A Memorial to the Church Life

[Indiana]

This website was created in 2001 as a memorial to the church life in the earlier days, and to the saints then present who shared the experience.

www.lordsrecovery.us

[OBW]

I could not find anything that makes this cite a memorial to the past LC. It looks more like a history — positive in every aspect — of the LC up through at least the death of Lee. The only difference in the past 11 years would be the lack of new stuff from Lee and the committee of BBs that has taken over as they wait for the opportunity to make the LC their own, either together or through the slow expulsion of their own ranks until only the preeminent ones emerge.

Am I a skeptic and a cynic. Probably. I realize that you do seek for a return to the "pure" days of the LC. Unfortunately, I cannot go along because I don't think they really ever existed. The negative, including negative teachings, is entirely mixed into the fabric of the LC. It was even back in those days. We just didn't see it, or didn't want to admit that we did.

[Hope]

Hello Mike,

Those of us who in some way were among the founders or early starters were well aware of many problems and shortfalls among us. We did not see ourselves yet as a group of all star christians. But we did not consider that there were things with the heritage from China and Taiwan or WL himself that were off and would lead us down a direction we did not want to take. We absolutely focused on what was good and just hoped for the best. We even had some slogans and cockeyed practices about not paying attention to chicken bones etc. But you can choke on chicken bones. Do not just blame WL and the baggage from Taiwan. The Americans were quite a motely crew from many, many backgrounds who brought in baggage which got mixed into the whole fabric. Later I will give my analysis of all the problems which were thrown into the pot and out came the abusive practices and teachings.

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Cal]

I have a lot of respect for Steve. He has endured a lot of hardship for standing up for what he believes. I can on the one hand understand his desire to return to what to him was a heavenly experience on earth, the best experience he has ever had. I have no problem with him chronicling a unique moment in history. The story of the LC movement needs to be preserved.

On the other hand, I wonder if what he is doing is according to the Lord. Not his speaking truth to power, I have no problem with that. Rather his desire to return to the past seems oddly backward. The Lord doesn't need to return to anything, he is the present reality, and he is always moving forward.

Here a problem with the concept of "Recovery" is exposed, it bespeaks a movement backward instead of forward. ("Gimme that old time religion.") Is there anywhere in the Bible where God encourages us to return to the past? I don't know of any.

Nostalgia is a powerful emotion. ("Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear!") The good old days look better and better as they move further and further into the past. I don't doubt Steve's days in the LC were joyous to him. What bothers me is that he seems to feel he can't experience something as good or better outside of a return to the past, as if he knows he's seen the best. ("The 1939 Buick Roadmaster was the best darn car ever made, I don't care what anyone says!"). And it seems quite sad to think that the Lord's ability to give Steve the best experience possible is contingent on the reform of a third-party. He seems to feel his experience is being held hostage by the bad guys. Is that possible? I thought death couldn't hold the resurrection life.

How about returning to Christ and seeing where He leads? A refugee may not be able to sing the Lord's song in a strange land, yet if the land is Christ, rather than a group of people, then one is never in a strange land. I say with all love and respect that Steve seems to be in, at least in part, a cage of his own making.

[OBW]

Don,

You are correct. The start of the LC in the US, while eventually influenced by the problems that had gone before in Taiwan, was not entirely formed by that past. And as anyone who looks at the collection of people that comprised the early days can testify, it was an “interesting” group that ranged from some with significant theological training to Jesus people attracted to the new forms, specially the open meeting style and joyous countenance on the faces.

I was really not saying that any particular part was good or bad, or that anyone was always good or bad. I was simply noting that the “memorial” essentially trumpets the LC line right up to Lee’s death while ignoring that there was anything that was ever a problem. The descriptions and verbiage are idyllic. It is not certain that such a totally positive experience ever truly existed except when getting nostalgic for some kind of “good ole days.” Some of it was never more than theory even in Eldon Hall or Anaheim.

I’ve heard it said that the only people who refer to the “good ole days” are those who either weren’t there or forgot that they were formerly called “these tryin’ times.” I don’t think the first generation of the church was any better. The record is not of peace, harmony, and high peak truths. It is of apostles writing to them to straighten out their problems. “All of Asia” left Paul, but were still called churches when the seven letters were written in Revelation. But if a “church” leaves Lee or the LSM, it is no longer a church. That may not have been as clearly so in the 60s or 70s, (or at least not as well known) but it is public record now.

