Lee Family Documents and Results

Hi,

I have searched the forums for historical documents related to Witness Lee's family, but many of the web links no longer seem to be available. I was wondering if anyone had copies so I could see for myself. I am specifically thinking of Philip Lee's excommunication from Anaheim, the letter of apology to Philip Lee, any documents on Timothy Lee dealings, Lee family financial documents... But any documents related to these matters would be interesting to me. I want a better picture of how the Lee dynasty has shaped out

Based on personal experience/second hand account of meeting multiple generation's of descendants of Witness Lee (visiting their personal residencies within the last 10 years), as well as a preliminary financial review of Living Stream (DBA Living Stream Ministry) tax returns, I cannot locate where Witness Lee has funneled his accumulated LSM wealth. It appears LSM makes a substantial amount from donations, but books and training fees are separated clearly in their filings. LSM owns a substantial amount of real estate and it seems to be the predominate use of LSM funds. The directors/managing directors are not overpaid by most means (if you adjust for experience and travel requirements). Highest paid people are under $65 /hour, $130,000 on the year. Directors at similar sized for-profit organizations have compensation packages $300k-600k.

I will list the shortcomings of my research followed by possible theories for wealth placement.
Shortcomings:
1. I only sifted through the financial info of the entities that LSM sent grants to. Most of them also have tax filings available and numbers seem to line up. I don't see any clear skimming of grant money, but for international entities, it is significantly harder to track down information on.
2. I have read that Daystar kept 2 set of books, and my research could all be incorrect due to a separate set of books used for tax filings vs. what actually happens.
3. I have only done a preliminary financial review. I have industry information on book printing, distribution, and sales from experience. Their expenses related to books and media creation seem to be in line with industry standards. Nothing of immediate concern. However, I would need to dig in a bit more to be confident they are not funneling substantial funds through printing vendors.

Theories:
1. International grants to foreign entities are sent to an escrow and a portion is siphoned off before reaching the foreign entity. This would be extremely risky with the non-profit status of the entities as well as on the escrow end.
2. All of the wealth is consolidated under the control of a single line of the Lee dynasty that controls the BB behind the scenes and does not have any desire to help out any of their other family members. Some of the Lee children and grandchildren have lived in the same residencies since his death, and have not exhibited any significant improvement in socioeconomic status.
3. All of the wealth is held overseas, and they can only enjoy it during their trips to Taiwan.
4. Wealthy families in history have squandered all of their wealth within a few generations, could the Lee descendants wasted all of their wealth through more poor investments?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I want a better picture of how the Lee dynasty has shaped out

Hello, that is a challenge, as they are notoriously obscure. There's an anecdote related to (I think) Samuel Chang, one of Lee's relatives and member of the inner coterie. He told one of the young, naiive Americans in the late 1960s, "You have to watch out for Witness Lee's family". He then immediately clapped his hand over his mouth, and said, "Oh!! I shouldn't have said that!!"

I think that story was related by Terry Risenhoover, who became the book-keeper for the DayStar enterprise. Sorry if I can't cite you chapter and verse, but that is a distinct memory of mine. Other readers can verify the story if they like, or question it. But my impression is that the Sicilian Mafia has nothing on these folks - Omerta is the [non]word

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Based on personal experience/second hand account of meeting multiple generation's of descendants of Witness Lee (visiting their personal residencies within the last 10 years), as well as a preliminary financial review of Living Stream (DBA Living Stream Ministry) tax returns, I cannot locate where Witness Lee has funneled his accumulated LSM wealth. It appears LSM makes a substantial amount from donations, but books and training fees are separated clearly in their filings. LSM owns a substantial amount of real estate and it seems to be the predominate use of LSM funds. The directors/managing directors are not overpaid by most means (if you adjust for experience and travel requirements). Highest paid people are under $65 /hour, $130,000 on the year. Directors at similar sized for-profit organizations have compensation packages $300k-600k.

I get the thinking, but (to me) this line of reasoning misses the larger point. In fact LSM and Lee supporters may be happy to see this, because it distracts from and obscures a larger issue: why were they doing this in the first place? Because they've done it. The only question is the frequency, the degree, amounts, and percentages. But they've done it.

