Forgiving Witness Lee

[bearbear]

Hi All,

I haven't posted here in a while, but I think the Lord was bugging me to share this.

Around the time I left LC, my spiritual condition was pretty wretched. Many brothers and sisters at our LC, including elders and their wives rather than practicing forgiveness, secretly harbored grudges and bitterness towards other saints. I guess we lived in a culture where forgiveness was never required and it rubbed off on me as well. I'm sure many can relate.

I remember when I used to lurk on this board and read reports about Witness Lee and all the ugly things that happened with PL and TL and DayStar and just get so angry. I held a lot of bitterness against WL for leading my so many astray, especially those in my family.

I praise God my wife and I were able to find a healthy church with brothers and sisters who practiced 'doing the Word and not just hearing the Word' (James 1:22). Seeing how they practiced forgiveness, even against people who had done seemingly unforgivable things to them, and the resulting fruit it bore in their lives was inspirational-- and it gave us hope that it was possible to forgive. Since then we've been able to, bit by bit forgive everyone in our lives that had wronged us.. including Witness Lee.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:12

What helped me was realizing no matter how much wrong WL did, our war is not against him or his legacy, but against the spiritual forces under Satan that tempted WL and led him astray.

In addition, as christians, we have no choice but to forgive others. We all know what Jesus said in Matthew 6:12.

"but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

Furthermore, I personally have renounced WL and WN's eternal security (OSAS) teaching (even wrote a blog post here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...s-true-or.html), so I really don't have a choice but to forgive It's a scary thing not to have your sins forgiven after all, without forgiveness there is no atonement!

So I just want to open this up to the rest of you. Have you forgiven WL? Have many others struggled with forgiveness as well as me?

[Cal]

Thanks for the post, bearbear. We appreciate it.

Each of us personally has to come to grips with what forgiveness means in the case of Witness Lee. Really, I don't think about it much because to me it isn't personal. I never really knew the man. At the same time I've had to figure out how I feel about things and to make sure vengeance isn't my motive.

To me it's about a historic public figure whose legacy is doing damage to the church and God's people. The purpose of the board is to help people with separating themselves from his influence. It isn't about getting even with him or anything like that. At the same time, forgiveness is important. Holding a grudge is like drinking poison to try to kill the other person.

[UntoHim]

Thanks bearbear for this post.

Is that you in the first video? If so, you definitely have a call upon your life to be a preacher. Though I don't agree with everything you have to say regarding the "once saved always saved" controversy, you do make some very strong argument against this kind of thinking/teaching in the Church.

Please stick around and participate!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by bearbear

So I just want to open this up to the rest of you. Have you forgiven WL? Have many others struggled with forgiveness as well as me?

I had very little contact with WL. I lived in Irving briefly while WL lived in his apartment there and I lived in Taipei while he lived there during the FTTT. Even so I only met him a couple of times and have no personal issue with him.

My interest is in what happened to the LRC and how did it go sour? Ps 11:3 "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?"

To me this forum is similar to a T cell in the body. We learn about this pathogen so that the next time it invades the Body we can identify it and deal with it immediately. Ps 10:7 "His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity. 10:8 He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor." My burden is not for WL but for the innocent and poor who are being preyed on.

I also feel that I have a responsibility to deal with the sins of the LRC since I was very active in preaching the gospel and leading many into the LRC. "Ps 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

So I just want to open this up to the rest of you. Have you forgiven WL? Have many others struggled with forgiveness as well as me?

Well bearbear ... It took me a long time to realize that it was actually Witness Lee who was the source of the downfall in the Recovery. For decades I had been instructed to believe that Lee was some pure, upright, and ultra-mature minister who had constantly been surrounded by a bunch of ambitious screwups, who continually ruined every direct move of the Lord amongst us. Coming to this forum helped me to realize that, contrary to my long-term indoctrination in the LC's, Witness Lee (and, of course, Titus Chu, his true son in the faith) were not the only spiritual visionaries on the planet able to raise up churches to bring the Lord back. Rather the facts of history presented in this forum have served to put these two into perspective. Yes they were ministers, much gifted by the Lord, but they have also hurt and deceived many of the Lord's precious children.

These saints who have left the recovery with enormous hurt and guilt, need to be delivered, so that they can properly transition into post-LRC Christian life. It's kind of like an abused child who lives his life with the guilt and shame that his parents' divorce was all his fault. Before healing can come to him, he needs to learn that he did nothing wrong growing up in that abusive environment, and it was the father who should bear the guilt. After much learning, the child can be healed and delivered from the deleterious effects of his childhood, and begin to make the decision to forgive his parent, as bearbear has recommended.

For LC leaders like WL and TC, as I was so many times instructed, to demand that their followers, should they ever decide to leave, "depart quietly as a gentleman," is extremely self-serving. It prevents their own healthy progress in the faith, and it prevents their own brothers and sisters in Christ from knowing their journey outside of the Recovery. Legitimate complaints must be addressed. They should not be buried forever so that LC leaders can continue their abuses.

[bearbear]

Thank you for your testimonies. Indeed I believe it is God's work to expose false teaching and false teachers and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, God even commends the church in Ephesus in Rev. 2 for calling out the false apostles "I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false."

I guess I just wanted to share some of my experience in healing and honestly I was a bit worried for the sake of the souls of some here in case there is secret bitterness that is being harbored.

Many times in the past I had to stop myself and repent for getting to riled about error in the LRC system when talking to my family. I know there can be a fine line that is easily crossed between simply 'judging' WL and saying things for the sake of helping others when discussing WL's ministry.

That said, I want to share some more verses that I think the Lord was leading me to share and have greatly helped me.

"Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves." - Matthew 10:16

"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." - Romans 12:20

"Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted." - Galatians 6:1

"so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." - Ephesians 5:27

What comforts me is that God is aware of all the injustice that happened, in fact there's probably way more that went on than is contained in this forum-- so Jesus may have even stronger feelings than us about what happened. So I can trust God in his judgement which is to come because He is a just judge. The saddest thing that could happen is allowing the iniquity of the LRC system to spill over to those of us who try to expose the system to the brothers and sisters it victimizes.

I always have to remind myself to be as innocent as a dove, and to check if my heart is right whenever the topic of LC comes up in my family so I can give my viewpoint from a perspective of love and not anger or any malice.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I always have to remind myself to be as innocent as a dove, and to check if my heart is right whenever the topic of LC comes up in my family so I can give my viewpoint from a perspective of love and not anger or any malice.

Thanks bearbear, I really appreciate your posts here.