I blame Lee for the core of the leavened teachings. I blame his mixture of money and ministry with church for a lot of the failings and blow-ups with personalities. I blame, at a minimum, his absence of leadership for the slow take-over by Benson and his cronies. For the errors, there is plenty of blame to go around. And for the forms and ways that were so enticing and enjoyable, there is plenty of credit to go around. While I no longer follow the notion that there is a God ordained way for these things, many of the LC ways were, at a minimum, not bad. There is something to study and consider for smaller gatherings of believers ─ not that there should be a “way,” but that some of those ways may be helpful in some cases.

[Indiana]

Riches of Christ we should enjoy, and then His fulness we will be
Partaking of His very self, His testimony men will see.

But men cannot not see so clearly, when...

I would like to share the following with you that I prepared today, which includes a sister's testimony.

www.lordsrecovery.us/ChristtheContent.pdf

.................................................. ...................

QUOTE FROM Brother MIKE - ...I was simply noting that the “memorial” essentially trumpets the LC line right up to Lee’s death while ignoring that there was anything that was ever a problem.

On this particular website it is true I focused on the most positive aspects of the "local churches", as it registered within me. My feeling was especially for addressing the earlier period that was more sweet and profound, but there is something to appreciate up thru today. And, as the gospel goes out from them in 2009 I will rejoice that men and women, thousands of them, will be hearing the gospel.

[Indiana]

To be sure, the positive website was to provide the most positive testimony I could make from my heart about the local churches. I had already written In the Wake of the New Way and was quickly set aside, and soon had the feeling to write all that was in my heart on the positive side in a website.

Showing the Path we were once on with one Center would be in contrast to showing the deviation from the path, which I have now done. There is no need to go back to the “good ole days”, except to show the Path we were on and the fruit of life experienced in the churches by having one common Center.

Although, I, and others, have referred to an unhindered time of the Spirit’s moving and days of glory in the local churches, we had much to learn about the practical church life and relationships.

Your summation, brother Igzy, of a practical oneness speaks to the need. And, WL and WN spoke intensively to the need at the end of their ministries.

And, the website www.MakingStraighttheWayoftheLord.com provides a thorough fellowship of exposing the deviation, and encouraging a return to the right Path with an enlarged heart and practical care for people, and with Christ as our only “common center”.

as Igzy has stated in words that should be etched in stone:
The two great commandments--love God, love people--tell us plainly where the focus of our hearts should be. When we start getting focused on some ideal, "the church," "oneness," "sanctification," "bringing the Lord back," "the consummation of the ages," "the heavenly vision," whatever, people always tend to become means to the end of that vision, and become expendable. This, too, happened in the LC.

People are never a means to an end. They are the end. They are our mission. If we love God and love people, oneness will not be a problem.

[Oregon]

QUOTE FROM IGZY

"On the other hand, I wonder if what he is doing is according to the Lord. Not his speaking truth to power, I have no problem with that. Rather his desire to return to the past seems oddly backward. The Lord doesn't need to return to anything, he is the present reality, and he is always moving forward.

Here a problem with the concept of "Recovery" is exposed, it bespeaks a movement backward instead of forward. ("Gimme that old time religion.") Is there anywhere in the Bible where God encourages us to return to the past? I don't know of any. "

Actually if soneones sense of returning to the past is a returning to God and to what His word reveals it is a wonderful thing. When the children of Israel were carried into captivity that was only for a time. Even though God did wonderful things through men like Daniel, to remain in captivity was not the will of God. God's will was for them to return to the land He gave to Abraham and to Jerusalem.

What Steve is longing for is to have God's people meeting in oneness again and recieving one another only on the basis that they are members of the Lord's body. This kind of returning is a very good thing. This is not "ol time religion".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Oregon

What Steve is longing for is to have God's people meeting in oneness again and recieving one another only on the basis that they are members of the Lord's body. This kind of returning is a very good thing. This is not "ol time religion".

Amen Oregon! Many I had known that came into the recovery during the late 60's and early 70's, their testimony was just to be a Christian was enough to be recieved. Now?
Sorry to say, but the recovery has become a religious denomination.
Lessons can be learned from other Christian denominations about having a heart to receive others into your assemblies.


Terry

[countmeworthy]

Steve and all.......

