Ephesians 5:22-24

[TLFisher]

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

What do these verses mean practically for married couples?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

What do these verses mean practically for married couples?

Better ask the sisters about these verses, now is the time for them to teach us.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Better ask the sisters about these verses, now is the time for them to teach us.

Yes! I would like to receive from our sisters. Especially concerning these two verses.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Terry

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

What do these verses mean practically for married couples?

First of all it helps to realize that we are all fallen and broken people living in a fallen and broken world. One day God will “make all things new”. Not only will we be fully redeemed, the world around us will be redeemed as well. Then will come the ultimate redemption of our surroundings – “A new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away” (Rev 21:1) For right now we must deal with the first earth. Really and truly we are people of this first earth. All of our human relationships, including (if not especially) our relationship with our spouse must be considered in the light of this reality.

So two fallen, broken people come together. Hopefully they are two saved believers – but we must remember that we are still fallen and broken, still living in a fallen and broken world. I think the answer to your question lies in seeing how Christ interacted with his followers while he among us in flesh and blood. Though He was not fallen or broken, we are still called to be like Him, even if it is a kind of “imitation”.

To me the most important part of this verse is “As Christ also”. As Christ also what? How did Christ treat his earliest followers, who, after all, were the first church. How did he speak with them? How did he interact with them? How did he love them? How did he protect them? How did he provide for them? How did he teach them? The answer to all these questions can be found in the gospels. It’s all recorded for us to read and learn from. And all of this was recorded while Christ was here on the first earth, dealing with and interacting with fallen and broken people, just like us.

As husbands, we are called to take the initiative – to love and to serve and to provide, just as Christ did when he was here with us. If we do this, albeit as best we can in this fallen and broken world, the wives will be “subject” (so to speak) to our loving and serving and providing. Why wouldn’t they? Even if they are just doing it in self interest (remember they are fallen and broken too) it will all be honored and blessed by God, just as God honors and blesses the husband’s loving and serving and providing.

In retrospect we now know that Witness Lee did not teach a biblical, healthy view of human relationships – and marriage certainly tops the list here. He over-spiritualized some aspects of marriage and grossly under-appreciated others. No doubt some of this comes from Lee’s bent towards the Chinese culture (though he vehemently denied such) Nevertheless, all we have to do is look at the fruit. Now, thanks to the Internet and forums like this one, we know that the Local Churches did not prove to be very fertile ground for healthy marriages – in fact it seems to have been quite the opposite.

Many of us found out tout de suite (that would be right quick for ya’ll) that going to 3 or 4 meetings a week, doing “morning watch” every morning at 6am and calling “oh Lord Jesus” all day was not conducive to growing a happy, healthy marriage. Of course growing happy, healthy marriages was not a priority in the “church life”, but it should have been. Why? Marriages and family are the building blocks of the church. Why do you think Satan has done his best to destroy the family in modern society? If there are no families there is no church, and if there is no church – well you get the rest of the story.

Ok, sorry Terry I’m wondering (UntoHim wonder, say it ain’t so!) Husbands, let us imitate Christ and then I guarantee you that we will find our wives subjecting themselves as the church is subject to Christ. It’s amazing how it all comes together – just like the Word says.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Many of us found out tout de suite (that would be right quick for ya’ll) that going to 3 or 4 meetings a week, doing “morning watch” every morning at 6am and calling “oh Lord Jesus” all day was not conducive to growing a happy, healthy marriage. Of course growing happy, healthy marriages was not a priority in the “church life”, but it should have been. Why? Marriages and family are the building blocks of the church. Why do you think Satan has done his best to destroy the family in modern society? If there are no families there is no church, and if there is no church – well you get the rest of the story.

There was something that came between the relationship of husband and wife. In Your post untohim is the outward expression from a brothers point of view. What did sisters think while their husbands spend some many evenings a week away from home. Neglected? Taken for granted?

Verse 25 says, Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Based on your post UntoHim, I generally believe brothers do love their wives. Their actions suggest as much as they love their wives, love for the ministry supercedes their love for their wife. As Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, would husbands give up their love of the ministry for their wife?

