How much is a "Morning Revival"?

It's $2.50 some twenty years ago. A brother T from China said to me, you know some poor families in China can use that money for many things. I didn't get it at that time until later I left the local church. I never questioned the money I spent on it. I'd like to know how much money have we spent on books and journals of the Living Stream Ministry. Brother T went through the "Great Cultural Revolution" during the Mao Era. He knew what was going on, sadly I didn't at that time. Think that in Taiwan along, there are about one hundred thousand active followers reading the morning revivals. How much can it generate?

I am new to this forum. I've read some of the posts and feel so depressed that our love ones are somehow trapped in it. It is particulary difficult for someone with a Chinese or Taiwanese background. Maybe starting to take your love ones who are in the local church do some charity work without any strings attached. Show them there are people in real needs and our Lord wants to help them with their practical needs.

One thing troubles me greatly: Mr. Hank H. at CRI, his report has misled lots of things. Can anyone provide evidence regarding his financial dealings with the Living Stream?

[Freedom]

I'm not sure exactly how much a Morning Revival booklet goes for nowadays, because I don't buy them. I think they are between $5-10. Though I am still in the LC, I have managed to avoid purchasing those booklets for several years now.

I have never found the Morning Revival booklet to be particularly helpful to me. Even though some might claim it is, the fact of the matter is that after the whole booklet has been covered, it either finds it's way to the bookshelf to collect dust or the trash can.

In regards to whether or not it brings in lots of money for the LSM, I have no idea how much they make off of it. Considering that it's just a conglomerate of WL's ministry that can be found elsewhere, I don't think that it's worth the paper it's printed on.

I don't want to try speculate as to LSM's motives or if there is any financial gain from selling those booklets, but what I do know is that they have a certain attitude about their publications.

If you were to visit LSM's site where you can read their online publications, you will encounter a disclaimer and warning:
"Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited. Your IP address is x.x.x.x"

Awhile back I visited the site www.austin-sparks.net and noticed a disclaimer that states the following:
"In keeping with T. Austin-Spark's wishes that what was freely received should be freely given and not sold for profit, and that his messages be reproduced word for word, we ask if you choose to share these messages with others, to please respect his wishes and offer them freely - free of any changes, free of any charge (except necessary distribution costs) and with this statement included."

When you put these two statements side-by-side, it's easy to see LSM's attitude about their publications. Publishers have every right to charge for their publications, I'm not saying that they should be free or anything, but what I wanted to point out that their attitude is quite different from other people that were associated with WL like T Austin Sparks.

Go to guidestar.org and enter Living Stream. These data are for 2012.

Total Revenue
$14,967,630
Total Expenses
$13,796,830

[zeek]

They vary from $2.66 to $4.50 on Amazon.com for Kindle versions.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...ee%2Caps%2C498

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Go to guidestar.org and enter Living Stream. These data are for 2012.

Total Revenue
$14,967,630
Total Expenses
$13,796,830

So about $1.2M. Not really a whole lot by itself to cover the salaries of the ones who actually work in it. Since the paid ones are not simply Lee and his sons, it is not a huge amount for its workers. But it does keep them from having to get real jobs in the real world.

Let's just say that they are not getting rich. But do they deserve to be gleaning money for distributing the kind of pabulum that they produce while pretending it is real food for Christian living?

Originally Posted by OBW

So about $1.2M. Not really a whole lot by itself to cover the salaries of the ones who actually work in it. Since the paid ones are not simply Lee and his sons, it is not a huge amount for its workers. But it does keep them from having to get real jobs in the real world.

I thought expenses include salaries, maintenance of LSM, etc.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I thought expenses include salaries, maintenance of LSM, etc.

Sorry to be such a cynic but I suspect the expenses are fudged. Many services are provided free, by local church suckers, er, ah, saints. Plus, they've fudged their taxes in the past. Why change now.

We have a member here that was booted out for saying Witness Lee committed crimes. When confront by the elders, and told to deny the statement or get out, he had to hold to what he knew was true, and that was the end of his local church life.

Truth don't stand with human institutions either.

http://207.153.189.83/EINS/237031637...2_09e05f75.PDF

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have never found the Morning Revival booklet to be particularly helpful to me. Even though some might claim it is, the fact of the matter is that after the whole booklet has been covered, it either finds it's way to the bookshelf to collect dust or the trash can.

In regards to whether or not it brings in lots of money for the LSM, I have no idea how much they make off of it. Considering that it's just a conglomerate of WL's ministry that can be found elsewhere, I don't think that it's worth the paper it's printed on.

I don't want to try speculate as to LSM's motives or if there is any financial gain from selling those booklets, but what I do know is that they have a certain attitude about their publications.

I don't know how much relevance the Morning Revival has financially. Certainly it does provide a certain flow of revenue from the local churches, but much more it keeps local churches plugged into the One Publication.

