Verses on the Theme of God's General Salvation

[YP0534]

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the reality. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.

1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of the reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

[countmeworthy]

OH...That we would have LIFE and have it MORE Abundantly until it overflows!

John 10:10b

This LIFE is not only Eternal but this Abundant LIFE is for right NOW!!

Glory!! GLORY!! Halleluia to the Lamb of God!

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by YP0534

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the reality. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.

1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of the reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

My purpose in posting these verses is to highlight a neglected aspect of the revelation of God's eternal administration, namely, that the nations are seen dwelling upon the New Earth at the end of the Bible's presentation of the picture of eternity in the New Jerusalem.

While many among us were divested of our traditional concepts about "going to heaven" while among the Local Church saints, very little attention was paid there to the other side of the coin: although none of us were "going to heaven" any more, all the same ones were still "going to hell," with a couple of vague exceptions that were rarely if ever considered in any real substantial fashion - the "faithful Jews" and "the sheep" among the nations who gave aid to the Christians and Jews during the Great Tribulation.

The first aspect of any such discussion needs to be, of course, the clear word of the Bible.

So, here we are.

Christ is the Lamb of God who made propitiation on behalf of the entire world, not just us.

Praise Him!

[OBW]

You are stepping into a very interesting area. And it is not clear where you are going with it. I heard all sorts of thoughts expressed on this if I understand you correctly. There is a growing “conversation” that includes people who seem headed this direction.

Who comprise the nations mentioned in Revelation? I’ve heard two differing thoughts. One says the continued lives of the unsaved at the end of the tribulation become nations in the millennium that continue as the nations in the NJ. Others consider that the nations are merely a broad reference to the totality of the redeemed. (The gates are open and the “who” of the citizenship of the NJ is not absolutely clear.) You might be bringing in a third — those for whom other verses seem to say that their end is “perdition.” I can’t tell.

Are the verses that talk about propitiation “for the whole world,” tasting death “for every man,” taking away the sin of “the world” saying that it will be that way, or are they saying that these acts were to make it available to everyone (not just the Jews) and free will now comes to play?

I’m not asking to be dismissive. I know of another who lurks among us who was part of a group (pre-LC) that had a belief that is sometimes called “universalism.” While that is not generally considered part of orthodox Christianity, if this is where this is going, I would rather study it than simply dismiss it because others already have. I have heard this same issue raised in other places and think it is worthy of exploration.

At the same time, I think we need to add references to punishment because if some sort of universalism is being considered, then a different understanding of those verses must also be created. If this can be considered an accurate position, then much must be harmonized — more than just who are the nations.

And last, should this be up in the Apologetics group? We are talking serious contemplation of the scope of verses that many consider to be central in their theology.

[OBW]

And my first question. If Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, then what are the perks of following now if you get to dwell on this re-created earth and enter the NJ for those healing leaves anyway? These are the kind of thoughts that we must be able to deal with.

I think we need KSA, SC, Unto, Matt, Ohio, Nell, Thankful, Hope, Terry, and virtually everyone else to join in. (Sorry if any particular name was not included. I just rattled off a few from memory. It is not a matter of status, but of familiarity and staying up too late watching the Olympics.) We are grappling with the long-established boundaries of orthodoxy. This may make Acts 15 look like a cake-walk.

And the person who simply trots out one verse and says “discussion closed” is a fool. At the minimum, we need to explain the “starter” verses in such a manner that we clearly return to that warm, familiar blanket of orthodoxy. Maybe there are writings on this from others who have answered these questions in the past that we can consider.

Now if I have missed the direction of the original posts, please let me know. I’m not trying to start trouble. I’m being quite serious. If my understanding is right, then this is either something to take very seriously and deal with in a serious manner, or it should not be undertaken.

[finallyprettyokay]

Thanks, YPO. This is something very interesting to me. I have thought about it alot, have some definite feelings. If, like Mike wrote, I understand the direction of this thread ---

And my first question. If Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, then what are the perks of following now if you get to dwell on this re-created earth and enter the NJ for those healing leaves anyway? These are the kind of thoughts that we must be able to deal with.

The perks are that we get to know Jesus now. We have the joy and privilege now. We all agree on this one thing (and maybe only this one thing ) -- Life is Better With Jesus. We love Him because He first loved us, not because of what may or may not happen in eternity.