How many marriages disintegrated not because of infidelity, another unmentionable sin, but over preference of ministry. This is that something that came between the marriage covenant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Their actions suggest as much as they love their wives, love for the ministry supersedes their love for their wife.

The LRC program, for many brothers, went to the very core of their own identity as people. Though they may truly love their wives and families, that marriage and family may not define who they are. The attachment they feel for the ministry and the church may actually supersede their attachment to their wife. I witnessed many brothers who were often encouraged just to do the minimal necessary to keep their wives "contented."

Originally Posted by Terry

How many marriages disintegrated not because of infidelity, another unmentionable sin, but over preference of ministry. This is that something that came between the marriage covenant.

Let's reword this question another way, one I have considered before. How many brothers (or sisters) in the church, perhaps without even consciously considering it, actually sought out affections from another woman (or man,) who was not their spouse, as a part of a total exit strategy?

Our pitiful flesh, when confined by the chains of religion traditions and legalistic regulations will often seek freedom, regardless of the consequences. The power of fear only works so long.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

What do these verses mean practically for married couples?

I think the biggest issue we had as a married couple was agreeing on the way to raise our kids.

We are all naturally prone to rebellion, it is part of our flesh. Therefore, as a father, I inoculated my kids against rebellion. I am a little hesitant to share the experience because I expect many will jump up and down and start hyperventilating without reading it through carefully. My wife certainly went ballistic. But, I would say this, at the end of Ephesians 5 it says that the wife should make sure that she reverence her husband. I think it is fair to say that not only my wife but pretty much everyone in her family reverences the way in which the kids were raised. What was even more dramatic in our case is that the kids were raised by their mother in Taiwan until they were 10 and then sent to live with me because the problems were becoming very evident. At that point she gave up control, I took over, and we had a 180 degree turn around.

Also, let me add this, I am a high school teacher in NYC. I see every kind of rebellion their is from teenagers, but I also see the kids that reverence their teachers and are in subjection to them. It is always an extremely powerful testimony both ways. Those that are in subjection and reverence their teachers make a very powerful testimony to the home situation and the way their parents raised them. Those that are rebellious, filthy, fornicators, etc. also make a powerful testimony to the home situation that they are raised in. I think all teachers would agree, we can value a family not by income, or education, or religion, etc. but by looking at the way the kids conduct themselves in the school. In the same way you can see what the husband is really like just by looking at the behavior of the wife.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Terry

How many marriages disintegrated not because of infidelity, another unmentionable sin, but over preference of ministry. This is that something that came between the marriage covenant.

Preference for hearing, repeating and singing the words of Witness Lee IS (to a degree) a form of infidelity by way of abdication of a husband’s natural responsibility to his wife and family. Of course we were taught that God was going to honor and bless all those hours in the meetings. "Take care of the meetings and God will take care of your marriage and family" was the general theme. This was a lie from the pit of hell and we know that now. We can’t change the past, what’s done is done, but we can warn other young men that they need to take care of their marriage and family FIRST. The wife comes FIRST before the church, the children come FIRST before the church. If your wife is not feeling well and you have small children STAY HOME and help your wife out. The meeting will take care of itself. There will be other meetings, God knows they have enough of them in the Local Church.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Of course we were taught that God was going to honor and bless all those hours in the meetings. "Take care of the meetings and God will take care of your marriage and family" was the general theme.

UntoHim, take that quote in conjunction with Ephesians 5:23 (with the husband being the head of the wife) being taken literally was a dysfunctional receipe.

Meaning the husband would assert himself as the head in all things. In opinions, in decisions, where to live, how to raise children, etc. A wife may want family time, have a husband to spend time with in the evenings, but if making the meetings becomes a legal matter, and if the brother really believes Take care of the meetings and God will take care of your marriage and family, what is he going to say when the wife requests a divorce?

I'm not being hypothetical here. This happened to a fmily friend of many years. His realization was he was too religious.
Practically if a husband does assert himself in all things, what is the wife reduced to? Her opinions do not matter. Her feelings do not matter. For all intent and purposes with this mindset, the wife has been reduced to keeping house and bearing children.