Permit me to give a little testimony from my own journey. Since I left in 2005 in such a confused quandary, the Lord ministered to me shortly afterwards while visiting a nearby community church while they broke bread. The pastor led the congregation in prayer to prepare our hearts to receive the emblems by forgiving and releasing any who had "hurt, wounded, or disappointed us." That short prayer was so timely, beneficial, and educational for me personally. It was not about this great "body in the universe and we're a part of it," but me and Jesus and the ones I was related to. That's the real oneness God desires.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These saints who have left the recovery with enormous hurt and guilt, need to be delivered, so that they can properly transition into post-LRC Christian life. It's kind of like an abused child who lives his life with the guilt and shame that his parents' divorce was all his fault. Before healing can come to him, he needs to learn that he did nothing wrong growing up in that abusive environment, and it was the father who should bear the guilt. After much learning, the child can be healed and delivered from the deleterious effects of his childhood, and begin to make the decision to forgive his parent, as bearbear has recommended.

Yes and amen!!

Another analogy might be the guilt or confusion felt by woman who was date-raped by a "friend."

The point is there is a tendency to blame oneself for these things, when you were really just minding your own business and got taken advantage of.

[countmeworthy]

I also want to add my .10 to the thread by saying: I do not think most of us have a problem with forgiving WL. He personally did nothing to me.

His organization however induced much heartache, confusion, fear, false adulation and some false teaching thrown in for the purpose of controlling the flock.

We are specifically told in John 10:10 the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy.

What started off as a safe and blessed haven for many of us turned into a prison of sorts. We opened the door to the thief. He came in and stole our joy, our hearts, our minds. The thief was not Lee. We all know the thief is Satan. He is the master of religious organizations. He twists the Word of God and we see this time and time again in the Scriptures.

I am forever grateful for being delivered from tobacco, pot and cussing in my early 20s when I became born again through the power of the Holy Spirit and the Living Word working through my fellow brethren in Christ who were in the LC.

I was set free and fell in love with Christ "and the church" because of our communion with God and with one another. I truly learned to speak and pray the Word of God during my time there. I did 'see' the church with my spiritual eyes. I knew there were a lot of fakey people there too which is why I did not like reeling people into the 'church'. For me personally, it was there I became rooted and grounded in the Word.

Sadly had I remained there, I would have suffocated and turned into a robot.

I was never aware of Daystar or other stuff behind the scenes until I read it here in the forum. For all the hoopla made we were so different from "Christianity" because our vision was "Christ and the church", the LC was not so different was it? Why was the LC set up like a secular business corporation with a board of directors, a President, paid staff etc....?

When we studied church history in the scriptures and through historical documents, there were no board of directors. Lee never mentioned having a board of directors. I know some factions of Christianity will say the apostles were the 'board of directors' to justify their organization.

We were told we were not part of Christianity!

Yet we had buildings the church leaders under Lee purchased for the purpose of gathering the congregation together just like the denominations do.

As long as we were focused on the Word of God, it was not important to me that we met in buildings. I liked the genuine popcorn testimonies too. I learned a lot because I was seeking the Way, the Truth and the LIFE in Christ Jesus as were most of us here.

Bearbear, this forum does a very good job of exposing the dirty laundry in hopes that those stuck in the clenches of the LRC will take off their rose colored glasses.

But often times, people here forget imho, to point people to Christ Jesus. He is the Answer. He always has been, always will be!

Blessings and thanks for sharing your heartfelt thoughts.

Carol Garza

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I was never aware of Daystar or other stuff behind the scenes until I read it here in the forum. For all the hoopla made we were so different from "Christianity" because our vision was "Christ and the church", the LC was not so different was it? Why was the LC set up like a secular business corporation with a board of directors, a President, paid staff etc....?

Bearbear, this forum does a very good job of exposing the dirty laundry in hopes that those stuck in the clenches of the LRC will take off their rose colored glasses.

But often times, people here forget imho, to point people to Christ Jesus. He is the Answer. He always has been, always will be!

Amen CMW. I had heard of Daystar among PL's improprieties before any existence of internet forums such as this. In the 90's I felt as if I was the only one bothered by it. If you go to a responsible brother about it, you'll get told "it's just rumors" or one I find exasperating, "perceived wrongdoings". As far as Witness Lee goes I did not know him so he did not offend me personally. Still there is a spiritual dynamic that exists between Mark 11:25, Matthew 18:15-17, Exodus 20:16, 23:1, for starters in regard to the Recovery's history in relationship to every one of us.

Several things that have contributed directly to my abstinence from the local churches are:
1. How brothers and sisters who have left are treated verbally. i.e. no encouragement, no blessing.
2. We have had dirty laundry in regard to LC history, but no effort to repent for it. As if to say "I did not do it so I do not need to repent for it." That may be, but may times it is our silence we need to repent of. The "dirty laundry" in the recovery has been as an elephant in the living room. It's there, but most LC long-timers will rarely acknowledge it's existence.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Terry

Amen CMW. I had heard of Daystar among PL's improprieties before any existence of internet forums such as this. In the 90's I felt as if I was the only one bothered by it. If you go to a responsible brother about it, you'll get told "it's just rumors" or one I find exasperating, "perceived wrongdoings". As far as Witness Lee goes I did not know him so he did not offend me personally. Still there is a spiritual dynamic that exists between Mark 11:25, Matthew 18:15-17, Exodus 20:16, 23:1, for starters in regard to the Recovery's history in relationship to every one of us.

Several things that have contributed directly to my abstinence from the local churches are:
1. How brothers and sisters who have left are treated verbally. i.e. no encouragement, no blessing.
2. We have had dirty laundry in regard to LC history, but no effort to repent for it. As if to say "I did not do it so I do not need to repent for it." That may be, but may times it is our silence we need to repent of. The "dirty laundry" in the recovery has been as an elephant in the living room. It's there, but most LC long-timers will rarely acknowledge it's existence.

Hi Terry,
You make very valid observations.
With regards to the scriptures, most often than not, it is the 'leaders' who bring out the offenses of the sheeple. In most denominations, that I am aware of, the accountability is among the spiritual leaders.
The sheeple have no say.

For example, when a church leader sins and it is brought out in the open through the media if they are well known, it is the spiritual leaders from other branches that counsel that individual.

I am specifically thinking of a 'pastor' of a big church in Colorado who was accused of having hanky panky with a male masseuse a few years back.

He denied it vehemently. But the truth came out and he was released from his pastorship though not by his congregation to my knowledge. The pastors who were on the board of directors and others who were closely associated with him are the ones who stripped him of his 'duties'.

Fine. But again...the sheeple had no say in the matter to my knowledge whether they agreed with the decision or not.

