however the Angels who were in God's presence knowingly rebelled with perfect knwoledge hence they are held to a higher standard of judgement.

If we were all previously Angels, It would explain the verses in the bible that seemingly imply God knew us and had a history with us even before we were born. It would also explain how angels and women could procreate to produce nephilim giants of Genesis 6/Enoch. I found it interesting when I came across this but I didn't think it was something God wanted me to delve into even if it was true. Yet, Jesus said that when we die we will "become like angels" hmm..
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:39 PM   #98
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I didn't think it was something God wanted me to delve into even if it was true. Yet, Jesus said that when we die we will "become like angels" hmm..
Everyone has their journey, and their meta-narrative to develop. Each of us is unique. God seems to have designed us this way. I tried WL's "God's New Testament Economy" once, but eventually I moved on, and have never regretted it.

I understand the reticence. I think the esoteric stuff is only to be taken in small doses, if at all. I only threw it out here, on this "alternative" sub-forum, to see how it looks. On the face of it, judging by most reactions, it doesn't go far (and I admit to not being a compelling presenter of ideas).

But the fall of the angels is worth considering for a Christian, even at a superficial level. Jude and 2 Peter mention this, because I think they wanted to warn the believers. Don't think you are now "in God" and you are safe, and beyond peril. You are never beyond making mistakes. Jude and 2 Peter are saying, Look at the angels. Look at what happened to them.

Beyond that it's up to the individual. Most ignore it, which is fine. I just happen to think it's a compelling narrative, is all. It's like LOTR: it's epic. "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." Suddenly I was like, Wow, now I get it. It was an amazing moment. I got caught by a meta-narrative.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:54 PM   #99
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You know, if the dragon's tail pulled one third of the stars out of the sky that is pretty big, conceptually. We might want to incorporate that into our narrative. Give it a little more oomph.
Surely bro aron you have enough scientific education to know how goofy it is to claim some dragon is going to pull one third of the stars. You're just playing with all this, like children play with toys.
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:39 AM   #100
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You know, if the dragon's tail pulled one third of the stars out of the sky that is pretty big, conceptually. We might want to incorporate that into our narrative. Give it a little more oomph.

The son who is "dead, then alive again" in Luke 15 presupposes a life before being dead; a life before the fall. Or so I think. Anyone else?

Or put it another way: why do the angels in heaven rejoice so, when a sinner confesses? And, why did Jesus lay his life down for His friends? Maybe because they were His friends, and He loved them, and came down to Earth to find them and rescue them. You know, bring them back to the Father's house. He said, "Where I am going you know the way. You know the way home". Maybe we do, after all. Maybe we do.
The first two chapters of the epistle to the Hebrews do not appear to support this new hypothesis of yours, bro aron. On the contrary, they seem to warn -quite robustly- against it!!

Perhaps, you might like to read those chapters again just a little bit more closely. You might also like to 'review' Heb 1:7 which you have quoted on numerous occasions. When taken in its proper context, you may find that far from lending credence to your earlier views, the verse, in fact, does quite the opposite!
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:41 AM   #101
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Hey, bro Mephi, just this morning bro Dave told me that he thought I was a hair-brain, for all the crazy things I come up with. Like I make up stuff out of whole cloth.

I guess this info about the Revelation of John is the same for you. Obviously your not the only one that thinks I'm a hair-brain ... that's prolly a large club you're in ... with most here in that club.
I shouldn't worry about that, awareness, not to worry at all...you are in excellent company...

In days gone by, the 'court jesters' of old, were also considered to be a little 'hair-brained' and 'crazy'. But everybody knew that though their apparent function was to entertain the palace court with singing, playing the flute or the fiddle or what have you, dancing and prancing around, acrobatics, telling jokes, narrating stories, juggling, and performing magic tricks, etc (...all in a comical fashion), their true role was to criticize and bring to light hidden things, and dispense wisdom and advice on political and other sensitive matters...all delivered in jocular fashion and accompanied by a hilarious comedic routine!

As such they often targeted influential figures of the court and other persons of high social standing marking them out for especial ridicule and public mockery. The monarch him/herself was not spared the sharp edge of the scathing tongue of the court jester; and thus it was not unusual for him to pick on a variety of the king's failings, either in his personal life or in respect of his style of the administration of his kingdom, and hang them out to dry while poking savage fun at them; all without subjecting the king to too much awkward embarrassment or unacceptable loss of face.

The same ill-advised words falling from the lips of another man would often be quickly followed by his being flung into a filthy dungeon corner; or worse: a short, quick, six-foot drop from the gallows. And in this regard, the court jester enjoyed immunity and impunity that no person considered to be rational and intelligent could possibly hope to be afforded; for the ramblings of the town idiot could always be laughed off and dismissed with the wave of the hand as the jibber-jabber of a fool and a buffoon...(that is, in public). But in private, his words took on the force of a fount of wisdom and were often considered to be 'divinely inspired'...

And in the same vein, I wonder, that though Dave may call you a dunderhead in the open; nevertheless, in secret, does he not also hesitate and harbor doubts as to whether or not beneath that fine, bright-red flannel coxcomb (so to speak) that you sport on the crown of your head, there does not, in fact, lie a person of fine mettle, sturdy character, and unsearchable depths and ways past finding out!
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Old 11-09-2014, 07:32 AM   #102
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The first two chapters of the epistle to the Hebrews do not appear to support this new hypothesis of yours, bro aron. On the contrary, they seem to warn -quite robustly- against it!!

Perhaps, you might like to read those chapters again just a little bit more closely. You might also like to 'review' Heb 1:7 which you have quoted on numerous occasions. When taken in its proper context, you may find that far from lending credence to your earlier views, the verse, in fact, does quite the opposite!
Excellent points. Thank you.

You know, this is in some degree "the glory of the ecclesia". We can have a vision, a prophecy, a word, and then someone in the audience raises their hand and said, "Um, Fred, maybe you want to go back and read Galatians chapter two again." In other words, someone can 'restrain the madness of the prophet'; you have balance, and safety. "In the counsel of others is safety"; Proverbs says this three times. WN's "normal church life" notion effectively jettisoned this mechanism, and because WL never had any restraint, his ministry was effectively ruined. And thus the need for internet forums like Local Church Discussions.

I have occasionally considered the first two chapters of Hebrews but I need to revisit them again. Also, I remember where Paul wrote, "Do you not know that you will judge angels?" (1 Cor 6:3). I doubt that I am going to judge the seven angels that stand before the throne (Rev 8:2), but if I just use my 'choice' verses and ignore the troublesome or unhelpful ones, what kind of idea am I presenting? A sickbed theory, one incapable of being challenged.

So thanks for the tip. Hebrews 1 & 2 is a balancing word, for sure.
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Old 11-09-2014, 10:23 AM   #103
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I shouldn't worry about that, awareness, not to worry at all...you are in excellent company...

In days gone by, the 'court jesters' of old, were also considered to be a little 'hair-brained' and 'crazy'. But everybody knew that though their apparent function was to entertain the palace court with singing, playing the flute or the fiddle or what have you, dancing and prancing around, acrobatics, telling jokes, narrating stories, juggling, and performing magic tricks, etc (...all in a comical fashion), their true role was to criticize and bring to light hidden things, and dispense wisdom and advice on political and other sensitive matters...all delivered in jocular fashion and accompanied by a hilarious comedic routine!

As such they often targeted influential figures of the court and other persons of high social standing marking them out for especial ridicule and public mockery. The monarch him/herself was not spared the sharp edge of the scathing tongue of the court jester; and thus it was not unusual for him to pick on a variety of the king's failings, either in his personal life or in respect of his style of the administration of his kingdom, and hang them out to dry while poking savage fun at them; all without subjecting the king to too much awkward embarrassment or unacceptable loss of face.

The same ill-advised words falling from the lips of another man would often be quickly followed by his being flung into a filthy dungeon corner; or worse: a short, quick, six-foot drop from the gallows. And in this regard, the court jester enjoyed immunity and impunity that no person considered to be rational and intelligent could possibly hope to be afforded; for the ramblings of the town idiot could always be laughed off and dismissed with the wave of the hand as the jibber-jabber of a fool and a buffoon...(that is, in public). But in private, his words took on the force of a fount of wisdom and were often considered to be 'divinely inspired'...

And in the same vein, I wonder, that though Dave may call you a dunderhead in the open; nevertheless, in secret, does he not also hesitate and harbor doubts as to whether or not beneath that fine, bright-red flannel coxcomb (so to speak) that you sport on the crown of your head, there does not, in fact, lie a person of fine mettle, sturdy character, and unsearchable depths and ways past finding out!
Interesting response Mephi. Just call me the court jester of LCD. UntoHim might agree, with a twisted smile.
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Old 11-10-2014, 01:13 AM   #104
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Excellent points. Thank you.

You know, this is in some degree "the glory of the ecclesia". We can have a vision, a prophecy, a word, and then someone in the audience raises their hand and said, "Um, Fred, maybe you want to go back and read Galatians chapter two again." In other words, someone can 'restrain the madness of the prophet'; you have balance, and safety. "In the counsel of others is safety"; Proverbs says this three times. WN's "normal church life" notion effectively jettisoned this mechanism, and because WL never had any restraint, his ministry was effectively ruined. And thus the need for internet forums like Local Church Discussions.

I have occasionally considered the first two chapters of Hebrews but I need to revisit them again. Also, I remember where Paul wrote, "Do you not know that you will judge angels?" (1 Cor 6:3). I doubt that I am going to judge the seven angels that stand before the throne (Rev 8:2), but if I just use my 'choice' verses and ignore the troublesome or unhelpful ones, what kind of idea am I presenting? A sickbed theory, one incapable of being challenged.

So thanks for the tip. Hebrews 1 & 2 is a balancing word, for sure.
You're most welcome, aron...and I might add that I am pleased to have played the part of the 'donkey' to such Oscar-winning effect...

