A Refutation of Millennial Exclusion Theology by Middletown Bible Church

[bearbear]

I found a series of articles by Middletown Bible Church which critically examine the teachings of Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, and Robert Wilkin, who advocate a soteriology that divides Christians into "overcomers" and "non-overcomers," which is remarkably similar to Witness Lee's teachings. Hodges and others teach that some believers will be excluded from the millennial kingdom, a concept that contrasts with traditional Free Grace theology, which the church upholds. The articles argue this interpretation misrepresents biblical salvation and I think provides extensive refutations which can be help to those who are trying to deprogram themselves from Witness Lee's heretical views on salvation.

The articles can be found here: https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...e/hodgeshp.htm

Here is an excerpt from https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...ne/inherit.htm

Today in the evangelical world there is a mushrooming movement which professes to champion the “free grace position,” but which others see as dangerously approaching antinomianism. Those who embrace this doctrinal position insist that a true believer can depart from the faith, deny Christ totally, persist in sin (including homosexuality, drunkenness, adultery, etc.), abandon Christianity, and yet still be counted among those who are truly saved. According to this view, such apostates will gain heaven, but will suffer greatly at the judgment seat of Christ and during the kingdom reign of Christ. Indeed they teach that there will be a group of saved people during the kingdom age who will put into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (a hell for believers?).

They divide the body of Christ into two parts: 1) the joint-heirs with Christ (those who suffer with Christ and persevere to the end; 2) those saved people who are not joint-heirs with Christ (those who do not suffer for Christ and who do not continue in the faith, the non-overcomers, the immoral believers, etc.). [For a complete analysis and refutation of this doctrinal position, see the study entitled, The Theology of Zane Hodges and Joseph Dillow and the Grace Evangelical Society and also the study Refutation of the Teachings of Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, etc. by James Ventilato]

[bearbear]

One interesting article that is linked in the resource above is a refutation of kingdom exclusion by a Plymouth Brethren scholar William Kelley which includes a mention of Witness Lee by the poster at the end. This is evidence that millennial exclusion theology was not widely accepted by the Brethren and only embraced by a faction led by Govett, Panton and Lang.

https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...ne/prizewk.pdf

[bearbear]

I am going through the articles by George Zeller now and found this one on apostasy to be thought provoking:

https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...e/departff.pdf

He pushes back on both Free Grace and Lordship Salvation as two extremes using Solomon as an example. This is the first time I've encountered a teacher that is against both views. Most Christians I've encountered usually fall into one of these two camps but perhaps it really is a false dichotomy and the truth lies in the middle.

[bearbear]

George Zeller also shared with me a thought provoking article from Pastor Kelly Sensenig that pushes back on both Free Grace and Lordship Salvation:

"Is the Free Grace position really free?" by Pastor Kelly Sensenig

[bearbear]

I've been enjoying a song that I think captures the nuance in the position described in these posts.

Salvation is a free gift but it also results in transformation.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Yet only the blood of Jesus justifies us and not our works which are like dirty rags.

Titus 3:4-6
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DtiMf1xoLM

Everything changed, it's getting harder to recognize
The person I was before I encountered Christ
I don't walk like I used to
I don't talk like I used to
I've been washed from the inside
I've been washed from the inside out

Hallelujah, hallelujah
I know it was the blood
Could have only been the blood
Hallelujah, hallelujah
I know it was the blood
Could have only been the blood
Ayy

I cannot explain, but nothing's more real than this
In the presence of God, oh, what my hеart experiencеd
When my shame hit the wayside
And my sin met the Most High
I was washed from the inside
I was washed from the inside out

...

It's never been about performance, perfection
Or striving for acceptance
Let me tell you, it's only by the blood
It's never been about deserving or earning
It's a gift that's freely given
Let me tell you, it's only by the blood
Does anybody want to be holy, righteous
Purified and spotless?
Let me tell you, it's only by the blood
Does anybody want to be worthy, forgiven
Justified, really living?
Let me tell you, it's only by the blood

Praise God for His boundless mercy and unfailing love, which He lavishes upon us so abundantly, though we are undeserving.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I found a series of articles by Middletown Bible Church which critically examine the teachings of Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, and Robert Wilkin, who advocate a soteriology that divides Christians into "overcomers" and "non-overcomers,"

In the book of Revelation, Christians are placed into 2 groups for the purpose of the Rapture - Firstfruits and the Harvest.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Most Christians I've encountered usually fall into one of these two camps but perhaps it really is a false dichotomy and the truth lies in the middle.