In closing I'd like to emphasize what UntoHim has posted.
We can’t change the past, what’s done is done, but we can warn other young men that they need to take care of their marriage and family FIRST. The wife comes FIRST before the church, the children come FIRST before the church. If your wife is not feeling well and you have small children STAY HOME and help your wife out.

[TLFisher]

For those brothers who expect their wives submit absolutely to them with the husbands as the head based on Ephesians 5:22, are these brothers just as insistent towards 1 Corinthains 14:34-35.
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Is there a double standard at work? I think so because there are brothers who expect their wives to submit to them as the head, but in the meetings they'll encourage their wives to prophesy. What I'm saying here is not about right or wrong, but an inconsistency in practices.

I italicized absolutely because I believe in many marriages, the husband in loving his wife, respects her opinion and feelings. The wife with her opinions and feelings will ultimately respect her husbands opinion even if it's not the same as hers. In such marriages there is not an absolute submission.
The concept I have in absolute submission could be interpreted as Lording over. Sisters such as the one I'm married to don't want to feel to be lorded over. Some I know who submit absolutely outwardly, they'll go to their friends and cry. In their concept to not be absolutely submissive is to be rebellious.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Terry

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

Brother, why did you stop quoting Scripture at this point? Should you not also have gone on with:

"25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself."

Too many have Lorded it over their wives, saying "See here, if you want to be a proper Christian wife you must SUBMIT to me!" - But did Christ treat His church this way? NEVER.

As husbands, we are called to love our wives as Christ loved the Church. Christ does not put us in subjegation, demanding obedience - and if you want to see what a husbands love is supposed to look like, read Song of Songs and see how greatly He values her.

This, you see, is ultimately a mutual submission. The husband loves his wife so that he would not demand anything of her she would not willing surrender; in order that she is not stumbled and may be preserved unblemished. Yes, as husbands we ought to be honored as the Church honors Christ - but we husbands ultimately have the higher calling and the greater responsibility: to love our wives as Christ loves the Church, and to DIE to ourselves for her.

And remember Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

One read of the gospels is enough to tell you that Christ valued His women as much as He valued His men - and both are heirs to His promise.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Brother, why did you stop quoting Scripture at this point? Should you not also have gone on with:

"25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Have you read post #5? I had gone head and included verse 25. My sense is in a proper marriage, a brother does not need to claim nor to assert authority. To do so indicates some shortcoming or insecurity.
Rather, your post indicates how a proper marriage should be.

The husband loves his wife so that he would not demand anything of her she would not willing surrender; in order that she is not stumbled and may be preserved unblemished.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Brother, why did you stop quoting Scripture at this point?

Too many have Lorded it over their wives, saying "See here, if you want to be a proper Christian wife you must SUBMIT to me!" - But did Christ treat His church this way? NEVER.

If we want to apply scripture to marriage, we must not single out selective and potentially manipulative verses. Paul also spoke this, "But he who is married cares for the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and is divided." (I Cor 7.33) Now there's a verse WL/LSM rarely taught from. Paul taught us to please our wives, and thus our time and attention may often be "divided." One of the ways to "please our wives" is to place a high priority on the children. Another way is to spend time with them according to their choosing. Paul's word "divided" is in contradiction to LSM's demands to be "absolute for Christ and the church."

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Terry

Have you read post #5?

Sorry Terry! I was too quick on the draw... ... and I didn't mean to sound like I was directing that entirely at you, just putting it out there for the record that this is one part of scripture too often half quoted.

Ray

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Sorry Terry! I was too quick on the draw... ... and I didn't mean to sound like I was directing that entirely at you, just putting it out there for the record that this is one part of scripture too often half quoted.

Ray

No prob Ray. When I consider Ephesians 5:25, what is it really for husbands to love their wife?
More than just being their provider and supporter. More than just being a life-long companion. Day by day, it's putting your wife's needs and wants before your own. It is loving selflessly.
True example, instead of buying a muscle car to drive on the weekends, you plan a trip for your wife to go home to see her parents whom she may not have seen since getting married.
Instead of going to a family reunion without your wife, the choice is made to stay home since she cannot attend.
For husbands to love their wives, love is shown not in just the obvious actions, but also in choices that are not so obvious.