That said, however, there still remains an 'elephant-in-the-room' on this thread -and he is at large- and I am resolved to hunt him down and relieve him of his tusks!
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Old 11-10-2014, 01:24 AM   #105
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Interesting response Mephi. Just call me the court jester of LCD. UntoHim might agree, with a twisted smile.
...wait a minute, awareness...aren't you forgetting the part about the 'court jester' being a person of 'fine mettle, sturdy character, unsearchable depths, and ways past finding out', and whose utterances are 'divinely inspired'?

Come on, now... forgotten already?

Surely, thou jest?


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Old 11-10-2014, 07:14 AM   #106
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...there still remains an 'elephant-in-the-room' on this thread...
I think so. Irrespective of my inability to clearly articulate it, there still is an unresolved issue(s).

I happily confirm myself as a card-carrying "orthodox" christian, who acknowledges the creedal "trinity" formulation. But I'm old enough and settled in my faith to say that I've never understood it. The Holy Spirit is 1/3 of the Trinity? Huh? And there are a lot of "loose ends" conceptually in the text.

OBW says, "So what?" What difference do all these stories make, even if we make plausible cases for them? Good question. I believe that a powerful story will capture the imagination and bend the behavior. When you begin to look at the world differently you begin to respond differently. A good narrative has that drawing power - it captures your consciousness and alters your behavior. And personality is nothing but behavior, repeated.

The "Star Wars" fans gather every year, dressed as Wookies and Storm Troopers, not because it is real, but because they like the story. Maybe the other 364 days of the year they are computer programmers and police officers, but at least one day of the year they change their behavior, because they like the story. So don't discount the power of the human imagination. Like I said, I loved LOTR when I was young, not because Middle Earth was real, but because it could be real. So it caught my attention.

________________________________

Okay, back to elephant hunting.
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Old 11-10-2014, 09:24 AM   #107
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OBW says, "So what?" What difference do all these stories make, even if we make plausible cases for them? Good question. I believe that a powerful story will capture the imagination and bend the behavior. When you begin to look at the world differently you begin to respond differently. A good narrative has that drawing power - it captures your consciousness and alters your behavior. And personality is nothing but behavior, repeated.
Though I did not quote the portion, I agree that stories are often very important. They often show us something about man, the truth, etc., that we don't think about in the particular way. And I still like the LOTR stories. There is a lot to consider there.

But when I said "so what?" (when ever it was — I have lost track of this thread several times) I was mostly suggesting that certain things are, or should be, of less importance to us than others.

When I read the Bible, I see facts and I see intent, commands, etc. To a great degree, the things about what we package together into this teaching of "trinity" is mostly about the facts. God is. The Father is and does. The Son is and does. The Spirit is and does. Figuring them out and systematizing it into the best doctrinal statement does not change who they actually are. And since we only know what we can read in the scripture, then putting more definitions around it, then telling some stories that are not from the Bible but are supplied to support extra-biblical theory, the only conclusion that I can reach is that we are trying to force something into the reading of scripture that is not there.

My "so what" is more like "what makes caring important?" I have agreed with some here that God as one is every bit as much a person as the three are individually. But I am less certain about that now. I could still be wrong because God is not within our sphere of time and space. At some level, we may be more like that galaxy on Orion's belt that was attached to a dog's collar (Men in Black). But when Jesus prays that we would be one as he and the Father are one, the absolute unity of person that One God = one Person implies is somewhat undermined.

But the point is not to figure out how the Father and the Son are one, but to come to live in the unity that Jesus prayed about. That we would be one displaying the truth of God. Revealing to the world that more than a good man is behind our living.

There is no "so what" in that.

But if we are looking for a story, why is it? To support a theory that is already beyond what the scripture actually tells us? To demonstrate what the scripture actually tells us?

Stories like LOTR, or Star Wars provide some insight into man's thinking about things. Truth, justice, human nature, and so on. But everything that the writers portray is not necessarily true. Just because we find a story that sort of fits does not mean that its tendency to compel us in a direction is true. Maybe partly true. But not necessarily all, if any.

I read something yesterday where they used a story that may ahve come from one of the Gnostic gospels. It was credited to another book and it may be that the particulars were a rephrased version. I think I have heard it before and recall it being from on of those gospels, thought I will not say it definitely is.

The story was of Jesus walking along with the disciples and asking them all to carry a rock. Peter, picks up a small one. Then at lunch, Jesus blesses the rocks and they turn in to bread. Peter is finished in one bite. So when Jesus asks them to pick up another, he grabs the biggest one he thinks he can carry. Later Jesus tells them all to throw them in the water. Peter is furious and confused. Jesus asks "Who were you carrying the rock for?"

Cute story. And it can reasonably be a backdrop for certain truth that we can actually find in the Bible. But once you have the story, what else can you glean from it? The apparent arbitrariness of God? A need to be searching for instructions at all times? An expectation that everything is designed and with purpose rather than just life with God working in us through it? What do we get from a compelling story? Maybe one step closer to swallowing deputy authority.

That is why I ask "so what?" What do we actually gain from being right? How does it stack up against scripture? If it is neither supported nor denied, it is "so what?" It could be true, but it wasn't important enough to make a comment on it.

And that last sentence is consistent with my general belief that the scripture is a book that is telling us things straight out. Not in code. The only reason that people don't see what it says is not because the words cannot be understood, but because their eyes have not been opened to see that the claims made are true. It is not a mystery. It is just not believed as true. They do not accept because they do not believe in the one behind the words.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:04 PM   #108
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When I read the Bible, I see facts and I see intent, commands, etc. To a great degree, the things about what we package together into this teaching of "trinity" is mostly about the facts. God is. The Father is and does. The Son is and does. The Spirit is and does. Figuring them out and systematizing it into the best doctrinal statement does not change who they actually are. And since we only know what we can read in the scripture, then putting more definitions around it, then telling some stories that are not from the Bible but are supplied to support extra-biblical theory, the only conclusion that I can reach is that we are trying to force something into the reading of scripture that is not there...
The Spirit is and does... well that is what I am after here. The Holy Spirit is what and does what? Is the Spirit the Angel of the Lord, and how does this relate to the holy angels of God? Because they are also spirits. They also are, and do.

Look in Revelation 22: in verse 7 the Lord Jesus says, "Behold I come quickly", then in verse 8 and 9 it is the messenger angel speaking. Then in verse 13 it is "Behold I come quickly" (Jesus) again, and verse 14 is "I am the Alpha and Omega" again. So the speaking goes from Jesus to the messenger back to God. This happens in the scriptures again and again. First God, then an angel, with no obvious transition. Or vice versa: the person calls the angel "God". And they are all spirits. God is Spirit, and angels are spirits. There is the Holy Spirit and the holy angels of God.

How does this matter? If we understand better (assuming our hearts are pure, of course) we might cooperate better. In Luke chapter 7, the Roman Centurion saved Jesus a trip: "You just say the word". It seems like that statement saved Jesus a few hours of walking. Because later they asked what time the servant was healed and it was the same time Jesus spoke. So obviously He wasn't 100 yards away. He was at quite some distance. The Centurion's understanding of the divine dynamic apparently increased its functional efficiency dramatically. And the Centurion, it seems, wasn't talking about the Holy Spirit ("I also have servants under me").

Maybe if we understood more we might be more effective in our ministry. It's one thing to inherit your father's car. It's another thing entirely to know how to drive it.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:38 PM   #109
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The Spirit is and does... well that is what I am after here. The Holy Spirit is what and does what? Is the Spirit the Angel of the Lord, and how does this relate to the holy angels of God? Because they are also spirits. They also are, and do.

Look in Revelation 22: in verse 7 the Lord Jesus says, "Behold I come quickly", then in verse 8 and 9 it is the messenger angel speaking. Then in verse 13 it is "Behold I come quickly" (Jesus) again, and verse 14 is "I am the Alpha and Omega" again. So the speaking goes from Jesus to the messenger back to God. This happens in the scriptures again and again. First God, then an angel, with no obvious transition. Or vice versa: the person calls the angel "God". And they are all spirits. God is Spirit, and angels are spirits. There is the Holy Spirit and the holy angels of God.

How does this matter? If we understand better (assuming our hearts are pure, of course) we might cooperate better. In Luke chapter 7, the Roman Centurion saved Jesus a trip: "You just say the word". It seems like that statement saved Jesus a few hours of walking. Because later they asked what time the servant was healed and it was the same time Jesus spoke. So obviously He wasn't 100 yards away. He was at quite some distance. The Centurion's understanding of the divine dynamic apparently increased its functional efficiency dramatically. And the Centurion, it seems, wasn't talking about the Holy Spirit ("I also have servants under me").

Maybe if we understood more we might be more effective in our ministry. It's one thing to inherit your father's car. It's another thing entirely to know how to drive it.
So you're just trying to figure out the mechanics of God? Yer a God mechanic.
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Old 11-10-2014, 07:05 PM   #110
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The Spirit is and does... well that is what I am after here. The Holy Spirit is what and does what? Is the Spirit the Angel of the Lord, and how does this relate to the holy angels of God? Because they are also spirits. They also are, and do.

. . . .

In Luke chapter 7, the Roman Centurion saved Jesus a trip: "You just say the word". . . .
Why are we concerned with why and how the Spirit does what he does? Or the Son? Or the Father? Do we really think that understanding it makes it better? Seems that if we do what we have been told to do, we will "experience" what we are designed to experience of God. How God does it does not change the requirement on us. Neither does which of the Godhead (if specifically stated).

My point is not that there is nothing to be known, or at least presumed or postulated, about which does what or how it is done. But I don't think that is what it is about. It is not about how. It is about God. And it is about man. And the requirements on man are not to understand the Trinity. Neither is it to have great worship services, or to "get into our spirit."