But the real question is, why would anyone who makes such a big deal about the New Testament ministry behave like this? You know, people who call themselves "ministers" and those who support them?

Contrast with an example from the NT: suppose Peter had taken the proceeds from the donations in Acts 4, and set up a side business with family members? Even if his family didn't "funnel a substantial amount" into their own pockets, the very fact that they all set something up puts the whole gospel message on its ear. Where in the NT do you see anyone behaving like this?

And don't try, "Don't muzzle a threshing ox". Did Timothy Lee ever get presented as a co-laborer in the fields of the Lord? Philip Lee by his father's own admission was an "unspiritual person".

The only Daystar number I recall was from Boston, that Witness Lee got $200k from them. That came out because one of the principals - Sal Benoit - demanded repayment and the # came to light. I do know that there was pressure on all the local churches for money for Daystar "investment", later changed to "gift". I do know that someone in So. Cal. brought an inheritance to Lee, a "substantial amount" and laid it at his feet, and he immediately turned it over to Timothy Lee for Daystar. But how much in total got funneled through Phosphorous in Tawain, and how much of that got distributed to Witness Lee family and close associates?

Can anyone really follow the numbers with these people? There are probably at least two layers behind the published numbers. Informal relationships.

All I can say is, look at the pattern, established early by merchandiser Watchman Nee and continued by Witness Lee and subsequently by others. WN copied Jessie Penn-Lewis and sold it as his own, "Spiritual Man". He was later removed from his church role, for business dealings involving his brother, with whom he set up a pharmaceutical factory. When the communists took over, he and his associates tried to hide their accumulated wealth by distributing to 63(!!) church members. Talk about money laundering.

Who were the 63 recipients of Nee's money, and how much did each get? I doubt anyone can definitively get numbers and names, and relationships. The veils are established, many of them culturally-reinforced, and essentially impenetrable by outsiders. But the pattern is still clear.

Then, Witness Lee's various money-related fiascos in the Far East, some at least involving family members and church money. Then, Daystar. Then, appointing his son Philip as his Business Manager in Anaheim, over the protests of the elders, many of whom quit when they couldn't take it any more. (I also remember a late-80's or early-90s push for funds to create a skyscraper in Taipei, "for the furtherance of the gospel", of course.)

We also see later iterations of the theme with the Dong Yu Lan family in Brasil: the unquestioned primacy of Leader Number One, and merchandising his 'revelations', and the captive market for Number One family to run their cups under the spigot. Who has the plumbing jobs and landscaping contracts at Estancia Arvore da Vida? How much is taken is almost irrelevant, or what percentage. The gospel message has changed, and the clear impression of conflict of interest has emerged.

I'm not saying numbers are irrelevant. But you don't really need them, to see the pattern, which is completely at variance with the New Testament gospel message... "love one another" becomes "obey Number One. Don't ask questions." Where did the money go, and how much? Don't ask.

This website, or some other linked site, should have the Terry Risenhoover DayStar story, and other accounts like Don Rutledge and John Ingalls, as the first material anyone sees. Once we see the pattern it's unmistakable, what we're dealing with here. It's not merely a few disgruntled former church members, thwarted ambitions and rebellious and dark-hearted. It looks more like a flood of people, running out of a building, coughing and waving their hands in the air, smoke billowing around, patting themselves down. Like, um, maybe the building is on fire?

[Nell]

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ing+truth+love

Not sure what kind of “documents” you’re looking for.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Hello, that is a challenge, as they are notoriously obscure. There's an anecdote related to (I think) Samuel Chang, one of Lee's relatives and member of the inner coterie.

btw, SC was WN's brother-in-law, so definitely "in the know." The story was told by Don Hardy, an officer of Daystar, and friend of TR.

