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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 11-18-2020, 11:53 AM   #1
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Default Thoughts On The Libel Suit?

Hi all,
What are your thoughts on the 1985 Lee et al v. Duddy et al? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_..._controversies for a broad description, and the actual court judgment is at https://contendingforthefaith.org/en...y-and-the-scp/ (I'm not a fan of that website, it's just the only place I could find more details about the case). I actually read through the judgment, and it makes me pretty angry that the local churches actually won the libel suit. It seem to be mostly because the defendants didn't show up. According to the Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP, who helped publish Duddy's book), whom I called recently, the whole thing was very traumatic for them. They said the local churches were just too powerful and rich. Which is so hypocritical to me based on what I was taught when I was forced to grow up in the church! From the ruling:

"The false statements also convey to the readers that plaintiffs are engaged in a program of deceptive recruiting practices that prey upon weak and vulnerable people in order to bring them under the plaintiffs' total subjugation; that plaintiffs control every area of Local Church members' lives through the use of fear and other various techniques of mental manipulation and social isolation..." (p.24)

There's more in the concluding summary, and the ruling goes into more detail on each point, but so much of what was declared libelous strikes so true to me. Examples:

"The express and implied statements in the defendants' publications that plaintiffs and Local Church leaders control every aspect of church members' lives, including discouraging friendships, prohibiting dating, arranging marriages, controlling the use of finances, dictating where members should live or work are all false and defamatory." (p.9)

"The express and implied statements in defendants' publications that Witness Lee and the Local Church elders isolate members from society and forbid or discourage members from watching television, reading newspapers, going to movie theaters, and participating in sports, is false and defamatory." (p.11)

No it isn't! I was taught those things growing up! I wasn't allowed to date, even in college. I had to live in the sisters' house. I was shamed when I talked to a boy one-on-one on campus. I was discouraged from non-church friendships, or friendships that weren't for the gospel. I wasn't supposed to watch TV. I was supposed to be isolated from the world. This ruling makes me feel so powerless, frustrated, and angry that the truth was legally hidden from the world! I should mention, I haven't actually read Duddy's God-Men yet. I'm looking to get a copy; it isn't in print anymore due to the libel suit.

Anyways, what are your thoughts?
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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Anyways, what are your thoughts?
Some of us lived thru that lawsuit in the aftermath of the Jonestown massacre, so we supported the lawsuits. The tension surrounding the LC, and that was back in the day when the LC's had meetings full of the Spirit, was almost unbearable for some. The books had the families of the saints just spooked. A number of young people were hijacked and "deprogrammed." Many were never the same. It's hard to compare today to then. While I disagree with lawsuits against Christians, some of us lost everything due to those books.
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Old 11-18-2020, 03:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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Some of us lived thru that lawsuit in the aftermath of the Jonestown massacre, so we supported the lawsuits. The tension surrounding the LC, and that was back in the day when the LC's had meetings full of the Spirit, was almost unbearable for some. The books had the families of the saints just spooked. A number of young people were hijacked and "deprogrammed." Many were never the same. It's hard to compare today to then. While I disagree with lawsuits against Christians, some of us lost everything due to those books.

What do you mean hijacked and deprogrammed? How were they never the same? In what way did you lose everything? Sorry, I don't mean to interrogate! I'm curious as to your experience, as someone who was alive at the time.
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Old 11-18-2020, 05:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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What do you mean hijacked and deprogrammed? How were they never the same? In what way did you lose everything? Sorry, I don't mean to interrogate! I'm curious as to your experience, as someone who was alive at the time.
There were a number of people in Ohio who were basically "kidnapped" by so-called "de-programmers" who were paid by their families. I was told they learned their techniques from the military. When they returned, they were badly shaken up, kind of like PTSD.
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Old 11-18-2020, 07:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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There were a number of people in Ohio who were basically "kidnapped" by so-called "de-programmers" who were paid by their families. I was told they learned their techniques from the military. When they returned, they were badly shaken up, kind of like PTSD.
I...find that hard to believe. Why not include that in the libel suit? It's a little far fetched for there to not be a record of it.
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Old 11-18-2020, 08:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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I...find that hard to believe. Why not include that in the libel suit? It's a little far fetched for there to not be a record of it.
Think about it. Who would you sue? Your own family?
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Old 11-18-2020, 08:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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Think about it. Who would you sue? Your own family?
I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, but yes, I would happily sue my parents, if I could find a lawyer to take the case. Anyways, I think we're going down a bit of a nebulous rabbit hole here.
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Old 11-18-2020, 09:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, but yes, I would happily sue my parents, if I could find a lawyer to take the case. Anyways, I think we're going down a bit of a nebulous rabbit hole here.
You asked questions about books, lawsuits, and how we were affected. I tried to share a perspective from someone who lived thru it. Sorry if that is a nebulous rabbit hole to you. Perhaps others can help you.
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Old 11-18-2020, 10:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

ExChurchKid, when you say "why not include that in the libel suit", did you mean "why did the sued party (SCP, Duddy) not bring up the deprogramming attempts in order to show that the local churches are a cult"?