In Lee's case, he was solely in control. No one could oust him. No one could even call him out! Somehow he managed to kick them out of the recovery OR as leaders, they resigned. The LC sheeple were told those men and women were 'poison'.

He did not publicly repent with a broken and a contrite heart (which God never despises) so neither does the LC have reason to repent.

I think as pride and arrogance infiltrated the 'glorious church life' we led, we forgot as individuals and as a church the power of repentance. Pride does that. It keeps us from repentance.

Sadder still is, this confirms how many LCrs were/are not studying the scriptures for themselves. We all got caught up in the Life Study messages, in the weekend conferences, in the trainings. Yes we read scriptures out loud together but few imho read them with prayer that the Holy Spirit would give us personal revelation & understanding. Lee had to explain everything to us because 'he was the oracle of God'.

We simply amened everything spoken to us.

Lee did not emphasize to us to search the scriptures, to study the scriptures for ourselves. He did it for us. Yet we are told in 2 Timothy 2:15 to study to show thyself approved unto God...rightly dividing the Word of God.

We could not do this without the LC approval. So we know the rest of the story.

As for the treatment of the brethren who have left and receive no encouragement, no blessing, I can tell you first hand, sometimes this is the way GOD wants it to be. He strips away the old garment as He prepares us for Newness of Life for He wants us to depend solely on HIM.

He wants us to get to KNOW HIM through His Word afresh. After all He promises to make ALL things new. And He DOES !! He wants us to seek Him in the Scriptures and to reveal Himself to us through the scriptures by His Spirit. Once we come to the point of 'brokenness' and say...it's just You and me LORD. If no one loves me, if no one cares for me, I know YOU do. YOU will never leave me or forsake me. That is YOUR promise to me and YOU are the Keeper of Your Word. You do not lie. So thank You for Loving me and taking very good care of me. Thank You for the plans you have for me to prosper and succeed, to give me a Hope and a (bright) future. ...then we truly become liberated in Christ.

Honest. This has been my experience.

Jesus told us to in Matthew 28:19 to make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

But we were stifled. We had to do it Lee's way. Of course, all denominations have spiritual leaders who send out people to disciple people and pull them into the leaders' flock. That bugs me. I heard a pastor once say, "Get to know your neighbors so you can invite them to church...this church'. I have great neighbors and every chance I get, I point them to Jesus. I do not bombard them. I just splash them with Living Water now and then.

While I do like going to church services from time to time, I do not feel comfy becoming a member of that congregation.

Good thing we know how the real story ends. The Holy city New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God adorned as a bride for her Husband.
. Christ is Victorious and because we are IN Him, we too are Victorious by the Precious Blood of Jesus.

Blessings !

Carol G

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

In Lee's case, he was solely in control. No one could oust him. No one could even call him out! Somehow he managed to kick them out of the recovery OR as leaders, they resigned. The LC sheeple were told those men and women were 'poison'.

This morning a verse from Proverbs jumped out at me ...

The fear of man brings a snare; But whoever puts his trust in the Lord shall be protected. (29.25)

Both Witness Lee and Titus Chu wielded tremendous power over their followers. Constant public excoriations served their purpose, as none would dare voice a protest to these two leaders. Both of them would regularly "flex their muscles" for no apparent reason, just to provide constant reminders to their troups. The teaching of "deputy authority" was never adequate by itself, since deep-seated fears are better learned by live performances.

The Recovery hierarchy is maintained by the "fear of man." Their semblance of oneness is perpetuated by the "fear of man." The teaching of deputy authority really serves to make the "fear of man" and the "fear of God" indistinguishable to their adherents. But what does the scripture say? "It brings a snare." Both Lee and Chu brought a snare to the Recovery by enforcing and reinforcing the "fear of man" using the teaching of deputy authority coupled with real life displays of false authority.

Those who think they are "safe" by keeping silent and submissive are not safe at all. Instead they become trapped. The fear of man entangles them. Their conscience becomes inoperative. The leader is empowered with license to abuse. The "safe" silence of his adherents enables further abuses. To speak up brings very real dangers. Apparently one is thrusting all safety to the wind, but what does the scripture say? "He who trusts in the Lord will be protected." He will be safe and uplifted by the Lord.

What a lesson this is in the Recovery. Look back at the decades of so-called storms and rebellions. When we get past the slanders and the spins of these leaders, we discover in each case it was men of God in the Recovery fearing God and not man. They refused to be be silent in the "fear of man." They spoke up in truth refusing to be ensnared. Apparently what they did was exceedingly risky, but actually they were safe, putting all their trust in the Lord.

Personally I have the highest regard for brothers like John Ingalls and John Myer who spoke the truth of God at the risk of their financial support (in other words, their monthly paycheck!) They refused to be intimidated and ensnared with the fear of man.

[ZNPaaneah]

Psalms
18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;

In the LRC experience you needed to be upright to stand against WL and his cronies in order to be merciful.

18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

There were a lot of perverse (froward) things done under the cloak of being "pure". RG and BP running from JI with their hands on their ears not wanting to hear of PL's sins comes immediately to mind.

18:27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.

The misuse of the teaching on deputy authority results in afflicting the saints. It also can be characterized as having "high looks".

18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
18:29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This morning a verse from Proverbs jumped out at me ...

The fear of man brings a snare; But whoever puts his trust in the Lord shall be protected. (29.25)

Both Witness Lee and Titus Chu wielded tremendous power over their followers. Constant public excoriations served their purpose, as none would dare voice a protest to these two leaders. Both of them would regularly "flex their muscles" for no apparent reason, just to provide constant reminders to their troups. The teaching of "deputy authority" was never adequate by itself, since deep-seated fears are better learned by live performances.

James makes it very clear that if you do teach as WL did you shall be judged by a higher standard. This is Biblical, this is as it should be, and this is a principle that WL was aware of and even taught. "Cannot my tongue discern mischievous things?" We have an obligation to discern if something within his teaching is mischievous.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This morning a verse from Proverbs jumped out at me ...

The fear of man brings a snare; But whoever puts his trust in the Lord shall be protected. (29.25)

The Recovery hierarchy is maintained by the "fear of man." Their semblance of oneness is perpetuated by the "fear of man." The teaching of deputy authority really serves to make the "fear of man" and the "fear of God" indistinguishable to their adherents. But what does the scripture say? "It brings a snare." Both Lee and Chu brought a snare to the Recovery by enforcing and reinforcing the "fear of man" using the teaching of deputy authority coupled with real life displays of false authority.