It is to represent God on the earth. To bear his image. Bearing it back to him or representing him back to himself is pointless.

Where does the real spiritual warfare occur? At church? In our small groups? In our private time with God? I suggest it is "not really any of the above." Instead, it is everyday as we live our lives in front of the world. As we bear the image of God in a way that it could be called "salt and light." That there is something that must be explained away to arrive at the conclusion that it is just human frailty needing something bigger than himself — even if just in his own mind.

I see the people. The Christians. They are living their lives often the best they can. But when they get together for that pow-wow at church, it is more about how God benefits them than who God is. Yes we need to be in awe of the hallowed one who "art in heaven." And we need to repent daily and confess our shortcomings. And forgive others. Pray for our "daily bread" (even though Lee said that was a poor pathetic prayer). Pray for our walk in the world, that we would not fall to temptation. And for the kingdom to come.

And in that view, I see digging into the Spirit in this way to be a distraction from what we are called to.

And a story about inheriting a car but not knowing how to drive it does not make figuring this out similar.

And that is my two cents. With interest.

I will admit, as I already have, that this is a "view," or a lens. We all use a lens. And surely there is a way to read the Bible, so there is a lens for it. Is mine right? Maybe at times. And not at others. But it is what it is.

You don't need to convince me. I'll jus say to carry on.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:05 AM   #111
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I think so. Irrespective of my inability to clearly articulate it, there still is an unresolved issue(s).

I happily confirm myself as a card-carrying "orthodox" christian, who acknowledges the creedal "trinity" formulation. But I'm old enough and settled in my faith to say that I've never understood it. The Holy Spirit is 1/3 of the Trinity? Huh? And there are a lot of "loose ends" conceptually in the text.
...Bingo! ...

And now, as I unsling, and cock, and take careful aim with my trusty old, African hunting-rifle, aron, allow me to shoot you a question (don't worry, it'll just graze...)

Admittedly, you have a problem with the Holy Spirit being one-third of the Trinity. In other words, as I understand it, you are challenged by the whole notion of God being 'Triune', that is, three-in-one...

If we dismiss, therefore, the idea that the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead and relegate him to the status of an angel (or seven angels-in-one), to that of a mere messenger, if you will; you are now left with the Lord Jesus Christ being 1/2 of the Godhead. Now, how is that any less mystifying than the Spirit being a 1/3 of the Godhead? To me, it seems like just as much of a conundrum: because any arguments in favor of or against the Spirit are exactly as confounding as those that may arise with respect to the Son.

It remains, therefore, that if we cannot accept that the Holy Spirit is God, then we cannot also accept that Jesus Christ is God. Unless, of course, the concept of the 'Diune God' (or two-in-one) is something that makes much more sense to you, somehow, than a God who is three-in-one! And so alas, we find ourselves in the unenviable position of denying the very deity of, not only the Holy Ghost, but of Jesus Christ Himself; which is the very cut and thrust of the Islamic philosophy and the central emphasis of the Koranic scriptures! ...(cf 2 Tim 1:7 & 2 Tim 3:5)...see, where we've ended up?...

The problematic phraseology aside, which I do not support -because it is really mathematically impossible to break down things of eternal dimensions and proportions into halves and quarters, and other such fractions (Infinity divided by three, or by four, or by seventy-six, or by a hundred million, is still Infinity!)- the crux of the matter is that God is Spirit (John 4:24) and the Spirit is the Son (which I will later show you from verses you yourself quoted and misinterpreted from Revelation) and therefore, the Son is God. He is not a 1/3 of God anymore than you can have a 1/3 of Infinity (which is impossible according to our narrow and limited four-dimensional view and concept of everything) He just is God, as the Spirit, just is God.

To put it in kindergarten-picture terms: to frame 'words' you need your 'breath' i.e. you cannot speak without your breath; the Son is the Word, the Spirit is the Breath. The Breath is required to frame the Word. Both are the Same and Both are Eternal. John has used an ordinary fact crucial to everyday life as a metaphor to convey to us some idea of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. He couldn't have been more clear. Anything less than this is and you have 'Allah'.

...So, can you really have your cake and eat it too?...

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Old 11-13-2014, 06:18 AM   #112
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If we dismiss, therefore, the idea that the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead and relegate him to the status of an angel (or seven angels-in-one), to that of a mere messenger, if you will; you are now left with the Lord Jesus Christ being 1/2 of the Godhead. Now, how is that any less mystifying than the Spirit being a 1/3 of the Godhead? To me, it seems like just as much of a conundrum: because any arguments in favor of or against the Spirit are exactly as confounding as those that may arise with respect to the Son.
I don't think that Awareness has 'dismissed' the Holy Spirit to the role of a 'mere messenger', as you've said. He has said that the Holy Spirit is the seven spirits of God who are the seven first-created angles in the universe. These seven first-created angles are very special to God and are not only mere messengers. Awareness has even proved it in the bible when the apostle john said that he wrote to the seven angles of the seven churches and in each case after the message to each church, there was an exhortation that whoever had an ear to hear what the Spirit (i.e. one of the first-created angles) was saying to the churches should hear. It shows the angle is the same as the Spirit. This, in my opinion, proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the Spirit is the seven angles of God who stood before the throne. Moreover, Awareness has also proved this out of Rev 22: 7-9. Thanks Awareness.
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:53 AM   #113
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I'm sorry guys, I meant Aron, noty Awareness.
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Old 11-14-2014, 08:17 AM   #114
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I'm sorry guys, I meant Aron, noty Awareness.
I'm glad that my ideas made some sense to somebody. But I'll take OBW's advice and drop it.
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:00 AM   #115
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I'm sorry guys, I meant Aron, noty Awareness.
Shewwwwwwwwwww!!! For a second there I thought I woke up and believed the book of Revelation belongs in the canon.

In truth I have modified my position on the book of Revelation. In reading how early Christians interpreted the book, shortly after it was written, I found the book was first taken to mean all about the Roman Empire, and God's shortly to come Kingdom.

But it didn't take long before the book became about other Christians, and early "stray" movements. Like the revival around 60 years after Rev. was written of Montanus. Montanus' charismatic movement was inspired by John's Revelation, caught on quickly, and swept thruout the Empire.

"Everywhere Montanus traveled with the two women prophets who initiated the revival with him, Priscilla and Maximilla , they aroused enthusiastic supporters— and hostile opponents. Those who accused the “new prophets” of being inspired by Satan also attacked John’s now famous— or infamous— Book of Revelation, saying that what it “revealed” was nothing but the mad ravings of a heretic."
- Pagels, Elaine (2012-03-06). Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, and Politics in the Book of Revelation (p. 104). Penguin Group US. Kindle Edition.


So now I think we need the book of Revelation. So we can beat up and condemn other Christians ... like: I'm/we're Overcomers, and you/they aren't.

Ha ....
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:37 PM   #116
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Let me revisit this from another angle: Let's ignore as nonessential whether and how angels are spirits, and of what kind, or whether there are seven spirits or one Holy Spirit sevenfold intensified, burning in front of the throne in John's Revelation.

But consider this from John's perspective: there is clearly differentiation. There is the One who was and is and who's coming, who is on the throne. There are seven spirits in front of the throne. There is the LOGOS at the right hand of God. How can you say that the Father is the Son, who is the Spirit, sevenfold or otherwise? What do you see in this scene that supports such notions? Only your doctrine, is what, not the imagery of the scene itself. On the contrary, John's vision in Revelation 1 doesn't support Lee's doctrine; rather Lee's doctrine is imposed on John's vision, and doesn't fit very well.

Secondly, irrespective of details, we see One on the throne, we see the LOGOS beside the throne, we see seven spirits before the throne, and we see 24 elders around the throne. Look at the placement, the clearly differentiated spatial arrangement here: on the throne, beside the throne, in front of the throne, and around the throne. Can't we see the difference? There is order here, and there's differentiation. It is not some bland, homogenized mass of undifferentiated "God".

But - and here is my point - in this differentiation there is absolute, impenetrable oneness. You don't see any of the 24 elders pining away for one of the seven slots in front of the throne. You don't see seven spirits, or angels for that matter, arguing with each other over who's in the middle and who's in the outer position. Each is absolutely where he is supposed to be. Each is in absolute coordination, kinship harmony, and fellowship. No one's demanding to impose some different structure on the scene. God has already done this. There is multiplicity, plurality, and differentiation. But it is all "one".

So -- every time some disgusted Christian leaves "degraded Christianity" and starts some new, supposedly purified "restorationist" or "recovery" movement, how can we say it's God's will? "The age was dark, and then God raised up Watchman Nee", etc, etc.... I don't care how logical it seems to you. I don't care how repugnant, "devilish" and so forth fallen Christianity seems; or how attractive your notion seems by contrast. Who are you to impose your idea of order on God?

Paul said this in 1 Cor 7: "Wherever you are when God calls you, remain. If God called you as a slave, then be a slave." In God's choice there is no slave nor free, no male or female, no Gentile or Jew, no Baptist or Methodist. It doesn't matter. What you are is what you are. Where God calls you, remain, until and unless God changes it. Don't let the devil trick you into pining for a better, "restored" or "recovered" situation. We on the other hand, can control our response: inner peace and joy. We're on the glassy sea, already on "proper ground".
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Old 11-21-2014, 05:32 AM   #117
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But consider this from John's perspective: there is clearly differentiation. There is the One who was and is and who's coming, who is on the throne. There are seven spirits in front of the throne. There is the LOGOS at the right hand of God. How can you say that the Father is the Son, who is the Spirit, sevenfold or otherwise? What do you see in this scene that supports such notions? Only your doctrine, is what, not the imagery of the scene itself. On the contrary, John's vision in Revelation 1 doesn't support Lee's doctrine; rather Lee's doctrine is imposed on John's vision, and doesn't fit very well.

