Share my opinion as a server in Local Church

[BreadFish]

Dear brothers and sisters,
After read many posts in this forum, I understand the feelings of brothers and sisters.

First let me introduces a little about myself, I was touched and saved by the Lord directly when I got a bible (not recovery version). Thus I have no LC background. When I came to the Local church I have similiar feelings with most of you.

After 10 years of LC Life and I start to know what's the problem and How to solve it.

As a brother who has had similar experiences and is still serving, I would like to share my own opinions:

1. The vision of God's economy (greek: oikonomia) seen by Witness Lee is according to the Bible. There are no problems of most of the teachings of Brother Lee.

2. The real problem is the spirit capacity of Local Church leaders. The Words are pure, but leaders are not pure as the Words. When I relocate to different cities, I found different leaders lead different spiritual atmosphere, though we read the same teaching.

3. The solution of the difficulty of most Local Churches is that we need more leaders who really express the Lord in Love and Light.

4. As a server I need to love the Lord more and express the Lord in Love and Light.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Dear brothers and sisters,
After read many posts in this forum, I understand the feelings of brothers and sisters.

First let me introduces a little about myself, I was touched and saved by the Lord directly when I got a bible (not recovery version). Thus I have no LC background. When I came to the Local church I have similiar feelings with most of you.

After 10 years of LC Life and I start to know what's the problem and How to solve it.

As a brother who has had similar experiences and is still serving, I would like to share my own opinions:

1. The vision of God's economy (greek: oikonomia) seen by Witness Lee is according to the Bible. There are no problems of most of the teachings of Brother Lee.

2. The real problem is the spirit capacity of Local Church leaders. The Words are pure, but leaders are not pure as the Words. When I relocate to different cities, I found different leaders lead different spiritual atmosphere, though we read the same teaching.

3. The solution of the difficulty of most Local Churches is that we need more leaders who really express the Lord in Love and Light.

4. As a server I need to love the Lord more and express the Lord in Love and Light.

BreadFish, welcome to the forum (although I see you've posted a few times before; I can't recall if I already said welcome)!

Thanks for being willing to discuss; I hope you stick around to converse.

I appreciate that you are willing to acknowledge there are problems and shortcomings in the local church. Rather than beat around the bush, I'll just say up front that I disagree with your points 1 and 2. A large amount of Witness Lee's teachings have been proven false and problematic on this forum as well as in the writings, FB posts, websites, and videos of numerous others.

For example, Witness Lee himself lead the saints to believe he is "the minister of the age". Except, there is no such thing as "the minister of the age" in the Bible, plain and simple. And no, it's not a "principle" that you need "light" in order to see. It's flat out not there. God did not reveal a "vision" to Witness Lee that we in turn must follow, as if Witness Lee is the mediator between us and God. Our relationship to Witness Lee and his ministry has nothing to do with our relationship with God, and yet, in the local church, this is the very strong impression that is given - if you are not in the ministry, if you do not follow Lee's vision, then you are off or not in the center of what God is doing on the earth today. This is patently ridiculous. And for someone to get something this significant this wrong justifiably throws all his other teachings into serious doubt.

Regarding God's economy, where specifically does it say in the Bible that "God is dispensing Himself into us"?

The context of the verse about being "partakers of the divine nature" does not imply dispensing and it does not imply that "nature" means some kind of spiritually poured form of God gets into us. It implies upright character and behavior.

oikonomia does not mean "dispensing". "dispensation" and "dispensing" are unrelated things, and "dispensation" as a translation is not a good one for the context.

All I've seen Witness Lee say are things like "a survey of the entire Bible will reveal that God is dispensing Himself into us", and yet.....the Bible doesn't actually say this either. If Lee's vision of God's economy is correct, there should be much more direct support for it from the pages of scripture, given that it is supposed to be some kind of "controlling vision".

I agree the leaders need to express the Lord in love and light more, and I would also add that they need to express Him more in truth too.

Please stick around to discuss. I hate to see people believe lies just because they are shrouded with truthful sounding words.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

…according to the Bible.

I would love to understand what this means to you.