Is it too soon to toss in a second question? It seems that it is generally thought that a person who believes in what Mike named universalism, and YPO may be calling God's General Salvation, is not, could not, be a Christian. What do you folks all think of that idea? (Or, as our distinguished Southern members would say -- all ya all. I am not sure how that is written, but I do know how it is said )

fpo, having fun with smilies while thinking about a serious question.

[YP0534]

The topic was one I explored a bit in the past and our discussions elsewhere recently here brought it up to me again.

Yes, I am suggesting that there is a third possiblilty, unexplored elsewhere to my knowledge. I think it takes someone already free of traditional heaven to explore traditional hell, if you catch my drift.

To begin with, I will strongly declare that our God is just, even Justice. Whenever in the past I have encountered reasonings of unbelievers and heretics that state or imply that the One who is the focus of our joy and pleasure is unjust, I wish to defend the Righteous One from the slanders of the enemy. How is your God love if He sends good people to hell? I don't want any part of a God who sends people to eternal torment. ETC.

You know the drill.

For me, all the classic answers to such attacks on the traditional notion of eternal hellfire have rung hollow. I believe I'm not the only one, as demonstrated at least partly by the fact that they are also unpersuasive to the allegedly intended audience.

Please know that I will most strongly insist that the greatest portion is ours who know Him now and as we do. We are the heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ and this has been granted to us by His grace alone. Any who would content themselves to decline the free gift in Christ in exchange for what is clearly inferior, truly sees neither.

Anyway.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

One day I noticed that at the Last Judgment, before the Great White Throne, all of those who are resurrected at that time, who of course are not those who have been part of the resurrection of the believers prior to the millenial kingdom, but are the dead unbelievers of all time, are judged. They are judged according to their works, each of them having the deeds of their lives recorded, and then also, the book of life is opened.

The way this is usually taught is that none of these people, unbelievers all, are or could be recorded in the book of life, which the orthodox teachings have always held as the enrollment of those who get to go to heaven. So, the books of works are opened, and they are judged by their works, but of course, their works cannot save them, so this is just a perfunctory waste of time and they are all going into the ashcan anyway. We don't really know why the book of life is mentioned here other than to reassure us that at least we're OK.

Is this justice? Is it the case that all of unregenerate humanity, most of whom never even had a chance to know Him, must at the end of all things all be resurrected to stand trial individually in a kangaroo court only to be immediately condemned to eternal perdition as a matter of a foregone conclusion? Is this the judgment of an infinitely just King or the superficial posturing of a petty dictatorship? Is this what the Bible says?

No.

Rather, in context, the book of life clearly records not only the regenerated believers in Christ, but also the nations who will enter into the New Earth with us. The books of works are opened and a real judgment is made over each and every one by the Just One who sits upon the throne. The nations in the New Earth are then those who are not condemned in that Great Judgment.

How is this possible?

Because, He is the Savior of all men, especially the believers.

To my appreciation, the traditional teachings about "hell" are just Satan's slander against God's justice and a Bible-twisting attempt to deprive all the world of the good news of Jesus Christ.

Out of time for now.

Poke holes where appropriate and provide further insights where they occur to you.

[Paul Cox]

"Phelps makes history"

Yes!
Yes!
Yes!

God Bless America! For a little while anyway.

Roger

[KSA]

It is interesting that such a thread would be opened here. Especially at this time when I am studyng this theological view of universal salvation. I am not sure if I will engage in this discussion here. After all, this is the forum that deals with teachings of Witness Lee. But those who want to familiarize themselves with the theological position of universal salvation can read the book "The Hope Beyond Hell" and the writings of J. Preston Eby, all of which are available online for free.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by KSA

It is interesting that such a thread would be opened here. Especially at this time when I am studyng this theological view of universal salvation. I am not sure if I will engage in this discussion here. After all, this is the forum that deals with teachings of Witness Lee.

Well, my opening this thread here began as a result of all the musings about Lee's Satanography on another thread on this forum, actually.

The thing is, Lee had his teachings about the end times, the famous Chart of the Seventy Weeks and all kinds of books and things regarding the disposition of different kinds of individuals. I have some problems with his teachings where I'm pretty clear that they fall short on the subject. Rather than starting expressly with a lengthy discussion of what Lee taught, which always seems to tick people off anyways, I just cut to the chase of what he neglected.