Secondly, irrespective of details, we see One on the throne, we see the LOGOS beside the throne, we see seven spirits before the throne, and we see 24 elders around the throne. Look at the placement, the clearly differentiated spatial arrangement here: on the throne, beside the throne, in front of the throne, and around the throne. Can't we see the difference? There is order here, and there's differentiation. It is not some bland, homogenized mass of undifferentiated "God".
Dude, what about the four living creatures? where do htey fit in your picture of hierarcy? are they equal with the lamb because they are in 'the midst' of the throne, just like He is (NOT 'beside the throne'). You ask what do I see in thise scene that suppports such notions of the Son being the Spirit....hmmm....well, lets see now....hmm..what about the 'seven eyes of the lamb being the seven spirits of God'???...Gotcha!..

what are you smokin', dude?
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Old 11-21-2014, 09:27 AM   #118
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Default Re: The Holy Spirit

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Dude, what about the four living creatures? where do htey fit in your picture of hierarcy? are they equal with the lamb because they are in 'the midst' of the throne, just like He is (NOT 'beside the throne')...
I didn't mention the four living creatures, nor the two witnesses, nor the two Seraphim, nor the "thousands upon thousands, and ten thousands of ten thousands." And I ignored the question of whether the seven angels in front of the throne in 8:2 are the seven spirits burning in front of the throne in 4:5. The point was, that John the disciple in the gospels, who with his brother James arguably vied for seats at the right and left hands of Jesus enthroned, was quite aware of the importance of spatial placement: where you sit at the king's table does indeed matter. And this spatial placement equating to hierarchical authority may feature in his Apocalyptic Revelation. You can ignore it if you want; I don't. Being on the throne is different from being in front of it, or for being around it, to John the revelator. You may choose not to see this if you wish.

I think that the two Seraphim, and likewise the four living creatures, are very interesting when considered in spatial context. They are not easy to divine (understand) according to our logic of physical dimensions. The two Seraphim in the OT are arguably more "God", to put it that way, than the seven lamps burning in front of the throne. They are closer, and are more built in. The seven eyes of the Lamb run to and fro throughout the earth, but the two Seraphim are not running anywhere. They're not "on" the throne; they "are" the throne. Not easy for our logic to comprehend. In my defense, I wrote this in the first post, that "This is a tentative picture of the Holy Spirit." I'm not trying to be Mr. know-it-all here, just saying that Lee's explanation was unsatisfying.

As far as Christ being on the throne rather than beside it, I know the scriptures have the Messiah repeatedly presented as seated at the right hand of the Most High. But I am seeing Him in this context as an interceding High Priest, not as a King. Accordingly, Revelation 1:13 has Him walking amidst the golden lampstands, which bear the seven lamps of fire, in front of God's throne, and wearing priestly garb. So here He's before the Most High God, interceding for those below.

(Speaking of which, how can God sit at His own right hand (Psa 110:1, Matt 22:44)? How can God burn in front of Himself? And how can the Son of Man be presented before the Ancient of Days in Dan 7:13 when He's the Ancient of Days Himself? "That would be illogical, Captain".)

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You ask what do I see in thise scene that suppports such notions of the Son being the Spirit....hmmm....well, lets see now....hmm..what about the 'seven eyes of the lamb being the seven spirits of God'???...Gotcha!..
And yet, the seven eyes are arguably seven angels! Remember that angels are also spirits, running to and fro throughout the earth. Notice what Hagar said to the angel, "You are the God who sees me." And that the Roman Centurion said, "I also have servants under me". The angels, ministering servants, go to and fro, and do God's bidding. They are clearly servants, not equals, yet their absolute obedience makes them operationally "God". Lee said that God was essentially one and economically three: Father, Son, Spirit. But I say, conversely, that God is economically (operationally, functionally) one. Jesus is obedient to the Father, so He is one with the Father (just as we are to be one with each other). The Holy Spirit is under Jesus' authority, so the HS is operationally one with Jesus. When you see Jesus, you see the Father. When you see the HS, you see Jesus. When you converse with the angel, you are communicating with God.

And you can call the angel "God" because time and space have collapsed. Zechariah conversed with one of the angels who stand before God's throne (Luke 1:19), and through this messenger, Zechariah also stood before the throne, talking to the Father of all light. Because the angel was clear, pure, holy, transparent, conveying God, the angel could say, "Take off your shoes, for you are now standing on holy ground." Moses called him God but Stephen in the book of Acts called him an angel, who spoke from the flaming bush. God and the angel were one, operationally. Just like if you saw the Roman Centurion you saw the full and accurate representation of Caesar. Because the Centurion also was a man, fully under authority of Caesar (Matt 8:9), just like Jesus fully under God, and the angels fully under Jesus. Jesus the man on earth was fully and operationally one with His Father in heaven.

Jesus is a Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a spirit. God is spirit. Angels are spirits. We "have" spirits. We also "have" angels(Acts 12:15; Matt 18:10). The text often cycles back and forth between "angel" and "spirit" as if they were the same thing, or at least equivalent. But I understand OBW's advice to drop it. It's probably not something that benefits from public exegesis. It isn't something anyone can prove or disprove. As I said, the only thing I am truly persuaded of is that the "standard model" doesn't stand up well to the full text. (But perhaps no other model does a better job.)
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Old 11-24-2014, 07:29 AM   #119
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(Speaking of which, how can God sit at His own right hand (Psa 110:1, Matt 22:44)? How can God burn in front of Himself? And how can the Son of Man be presented before the Ancient of Days in Dan 7:13 when He's the Ancient of Days Himself? "That would be illogical, Captain".) They are clearly servants, not equals, yet their absolute obedience makes them operationally "God". Lee said that God was essentially one and economically three: Father, Son, Spirit. But I say, conversely, that God is economically (operationally, functionally) one. Jesus is obedient to the Father, so He is one with the Father (just as we are to be one with each other). The Holy Spirit is under Jesus' authority, so the HS is operationally one with Jesus. When you see Jesus, you see the Father. When you see the HS, you see Jesus. When you converse with the angel, you are communicating with God. Jesus is a Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a spirit. God is spirit. Angels are spirits. We "have" spirits. We also "have" angels(Acts 12:15; Matt 18:10). The text often cycles back and forth between "angel" and "spirit" as if they were the same thing, or at least equivalent.
So, let me get this straight, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and the angels can be considered to be ONE with God ONLY insofar as they are one with Him in a functional sense, that is, in terms of God's will, purpose, and objectives. But Jesus is NOT God in an 'essential' sense. He is NOT a God and he is NOT God. For how can God sit beside Himself on His own right hand, right? (or burn before Himself?) But Jesus is one with God in an 'operational' way? Ditto, the Holy Spirit and the angels too???

In sum, what you are trying to say with this treatise of yours is that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are God in the sense of God being three in one!!! In fact the Holy Spirit is really just seven angels. Likewise, Jesus serves God, yes; and is under God's authority, true; but he is not actually (in reality) God Himself.

okay, I get it!
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Old 11-24-2014, 10:57 AM   #120
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In fact the Holy Spirit is really just seven angels. okay, I get it!
No I said the Holy Spirit is the Great Angel of Jehovah. Singular.

The seven Spirits in 1:4 are the seven angels that stand in front of the throne (Rev 8:2).

The Holy Spirit and the seven spirits may in fact be two different things. I covered this in one of the posts.

And all of this is a tentative hypothesis. You take a hypothesis, and examine it against the data. Data is facts. In this case scripture. The only fact is scripture. The hypothesis is tentative. Get it?
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:38 PM   #121
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The Holy Spirit and the seven spirits may in fact be two different things. I covered this in one of the posts.
I see. But I thought that in one of your earlier posts you proved out of revelation that the Holy Spirit is actually the seven spirits. Because you said that when the seven angels spoke to the seven churches, at the end of each speaking you showed that it was, in fact, the Spirit's speaking i.e. let him that has an ear, hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches, showing that the seven angels and the Spirit are the same.

Or did I misunderstand you?

But at least it would appear that we agree on one thing: that Jesus is NOT God, nor can he be God? Like you said, he can't be both on the throne and sitting on his own right hand at the same time, can he???

I mean..nuts, right?
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:20 PM   #122
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I see. But I thought that in one of your earlier posts you proved out of revelation that the Holy Spirit is actually the seven spirits. Because you said that when the seven angels spoke to the seven churches, at the end of each speaking you showed that it was, in fact, the Spirit's speaking i.e. let him that has an ear, hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches, showing that the seven angels and the Spirit are the same.
But an angel is a spirit. So the spirit speaking to the churches doesn't have to be capitalized "Holy Spirit" but can be small letter "ministering spirit". What is interesting to me is, how is the Holy Spirit, singular, capitalized, related (or not) to the small letter, multiple, holy angels (spirits) of God? Remember where the spirit is speaking at the end of the Bible. The Spirit and the Bride say come. But when John tries to worship this spirit, it says, "Don't worship me, I am a fellow servant". So at least some instances of the word "spirit" it is not talking about the Holy Spirit but about ministering spirits.

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But at least it would appear that we agree on one thing: that Jesus is NOT God, nor can he be God?
Well the Roman Centurion said, "I also am a man under authority". So was Jesus under authority, or was He equal with God?

And if the servants of the Centurion were obedient to him, who were the obedient servants that Jesus could just speak a word and the Centurion's servant would be healed? Jesus not only didn't say that the Centurion got it all wrong, he marveled that He had seen such faith.

So do we ignore the Centurion's speaking, to preserve our doctrines? Or do we critically examine our doctrines?

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Like you said, he can't be both on the throne and sitting on his own right hand at the same time, can he???

I mean..nuts, right?
Jesus was the one who brought this up, not me. Jesus said, "How can David in Spirit call Him Lord, saying, 'Jehovah said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make all your enemies a footstool at your feet' "? So Jesus is being logical here: How can we say "A" (The Messiah is David's son) if we accept "B" (David calls Him Lord).