[UntoHim]

My friend BreadFish (just LOVE your name by the way!)
Since we have not heard from you in quite a while I took the time to go back and see what you posted when you first came to our little forum.
I think that you correctly identified many of the main "problems" in the Local Church of Witness Lee in these opening posts. I am curious to hear from you if you now have a significantly different view and understanding of the current disposition of the Local Church Movement. I do understand and appreciate the fact that if you are still located in mainland China your experiences, thoughts and purviews are limited, as would be the case with any person in your position. (I have bolded the most troubling parts of your posts)

Originally Posted by BreadFish

In every meeting we read the HWMR outlines and repeat the words. We do not read Bible in the meeting but the outlines. My group haven't study even one book of Bible verse by verse in 5 years. The believers here are increasing slowly, many new believers do not want to attend the meeting. We were not taught a whole book of Bible verse by verse, but according to the crystallization study of LSM.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Although Brother Lee is a great Bible teacher, his words cannot be described as absolutely correct. Now the believers in LC are taught to say Amen to every word of Brother Lee, this will result in personality cult and cause many problems. In the 1990s, there was one cult “The Shouters” in China called Witness Lee as Lord. The founder of the famous cult Eastern Lightning was also attending LC meetings. Thus in my opinion, there are some dangerous teachings in LCs controlled by Witness Lee. The tone of Witness Lee's book is different from Brother Nee's book. It has some proud taste. I usually read pride and judgement from his book.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Actually some few seeking believers realizes the problems but they have no way to handle it. The leaders are controlled by Lee's teaching. Most believers in LRC do not know about whether Lee is right or not since they have a low education background. They do not research Bible. They just have to follow the leading ones and become 'Amen robots'.

[Bible-believer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreadFish View Post
Actually some few seeking believers realizes the problems but they have no way to handle it. The leaders are controlled by Lee's teaching. Most believers in LRC do not know about whether Lee is right or not since they have a low education background. They do not research Bible. They just have to follow the leading ones and become 'Amen robots'.

So true!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BreadFish View Post
Actually some few seeking believers realizes the problems but they have no way to handle it. The leaders are controlled by Lee's teaching. Most believers in LRC do not know about whether Lee is right or not since they have a low education background. They do not research Bible. They just have to follow the leading ones and become 'Amen robots'.

So true!

Yes, so true.
Those members/visitors in LC meetings need to realize there is no way that handle problems and/or concerns. To try to do so you would only get blindsided. One becomes a problem by seeking to address a problem. Better to just leave and find a non-sectarian church to meet with.
Lee's teaching/ministry is a hierarchy that goes from the top down. Even though LSM/LC co-workers will acknowledge Witness Lee made mistakes, they will never admit nor concede Witness Lee was wrong. It's part of the deputy authority teaching taught to present elders all the way down to the newest members. Children who are raised in the local churches are indoctrinated with the deputy authority teaching. In a nutshell, even if a deacon/elder/co-worker is wrong they're still right. It is not a matter of how educated a sister or brother is. The issue is deputy authority. A sister or brother can plainly see where the Bible proves Lee's ministry was in error. A Local Church leader would only see you are using the Bible to attack Lee's ministry. Breadfish's point is taken though. Many in the Local Churches accept Witness Lee's ministry (via LSM publications) as being Biblically correct 100% of the time. I would guess most in the Local Churches do not fact-check Witness Lee's ministry against the Bible.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Yes, so true.
Those members/visitors in LC meetings need to realize there is no way that handle problems and/or concerns. To try to do so you would only get blindsided. One becomes a problem by seeking to address a problem. Better to just leave and find a non-sectarian church to meet with.

Lee's teaching/ministry is a hierarchy that goes from the top down. Even though LSM/LC co-workers will acknowledge Witness Lee made mistakes, they will never admit nor concede Witness Lee was wrong. It's part of the deputy authority teaching taught to present elders all the way down to the newest members.

Children who are raised in the local churches are indoctrinated with the deputy authority teaching. In a nutshell, even if a deacon/elder/co-worker is wrong they're still right. It is not a matter of how educated a sister or brother is. The issue is deputy authority. A sister or brother can plainly see where the Bible proves Lee's ministry was in error. A Local Church leader would only see you are using the Bible to attack Lee's ministry.

Breadfish's point is taken though. Many in the Local Churches accept Witness Lee's ministry (via LSM publications) as being Biblically correct 100% of the time. I would guess most in the Local Churches do not fact-check Witness Lee's ministry against the Bible.

In our region, TC knew that John Ingalls was an honorable and godly man, while the sons of Lee were despicable and obnoxious. He knew the facts first hand, having grown up in Taipei and knew them all personally. In John Ingalls' book STTIL, John relates how the two discussed serious problems in Anaheim at the LSM offices. Initially TC was sympathetic and supportive of John. Then after he visited WL himself, TC suddenly flip-flopped. TC was forced to "choose sides." And we know who side he chose.