Those who think they are "safe" by keeping silent and submissive are not safe at all. Instead they become trapped. The fear of man entangles them. Their conscience becomes inoperative. The leader is empowered with license to abuse. The "safe" silence of his adherents enables further abuses. To speak up brings very real dangers. Apparently one is thrusting all safety to the wind, but what does the scripture say? "He who trusts in the Lord will be protected." He will be safe and uplifted by the Lord.

What a lesson this is in the Recovery. Look back at the decades of so-called storms and rebellions. When we get past the slanders and the spins of these leaders, we discover in each case it was men of God in the Recovery fearing God and not man. They refused to be be silent in the "fear of man." They spoke up in truth refusing to be ensnared. Apparently what they did was exceedingly risky, but actually they were safe, putting all their trust in the Lord.

Personally I have the highest regard for brothers like John Ingalls and John Myer who spoke the truth of God at the risk of their financial support (in other words, their monthly paycheck!) They refused to be intimidated and ensnared with the fear of man.

Ohio, I am in one accord what you're saying here. I would also ask, do you think God is happy with our silence when we should speak? James 4:17 says "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."

When I was meeting with the Local Churches, my silence is a sin my conscience was convicted of. Since 1990 I have been bothered by the cursing of brothers who leave when they should be blessed, but never spoke up. It's the fear of man; the fear of rejection that encourages silence. Let it be known no man was more rejected than Jesus Christ.
When brothers such as Ingalls and Myers as you've mentioned leave the LC system, as one door closes another door opens for these brothers to continue functioning as ministers of Christ.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by bearbear

So I just want to open this up to the rest of you. Have you forgiven WL? Have many others struggled with forgiveness as well as me?

As others have said it's quite hard to separate things out. And I also think those who grew up in the LC system have a different kind of experience than those who came to it later in life. If you grew up in the LC system your entire identity and social awareness during your formative years was developed within that context and most likely upon leaving your anger will be directed towards your parents with Witness Lee as a secondary target.

The hard part to discern is: did those who influenced us the most e.g. parents really believe in their heart of hearts that they were doing what they thought best at the time? Did Witness Lee for his part believe it for himself as well? In other words were their actions purposefully and willfully done with malice? Did they intend to cause damage?

I think as we get older most of us either become more bitter or more forgiving. Those who become more bitter resent what their life turned out to be compared to what it ought to be. They ruminate on how much better things would have been for them and their families absent the LC. Those who become more forgiving begin to realize who they are and accept themselves and their life for what it was and is. This includes an understanding of their own human weaknesses. Realizing their own need for mercy they tend to mete out justice with less intensity.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Ohio, I am in one accord what you're saying here. I would also ask, do you think God is happy with our silence when we should speak? When I was meeting with the Local Churches, my silence is a sin my conscience was convicted of. Since 1990 I have been bothered by the cursing of brothers who leave when they should be blessed, but never spoke up. It's the fear of man; the fear of rejection that encourages silence. Let it be known no man was more rejected than Jesus Christ.
When brothers such as Ingalls and Myers as you've mentioned leave the LC system, as one door closes another door opens for these brothers to continue functioning as ministers of Christ.

I have resolved this personally by whether others are hurt. For years I would hear that should anyone leave, they should be a "gentleman" and leave quietly without backstabbing the brothers, and what a shame it was for ones to leave and then betray those that loved him or her.

I still have the highest regard for those brothers and sisters who were or are still in the LC's. I have not spoken a thing about these precious ones. I have only addressed those leaders who have caused injury to God's children. We have no choice but to speak up on behalf of others. We may decide to "suffer in silence" concerning what we have endured, but that should not apply to what others have suffered.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have only addressed those leaders who have caused injury to God's children. We have no choice but to speak up on behalf of others. We may decide to "suffer in silence" concerning what we have endured, but that should not apply to what others have suffered.

This is the proper response to those who claim we should keep quiet. It's about defending others, not ourselves.

"...that should not apply to what others have suffered."

and, might I add, what others may suffer in the future.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We may decide to "suffer in silence" concerning what we have endured, but that should not apply to what others have suffered.

To suffer in silence I receive that phrase as to take the cross, but as to what others have suffered and are suffering a word needs to be spoken.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For years I would hear that should anyone leave, they should be a "gentleman" and leave quietly without backstabbing the brothers, and what a shame it was for ones to leave and then betray those that loved him or her.
I still have the highest regard for those brothers and sisters who were or are still in the LC's.

I have been told much the same. If you're going to leave, leave as a gentlemen. Really what this means, "give us grace as you leave". It does not mean the brother leaving as a gentleman will be given grace.
I think of Bill Freeman and John Ingalls and how they were spoken of years after leaving.
The phrase "be a gentleman and leave quietly" gets under my skin as I realize to leave as a gentleman does not mean it will be reciprocated. Resulting in practice as a double-standard. I see there's an aspect of Watchman Nee's ministry that was and maybe still is desperately and practically needed in the Recovery. Not just for new believers, but for the young people, and a reminder for the not so new believers.

"Many people think that they have the right to speak a certain way because others have spoken the same way. Today the world argues about who said what first, but the Lord is concerned about whether or not one has spoken at all. We may ask, "Since others have already said this, can I not say it as well?", but please bear in mind that we cannot render evil for evil or reviling for reviling. It is not a matter of who spoke first, but a matter of whether or not you spoke at all.

A new believer must learn to speak words of blessing from the very beginning. Do not allow reviling or cursing to come out of your mouth."

[egregious c]

I left quietly.

I knew people like Bill Freeman, John Ingals and Francis Ball. I attended numerous teachings give by WL. I saw the beginnings of Daystar, the migrations to Anaheim and Huntington Beach. I met a lot of good people who were all-in with the Church Life.

And I was for a while, too.

And on the day I left the Church I stopped thinking of myself as a Christian. What I left was no longer my concern.

I never felt the need forgive Lee, or Ingalls or Ball or any of them. They never did anything bad to me or anyone I knew. I had seen worse in Christian groups before I made it to LA. Far worse. I forgave them.

Hello, I need help.
My friend and his whole family want to start attending the recovery church. I feel is not safe... you that were there before can you help me what to say?
My email is cllanes@bsd2.org

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hello, I need help.
My friend and his whole family want to start attending the recovery church. I feel is not safe... you that were there before can you help me what to say?
My email is cllanes@bsd2.org

Depending where and whether the local administration are shepherding elders and not stewards of a system, it could be helpful. An item to keep in mind is, the Local Church (aka The Recovery) does not constitute the Body. In each city, there are a number of Christian assemblies that represent the Body of Christ meeting locally. Thus the local church is just one of many assemblies. As for you and I, we may have an opinion for our own families. As for other households, there is the need to respect the father's leading of his family.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hello, I need help.
My friend and his whole family want to start attending the recovery church. I feel is not safe... you that were there before can you help me what to say?
My email is cllanes@bsd2.org

Sure, contact your family and ask them "what is special about the Local Church?"