Personally I find the Morning Revival not much sustaining. It's self-serving for the purpose of lip service, but really how much of it's content has long lasting impact on the lives of brothers and sisters?
I find the scriptural content included is to support the ministry content even if the ministry content may at times in contradiction to the Bible. More often than not I find the Morning Revival more outrageous than it is edifying.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry to be such a cynic but I suspect the expenses are fudged. Many services are provided free, by local church suckers, er, ah, saints. Plus, they've fudged their taxes in the past. Why change now.

I am very skeptical. Of course you would have to break down where the total revenue and total expenses comes from:
How much is spent by LSM to support it's workers?
How much is spent by LSM on travel?
How much is spent by LSM on health insurance?
How much is spent by LSM to have radio broadcasts?
How much was spent towards CRI?
How much revenue comes from publications?
How much revenue comes from webcast subscriptions?
How much revenue comes from trainings fees I mean donations?
How much revenue comes from Local churches for DCP, rela estate purchases etc?
How much revenue comes in to support past, present, and future litigation?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have never found the Morning Revival booklet to be particularly helpful to me. Even though some might claim it is, the fact of the matter is that after the whole booklet has been covered, it either finds it's way to the bookshelf to collect dust or the trash can...

I always found them to be very "needy". The outlines were full of "we need to" and "we have to" and "we must" and "we should", as if Lee's own unfulfilled needs and inner dissatisfaction were now transfusing themselves through the outline, and message text.

Interesting, to me, that when the Psalmist declared fealty and obedience to God's word, the current MOTA taught that this was natural and fallen, and that nobody could fulfill the biblical commands. Somehow he missed the idea that obedience to God's commands in the OT was a TYPE, a PICTURE, a SHADOW of the coming Messiah, which we now could participate in by our FAITH in such a victorious and overcoming One.

Instead, in the HWFMR, we got theological exegeses, which we were supposed to be obedient and submissive to! But we already knew that the letter kills; so why pray-read Lee's directives?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

I am very skeptical. Of course you would have to break down where the total revenue and total expenses comes from:
How much is spent by LSM to support it's workers?
How much is spent by LSM on travel?
How much is spent by LSM on health insurance?
How much is spent by LSM to have radio broadcasts?
How much was spent towards CRI?
How much revenue comes from publications?
How much revenue comes from webcast subscriptions?
How much revenue comes from trainings fees I mean donations?
How much revenue comes from Local churches for DCP, rela estate purchases etc?
How much revenue comes in to support past, present, and future litigation?

See the link in post #8

My question is: is the FTTA a separate legal entity with its own budget? I think probably, like a "local church" that is subject to LSM but legally separate.

And the Taipei Gospel Book Room, etc. Probably a lot of the stuff is "off the books" legally but completely enmeshed in the LSM money-making machine. That way you never see the whole thing.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

http://207.153.189.83/EINS/237031637...2_09e05f75.PDF

From the looks of it LSM is like a charity that uses all the money for their salaries, with not much left for anything else. Why does a publishing company need so many top dogs on it's salary? I smell a rat.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

I smell a rat.

I've finally figured out your special gifting. Rat smelling.

Just teasin' bro.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I've finally figured out your special gifting. Rat smelling.

Just teasin' bro.

LoL .... We all have to be good at sompin. Everybody can smell a skunk....

How come those on the LSM payroll are local church preachers? Do they get a house, car, and expenses, like the preachers around here?

I smell a rat again.

Originally Posted by aron

See the link in post #8

I think probably, like a "local church" that is subject to LSM but legally separate.

Is it possible to break that "bond?" The reason I asked is because I am so grateful to a brother J. who happens to be an elder in a local church. I don't want to make him sad if he knows I left the local church for good. Why is LSM strong armed to every local church? Brother Aron, I read your recent posts and they gave me light and support. Brother J. helped me greatly, too. What should I do?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Is it possible to break that "bond?"

Of course. Any bond can be broken. The question is, are you prepared to break it? Are you ready for what comes next? Everything you thought you knew comes apart. If you have "the church" and not "God" as your navigational center, and you let go of the church as the focal point of your universe you will have to find a new God. Or rather, you will have to let God find you, wherever you find yourself. Do you believe God can do that? If you reply 'Yes', then let go.

Why is LSM strong armed to every local church?

It seems as if everyone has their own answer to this question. My best attempt at an answer is probably found in the way societies structure themselves. See my comments in "The Asian mind and the Western mind" thread. If you are Asian, you may have some helpful comments from within your own socially-developed understandings that help us with this. Nee & Lee came from a culture that said, "Never question authority." See Nee's writings to the Chinese saints vis-a-vis the newly victorious Communists in the early 1950s. Strict obedience to the state was a given.