I could set forth the classic Lee doctrines first, if that is required here.

I did stick it over in the misc category.

And as a footnote, I need to say again, I am absolutely NOT suggesting that the unregenerate have any portion of the saints in the light. I don't believe the scriptures testify to that and that species of doctrine called "universal salvation" I would assert was error. I'm simply saying that those who did not die in Christ are resurrected and judged by God according to their deeds which will determine if they proceed to the New Earth of the Lake of Fire by the measure of His justice.

[Arizona]

YP0534,

This subject has been a hot topic among some believers I know for a number of years now. Formerly known as Universalism (introduced by Origen c.200) and currently called "Ultimate Reconciliation" by many.

Another book on the subject is The Evangelical Universalist by Gregory MacDonald.

After much consideration I think I have arrived at the same conclusions as you. The orthodox interpretation of the Great White Throne judgement has never satisfied me, if for no other reason than it just does not coincide with the nature of God that I see in the New Testament.

As a short attempt to justify the inclusion of this subject in a forum concerning W Lee and the LC I would offer this: The LC has closed the door on further interpretation. They are not the first group in history to do this. The Brethren did it and the Methodists before them also.
I think we all know that W Lee attempted to combine the Inner Life teachings of the late 19th Century (ie Murray, Simpson, et al) with the doctrinal teachings of the Plymouth Brethren, and adding the corporate church life according to his experience with Bro W Nee.

I dont know about you, but I am always getting a sense from the Word that there is just much much more here that I have not seen nor understood correctly. There is no way to continue to search out the riches in the Bible if we adamantly insist that we already have all there is to get.

To return. I do believe that the final judgement is quite literal and is indeed based on the works of men and that our God, Who is perfectly right and just, does definitely have a Book of Life reserved for those who are not regenerated in this age, the result of which does NOT condemn all of mankind to our religious concept of hell.

Grace to you.


Arizona

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Arizona

YP0534,

This subject has been a hot topic among some believers I know for a number of years now. Formerly known as Universalism (introduced by Origen c.200) and currently called "Ultimate Reconciliation" by many.

Another book on the subject is The Evangelical Universalist by Gregory MacDonald.

OK well, I don't know about what they call it historically or currently. And I'm a little concerned with the term "universalism" because I've always understood that to mean, basically, do whatever seems right in your own mind. "Ultimate Reconciliation" doesn't sound quite as itchy but I really don't know what it's referring to and I don't want to agree with something I've never heard of. If you say what I'm saying is someplace else I've never heard of, then, I'll have to look into that, I suppose.

The thing is, Lee was the primary proponent of partial rapture that I was aware of and Lee was the primary proponent of an analysis of John's Revelation where there were nations realistically described in the New Earth. That doesn't mean he was the unique source of such things. Just means I never heard it any place else I ever attended. Most of the religious world I contacted tried to understand the signs in Revelation as being some kind of descriptions of traditional heaven and hell doctrines.

So, if Lee has plausibly brought me further than just heaven and hell but he falls short of what I can see myself, I'd like to discuss what I think I see.

At the same time, I'm terrified that something I might misconstrue could be the cause of someone saying "Hey, I'm a nice guy. I don't need to worry about Jesus now. Everything will be OK in the end." I'm not 100% sure of the underlying point and I wouldn't say it that way no matter what! No one should miss the enjoyment of the riches of the Good Land in favor of a sketchy future of eating healing leaves.

But I really appreciate the comments and earnestly seek more and further. This is something I've puzzled about on my own for about a decade now and it's good to have someone to chat with about it.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by Arizona

YP0534,


After much consideration I think I have arrived at the same conclusions as you. The orthodox interpretation of the Great White Throne judgement has never satisfied me, if for no other reason than it just does not coincide with the nature of God that I see in the New Testament.