They will probably discuss the teaching of the ground of the church, they may mention Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. But regardless, if you tell us the response we can easily help you. As Terry said they might not give any of those responses about a pet doctrine in which case it might not be as big a concern.

If I were you I would not mention any negative comments about WL or his sons. That was a few years ago, WL is now dead and his sons are no longer involved in church affairs. As a result they will probably just see that as mud slinging.

[Lisbon]

Today in "my LC" there were new videos of the fantastic move of the LC in Europe. They say there are now eleven halls in London and of course France and Russia are prospering well.

Does anyone have other reports? Of course I'm hoping this is not so valid but I say nothing in my family. Things seem to be very glowing here in DFW.

Lisbon

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Today in "my LC" there were new videos of the fantastic move of the LC in Europe. They say there are now eleven halls in London and of course France and Russia are prospering well.

Does anyone have other reports? Of course I'm hoping this is not so valid but I say nothing in my family. Things seem to be very glowing here in DFW.

Lisbon

I heard that there was some Europe “report”, but I don’t know what it talks about. I think they might have gone over it in my LC, but if so, I missed it. In regards to the accuracy of any Europe report (or any other report for that matter), that I would take it with a grain of salt. In my opinion, these things are pure propaganda that overstate statistics. The reason I call it propaganda is that most LCers are not going to be informed enough to know what’s really going on, so they are inevitably going to believe it. Who really has the ability to verify the accuracy of these reports?

As an analogy, just recently, I went to visit the GTCA website out of curiosity. Right away I was presented with this impression of how quickly the Recovery is “spreading” all over America. They have videos and “testimonies”, which are all supposed to show the great things that are happening. Once I actually started to take a closer look, and watched their videos, it appears that what’s really going on is they get a pro-LSM couple to move to a city, get a bunch of out of town saints to travel to that city for a meeting, and then they claim there’s a church there, even though in reality it might just be a family or two living there.


I have heard these type of "reports" my whole life, and given the way the information is presented, you would think something really miraculous is happening. In the end, however, it always seems that there is nothing to show for their claims. It just turns out to be overstated statistics or whatever.

[Lisbon]

I am so happy to have read these posts on forgiveness. I'm not sure I still know what to do with it all but just that we would realize we have a problem.

LSM and previously WL had a big problem that it would appear they never realized or if they did they just swept it under the rug because of their philosophy. Shame on them but we still have to be before the Lord not as those who know that much. At best we are all pretty poor.

If your wife is having an affair over a long period of time I think another something steps in. As WL said more than once and I agree, we are all lyers in many occasions. I recently told a lie while walking in a mall and my conscience rose up and I had to deal with it. Many times I'm not that quick to deal. Had our leaders lied to us and then repented, I certainly feel we have no choice but to forgive. But when there is a pattern of lying, it's hard not to think we are in another category. I personally feel by now the leaders have dug such a deep hole that they would have no possible way to get out.

Even at the end of his life, I could not see where Paul was that forgiving of Onesiphorus for deserting him in Rome. He did say he hoped he would find mercy later on. And I don't want to just be giving us some kind of free pass but both John and Paul had some pretty harsh words against those who were havocking the church 2000 years ago.

It is certain we must not be mean which some of us have at times been. My dad used to say we can be fruit inspectors and it looks pretty plain there has been a lot of bad fruit in the house for over forty years and if the truth is ever known the time might be more like 60 years.

I personally have no burden to pray for the LC except for those I love who are still in it. After 50 to 60 years, I don't think sects ever change.

Lisbon

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

My dad used to say we can be fruit inspectors and it looks pretty plain there has been a lot of bad fruit in the house for over forty years... After 50 to 60 years, I don't think sects ever change.

I don't think spirits change. There is a spirit that controls this group. Lee has come and gone, like Nee before him, but the spirit remains. Two things we can say about it: first that it doesn't come from God. The fruit is evident. Sectarianism, judgmentalism, control, lording over the saints, elevating of men, etc. I could go on and on, but read the posts on this forum. The evidence abounds. The signs are clear.

Secondly this spirit doesn't want to identify itself, so it hides. It wants you to do anything except look at it. So it constantly points out "rebellions", warns against "negativity" and "ambition" (always belonging someone else), and trumpets the faults of everyone else (the whole of "Christianity" is supposedly fallen and ruined, entirely without hope). It even tells us the problems with the Recovery saints, that we're fleshly, dormant, lukewarm, even dead. But The Spirit of the Recovery is without any faults! Why? Because if you begin to "try the spirits to see if they are from God" this spirit will immediately respond tenfold. It will say that you are "opposing" and "attacking" etc. It apparently has no capacity for humility, for correction, for restraint. It says it's protecting "the church" and the purity of "the Lord's move" but I daresay it only protects itself. Those terms are just covers.

We can change, but I don't see that spirits can ever change; they simply are what they are. But we have a choice.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I don't think spirits change. There is a spirit that controls this group. Lee has come and gone, like Nee before him, but the spirit remains. Two things we can say about it: first that it doesn't come from God. The fruit is evident. Sectarianism, judgmentalism, control, lording over the saints, elevating of men, etc. I could go on and on, but read the posts on this forum. The evidence abounds. The signs are clear.

Secondly this spirit doesn't want to identify itself, so it hides. It wants you to do anything except look at it. So it constantly points out "rebellions", warns against "negativity" and "ambition" (always belonging someone else), and trumpets the faults of everyone else (the whole of "Christianity" is supposedly fallen and ruined, entirely without hope). It even tells us the problems with the Recovery saints, that we're fleshly, dormant, lukewarm, even dead. But The Spirit of the Recovery is without any faults! Why? Because if you begin to "try the spirits to see if they are from God" this spirit will immediately respond tenfold. It will say that you are "opposing" and "attacking" etc. It apparently has no capacity for humility, for correction, for restraint. It says it's protecting "the church" and the purity of "the Lord's move" but I daresay it only protects itself. Those terms are just covers.

This post is quite telling, aron. Thanks.

Reminds me of something I once read about the "Jezebel spirit."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This post is quite telling, aron. Thanks.

Reminds me of something I once read about the "Jezebel spirit."

The reason I said that spirits don't change is that I noticed that the unclean spirits didn't get any chance to "repent" or "reform themselves" when they contacted Jesus. It was only, "Have you come to destroy us before our time?" And Jesus said, "When an unclean spirit leaves a person it flies about in waterless places, seeking rest. Then it gets others and goes back..." Nothing about transfer from an unclean spirit to a clean one.