Try to follow my "brief" reasoning here.

In the section of Hebrews 9.26-28, the sacrifice for sins is addressed for those both under Law and under Grace (iow, OT and NT) Interestingly, the phrase "reserved for men once to die, and then judgment" is referred to. This Judgment determines where we will wait or "sleep." Where we wait is in Hades, under the earth, where Jesus Himself also went. The story of Lazarus and the rich man tells us that Hades has two parts. Following death there is immediately a judgment to determine our temporary resting place. Luke 16.29 informs us that it is not our wealth or poverty that determines where we wait, but whether we "hear Moses and Prophets," which means do we believe God and His Word.

The story of the 2 criminals on the cross with Jesus is informative. Initially both criminals mocked Jesus (Matt 27.44), but later one had a change of heart, (Luke 23.40-43) to whom Jesus famously responded "today you will be with Me in Paradise." It is just that easy to change your resting place. Perhaps these two criminals had a similar conversation across the great divide as Lazarus and the rich man.

All those who stress "grace, by faith, never perish, forgiveness of sins, etc." stress stories like this. And they are right. All these scriptures are a witness at this judgment following our death. But this Paradise under the earth is where we wait; it is not "heaven" or our final destiny. All of past mankind is now in Hades, under the earth, waiting to be resurrected.

The Bible does speak of the pending "Judgment Seat of Christ" for all believers after our resurrection at the last Trumpet. (I Ths 4.16) Here we will be judged for our works, our life, all things "good and worthless." All those who stress the requirements of faithfulness and obedience to the Lord until the end correspond with the book of James which is a witness at this Judgment Seat. Therefore he states "faith without works is dead," because at this time we will be "justified by works." (James 2)

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The story of the 2 criminals on the cross with Jesus is informative. Initially both criminals mocked Jesus (Matt 27.44), but later one had a change of heart, (Luke 23.40-43) to whom Jesus famously responded "today you will be with Me in Paradise." It is just that easy to change your resting place. Perhaps these two criminals had a similar conversation across the great divide as Lazarus and the rich man.

The thief on the cross is indeed an interesting case study of a saved person. The key to his salvation I believe is as you wrote "but later one had a change of heart". This is consistent with the theme that "salvation is a free gift but results in transformation". Like the prodigal who realized his true wretched condition and the error of his ways and that he was not worthy of being his father's son, the thief realized he did not belong in Jesus' kingdom and only ask to be remembered. I believe the thief could have been a prodigal son who was born again. In the last moments before death, he became a good tree bearing good fruit and belonged to the kingdom.

Another interesting case study to bring the free grace view into focus in my opinion would be Matthew 7:21-23. These people claimed Jesus as Lord but Jesus branded them as "workers of lawlessness" and that "he never knew them". In the context leading up to these verses Jesus explained that you can identify a tree by it's fruit and that the bad trees are burned in the fire in Matthew 7:19. The workers of lawlessness hence are bad trees and bad fruit bearers whose end is to be burned just like the tares who blended in with the wheat in Matthew 13:40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age". The false disciples claimed to know Jesus but their hearts were not transformed. They had works but their hearts did not experience transformation and hence they were not recipients of the free gift of salvation.

The Apostles also affirmed Jesus' teachings and wrote extensively concerning these false brethren.

Titus 1:16
"They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."

2 Timothy 3:5
"Having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

1 John 2:4
"He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 3:8
"Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."

Jude 1:4
"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Revelation 2:2
"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars."

The workers of lawlessness who Jesus denied with the words "depart from me" stand in stark contrast to the thief on the cross. While the workers of lawlessness outwardly professed faith, their actions "works of lawlessness" revealed their inward denial of it. In contrast, the thief, much like the prodigal son, did not initially claim faith, yet his transformed heart demonstrated that he truly belonged in the kingdom which Jesus says is neither here or there but lives within us.

Luke 17:21
The kingdom of God never comes by watching for it. Men cannot say, 'Look, here it is', or 'there it is', for the kingdom of God is inside you.