So I wouldn't say 'nuts' but rather 'illogical'. If something has quality "A" and you accept that meaning of the word, then how can you ignore that same word elsewhere? What kind of thought world are you building?

So maybe Jesus was equal with God, then temporarily lowered himself, as a man, below God (remember where He said, "The day and hour nobody knows, not even the Son, but only the Father in heaven"), and then was exalted back to being equal with God?

Or was He as the Son always the LOGOS i.e. the Firstborn of all creation? Which is not, was not, and won't be the Father? If we understand the words "Son" and "Father" I lean towards the second understanding. It is more logical, to me.

But I know that to some people, examining doctrines critically is very challenging. They may find it insulting, i.e. 'nuts'. But I find that a doctrine that can't be challenged is a pretty weak doctrine. I would rather challenge it and see it survive.

Let me give an example. Jesus is Lord of all. I have examined this over and over again and the more I examine this man Jesus the more I admit that yes, He is the Christ of God. He is the One sent by God to convey all that God is, to us. "No one comes to the Father except by Me". All, to me, true. Because I have tried it.

Now, I am trying the Nicene Creed. That's all. That may seem nuts to you and many others, but I just like trying things. It is part of my nature. I like to think. I believe this brain was given to me by God. So I try to use it. But it may not be profitable to think aloud, in public. Some of them get alarmed.

I'll leave it with this, if I may. We have the Nicene Creed, established centuries after the writing of the Bible. How do you feel so sure that the Nicene Creed was guiding John the apostle as he composed the Apocalypse? If the Nicene Creed doesn't fit the text of scriptures, then let's try to understand why. Maybe John the apostle had something different guiding him, conceptually, as he composed. Maybe. It is a hypothesis.
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Old 11-24-2014, 03:28 PM   #123
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When the Roman Centurion said, "I also am a man under authority" he meant that when he spoke he was representing the authority of Caesar, so his servants would obey him. He said, "Go", and the servant would go. Etc.

The servant was "one" with the Centurion who was "one" with Caesar, but the servant was still a servant, the Centurion a Centurion, and Caesar was still Caesar. Operationally they were all one. But they were three. And there was a hierarchy.

Now this may not relate to God at all. But then, why is it in the Bible, if we are to ignore it as irrelevant? And why did Jesus marvel so, if the contents of the Centurion's speaking were irrelevant? And if it is relevant, then how?
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:15 AM   #124
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But at least it would appear that we agree on one thing: that Jesus is NOT God, nor can he be God?
Clearly, textually, Jesus IS God. "The Word, which was with God, and which was God, became flesh and dwelt among us." Pretty clear and definitive. My thesis, however, includes the premise that the Word, the LOGOS, is operationally God, not essentially God. Therefore we can have simultaneously have the monotheistic "One God of Israel" dwelling in heaven, and we also have the accompanying "Jesus is God incarnate" without any need to say "Jesus the Son, the LOGOS therefore is the Father".

But all of this is really moot. Is Jesus "operationally" God, or "essentially" God, or "functionally" or "economically" God? Really irrelevant, isn't it? Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ the Son. Period. Playing with words ultimately ends up in a shell game. Which shell did I hide the pea under? It has limited value in "truth", in "reality" or however we want to phrase the actual experience of our living and actions on a continual basis. Whether we use words and phrases like "economically" or "persons of the Godhead" isn't central to the task at hand. So it is important not to get distracted and stumbled; we end up overly pleased with our mental games, like Little Jack Horner, and follow that by hurling insults at each other over meanings of words.
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:03 AM   #125
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Clearly, textually, Jesus IS God. "The Word, which was with God, and which was God, became flesh and dwelt among us." Pretty clear and definitive. My thesis, however, includes the premise that the Word, the LOGOS, is operationally God, not essentially God. Therefore we can have simultaneously have the monotheistic "One God of Israel" dwelling in heaven, and we also have the accompanying "Jesus is God incarnate" without any need to say "Jesus the Son, the LOGOS therefore is the Father".
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Notice that it says "one God and Father of all", it doesn't say "one God and Lord of all". It uses the appelation "God" next to the Father, not next to the Lord, or the faith, or the baptism. It doesn't say "one God and Spirit". The only conjunctive phrase of "God and..." is with the Father. Nowhere else. There is one God and Father of all. One God.

However, for all practical purposes, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. When you see the Lord Jesus you see the Father. That's what Jesus said to Thomas, who said, "Show us the Father." When the Lord speaks it is the Father speaking. The Lord said, "What I do, is what I see the Father doing." So the Lord's doing is the Father's doing. The Lord said, "I came to do the Father's will." So the Father's will is clearly manifested in the Son. All of this can be said without confusing the two. The Son can do all that the Father has willed for us, without being the Father God. Jesus is God, operationally, functionally, and yes IS God to us, but Jesus and the Father are not to be confused.

And likewise the Spirit brings us the Son. The Spirit of the Son presents us with the Son, and to the Son. The Spirit indeed speaks what the LOGOS is speaking to the churches. But if we try to worship this speaking Spirit, it says, "Don't do that! I am your fellow servant! Worship God." So we still are monotheistic. There is one God and Father of all. But operationally the Son is God to us. And likewise the spirit is indeed the conveying Spirit of Jesus Christ. This Spirit conveys, leads us into all the reality. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you"; this prepared place is reachable by our hearing, receiving, and obeying the sent Spirit.
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:54 AM   #126
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And likewise the Spirit brings us the Son. The Spirit of the Son presents us with the Son, and to the Son. The Spirit indeed speaks what the LOGOS is speaking to the churches. But if we try to worship this speaking Spirit, it says, "Don't do that! I am your fellow servant! Worship God." So we still are monotheistic.
My view of the trinity is that we can still be monotheistic while treating the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as distinct persons, but also ontologically and co-equally God. I think man's view of oneness may differ from what God views as true oneness, which could be a spiritual oneness that goes beyond a physical definition of oneness of something being one entity. For example we may consider a person as a distinct entity, but if he is possessed by multiple personalities and spirits (Mark 5:9), he may not even be "one" in himself.

I believe God can be "one" while being distinct entities. When Jesus said that we could be one with each other as he and the Father were one, he was talking about spiritual oneness- oneness in will, mind and purpose. We may view it as metaphorical, but I believe when Jesus was speaking in spiritual or heavenly terms, he was speaking about things that he viewed were the actual reality to him, though they could not be seen in the physical realm. As Paul wrote in 2 Cor 4:18:

"So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

So when Jesus said things like whoever does God's will is my brother, sister and mother (Mark 3:35), I think he actually meant it. In the same way when he was talking about spiritual oneness, I believe he also meant that sort of oneness as the true oneness. In this manner, God views himself as truly one from his own perspective while being distinct co-equal entities that are all ontologically God.

There are also several references in the OT where God refers to himself as "us" using the plural "elohim".

Isaiah 6:8
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

I think that when God refers to himself as plural, he's referring to his distinctly separate selves, however God is still one by his own definition in a spiritual realm that he views as reality.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:16 AM   #127
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But if we try to worship this speaking Spirit, it says, "Don't do that! I am your fellow servant! Worship God." So we still are monotheistic. There is one God and Father of all. But operationally the Son is God to us. And likewise the spirit is indeed the conveying Spirit of Jesus Christ. This Spirit conveys, leads us into all the reality. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you"; this prepared place is reachable by our hearing, receiving, and obeying the sent Spirit.
There seems to be a theme within the trinity of God wherein each of the parts choose not to glorify themselves, but only glorify one another. The Father glorified the Son during his baptism and transfiguration by opening the heavens and declaring "this is my Son whom I am well pleased". The Son in turn glorifies the Father by submitting his own will to the Father in obedience and love. The Holy Spirit in turn glorifies both the Father and Son. Satan on the other hand is one distinct entity, but he seeks to glorify himself.

This could be why there's no direct mention of worshipping the Holy Spirit directly in scriptures in words, because we can only worship in spirit and truth by the Holy Spirit who indwells us. Because the Holy Spirit is intimately involved in the function of our worship of God, he in turn directs us to worship the Father and the Lord Jesus.

However, some scriptures indicate that the Holy Spirit is God and worthy of our worship and reverence.

For example, Jesus says that all sins will be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You can blaspheme the Father, or the Son, but you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit or you are damned. Jesus seems to be telling us to take care how we treat the Spirit at a level above the other parts of the trinity.

Peter also echoed this theme in Acts 5:3-4 whereby he condemns Ananias for lying to not the Father or to Jesus, but the Holy Spirit.

"But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?"

Of which the punishment was instant death.

Romans 8:26 also suggests the Holy Spirit also intercedes for us *himself* and not just as a medium that connects us to Jesus or the Father.

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans."

The Holy Spirit is also mentioned by his own name in the great commission, alongside the name of the Father and the Son (Matthew 28:19).
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Old 11-26-2014, 04:26 PM   #128
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...there's no direct mention of worshipping the Holy Spirit directly in scriptures in words, because we can only worship in spirit and truth by the Holy Spirit who indwells us. Because the Holy Spirit is intimately involved in the function of our worship of God, he in turn directs us to worship the Father and the Lord Jesus.

However, some scriptures indicate that the Holy Spirit is God and worthy of our worship and reverence.
You have my head spinning on this one but it is an interesting concept. The Worship of the HS. 2 Corinthians 13:14 is a prayer addressed to the entire Godhead. The Holy Spirit speaks (1 Timothy 4:1), loves (Romans 15:30), teaches (John 14:26), intercedes (Romans 8:26). Interestingly in John 14:26 Jesus states that the HS “…will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.” Jesus was talking to his disciples while he was alive. How are we reminded of all that “I have said to you”? Bible verses?