For the church life, there are two main and basic aspects. We must be thoroughly clear about these, for without them we have no reality of the church life. The first is that Christ Himself is the life, the content, and everything in the church. It is absolutely not a matter of forms, doctrines, or certain kinds of expressions. Those who are really in the church life are those who are experiencing Christ as their very life day by day.Christ is everything to them; therefore, Christ is their life and content whenever they come together.
The practice of the church life is a life of Christ and a life with Christ as everything. W.L. booklet

I take issue in these comments because it is NOT TRUE!
Examples of messages on topics given by Brother Lee:

----"outer darkness"
----"the White Horse in the book of Revelation...pertaining to the 4 horsemen"
----"the elders" in Revelation 4:1
----"Speaking or praying in Tongues"

----Praying 'in the NAME of Jesus'.

.......just to name a few.

After much research and seeking the Lord's guidance, I disagree with Lee's teachings on these subject matters. Perhaps other people do to.

For Lee to say..."It is absolutely
not a matter of forms, doctrines, or certain kinds of expressions" ........oh YES it IS!!! Try fellowshipping with someone...SHOWING them through THE WORD of GOD how Lee got some of it wrong........and see what happens! Try disagreeing with the footnotes of the RcV...in a KIND way...explaining how you disagree........and you'll get something like "Well...we're for the ONENESS"

Uh-huh...Yeah. Right.

You have to see it LEE (LSMs/LC's) WAY. AND if BY CHANCE, one of the Blendeds share something 'new' that YOU already had known or seen, then you're applauded. But not before the LSM/LC has been given the 'revelation' from Lee's teachings first!

The practice of the church life is NOT Life as Christ and Christ as everything..
Many people here have loved ones in the LSM/LC. So WHAT if you're no longer following Lee's messages.

Do THEY receive YOU? They might argue...'YOU are an opposer'....but YOU are following the Word of God..fellowshipping with the SON, listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Honoring and Worshipping the Father...and fellowshipping with other Christians...possibly leading people to CHRIST..

Does THAT matter to them at all?

If they were for Christ as LIFE, there wouldn't be lawsuits and divisions and confusion and sadness in the LSM/LC......They wouldn't all be talking about Lee's writings! They'd be talking about CHRIST in them/in us , the BLESSED Hope of GLORY!

P.S. Those examples I gave....are personal to ME only. It makes no difference to me if you agree w/Lee's teachings on these subject matters or not. You're FREE to disagree with me if you like.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Oregon

What Steve is longing for is to have God's people meeting in oneness again and recieving one another only on the basis that they are members of the Lord's body. This kind of returning is a very good thing. This is not "ol time religion".

I understand that. My point was it's a myth that one must return to the LC church life as it was practiced in the 60s-70 to attain this. As it is a myth that this cannot be found in many places right now that never heard of the LC church life.

You can't recreate the past, you can only apply timeless principles. I think this is what Steve gets at in his last post.

Trying to recreate that time would be like trying to recreate one's childhood. I love this part of William Wordsworths's poem, "Ode on Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood":

What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find Strength in what remains behind...

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I understand that. My point was it's a myth that one must return to the LC church life as it was practiced in the 60s-70 to attain this. As it is a myth that this cannot be found in many places right now that never heard of the LC church life. ...

You can't recreate the past, you can only apply timeless principles. I think this is what Steve gets at in his last post.

Originally Posted by juliep

Understand where you're coming from. I won't even start on my personal opinion of James and what he put everyone through! I'm thankfull that part of my life is over, and I am trying to deal with it and forget it as best I can. I know I'm definantely not the only one out there!

During the 60s-early 70s, the Spirit was working in many wonderful ways. The Spirit is still working in many wonderful ways. During those earlier times, some believers had been stirred to seek to follow the Lord according to truths and principles in the New Testament that had been neglected. There were some personalities who were gifted and constituted by the Head Christ and given as gifts to the Body. Today there are believers who have been stirred to seek in the same way and I have to believe that the Head continues to give gifts to the Body. But there are many myths and endless genealogies which do not lead to God’s Administration. I hope we can sort these out and be better off for our experience.


In an earlier post, I mentioned,

I would propose that we consider the pains, sufferings, stumblings and damages and disillusionments from at least five directions. 1. What was the role of wrong or defective teachings and practices in the local church movement? 2. How much of the pain was caused by plain old human failure or incompetence? 3. What role did the individuals play and what about each person’s own responsibility? Of course, this will vary from case to case. 4. We are dealing with Spiritual matters and we are not ignorant of the schemes of the devil. The devil is seeking someone to devour and accuses the saints night and day. We do have an enemy. 5. As the Psalmist says, life is like the sea seldom at rest. We will all experience disappointments and trouble. I have had bad professors. I have had coaches who did not do things in a fair way. Same with bosses. Same with clients. Same with neighbors. ETC. Some parents have miserable lives after age 35 because of bad children. It does cut both ways. How we react to the troubles that come is a big matter.