But we can repent, and we can choose. And we need to choose wisely because counterfeit spirits abound... notice, for example, that some cults name Jesus. Some name Him quite prominently. Then they add extra revelations, etc. And if you hang out with them you wonder where is the peace, the love, the joy. It is all heavy yokes, and unsatisfied masters. "Give, give!!" they cry.

And that goes for me, too. How much bitterness, narrowness, judgmentalism do I show when I write (or in person, for that matter)? Am I willing to repent when someone calls me on it? It's easy to be a poseur on Sunday morning, or on internet chat rooms. Like I said, I've learned not to trust anyone, much less myself. I certainly hope to hear a "Well, done. Enter...." one day. But in the meantime the journey continues.

[zeek]

Why would there be any need to forgive this faithful man of God? https://www.congress.gov/congression...article/E621-3

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

Why would there be any need to forgive this faithful man of God? https://www.congress.gov/congression...article/E621-3

Great job in digging this up and it is in 2014 as well. You're right, although, in part, the intent is to have the Chinese release believers in Christ. However, in so doing they present a very slanted picture of Nee/Lee.

I listened to Bill Freeman since I had heard of him but never met him: http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...ge_NR-E016.mp3 What I thought was remarkable was the fact that even though he was not tied at the time directly with the LC anymore his intonation of his Biblical teaching was as though WL had taken over his mind and speech and was sharing the talk. I think that is a big part of the problem with the LC. The influence was an infusion of Lee into everyone. That is why we can't forgive Lee...he superseded Jesus and made it almost impossible to shake the influence of Lee. That is also one of the problems with many today who even continue in Christianity after leaving the LC and dislike Lee...they have not shaken the influence of Lee no matter how they dislike what he has done or said...just can't shake it.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

Great job in digging this up and it is in 2014 as well. You're right, although, in part, the intent is to have the Chinese release believers in Christ. However, in so doing they present a very slanted picture of Nee/Lee.

I listened to Bill Freeman since I had heard of him but never met him: http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...ge_NR-E016.mp3 What I thought was remarkable was the fact that even though he was not tied at the time directly with the LC anymore his intonation of his Biblical teaching was as though WL had taken over his mind and speech and was sharing the talk. I think that is a big part of the problem with the LC. The influence was an infusion of Lee into everyone. That is why we can't forgive Lee...he superseded Jesus and made it almost impossible to shake the influence of Lee. That is also one of the problems with many today who even continue in Christianity after leaving the LC and dislike Lee...they have not shaken the influence of Lee no matter how they dislike what he has done or said...just can't shake it.

I think we should forgive everyone everything. Nevertheless, I think that we need to be clear in our own minds about our positions vis a vis Lee and his "Recovery". Here's a Witness Lee quote which I take as evidence of his sectarianism since "the ministry" he refers to here is his ministry:

The Lord's Recovery we cannot accept any ministry that is not part of the ministry. To accept other kinds of ministry would be to take in some food that is different from the heavenly manna. We thank the Lord that from the very beginning He showed us what is the ministry of Christ, the ministry of life. We have one tree of life, one manna. Throughout the years I have been in this country, I have given thousands of messages. But all these messages have conveyed one food, one diet: Christ as the unique food for God's people.
by Witness Lee
Life-Study of Exodus
Chapter 35, Section 3

And as my signature line which is a quote from Lee's phone conversation with Sal Benoit in 1978 shows, Lee would broach no question about his ministry. He did not see himself as accountable to the people he ministered to.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

I think we should forgive everyone everything. Nevertheless, I think that we need to be clear in our own minds about our positions vis a vis Lee and his "Recovery". Here's a Witness Lee quote which I take as evidence of his sectarianism since "the ministry" he refers to here is his ministry:

I don't think anyone here is soley due to pent up anger towards Lee. It's more of wanting to expose the system that Lee created. Personally, I try to look at both the good and the bad in the LC. There are some things I am thankful for, and other things that I want to quickly put behind me. When I think about saints who have led me astray, I just try to realize that it's not their fault, it is simply the blind leading the blind.

On the one hand Lee needs to be forgiven, on the other hand, the saints in the LC need to know the truth, as well as the Christian public. Statements such as what was posted from Lee's Life Study need to be taken seriously:

The Lord's Recovery we cannot accept any ministry that is not part of the ministry. To accept other kinds of ministry would be to take in some food that is different from the heavenly manna.

I don't understand how anyone cannot view this as sectarianism. If the LC wants to be exclusive, then that's ultimately their choice. What they shouldn't do, however, is pretend not to be exclusive as they did before the CRI. That is what disgusts me about the LC.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I don't think anyone here is soley due to pent up anger towards Lee. It's more of wanting to expose the system that Lee created. Personally, I try to look at both the good and the bad in the LC. There are some things I am thankful for, and other things that I want to quickly put behind me. When I think about saints who have led me astray, I just try to realize that it's not their fault, it is simply the blind leading the blind.

On the one hand Lee needs to be forgiven, on the other hand, the saints in the LC need to know the truth, as well as the Christian public. Statements such as what was posted from Lee's Life Study need to be taken seriously:
I don't understand how anyone cannot view this as sectarianism. If the LC wants to be exclusive, then that's ultimately their choice. What they shouldn't do, however, is pretend not to be exclusive as they did before the CRI. That is what disgusts me about the LC.

I agree with you Freedom. And we need to get the word out because there is a publicity campaign that can even post in the Congressional record what a faithful man of God Lee was. I'm not going to argue that point one way or another. But, Lee was a man who in the name of God thought that he possessed all the truth of God necessary for his time. As a result of his view of himself as peerless and above counsel, and his ministry became unbalanced. There were others even among those close to him that possessed virtues that he lacked. Yet their voices were stifled by the dominance and exclusivity of his ministry.

Witness Lee had a very inflated view of himself and his ministry. As family psychologist John Rosemond has noted, people with high self-regard, possess low regard for others. Lee's denigrating attitude toward Christianity and his lack of a sense of responsibility to members of the local churches are evidence that this is his case. Instead of seeking opportunities to serve others, those with high self esteem seek to manipulate others. That is what Lee appears to have done by surreptitiously soliciting funds and laundering money for his ill-conceived business ventures. Furthermore, people with high self-regard tend toward antisocial behavior. As evidence of this consider the prevalence of people incarcerated in maximum security prisons who have very high self-regard. Also consider the high self esteem of so many of the despots and tyrants of history. It stands to reason that a person like Witness Lee with low regard for others is not a person who can model the virtues of love, and compassion for his followers. That goes a long way toward explaining the love deficit that many of us witnessed in the so-called local Churches. It was a deficit that I myself exhibited as one of his faithful followers and for which I sought forgiveness.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

I listened to Bill Freeman since I had heard of him but never met him... even though he was not tied at the time directly with the LC anymore his intonation of his Biblical teaching was as though WL had taken over his mind and speech and was sharing the talk. I think that is a big part of the problem with the LC. The influence was an infusion of Lee into everyone. That is also one of the problems with many today who even continue in Christianity after leaving the LC and dislike Lee...they have not shaken the influence of Lee no matter how they dislike what he has done or said...just can't shake it.