This is a list of many of the aspects of the person of the Holy Spirit: GOD (1 John 5:7); COMFORTER (John 14:26, JV); HELPER (John 14:26, NKJV); PARACLETOS (the One who stands by; John 14:26, original Greek); WIND of heaven (Acts 2:1-3); BREATH OF GOD (Gen. 2:7; John 20:22); RIVERS OF LIVING WATER (John 7:38); OIL OF JOY and the OIL OF GLADNESS (Is. 61:3; Ps. 45:7); SPIRIT OF TRUTH (John 15:26); SPIRIT OF FAITH (2 Cor. 4:13); SPIRIT OF LIFE (Rom. 8:1-2); SPIRIT OF HOLINESS (Rom. 1:4); SPIRIT OF LOVE (2 Tim. 1:7); SPIRIT OF POWER (2 Tim. 1:7); SPIRIT OF A SOUND MIND (2 Tim. 1:7); SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING (Is. 11:2); SPIRIT OF COUNSEL AND MIGHT (Is. 11:2); SPIRIT OF KNOWLEDGE (Is. 11:2); SPIRIT OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD (Is. 11:2); SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION (Eph. 1:17); SPIRIT OF ADOPTION (Rom. 8:15); SPIRIT OF PROMISE (Eph. 1:13); SPIRIT OF GLORY, THE SHEKINAH (1 Pet. 4:14); SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT (Is. 4:4); SPIRIT OF BURNING (Is. 4:4); SPIRIT OF PROPHECY (Rev. 19:10); SPIRIT OF CHRIST, the SPIRIT OF THE MESSIAH, and the ANOINTING that destroys the yoke (1 Pet. 1:11; Is. 10:27); SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD (Eph. 1:13; Rev. 7:2); GUARANTEE OF MY INHERITANCE (Eph. 1:13-14); ETERNAL SPIRIT (Heb. 9:14); SPIRIT OF GRACE (Zech. 12:10) and; SPIRIT OF SUPPLICATION (Zech. 12:10).

Further, the Church fathers note “in a letter that was circulated by the church in Smyrna following the death of Polycarp (c. A.D. 69-155), a disciple of the apostle John, who was being burned alive, these words were recorded:
“Wherefore also I praise you [God, the Father] for all things, I bless you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen” (Epistle from Smyrna, XIV).
The epistle also closes with a benediction of “glory for ever and ever” to Lord Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit (XXII)

Considering the wide variance of the Holy Spirit’s involvement I couldn’t see how Christians wouldn’t consider worshipping the HS.


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Old 11-26-2014, 07:23 PM   #129
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The epistle also closes with a benediction of “glory for ever and ever” to Lord Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit (XXII)

Considering the wide variance of the Holy Spirit’s involvement I couldn’t see how Christians wouldn’t consider worshipping the HS.
But if "glory" to the Father Son and Spirit indicates God-hood and a state of deserving worship, then what of the Glory of the Father and of the Son and of the holy angels? What happens to our rule? See e.g. Luke 9:26

Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

And so forth. Our rules are only as good as the verses we use them on. If we try to apply them to other verses and they collapse, how strong our our interpretive schemes?

Of all the attributes of the HS listed by Dave, many if not all of them (guide, comforter, revealer, companion, friend, etc) can be said of the ministering spirits & angels as well, who are clearly NOT included in the God-head. Furthermore, the scriptural text often flips back and forth between Creator/Holy Spirit/Godhead to messenger/creation/angel without any delineation obviously available. Our interpretive grid of Creator vs creation breaks down. The book of Revelation is chock-a-block full of this Creator/Creation blurred dichotomy, but it's by no means the only place. In fact I see it as a "consummation", if you will, of all the blurred lines in scripture. Revelations just highlights the dilemma of the trinitarian formula.

But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a desert road.)So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."…

The formula is obviously attractive but the text is not as neat and clean as we might wish. Someone warned me a while back against blaspheming against the Holy Spirit; I think it's amusing if we have to ignore scriptures to maintain our theology. God is quite robust, and isn't threatened if we examine scripture and ask questions. I think it is rather honoring God, who gave us scripture, and brains, and maybe we ought to use them both.
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:25 PM   #130
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Considering the wide variance of the Holy Spirit’s involvement I couldn’t see how Christians wouldn’t consider worshipping the HS.
I for one, LOVE AND WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT of Father God and Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal Spirit etc....

Here's a tad of my testimony:
I was one who got saved through the LC saints. My religious upbringing was Catholic and thus I always believed in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost even though I did not have a real relationship with God.

In the mid 70s when I got saved, we chanted 'O Lord Jesus' and sang about the Life Giving Spirit IN us.

For most of my spiritual journey, I prayed to the Lord Jesus. I knew that we could not get to the Father but by Jesus. He is the Truth, the WAY and the Life.

I believed He was in the Father and the Father in Him. I believed God is Spirit and we worship HIM in S/spirit and Truth.

It was not until about 4 yrs ago, I came across some wonderful anointed teachings on KNOWING the Holy Spirit and His Function. While listening to these teachings on the Holy Spirit, I got 'hammered'. BAM! His Power and Presence literally 'bammed' me. Hard to explain in words but anyone who has been 'hammered' by the Presence of God understands what I mean.

So.. for the first time in my spiritual journey, I began to address the HOLY SPIRIT. It was 'weird' for me...[actually...shame on me for feeling 'weird' addressing HIM]. So I began by saying something like: "UH... Holy Spirit, I don't know how to talk to You. I know You are God and Your are in the Son and in the Father and the Father and the Lord Jesus are in You".... (I WANTED TO MAKE SURE I had it all correct via the scriptures! ) Honestly, I was scared to speak to the Holy Spirit because I had never addressed HIM. I never said " Holy Spirit You are AWESOME. You are GOD! I love YOU ! I worship YOU!" But that night I began addressing Him and speaking to HIM. And NOW I know another ASPECT of GOD !!! It is AWESOME TO KNOW HIM!! When I am looking for something, I ALWAYS ask HIM where it is! I ALWAYS say 'HOLY SPIRIT. Where did I put my keys? Where is my phone? etc..." AND 9 .99 TIMES out of 10, I will find what I am looking for withing 30 seconds. Usually sooner.

Like I said, I LOVEEEEEEEEE THE HOLY SPIRIT ! HE is my Best Friend !!! He IS GOD. He is the VOICE OF GOD. And Jesus is the WORD of GOD revealed to us by HIS SPIRIT !!!!! Now sometimes when I am worshipping HIM, I begin to cry. BUT He is also VERY funny and often makes me chuckle and laugh.. Definitely makes me smile !!! He's the BEST! He is AWESOME!!!! 'LONG LIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF JESUS! LONG LIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF FATHER GOD!'

'HOLY SPIRIT. OH HOW I LOVE AND WORSHIP YOU! THANK YOU FOR REVEALING YOURSELF TO ME! THANK YOU FOR POINTING AND LEADING ME TO OUR PRECIOUS KING AND LORD JESUS. THANK YOU FOR REVEALING FATHER GOD TO ME TOO...TO US ALL. ALL GLORY AND HONOR, PRAISE AND BLESSING BELONGS TO YOU...FOREVER AND EVER.. Bless and anoint my brothers and sisters with more of Your LOVE, Wisdom, and JOY. Draw us all nearer and dearer to You, Father and Your Word Jesus. Heal us all to the Praise and Glory of Your NAME. amen."
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Old 11-27-2014, 01:45 AM   #131
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So.. for the first time in my spiritual journey, I began to address the HOLY SPIRIT. It was 'weird' for me...[actually...shame on me for feeling 'weird' addressing HIM]. So I began by saying something like: "UH... Holy Spirit, I don't know how to talk to You. I know You are God and Your are in the Son and in the Father and the Father and the Lord Jesus are in You".... (I WANTED TO MAKE SURE I had it all correct via the scriptures! ) Honestly, I was scared to speak to the Holy Spirit because I had never addressed HIM. I never said " Holy Spirit You are AWESOME. You are GOD! I love YOU ! I worship YOU!" But that night I began addressing Him and speaking to HIM. And NOW I know another ASPECT of GOD !!! It is AWESOME TO KNOW HIM!! When I am looking for something, I ALWAYS ask HIM where it is! I ALWAYS say 'HOLY SPIRIT. Where did I put my keys? Where is my phone? etc..." AND 9 .99 TIMES out of 10, I will find what I am looking for withing 30 seconds. Usually sooner.
Jesus said it was to our advantage that he go away so that the HS could come. Who wouldn't want Jesus to be physically present with them? But according to Jesus, it's actually better for the HS to be with us than for the Son to be present with us (John 16:7). I'm reminded of how still lacking my relationship with God is, because most of the time I probably would vote for Jesus to be physically present with me. But then, maybe not because there would probably be a crowd of people surrounding him and I would probably be like blind bartimaus shouting for the Messiah's attention in the way back. In that case, seeing how the HS allows us to directly access God 24/7 does seem pretty awesome and something we should be taking advantage of all the time.

I can't say the Holy Spirit is my best friend yet, a shame since I do meet in a Charismatic church and have read books on the HS and have experienced his gifts firsthand and should know better. But I think I will try to give it a better shot after hearing your testimony.

I've wondered if the Holy Spirit only seems like the lowest key part of the trinity in scriptures because he authored and breathed it, and because God is humble, he doesn't like to toot his own horn. It makes sense then why Jesus took the opportunity to actively promote the Holy Spirit's awesomeness and defend Him. And if Jesus did then, how much more should we escpecially since the last event to have been fulfilled in God's seven feast timeline was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost-- so we are living in the age of the Holy Spirit.
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Old 11-27-2014, 09:52 PM   #132
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I can't say the Holy Spirit is my best friend yet, a shame since I do meet in a Charismatic church and have read books on the HS and have experienced his gifts firsthand and should know better. But I think I will try to give it a better shot after hearing your testimony.
Hey bearbear,
Getting to know GOD is a work in progress. Hee hee. He is beyond our comprehension but as long as we are willing to work on our relationship with HIM, He will reveal more of HIMSELF to us and shower us with MORE of His Love. One question I have for you. When you wrote you are willing to give IT a try, are you referring to the process of getting to know the Holy Spirit OR were you referring the Spirit as an 'it'? The Holy Spirit is a PERSON not an IT. I have always known He was the third Person of the Godhead but did not know some people refer to HIM as an 'it' until a few years ago.