This inward transformation was affirmed by Jesus’ response to the thief’s humble request, "Remember me when You come into Your kingdom." Jesus answered him with the promise: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise," confirming his place in the kingdom.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Another interesting case study to bring the free grace view into focus in my opinion would be Matthew 7:21-23. These people claimed Jesus as Lord but Jesus branded them as "workers of lawlessness" and that "he never knew them". In the context leading up to these verses Jesus explained that you can identify a tree by it's fruit and that the bad trees are burned in the fire in Matthew 7:19.

The workers of lawlessness hence are bad trees and bad fruit bearers whose end is to be burned just like the tares who blended in with the wheat in Matthew 13:40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age". The false disciples claimed to know Jesus but their hearts were not transformed. They had works but their hearts did not experience transformation and hence they were not recipients of the free gift of salvation.

As I tried to explain, salvation scripture needs context. Some verses point to our living today, some point to judgment following death which determines where we will "sleep," and some point to the judgment seat of Christ following our resurrection from the dead. If we don't discern which, then we will never properly understand scripture.

These verses in Matthew 7 refer to the judgment seat of Christ because they are related to the believers works following salvation. If these ones were not initially saved by grace thru faith, then they would never be judged for their works at the Bema Seat, but would be judged for their sins at the Great White Throne. The words "never knew" must be understood as "never approved" since Jesus knows every one of us, all mankind indeed, and all we think and do, regardless of whether we believed or not.

The fate of these evil workers are a warning to all God's children. Christians can be "bad trees" and even "bad branches" (John 15) which will suffer loss by fire. (I Cor 3.13-15) Just because the Lord will use the judgment of fire to prove our works does not mean we will be sent to the Lake of Fire. In fact, many will escape the fires at the Bema Seat because their faith and works have been already purified by fiery trials on earth. (I Pt 4) This is God's way to mature all His children, including even His Only Begotten Son.

It is not correct, however, to connect the fires of Matt 7.19 and John 15.6 with the fire of Matt 13.40-42. The "Tares" are not genuine believers with evil or worthless works, rather they are are "sons of the evil one." (Mt 13.38) The Tares do not have the spirit of God within them, though externally in their behavior they may bear some resemblances to genuine children of God. These tares are not identified by their "works," but by their inward parts. The Tares have not received the gift of eternal life thru the cleansing of sins by His shed blood. These tares are not golden wheat upon harvesting, but a black and intoxicating darnel which becomes readily apparent at harvesting.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The workers of lawlessness who Jesus denied with the words "depart from me" stand in stark contrast to the thief on the cross. While the workers of lawlessness outwardly professed faith, their actions "works of lawlessness" revealed their inward denial of it. In contrast, the thief, much like the prodigal son, did not initially claim faith, yet his transformed heart demonstrated that he truly belonged in the kingdom which Jesus says is neither here or there but lives within us.

We should not assume that the "Thief" on the cross was instantly transformed and matured thru his last minute faith in the Savior. Yes, his eternal destiny was changed by grace thru faith in the promised Messiah, the Lamb of God, but he too must resurrect to the judgment seat of Christ. (2 Cor 5.10) When Jesus said "today you will be with Me in Paradise," this should not be interpreted as the Thief "going to heaven," but rather the Lord visiting Paradise, the pleasant part of Hades, under the earth for "3 days and 3 nights," the sign of Jonah. (Matt 12.39-40)

We should interpret these "evil workers" in Matthew 7 according to I Cor 3 and James 3.1. Those who minister and teach may receive greater reward for their service, but they also may receive "greater judgment" for their evil works. As we see occasionally in the news, it is sometimes the most gifted members of the body of Christ who bring the most shame to His glorious name. This is a warning to us all.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The words "never knew" must be understood as "never approved" since Jesus knows every one of us, all mankind indeed, and all we think and do, regardless of whether we believed or not.

There is no reason to interpret it this way based on the text. The Greek word "ginōskō" (γινώσκω), used in Matthew 7:23 where Jesus says, "I never knew you," does not refer to an omniscient knowledge but rather a relational, intimate knowledge. Examples of the usage of this word are below though there are many more.

In Matthew 1:25, in describing Joseph and Mary, it says, "but he did not know (ginōskō) her until she gave birth to a son."
In this context, "know" refers to intimate marital relations showing the depth of knowing this word implies.