Yet, on several occasions, in regional gatherings in Cleveland, TC would tell us that it was always wrong when leaders forced the saints to "choose sides." It was like contentious parents forcing their children to choose sides. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, TC threw JI under the bus and then kept quiet concerning the actual facts of the conflicts in Anaheim. TC then began saying that, "WL is my spiritual father, and his mistakes are none of my business."

Actually, no, that was not an acceptable answer. If your father is sinning and abusing your mother, grown children should step in to protect her, and expose the abuse. The specifics of the situation determine the necessary course of action, but TC's comment to JI that, "you owe WL even your life," was way beyond the pale. That was to take what we owe only our Lord Jesus, and give it to an errant servant. Because of this, none of the Midwest saints ever learned about the real corruption at LSM.

When Paul wrote to Timothy about sinning elders/ministers, he provided both wise and necessary instruction on how to handle sinning situations and at the same time benefit the entire body of Christ. (see I Timothy 5.19-21) What we later learned, however, was how these matters in Anaheim were actually handled with "both prejudice and partiality," exactly the opposite of Paul's instructions. They used the unbiblical practice of "covering the brothers," instead of rightfully reproving those who sin.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When Paul wrote to Timothy about sinning elders/ministers, he provided both wise and necessary instruction on how to handle sinning situations and at the same time benefit the entire body of Christ. (see I Timothy 5.19-21) What we later learned, however, was how these matters in Anaheim were actually handled with "both prejudice and partiality," exactly the opposite of Paul's instructions. They used the unbiblical practice of "covering the brothers," instead of rightfully reproving those who sin.

This is not opinion, but fact. Supported by the letter of apology to Phillip Lee from Ed Marks and company as elders of the Church in Anaheim.
There was prejudice and there was partiality.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In our region, TC knew that John Ingalls was an honorable and godly man, while the sons of Lee were despicable and obnoxious. He knew the facts first hand, having grown up in Taipei and knew them all personally. In John Ingalls' book STTIL, John relates how the two discussed serious problems in Anaheim at the LSM offices. Initially TC was sympathetic and supportive of John. Then after he visited WL himself, TC suddenly flip-flopped. TC was forced to "choose sides." And we know who side he chose.

Yet, on several occasions, in regional gatherings in Cleveland, TC would tell us that it was always wrong when leaders forced the saints to "choose sides." It was like contentious parents forcing their children to choose sides. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, TC threw JI under the bus and then kept quiet concerning the actual facts of the conflicts in Anaheim. TC then began saying that, "WL is my spiritual father, and his mistakes are none of my business."

Actually, no, that was not an acceptable answer. If your father is sinning and abusing your mother, grown children should step in to protect her, and expose the abuse. The specifics of the situation determine the necessary course of action, but TC's comment to JI that, "you owe WL even your life," was way beyond the pale. That was to take what we owe only our Lord Jesus, and give it to an errant servant. Because of this, none of the Midwest saints ever learned about the real corruption at LSM.

Take any current/past leader in the Recovery Movement. I'm sure there are some who would echo what Titus Chu said regarding Witness Lee. I cannot say that regarding any brother. Liking them or respecting them is irrelevant.
I would say, who died for your sins?

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I would say, who died for your sins?

Big and essential! So shall every Christian remember why we have the Lord's table!

[aron]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

After 10 years of LC Life and I start to know what's the problem and How to solve it.

As a brother who has had similar experiences and is still serving, I would like to share my own opinions:

1. The vision of God's economy (greek: oikonomia) seen by Witness Lee is according to the Bible. There are no problems of most of the teachings of Brother Lee.

2. The real problem is the spirit capacity of Local Church leaders...

I would ask all readers, be willing to really question point #1. If you just accept it without proving it, then you base your life on what someone has told you is true, not on what you have proven to be true. In my case, once I began to 'test all thing' in the teaching, it fell apart quickly. It was not truth, but speculation, not founded on scripture.

Instead, what emerged for me was different, based more solidly on scripture, and made sense of the Bible, and the New Testament made more sense. In Galations 2, the Jerusalem Brothers sent Paul out, laying hands, saying "remember the poor", which Paul said he was eager to do. Why was Paul eager to remember the poor? Because it was God's economy.

Man's economy is to store up for oneself treasure on earth. God's economy is to store up treasure in heaven. This is Jesus' teaching, and the Twelve and Paul all agreed. Peter was Apostle to the Circumcision, Paul to the Uncircumcision per Galatians 2, but they both had the same ministry: remember the poor.