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I've wondered if the Holy Spirit only seems like the lowest key part of the trinity in scriptures because he authored and breathed it, and because God is humble, he doesn't like to toot his own horn.
Interesting you wrote this because I recall some preachers/teachers referring to the Holy Spirit as a 'Gentleman'. Yet being the VOICE of God, He can SCREAM. On more than one occasion He has SCREAMED at me to get my undivided attention. It's funny when He does ! I can be so hardheaded at times ! or plain dense So He might be a Gentleman but God sure has a VOICE on HIM!!

He also has feelings. He GRIEVES when He is hurt or rejected. And we are told NOT TO GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT !(Ephesians 4:30)

Also God the Holy Spirit is somewhat hidden from us and from the world but He is not the lowest person of the TRINITY. I know you wrote it SEEMS and I know you know He is not. The only reason it seems as HE might be is because He, GOD is Spirit. And boy oh boy, understanding the Spirit realm is hard to come by in this physical world. Jesus, the WORD of GOD Who became flesh is easier for us to relate to because God put on a flesh body albeit without sin. People saw a MAN filled with the SPIRIT of God. Sometimes they understood what He said and would do because it was 'earthly and other times people could not because the He spoke the language of the Spirit.

When I realized the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus to me and pointed me to HIM that I might get saved, I began to ask Him to REVEAL God's Scriptures to me so I would understand. In the early days, I would pray "LORD! Open the eyes of my understanding." That was a prayer I learned in my early years in the LC. Obviously, the LORD Whom I made this request to was and is the Father, Son (Word) and Holy Spirit. But when I began to address
GOD AS the Holy Spirit and prayed, "Holy Spirit. Open my eyes so I understand what I am reading please." NOW.... Almighty GOD revealed more of HIMSELF to me.

I truly am in LOVE with the HOLY SPIRIT as I am with my KING and Savior, Lord Jesus.. I WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS I do Father God and His Word, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings and showers of God's Love and Anointing,
Carol
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:34 AM   #133
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Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Notice that it says "one God and Father of all", it doesn't say "one God and Lord of all". It uses the appelation "God" next to the Father, not next to the Lord, or the faith, or the baptism. It doesn't say "one God and Spirit". The only conjunctive phrase of "God and..." is with the Father. Nowhere else. There is one God and Father of all. One God.

However, for all practical purposes, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. When you see the Lord Jesus you see the Father. That's what Jesus said to Thomas, who said, "Show us the Father." When the Lord speaks it is the Father speaking. The Lord said, "What I do, is what I see the Father doing." So the Lord's doing is the Father's doing. The Lord said, "I came to do the Father's will." So the Father's will is clearly manifested in the Son. All of this can be said without confusing the two. The Son can do all that the Father has willed for us, without being the Father God. Jesus is God, operationally, functionally, and yes IS God to us, but Jesus and the Father are not to be confused.

And likewise the Spirit brings us the Son. The Spirit of the Son presents us with the Son, and to the Son. The Spirit indeed speaks what the LOGOS is speaking to the churches. But if we try to worship this speaking Spirit, it says, "Don't do that! I am your fellow servant! Worship God." So we still are monotheistic. There is one God and Father of all. But operationally the Son is God to us. And likewise the spirit is indeed the conveying Spirit of Jesus Christ. This Spirit conveys, leads us into all the reality. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you"; this prepared place is reachable by our hearing, receiving, and obeying the sent Spirit.
So we shouldn't confuse the Son and the Father, huh? Because of the one scripture verse you've quoted (and misapplied) from Ephesians? "One God and Father", therefore, Jesus is not God. He shouldn't be confused with God, huh? What about the scripture that you have so conveniently ignored that says "and the Word was God" in the gospel of John? So we shouldn't confuse the Word with God, huh?

Man, you need to read your Bible! You're just simply jumping and skipping around all over Scripture, WRENCHING and TWISTING verses to suit your own very lop-sided understanding of the whole revelation of God. I just wonder how you could interpret Matthew 22: 41-45 the way you did in one of your earlier posts with such a straight face? Nobody but the Pharisees (and now you) have ever interpreted that psalm in that way! Like them, you have missed the Lord's point entirely!

Brother, wake up!

p.s. and FYI, it was Philip (and NOT Thomas) who asked Jesus to "show us the Father"...and you think you've got the edge over Witness Lee?!...maybe you should've stayed a little bit longer in the LC's and maybe LEARNED SOMETHING..like how to read your Bible!!!
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:11 AM   #134
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Hey "Unregistered Guest" could you please take a few minutes and register. Please send your request along with desired UserName to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com.

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Old 11-28-2014, 11:02 AM   #135
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Hi all,
Forgive me for posting this song here instead of the thread where we can tune into Worship and Praise the Lord our God in music.

This is such a calming, soothing, LOVE FILLED song that melts all our troubles away. It is called Jesus--King of Angels by Fernando Ortega. I promise you, you will fall in Love with Jesus our King all over again. Peace and Blessings to all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myn8TdSNc4k
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Old 11-28-2014, 11:29 AM   #136
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So we shouldn't confuse the Son and the Father, huh? Because of the one scripture verse you've quoted (and misapplied) from Ephesians? "One God and Father", therefore, Jesus is not God. He shouldn't be confused with God, huh? What about the scripture that you have so conveniently ignored that says "and the Word was God" in the gospel of John? So we shouldn't confuse the Word with God, huh?

Man, you need to read your Bible! You're just simply jumping and skipping around all over Scripture, WRENCHING and TWISTING verses to suit your own very lop-sided understanding of the whole revelation of God. I just wonder how you could interpret Matthew 22: 41-45 the way you did in one of your earlier posts with such a straight face? Nobody but the Pharisees (and now you) have ever interpreted that psalm in that way! Like them, you have missed the Lord's point entirely!

Brother, wake up!

p.s. and FYI, it was Philip (and NOT Thomas) who asked Jesus to "show us the Father"...and you think you've got the edge over Witness Lee?!...maybe you should've stayed a little bit longer in the LC's and maybe LEARNED SOMETHING..like how to read your Bible!!!
Whether aron mistakenly said “Thomas” rather than “Philip” is irrelevant since the statement, “Show us the Father” is the issue. This thread “The Holy Spirit” is listed under “Alternative Views” so aron is not out of place expressing his opinion which may be different than the traditional view. aron’s view is provocative in so far as it is raising the issues of our discussion of worshiping the HS. In fact, I find his discussion intriguing especially as he brings in the issue of the angels and whether or not I agree with him is not the issue. Also, I don’t see where aron confuses the Son and the Father which you indicate he does.

My opinion of this forum after reading many posts from many individuals is that it is a forum of people who either have left the LC or maybe are still in it but each have a point of view---either very traditional Evangelical, Evangelical with various slants of beliefs, non-Evangelical etc. However, they are all trying to make sense of their lives after having been in the LC and are discovering various viewpoints as they continue to search the Bible for answers to the most pressing issues of our lives.

IMHO---The best way to disagree is to state one’s point of view in contrast to aron’s backed up with whatever info you have available. Stating that his point of view is WRENCHING and TWISTING is not productive or constructive from my standpoint without providing your perspective in a way that anyone reading it could understand how you disagree. For all I know aron may be stating this perspective just to find out if anyone is paying attention.
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Old 11-29-2014, 06:16 AM   #137
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Dave,

yes I am being a gadfly here, an agent provocateur. I felt 'alternative views' was an opportunity to poke at questions that no one seems to answer.

Notice that nobody has taken the bait. Why is the angel of the lord called God. And why did an angel of God tell Philip something, and then the Holy Spirit shortly after that? What was the HS doing when the angel was speaking, and vice versa? To those of you who've become annoyed at my incessant poking about, I apologize. Some things may not be profitable in public.
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Old 11-29-2014, 07:26 AM   #138
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Whether aron mistakenly said “Thomas” rather than “Philip” is irrelevant since the statement, “Show us the Father” is the issue. This thread “The Holy Spirit” is listed under “Alternative Views” so aron is not out of place expressing his opinion which may be different than the traditional view. Also, I don’t see where aron confuses the Son and the Father which you indicate he does.
Really? Really?...really, Person Dave? Of all that I included in that post, you decide to pounce on my 'post-script', on my 'point of clarification', and make a big issue out of it? That was your takeaway? Seriously? Boy, oh boy, I sure hope you never catch me picking ears of corn on the Sabbath?!!

p.s. as for confusing the Son with the Father, please read the thread through carefully before jumping in next time. Aron said we shouldn't confuse the Son with the Father because the Son is not God. Capisce?
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Old 11-29-2014, 07:54 AM   #139
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Man, you need to read your Bible! You're just simply jumping and skipping around all over Scripture, WRENCHING and TWISTING verses to suit your own very lop-sided understanding of the whole revelation of God. I just wonder how you could interpret Matthew 22: 41-45 the way you did in one of your earlier posts with such a straight face? Nobody but the Pharisees (and now you) have ever interpreted that psalm in that way! Like them, you have missed the Lord's point entirely!

Brother, wake up!
Dude, lighten up, man. Ain't you being a little too emotional? This is precisely what aron is talkin about, y'know, being emotional and not being logical. You gotta be logical, man. He's not twisting and wrenching the scriptures as much as he's simply just adjusting them so that they can fit his logic, yer know what I mean? Is all.