Today, of course, absolute submission is dressed up in spiritual garb: "the ministry of the age" and "the Lord's present testimony" and "the oneness of the Body of Christ". But in reality it means one thing: I am the Boss. It is an unquestioned and unchallenged statement, and because it's unquestioned it remains firmly in place. Its very survival depends on its not being questioned. As soon as you begin to critically poke at the underlying assumptions it collapses fairly quickly.

Remember, you didn't go through what you went through, for nothing. God is a businessman, who wants to use your experiences to help others. God has an investment in you. So your journey is not a selfish one, but it is tied up, somehow, with the journeys of many others. Trust God and continue your journey. You are not alone.

If I have learned anything, it is that I am unqualified to serve God. So is your friend "J". Everyone is partly compromised, including Witness Lee. Only Jesus can serve God. So take your eyes off of "J", off of your situation, off of the church as you understand it, off of your history. Watch Jesus. Watch Him carefully.

When Jesus said, "I am the way", He was serious: He is the way. Let go of everything else.

[HERn]

Hello Unregistered. I would like to make a comment on "breaking the bond" and "watching Jesus carefully" as mentioned by bro Aron. I have benefitted greatly by reading the gospels without anyone's footnotes (LSM, others) and just learning about Jesus afresh. I think I need a "freshening" (maybe continually). Sometimes in the Lord's Recovery the thinking is to go beyond the "low gospel" (I hate that term now), the Jesus in the gospels into so-called high peak things like the seven-fold intensified spirit, the processed and consummated god...how can we go on beyond our precious Lord and savior Jesus Christ? To me there is nothing beyond Him.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

... so-called high peak things like the seven-fold intensified spirit, the processed and consummated god...how can we go on beyond our precious Lord and savior Jesus Christ? To me there is nothing beyond Him.

You may find, after leaving the Lord's Recovery, that God is much more "intensified", more "processed", and more "consummated" than you ever dreamed possible! The LSM folks tell you that's impossible. But I'm saying its possible. I'm not saying it is certain, like Lee saying that as long as you stay on the "ground" you're sanctified. But I'm saying it's possible. But first you have to be willing to let go of what you think you know.

Think of it this way: for the prodigal son to get the robe and ring and fatted calf he had to let go of the pig sty. Not easy to do; he was probably clinging to it, white-knuckled and snarling, when he came to his senses. But when he let go, and turned, and began to seek, a new reality opened for him.

What I find so interesting about the parable of the prodigal son is that he "remembered" reality, just like Nebuchadnezzar had done; suddenly he remembered his Father, and the house where he belonged. But until he remembered, the pig trough was his home. Reality was there the whole time. But he had to remember, and look up.

LSM folks don't seem to offer much but re-packaged Lee, combined with constantly reinforced warnings not to look around, not to look up, not to let go, not to consider, not to question. Supposedly terror and doom await you if you look away from the brotherhood of Lee's ministry. Why are they so terrified of anyone reading the Bible without Lee's voice in their ear? Or of reading someone else's interpretation?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Is it possible to break that "bond?" The reason I asked is because I am so grateful to a brother J. who happens to be an elder in a local church. I don't want to make him sad if he knows I left the local church for good. ... Brother Aron, I read your recent posts and they gave me light and support. Brother J. helped me greatly, too. What should I do?

Hi unregistered.
YES! IT IS POSSIBLE to break the bonds. However... the memories will linger. And that's just part of life on this earth.

What helped me break the bonds is GIVING THANKS and asking the LORD to bless those who blessed me while in the LC.

I am thankful that (back in the 70s) I was encouraged to read and 'pray read' scriptures and read the Word. As an example. Several months after I had become saved and was pretty much an 'LCr', I went to an LC home for lunch/dinner. There was a picture of a loaf of bread on the wall with the inscription 'I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE'. I stopped to ponder the picture and scripture, and suddenly 'bing', the LIGHT lit up ! I had my AH -HA moment. Because I/we had been eating Jesus for all those months, Holy Spirit GOD revealed the understanding to me.

So I am thankful for my Salvation, Deliverance and the spiritual care I received. When the focus was intensified on Lee and the church, the Presence and Love for Father God, Son/Word, Jesus and Holy Spirit, Voice of God left. HE went POOF! and so did I! I left. Was it easy? Nope! But His Goodness and His Mercy followed me wherever I went. And He will do the same with you. HE WILL NOT FORSAKE YOU OR LEAVE YOU...only draw you nearer to Him and give you renewed Strength in Him.

Why is LSM strong armed to every local church?

Because it has a deep desire and hunger to 'CONTROL'. Every leader if not truly seeking the Counsel of the Holy Spirit will inevitably taste the POWER of CONTROL. Look at our political leaders and religious leaders...(not only in this country btw)

AND it is people...the lay people... the 'common' folks that give that POWER to control. A good leader and a good teacher in the LORD will help a person or congregation to FOLLOW THE SPIRIT and the LIGHT of the Word.

That doesn't mean we stop fellowshipping and learning from one another. Simply means... STOP idolizing a leader !!!!!!!!!!!