Juliep mentioned James Barber. Once James boasted to me that he was known among the churches as “the regulator.” He was a gifted Bible teacher and loved the Lord. But he was a very small narrow person who maneuvered others constantly and hurt many. Eventually Witness Lee himself expressed his own negative feelings about the way James suppressed and controlled the saints. James was a very negative personality constantly looking for the faults of others, real or imagined. Max Rapoport was able to subdue him easily in So. California and have him shipped off to Oklahoma because so many had very hard feelings toward James.

I just learned of matters where he hurt Juliep. I am so sorry for that. Juliep, I never knew a thing. I knew that James and his best buddy in Dallas did not like your parents and hurt them on occasion. I am glad to learn that you seem to be doing well.

This idea of a Memorial to the Church Life is okay by me if it refers to the move of the Spirit, the seeking of Christians to follow the Lord according to the truth and the functioning of all the members and the aid rendered by the gifted persons.

Hope, Don Rutledge

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Hope

But there are many myths and endless genealogies which do not lead to God’s Administration. I hope we can sort these out and be better off for our experience.

Hope, please do speak more on this topic. This something I need to be clear about.

Terry

[Indiana]

CMW, This quote was from a booklet that I first read in 1970, when the saints were enjoying Christ as life, as their only center on a ground of oneness. The concern you expressed in your post was actually for a later period.

For the church life, there are two main and basic aspects. We must be thoroughly clear about these, for without them we have no reality of the church life. The first is that Christ Himself is the life, the content, and everything in the church. It is absolutely not a matter of forms, doctrines, or certain kinds of expressions. Those who are really in the church life are those who are experiencing Christ as their very life day by day. Christ is everything to them; therefore, Christ is their life and content whenever they come together.
The practice of the church life is a life of Christ and a life with Christ as everything. W.L. booklet

I take issue in these comments because it is NOT TRUE! -CMW

But this was the encouragement, and to some degree our experience, that did bring blessing - Indiana

[countmeworthy]

Indie,
I began to reply to your PM but instead, I'll do it here..will save double explanation.

Originally Posted by Indiana

CMW, This quote was from a booklet that I first read in 1970, when the saints were enjoying Christ as life, as their only center on a ground of oneness. The concern you expressed in your post was actually for a later period.
I take issue in these comments because it is NOT TRUE! -CMW

But this was the encouragement, and to some degree our experience, that did bring blessing - Indiana

In theory, what was written about the church life by WL in that booklet should work. YET, for many, what was written in that booklet shattered their lives as they tried to live the church life under Lee's teachings and Lee's community living.

We see it and read it on the forums.. almost every newbie's experience that has left the LC/LSM has bad recollections mixed with some good ones...But the bad experiences seem to outweigh the good.

This is why I wrote "NOT TRUE". The formula and theory prescribed by Lee should have worked but it did not for most. For some it did. I do not know what it was that caused it to go wrong over all.

Thankfully...GOD DOES WORK!! Christ in us is the HOPE of GLORY. And one day the glorious church life will work...when we have our new Glorious bodies, ruling and reigning in the Milleniel Kingdom with Christ and living in eternity in a world without end..different than that of this world. God's WORD is TRUTH..and He tells us we are in this world but not of it.

May the LORD heal us all and bring us to experience 'The ONE NEW MAN' in HIM...for Behold how GOOD and how PLEASANT it is for Brethren to dwell in unity....for there the LORD commanded the BLESSING...even LIFE forevermore.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

In theory, what was written about the church life by WL in that booklet should work. YET, for many, what was written in that booklet shattered their lives as they tried to live the church life under Lee's teachings and Lee's community living

[Response: Please take care of the time periods; you are speaking publicly, and go on record.]

We see it and read it on the forums.. almost every newbie's experience that has left the LC/LSM has bad recollections mixed with some good ones...But the bad experiences seem to outweigh the good.

[please be accurate; what bad experiences seem to outweigh the good before 1974? Whatever they may be, they actually did not come close to outweighing the good.]