Why do you think Paul came back to Jerusalem, years later, with "alms for my nation"? Because that's what the Twelve asked, and what he was eager to do. It was God's economy. "Give to those who have no means to repay you, and your reward will be great in heaven". Do you think this is an earthly teaching? Or something of the minds of fallen humanity? Or rather a revelation from the Father of lights?

Jesus said, "Who eats me will live" but he didn't say "Eat me by pray-reading". Jesus didn't say, "My food is to pray-read scripture". Rather it was to do the will of the Father. And he further said, "As I obey the Father (eat) and live, so you obey (eat) me and live" The word is not for hearing but for doing. The doing is the eating. It's very clear, once you see it.

Paul repeatedly asked all the churches to share with the poor of Jerusalem.

Romans 15:23 But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to visit you, 24 I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to see you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while. 25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem. 27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. 28 So after I have completed this task and have made sure that they have received this contribution, I will go to Spain and visit you on the way.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 8:8 I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich... 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15 as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”

Don't be a disciple in word only, but in deed, by obeying the call by God to be generous (i.e., love) to one another. This is God's economy. Don't look at "the brothers" or their capacity to lead or serve. Certainly don't look at yourself! Look at Jesus, who calls, "Give to one another, forgive, be kind, be merciful, be generous, be patient" If you care for your self, your spiritual 'development' or 'transformation' you will likely be deceived, and self-satisfied. No, give to one another without thought of reward, and your reward will be great in heaven. Because this is God's economy.

Notice that Paul teaches this in every church. He teaches the Rome church, the Corinth church, the Galatian church (1 Cor 16:1), the Macedonian churches (2 Cor 8:1-5). He told Timothy to stay behind and teach this in Ephesus. Why is God's economy based on faith? You have to believe, to give to one another without hoping for earthly return. Your reward will be in heaven. This takes faith. Everywhere Paul went, he taught God's economy. Love one another.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Notice that Paul teaches this in every church. He teaches the Rome church, the Corinth church, the Galatian church (1 Cor 16:1), the Macedonian churches (2 Cor 8:1-5). He told Timothy to stay behind and teach this in Ephesus.

1 Tim 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship [oikodomian, literally 'home-building'] from God that is by faith. (ESV)

Now, where does Paul teach about pray-reading, if this is what he promoted in every church? I was told, "Paul tells us 'pray unceasingly', so why shouldn't we pray while we read?" Well, yes we probably should, but is that God's economy? Shouldn't we then also pray while we give to one another, while we prepare our evening supper? How is pray-reading the practical application of God's economy?

Then I was told, "Thy words were found and I did eat them", but I addressed that in post #11 with Jesus' interpretation of John 4:34. Eating was obedience. Just as Jesus was obedient to the Father's word and lived, so we also should be obedient to his word, and live. See, e. g., John 15:10

And what is his word, which we must obey? Love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. He even gives further interpretation - Who is my neighbour? The answer is in the Good Samaritan - one who reaches beyond himself, and gives without thought of return. The Samaritan's return is in heaven.

The economy of the world is "Every person for themselves, and the devil take the hindmost". The economy of God is, "Everyone gathered, but none had too much, and none lacked", according to 2 Cor 8:15. Once you see it, it's pretty obvious.

A last point. If you look at the feeding of the five thousand, with a few loaves of bread and fishes, Jesus had them all sit in ordered companies. Then he praised the Father for supplying all the needs. Then he broke the bread and handed to the disciples in the front rows.

Now, the disciples in the front rows had a decision, and faith came in. They could either take their fill, gorge until sated, and too bad for the back rows. Or, by faith, they take only what is needed and pass the rest on. They chose the path of faith, and obedience. Take some, share with others. And everyone got fed. This is the economy of God. Nobody is with too much, nobody is hungry. Everyone is taken care of. (And this isn't barrel-of-the-gun Marxism or Socialism - it's loving one another.)

[aron]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

After 10 years of LC Life and I start to know what's the problem and How to solve it.

1. The vision of God's economy (greek: oikonomia) seen by Witness Lee is according to the Bible. There are no problems of most of the teachings of Brother Lee.

2. The real problem is the spirit capacity of Local Church leaders. The Words are pure, but leaders are not pure as the Words. When I relocate to different cities, I found different leaders lead different spiritual atmosphere, though we read the same teaching.

3. The solution of the difficulty of most Local Churches is that we need more leaders who really express the Lord in Love and Light.