[John]

Originally Posted by Terry

UntoHim, take that quote in conjunction with Ephesians 5:23 (with the husband being the head of the wife) being taken literally was a dysfunctional receipe.
Meaning the husband would assert himself as the head in all things.

Witness Lee and the elders gave us brothers some very bad models of behavior toward our Christian sisters (which includes our wives). Many of us are probably still trying to overcome bad habits that we picked up in the Local Church related to women; and, probably, many still do not even realize that our bad habits and attitudes are based likely on wrong interpretations of the Scripture.

Another bad habit that Witness Lee and the leaders taught us was to depend on Mr. Lee for all of our understanding of the Bible. After leaving that place, at some point in time, I began to investigate Bible passages for myself as well as fellowship with others about their understandings of Bible passages.

In what follows, I will provide my view of the meaning of the verses that Terry asks about in post #1, as well as the surrounding verses for context. Another bad habit that Witness Lee taught us was to focus on particular verses without regard for the context. After leaving the Local Church, there were certain verses that I could quote by rote but had little idea of the context in which they occurred.

It is wonderful what the Lord can show us when we simply read the Bible without Living Stream Ministry glasses on and without traditional interpretations controlling us. Let me add here that I am simply giving my understanding of these verses; I am not stating that I have it “right” or all figured out.

So, on to John’s Bible study of the second half of Ephesians 5:


Let’s get literal

My first step in Bible study is often to read the verses in question in the Concordant Literal New Testament, since it is very close to being a literal translation but still readable in English. In this case, Terry’s verses from post #1 read this way:

Let the wives be subject to their own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife even as Christ is Head of the ecclesia, and He is the Saviour of the body. Nevertheless, as the ecclesia is subject to Christ, thus are the wives also to their husbands in everything. (22–24, CLNT)

Note that this literal version begins with “Let.” In others words, the demeanor that the wife is to appropriate is not contingent upon the husband asserting himself, as Terry mentioned in the post I quoted from him. It is something that the husband lets the wife do of her own free will. This is extremely important.


Be a g[r]eek

My point about the lack of emphasis on the imperative to the wives is clearer when looking at a Greek interlinear version, which is a word-for-word translation from Greek to English. To show you what I’m talking about, I’ll include verse 21 with verse 22 from the Scripture 4 All website:

being under-set to one another in fear of God the wives to the own husbands be ye being under-set as to the Lord (21–22, S4A [www.scripture4all.org])

As you can see when comparing S4A with CLNT, even the word “let” and the decision to begin a new sentence with it by the CLNT translators is not a part of the original Greek text (at least not in the manuscripts that the S4A folks were using). The use of “Let” by the CLNT translators was their way of softening what the New King James translators had made into an emphatic, bold, direct command to the wives, which it really was not:

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (NKJV)

You can see in the preceding quotation that the NKJV boys put in a period after the word God and began a new sentence with a direct command to the wives, calling them out to submit to their husbands. Not only that, they even began a new paragraph to the wives with the effect of divorcing the wives’ voluntary attitude of submission from the preceding verse that tells us that we all are to be in submission (doesn’t seem to be much “new” here in the NKJV).


Words, words, words

As I look at Bible verses, I also look for words that may have different meanings than what I might normally expect. In this case, the big word to investigate is “submit.” We’ve already seen that it can be translated “under-set”; but, what did it mean historically in Paul’s day?

This word was a Greek military term meaning “to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader”. In non-military use, it was “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”. (www.blueletterbible.org)

So, guys, here’s another thing to contemplate: If you think that you are in a military-like marriage, a la Witness Lee’s Local Church marines, then maybe you can go with the military use of the word, issue orders to your wife, and expect her to obey your orders or suffer the consequences. No, no, no—I hope you don’t do that! Again, it should be a voluntary attitude that she displays, no different than what you might expect from a Christian brother if you asked him to cooperate with you in some way.