If that's what you meant, to be honest I'm not sure how many people even knew about it. I've been around for decades and this is the first time I've ever heard of deprogramming attempts like this. It may not have been common knowledge.

As for why "deprogrammed" kids didn't sue their own parents, if they were suffering from PTSD, they probably had zero mental/emotional/physical resources to do such a thing. PTSD wreaks havoc on a person. They may have barely been able to get through each day.

As a fellow church kid, I also agree that the quotes you shared from the suit match up very well with my experience too. They are true as far as I'm concerned. I would say "control EVERY aspect" is going too far, but the overall description is sadly accurate. The fear and intimidation techniques are just very subtle, covert, hidden, and manipulative. Never overtly stated. Much implication and insinuation, threats in God's name.
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Old 11-19-2020, 05:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

Ok, I say a little more.

After I moved away for college, the local newspaper ran front page headline news on the church in Cleveland every day for a week. The reporter interviewed LC leaders as a "friend," but was totally disingenuous. The story theme was like that verse in Acts, "those who turned the world upside down have come here too." Try to consider the mindset of Clevelanders some 40+ years ago, post Jonestown.

I heard of 3 cases of kidnapping and "deprogramming." Later on I overheard that my own family considered it. My own cousin was actively following around the brothers at the university just like the Judaizers did to the Apostles, "get away from this guy, don't you know he is in a cult." Everything concerning me was done in secret, however, and not one family member ever discussed their concerns with me directly.

A brother later told me what happened to his colleague at work, perhaps his supervisor, IIRC. The man came to some meetings and joyfully received the Lord. He shared the good news with his wife. She freaked reading the news. She hired people. The guy disappeared, and then returned completely different. Yes, you could say that he was like the seed planted in shallow soil that initially grew well, (Matt 23.20-21) but then died when the sun got too bright, but very few could survive that intense pressure.

It's easy to condemn every LC member today, but back then they were like those in Smyrna clinging to their Savior, and the Son of Man had no complaints about them whatsoever.
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Old 11-19-2020, 06:27 AM   #11
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

Trapped,

I more meant along the lines of why didnt the LC bring up kidnappings as an effect of what the books were saying. I've never heard of kidnappings either, which is why I'm a little skeptical. I'm also still not sure what deprogramming refers to. I've only ever heard to spoken in a positive sense, as in the churchlife programed me (brainwashed, in a sense) and I need to undo that. But I get Ohio's point, that some people saw the lawsuit as a way to stop the persecution. I just thought the discussion was going a bit down a vague rabbit hole and thought I should bow out. It's nice to hear that some of the things I quoted struck true with you as well! I still think we should do something. Get those books back in print, write our own ex-members book, or something.
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Old 11-19-2020, 06:51 AM   #12
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Default The suit was "uncontested". Lee and Freeman didn't "win".

All--

Keep in mind that the "God-Men" lawsuit was, as it states in the Decision, "uncontested". That means, what actually happened: the LC drove Neil Duddy into bankruptcy and he had no means to pay a lawyer, put on witnesses, or rebut in any way the LC's counter to his book...as follows:

As stated in thelordsrecovery.org (The mission of The Lord's Recovery website is: EXPOSING THE CHRISTIAN CULT OF WITNESS LEE'S LOCAL CHURCH MOVEMENT)

3. In December of 1980, Witness Lee, William Freeman, and the Recovery church in Anaheim filed a lawsuit against the author of The God-Men, the Swiss publisher of the German version of the book, and Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP). SCP could not defend themselves in court due to the extensive financial obligations of the lawsuit. This forced SCP into bankruptcy. SCP was removed from the lawsuit (apologeticsindex.org).

4. The author of The God-Men, Neil Duddy, was still in the lawsuit from December of 1980 and eventually did not have the finances or manpower to take on the Recovery. Living in Denmark at the time, he elected not to go the U.S. and fight the legal battle. The Recovery had a default hearing (meaning that the defense, SCP, could not speak), and the judge ruled in the Recovery’s favor, an award of $11.9 million.


So technically, Witness Lee and Bill Freeman did not "win" the lawsuit. The judge ruled in the Recovery's favor because they defaulted; Neil Duddy and SCP were defunded and run out of business and could not defend their cause of action...they could not speak. It should be noted that eventually, Bill Freeman left the Local Church.

So it's a shallow "victory" in that Lee shut Duddy up. And, the check is in the mail. If Duddy could not defend the lawsuit against him, he certainly could not pay the $11.9 million judgment.

Nell
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Old 11-19-2020, 07:00 AM   #13
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Default Deprogramming

All--

You should find this article from the Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1977 interesting. It details the account of a deprogramming session of Joyce Daly, 20, who was attending the Church in Houston and was snatched away by her parents and deprogrammed.