4. As a server I need to love the Lord more and express the Lord in Love and Light.

A further note, to my two previous posts, is that bad theology brings bad results. Look at the condition of church members 50 years after "God's economy = shouting/pray-reading/PSRP/etc" was sent forth as a focal point. Some of course have matured, but so have some Presbyterians, 40 or 50 years on their Christian journey. Many, however, have struggled, and haven't done well. They are discouraged, but have no where to go.

Current Most Blended was in town last year, and I caught a bit of the show. He told a story of a sister who after 38 years still isn't transformed, just more peculiar. There she's been calling, calling, calling on the name of Jesus... just call, she was told... "Calling is the way." Decades later, she's assessed by the Maximum Brother, and dismissed - "Sorry, no transformation."

Once the feel-good of shouting, shouting, shouting has worn off, there's nothing there. Just poorly-constructed ideas.

[BreadFish]

Hi, Saints
I truely understand what you are talking. I also acknowledge that there are many problems in Local church. Anyway, we should spend more time to contact with our Lord Jesus and preach Gospel to others, instead of discussing how about Brother Lee, or how about Saint Paul, Saint Barabas? We should follow the good teachings of these brothers, right? Even Barabas left Paul, he is still a pattern of us since he sold all he has and consected himself to the Lord.

Our Lord Jesus told us we should pay more attention to the greater things such as "Love, Mercy, Justice", not one tenth of "celery, fennel", either infinite arguments.

I believe the Lord is working in the Local church. Brothers and Sisters in Local Church are true believers. Those who don't express Lord and misuse debuty authority or otherthings will be resposible for the Lord. Our Lord Jesus is governing all things. The older generation will past, the new generation will rise, the spiritual situation in different Local churchs are updating.

May God bless us.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Hi, Saints
I truely understand what you are talking. I also acknowledge that there are many problems in Local church. Anyway, we should spend more time to contact with our Lord Jesus and preach Gospel to others, instead of discussing how about Brother Lee, or how about Saint Paul, Saint Barabas? We should follow the good teachings of these brothers, right? Even Barabas left Paul, he is still a pattern of us since he sold all he has and consected himself to the Lord.

I truly don't think you do understand. This forum is full of first-hand accounts of the abusive deeds of Local Church members toward others...mostly LC leadership toward those whom they are attempting to "shepherd".

Many of us kept our mouths shut about this abuse, while taking your advice, attempting to maintain "contact with our Lord Jesus". In my case, I have maintained contact with the Lord my entire life. Now his message to me is: SPEAK. Expose the deeds of darkness by whoever practices darkness. If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with the Father. I John 1:7.

Witness Lee was not accountable to anyone but himself. Then, under Witness Lee's leadership, the LC leaders learned that they are not accountable for their sinful behavior. Further, they have no problem abusing their brothers and sisters who "stray". Are these the "problems" you are acknowledging?

You are attempting to deflect the blame for the sins of LC leadership in order to maintain the Witness Lee MOTA illusion.

Perhaps you should deliver this message to those who practice abuse of the brothers and sisters as a way of life. Have you done that? You confront us, but have you confronted the sinning brothers?

Our Lord Jesus told us we should pay more attention to the greater things such as "Love, Mercy, Justice", not one tenth of "celery, fennel", either infinite arguments.

Please provide the "verse" you are referencing. There is more than one verse in the Bible. The penalty for what the LC practices might be described as follows:
n Luke 17:2, Jesus says, "It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." In Mark 9:42, Jesus says, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who trust in me to fall into sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around his neck."

I believe the Lord is working in the Local church. Brothers and Sisters in Local Church are true believers. Those who don't express Lord and misuse debuty authority or otherthings will be resposible for the Lord. Our Lord Jesus is governing all things. The older generation will past, the new generation will rise, the spiritual situation in different Local churchs are updating.

No one here promotes the thought that the Lord is not working in the Local Churches. No one here ever said that the Local Church members are not true believers. This forum exists to discuss the Local Church and the "ministry" of Witness Lee.

We have a real problem with the BEHAVIOR of the Local Church, mostly leadership. We have given multitudes of testimonies of the BEHAVIOR of the LC leadership. We have "covered the brothers" in their sinful behavior long enough. Now is the time to speak.

Those who abuse are responsible NOW. It's called SIN. This is the gospel. Jesus came to save his people from their SINS. Do you believe that the Local Church/leadership are exempt from repenting from their sins? Do you believe that the abusive Local Church leadership are unaccountable for their BEHAVIOR? To do as you suggest is blatant hypocrisy. There is no double standard. We are all the same in His eyes. There is no gospel that says wait until the end and let the Lord clean up the mess we were charged to deal with in our lifetime, in his gospel. Not yours.