“Under-set”—to be or to do?

To me, when I think of a person being “under-set” to another, I don’t think of someone having to obey like a slave. It is simply a matter of a positional arrangement. The literal phraseology of “being under-set” makes it clear that we are to be in a state of being with one another in which we have an attitude of being under-set rather than taking some kind of action to show our “under-settedness.”

The Lord has under-set us one to another (v 21), and we are to be in that state. By the same token, wives are to be being under-set to their husbands (v 22). It is not that they have to take some action to prove their under-settedness. To put it another way, we could say that the wives are to allow themselves to be under-set (by the Lord, no doubt) to their husbands.


Context, context, context

Also, I like to look at a full context when considering what verses mean; so, for this exercise, let’s look at more verses in the CLNT. Here are the verses directly preceding Terry’s verses:

be filled full with spirit, speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and playing music in your hearts to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things, in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, to our God and Father, being subject to one another in the fear of Christ. (18b–21, CLNT)

So, if some husband thinks that he should “assert himself” with his wife and tell her what to do, he first needs to be in a certain condition: He needs to be filled in spirit, to be speaking in songs in his heart to the Lord, and to be giving thanks for all things to God. I would think that, because of the context, you would have to connect this imperative to the husbands as a pre-condition for what is to follow. Therefore, before we get to the under-setting, husbands need to be truly thanking God for their wives as they are being filled in spirit with a song in their heart. Brothers, this is how we are to relate to our wives, not require from them some kind of servile obedience.

In addition, to those of you who were in the Local Church during the time I was there, you will probably remember the “be ye being filled in spirit” translation, which is quite literal. What you might not have realized was how much this phrase is tied in with the husband-wife relationship. Witness Lee drummed his be-filled-in-spirit-by-calling perspective into us as if everything would work out in our lives by “calling on the name of the Lord.” As I found out, calling on the Lord “at my wife” was not conducive to a good marriage relationship.


What’s good for the boys is good for the girls

Paul states that we all are to be subject to one another. The subjection Paul was talking about for wives to their husbands is the same subjective posture that we brothers are to be taking with other brothers. It is also the same posture that we are to take with all Christians, including all of our Christian sisters. The submission is voluntary and one in which one party relinquishes his or her desires for those of another. Brothers, how often in a group of Christians do you adopt an attitude of under-settedness to the sisters?

Please realize, brother, that your wife is to be “under-setted” to you (v 22) just as you are to be under-setted to your fellow brothers and sisters (v 21). It’s the same Greek root word in both verses. For example, when you get with another Christian brother, are you under-setted to him, that is, are you in “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”? If you are not, why do you expect more from your wife? The imperative is the same in the Greek interlinear, and the demands are “next–door neighbors” to each other:

being under-set to one another in fear of God the wives to the own husbands be ye being under-set as to the Lord (21–22, S4A [www.scripture4all.org])

If you want to take the position that “undersetted” in verse 22 should be understood in the military sense of the word and that your wife must obey your every directive, then you must be willing, according to verse 21, to obey every directive that comes your way in the body of Christ, from either male or female, older or younger, etc., that is, if you want to apply the Bible consistently.

Grammatical sidebar: First off, I have not studied Greek grammar; I’m just reading the interlinear version in English and using my brain. So, here’s what makes sense to me, considering the way that the chapter wraps up. The punctuation could be changed so that the phrase, “in fear of God,” goes with the under-setting of the wives rather than with the under-setting of one another. Therefore, to punctuate the interlinear, we could have this:

… being under-set to one another. In fear of God, the wives to the own husbands be ye being under-set as to the Lord … (21–22, S4A [www.scripture4all.org])

I will refer to this again when I get to the last verse of the chapter.