[WitnessALot]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have searched the forums for historical documents related to Witness Lee's family, but many of the web links no longer seem to be available. I was wondering if anyone had copies so I could see for myself. I am specifically thinking of Philip Lee's excommunication from Anaheim, the letter of apology to Philip Lee, any documents on Timothy Lee dealings, Lee family financial documents... But any documents related to these matters would be interesting to me. I want a better picture of how the Lee dynasty has shaped out

Hi Unregistered, you raise a number of interesting points. Regarding the Blended Brothers' salaries, as listed on LSM's 990's, I also noted that the amounts do not seem unreasonable. However, I would consider the following:

-Their travel requirements (and quite possibly related meals) are most likely reimbursed by the churches when they travel for conferences. And to the extent that LSM reimburses them for travel and other expenses related to LSM conferences, that would not be included as part of their salaries.
-Churches pay them an honoraria of sorts when they give conferences. I've heard that it's something in the ballpark of $300 per meeting, though I haven't confirmed this.

If you consider the number of conferences they do throughout the year, and figuring in the value of reimbursed travel and meals, their net take could end up being roughly double their LSM salary. While that's certainly less than the $300-600K figure you cited for other nonprofit leaders, it's likely a very comfortable lifestyle.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by WitnessALot

Hi Unregistered, you raise a number of interesting points. Regarding the Blended Brothers' salaries, as listed on LSM's 990's, I also noted that the amounts do not seem unreasonable. However, I would consider the following:

The Recovery has always been about power and using the Bible to manipulate their members. Lee and the Blendeds always preferred real estate and the accompanying perks over straight salaries. Lee was able to invest in a number of failed businesses knowing that the LC's would cover his losses.

This very thing actually happened when WL left Taiwan in the late 50's. We were all told that this was due to "spiritual persecution for speaking the truth," but actually WL forced the church in Taipei to sell property to cover his own losses, which created chaos in the church there, and resultant expulsion.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have searched the forums for historical documents related to Witness Lee's family, but many of the web links no longer seem to be available. I was wondering if anyone had copies so I could see for myself. I am specifically thinking of Philip Lee's excommunication from Anaheim, the letter of apology to Philip Lee, any documents on Timothy Lee dealings, Lee family financial documents... But any documents related to these matters would be interesting to me. I want a better picture of how the Lee dynasty has shaped out.

I believe that part of the answer is royalties. At some point around the 80s "turmoil," the copyright for Lee's books was changed from Living Stream Ministry to Witness Lee personally (you can see this yourself if you look at various book titles). LSM is still printing books--even new books--under Witness Lee's copyright. Who owns that copyright now, and what percentage of book sales is paid to his heirs?

See this letter to the LSM board of directors from 2003 (six years after Witness Lee's death!!):

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...68.-2207520000.

"This letter is to inform you as a member of the Board of Directors of Living Stream Ministry that there is a special urgent meeting of the entire board of directors... The purpose of this meeting is to give opportunity to the children of Brother Witness Lee to present their view of Brother Lee's will and to make claim to the execution of that will according to their view."

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by WitnessALot

.....If you consider the number of conferences they do throughout the year, and figuring in the value of reimbursed travel and meals, their net take could end up being roughly double their LSM salary. While that's certainly less than the $300-600K figure you cited for other nonprofit leaders, it's likely a very comfortable lifestyle.

I remember once at a conference outside of USA where RK was speaking, two offering boxes were setup. One for regular church offerings and the other for RK. I remember because I thought back then that it was good to help that way. Yet much later when I realized he was on salary, I was like, , what?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This very thing actually happened when WL left Taiwan in the late 50's. We were all told that this was due to "spiritual persecution for speaking the truth," but actually WL forced the church in Taipei to sell property to cover his own losses, which created chaos in the church there, and resultant expulsion.

I always heard that leaving Taiwan to USA was along the lines of: "being sent by the Lord; being commissioned to go to USA for God´s move; sent to take the ministry to US; the US was the top christian country, had to go there as the best base to expand the Recovery and from there reach the world."

Where were all the other brothers sent with him for such a "large and important commission"? Sent alone? As far as I know he just came with immediate family and son(s) in law?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I always heard that leaving Taiwan to USA was along the lines of: "being sent by the Lord; being commissioned to go to USA for God´s move; sent to take the ministry to US; the US was the top christian country, had to go there as the best base to expand the Recovery and from there reach the world."

