Reece's two cents...

[cityonahill]

Hey everyone,

For starters, thanks untohim for starting this cool section. I for one think it's great! I have to admit, many of my "threads" were more of a blog than a discussion anyway and didn't quite fit.(and still don't!) Unlike many of you, my rants are from the perspective of a frustrated "outsider" who wants his relative back! At any rate, I hope I've learned to cool it abit and try to listen instead of always sounding off about anything and everything that I may disagree with. I have to admit...Many times, my issues are not specifically with the LC but with reformed theology in general which of course is a bigger fish to fry and includes many of those who call themselves "evangelical."

YP called me out on this regarding my "tripartite" man critique among other things I tend to disagree with that has less to do with Lee and more to do with reformed fundamentalist theology in general. (Lee fits into this category as well generally speaking...)

I never really gave anyone my testimony or background in the intro so I guess I can share where I'm coming from with my beliefs:

1)I was raised with armenian views and my dad is a full time pastor...I was influenced by John Wesley and Pentecostal teachings...

2) Moved to australia and study theology at an Assembly of God university...

3) Have realized alot in last few years, months, and even days and I reject both the armenian and calvinist views for the most part when it comes to grace, faith, and God's salvation...

4) The threads on "heaven and hell" have had a profound impact on my preconcieved beliefs and have led to me studying this issue at length and totally changing my views of the after-life!

Anyway, just wanted to share...thanks also to aron for the discussions about judgment and salvation...it's really caused me to dig deeper!

[cityonahill]

Having said that...

Here are some random quotes I like from an author I've been getting into lately:

"That is why faith, wherever it develops into hope, causes not rest, but unrest, not patience but impatience. It does not calm the unquiet heart, but is itself this unquiet heart in man. Those who hope in Christ can no longer put up with reality as it is, but begin to suffer under it, to contradict it...the goad of the promised future stabs inexorably into the flesh of every unfulfilled present...that we do not reconcile ourselves [with things as they are], that there is no pleasant harmony between us and reality, is due to our unquenchable hope."
- Jurgen Moltmann, Theology of Hope, pg. 21

"If faith thus depends on hope for its life, then the sin of unbelief is manifestly grounded in hopelessness. To be sure it is usually said that sin in its original form is man’s wanting to be as God. But that is only one side of sin. The other side of such pride is hopelessness, resignation, inertia and melancholy….Temptation then consists not so much in the titanic desire to be as God, but in weakness, timidity, weariness, not wanting to be what God requires of us."
-Jurgen Moltmann, Theology of Hope

If anyone is unaware of Moltmann's story, he was a German Nazi who came to Christ in a POW camp in Scotland after WW2...many of his writings really strike a chord with me...

Some label him as a heretic but what else is new? His book "the way of Jesus Christ" was awesome!

[aron]

Originally Posted by cityonahill

I hope I've learned to cool it abit and try to listen instead of always sounding off about anything and everything that I may disagree with. I have to admit...Many times, my issues are not specifically with the LC but with reformed theology in general which of course is a bigger fish to fry and includes many of those who call themselves "evangelical."

Have realized alot in last few years, months, and even days and I reject both the armenian and calvinist views for the most part when it comes to grace, faith, and God's salvation...

The threads on "heaven and hell" have had a profound impact on my preconcieved beliefs and have led to me studying this issue at length and totally changing my views of the after-life!

Anyway, just wanted to share...thanks also to aron for the discussions about judgment and salvation...it's really caused me to dig deeper!

Your testimony of learning to listen to others instead of just waiting to impose your views is heartening. In an environment which can too often be populated by adversarial exchanges, or people "talking past each other", it's always encouraging to see demonstrations of actual learning.

I am likewise heartened by your recognition that perhaps the calvinist/arminian debate doesn't have to force us into an either/or proposition. Both views have solid basis in the God's Word, and are worth careful consideration, but perhaps are not "the" interpretation of scripture.

I profited likewise from the exchanges, and was grateful for them. It's easy to construct something, over time, in your mind, and then use this conceptual construction to filter the Bible whenever you come to it to read. You automatically "highlight" certain verses which are in line with your construction, and ignore, overlook, or minimize other verses and sections which don't match it as well.

But then when you share your ideational construct with others, and they go, "Not so fast. What about this, or that?", and you have to stop and reassess with the eyes of others, it is a tremendous help.

2 points in closing: 1) I suspect one of the negatives of having power for Lee (being the 'acting god', and all) was that he was unable to receive this kind of help from others. His ideational construction was supposedly unassailable, and though it had some good points (I believe), it was untouchable and thus the errors were never addressed. And we all know what happens with a little leaven...

2) My beef with the whole system eventually became not so much with its errors (we all have errors, to some degree), but that for the above reason it became largely a dead end for me, and I realized I had to look elsewhere for further uncovering of the truth in God's Word. I also want to dig deeper, and hopefully my sharing was not in the "I am right" vein (though I occasionally go there - if not careful it becomes my 'default' mode), but rather the sharing of "There are other aspects here perhaps worth considering".

I appreciated the fellowship as well. Peace to you, and grace

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by cityonahill

"To be sure it is usually said that sin in its original form is man’s wanting to be as God. But that is only one side of sin. The other side of such pride is hopelessness, resignation, inertia and melancholy…. Temptation then consists (of) not so much in the titanic desire to be as God, but in weakness, timidity, weariness, not wanting to be what God requires of us."
-Jurgen Moltmann, Theology of Hope

That is a profound insight, and I am glad you shared it.