08-17-2011, 12:33 PM | #1 |
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Witness Lee Theatrics
I remember a conference where Witness Lee went into a rant saying something like : "This is not about me. This is not even about the Bible."
Then he proceeded to tear up the Bible in his hand, and threw it on the stage, and stomped on it, to make his point. It was very theatrical. Once also, don't remember his point, but he claimed that it wasn't easy to push him down, and had a young brother come upon the stage to try to push him down ... and after many attempts he couldn't. So was theatrics used by Lee to push his message? Was Lee not just a lay preacher, but a performer as well? Anyone else remember any of Lee's theatrics?
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08-17-2011, 01:00 PM | #2 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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08-17-2011, 03:02 PM | #3 | ||
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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What I want to know is what translation he tore up. Did Lee ever refer to the RcV as the "Bible" or simply the 'RcV' ? I find it very hard for him to tear up the RcV but not hard to believe he tore up the KJ or NASB which were the two translations used in the 60s/70s. Does anyone know ?
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08-17-2011, 03:20 PM | #4 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
It was a L.A. conference, before Anaheim. Date? Gosh ... prolly around 74 or 75 ... maybe 73 ... somewhere around then.
I'll tell you that at the time it blew my mind ... but growing up in the Southern Baptist, who would never do such a thing, I liked it. But it was clearly theatrics ... Lee liked to be flamboyant at times. It was part of his charm ....
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08-17-2011, 03:23 PM | #5 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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And nice to hear from you CMW .... hope all is well with you. Hope & pray yer RA is under control ...
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08-17-2011, 03:55 PM | #6 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
I remember the second incident where WL told the brother to push him down. I remember him going on at length about his walking and Tai Chi regimen and boasting how strong he was. I also recall that he would get very angry sometimes and turn red. What about the Lord's Table Meeting in Ohio? Remember that?
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08-17-2011, 04:43 PM | #7 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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Saints brought bongos and cymbals and Congo drums. The meetings were rockin. This Lord's table started the normal way. With a table in the center of the meeting where bread and wine was placed. Before it got started, a brother jumped up and said something like, "We're not religious," and went up and turned the table upside down, and put the bread and wine on it. And songs were called, and with all the instruments the place started rockin. I remember it got so carried away that we all formed a train line, and were praising the Lord in dance. I remember the bread and wine being passed around during the dance, down the train line. I remember seeing John Ingalls with a pitcher of wine, and because of the dancing the wine was sloshing around out of the pitcher. And saints were drinking right out of the pitcher. It was a great time. But when report went back to Witness Lee, he put the kibosh on it all, and ordered the bongos, cymbals, and Congo drums out of the meetings. It was such a letdown. I remember after that, standing outside the meetings, on a balcony, with great disappointment thinking : why can't we enjoy the Lord in song and dance? What was so bad about it? Witness Lee could be theatrical, but we couldn't....
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08-17-2011, 04:57 PM | #8 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
So, zeek, what would you guys think when he would behave this way? Surely the spell wasn't quite that strong, I mean, this made a lot of folks uncomfortable, right?
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08-17-2011, 06:47 PM | #9 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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He truly disrespected God because EL SHADDAI is revealed in the Scriptures by the Spirit. The problem w/the world, thanks to the 'church' is the people of God have stopped reading/studying the Holy Bible for themselves. They have stopped, praying/asking the Lord to help them understand His Word, to Shine His Light on what they/we are reading. It's much simpler to let a Lee or a pulpit teacher/preacher explain it. Sit back & 'enjoy' the Lord...uh, rather the show. Thanks for asking about me "A". I am doing exceedingly well !! I am on a monthly infusion for the RA and I feel absolutely GREAT! It took it long enough to kick in though ! But now I feel, walk & look normal again 99 percent of the time!!!