Where were all the other brothers sent with him for such a "large and important commission"? Sent alone? As far as I know he just came with immediate family and son(s) in law?

He started out selling suits and tennis rackets at the Seattle Fair with his son Timothy.

I no longer believe any piece of history told by WL unless I can corroborate it. If he told me the sun was shining, I would check my weather app. Sounds extreme, yes, but it just informs you how many times what I had heard from WL was not truthful, rather was self-serving.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi, I have searched the forums for historical documents related to Witness Lee's family, but many of the web links no longer seem to be available. I was wondering if anyone had copies so I could see for myself. I am specifically thinking of Philip Lee's excommunication from Anaheim, the letter of apology to Philip Lee, any documents on Timothy Lee dealings, Lee family financial documents... But any documents related to these matters would be interesting to me. I want a better picture of how the Lee dynasty has shaped out

The letter of apology to Philip Lee can be found here: https://blendedbody.com/_cl/_audio/_...2PhilipLee.jpg.

Many of the other historical accounts may be located here: http://web.archive.org/web/200306081...%20History.htm.

P.S.

Just to be perfectly honest, I don’t think that you will get to the bottom of anything that you are trying to get. The maze is deep and wide, and the way it’s built, would require a subpoena to be made public. Here are the reasons:
- LSM corporation is just a tip of an iceberg, and most likely would keep the image of LC clean.
- The financial dealings are usually hidden thru private corporations that are not available for public scrutiny, unless there is a subpoena issued.
- The real estate holdings could be registered as a private LLCs with no way to account for the financial ins and outs.
- All or most LC localities are separate corporations, therefore are not subject to LSMs officers, at least on paper. LSM officers could be easily employed as W2 workers, and not be detected in any public records, unless personal tax returns are exposed.
- All service contacts for building and maintenance, are also different corps and LLCs, which get money under umbrella of “property management and care”.
- All current LSM officers and Lees children, grandchildren and all, could be “employed” by any of the above mentioned entities in the USA or overseas. Nether could be tracked or viewed publicly due to privacy laws in US, and even more harder to get to overseas.
- Unless there is a whistleblower that’s comes out with knowledge or actual paperwork, data and information, you will not get anywhere with this. It’s kind of like trying to nail politicians for all of the back door dealings under the various nonprofit organizations. It’s rarely happens, and for men who couldn’t make it in that arena, but have unquenchable thirst for power and authority, good luck with your quest to unravel this web of deception.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

He started out selling suits and tennis rackets at the Seattle Fair with his son Timothy.

I no longer believe any piece of history told by WL unless I can corroborate it. If he told me the sun was shining, I would check my weather app. Sounds extreme, yes, but it just informs you how many times what I had heard from WL was not truthful, rather was self-serving.

Thinking about all the tall tales I have heard in the Recovery over the years, this verse came to mind:

"In their greed these false teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up." - 2 Peter 2.3

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Based on personal experience/second hand account of meeting multiple generation's of descendants of Witness Lee (visiting their personal residencies within the last 10 years), as well as a preliminary financial review of Living Stream (DBA Living Stream Ministry) tax returns, I cannot locate where Witness Lee has funneled his accumulated LSM wealth.

Having spent time with multiple people serving for many years at LSM and with Lee family members themselves, I think there's a simple explanation as to why it's hard to see LSM wealth rebounding among his descendants: proceeds from LSM activities are funneled into preserving and promoting W Nee and W Lee literature as a primary goal. The late Andrew Yu gave an update on LSM's financial status back in 2000 where-in he listed the assets of LSM (Anaheim Palms, En Gedi, the Standing Order recurring revenue, etc.) in terms of the expected length of time LSM could continue operating to preserve and promote W Lee's ministry. That is where the wealth is concentrated, best guess.

Besides A.L., there's not an extraordinarily wealthy Lee family member (and his wealth comes in large part from import-export business pre-existing BB status). Especially among the third generation, there's no extravagance in evidence. Maybe some benefits (like Grace Gardens housing), but not wealth.

Why? Because, right or wrong, the people running LSM really believe in the mission to put out all of Witness Lee's teaching for posterity.