Back to the verses in question

In sequence, let’s pick up again with Terry’s verses in the CLNT version:

Let the wives be subject to their own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife even as Christ is Head of the ecclesia, and He is the Saviour of the body. Nevertheless, as the ecclesia is subject to Christ, thus are the wives also to their husbands in everything. (22–24)

So, we husbands are to let our wives be subject to us, not require it of them. And the wives, then, adopt this attitude as to the Lord. By way of example, when my wife and I left the Local Church, she was afraid to leave because of all of the indoctrination she had received. To get out, she simply trusted the Lord and made the decision to go out with me (rather than become what she termed “a Local Church widow”). Therefore, when a wife has that attitude that you want, don’t forget that she has it as to the Lord. (It’s not that you’re necessarily so great, as in my case.)

Also, look at the last verse again. It says that “as the ecclesia is subject to Christ, thus are the wives to their own husbands in everything.” In other words, your wife’s posture toward you is waiting on your posture to Christ. Your wife’s attitude of submissiveness is a reflection of your submissiveness to Christ. Men sometimes say that they don’t get enough respect from their wives; but, as the saying goes, respect must be earned. Therefore, to earn respect, be someone worthy of respect, do something worthy of respect. For example, if you respect your wife’s thoughts and feelings, maybe she, in turn, will respect your decisions.


Wash in the Word

In addition to the verses which precede verses 22–24, we also have to look at the verses that come after them; so, here they are, still from the CLNT:

Husbands, be loving your wives according as Christ also loves the ecclesia, and gives Himself up for its sake, (25)

So, to love our wives is to be willing to die for them. For many brothers, I would think, to put your physical life on the line for your wife would be relatively easy. But what about the psychological and emotional part of your being? When you’re busy and she asks you to perform one of your responsibilities, like taking out the trash, what then? Does it become a slow and painful death? All of the questions in this post are rhetorical, by the way; please don’t try to give me answers to them. If you will, take them in prayer to the Lord. Here are the next verses:

that He should be hallowing it, cleansing it in the bath of the water (with His declaration), that He should be presenting to Himself a glorious ecclesia, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it may be holy and flawless. (26–27)

From the verse, we read that Christ is cleansing the ecclesia with His declaration, or, as the King James puts it, that He “might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.” Brothers, when was the last time you washed in the water of His word and then washed your wife in His word? Now, don’t let my wife know that I wrote this, but she has been speaking to me about my speaking the Word to her, or lack thereof. What we speak is important, so we need to speak the truth to our wives and about our wives. The principalities and powers need to hear the truth from our mouths. (And, by the way, this doesn’t mean that we pray-read “at our wives.”)


If church is important, love your wife

On, then, to the flesh or, better said, to our bodies:

Thus, the husbands also ought to be loving their own wives as their own bodies. He who is loving his own wife is loving himself. For no one at any time hates his own flesh, but is nurturing and cherishing it, according as Christ also the ecclesia, (28–29)

Now, we get down to it. Are you loving your wife as your own body? If so, you are loving yourself, which we are commanded to do, by the way (“love your neighbor as yourself”). Don’t you nurture and cherish your own body? In the same way, Christ nourishes and cherishes the ecclesia. We are to do the same with our wives.

for we are members of His body. For this "a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh." This secret is great: yet I am saying this as to Christ and as to the ecclesia. (30–32)

Why are we to be loving our wives in such a way, according to these verses? It is because we are all members of Christ’s body. So, if the body of Christ is really important to us, then we should be nurturing and cherishing—loving—our wives in the same way that Christ loves us. It is also because we are to be one flesh with our wives as examples of a foundational secret. A marriage should represent the union of Christ and His bride. Let’s live with our wives in such a way as to fulfill God’s intention. Instead of just talking about The Church, how about we actually take care of the church by really taking care of our wives?

Moreover, it’s fear

Finally, at the end of the chapter, Paul concludes with a “Moreover.”

Moreover, you also individually, each be loving his own wife thus, as himself, yet that the wife may be fearing the husband. (33)

To me, “Moreover” is like the word that introduces the grand finale to the section, the all-important wrap-up. So, after everything that he’s brought up, what does Paul emphasize at the end of this section? Firstly, he writes to each husband to be loving his own wife as himself. Then, he doesn’t mention to the wife to be being under-set to her husband. In fact, he doesn’t even state what she must do; he tells her what she may do, that is, to be “fearing” her husband. Remember my earlier grammatical note, that it is in fear of God that the wife has an attitude of under-settedness toward her husband. Here we see the re-emergence of that thought in a quick summary fashion.