And that is what the LC did. They took their eyes of Jesus, stopped walking in the SPIRIT...and relied on Lee and the footnotes, the morning revivals, the trainings, etc..... to FEED them....and accecpt ONLY THEIR FOOD.

That is why there are so many sickly LSMrs.

The GOOD NEWS! Our Awesome KING and SAVIOR, LORD and DELIVERER JESUS will guide us all back to Himself. His sheep KNOW His Voice (Holy Spirit) and will lead us ALL back to Himself. He restores our health and heals our wounds. That's His Promise. And Jesus is a KEEPER of His Promise.

Blessings on your Journey !!!!!!!!!
Carol

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

... it has a deep desire and hunger to 'CONTROL'. Every leader if not truly seeking the Counsel of the Holy Spirit will inevitably taste the POWER of CONTROL. Look at our political leaders and religious leaders...(not only in this country btw)

This reminds me of the HWFMR outlines, they're full of "we need to" and "we must" and "we should" and "we have to". All showing deep-seated dissatisfaction, being manifested through a ministry of need. The need for power masks insecurity.

Originally Posted by HERn

Sometimes in the Lord's Recovery the thinking is to go beyond the "low gospel" (I hate that term now), the Jesus in the gospels into so-called high peak things like the seven-fold intensified spirit, the processed and consummated god...how can we go on beyond our precious Lord and savior Jesus Christ? To me there is nothing beyond Him.

Indeed, I need to come to God and pray to Him, knowing that He loves me dearly. Semi-mandatory speaking in the meeting really shuts me off completely. It is probably my own problem. However, I quite like some pastors' talks about God's love on the youtube. I wish that someday this website can add on some video/audio messages. I'd love to hear brother Aron's talks about how God loves all of us and our Jesus is the way in our daily life.

Originally Posted by aron

Of course. Any bond can be broken. The question is, are you prepared to break it? Are you ready for what comes next? Everything you thought you knew comes apart. If you have "the church" and not "God" as your navigational center, and you let go of the church as the focal point of your universe you will have to find a new God. Or rather, you will have to let God find you, wherever you find yourself. Do you believe God can do that? If you reply 'Yes', then let go.

It seems as if everyone has their own answer to this question. My best attempt at an answer is probably found in the way societies structure themselves. See my comments in "The Asian mind and the Western mind" thread. If you are Asian, you may have some helpful comments from within your own socially-developed understandings that help us with this. Nee & Lee came from a culture that said, "Never question authority." See Nee's writings to the Chinese saints vis-a-vis the newly victorious Communists in the early 1950s. Strict obedience to the state was a given.

Today, of course, absolute submission is dressed up in spiritual garb: "the ministry of the age" and "the Lord's present testimony" and "the oneness of the Body of Christ". But in reality it means one thing: I am the Boss. It is an unquestioned and unchallenged statement, and because it's unquestioned it remains firmly in place. Its very survival depends on its not being questioned. As soon as you begin to critically poke at the underlying assumptions it collapses fairly quickly.

Remember, you didn't go through what you went through, for nothing. God is a businessman, who wants to use your experiences to help others. God has an investment in you. So your journey is not a selfish one, but it is tied up, somehow, with the journeys of many others. Trust God and continue your journey. You are not alone.

If I have learned anything, it is that I am unqualified to serve God. So is your friend "J". Everyone is partly compromised, including Witness Lee. Only Jesus can serve God. So take your eyes off of "J", off of your situation, off of the church as you understand it, off of your history. Watch Jesus. Watch Him carefully.

When Jesus said, "I am the way", He was serious: He is the way. Let go of everything else.

The more I read your posts, the more I feel that you and brother "J" are much alike in God's life, always willing to help the weak ones like me. Indeed, I am the Asian Mind (haven't read your article yet, will soon) and English is my second language. In a broader sense, it is individualism (western) vs. collectivism (eastern). I remember, my American advisor once asked me a question I'd never forget: "you used "we" quite a bit in your research paper, not "I""? Then, I realized the concept is somehow born to me since I grew up in an eastern environment. So there is the "blended" and "corporate" concept because voting is not allowed. That might also explain a bit why Witness Lee's teaching is quite "followed" by Chinese and Taiwanese. Of course, ethnic factor plays a role too. My friend "J" is a 100% white male, though, a great servant of God. He is probably the only reason I still not renounce my local church affiliation openly, though I don't meet with them anymore. Yes, brother Aron, I will watch Jesus, watch Him carefully, and knowing Him is my way.

[UntoHim]

Hey "Unregistered", when you get a chance, could you please send a request along with a desired UserName to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com. When you do this your posts will not have to go through the moderation que and will appear on the forum right away. Also you will have the added benefit of access to the Private Message system.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

This reminds me of the HWFMR outlines, they're full of "we need to" and "we must" and "we should" and "we have to". All showing deep-seated dissatisfaction, being manifested through a ministry of need. The need for power masks insecurity.