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Old 11-19-2020, 07:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: Deprogramming

Nell,

Thanks so much for the detailed response, and that article too. The de-programming does sound terrible, and I don't think it was right. Neither do I think the lawsuit was right. In a way, because much of the truth of the recovery was declared libelous and not exposed (although like you said it wasn't a complete win, the books were still pushed out of print and the critics were silenced), many church kids have suffered what I would call "programming". Obviously not as acutely traumatizing as what is described in the article, but definitely long-lasting misery. Anyways, I mostly just wanted to gauge if anyone thought (like I do) that perhaps we could do something to change things. Publish our own book or the like. I called the SCP and they definitely don't want to revisit the libel case or the Duddy book.
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Old 11-19-2020, 08:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: The suit was "uncontested". Lee and Freeman didn't "win".

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So technically, Witness Lee and Bill Freeman did not "win" the lawsuit. The judge ruled in the Recovery's favor because they defaulted; Neil Duddy and SCP were defunded and run out of business and could not defend their cause of action...they could not speak. It should be noted that eventually, Bill Freeman left the Local Church.
As an aside, I hate it when big business with deep pockets are able to silence the "little guy" because he runs out of money. On a superficial level, this once happened to me over a property dispute. I stood before the magistrate all alone, while my opponent had a dream team of lawyers, and were willing to lie under oath, knowing there would never be consequences. It was a nasty feeling of overwhelming defeat and shame. I basically took my evidence and ran out of that court room.

On the other hand, back to our story, at the same time back in the late 70's, there was a second, but similar, book against LSM published by Thomas Nelson called Mindbenders by Jack Sparks, an associate of Duddy. They decided to settle the suit filed by WL/LSM out of court, after the deposition of facts, when they definitely had the financial resources to fight to the end.

I also heard that Duddy came to a meeting years later and repented to WL for what he had written. Can anyone confirm this?

There are definitely two sides to this story.
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Old 11-19-2020, 09:34 AM   #16
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

But do we all agree that the local church is a cult?
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Old 11-19-2020, 11:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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But do we all agree that the local church is a cult?
Personally, I agree with this statement.
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Old 11-19-2020, 11:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

The Local Churches definitely are a personality cult- who obsess and idolize the man named- Witness Lee.

Hilarious example- I remember viewing a thread on here and someone leaked a video (2018 blending conference church of irvine) on a popular figure named minrou chen. He said he had felt the spirit of witness lee inside of himself and that witness lee was by his side watching over him.................................. I expected him to correct himself and somehow acknowledge to some extent that, the statement he just said was ridiculous and his tongue slipped. But no, he stuck by that statement and try soften it by saying he was not boastful in that statement and that he just humbly and gracefully believes that the spirit of witness lee is within him and intertwined within himself. I expected everyone to realize that this was teh breaking point of Witness lee ass kissing- but not they continue to shout Amen as they usually do. Just mindless people who are to myopic to see the madness of this man or too scared to act differently cause of how popular witness lee is. This is just one sample of the many acts of looney you will see in the LC, if you stick long enough and they trust you enough to expose themselves.

The Local Churches are a Christian sect/personality cult- whose identity and madness stems from the exaltation of witness lee as an individual and his doctrine. There is many bible verses warning of these very things: popular men, false doctrine, false teachers etc... Some people will have the sense to avoid these false pretenses by warnings from scripture and/or life experiences. Others will not and continue to fall to these groups. The local churches are one of the many looney groups out there. They will continue to exist and hide under the shadows. They can never prosper and be open completely with who they are simply because of what they truly represent(long list.......). Im sorry but a majority of believers are not going to comply with the customs of the local churches.

If the local churches are fine with this and accept the fact that they are a small bubble of loonies- then let them have at it. The vain repetition of amen and calling to the lord, idolizing man, extreme legalism to the point of counter productive growth, heresy in relations to doctrine/scripture- they can keep all these things and have the few people with them willing to put up with it. As for all the forms of abuses and control they have over peoples lives- Im sorry for the people who had to suffer this. I recently have a close brother/friend who is experiencing an attempt over the most important aspect of his life and he is not taking it well and is trying to figure out his place in life due to all this. Outside of heresy- the actions the LC commits in regards to peoples livelihood is repugnant and comes as a runner up in the many things wrong with the LC.

Maybe Witness Lee had the chance to truly create this worldwide group of churches that sings hymns and gather in a circle and express their love for god. But he just had to put himself in between it all. His lifestyle choices and beliefs, his doctrine, his customs, his culture- he had to stuff it all in their to create the local churches in "HIS" image. It had to be about him, everything had to be about him. The Local Churches are really just a complete copy of Witness Lee. They attempt to follow Christ but this man named witness Lee is the biggest barrier in doing so. Some manage to get by and get past the witness Lee fiasco, while many others suffer one way or another due to it.

- Witness Lee would probably rather have the Local Churches burn down to the ground rather than have himself be demphasized in any way. He felt as though the local churches owe him complete submission because of his role in growing them. To be honest he had a lot of "cOwOrKeRS" assist him to an extent people dont really recognize all that often. Regardless its his pridge and ego with himself that is the curse of the local churches. Instead of becoming something real special and perhaps prosperous- witness lee ruined the local churches by putting himself at the top of everything in regard to church practices. Now the local churches are a personality cult that relies on duping college students into beliving teh christians on campus group is just a group of non denomination christians trying to worship christ together................ Think about that for a second............. When underhanded deception is your sole tactic for growing in numbers- you know something is inherently wrong. Idk how the full timers feel when they have to drown themselves in false pretense in order to dupe a bunch of 18 year olds to join a personality cult.