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08-18-2011, 06:02 AM | #10 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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I think we forget that until only fairly recently, most of the average population couldn't read anything. There was a reason that Jesus called a group, and singled out 12 of those as they all followed along. In the end, a few were given to regular study and teaching while the rest learned and lived by what they learned. It was part of that first church in which they devoted themselves to certain things, one of which the apostles' teaching in the temple. Even Paul did not write to the various churches to point out to them the truths that they had gleaned from their personal studies. It was always in reference to what he or others taught them. Or to be on the watch for people teaching different/inconsistent from/with what they first learned. This "self feeding" idea is only partly sound. There is always a need for those who have learned from those who have learned from . . . . You get the picture. While the RCC's claim of a direct link to Peter is a contrived thing much like the doctrine of dirt, there really is a link to the original. But now that virtually everyone can read the Bible, we think that we should be primarily responsible for figuring it out for ourselves. We are so enamored with this notion that we can get along without teachers/preachers. But we can't. We wouldn't agree enough to meet with anyone but ourselves if we were left to our own devices. And based on some comments that come through occasionally, some of us are barely tolerating that evil clergy-laity system that rules even the congregation we are sort of a part of (kind of rhymes). Surely we should be reading the word if we are capable of it. But it should mostly be within a framework of teaching that comes from someone(s) else. I think that Paul's discussions with various churches, most notably Corinth, sort of underscores this. In 1 Corinthians 3 he intentionally separates the teachers (workers/builders) from the farm/building. That does not make us not workers at any level. But we work according to what the Workers teach us. Stated another way, there are some apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers for the perfecting of the saints. In other words, the saints are not self-teaching. I do not say that we should not "self-feed" but that it is within the framework of what we are taught. It is not the source of our teaching, but the support of it. Despite the kind of mentality that we got from the LRC to be self-feeding toward our own perfection, note that even there it was targeted to underscore the "ministry" of Lee. We were told one thing in clear words but a different thing in many veiled words that made us just like everyone else. Even they are reading to strengthen the teaching they are given. Their problem is not that they do not read/study in the right way. It is that they are learning from some whose work will not stand the test of fire. I do not say that they do not suffer for it. But the main one(s) to suffer will be those that teach it. No matter how "off the mark" we think Lee and the LRC are, they are Christian and most of them are diligently obedient to their leadership. They just didn't realize that their leaders came into the sheep pen "over the fence." Not through the gate. And they managed to steal a few sheep. Some of those are earthly family to me. Most of us should be reading and "self-feeding" based on an underpinning of someone else's teaching. Even those who would be teachers are taught by others before them. There really is a link to the start. And it doesn't have funny names like "recovery" or "apostolic succession."
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08-18-2011, 08:15 AM | #11 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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08-18-2011, 08:30 AM | #12 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
The spell was strong. I didn't see the Bible ripping incident. When Lee performed his feats of strength, I was impressed with his fitness given his age. Sometimes when he expressed rage, I was bothered by what I perceived to be Lee's mean spiritedness from time to time. Jimmy Swaggert had a similar effect on me. It didn't seem to make anyone else uncomfortable because we were not allowed to critique Lee's sermons afterward so I don't know what others thought. When people did speak up it was invariably supportive of whatever Lee did or said. I'm pretty sure no one knew how I felt either.
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08-18-2011, 09:04 AM | #13 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
And that's very funny. Eating the deity? That's certainly not a Jewish/Torah thing. But it does fit squarely into the pagan practices/ideology.
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08-18-2011, 10:13 AM | #14 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
Oh puleeease, read John chapter 6.
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08-18-2011, 10:21 AM | #15 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
Oh puleeease yer self. The anonymous book attributed to John was written long after the apostle Paul had established his gentile deity eating churches, that had to influence/impress the gospels writers later, and shaped their opinion of deity eating. You can be sure, the Hebrews would have nothing to do with deity eating....they didn't even turn Moses into a deity. Deity eating did not come from Jewish heritage. It comes from the mystery religions ... it's pagan for sure....
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08-18-2011, 10:30 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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The rock that followed them was Christ. Within the ark of the covenant they stored some manna. Their was a shewbread table in the temple. I think the eating and drinking of Christ is firmly embedded in the OT stories. Perhaps allegorical, maybe not. And it was in Matthew that Jesus said that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God.
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08-18-2011, 10:56 AM | #17 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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Brother awareness, I just don't see how all your extra-Biblical research after leaving the LC has helped your faith. I'm not just saying this to get on your case. Yes, I agree that LC craziness can be deceptive and has little value, but you follow these atheists, doubters, and skeptics way too far. The Lord Jesus Himself told us, (6.57) "so he who eats Me shall also live because of Me." Sure, some disciples were stumbled by this phrase, and later the Lord said, "It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."
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08-18-2011, 10:57 AM | #18 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
What we are dealing with is a metaphor. Jesus used them a lot. Metaphors should be taken as metaphors and not as "literals". Taking a metaphor as a literal can be dangerous. Take for example Martin Luther and his views regarding transubstantiation. "Take eat this is my body" was not meant to be taken literally anymore then "pluck out your eye and throw it from you". Yet we see a very wise and educated Luther siting before others repeating this metaphor over and over, as if this could prove that it was to be taken as a literal.
Witness Lee took this one step further and fell into another kind of error - he made a metaphor out of a metaphor. "Hallelujah eating Jesus is the way!". Jesus never said this and neither was this taught by the early apostles. Jesus said "I am the Way" - NOT "eating me is the way". So we all kind of bypassed "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" and went straight to "We have found the way to live by Christ, pray his Word and call his Name!" Of course many of us now know that this is not the way to live by Christ at all. (but this is an argument for another day) In my view, taking a metaphor literally (Luther and transubstantiation) can be dangerous and so can making a metaphor out of a metaphor (eating Jesus is the way).