So very TRUE.... Controlling people are insecure. They mask it behind their need to control. Some people are secure being controlled too. Strange and odd bedfellows.. But the most exact example of this 'spirit' is Jezebel and Ahab. Ahab was weak and insecure. Jezebel, evil and controlling. But Ahab listened to her every word.

AND...while Jezebel was female and Ahab male... it works both ways... That evil spirit doesn't give a hoot about gender. The Roman Catholic church is very controlling and if indeed it is represented by Thyatira..then GOD compares the RCC to Jezebel. Pope..and (Jesuits control the Vatican)...and the RCC organization is made up by non married men... Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, priests...

In the case of the LSM... women were/are allowed to 'testify' or what is now called I believe 'prophesy' but they will never be allowed to be blended leaders.

Not that it matters because all religious systems are controlled by Jezebel.

The Bride is not part of a religious system. There might be Bridal people in religious systems but deep down they are following the Spirit until He calls them out.

More and more people are leaving the organized religious system be it Catholic, 'protestant' or LSM.
Showers of Blessings !!!!!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The more I read your posts, the more I feel that you and brother "J" are much alike in God's life, always willing to help the weak ones like me. Indeed, I am the Asian Mind (haven't read your article yet, will soon) and English is my second language. In a broader sense, it is individualism (western) vs. collectivism (eastern). I remember, my American advisor once asked me a question I'd never forget: "you used "we" quite a bit in your research paper, not "I""? Then, I realized the concept is somehow born to me since I grew up in an eastern environment. So there is the "blended" and "corporate" concept because voting is not allowed. That might also explain a bit why Witness Lee's teaching is quite "followed" by Chinese and Taiwanese. Of course, ethnic factor plays a role too. My friend "J" is a 100% white male, though, a great servant of God. He is probably the only reason I still not renounce my local church affiliation openly, though I don't meet with them anymore. Yes, brother Aron, I will watch Jesus, watch Him carefully, and knowing Him is my way.

Thanks for mentioning the individualism vs collectivism observation ! Many books have been written about collectivism..and movies too... 1984, Animal Farm, the Matrix and others.

never even considered that aspect of the LC. Lee and maybe Nee confused the unity of the Spirit with collectivism. Never even saw it coming. But it all makes sense now.

Also...ask the Holy Spirit to help you get to know Lord Jesus in a deeper way..that you may enter into a deeper relationship with HIM...trusting HIM, depending on HIM...not so much on people's thoughts. Fellowship and Insight from others is wonderful until we rely on them and not on the HOLY Spirit's guidance.

Showers of God's LOVE and Blessings in abundance to you,
Carol

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Indeed, I need to come to God and pray to Him, knowing that He loves me dearly. Semi-mandatory speaking in the meeting really shuts me off completely. It is probably my own problem. However, I quite like some pastors' talks about God's love on the youtube. I wish that someday this website can add on some video/audio messages. I'd love to hear brother Aron's talks about how God loves all of us and our Jesus is the way in our daily life.

Hee..hee Aron ! Make a you tube for everyone!!! Trust the Holy Spirit to guide and anoint you !!!!!!!!!

[Freedom]

During the "prophesying" time, I rarely pay attention to what's going on. I also don't participate ever. Somehow I have been able to get away with it for some time now.

The point was brought up that the HWFMR is very "needy". I can attest to that. In fact, most of the sharing I hear on it is all about how lacking a person is or how many problems they have. It gets really old really fast.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be concerned with everyone's needs, but all too often in the LC we hear about everyone's needs and shortcomings and there is no way forward.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Freedom

During the "prophesying" time, I rarely pay attention to what's going on. I also don't participate ever. Somehow I have been able to get away with it for some time now.

The point was brought up that the HWFMR is very "needy". I can attest to that. In fact, most of the sharing I hear on it is all about how lacking a person is or how many problems they have. It gets really old really fast.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be concerned with everyone's needs, but all too often in the LC we hear about everyone's needs and shortcomings and there is no way forward.

Well..that explains why the couple of people I stayed in touch with from the Lc were abnormally and unbearably needy! We all have our UPS and downs and while we need friends we should rely on our Savior first and foremost!

[Eph]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hee..hee Aron ! Make a you tube for everyone!!! Trust the Holy Spirit to guide and anoint you !!!!!!!!!

Yes, please, Aron. I am sincere as well as Carol. Just by knowing a little about how God loves me through His only Son helps someone like me. I don't have the gift to speak about Him publicly, but I do believe some of you on the forum have a gift to share with many of us about how God loves us in our daily life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Eph

Yes, please, Aron. I am sincere as well as Carol. Just by knowing a little about how God loves me through His only Son helps someone like me. I don't have the gift to speak about Him publicly, but I do believe some of you on the forum have a gift to share with many of us about how God loves us in our daily life.