That is why I talk about the spirit controlling the LC. WL is gone but the spirit remains. We accept it, unquestioningly, because it appears to be "an authority in the church". Just like parents turned their sons and daughters over to RCC priests. They trusted the process that gave them these "men of God." Until you question it, and critically examine it, it remains.

I have met ex-LCers who have been abandoned by the group, but they can't meet with other Christians because they are still held by "the ground", and "the ministry". Even though they've lost the so-called "practical expression", they remain captive, because they cannot or will not question the teachings that they absorbed. Even though the fruit of the teachings has brought them nothing but pain, the teaching insists that any failure is their own. So they keep looking to the teaching even though it gives them nothing.

And your final phrase, "just can't shake it" is appropriate. We need to shake it. Notice what happened when the unclean spirits left the victims. They were rolling around on the ground and crying out. They were "shaking it". I believe that we also need to shake it.

Originally Posted by Dave

That is why we can't forgive Lee...he superseded Jesus and made it almost impossible to shake the influence of Lee.

Almost impossible, but not impossible. Big difference. Nothing is impossible with God. And everyone is forgivable.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

...we need to get the word out because there is a publicity campaign that can even post in the Congressional record what a faithful man of God Lee was. I'm not going to argue that point one way or another..

I will argue the point...

So it's up to the U.S. Congress to recognize who are the faithful servants of God? Are you kidding me? Everybody knows that for 20,000 dollars a U.S. Congressman will recognize Tuesday, Sept 29th as "National Petunia Day." Or whatever; they'll recognize anything for cash money. Not only that, they won't recognize their own mother for less than 20,000 dollars.

So I don't find it much of a testimony at all. It just means that the world system has acknowledged you. Like Romney running for president on the Republican ticket: that doesn't validate Mormon teachings a whit. Just means that they've gained traction in the world. Or Billy Graham getting a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Just means that the world recognizes him. He's met with every President since WWII. Okay; great.

I've noticed that Walt Disney Co. stock has been doing well lately. Does that mean ol' Walt was a prophet, blessed by God? Or rather, that his entertainment conglomerate has had success within the present world system? Probably the latter. In any event I don't see Congressional statements, or financial statements, as indicators of God's favor. Not in "the present evil age (Gal 1:4)." Has LSM forgotten their own teachings?

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

Lee would broach no question about his ministry. He did not see himself as accountable to the people he ministered to.

The Lord's Recovery we cannot accept any ministry that is not part of the ministry. To accept other kinds of ministry would be to take in some food that is different from the heavenly manna. We thank the Lord that from the very beginning He showed us what is the ministry of Christ, the ministry of life. We have one tree of life, one manna. Throughout the years I have been in this country, I have given thousands of messages. But all these messages have conveyed one food, one diet: Christ as the unique food for God's people.
by Witness Lee
Life-Study of Exodus
Chapter 35, Section 3

WL said, "Our ministry presents Jesus Christ; no other ministry preaches Christ, because all other ministries are contaminated or deficient." Everything after "Our ministry presents Jesus Christ" is rubbish. The worst contamination is one that says it's pure. "You say that you see; therefore your sin remains." Satan loves to hide, then he won't be recognized and rooted out.

I don't see this as megalomania per se but rather that WL imbibed at the wrong fountain. Its effect presents as megalomaniacal symptoms (every one is wrong but me; I alone am right), but at its heart is probably a person like you or I who got caught by some bad teachings. The bad teachings hid a bad spirit who took over a human being. Just like many before, and many after -- same old, same old. Satan doesn't change his tricks; he doesn't have to because they're so successful.

Notice how "Christ as the unique food for God's people" eventually became "Christ and the church" and "the rich ministry" and "God's oracle" and "God's economy" and "deputy authority" and "God's present move" and "the apostle of the age" and so many other things. But all of it was accepted as if it were "just Christ". Very impressive, actually; I have to give them props. Very impressive sleight-of-hand.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

The bad teachings hid a bad spirit who took over a human being. Just like many before, and many after -- same old, same old. Satan doesn't change his tricks; he doesn't have to because they're so successful.

This is why humility and maintaining the attitude of being a servant to all are so important. This is why the Lord said things like, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first" and "Be led away to the lowly." This is why he said receive little children in my name. This is why Paul said to honor the least of the members. The list goes on and on.

Lifting yourself up as something is the first clue that you are deceived and are deceiving others. If any of us on this board start acting like we've got some special gift or ministry and are above the others here, we are doing in essence what Lee did. Now you may have some unusual gift, but if you start waving it around like it gives you special privileges, then you are, as aron said, falling for Satan's tricks.

Lee declared he was first, so I'm afraid that means in some sense he will be last. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. There it is again.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Lifting yourself up as something is the first clue that you are deceived and are deceiving others.

By the way, the "Recovery" does this as a group, which is why they are deceived and deceiving others.

Satan's tricks always start with pride. The rest is just working out the details of being deceived while not knowing it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

But, Lee was a man who in the name of God thought that he possessed all the truth of God necessary for his time. As a result of his view of himself as peerless and above counsel, and his ministry became unbalanced. There were others even among those close to him that possessed virtues that he lacked. Yet their voices were stifled by the dominance and exclusivity of his ministry.

Witness Lee had a very inflated view of himself and his ministry. As family psychologist John Rosemond has noted, people with high self-regard, possess low regard for others. Lee's denigrating attitude toward Christianity and his lack of a sense of responsibility to members of the local churches are evidence that this is his case.

Instead of seeking opportunities to serve others, those with high self esteem seek to manipulate others. That is what Lee appears to have done by surreptitiously soliciting funds and laundering money for his ill-conceived business ventures. Furthermore, people with high self-regard tend toward antisocial behavior.

It stands to reason that a person like Witness Lee with low regard for others is not a person who can model the virtues of love, and compassion for his followers. That goes a long way toward explaining the love deficit that many of us witnessed in the so-called local Churches. It was a deficit that I myself exhibited as one of his faithful followers and for which I sought forgiveness.