That's not an exciting tidbit, I'm sure, but it's revealing. Like many organizations staffed with zealous mission-focused adherents, the goal of the organization is promoting the organization.

And this sincerity goes a long way to explaining why otherwise compassionate people would intentionally target and publicly slander victims of Local Church abuse, whether through DCP or from the Blue Chalk Board Backed Pulpit. Say something, true or not, that hurts "the mission" and suffer the wrath of Ron, etc. It also explains how so many otherwise honorable people could participate in large-scale coverups of abuse by persons with responsibility in the Churches or Ministry: "don't hurt the mission!"

This mission is the so-called "Controlling Vision" Lee invoked. It is so powerful as to align adherence with minimal coordination because people know how they're expected to respond to almost any event. The patterns are given through out the ministry materials: no self-vindication, cover the brothers, deny the self, no rebuke from unclean hands (and your hands are so so unclean), ignore poison, don't look at the bones, don't believe your eyes...

....or it simply means as everyone on this post has conceded that WL's descendants are not excessively wealthy, have not fraudulently obtained funds as many on hear try to smear them with, and live normal simple lives....

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

....or it simply means as everyone on this post has conceded that WL's descendants are not excessively wealthy, have not fraudulently obtained funds as many on hear try to smear them with, and live normal simple lives....

This answer above illustrates why I said in post #2 that the Lee supporters may actually prefer this line of inquiry, as it gives them a deflection point:

Originally Posted by aron

...this line of reasoning misses the larger point. In fact LSM and Lee supporters may be happy to see this, because it distracts from and obscures a larger issue: why were they doing this in the first place? Because they've done it. The only question is the frequency, the degree, amounts, and percentages.

The fact that there's no obvious historical documents showing heirs living large on LSM receipts can be used to divert from the fact that there is a smoking gun of WL funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps millions (we don't know the #) of church members' funds in the early 1970s, to one of his sons. In the pitch, they called it "investments", and then many were persuaded to call it a gift, when the money was gone. And then, the Anaheim training seminars began charging money, evidently to raise cash for the ones who demanded repayment. So they were kiting, using training fees to cover Timothy's cash grab. Also known as money laundering.

How much of the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, that went into the Daystar Motorhome and how much went to immediate family and close associates? The fact that any, even one dollar, was taken from church members and went to the Lee family is a clear conflict of interest and exposes the supposed Apostle of the Age as a fraud. In fact, a lot of money went into Daystar, and the Apostle of the Age rubric was a lever to get such massive sums of money, and subsequently to hush up the discontented ones.

To me, that's the real smoking gun here, that the current line of inquiry distracts from. And I'd imagine that Lee supporters are happy for the distraction. The questions of how many times it happened, prior to and after Daystar, and the principals involved, and if it continues today, and with whom, may be open questions. But that it happened seems to be established as agreed-upon fact, by all concerned.

No need to deflect at all from your ignorant conflation of giving $$ to a failed business as opposed to a criminal act of fraud which has never been alleged by anyone including the totally biased opinions of those on this forum. Note a few things:

1) are we really still speaking about something from 50 years ago? What relevance does that have for today?
2) speaking of today to my knowledge a quick glance and it has been tacitly acknowledged here that none of the Lee family lives extraordinary wealthy lives so again not sure why your unsubstantiated potshot “millions” comment is made other than to smear individuals that you are apparently bitter towards.
3) none of the Lee family is even on the LSM board anymore so there’s no wealth being given to them. One of their relatives does serve for LSM, btw, as a chef.
4) the ridiculous assumption that asking for donation dollars to support a profligate son doesn’t add up with the numbers. Donations back then were for $50/training times 1500 attendees. Do the math and you’ll see that number barely covers hired support for the number of serving saints who worked at the ministry….

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

No need to deflect at all from your ignorant conflation of giving $$ to a failed business as opposed to a criminal act of fraud which has never been alleged by anyone including the totally biased opinions of those on this forum. Note a few things:

1) are we really still speaking about something from 50 years ago? What relevance does that have for today?

My first training was Revelations. I heard endless hate for Catholics based on things which happened back in the Dark Ages, a thousand years ago. Obviously WL did not place an expiration date for the sins of others.