Thank you for the invitation but I must demur*. I'm not qualified to give lessons. Besides, this is the internet, a virtual world, so I don't really buy deeply into it. I just post here occasionally because I like to write; I don't want to become a preacher who has to churn our a sermon every Sunday morning. But I will leave you with a couple of ideas to consider.

1. What you do to others, God will do to you. Believe me, how you treat "the least of these my brothers" is how God will treat you. Over and over this message is given in the gospels. The parables say the same thing, 15 different ways. Even the so-called "Lord's prayer" has this formula, with commentary even (!).

"Forgive us, even as we forgive others". What you do to others is what God will do to you.

In the LSM system, they will give a college Freshman a ride to the airport at 2 am because they expect a return on their investment. But an old lady? "Don't waste your time" is the FTTA directive. Instead, "Go after the good building material." But the Lord Jesus said to invite those who have no means to repay you. The LSM system only wants to "invest" in those who promise them a good return.

If you feel poor, weak, sick, or lost, think about this: there is someone near you even poorer, sicker, weaker, and more lost than you are. Tell them God loves them. Tell them about Jesus who came here because their Father in heaven loves them, and wants them to come home. Tell them, because it is true. And as you begin to help others, God will begin to help you. If you want to be blessed, then figure out how to be a blessing to others; believe me, God is watching you, and waiting for you to take a few small steps of faith. If "Help me" is your only prayer, God can't do much. If you pray, "God, use me to help others" you will be blessed beyond your capacity, beyond what you could possibly imagine.

2. DO NOT MAKE PLANS. I cannot overstress this. Do not tell the Holy Spirit what it should do, or how and when it should do it. Only the Father's will is done on earth, as it is in heaven. The Father knows everything. The Holy Spirit will never obey you; it only obeys the Father. You and I know nothing. All we are supposed to know is A) repent, and B) believe into the Lord Jesus Christ**. This is the path of salvation. Don't add your ideas to the pathway. They will perish and you will suffer loss.

I would remind you that 74 people went up onto the holy mountain, and saw God, and ate and drank, and God did not strike them. God invited them up there for lunch. They saw the pavement of sapphire. They saw the seven spirits burning before the throne.***

But only 72 made it down. Two of them made plans, and lit a fire. Bad move. Only seven flames are permitted to burn before the throne, not eight. The scriptural record then says "fire came out from before the throne and consumed them". Those seven flames are very jealous. Don't try to add another, of your own making. They are like the flaming swords in Genesis, turning each way; they will never let you get back to the Father. Only Jesus is qualified to walk among the seven golden lampstands. Everyone else will be consumed. Don't try it. Just watch Jesus. Watch Him carefully. He shows us the way.

Just watch Jesus. Never take your eyes off of Him. Then you will have a very rich entrance into the kingdom. Peter told us this, and Peter was a big failure, like you and me. So be encouraged, and press on. Don't ever give up. Those who endure to the end will be saved. We have the promise. Believe it and keep going.


*Demur = show reluctance

** The disciples asked, "Lord, what work should we do, that we may work the works of God?" The Lord Jesus replied, "Believe into Him whom God has sent".

***So I surmise, as Moses apparently built the "Menorah" according to what he saw on the mountain. See John's commentary in the book of Revelation

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

"Forgive us, even as we forgive others". What you do to others is what God will do to you.

Reminds me of the topic at hand between me and a friend of mine: FORGIVENESS AND MERCY. We had a great conversation on those two words: Forgiveness and Mercy. Forgive as God has forgiven us. Extend Mercy as GOD has given us Mercy.

If you feel poor, weak, sick, or lost, think about this: there is someone near you even poorer, sicker, weaker, and more lost than you are. Tell them God loves them.

Tell yourself that too ! Start Thanking God for loving you, for having mercy on you, for forgiving you. Thank Him for the beautiful day, for making you smile. The more you thank Him, the more He will show you how blessed you are. As you feel your spirit come alive, Praise Him for His Goodness.
Thanksgiving, Praise and Worship are essential keys that will 'resurrect' you. Then people will say "Wow! Look what great things GOD has done for you!" The Great things are the LIGHT, the LOVE, the JOY of the Lord in you. Let not your heart be troubled. Believe that Jesus came that you would have Life and have it more abundantly until it overflows...it isn't only ETERNAL Life...but an Abundant Life..spiritual, emotional..physical..and even financial on this earth while we await to hear the Shout, the Voice of the Archangel and the TRUMPET of GOD.

I speak from experience.

If you want to be blessed, then figure out how to be a blessing to others; believe me, God is watching you, and waiting for you to take a few small steps of faith. If "Help me" is your only prayer, God can't do much. If you pray, "God, use me to help others" you will be blessed beyond your capacity, beyond what you could possibly imagine.