Nell

[UntoHim]

My friend Breadfish,
The very fact that you have placed Witness Lee on the same level as "Saint Paul" and "Saint Barnabas" indicates one of the real roots of the problem in in the Local Church/Living Stream Ministry. I'm quite certain that it was not your intention to place Brother Lee in the same category as any of the scripture writing apostles, at least not consciously, however your classification of Lee with these original apostles belies that you have the mindset of the common Local Churcher - That Witness Lee is the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age. Admittedly, I had to chuckle at your "Well, nobody's perfect" example of Barnabas' supposedly leaving and/or abandoning the apostle Paul (a questionable and self-serving narrative given by Lee on many occasions)

I whole heartedly agree that most of the members in the Local Church are true believers, however the "misuse of deputy authority" originated with the founders of the LC movement, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, and by extension the misuse and abuse continues to this very day by their most ardent and militaristic followers, the Blended Brothers. These men have proclaimed Witness Lee as "the acting God", "the one master builder", and that those who do not strictly follow Lee are "spiritually bankrupt". Just who do you suppose these men will appoint as their successors?

So while your quip that "the spiritual situation in different Local churches are updating" sounds rather hopeful, I think we will find that these "different Local churches" will have little to no affect on the powers that be in Anaheim, and thus have little to no affect on the general tact taken by the Local Churches as a movement.
-

I agree that love is everything. I am in the LC to some degree. There has always been trouble in the church i am in because of a lack of love and light. Especially they are cliques and reviling words spoken.
Apologies are never accepted by some leaders and apologies are never given by them for anything they do. It really comes down to love. Love builds up, hatred and division tears down.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Hi, Saints
I truely understand what you are talking. I also acknowledge that there are many problems in Local church. Anyway, we should spend more time to contact with our Lord Jesus and preach Gospel to others, instead of discussing how about Brother Lee, or how about Saint Paul, Saint Barabas? We should follow the good teachings of these brothers, right? Even Barabas left Paul, he is still a pattern of us since he sold all he has and consected himself to the Lord.

Our Lord Jesus told us we should pay more attention to the greater things such as "Love, Mercy, Justice", not one tenth of "celery, fennel", either infinite arguments.

I believe the Lord is working in the Local church. Brothers and Sisters in Local Church are true believers. Those who don't express Lord and misuse debuty authority or otherthings will be resposible for the Lord. Our Lord Jesus is governing all things. The older generation will past, the new generation will rise, the spiritual situation in different Local churchs are updating.

May God bless us.

BreadFish,

Thanks for coming to the forum as a local church member and acknowledging the problems in the local church.

However, related to the rest of your post, if we think of the New Testament, much of it is indeed written discussing the problems and pitfalls at length, and chastising or correcting those whose living is not in line with the gospel. I agree that if a person's ENTIRE emphasis is only on the problems, to the neglect of the gospel, that is a problem, but to take a position that we should in some way not pay attention to the "negative" things or that it's a waste of time to do so is simply not the testimony of the Bible.

As an example of problems discussed in the Bible, we have sins of the heart, adultery, hypocrisy, lording it over others, abuse, sexual immorality, unrepentance, self-aggrandizement, inordinate judgment, false prophets, demon possession, legalism, unrighteousness, hard heartedness, unbelief, blindness, unforgiveness, greed, wickedness, drunkenness, false teachings, lies, slander, and on and on. And that's primarily just the book of Matthew only!

I would also argue that your query that "we should still follow the good teachings of these brothers, right?" is problematic. If someone has a ministry which is composed of a large number of false teachings.....that ministry is too leavened to trust. And anything we follow that Lee happened to get right, we follow because it is right, not because it is Lee who got it right.

With members of this forum continuing to bring the unconfessed evil deeds in the local church to the light, this is indeed paying attention to the greater things such as love, mercy, justice, etc. The amount of people in the local church who have had those very things stolen from them when they should have received them is shameful.

Additionally, Jesus says in Matthew 23 to pay attention to the weightier things without neglecting the small things. If you really consider the problems discussed here to be small, Jesus says not to neglect the small.

Yes, it is true that the Lord is governing, and that those who misuse deputy authority (there is no proper use of deputy authority, by the way, since "deputy authority" is not a New Testament church concept but a known abusive teaching in bad groups) are responsible before the Lord.....but that is nowhere near the full story. It simply isn't true that we avoid problems, or ignore them, or do nothing about them because ultimately "the Lord will take care of it". This is inconceivable! The church is to be light and salt NOW, and professing believers who claim to be light while harboring darkness are hypocrites and liars. Nowhere in the Bible is damaging behavior tolerated in the church.