Q. Any people here have stories of full timers just getting fed up with the hogwash deception involved in campus recruiting?

- Btw somebody link that video of Minrou with a time stamp of his heresy.
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Old 11-19-2020, 01:02 PM   #19
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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But do we all agree that the local church is a cult?
They were not a cult like Jonestown, which is what they were compared to when these two books were written.
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Old 11-19-2020, 02:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Deprogramming

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All--

You should find this article from the Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1977 interesting. It details the account of a deprogramming session of Joyce Daly, 20, who was attending the Church in Houston and was snatched away by her parents and deprogrammed.

Nell
I never knew this event with this sister had taken place! With the changes taking place in American society, especially after 1965, a lot of young people weren't going along with their parents traditions. A good number got into other life styles, teachings, following certain leaders, etc. There was great anxiety and fear in society because of the extreme cultism and horrible ending of Jonestown.
So some went to the extreme of trying to "deprogram" their loved ones.

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Old 11-19-2020, 05:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

jigsaw44, thanks for this post (left below).

I was very impressed with this statement :

"If the local churches are fine with this and accept the fact that they are a small bubble of loonies- then let them have at it."


Harold
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If the local churches are fine with this and accept the fact that they are a small bubble of loonies- then let them have at it. The vain repetition of amen and calling to the lord, idolizing man, extreme legalism to the point of counter productive growth, heresy in relations to doctrine/scripture- they can keep all these things and have the few people with them willing to put up with it. As for all the forms of abuses and control they have over peoples lives- Im sorry for the people who had to suffer this. I recently have a close brother/friend who is experiencing an attempt over the most important aspect of his life and he is not taking it well and is trying to figure out his place in life due to all this. Outside of heresy- the actions the LC commits in regards to peoples livelihood is repugnant and comes as a runner up in the many things wrong with the LC.
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Old 11-19-2020, 08:06 PM   #22
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Default 2007-Chronology of Lawsuits and Threats

I had a habit of downloading threads from the other forum. I thought that the history should be preserved in case something happened to the Bereans Forum. Something happened and all that history is gone...except what I downloaded and saved. Maybe others downloaded too...I don't know. Included are threats made against the churches in the midwest and the Titus Chu quarantine.

I've attached the chronology thread as titled above. Most of the links are likely broken. I haven't checked them all but I'm not hopeful. I didn't compile this list but downloaded it from somewhere.

I deleted the food fights that developed...anyone remember Bilbodog? The original Dog-Man.

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Old 11-19-2020, 08:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: 2007-Chronology of Lawsuits and Threats

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anyone remember Bilbodog...
I remember the Dog. He was ornery but I liked him.

And I miss the old Bereans forum. Such a colossal loss. Tried to get them to give me a copy of all the data, but they wouldn't They didn't see all the loss that we suffered, of personalities, history, testimonies, records, etc. A giant loss. A crying shame.
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Old 11-19-2020, 11:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: Thoughts On The Libel Suit?

For a complete account of the Harvest House lawsuit look here.

It was around this time (2005) that I/we discovered the existence of God-Men socks being worn by those brothers who we can only imagine, had "arrived". Yes. God-Men socks. The mind boggles.
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: 2007-Chronology of Lawsuits and Threats

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I had a habit of downloading threads from the other forum. I thought that the history should be preserved in case something happened to the Bereans Forum. Something happened and all that history is gone...except what I downloaded and saved. Maybe others downloaded too...I don't know. Included are threats made against the churches in the midwest and the Titus Chu quarantine.

I've attached the chronology thread as titled above. Most of the links are likely broken. I haven't checked them all but I'm not hopeful. I didn't compile this list but downloaded it from somewhere.

Nell
All the legal action against the church in Toronto, ON could also be added to the list. The Concerned Brothers website lists much of that hellish fiasco.
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Old 11-20-2020, 09:55 AM   #26
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Default Re: Thoughts on the libel suit?

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The Local Churches definitely are a personality cult- who obsess and idolize the man named- Witness Lee.
I can agree with this. My last personal contact was at the Church in Tacoma (WA) about 10 years ago. I went to a Sunday gathering, as we were RVing around and had camped not far from Tacoma. The meeting started well with good singing. But after the "coffee break" the sharing by the saints was 100% focused on WL and his writings. One by one people stood up and shared what they had seen from the prescribed readings from WL materials that week.

I don't believe I heard one thing that wasn't all centered on WL teachings at that Tacoma LC gathering. This was a huge contrast for me, and I was deeply impressed that these ones were being ripped-off in their fresh and individual experience of Christ. If they did have an experience 1-on-1 with the Lord that week, they didn't share it. There was not one testimony like, "The Lord really spoke to me in something last week," or "I was reading such & such passage and the Lord touch me . . ." sort of thing. Not one, at least that I remember. As I became aware of this, I began looking intently for something fresh, which demonstrated that the saints there really were personally encouraged and touched by Christ in their individual walks - didn't happen. It was more than a little sad.