YES!! READ AND SPEAK FAITH (HEBREWS 11)

Do not tell the Holy Spirit what it should do, or how and when it should do it.

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT AN IT. HE IS A REAL PERSON. A PERSON CANNOT GRIEVE AN 'IT'. BUT A PERSON CAN GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. WE ARE COMMANDED NOT TO GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.

My story on talking to the Holy Spirit: In the early days of my time in the LC..we sang about the "Life Giving Spirit in us". But we chanted "O LORD JESUS". As far back as I could remember...even before my commitment to the Lord, I loved Jesus. But as I drifted away from the LORD, He became a distant memory. One day I heard a still small VOICE tell me "call on JESUS".

While I didn't know it was Satan who didn't want me to call on the NAME OF MY SAVIOR, I didn't want to go through a 'middleman' to get to ALMIGHTY GOD.

That VOICE that kept telling me to say 'JESUS' was GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. He was leading me to Lord and King Jesus.

So... soon I get really hammered and saved in the LC during the 70s.. I learned I had a spirit, soul and body. That my spirit was different from my soul. Fine and dandy..but I did not know the difference...did any of us??

Anyway...we know the LC story 'O LORD JESUS' until it became an empty and meaningless mantra.

Fast forward after leaving the LC, I continued to pray with a pure heart.. Lord Jesus,__________. My prayer life was always directed to Lord Jesus. Not only because that is how I was taught to pray in the LC but because that STILL SMALL VOICE (Holy Spirit) told me to call on the NAME OF JESUS.

Fast forward even more.... I begin attending church... just to get the LC memory and junk out of my head. While they did pray in the Name of Jesus and now and then actually addressed "Lord Jesus", most of the time they addressed the Father and Holy Spirit.

It troubled me. I did not understand as I knew Jesus said no man can come to the Father but by Him. I also knew FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT was living in me. Now and then I would pray "Our Father Who are in Heaven..."
So I addressed Father God. But I never EVER addressed God the Holy Spirit.

I never spoke directly to Holy Spirit God. I began to learn more about the Function of The Holy Spirit.. GOD IS SPIRIT (HOLY SPIRIT) AND They that worship HIM (GOD) must WORSHIP HIM in S/spirit and Truth. Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life. He is also SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SPIRIT OF JESUS AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD THE FATHER. HE IS THE VOICE THAT LEADS US IN ALL TRUTH.

Anyway......... one evening, I began to speak to God as HOLY SPIRIT. I felt like I did when I first got saved and began talking to Jesus. "Holy Spirit' I said, "I know You are GOD but I have never addressed You. I don't know what I am supposed to say to You. I don't know YOU. I know the Lord Jesus and am acquainted with Father God but not YOU Holy Spirit." And thus my journey began. I feel complete or almost complete knowing the Trinity intimately. I am still working on getting to know Father GOD. I know that by knowing the Son and the Holy Spirit, I KNOW FATHER GOD. But I don't address Him directly as much. I should...and am working on getting to know Him more intimately. Just remember. Holy Spirit IS GOD...NOT an it.

I would remind you that 74 people went up onto the holy mountain, and saw God, and ate and drank, and God did not strike them. God invited them up there for lunch. They saw the pavement of sapphire. They saw the seven spirits burning before the throne.***

But only 72 made it down. Two of them made plans, and lit a fire. Bad move. Only seven flames are permitted to burn before the throne, not eight. The scriptural record then says "fire came out from before the throne and consumed them". Those seven flames are very jealous. Don't try to add another, of your own making. They are like the flaming swords in Genesis, turning each way; they will never let you get back to the Father. Only Jesus is qualified to walk among the seven golden lampstands. Everyone else will be consumed. Don't try it. Just watch Jesus. Watch Him carefully. He shows us the way.

Just watch Jesus. Never take your eyes off of Him.

LOVE YOUR COMMENTARY ARON!!! WOWSEE !! WOWSEE! THANK YOU!

LOVE YA!
Carol

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Start Thanking God for loving you, for having mercy on you, for forgiving you. Thank Him for the beautiful day, for making you smile.

And thank Him for CountMeWorthy on LCD.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Do not tell the Holy Spirit what it should do, or how and when it should do it.

Originally Posted by CMW

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT AN IT. HE IS A REAL PERSON.

We crack me up (which is a good thing, perchance), when we attribute human characteristics and notions to God and the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is more than a male, it, or person, like as we know and understand these terms, this side of the supernatural. Try as we may the Spirit is not going to make a warm spot on our sofa so we can talk to it like we do anybody else.

The Holy Spirit is so glorious that It's an It to far beyond our capability to understand any which it of It.

But I understand a knee-jerk reflex at calling It - the Spirit - an It. However the scripture is not so uptight about It ... Loosen up a little sis ...:

Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

And all my "its" and "Its" are puns, I think.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Eph

Yes, please, Aron. I am sincere as well as Carol. Just by knowing a little about how God loves me through His only Son helps someone like me. I don't have the gift to speak about Him publicly, but I do believe some of you on the forum have a gift to share with many of us about how God loves us in our daily life.