And, back to words, to me, “fearing” does not have mainly the connotation of “reverence” or “respect” but of “awe,” in the sense of fearing God. Remember, in Paul’s presentation, the husband is positionally likened to Christ; so, I imagine that the wife is to fear the husband similar to the way that she would fear God. Therefore, to me, it is not really a matter of reverence, as if a husband should somehow be worthy of worship, or that a husband has earned respect by some deeds he has done; it is a matter that the wife fears the husband because she fears God.

So, brothers, let's allow our wives to follow the Lord and don’t expect that they will obey us. Leave the submission, subjection, respect, etc. up to them as they are being under-set. We need their help more than we know, which is why Eve came on the scene in the first place. Let's nurture our wives as best we can and focus on our submission to the Lord. He will take care of the rest.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by John

In what follows, I will provide my view of the meaning of the verses that Terry asks about in post #1, as well as the surrounding verses for context. Another bad habit that Witness Lee taught us was to focus on particular verses without regard for the context.

So, guys, here’s another thing to contemplate: If you think that you are in a military-like marriage, a la Witness Lee’s Local Church marines, then maybe you can go with the military use of the word, issue orders to your wife, and expect her to obey your orders or suffer the consequences. No, no, no—I hope you don’t do that! Again, it should be a voluntary attitude that she displays, no different than what you might expect from a Christian brother if you asked him to cooperate with you in some way.

If you want to take the position that “undersetted” in verse 22 should be understood in the military sense of the word and that your wife must obey your every directive, then you must be willing, according to verse 21, to obey every directive that comes your way in the body of Christ, from either male or female, older or younger, etc., that is, if you want to apply the Bible consistently.

So, to love our wives is to be willing to die for them. For many brothers, I would think, to put your physical life on the line for your wife would be relatively easy. But what about the psychological and emotional part of your being? When you’re busy and she asks you to perform one of your responsibilities, like taking out the trash, what then? Does it become a slow and painful death?

So, brothers, let's allow our wives to follow the Lord and don’t expect that they will obey us. Leave the submission, subjection, respect, etc. up to them as they are being under-set. We need their help more than we know, which is why Eve came on the scene in the first place. Let's nurture our wives as best we can and focus on our submission to the Lord. He will take care of the rest.

So much said and well said John. Speak about context. I have been told the samething by a former lc elder in my geographic region. How usage of verses have been taken out of context. For example 1 Corinthians 14:26. Taken out of context from the rest of 1 Corinthians 14. That's just one example.

Loving our wives, that we would physically die for them. Most brothers would say they would, realizing having to follow through is extremely unlikely. How about psychologically or emotionally?
How about the brother married to a criticizing sister? Isn't he dying for her emotionally daily?
What about the brother whose wife gets upset with him, not for what he did, but for what he didn't do? He's dying for her psychologically. For most men (believers or non-believers), the fleshly reaction is reciprocation. To respond would only intensify the matter. I have learned it's better not to say anything. It's my own cross to bear. I am faithful God would convict my wife's conscience when her words or actions have been uncalled for.

John mentioned taking out the trash. In my own experience which I'll ask brothers reading this post, what about when your wife asks you to scrub the toilets inside and out? Do you voluntarily submit out of love to your wife? Or is that too much to bear and you respond and infer that's a sister's duty?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Amen brother! Tremendous read, thank you John for sharing that!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

As husbands, we are called to love our wives as Christ loved the Church. Christ does not put us in subjegation, demanding obedience - and if you want to see what a husbands love is supposed to look like, read Song of Songs and see how greatly He values her.

How many have had this experience, brother or sister? The husband cherishing his wife in love does not consider any matter or issue too small to dismiss.
If brothers value their wives as Christ and the Church, how much sensitivity exists towards their wife? To her feelings, her concerns, her issues, her needs, etc.
We as believers have a God who is always available to listen when we open to Him. Yet we as husbands don't always have an ear to hear nor an intuition to recognize the obvious.