Christian universalism does not deny hell and lake of fire. It does not teach that you can do whatever you want, and you'll be saved. Christian universalism teaches that salvation can be gained only by faith in the redemptive work of Jesus. But at the same time it teaches that an opportunity to receive Christ is not limited by this life only. It teaches that the judgment in the lake of fire has a redemptive character, and that as a result of this punishment everyone will receive the Lord - every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by KSA

Christian universalism does not deny hell and lake of fire. It does not teach that you can do whatever you want, and you'll be saved. Christian universalism teaches that salvation can be gained only by faith in the redemptive work of Jesus. But at the same time it teaches that an opportunity to receive Christ is not limited by this life only. It teaches that the judgment in the lake of fire has a redemptive character, and that as a result of this punishment everyone will receive the Lord - every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Wow.

I so completely don't know what this means.

[aron]

Originally Posted by YP0534

At the same time, I'm terrified that something I might misconstrue could be the cause of someone saying "Hey, I'm a nice guy. I don't need to worry about Jesus now. Everything will be OK in the end." ... No one should miss the enjoyment of the riches of the Good Land in favor of a sketchy future of eating healing leaves.

I think the "leaves" is in apposition to "fruit". You don't "eat" leaves. You make a poultice out of them and apply to wounds. It doesn't get into you via digestion (you are what you eat, and all that) as much as "affect" you from the outside.

I don't think you eat these leaves. This is a clear distinction from "fruit".

That is why glorified believers and healed nations are not the same thing. Leaves and fruit are very different items, with different uses and therefore belonging to different categories. Believers and healed nations are different.

The tree bears new fruit every month, 12 of them. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Clearly different things going on here.

[aron]

Originally Posted by KSA

Christian universalism does not deny hell and lake of fire. It does not teach that you can do whatever you want, and you'll be saved. Christian universalism teaches that salvation can be gained only by faith in the redemptive work of Jesus. But at the same time it teaches that an opportunity to receive Christ is not limited by this life only. It teaches that the judgment in the lake of fire has a redemptive character, and that as a result of this punishment everyone will receive the Lord - every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

This, to me, is a mishmash. It confuses believers with unbelievers. The leaves of the tree healing the nations and the believers getting access to the fruit are quite distinct. I for one don't see the two getting crossed. Leaves are leaves and fruit is fruit.

Getting healed by the leaves of the tree is not the same thing as eating the fruit. Anyone who's lived on a farm can make this distinction. It is clear.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by aron

I think the "leaves" is in apposition to "fruit". You don't "eat" leaves. You make a poultice out of them and apply to wounds. It doesn't get into you via digestion (you are what you eat, and all that) as much as "affect" you from the outside.

I don't think you eat these leaves. This is a clear distinction from "fruit".

That is why glorified believers and healed nations are not the same thing. Leaves and fruit are very different items, with different uses and therefore belonging to different categories. Believers and healed nations are different.

The tree bears new fruit every month, 12 of them. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Clearly different things going on here.

well said!

Don't eat the leaves, guys!

[Arizona]

Originally Posted by YP0534

OK well, I don't know about what they call it historically or currently. And I'm a little concerned with the term "universalism" because I've always understood that to mean, basically, do whatever seems right in your own mind. "Ultimate Reconciliation" doesn't sound quite as itchy but I really don't know what it's referring to and I don't want to agree with something I've never heard of. If you say what I'm saying is someplace else I've never heard of, then, I'll have to look into that, I suppose.

The thing is, Lee was the primary proponent of partial rapture that I was aware of and Lee was the primary proponent of an analysis of John's Revelation where there were nations realistically described in the New Earth. That doesn't mean he was the unique source of such things. Just means I never heard it any place else I ever attended. Most of the religious world I contacted tried to understand the signs in Revelation as being some kind of descriptions of traditional heaven and hell doctrines.

So, if Lee has plausibly brought me further than just heaven and hell but he falls short of what I can see myself, I'd like to discuss what I think I see.

At the same time, I'm terrified that something I might misconstrue could be the cause of someone saying "Hey, I'm a nice guy. I don't need to worry about Jesus now. Everything will be OK in the end." I'm not 100% sure of the underlying point and I wouldn't say it that way no matter what! No one should miss the enjoyment of the riches of the Good Land in favor of a sketchy future of eating healing leaves.

But I really appreciate the comments and earnestly seek more and further. This is something I've puzzled about on my own for about a decade now and it's good to have someone to chat with about it.

YP,

Universalism is a big topic, and obviously not where you wanted to go with this discussion. I only mentioned it to show that there are historical roots (tenuous for sure) to this thought.