But then aron will no longer be anon.

[Eph]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But then aron will no longer be anon.

I hear you, Ohio

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

We crack me up (which is a good thing, perchance), when we attribute human characteristics and notions to God and the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is more than a male, it, or person, like as we know and understand these terms, this side of the supernatural. Try as we may the Spirit is not going to make a warm spot on our sofa so we can talk to it like we do anybody else.

The Holy Spirit is so glorious that It's an It to far beyond our capability to understand any which it of It.

But I understand a knee-jerk reflex at calling It - the Spirit - an It. However the scripture is not so uptight about It ... Loosen up a little sis ...:

Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

And all my "its" and "Its" are puns, I think.

hee..hee that's our Harold for ya !!!

.... OK... so if we want to avoid all technicality....let's start with the fact Mr KJ didn't exactly translate the Words of God precisely.... so if you want to call the HS an it, sure..you can ... ME...I prefer not to address HIM as an it. But Christ IS OUR SOLID ROCK. A ROCK. A FORTRESS, A HIGH TOWER. ALL ITS. I actually stand corrected by golly!!


Still God is a PERSON. God is Spirit.. so HE/SHE is the Person I talk to and talks back to me.

So you noticed I wrote He/SHE huh? hee hee... Holy Spirit is most likely the Female part of God. Not to worry... I ain't getting all femma nazi on y'all fogies ! (most of us are on this forum are all fogies now...

Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
At the head of the noisy streets She cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city She utters Her sayings:
Proverbs 1:20:21

You know what's really funny ?? Sometimes the HOLY SPIRIT ACTUALLY 'YELLS' AT ME... to get my attention. If I ignore His still small Voice, She will SCREAM !!!!!!!! I ususally end up responding with: 'OH! ok Holy Spirit... Got it!'

Now... Mr Lee went made a big hoopla on the '7 fold intensified Spirit'...and i bet he didn't even know what/Who they were! If he did.. he didn't emphasize them and He didn't know HER. AND THE LSM sheeple follow suit.

Wisdom is one of the 7 spirits of God right?

Isaiah 11:2 describes the 7 Spirits of God:
“The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him —
the Spirit of Wisdom and of Understanding,
the Spirit of Counsel and of Power, the Spirit of Knowledge and of the Fear (Respect imho) of the LORD.”

This could possibly explain the seven Spirits of God:
(1) Spirit of the LORD,
(2) Spirit of Wisdom,
(3) Spirit of Understanding,
(4) Spirit of Counsel,
(5) Spirit of Power,
(6) Spirit of Knowledge,
(7) Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

Love YA HAROLD !
Carol

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Still God is a PERSON. God is Spirit.. so HE/SHE is the Person I talk to and talks back to me.

I don't think I could make it without my invisible Friend. He's my "Morning Revival," not written on paper. And He/She/It speaks to me. A few years ago, for example, He shouted "don't stick your fingers into the saw blade." But I was too slow to listen. That'll learn me to be quick to listen to Him.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But then aron will no longer be anon.

I would put it another way: there is no aron, no Ohio, no Witness Lee, and no Church of Witness Lee (aka the Lord's Recovery, the Local Church, the Living Stream Ministry, Christians on Campus, or any of a dozen or twenty names that they hide behind).

There is only God, and God's Christ, Jesus, who is the one and only way to the Father. Nothing else exists.

The Local Church has been distracted by Other Things, like "the ground" and "the ministry" and "the building" and "God's Oracle", etc.

Here, I am nobody and nothing and I prefer to keep it that way. The more we consider aron, or anything or anyone else for that matter, the more we risk distraction, confusion, and despair. Don't bother. Jesus is the way home to the Father. The Holy Spirit will never come to you in any other name.

And when you touch the Holy Spirit, you touch the flame burning before the throne. It is quite incredible. What should I give that up for?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

I would put it another way: there is no aron, no Ohio, no Witness Lee, and no Church of Witness Lee (aka the Lord's Recovery, the Local Church, the Living Stream Ministry, Christians on Campus, or any of a dozen or twenty names that they hide behind).

There is only God, and God's Christ, Jesus, who is the one and only way to the Father. Nothing else exists.

The Local Church has been distracted by Other Things, like "the ground" and "the ministry" and "the building" and "God's Oracle", etc.

Here, I am nobody and nothing and I prefer to keep it that way. The more we consider aron, or anything or anyone else for that matter, the more we risk distraction, confusion, and despair. Don't bother. Jesus is the way home to the Father. The Holy Spirit will never come to you in any other name.

And when you touch the Holy Spirit, you touch the flame burning before the throne. It is quite incredible. What should I give that up for?

BRAVO !! BRAVO !!

LOVE YA ARON!