2) speaking of today to my knowledge a quick glance and it has been tacitly acknowledged here that none of the Lee family lives extraordinary wealthy lives so again not sure why your unsubstantiated potshot “millions” comment is made other than to smear individuals that you are apparently bitter towards.
3) none of the Lee family is even on the LSM board anymore so there’s no wealth being given to them. One of their relatives does serve for LSM, btw, as a chef.

Whether Lee Family members are getting rich or not is superseded by the wealth of LSM, especially all of their real estate holdings. Have you forgotten that LSM is the most litigious ministry in history? (I Corinthians 6)

4) the ridiculous assumption that asking for donation dollars to support a profligate son doesn’t add up with the numbers. Donations back then were for $50/training times 1500 attendees. Do the math and you’ll see that number barely covers hired support for the number of serving saints who worked at the ministry….

I remember Ball Road holding up to 3,000, and LaPalma holding many more. You also conveniently forgot to mention the Video proceeds from around the globe, and the Standing Order book sales. If it "barely covered hired support," LSM would never have been able to buy the LaPalma Campus, or their other vast real estate holdings, like Grace Gardens and Grace Terrace Memorial.

[aron]

Suppose a person drives coast-to-coast, leaving California and heading to Georgia. Along the way, they commit a terrible crime. Do you think the Judge in Georgia will say, "Since that crime was in Nevada, not on this side of the Mississippi River, we'll let it go"? No, of course not - a crime is a crime, regardless of where or when.

Originally Posted by Ohio

My first training was Revelations. I heard endless hate for Catholics based on things which happened back in the Dark Ages, a thousand years ago. Obviously WL did not place an expiration date for the sins of others.

There's a reason that we still speak of "Judas holding the bag" two thousand years afterward (John 13:29) - because it's instructional. Just as with what WL did to church members 50 years ago, there's probably a lesson for today, should we choose to pay attention.

Originally Posted by Hope

Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home.

This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.

Take a Christian, regardless of background, don't tell them it's Witness Lee, just ask, "What do you think about a church leader - pastor, reverend, or self-styled apostle - who uses their leadership position to push church members to invest in a for-profit business run by their children?" I daresay, many if not most would say that it's clearly unethical. Never mind that subsequently Daystar failed, the money disappeared and church members were told to write it off as a gift - a gift to a for-profit? - just the initial request for funds, in and of itself, by a church authority figure to the church member rank-and-file, is an abuse of position, a clear conflict of interest, and is by definition unethical (And JB holding WL up as God's anointed reinforces that, showing how they'd been put into reflexive compliance).

Witness Lee had a major ethical lapse, which involved financial benefits to immediate family, at the expense of church members. Let's attempt the math: the only dollar figure I've seen is from one church, that in Boston, which was good for $200,000. We also know there were dozens of local churches following Lee, and the push was widespread, if not universal. So the total U. S. "investment" figure was at least in hundreds of thousands, quite possibly in millions. (And how much from Taiwan? WL could get ~6,000 to attend any meeting, per Hope). We also hear from multiple sources that when it failed, the investors were asked to write it off, and while some like Sal Benoit made a fuss and got their money back, others lost their life savings.

(And remember, this was 1972 money, when $45,000 could buy a nice house in the suburbs).

And, at the same time that some jilted investors demanded repayment, LSM started charging $50 a head for ~1,500 Anaheim attendees, which comes to ~$75,000 per training (1972 dollars) which would help offset immediate cash flow issues. Before Daystar, there was no fee, and post-Daystar there was a sudden need for $75,000... to cover training costs, which need apparently hadn't existed prior. Right, got it.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

....WL's descendants are not excessively wealthy, have not fraudulently obtained funds as many on here try to smear them with, and live normal simple lives....

As I said in post #2, LSM defenders prefer this line of inquiry in the OP, as it lets them say "smear" and point out that Lee descendants live apparently normal and simple lives, while we all hopefully ignore that Witness, Timothy, and Philip Lee had led lives that were neither normal nor simple. Poster Ohio tells of a phone call from WL to TC: "You just bought 1,000 chairs." TC then picked up the phone and called his GLA elders, telling each, "You just bought 100 chairs." Evidently Timothy Lee needed funds. I wrote earlier that the only question with the Lee family cash grabs is how often it happened, who got suckered, and for how much. But we know that it repeatedly occurred.