In John 10:14-15 Jesus says, "I am the good shepherd; I know (ginōskō) my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows (ginōskō) me and I know (ginōskō) the Father."

Here, "know" clearly refers to an intimate relationship between Jesus and His followers, and between Jesus and the Father. That Jesus did not "know" the workers of lawlessness also directly implies that they were not his sheep.

Paul echoes this concept of only God knowing his sheep in 2 Timothy 2:19:

"Nevertheless, the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: 'The Lord knows (ginōskei, γινώσκει) those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.'"

The fate of these evil workers are a warning to all God's children. Christians can be "bad trees" and even "bad branches" (John 15) which will suffer loss by fire. (I Cor 3.13-15) Just because the Lord will use the judgment of fire to prove our works does not mean we will be sent to the Lake of Fire. In fact, many will escape the fires at the Bema Seat because their faith and works have been already purified by fiery trials on earth. (I Pt 4) This is God's way to mature all His children, including even His Only Begotten Son.

It is not correct, however, to connect the fires of Matt 7.19 and John 15.6 with the fire of Matt 13.40-42.

In 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, the focus is indeed on works being tested by fire, not the individuals themselves. The context leading up to this passage discusses the ministries of Paul and Apollos and the quality of their work as builders on the foundation of Christ. This passage teaches that good works can vary in quality, and only those done with the right motives and for God's glory will endure. For example, Jesus criticized those who made a show of their good deeds, like blowing trumpets before giving to the needy (Matthew 6:2), indicating that such works will not be rewarded.

In contrast, John 15 uses the metaphor of branches and emphasizes our need to "abide" in Christ to bear fruit. Jesus explicitly states, "You are the branches" (John 15:5), identifying his audience as the branches. Later, in John 15:6, He warns that branches (the audience) who do not remain in Him and do not bear fruit will be "thrown away, wither, and burned." Here, it is not the works being burned as in 1 Corinthians 3, but the branches themselves- those who fail to remain in Christ.

This parallels the passage in Matthew 7, where Jesus speaks about bad trees producing bad fruit and their ultimate fate of being burned in the fire (Matthew 7:19). Similarly, in John 15, it is not the fruit (the works) that is burned, but the branches themselves. Shortly after, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus addresses the workers of lawlessness, who are the bad trees producing bad fruit. Their end is likewise to be cast into the fire as foreshadowed earlier in verse 19.

The fire which tests the quality of good works in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 is hence a different fire from the one in Matthew 7:19 and John 15 where people are actually being thrown into the fire (not works) which refers to the final judgment. God have mercy on us all.

Revelation 20:15
"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire"

[bearbear]

Since this post centers on George Zeller's refutation of free grace and we are discussing Matthew 7:21-23. I think his paper titled "Is It Wrong to Question A Person’s Profession of Faith?" to be relevant.

https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...io/profess.pdf

A profession of faith is an act of openly declaring or publicly claiming a belief or faith. A Christian profession is when someone claims to have trusted Jesus Christ. Such a person says that he is a Christian and that he has believed in Christ at some point in time. It is a clear Scriptural principle that not everyone who professes Christ actually possesses Christ. The person who “has the Son” (1 John 5:12) is the person who truly possesses Christ and has eternal life. Just saying that you have believed on Christ does not make it a reality. Receiving Christ by faith (John 1:12) is a spiritual transaction that must take place in the heart.

Once this transaction is made in the heart, and the person has genuinely received Christ as Saviour, he has eternal life and he will never perish (John 10:27-30). Nothing said in this paper is meant to question the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, that a true believer is safe and secure in Christ forever. The issue being dealt with here is that not everyone who claims to be a believer in Christ is a genuine believer.

[Ohio]

bearbear, it continually amazes me how those who reject "Millennial Exclusion," (or exclusion from the Wedding Feast of the Lamb,) which is the Lord's temporary discipline of unfaithful believers at the Bema Seat, will so quickly assign them to eternal damnation for their failures here on earth.

"Millennial Exclusion," clearly violates the character of a loving God who sent His Son to earth to redeem us that no one would perish, and One who is also a loving Father who disciplines all His children. (Heb 12.6)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In contrast, John 15 uses the metaphor of branches and emphasizes our need to "abide" in Christ to bear fruit. Jesus explicitly states, "You are the branches" (John 15:5), identifying his audience as the branches. Later, in John 15:6, He warns that branches (the audience) who do not remain in Him and do not bear fruit will be "thrown away, wither, and burned." Here, it is not the works being burned as in 1 Corinthians 3, but the branches themselves- those who fail to remain in Christ.