This is why I wrote "NOT TRUE". The formula and theory prescribed by Lee should have worked but it did not for most. For some it did. I do not know what it was that caused it to go wrong over all.

CMW, You do not know why? I hope you will come to know why. It is well-documented. For all those who don't know why, please refer to www.makingstraightthewayofthelord.com/AHistoryoftheLordsRecoveryinUS.pdf just to begin to answer this question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

In theory, what was written about the church life by WL in that booklet should work. YET, for many, what was written in that booklet shattered their lives as they tried to live the church life under Lee's teachings and Lee's community living.

Initially, as Indiana states, the ministry of WL in the USA was Biblically based and therefore it was very fruitful. There also was a pouring out of the Spirit upon all believers in the late 60's / early 70's which made WL appear "larger than life" to those members. As WL slowly introduced over time his own extra-biblical teachings and practices, things deteriorated and people suffered. Those who spoke up were condemned.

What happened in those early days in the LC's will never be repeated there, much the same as the exclusive Brethren have been discussing their early days of blessing for almost 160 years.

[countmeworthy]

Indie wrote:
CMW, You do not know why? I hope you will come to know why. It is well-documented. For all those who don't know why, please refer to http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...coveryinUS.pdf just to begin to answer this question.

Indie, my question was more 'tongue and cheek'...rather than not really knowing. Still, Thanks for the link and I will read it and go through it this weekend.

Over the years, I have been around many, many Christians both in the LC and those who have never even heard of the LC.


My observation is the LCrs took the basic tools and put them in a box. "This is how we do things" "THIS is the 'God ordained way"...when all along it was Lee's ordained way"...and Lee blessed it. People then began to rely on his way of doing things, his interpretation of the Word as GOD'S WAY. When this happened, the anointing of the Holy Spirit and the Presence of God left the church. This is why most of Christendom is also 'dead'.

WE BELIEVERS ought to be the LIGHT of the WORLD. We've been crowned with the GLORY of GOD through the Lord Jesus! But most people only see glimpses of the Glory of God in the saints because we don't live immersed in the Presence of God. We don't study the Word enough and let the Holy Spirit teach us. We don't live 24/7 in the Presence of God. If we did, the flesh would remain crucified and WE would be impacting the world!

Awww..Come Lord Jesus. Come..and Come Quickly.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Initially, as Indiana states, the ministry of WL in the USA was Biblically based and therefore it was very fruitful. There also was a pouring out of the Spirit upon all believers in the late 60's / early 70's which made WL appear "larger than life" to those members

What happened in those early days in the LC's will never be repeated there, much the same as the exclusive Brethren have been discussing their early days of blessing for almost 160 years.

with your assessment Ohio. As you and everyone know by now.. my tenure by comparison was short.

In the first 6-12 months, I learned a lot. I grew in Christ with difficulty. In today's words...the church was 'meaty'. We ate MEAT...we were weaned off the milk very quickly. This is why many of us were LIVING.

Just before the Hebrews 'training', I prayed and asked the Lord to help me understand the book of Hebrews. Of all the books in the NT, aside from the book of Revelation, it was the hardest for me to understand.

Hebrews is one of my favorite books today. I have such a deep love for that book. I recall the power of the Holy Spirit, the anointing of the Holy Spirit fall on me in one meeting. I stood up to share from the book and I remember the incredible Peace that came upon me as I stood up. I shared for about 5 minutes and then I sensed the anointing lifting and thus I finished speaking.

The Peace remained me for a long time that day. Of course, we didn't talk or at least really understood what the Anointing of the Holy Spirit was...but in retrospect, that is what happened...the Anointing being a Powerful Presence of God on us...

As WL slowly introduced over time his own extra-biblical teachings and practices, things deteriorated and people suffered. Those who spoke up were condemned.

Hmmm...isn't there a warning somewhere in Revelation 22 ? :rollingeyes2:

18 .... If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

May God be merciful unto us and May He lead us in the path of Righteousness..so we are not deceived.

[Indiana]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Initially, as Indiana states, the ministry of WL in the USA was Biblically based and therefore it was very fruitful. There also was a pouring out of the Spirit upon all believers in the late 60's / early 70's which made WL appear "larger than life" to those members


CMW:
I agree with your assessment Ohio. As you and everyone know by now.. my tenure by comparison was short.
.................................................. .................................................. ...

by Indiana - Wherever there was a pouring out, it did not include everywhere and every believer, such as at the Hays Park Methodist church in Spokane, my hometown. It also did not include the Bob Theme Bible Doctrine church in Houston where my brother attended and from where members of my family listened to doctrinal tapes. The pouring-out did not include many other Christian congregations and believers, which is why there was a stream out of various places around the country into local churches in the late 60s and early 70s.