And Nell, thanks for sharing that Houston newspaper article. I didn't know about deprogramming incidents at all! Wow! Kind of funny that the deprogrammed sister's family was Roman Catholic - perhaps the biggest cult of them all!!! And the LC definitely doesn't fall into the mold of a lot of what might be called "dangerous cults." I think we should be careful in using that term. Saying something is a dangerous cult puts it, at least in my mind, with the Jonestown or Branch Davidian groups. These groups were dangerous on a different level than the LC I think. That is, while there is the cult of WL personality, at least they are not going to whip-up a batch of poisoned Koolaid or get in a shootout with authorities . . .

Also, I found it interesting that the Houston Elder was quoted as saying, "We follow the teachings of Witness Lee . . ." This reminds me of an elder I heard firsthand, who stood up in the LC in Berkeley and loudly proclaimed, "We follow the teachings of a man! And we're going to follow this man right into the kingdom!" I sensed something deep within, when he spoke this, that was most unsettling to me.
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:16 AM   #27
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While I do agree with the general sentiment that the Lord's Recovery isn't a kool-aid drinking type cult, I also think that the damage it does to kids raised by parents in the organization is often overlooked. Being forced to grow up in the local churches left me with anxiety, depression, and a severe lack of close friends and family. The Recovery isolates, shames, and controls, especially the kids. Those are aspects of a cult.
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:43 AM   #28
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While I do agree with the general sentiment that the Lord's Recovery isn't a kool-aid drinking type cult, I also think that the damage it does to kids raised by parents in the organization is often overlooked. Being forced to grow up in the local churches left me with anxiety, depression, and a severe lack of close friends and family. The Recovery isolates, shames, and controls, especially the kids. Those are aspects of a cult.
Yes . . . sorry for your experience. Maybe we should say "damaging cult" instead of "dangerous cult." Or maybe have a one to ten point scale for this. (1 might be "mildly milquetoast cult" to 10 "a Jonestownesque cult")

(May I also make a general observation here . . . Not to diminish your negative LC experience in any way, but I think there is a kind of halo affect with these kinds of online discussions. That is, when people have a forum to express their negative experiences, that's what you get - negative experiences . . . and a lot of them. It's akin to consumer experience websites. You go on these things and the comments run at least 80-90% negative, listing all kinds of bad experiences with a product or service. Yet that company is likely doing a lot of good things too. However, not much good is expressed on these websites. Get what I mean? They are there for the airing of grievances. So my experience is if you say something negative about the LC on here, you'll probably get 10 people confirming that experience. If you say something remotely good about the LC, maybe one person will agree.)
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:55 AM   #29
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I agree, cults are on a spectrum. I'm not sure I agree with the halo effect thing. In any case, I'm looking for like minded people who see the LC as damaging, who can sympathize with being forced into it, and who want to do something about it. I don't think there's any good the Recovery can do that would outweigh the damage it does.
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Old 11-20-2020, 11:09 AM   #30
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I agree, cults are on a spectrum. I'm not sure I agree with the halo effect thing. In any case, I'm looking for like minded people who see the LC as damaging, who can sympathize with being forced into it, and who want to do something about it. I don't think there's any good the Recovery can do that would outweigh the damage it does.
Sure. You'll find plenty like that here!

My LC experience wasn't that bad, and I know the Lord lead me there in 74. But I also praise Him he lead me out in the late 1980s. (plus the localities I was in, at least in in Ohio in the 80s, didn't revolve as closely around Anaheim back then) And I don't think my kids had too much in the way of negative experiences there . . . at least the one son I've asked so far didn't seem to think so.
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Old 11-20-2020, 11:12 AM   #31
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3. In December of 1980, Witness Lee, William Freeman, and the Recovery church in Anaheim filed a lawsuit against the author of The God-Men, the Swiss publisher of the German version of the book, and Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP). SCP could not defend themselves in court due to the extensive financial obligations of the lawsuit. This forced SCP into bankruptcy. SCP was removed from the lawsuit (apologeticsindex.org).
I didn't realize Bill's name was on this. It's interesting that just a few years later, he found himself on the outs . . .
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Old 11-20-2020, 12:29 PM   #32
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So my experience is if you say something negative about the LC on here, you'll probably get 10 people confirming that experience. If you say something remotely good about the LC, maybe one person will agree.
I hate to break the bad news to you my friend Sons to Glory!, but I think the 10-1 ratio here says much more about the Local Church of Witness Lee than it does of the former members, wouldn't you say? I think that if you contacted any 11 former members of your local Baptist or Lutheran church, or some community church, you wouldn't likely find that 10 out of the 11 had such "negative" things to say about them.