Please reconsider the way that you think about these things, and start bringing every thought you have, that has been put in you by the ministry, to the light to see if it holds up to the Word. So much of what is in the local church does not.

Please continue to stick around to dialogue.

Trapped

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I agree that love is everything. I am in the LC to some degree. There has always been trouble in the church i am in because of a lack of love and light. Especially they are cliques and reviling words spoken.
Apologies are never accepted by some leaders and apologies are never given by them for anything they do. It really comes down to love. Love builds up, hatred and division tears down.

Love in the LC is a type of love you see in Luke 6:32. Loving those who love them. Lack of love is seen through their reviling words. How many times has a conference or training meeting been used against a Jo Casteel, a Steve Isitt, a Nigel Tomes, a John Ingalls, and so on. Because there is a lack of love, any words of love by LC leaders are received as in 1 Corinthians 13:1.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Luke 6:37-38

Why is there a lack of apologies, lack or forgiveness, and a lack of love in the LC? I can only guess it goes back to the deputy authority teaching. They as the co-workers, elders, and deacons are God's deputy authority. To apologize or to forgive is beneath them. Rather there is the attitude expressed through their behavior, anyone who feels wronged or mistreated must take the cross.

[ACuriousFellow]

I really appreciate your response, Nell. I’d like to add my own two cents.

Here is the first BreadFish quote Nell responded to:

Hi, Saints
I truely understand what you are talking. I also acknowledge that there are many problems in Local church. Anyway, we should spend more time to contact with our Lord Jesus and preach Gospel to others, instead of discussing how about Brother Lee, or how about Saint Paul, Saint Barabas? We should follow the good teachings of these brothers, right? Even Barabas left Paul, he is still a pattern of us since he sold all he has and consected himself to the Lord.

Here was Nell’s response:

I truly don't think you do understand. This forum is full of first-hand accounts of the abusive deeds of Local Church members toward others...mostly LC leadership toward those whom they are attempting to "shepherd".

Many of us kept our mouths shut about this abuse, while taking your advice, attempting to maintain "contact with our Lord Jesus". In my case, I have maintained contact with the Lord my entire life. Now his message to me is: SPEAK. Expose the deeds of darkness by whoever practices darkness. If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with the Father. I John 1:7.

Witness Lee was not accountable to anyone but himself. Then, under Witness Lee's leadership, the LC leaders learned that they are not accountable for their sinful behavior. Further, they have no problem abusing their brothers and sisters who "stray". Are these the "problems" you are acknowledging?

You are attempting to deflect the blame for the sins of LC leadership in order to maintain the Witness Lee MOTA illusion.

Perhaps you should deliver this message to those who practice abuse of the brothers and sisters as a way of life. Have you done that? You confront us, but have you confronted the sinning brothers?

My two cents: I agree that we must be careful to not carelessly say things like “we should follow the good teachings of these brothers” when there are instances of abuse within the church as well as false teachings that are not being delt with. If you have a magnificent teacher who has the happiest highest achieving students who is later found to have abused even one student, that teacher must be delt with swiftly and justly rather than appealing to the “good” they have done. Lee does not come close to even this hypothetical teacher I mentioned. He has covered up abuses and developed a system which perpetrates abuse while constantly telling people to “look away” and ignore the abuse. This is not even including the false teachings, though even if the teachings were sound, the abuse alone is reason enough to deal with such people decidedly. In my private time with the Lord, I spent many hours and days and months and years pondering these things and it was the Lord who rebuked me and told me that I need to speak up rather than continue to remain silent about such things. The same applies to everyone in The Lord’s Recovery.

1 Timothy 5:17-20

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may fear. I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

The second Breadfish quote Nell responded to:

Our Lord Jesus told us we should pay more attention to the greater things such as "Love, Mercy, Justice", not one tenth of "celery, fennel", either infinite arguments.

Nell’s response:

Please provide the "verse" you are referencing. There is more than one verse in the Bible. The penalty for what the LC practices might be described as follows:

n Luke 17:2, Jesus says, "It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." In Mark 9:42, Jesus says, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who trust in me to fall into sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around his neck."