As I was slowly exited the WL program, one question constantly dogged me, "how can something so good turn out so bad?" Other posters may vehemently protest the "so good" phrase, but in my defense, I did experience miraculous changes in my life, which provide impetus for my description.

I find this post by zeek to provide excellent insight into the same conclusions which I have arrived at myself. Romans 12.16 says, "Do not be haughty in mind, but condescend to men of low estate, do not be wise in your own estimation." Both Nee and Lee, as gifted and ambitious young Christians in China, convinced themselves that they were "raised up" to correct all the problems in the church of God. This faulty beginning, I believe, was the the root cause of all subsequent failures.

[zeek]

I take Witness Lee to be God's servant, much like the Devil is. He served God by teaching me not to follow ANYONE no matter how brilliant the words, how grand the vision or how many other people he or she leads. We the sheeple, the ones with low self esteem, need to learn to love ourselves and follow our own way no matter how painful, how uncertain and how lonely. We were the ones who made Witness Lee what he was. Whether we forgive him or not, let's learn from our mistake.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Both Nee and Lee, as gifted and ambitious young Christians in China, convinced themselves that they were "raised up" to correct all the problems in the church of God. This faulty beginning, I believe, was the the root cause of all subsequent failures.

And that is a pretty fair assessment.

Funny thing is that even if we are kind to "early Lee" at times, the problems really go back to his youth — long before he came to the US. For me, that means that failure was well under way before 60s, even though hidden from the new followers in America.

And second, Nee was at this game earlier than Lee, and at an earlier point in his life (both natural and Christian) and therefore deluded by the time his first writings hit the presses. Yet some of us still haven't noticed the error that reaches way beyond the ground and deputy authority. We are still convinced we are capable of picking all the mealy bugs, rat hair, and yeast out of the sack of fine flour. (At times I think that maybe it is more like trying to pick the fine flour out of the sack of mealy bugs, rat hair, and yeast.)

Either way, it is difficult to declare that you have pure flour.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

A Yet some of us still haven't noticed the error that reaches way beyond the ground and deputy authority. We are still convinced we are capable of picking all the mealy bugs, rat hair, and yeast out of the sack of fine flour. (At times I think that maybe it is more like trying to pick the fine flour out of the sack of mealy bugs, rat hair, and yeast.)

Either way, it is difficult to declare that you have pure flour.

I suppose this means, when it comes to Witness Lee and the Recovery, it is best to throw all the dirty flour out ... and start with fresh.

My problem with them was that at first they looked upon me as fine flour ... but eventually they looked upon me as a mealy bug ... that had to be picked out and tossed away.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

I suppose this means, when it comes to Witness Lee and the Recovery, it is best to throw all the dirty flour out ... and start with fresh.

My problem with them was that at first they looked upon me as fine flour ... but eventually they looked upon me as a mealy bug ... that had to be picked out and tossed away.

Unfortunately, that may be a reasonable metaphor for what happened to you. Don't let that be the reason that you don't return the favor with respect to their teachings.

Of course, classifying you in such a manner was part of their own mealy bug infestation. They had to mask its source by blaming someone else.

Is there not a difference between trespasses and sins? Didn't both The Lord and Paul give situations where something like excommunication was warranted? Didn't The Lord tell us to count some as publicans? The Jews hated the publicans. Isn't it well possible that WL should have been removed from the leadership years before 1962? Of course WN was excommunicated.
Paul once said "their mouths must be shut." Or was it John?

To say we must forgive so many popes, Joseph smith, Mary Baker Eddy, and the many LC blendeds, I'm not so sure. I'm not for starting a war but I don't have that much good feeling about the history.
I believe I can truthfully say I never experienced any love, good conscience, genuine faith which is in the context of the famous "God's economy" we heard hundreds of times.

Lisbon

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Romans 12.16 says, "Do not be haughty in mind, but condescend to men of low estate, do not be wise in your own estimation." Both Nee and Lee, as gifted and ambitious young Christians in China, convinced themselves that they were "raised up" to correct all the problems in the church of God.

"Do not be wise in your own estimation." Wow, Lee missed that verse, didn't he? He was so wise that nobody could teach him, or correct him, or add anything to what he said. He was the wise master builder. He was the apostle to end the age. He was God's oracle.

Satan's tricks are pretty simple, at their heart. One of his tricks is to say, "You are a scumbag and a loser. Nobody will ever love you." If he can't get that one to stick, he'll try elevating you: "Nobody has been gifted like you. You're special; you're God's unique gift to the present age." If you are a Christian, he'll try to elevate you above the flock. This is perilous to the useful ones.

Lee's estimation of Lee was rather high. I think that's probably a fair statement. He hid it under various guises -- see, e.g. "the ministry", but really I think some warped 19th century Brethren teachings became the vectors for a proud and independent spirit to take root, and grow, and blossom, and bear fruit.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

I take Witness Lee to be God's servant, much like the Devil is. He served God by teaching me not to follow ANYONE no matter how brilliant the words, how grand the vision or how many other people he or she leads. We the sheeple, the ones with low self esteem, need to learn to love ourselves and follow our own way no matter how painful, how uncertain and how lonely. We were the ones who made Witness Lee what he was. Whether we forgive him or not, let's learn from our mistake.

Jesus gave us many warnings of false prophets and teachers perhaps for a good reason because they cause so much destruction. Lee is long dead now, though the spirit of Lee is still alive in the LCs. Compared to my first post here, I now think forgiving Lee is maybe not relevant anymore, but letting go of bitterness and hardness of heart may still be.

Whenever I struggle with bitterness stories like this remind me of what true Christianity is:

"Mother of slain teen sings her forgiveness and shares the love of Jesus"

http://m.utsandiego.com/news/2015/ja...rgives-killer/

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Jesus gave us many warnings of false prophets and teachers perhaps for a good reason because they cause so much destruction. Lee is long dead now, though the spirit of Lee is still alive in the LCs. Compared to my first post here, I now think forgiving Lee is maybe not relevant anymore, but letting go of bitterness and hardness of heart may still be.

Whenever I struggle with bitterness stories like this remind me of what true Christianity is:

"Mother of slain teen sings her forgiveness and shares the love of Jesus"

http://m.utsandiego.com/news/2015/ja...rgives-killer/

Good point. Forgiveness, it seems, is relative. Meanwhile there are two groups on Facebook: Lord's Recovery and The Lord's Recovery, one open and the other closed, each with over 8000 members. There is also a Witness Lee page on FB where they post quotations from his writing. So our little forum here is pretty tiny by comparison. Maybe we should consider going head to head with the Leeites on FB. What do you think? Would they crucify us? Hey, maybe that's a reason to do it. Thoughts?