For me personally, I rarely talk about my personal experiences. I had some good experiences, some not so good experiences and some outright horrible experiences. (I briefly worked up in "the tape room" in Anaheim in the 1970s. Saw a lot. Heard a lot. I have no burden or peace to speak further about it.) I experienced a lot of "camaraderie" with the brothers and sisters. There are many forum members here who have found it quite cathartic to speak of their personal experiences. It seems that most of the church kids and women/sisters have come to share and dialogue about their negative experience. I think this might be a function of the repressive nature of the atmosphere in the Local Church. This seems to have greatly affected those who have grown up in the movement. It also seems to have greatly affected the women/sisters.

As the admin/moderator I have never discouraged or encouraged anyone to share about their negative experiences. Neither have I ever discouraged anyone from sharing their positive experiences. My experience is my experience. Your experience is your experience. Over the years, some people have complained about all the "negative" testimonies, and have implied that people are discouraged from sharing their "positive" experiences, and that I as the admin/moderator should do something about this. Unfortunately, this is just not how a public forum operates. Either it is an open discussion forum or it is not. For those who would like to hear only positive things about the Local Church of Witness Lee, there are dozens of LSM owned/operated websites out there. They sing the praised of Nee and Lee and their little sect. There is no open dialogue allowed. The only testimonies that are published are those of longtime LC members who only function as shills. It's very sad.

Then there are those of us on this forum who don't have a lot of interest in sharing/dialoguing about our personal experiences. As I said, I had some good experiences and some bad experiences. But they are my personal experiences and I don't have much burden or interest in sharing them in public. If someone wants to talk with me about my personal experiences then I would be more than happy to do so on the PM system or private email, or even a phone call. My burden and interest is more on the side of the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church Movement. Of course in the dialoging about the teachings and practices it often does spill over to our "experiences". And that's fine with me! Again, I'm not against anyone sharing about their personal experiences, good, bad or indifferent.
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Old 11-20-2020, 12:43 PM   #33
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Really, really well said. I agree that the ratio if negative to positive experiences is more indicative of the nature of the Recovery than any sort of halo effect. I just want to say, so far I'm really appreciating this website. You're right about the repression, especially for women. It feels really good to say what I've been feeling for so long but haven't had the right place to express it.
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Old 11-20-2020, 12:53 PM   #34
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I hate to break the bad news to you my friend Sons to Glory!, but I think the 10-1 ratio here says much more about the Local Church of Witness Lee than it does of the former members, wouldn't you say? I think that if you contacted any 11 former members of your local Baptist or Lutheran church, or some community church, you wouldn't likely find that 10 out of the 11 had such "negative" things to say about them.
I figured you'd reply to that! But the kind of contact you mention above is random, and therefore the results would be more random and accurate. But if you set something up to air grievances about something, that's pretty much what you get, right? At least that'll be the predominance of responses. There's also been several studies done about the proportion of people that complain verses those that have had a good experience, and the ratio of people who will talk about bad experiences is much, much higher than those who've had voice good experiences. In other words, this forum is something of a magnet for LC related grievances.*

With that said, I do, sincerely, appreciate the openness of this forum! Thanks for your service . . .

(*and do I need to put my quasi-legal disclaimer on here again that I'm not "all in the tank for the LC"? )
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Old 11-20-2020, 01:13 PM   #35
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So you think that this forum was merely "set up to air grievances about something"? Would you care to restate that?
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Old 11-20-2020, 01:24 PM   #36
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Even if this forum were a magnet for LC grievances, wouldn't the sheer number of grievances still be saying something? If there were no grievances, they wouldn't follow the magnetic field over to this site. The magnet doesn't create the things it attracts.
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:13 PM   #37
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For a complete account of the Harvest House lawsuit look here.

It was around this time (2005) that I/we discovered the existence of God-Men socks being worn by those brothers who we can only imagine, had "arrived". Yes. God-Men socks. The mind boggles.
God-Men socks might pair well with holy underwear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
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Old 11-20-2020, 03:03 PM   #38
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God-Men socks might pair well with holy underwear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
I'm sure they would! ✔️
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Old 11-20-2020, 03:48 PM   #39
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I figured you'd reply to that! But the kind of contact you mention above is random, and therefore the results would be more random and accurate. But if you set something up to air grievances about something, that's pretty much what you get, right? At least that'll be the predominance of responses. There's also been several studies done about the proportion of people that complain verses those that have had a good experience, and the ratio of people who will talk about bad experiences is much, much higher than those who've had voice good experiences. In other words, this forum is something of a magnet for LC related grievances.*

With that said, I do, sincerely, appreciate the openness of this forum! Thanks for your service . . .

(*and do I need to put my quasi-legal disclaimer on here again that I'm not "all in the tank for the LC"? )
So you think this forum is a "magnet" for airing grievances about something and a place for people to complain?

This forum is a safe place for wounded believers to come and say what they need to say. We try to help them...not pass judgment on them for being "negative". Suffering abuse IS negative.

Why are you here?