Are you saying that John Chapter 15 was spoken to the general public?

No, these words were spoken to the disciples, who were already clean (v.3) and chosen by the Lord (v.16). This sobering word in v.6 can and does refer to the believers, not the unbelievers. How can an unbeliever be called a slave of Jesus (v.15) or be expected to abide in the Vine? (v.5)

To be cast into the fire and be burned (v.6) corresponds with passing thru fire. (I Cor 3.15) Once again, we should not equate all of God's "testing fires" with the final "Lake of Fire." If all your works are burned up it would appear as if you yourself are burned, but this is the fire of the Lord's discipline for how we live as Christians, and not the Lake of Fire for the judgment of sins.

Remember the old adage: "Text without Context is a Pretext for a Proof text."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you saying that John Chapter 15 was spoken to the general public?

No, these words were spoken to the disciples, who were already clean (v.3) and chosen by the Lord (v.16). This sobering word in v.6 can and does refer to the believers, not the unbelievers. How can an unbeliever be called a slave of Jesus (v.15) or be expected to abide in the Vine? (v.5)

It was spoken to whoever was present to hear Jesus which perhaps even includes Judas who Jesus said was not clean.

John 13:10-11
.. And you are clean, but not every one of you.' For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, 'Not all of you are clean.'"

Someone who truly believes and belongs to the family of God will remain in the faith as Apostle John wrote:

1 John 2:19
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

Not everyone who followed and listened to Jesus were saved. Many of his earlier disciples left him and some may have even been the ones cheering for his death on the cross. The ones who left are the stony and thorny soil in the warning parable of the sower.

John 6:64
"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

John 6:66
"After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."

John 8:31-32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To be cast into the fire and be burned (v.6) corresponds with passing thru fire. (I Cor 3.15) Once again, we should not equate all of God's "testing fires" with the final "Lake of Fire." If all your works are burned up it would appear as if you yourself are burned, but this is the fire of the Lord's discipline for how we live as Christians, and not the Lake of Fire for the judgment of sins.

The ones passing through fires of 1 Cor 3:15 are able to escape the flames but there is no indication that the branches of John 15 or the trees of Matthew 7 escape the flames.

John the Baptist also talks about the same fate for bad trees that Jesus described and Jesus disciples would have associated his imagery from Matthew 7 with this. To claim that these are different events would make God the author of confusion.

Matthew 3:10
"Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

This was spoken to the Pharisees who John called a "brood of vipers". Clearly these are unsaved people and not saved believers who are bad trees.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

those who reject “Millennial Exclusion," clearly violates the character of a loving God who sent His Son to earth to redeem us that no one would perish, and One who is also a loving Father who disciplines all His children. (Heb 12.6)

To the contrary, millennial exclusion actually turns God into a monster who disciplines his children by locking them in a dark closet where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth", the same judgment of wrath which is put on unbelievers.

This view assigns these judgments as happening on saved but unfaithful believers:

Matthew 25:30

"And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 8:12

"The sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Yet weeping and gnashing of teeth also happens to be the same fate of the tares who are thrown into the fiery furnace.

Matthew 13:41-42

"The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The character of God is revealed in the story of the prodigal son. In the same way that Jesus reassured the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise", the father, does not withhold anything from his repentant son. He orders the fattened calf to be prepared, clothes him in fine robes and hosts a joyful feast in his honor. There is no suggestion in the story that the father plans to subject his son to a 1,000-year period of "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Instead, the father’s response is immediate and lavish forgiveness, throwing what is essentially a wedding banquet to celebrate the son’s restoration and reconciliation.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth is reserved for the children of disobedience who are not the children of God.

Ephesians 2:2-3
"...in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

[Raptor]

Bearbear....all this time and you still don´t understand basic concepts, even just the use of language and context.

Examples:
1) "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is NOT a place. It´s just a description of an emotional state of deep regret and sorrow. It can be applied to many different situations. You cannot make the lake of fire synonymous to W&GoT. A teenager can disobey his dad, take the car out on Saturday, get a ticket for DWI and be grounded for 3 months. He goes to his room and weeps and gnashes his teeth. Did he go to hell? NO.