Consider this, is it logical for the same people to be in two different places at the same time? no, of course not. It ain't logical, man...is all aron is sayin'. we gotta use our brains, dude! aron said God can't be seated beside himself in heaven on his own right hand, think 'bout it, it don't make sense, man. Could you sit on your right hand? It's impossible. So Jesus can't be God, man. Like the Holy Spirit being God and being the seven lamps of fire burning before Himself also don't make sense, either.

And you know what else? I mean look at all the other crazy stuff that ain't logical in the scriptures. Have you ever seen a woman give birth to a child without having been with a guy? It's jus illogical, right? Jesus being born of a virgin? haha, it's crazy. aron says we can't believe that stuff, coz it's impossible. It don't make sense, man.

I mean, moreover, how does someone rise from the dead? ever seen anyone rise from the dead, dude? no, of course not. When you're dead, you're dead. You don't come back, man! So Jesus rising from the dead is jus simply illogical! All aron is sayin' is how can you believe that, man? It don't make sense. Rising from the dead??? I mean, c'mon!

It's jus' illogical...we gotta read the bible logically is all aron is sayin'
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:19 AM   #140
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Dave,

yes I am being a gadfly here, an agent provocateur. I felt 'alternative views' was an opportunity to poke at questions that no one seems to answer.

Notice that nobody has taken the bait. Why is the angel of the lord called God. And why did an angel of God tell Philip something, and then the Holy Spirit shortly after that? What was the HS doing when the angel was speaking, and vice versa?
One interpretation is that the Holy Spirit dwells within our spirit and speaks to us inaudibly Spirit to spirit. When the Holy Spirit speaks to us, we just "know" his voice. However, it's possible that the Holy Spirit speaks to us audibly also as he may have done with Samuel.

Angels on the other hand speak to us audibly and when they do they may even be seen visibly. Hence why Philip may have reported the distinction.
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:33 AM   #141
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Hey bearbear,
Getting to know GOD is a work in progress. Hee hee. He is beyond our comprehension but as long as we are willing to work on our relationship with HIM, He will reveal more of HIMSELF to us and shower us with MORE of His Love. One question I have for you. When you wrote you are willing to give IT a try, are you referring to the process of getting to know the Holy Spirit OR were you referring the Spirit as an 'it'? The Holy Spirit is a PERSON not an IT. I have always known He was the third Person of the Godhead but did not know some people refer to HIM as an 'it' until a few years ago.
I never made this distinction until a few months ago when I heard a teaching by John Bevere. My wife and I are going through his book on the Holy Spirit now and he's drilled this point in our heads . I can say I have this knowledge doctrinally, but I'm not sure if I have it in practice yet, but I think it definitely will affect how I treat the Holy Spirit.

I made a verse set a week ago collecting verses on the Holy Spirit's personhood. I added a few verses from Dave's post as well:

http://www.verserain.com/verseset/sh...7ab049ddeaf4f9
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:55 AM   #142
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Dude, lighten up, man. Ain't you being a little too emotional? This is precisely what aron is talkin about, y'know, being emotional and not being logical. You gotta be logical, man. He's not twisting and wrenching the scriptures as much as he's simply just adjusting them so that they can fit his logic, yer know what I mean? Is all.

Consider this, is it logical for the same people to be in two different places at the same time? no, of course not. It ain't logical, man...is all aron is sayin'. we gotta use our brains, dude! aron said God can't be seated beside himself in heaven on his own right hand, think 'bout it, it don't make sense, man. Could you sit on your right hand? It's impossible. So Jesus can't be God, man. Like the Holy Spirit being God and being the seven lamps of fire burning before Himself also don't make sense, either.

And you know what else? I mean look at all the other crazy stuff that ain't logical in the scriptures. Have you ever seen a woman give birth to a child without having been with a guy? It's jus illogical, right? Jesus being born of a virgin? haha, it's crazy. aron says we can't believe that stuff, coz it's impossible. It don't make sense, man.

I mean, moreover, how does someone rise from the dead? ever seen anyone rise from the dead, dude? no, of course not. When you're dead, you're dead. You don't come back, man! So Jesus rising from the dead is jus simply illogical! All aron is sayin' is how can you believe that, man? It don't make sense. Rising from the dead??? I mean, c'mon!

It's jus' illogical...we gotta read the bible logically is all aron is sayin'
Okay, here is the deal. You are just writing to yourself from Unregistered to Unregistered and it is a little annoying. It is obvious because you are using the same language in both with the same attitude. Sarcasm can work at times but in your case it doesn’t work. It might work if you register and we know who the heck you are, if you tell us a little more about yourself….in that case we will understand who you are. At this point, and I don’t mean to sound dismissive of your posts, but you sound like an idiot. As a result people are not listening to whatever points you are trying to make. So lighten up, register, and make your points in a calmer more productive way. Thanks.
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:56 AM   #143
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Old 11-29-2014, 09:01 AM   #144
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Default Re: The Holy Spirit

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Originally Posted by aron View Post
yes I am being a gadfly here, an agent provocateur. I felt 'alternative views' was an opportunity to poke at questions that no one seems to answer.

Notice that nobody has taken the bait.
Bait? I heard there's free cheese around here, in little convenient dispensers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
Why is the angel of the lord called God. And why did an angel of God tell Philip something, and then the Holy Spirit shortly after that? What was the HS doing when the angel was speaking, and vice versa? To those of you who've become annoyed at my incessant poking about, I apologize. Some things may not be profitable in public.
Yer on Alternative Views. Let yer hair down.

And ... questions, questions, questions. Troublesome little boogers. They sure can cause problems. I find my questions cause way more problems than my answers. I've found, in some situations, a question dropped at the right moment can explode a classroom of heads, and draw a classroom of fire. Och!

But not on Alternative views.

And methinks thinks all yer bumbling and fumbling around with angels this, Lord that, throne there, and why, is an easy one to answer:

God can be anything He wants, anytime He wants, all at the same time if He wants, and any shape, or non-shape, that He wants, and our little peas brains will never be able to understand it. He's God, after all.

Oh, and Oh! Yer messing around with that crazy book Revelations. What do you expect?

Look into Montanus, Priscilla and Maximilla (2nd c.). "They aroused enthusiastic supporters— and hostile opponents. Those who accused the “new prophets” of being inspired by Satan also attacked John’s now famous— or infamous—Book of Revelation , saying that what it “revealed” was nothing but the mad ravings of a heretic."
~Pagels, Elaine (2012-03-06). Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, and Politics in the Book of Revelation (p. 104). Penguin Group US. Kindle Edition.
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Old 11-29-2014, 09:09 AM   #145
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Default Re: The Holy Spirit

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Originally Posted by aron View Post
I understand the popular vote is with Mr. Mephibosheth on this. Again, that's why I put it out on "alternative views". Without this format I wouldn't have bothered, to phrase Mr. Angus Kinnear, going "against the tide".

John's style, if you will, included copy Jesus' style, with a public, exoteric teaching, and a private, esoteric teaching. Jesus would speak in public, and say, "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear"... then privately Jesus would explain the parable to his closest disciples. Are you still with me here?

Okay, guess what John does in the Revelation, after each epistle to the seven Asian churches? He writes, "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches". Sound familiar? (Which Spirit, evidently was an angel, at least if you look at the beginning of each epistle) ["To the angel of the church in Sardis..."]) So there is a mirror here, of the exoteric pronouncement, and esoteric to follow. But obviously there is no "code book" where we have the esoteric explanation of Revelation. Did John, orally, explain everything to his disciples? Some Fathers said yes, but we don't know.

Anyway, if you don't have an "ear to hear" what I have an ear to hear, that is okay. Neither is right or wrong here. It is a picture, a parable, and we have our subjective responses. I have mine and you have yours. Style is a subjective assessment. I have my assessment and I've shared it.
We are first introduced to the Lord Jesus, or the Son of man, in Revelation with a very vivid and colorful description. He cannot be mistaken for somebody else or misidentified.

Revelation 1: 13- 19
[He was] "clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter..."

He instructs John to write to the seven angels of the seven churches:

Revelation 2: 1-7
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks...
...I know thy works...et cetera, et cetera...
...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..."

Now, unless Aron has another Bible of his own edition that he reads out of, it is quite clear that not only are the 'saith he' and the 'Spirit saith' one and the same (even according to Aron's own rubric of interpretation), but he that 'saith' in the first instance is Jesus (as unmistakably described) and is also the Spirit that 'saith' at the end of the message to the church in Ephesus.

Let's move on...

Revelation 2: 8-11
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These things saith the first and the last, which was dead and is alive...
...I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty...et cetera, et cetera...
...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..."

Now, unless my Bible has some horrible typing error, how can I possibly infer that an angel said the things that were said to this church. Clearly he who said those things was Jesus (as he himself described himself in the first chapter), and he is also synonymous with the Spirit (as Aron has already agreed). No angel said these things.

Let's have one more last go at this...

Revelation 2:18-29
"And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass...
...I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience...et cetera, et cetera...
...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..."

Now here John makes it appallingly clear (appalling for Aron), that in case he missed the vivid description of the Son of man in the first chapter (which Aron's Bible seems to be missing), well 'let me put it bluntly', John seems to be saying, that 'he who is saying these things' is the Son of God and not an angel, or the seven angels, or some such...could he have been any clearer?

And so, I must ask my dear brother Aron, where has he got these notions of which he is so eloquent and robust in his defence of them? Alas, they have no foundation in any Bible that I know of. How has Aron not 'wrenched' and 'twisted' the plain meaning of the Bible for use to his own nefarious ends? He has, in effect, added to the words of the prophecy of this book (Rev 22: 18-19). And I think we all know what John has guaranteed will happen to those who fall into this kind of error. I do not know whether cowering behind the euphemism of 'alternative view' will be any more of a defence in that day than a Sodomite's declaration of his own innocence will be when he claims that his was only an 'alternative lifestlye'...

Good day to you all.