Dick Taylor, the well-known elder in California, packed up his belongings in Wisconsin and moved to the West Coast. Don Klopfenstein, from Indiana, also packed up and moved to the West Coast. Bill Mallon and his wife were driving through the Mid-West and reading an early recovery book by Witness Lee as they traveled, when they had the definite calling by the Lord to head west to Los Angeles. A similar report came from Dwight and Ann Bond, who moved from Richland, WA to the church in Seattle in 1971. (Only Bill Mallon is not an elder today in the churches.)
I myself came out of a Seventh-Day Adventist church that had no move of the Spirit, and into the local church in Seattle in 1971.

There are too many stories like these, saints. The Spirit was not in every place and with every believer in the late 60s and early 70s. And, like the Welsh revival that lasted 6 only months before it dissipated, the once-prevailing but short-lived Jesus people movement ended (see below) and left the seeking ones in a desperate state – that is, until they found the churches.

Before the end of my first year in the church, 1971, my wife and I had dinner in the home of Bill and Patsy Freeman, whose free group had been attending meetings in LA and moved to Seattle for the church life. Patsy commented that she saw the local churches as containers of the Lord’s life, and asked if we did also. We did. Whereas in other places that proved not to be suffient to contain what was being poured out, the local churches were unique in a move of the Lord, in that they had come back to the proper ground for meeting as the church in their locality and as the proper containers for others to enter into and enjoy the poured-out Spirit.

Thus the blessing in the churches!

(Excerpt) This Generation: The End of a Search

...THEN IT HAPPENED – THE YOUTH MOVEMENT TOUCHED JESUS! A spark was ignited on the West Coast – a spark which was soon a conflagration sweeping across the entire country. Nobody had expected it! Nobody had thought it possible! But there it was – We had hooked into JESUS – THE LIVING JESUS – THE PERSON JESUS – JESUS HIMSELF....

....The summer of 1969 was wild! Jesus communes springing up all over – from San Diego to Spokane – from San Francisco to New York! We were on the move! Surging Forward! Nothing it seemed could stop us!

But Summer passed into Fall and with the change of seasons, a growing uneasiness crept into many of us. We were losing the spontaneity. Something was smothering us.

Throughout the early months of 1970 and into the Spring, we watched the Movement sink back.

The love and oneness which just one year earlier had flowed so easily began to give way before an onslaught of petty jealousies and silly doctrinal squabbles. Bickering and backbiting were setting in. We were pushing the gifts hard: We had to keep things pumped up; we had to maintain our momentum. We grew sick with disappointment. We knew that we had found the mark of our generation, but we were letting it slip away! We were losing it before our generation had turned completely toward it – before we had all been able to fully link up with it.

IT WAS NOW SUMMERTIME 1970! We were waiting for God to move – to do something to redeem our calling. June and July slipped past and still no change. But then in August some of us caught word of what was happening on the West Coast. People were gathering – people who loved the Lord. They were gathering from all over the country, from all over the world. We went to see! What we saw astonished us! The people we met were still on fire! Still pounding with excitement! Still charged with purpose! The joy and freshness that had been ours once again coursed into us. We were back – back with Jesus! Back with the person who had reached out and caught us two years earlier. Once again we had the new wine to bring to our generation!

What fools we had been! We had poured our new wine into old wineskins – the worn cisterns of traditional Christian religion. The wineskins had ripped! And our new wine had drained away!

Our experience in those days drove home one point. We can never forget it: Jesus is not contained in teachings – however good; ceremonies -- however descriptive; gifts – however mighty. The teachings can point to Jesus, but the teachings are not JESUS HIMSELF! The ceremonies can symbolize Jesus – but ceremonies and rituals are not THE PERSON JESUS! The gifts can exemplify the power of Jesus – but the gifts are not the GIVER and the power of Jesus and JESUS are not the same! Prophesies fail, tongues cease, knowledge vanishes away – BUT JESUS – JESUS HIMSELF – IS TODAY, TOMORROW, AND FOREVER!

When we were children, we spoke as children, we understood as children, we thought as children; but if we were to become men, we had to put away childish things. THE TIME HAD COME FOR US TO PUT AWAY A DECAYING RELIGION!