Nell

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Old 11-20-2020, 03:55 PM   #40
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Q. What was the breaking point of you LC kids. It breaks my heart to see y'all still inflicted after all these years. I know LC parents are super strict with kids in regards to socializing and activities like sports or entertainment. But what exactly would you LC kids say is the biggest source of pain and torment for LC kids growing up. Is it the constant berating of how "wOrLdLy" things are how sinful every little thing is? Or perhaps witness doctrine being ingrained into your mind? What exactly is the source of all this pain from LC kids? It truly breaks my heart and only share if you want to. Im just appalled of how terrible some of you are still feeling from the LC after all these years. What in the heck was the factor that led to all this misery?
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Old 11-20-2020, 05:23 PM   #41
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Q. What was the breaking point of you LC kids. It breaks my heart to see y'all still inflicted after all these years. I know LC parents are super strict with kids in regards to socializing and activities like sports or entertainment. But what exactly would you LC kids say is the biggest source of pain and torment for LC kids growing up. Is it the constant berating of how "wOrLdLy" things are how sinful every little thing is? Or perhaps witness doctrine being ingrained into your mind? What exactly is the source of all this pain from LC kids? It truly breaks my heart and only share if you want to. Im just appalled of how terrible some of you are still feeling from the LC after all these years. What in the heck was the factor that led to all this misery?
I'm happy to answer this, thanks for asking! I think it's the powerlessness, and then everything stems from that. As minors we are under the control of our parents, financially and emotionally. Our parents require us to follow the LC doctrine, so the doctrine dictates our lives. The strict rules our parents enforce, both through punishments and shaming, are enforced and encouraged by all adults in our lives, because all adults our parents allow around us are LC people. The Recovery isn't well known, so complaining to people outside of it isn't very productive. At the same time, the brainwashing takes the power to dissent and think critically away from us. There is no escape, we learn. We are rebellious and wanting to leave is our natural sinful nature coming out. This is drilled into us. Sometimes it takes all the way through college and even grad school to experience the outside world enough to realize something is wrong. Then it takes therapy to overcome the brainwashing. Then you realize you're isolated from the world around you. Leaving the church leaves you isolated, because the church isolated you for so long. You have no friends. If your family is in the church, you don't have them. If they aren't, you don't have them either because they won't believe their own family members did this to you. And you don't have a relationship with them anyway because your parents kept you away from them, emotionally if not physically.
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Old 11-21-2020, 06:23 AM   #42
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the brainwashing takes the power to dissent and think critically away from us. There is no escape, we learn. We are rebellious and wanting to leave is our natural sinful nature coming out. This is drilled into us. Sometimes it takes all the way through college and even grad school to experience the outside world enough to realize something is wrong. Then it takes therapy to overcome the brainwashing...
I've used this forum as a kind of therapy. Also I read a lot of books. Also, I learned at my job that people like me and appreciate me. And I took paid therapy several times, because I needed to vent, privately, and have someone tell me that venting was okay, not evil or sinful or rebellious.

The insidious nature of the Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network (WLMCPGN) is that you never know it got you. The brainwashing is so deep and self-reinforcing that you never go, "Hey, I'm brainwashed. I can't even think for myself." No, the program hides itself.

Let me give an example. Years after leaving the LC, I was in a conference with a well-known Christian speaker, and they were really hitting all the notes. The audience was just frozen with amazement. Incredible insight! Everyone was visibly moved by the message. Not me. I sat there, stoically. "It's not God's economy". That was it. I didn't care.

I had a reflexive, anti-thought program, still functioning in me, years after physically leaving the WLMCPGN. I couldn't read the Bible without an invisible "responsible one" leaning over my shoulder and whispering in my ear, what was good, and why, and what should be ignored or waved away as irrelevant.

And I came in as a church-going college student, who got recruited into the WLMCPGN because ''there is something more". I hadn't been prepped in Christianity for the zeal and the non-thought and the sloganeering. I never knew what hit me, and it took years afterward to begin to appreciate how much it had hit me.

Now, imagine you grew up in that, were never allowed other sources of information, that thinking was rebellious, that questioning was from God's enemy, that "Hear no evil, see no evil" was how to stay in the glorious church life, even when evil was obvious to all, and if you left you were a dropout and a failure and God was going to put you in a dark place. When I left, I had something to fall back on, imperfect as it was. The LC kids have no such resources, and have been drilled that any such resources are enemy territory.

Imagine, trying to create your humanity after that, when you were never given a chance at humanity in the first place. I daresay we should be generous with such ones. Give them space to find themselves. Wherever they are, that's where they are. Let them be there, today, it's okay.
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Old 11-21-2020, 11:29 AM   #43
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So you think this forum is a "magnet" for airing grievances about something and a place for people to complain?

This forum is a safe place for wounded believers to come and say what they need to say. We try to help them...not pass judgment on them for being "negative". Suffering abuse IS negative.

Why are you here?

Nell
All I'm trying to say is that by nature, when negative things are aired, it attracts more of the same kind of thing, right? That's all I'm attempting to convey. It certainly wasn't intended as judging anyone sharing negative things and experiences from the LC . . . it was just an observation. So no, this forum is not just merely a magnet for negative things & grievances, but rather it's a characteristic of something like this. Make sense? (and I knew when I shared this observation that some might take it in an unintended way - forgive my ineffective communication please)

So why am I here? I wonder a little about the tone of this inquiry . . . however, choosing to believe you meant it in the most innocent way, here's my answer.