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08-18-2011, 11:11 AM | #19 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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My reaction : 'You've got to be kidding me.' Transubstantiation? You've got to me kidding me. Not to mention the cannibalism and vampire implications. Eating the deity? Only man could invent such a thing....and did ... long before Jesus. Even the Aztecs, that had nothing to do with the Jews, the Bible, or Jesus believed in eating their deities. It's called "Theophagy" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophagy
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08-18-2011, 12:10 PM | #20 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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08-18-2011, 12:16 PM | #21 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
The Torah is the OT. The ark of the covenant is a type of Christ, and it contains the manna.
The shewbread and the offerings were performed by the priesthood. These offerings are also a type of Christ. Jesus is the Lamb of God, Jesus is a sin offering, a peace offering, etc. So the idea that the concept of eating Christ was unique to the gospel of John and completely absent from the Jewish Torah is not accurate. I find it very difficult to believe that any Christian would have an issue with referring to Jesus as our sin offering. The sin offering according to the Torah, was to be eaten.
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08-18-2011, 12:17 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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08-18-2011, 12:20 PM | #23 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
The OT uses the allegory that God is a husband and his people are his bride. The Song of Songs is very allegorical. The OT is rich with figurative language and speech. Read the Talmud and you can see that Rabbinical teaching loves to use allegories to explain a concept. The expression "fiddler on a roof" is figurative language.
Surely you are not suggesting that figurative language is the domain of Christians! I am sure that the Jews would be highly offended at that suggestion.
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08-18-2011, 12:22 PM | #24 |
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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08-18-2011, 12:26 PM | #25 | |||||||||||||
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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There are a few comments on your post I want to address. Some of which I'm not sure I understand completely your thoughts or observations. Your comment of 'me & my bible' for instance. Not that this particular comment ruffled any of my feathers, but for the purpose of clarification, I do glean a lot from preachers/teachers I hold in high regard for their faithfullness to the Word. Many have traveled to Israel many, many times over as well as throughout the world and their experiences have enlightened me immensely. Others are truly gifted speakers who clearly explain the meaning of the scriptures. I hold many in high esteem. Lee, to my knowledge, for all that is worth, to my recollection did not travel even once to Israel but considered himself and by his followers an expert on the bible. The 'shoulders' he stood on did not include any who brought thousands, if not millions to Christ such as Billy Graham and others who did not have the vision of 'the church' or the 'Lord's Recovery'. Quote:
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While there are wolves in sheep's clothing, the closer we are to God through His Word, by His Holy Spirit Who gives us understanding and clarity, we are learning to be discerning. This forum has given us the freedom to criticize as well as to openly appreciate what we learned from Lee & his teachings. Quote:
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I believe there were divisions and I believe it is likely because of divisions, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers came about. Quote:
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Good post OBM!
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08-18-2011, 01:23 PM | #26 | ||||||||
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Re: Witness Lee Theatrics
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My comment is meant to indicate that what we are able to do cannot be presumed as the standard by which everyone in Christian history is gaged because they were totally incapable of it. Quote:
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That is the point. Quote:
Actually, pointing to the RCC, denominations, bible colleges, and "pay for an ordination" regimes does not address what Paul was talking about in Ephesians. I might get in trouble with some, but I would suggest that overall there is more sound understanding of Christ and His mission for us through the various methods of transferring existing knowledge from person to person, even within the RCC, than there is in a "me and my bible" world. I can't prove it. But it might be true. I am becoming more and more convinced that one of the things we learned from the LRC and so often still cling to is a sense of superior knowledge concerning anything organized in Christianity, from seminaries (bad) to clergy (bad) to liturgies (bad) and the RCC (whore of Babylon bad). And I'm not sure that it is doing us any good. Especially that last one. Yes, there are some things that I have a problem with in the RCC's practices. But if we try to argue that the RCC is one of those seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, then they are a church, not the whore of Babylon. It still is a conflict in my being. It sticks in my craw at times. But I'm not sure that we were taught correctly. Yet we (and sometimes, still even I) speak as if it is a certainty. Quote:
Learning from those who learn from others, etc., back to the beginning is not bad. In fact, it would seem to be expected. Think of the references to the "customs" and ways of the church recorded in scripture. Not a lot of them, but they are there. And that "apostles' teaching" thing was from the very beginning. Anything else was a different gospel. But in the case of the LRC, there was a significant break in the progression of teaching. Both Nee and Lee took on isolated ways. Nee was not as arrogant as Lee, but he openly suggested that his writings were unique. Full of things that no one had seen before. In other words, teachings that were not from the apostles. That was the error. Not the format, but the content. I won't comment on your pentecostal preachers demanding evidence of tongues. I was raised in one of those. There is a new breed of charismatic group that accepts the existence of those gifts but does not presume superiority on them or demand that they be everyone's gift. I am not part of that either, though I think I can live with that. I prefer to be apart from those things even though I am not simply a cessationist. As I noted to KTS yesterday, I am not prone to flowery, spiritual speech. But I do not despise it unless I sense trickery in it. (Master is trixsy!!) Continue in what you are learning. Be rich in love and good works. And I'm sure that you are as you are able.
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