God was preparing a NEW WINESKIN! The people we saw really had it together. They were solid! Not each on his own trip! They were jelled! Really close! Built up! They were ONE!

But their oneness was not organized. There was nobody telling them what to do, how to act, what to wear, what to think. It did not depend on a set of by-laws! It was a oneness that flowed from the presence and reality of God. They were united not by a religious credo but by the one fountain of living waters from which they all drank, the one spiritual meat they all ate, and the one love they all shared – JESUS!

“There was no joining”! We were already “in”! We were brothers and sisters by virtue of the same life we shared. We all had been born into Jesus! We all had been born into each other!

WE HAD FOUND THE CHURCHES – the new wineskins that God was establishing in every city of this country!

Our appetite for God had enlarged. We had been led to a well that not only quenched our thirst for Jesus, but also heightened our desire for Him, deepened our love for Him, and sharpened our yearning for Him. We were drawing upon a richness of Jesus that we had never known was there – a hidden wealth implanted within at the time of our new birth, but never before revealed.

The meetings brimmed with rejoicing and spilled over with love. Gone was the imprint of one man’s personality! All of us could share. All of us did share. Together we enthroned God upon our praises. Together we released a flood of thanks. Jesus flowed from all of us – from the least to the greatest. And the joy of one was the joy of all – in the suffering of one, we all suffered.

Our lives merged with the lives of our brothers – we found our being in their being, our inheritance in their inheritance, our portion in their portion. No longer was our gaze fastened upon the weaknesses and frailties of our brothers. It seized upon the Jesus that had been wrought into them, it saw through to the permanence of His victory.

Two years have elapsed now since the summer of 1970. In those two years, more and more of our generation have discovered the churches!

This Generation
http://www.lordsrecovery.us/the%20en...a%20search.htm

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

The previous post is really an odd and myopic take on church history.

First of all the Spirit is with every believer in every place. Second Lee's ministry was no more or less "bible-based" from one decade to the next i.e. he just used the bible to "justify" whatever he wanted to do. Third his ministry was not that fruitful esp if you are measuring it by numbers. In the USA there are some single location churches that have more people than his entire movement across the whole country after 50+ years! Finally the Jesus people movement did not dissipate. Leaders in it e.g. Chuck Smith, etc. went on and actually did have very fruitful ministries.

[Indiana]

Such is the rationale of DJohnson.

[countmeworthy]

.................................................. .................................................. ...

by Indiana -

Wherever there was a pouring out, it did not include everywhere and every believer, such as at the Hays Park Methodist church in Spokane, my hometown. It also did not include the Bob Theme Bible Doctrine church in Houston where my brother attended and from where members of my family listened to doctrinal tapes. The pouring-out did not include many other Christian congregations and believers, which is why there was a stream out of various places around the country into local churches in the late 60s and early 70s.

Indie,
First off, most of us are a little 'older' and hopefully WISER!

Yes..there was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the 70s' especially..but there was also a lot of leaven.. a lot of carnality mixed with it..which is why the many people did not grow into the stature of Christ they should have.

Dick Taylor, the well-known elder in California, packed up his belongings in Wisconsin and moved to the West Coast. Don Klopfenstein, from Indiana, also packed up and moved to the West Coast. Bill Mallon and his wife were driving through the Mid-West and reading an early recovery book by Witness Lee as they traveled, when they had the definite calling by the Lord to head west to Los Angeles. A similar report came from Dwight and Ann Bond, who moved from Richland, WA to the church in Seattle in 1971. (Only Bill Mallon is not an elder today in the churches.)

In 1975, I left my roots, my Caldea, like Abraham. I was searching for something but didn't know what...I was searching for 2 things.. Christ Jesus as my Savior and LORD, and I was searching for the city whose Builder and Maker is GOD.

The LC was a my pit stop. It was a pitstop for many of us. We're still so-journeying and are moving closer to the Holy City New Jerusalem...the city whose Builder and Maker is God.

I myself came out of a Seventh-Day Adventist church that had no move of the Spirit, and into the local church in Seattle in 1971.

I came out of the RCC and there was no move of the Spirit there either!

The Spirit was not in every place and with every believer in the late 60s and early 70s. And, like the Welsh revival that lasted 6 only months before it dissipated, the once-prevailing but short-lived Jesus people movement ended

My guess--the reason for this is because people remained carnal or became religious. The Word of God has not changed!

left the seeking ones in a desperate state – that is, until they found the churches.