My two cents:

You are telling us to focus on “Love, Mercy, and Justice,” BreadFish? That is exactly what we are doing. There is a significant lack of love, mercy, and justice in The Lord’s Recovery when victims of abuse come forward and are given empty platitudes like “oh brother/sister, just focus on the greater things!” This is compounded by the common Recovery practice of demonizing those who dare to speak up before the congregation. An entry-level course in psychology would be more than enough to show you the folly of such a mindset and strategy, especially when it is repeated over and over and over again with thousands of saints. Lee and the current leaders of The Lord’s Recovery will often say “eat the meat, spit out the bones,” and “don’t focus on garbage,” but you have deadly splinters in your food that saints can choke on and garbage within the pews of your congregations that you are nose-blind to. If you don’t want the saints to eat bones, make the effort to remove them yourself before you feed God’s sheep. If you don’t want them to focus on garbage, then get rid of it and don’t let it stay and stink up the pasture. Do not quench the Spirit by allowing such things to fester in your assembly.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.

The third BreadFish quote:

I believe the Lord is working in the Local church. Brothers and Sisters in Local Church are true believers. Those who don't express Lord and misuse debuty authority or otherthings will be resposible for the Lord. Our Lord Jesus is governing all things. The older generation will past, the new generation will rise, the spiritual situation in different Local churchs are updating.

Nell’s response:

No one here promotes the thought that the Lord is not working in the Local Churches. No one here ever said that the Local Church members are not true believers. This forum exists to discuss the Local Church and the "ministry" of Witness Lee.

We have a real problem with the BEHAVIOR of the Local Church, mostly leadership. We have given multitudes of testimonies of the BEHAVIOR of the LC leadership. We have "covered the brothers" in their sinful behavior long enough. Now is the time to speak.

Those who abuse are responsible NOW. It's called SIN. This is the gospel. Jesus came to save his people from their SINS. Do you believe that the Local Church/leadership are exempt from repenting from their sins? Do you believe that the abusive Local Church leadership are unaccountable for their BEHAVIOR? To do as you suggest is blatant hypocrisy. There is no double standard. We are all the same in His eyes. There is no gospel that says wait until the end and let the Lord clean up the mess we were charged to deal with in our lifetime, in his gospel. Not yours.

Nell

My two cents:

I agree with Nell. As far as I have seen, very few ex-members have concluded that there are no genuine believers in The Lord’s Recovery and that the Lord is doing nothing. If the Lord was doing nothing, I would still have remained in there! As for those who misuse deputy authority, they must answer to the church as well. This is not the age of Saul and David. Witness Lee is not an apostle who cannot be challenged (and Peter is an example that apostles can indeed be rebuked when they act wickedly). We are not called to passively wait and suffer the acts of the older generation who refuses to repent. We are called to judge those within the Lord’s assembly.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

This is not one of the “infinite” arguments such as the age of the earth or some myth or genealogy. This is not how some brother was offended because the brother ahead of him in the lunch line took the last piece of meat-lovers’ pizza. These are matters of abuse as well as the grave doctrinal errors and church practices that have allowed for such abuse to go unanswered and that demonizes those who speak up.

Stop trying to make these things sound like trivial matters by giving your empty platitudes and acting like it’s not that big a deal. Deal with your churches, BreadFish, or the Lord will deal with you as well as the older generation. You will not be innocent before him simply because you passively and silently waited for the old wicked generation to die while you did nothing to stop them. Witness Lee and the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery are not Saul, and you are not young David. They are not uniquely anointed vessels that cannot be challenged or held to a proper standard by their fellow saints, and we must advocate for the weak and downcast rather than tell them to be silent. We have all received the Holy Spirit, and we must all answer the call of our Lord and speak up against wickedness, especially within our own assemblies.

James 4:17

If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Dear brothers and sisters,
After read many posts in this forum, I understand the feelings of brothers and sisters.

First let me introduces a little about myself, I was touched and saved by the Lord directly when I got a bible (not recovery version). Thus I have no LC background. When I came to the Local church I have similiar feelings with most of you.

After 10 years of LC Life and I start to know what's the problem and How to solve it.

As a brother who has had similar experiences and is still serving, I would like to share my own opinions:

1. The vision of God's economy (greek: oikonomia) seen by Witness Lee is according to the Bible. There are no problems of most of the teachings of Brother Lee.

2. The real problem is the spirit capacity of Local Church leaders. The Words are pure, but leaders are not pure as the Words. When I relocate to different cities, I found different leaders lead different spiritual atmosphere, though we read the same teaching.

3. The solution of the difficulty of most Local Churches is that we need more leaders who really express the Lord in Love and Light.

4. As a server I need to love the Lord more and express the Lord in Love and Light.

This is so true. Often they act all nice and friendly (local church elders), but you see them yelling and treating their wife like as if they're some sort of obedient subject.