If I remember correctly W Lee first mentioned this idea of the nations dwelling in the next age as those sheep separated from the goats who are allowed to enter an environment of eternal life without being regenerated people. My point was that it does not seem impossible, or even implausible, to me, that the final judgement of God at the time of new heavens and new earth does not have the same result. This is certainly a different view from orthodox Christian thinkers.

I do think that W Lee must be given some credit for at least opening doors to further considerations. There are many who are no longer are a part of the LC who do give him such credit.

Grace

Arizona

[aron]

To me, there are two themes here: one is for the believers and one for the unbelievers.

To the believers, we have the clear "picture" from the OT. The Israelites all passed through the sea, they all were led in the wilderness by pillar of fire and cloud of smoke, God took care of them daily, yet they nearly all fell in the wilderness, including Moses. Does that mean that the works were insufficient? Eternal perdition for them all? No, Moses is standing with Elijah on the mount of transfiguration talking to Jesus. Even though he fell, eventually he clearly is standing. Ephesians says "By grace you have been saved by faith, not by works, lest any man should boast." Salvation is by faith; it is by grace. Clearly.

But -- Jesus says in Revelation "My reward is according to your works". So salvation/grace, and reward/works seem to be different. All of this doesn't seem to contradict God's righteousness nor mercy in any way. Quite the contrary. The "Get out of jail free" christianity and the "Faith without works is dead" schools seem too simplistic, and Nee & Lee did a better job of reconciling these disparate ideas than others have. However, I agree with Arizona, that when they say, "Okay, the Bible is interpreted. Stop here", we should be wary. I think the subject requires treatment beyond the LSM version.

The second is the unbelievers, those who in this life do not confess Jesus as Lord. The ones getting healed by the tree of life in Revelation, after the Great White Throne, the "nations" are characterized by Lee as those who aided the Jews/believers during the Great Tribulation.

Why only them? Why not anyone who aids the believers? Jesus said, "When you gave the prophet a cup of cold water you will get a reward". Is that only for certain ones? Anyone who gives a cup of water to a prophet gets a reward. Not just those during a 3 1/2 year period.

Jesus said, "When you visited Me in prison...when you came to Me and I was sick..." To me this should apply any time and not just during a 3 1/2 year period. I think Lee was too narrow in his application.

Also, what about Melchisidec, who ministered bread and wine to Abraham? What about Cyrus, who set the Israelites free, and sent them back to Jerusalem, with the cups and utensils and a letter of safe passage? Do they go to the lake of fire for eternity because they aided "God's Chosen People" at the "wrong" point in history? Doesn't make sense to me.

I know that my first theme, the believers, is not under YP's "God's General Salvation" theme, but my sense is that a lot of errors come from not clearly distinguishing between the two. See my previous posts on distinguishing between the "leaves" versus the "fruit" of the tree of life.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Arizona

There are many who are no longer are a part of the LC who do give him such credit.

I don't think there are very many.

I am one, however.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by aron

I know that my first theme, the believers, is not under YP's "God's General Salvation" theme, but my sense is that a lot of errors come from not clearly distinguishing between the two.

absolutely, so!

I just didn't dig into the believer's side of it at all where we have all spent many years feasting.

But you are right!

The failure to make a necessary and proper distinction turns a scriptural principle into doctrinal error in every case!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Arizona

I do think that W Lee must be given some credit for at least opening doors to further considerations. There are many who are no longer are a part of the LC who do give him such credit.

This was my point; I am willing to give credit to Nee/Lee for giving me different thoughts that reconcile seemingly opposed concepts.

Grace=faith=salvation and works=reward was a helpful way of looking at what had seemed to be contradictory things.

I explained this once to a friend of mine, years after I left LC. He was struggling to follow Jesus and had come under the sway of the "works" christians who showed him verses that said believing in Jesus was not enough. He had to do works, naturally thier works, to get saved. I pointed out the distinction between "Grace" and "Salvation" on the one hand, and "Works" and "Reward" on the other. Took me about 5 minutes. I will always remember the look of relief, exultation, and joy on his face as he realized that he was, indeed, saved.

This is not merely theology. This is the rules whereby we order our lives. It is the stories we tell one another to make sense of the world. It is important stuff.