I do believe the Spirit was there. I learned a lot and grew a lot in the Word and in Christ and in Fellowship. I'm grateful for my time there...and look at so many of us now!!?!! Many of us who left the LC have reconnected in a peculiar way..our journeys are different, yet the same... we share the good time memories and the not so good times. There is a reason God has re-connected us even if its only via Cyberspace.

Before the end of my first year in the church, 1971, my wife and I had dinner in the home of Bill and Patsy Freeman, whose free group had been attending meetings in LA and moved to Seattle for the church life. Patsy commented that she saw the local churches as containers of the Lord’s life, and asked if we did also. We did.

Sounds like your time with Bill and Patsy were good but there's a lot of un-Christlike behavior that came forth from them from what I've read. Brett and Brad Barber had horrific experiences with the Freemans. God forgive and heal them all..and everyone in between.)

Thus the blessing in the churches!

...yeah....Until people suffocated under the control of Brother Lee's ministy for the sake of "ONENESS, and the ground of the church"...When it became all about Brother Lee to me, I left. Why do you think sooo many people have left... people who had been lifers!

I think the reason my church in SD was healthy overall was there was not a LOT of emphasis on Brother Lee when I first arrived. It was Christ centered. It was BIBLE centered. Yes Brother Lee was mentioned but my fellowship didn't come from Lee one on one...it came from the saints who talked about the Lord and who read the Word with me. The elders in my locality were my spiritual parents not Lee. I'll always be thankful for them.

[Indiana]

Dear Count,

You are one of the most positive and effervescent people on the planet, let alone among all Christians, anywhere around the globe.

Why, then, when I share something about a specific period of time, can you not simply acknowledge the good, and have praise?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Dear Count,

You are one of the most positive and effervescent people on the planet, let alone among all Christians, anywhere around the globe.

Why, then, when I share something about a specific period of time, can you not simply acknowledge the good, and have praise?

Refresh my memory brother Indiana. What specific time are you referring to? I have stated over & over again, my tenure in the LC from 1975-1978/79ish was over all positive. I did not experience the horrendous things many of the saints did.

What was turning me off about the time I left, is the adulation Brother Lee was getting. It was turning from Christ and the church to Lee & the church. It continues today. There are other neusances and I've mentioned them throughout my commentaries.

So what specific time are you referring to that I don't acknowledge the good & have praise ?

P.S. Thanks for the kind and uplifting words.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I think the reason my church in SD was healthy overall was there was not a LOT of emphasis on Brother Lee when I first arrived. It was Christ centered. It was BIBLE centered. Yes Brother Lee was mentioned but my fellowship didn't come from Lee one on one...it came from the saints who talked about the Lord and who read the Word with me. The elders in my locality were my spiritual parents not Lee. I'll always be thankful for them.

CMW, the above quote is similar to my experience as a high school brother in SB, CA (1982-1986). The only time I'd hear references to WL was when a conference or training was coming up. Otheriwse it was Christ centered. It was an atmosphere I had no hesitation inviting classmates from school. I can't say I had any "spiritual parents", but my serving brothers were ones who had a role leading up to my judicial salvation.

Terry

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I do believe the Spirit was there. I learned a lot and grew a lot in the Word and in Christ and in Fellowship. I'm grateful for my time there...and look at so many of us now!!?!! Many of us who left the LC have reconnected in a peculiar way..our journeys are different, yet the same... we share the good time memories and the not so good times.

As we potentially enter a new Cold War era with the threat of nuclear annihilation a possibility in our minds, could there be another spiritual awakening similar to the 70's?

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

As we potentially enter a new Cold War era with the threat of nuclear annihilation a possibility in our minds, could there be another spiritual awakening similar to the 70's?

I think there has been the last few years, deconstruction is really popular amongst those raised in Christianity. People are examining their beliefs next to the Bible and realizing how much mans thought has been placed on the text. I’d argue that in west, the church has been awaking. Stats show that world wide Christianity is growing globally.

Anecdotally being under the age of 40, lots of people I know in the recovery under that age are questioning the Lord’s Recovery teachings.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

As we potentially enter a new Cold War era with the threat of nuclear annihilation a possibility in our minds, could there be another spiritual awakening similar to the 70's?

It will be far greater than that of the 70’s. It will be as it was in the early days of the book of Acts.

When it will happen is yet to be seen. I believe it will begin with the 144,000 bond servants described in Revelation 7.