Of course our job as Christians is to forgive. But that's predicated on repentance, and Witness Lee never repented, because exposure and repentance would effectively end his 'apostolic' gig. As soon as it became apparent that he was unqualified to lead the church per NT standards, his cash cow would be over. He'd be no better off than among the heathen gentiles, wondering, "What shall we eat? How shall we live? With what shall we be clothed?" (Matt 6:25). He and sons Timothy and Philip might need to get real jobs, like the rest.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Poster Ohio tells of a phone call from WL to TC: "You just bought 1,000 chairs." TC then picked up the phone and called his GLA elders, telling each, "You just bought 100 chairs."

This brings back memories. After our local elder told us that we just bought 100 "gold" chairs, we then needed to pick them up in Cleveland. I heard that TC was planning to visit us, so in my naivety I suggested that TC could rent a truck and deliver them to us. The elder immediately nipped that suggestion in the bud. At that point of my churchlife experience, all the other brothers, including the older brothers, were just, you know, "brothers," so I thought my idea was a good one. Little did I know ...

But even I, as naive as I was, would not have bought 100 chairs sight unseen. Those were the junkiest particle board chairs I have ever seen. I actually developed a "brothers-production-line" scheme for injecting with syringes a fast-drying 2-part epoxy into the seat backs to provide secure grip for the screws.

[Nell]

To Register For Forum Membership Please Send Email To: Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com. Be Sure To Include Your Desired Username!

Please register for membership in the forum! You've been given a lot of rope to post, so it's time to ante up. This has been a pretty good discussion, so you need to register for membership for your participation to continue.

Nell
Admin/Moderator

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This brings back memories. After our local elder told us that we just bought 100 "gold" chairs, we then needed to pick them up in Cleveland. I heard that TC was planning to visit us, so in my naivety I suggested that TC could rent a truck and deliver them to us. The elder immediately nipped that suggestion in the bud. At that point of my churchlife experience, all the other brothers, including the older brothers, were just, you know, "brothers," so I thought my idea was a good one. Little did I know ...

But even I, as naive as I was, would not have bought 100 chairs sight unseen. Those were the junkiest particle board chairs I have ever seen. I actually developed a "brothers-production-line" scheme for injecting with syringes a fast-drying 2-part epoxy into the seat backs to provide secure grip for the screws.

In hindsight someone had quite a monopoly with those gold colored chairs. I remember back in 1979 when my family moved to the San Bernardino area, the LC there had the same gold colored chairs as there was in Anaheim. I remember thinking what a coincidence. Years later in 1993 when I moved to Washington state I remember seeing the same gold colored chairs in Bellevue as San Bernardino and Anaheim had. Another coincidence, Seattle and Portland had the same gold colored chairs. How many coincidences until it is no longer a coincidence?

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Whether Lee Family members are getting rich or not is superseded by the wealth of LSM, especially all of their real estate holdings.

Has anyone talked about LSM's unspoken but widely understood church meeting hall perk? Whenever an LC (in good standing with headquarters) seriously pursues the purchase of a building to meet in - or to build one from the ground up, those local leaders somehow know that they can expect a nice fat check will arrive from LSM in support of their franchise expansion project.

The LSM meeting hall slush fund - just one more worldly reason to remain loyal to the ministry of the age?

P.S.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Has anyone talked about LSM's unspoken but widely understood church meeting hall perk? Whenever an LC (in good standing with headquarters) seriously pursues the purchase of a building to meet in - or to build one from the ground up, those local leaders somehow know that they can expect a nice fat check will arrive from LSM in support of their franchise expansion project.

The LSM meeting hall slush fund - just one more worldly reason to remain loyal to the ministry of the age?

P.S.

P.S. - How exactly does this work?
Is it simply funds that are granted?
Or is it in the form of a long term loan? Should a local church want to sever ties with LSM, they really don't have financial flexibility to do so. If they did, repayment would be expected in full?