2) The prodigal son REPENTED. The main concept behind being disqualified from ruling and reigning with Christ in the Millenial is that of sinful believers who DO NOT REPENT. That´s one of the main points concerning the Lord´s calling in Rev. 2 and 3, ...a calling for sinful believers to repent.

Why is it that you still cannot understand basic, elementary concepts?

[Raptor]

Mike Bickle:

• genuine believer, a regenerated son of God, ex-pastor and leader
• sexually abused women, even a minor
• has not repented

Apostle Paul:

• genuine believer, a regenerated son of God, apostle and leader
• sacrificed his life and everything to follow Jesus faithfully at all cost, to the end

Judgement Seat of Christ
According to the Bible, Bickle will be disciplined and Paul rewarded in the Kingdom Age.

According to Bearbear, Bickle will be rewarded, and rule and reign in the Kingdom....the same as Paul.


NONSENSE!!!!

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

2) The prodigal son REPENTED. The main concept behind being disqualified from ruling and reigning with Christ in the Millenial is that of sinful believers who DO NOT REPENT. That´s one of the main points concerning the Lord´s calling in Rev. 2 and 3, ...a calling for sinful believers to repent.

I assumed the millennial exclusion position would classify the prodigal son the same as the unprofitable 1 talent servant who was thrown into outer darkness since neither had produced any works but are considered saved within millennial exclusion. I'm sorry if I misrepresented it.

Originally Posted by Raptor

Mike Bickle:
According to Bearbear, Bickle will be rewarded, and rule and reign in the Kingdom....the same as Paul.

Raptor this also reveals that you do not understand my position even after our history of long debate over this subject. I would never come to this conclusion and neither would George Zeller of Middletown Bible Church. Mike Bickle if he doesn't repent before dying, would be evidence that he is a false believer, a bad tree (Matt 7:19) and a tare (Matt 13:24-30). However since he's still alive and may repent and only God would know whether Mike Bickle is saved per 2 Tim 2:19 -- let's refer to this person as a hypothetical "Jim" instead. This hypothetical Jim would be cast into outer darkness after dying awaiting final judgment and eventually be cast into the lake of fire. Remember, we don't think everyone who professes the faith is saved. In the words of Howard Pittman who you're also familiar with, to be saved you have to be a heart possessor and not a mouth professor (which is also the central theme behind his book "Placebo').

Jim would actually fit very well with the workers of lawlessness in Matt 7:21-23. All the works and ministry he did would be in vain because he was a false believer who lawlessly sexually abused women and did not repent of it. He would be disowned by Jesus via the words "I never knew you, depart from me". Unlike millennial exclusion, we do not believe the workers of lawlessness like Jim are saved.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

So this hypothetical Jim would burn in hell forever and not be even close to approaching the Apostle Paul who himself was afraid of being damned (1 Corinthians 9:27, Phil 3:11-12) and perhaps falling into the same snare.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (ESV)
"But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified [adokimos, also used to refer to the damned in Hebrews 6:8]."

Also I think the prodigal son may receive little to no rewards. While the father did throw him a party and welcomed him back to his home, the son sold his inheritance after all and that cannot be changed.

If you have time I would recommend you read this position paper on free grace to understand the traditional dispensational view on grace which many of the Brethren also held prior to Govett:

https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...e/freegrKS.pdf

Here's a snippet:

The Bible reveals that it is repentance which prepares an unsaved person to receive God’s saving grace (Acts 11:18; Rom. 2:4) and transformation of living is the result of God’s sanctifying work of grace occurring in the believer’s life (Rom. 6:1-15; Titus 2:11-12), none of which involves legalism. When grace is at work legalism cannot be at work (Rom. 11:6). The free grace that saves also produces freedom from the bondage of sin. It does not keep a person in the pigpen of his old way of life, permanently bound to sin, unbelief, and committed to apostasy (2 Pet. 2:22).

Here is where some of the Free Grace Theology goes off the rails. If a person can deny the truth of the Gospel, live as an apostate, live like the devil and be labeled a child of the devil (1 John 3:10), and still be saved, as some Free Grace Theology assumes, then this is actually a distortion of free grace. This is because grace is not only freely received (without works) for salvation (Eph. 2:8-9) but the work of sanctifying grace occurring in a person’s life also frees or liberates an individual from his former living and belief systems which run contrary to Biblical truth. Free grace not only saves but sanctifies (Rom. 6:14-15) in its outworking within the believer’s life. Its freedom is experienced in both salvation and sanctification.

Free gracers shoot themselves in the foot many times by pushing “free grace” to the outer limits and creating a radical disconnect from the teaching of Biblical repentance in relation to salvation and sanctification. This is because they do not see repentance as necessary for salvation and transformation as necessary in confirming a person’s salvation. But the message of the Gospel and grace reminds us that we can be free from sin’s penalty and power through Christ alone (Rom. 3:24; Gal. 1:4; Titus 2:11-12; Heb. 2:15). However, if a person does not repent and rejects this message of grace and freedom by choosing darkness over light (John 3:19), rejecting the claims of Jesus Christ (John 5:40), not recognizing he is a sinner and needs a Savior (Rom. 3:10-12, 23), that salvation is by faith without works (Rom. 3:20), and if he wants to live in open rebellion against God, deny the faith like an apostate (2 Peter 2), then he cannot experience grace and freedom. He has mocked the precious pearl of grace (Matt. 7:6) and missed the freedom that grace is designed to bring in the life of a true Gospel believer.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

1) "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is NOT a place. It´s just a description of an emotional state of deep regret and sorrow. It can be applied to many different situations. You cannot make the lake of fire synonymous to W&GoT. A teenager can disobey his dad, take the car out on Saturday, get a ticket for DWI and be grounded for 3 months. He goes to his room and weeps and gnashes his teeth. Did he go to hell? NO.

But would a loving Dad ever cut his son into two pieces to discipline him like the master did to the wicked servant in Matthew 24:51? "And will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And also his portion is with the hypocrites (the Pharisees who were white washed tombs) who are destined for the lake of fire.

Do you have any scriptural evidence to support your claim that "weeping and gnashing" of teeth can be a result of a temporary period of discipline?

Here are some verse references and corresponding notes to show why "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a result of eternal wrath where there is no hope and not a temporary period of punishment where hope is still present.

Matthew 8:12
"But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The "sons of the kingdom" refers to individuals who presumptively belonged to God's people (e.g., unbelieving Israelites) but rejected Christ. The context contrasts faith in Christ with unbelief, particularly the centurion's faith in Matthew 8:10. True entrance into God’s kingdom comes through faith in Christ, not mere association or lineage (John 8:24, "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.")

Matthew 13:42
"And will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I think we both agree on this. This verse is part of the parable of the wheat and tares, where tares (false believers or the unsaved) are separated from the wheat (true believers) at the end of the age. The "furnace of fire" explicitly refers to eternal judgment, not temporary discipline.

Matthew 13:50
"And cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Same as above but for bad fish instead of tares.

Matthew 22:12-13
He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless. "Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

The man without a wedding garment represents someone who did not prepare by having saving faith which includes repenting (Mark 1:15, Luke 13:3). The wedding garment symbolizes righteousness given through faith (Revelation 19:8, Isaiah 61:10). It is also synonymous with the robes that the father gave the prodigal son who repented (Luke 15:22).

Matthew 24:51
"And will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This verse speaks of an unfaithful servant who is identified with "hypocrites," a term often used for those who are not truly saved such as the Pharisees (Matt 23:27-28). The severe punishment of being "cut in two" and the portion with hypocrites implies wrath. Temporary discipline would not involve the severity of this imagery.

Matthew 25:30
"And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The unprofitable servant thought his master was harsh and cruel (Matthew 25:24), which demonstrates that he truly did not know the master. Eternal life is defined as knowing Jesus Christ (John 17:3), so by not knowing Him, the servant did not possess eternal life. Jesus describes Himself as gentle and humble in heart, declaring that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and that only in Him can we find true rest for our souls (Matthew 11:28-30). This contrast shows that the servant’s view of the master was fundamentally incompatible with the nature of Jesus.

Luke 13:27-28
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out."

This passage is part of Jesus' response to a question about salvation in Luke 13:23, where someone asked, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” This makes it clear that the context of Jesus’ teaching is directly related to the issue of salvation, not the loss of rewards.