The reason I come on this forum is threefold I think:
1) I hope to share things that may be helpful to others in their walk with Jesus. This includes sharing things I've seen which may be different than what we were taught in the LC, or support teachings I think were pretty good from the LC.
2) To get help and light myself through various exchanges here
3) It's something (hopefully productive) to do with my spare time & helps keep me from excess boredom

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So you think that this forum was merely "set up to air grievances about something"? Would you care to restate that?
I address this above - I did not use the word "merely." Rather I said "this forum is something of a magnet for LC related grievances." As explained above . . . not "merely" but a characteristic by virtue of the nature of this forum.

Hope that clears this little sidebar up, now back to the program at hand!
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Old 11-21-2020, 01:28 PM   #44
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I've used this forum as a kind of therapy. Also I read a lot of books. Also, I learned at my job that people like me and appreciate me. And I took paid therapy several times, because I needed to vent, privately, and have someone tell me that venting was okay, not evil or sinful or rebellious.

The insidious nature of the Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network (WLMCPGN) is that you never know it got you. The brainwashing is so deep and self-reinforcing that you never go, "Hey, I'm brainwashed. I can't even think for myself." No, the program hides itself.

Let me give an example. Years after leaving the LC, I was in a conference with a well-known Christian speaker, and they were really hitting all the notes. The audience was just frozen with amazement. Incredible insight! Everyone was visibly moved by the message. Not me. I sat there, stoically. "It's not God's economy". That was it. I didn't care.

I had a reflexive, anti-thought program, still functioning in me, years after physically leaving the WLMCPGN. I couldn't read the Bible without an invisible "responsible one" leaning over my shoulder and whispering in my ear, what was good, and why, and what should be ignored or waved away as irrelevant.

And I came in as a church-going college student, who got recruited into the WLMCPGN because ''there is something more". I hadn't been prepped in Christianity for the zeal and the non-thought and the sloganeering. I never knew what hit me, and it took years afterward to begin to appreciate how much it had hit me.

Now, imagine you grew up in that, were never allowed other sources of information, that thinking was rebellious, that questioning was from God's enemy, that "Hear no evil, see no evil" was how to stay in the glorious church life, even when evil was obvious to all, and if you left you were a dropout and a failure and God was going to put you in a dark place. When I left, I had something to fall back on, imperfect as it was. The LC kids have no such resources, and have been drilled that any such resources are enemy territory.

Imagine, trying to create your humanity after that, when you were never given a chance at humanity in the first place. I daresay we should be generous with such ones. Give them space to find themselves. Wherever they are, that's where they are. Let them be there, today, it's okay.

This is a really good description, probably better put than the answer I attempted! Thanks, aron.
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Old 11-21-2020, 01:33 PM   #45
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Sons to Glory, I think the sidebar summary is that:
1) You assert this forum is a magnet for negative LC experiences.
2) Most people on here, including the mod, seem to disagree, and assert that this forum for discussion about the LCs, and it just so happens that most ex-LC members have negative experiences.
So in conclusion, maybe drop the negative experience magnet assertion?



P.S. I don't want to speak for Nell, but I think they were asking why you're here, because the forum isn't supposed to pass judgment on the posting of negative experiences, and yet in a way, by trying to assert some sort of magnet effect, you were passing judgment. Anyway, that's my takeaway.
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Old 11-21-2020, 03:18 PM   #46
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Sons to Glory, I think the sidebar summary is that:
1) You assert this forum is a magnet for negative LC experiences.
2) Most people on here, including the mod, seem to disagree, and assert that this forum for discussion about the LCs, and it just so happens that most ex-LC members have negative experiences.
So in conclusion, maybe drop the negative experience magnet assertion?

P.S. I don't want to speak for Nell, but I think they were asking why you're here, because the forum isn't supposed to pass judgment on the posting of negative experiences, and yet in a way, by trying to assert some sort of magnet effect, you were passing judgment. Anyway, that's my takeaway.
You are correct. That, and I just stated why we are here...here we try to help wounded believers. We are here for this...why are you here?

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Old 11-21-2020, 04:22 PM   #47
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You are correct. That, and I just stated why we are here...here we try to help wounded believers. We are here for this...why are you here?

Nell
I believe I didn't communicate well and the basics of what I was attempting to convey was fairly misunderstood . . . not that important.

We move on. Sorry.
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Old 11-21-2020, 11:01 PM   #48
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Sure. You'll find plenty like that here!

My LC experience wasn't that bad, and I know the Lord lead me there in 74. But I also praise Him he lead me out in the late 1980s. (plus the localities I was in, at least in in Ohio in the 80s, didn't revolve as closely around Anaheim back then) And I don't think my kids had too much in the way of negative experiences there . . . at least the one son I've asked so far didn't seem to think so.
I daresay that the reason the Lord lead you out in the 1980s (in other words, what He was saving you from experiencing) is probably the very reason the church kids who were born then and/or grew up then need to come here to get help and feel heard and find out their wounds are legitimate and deep. The ones who grew up in that era and afterward experienced what you were probably saved from going through. It is worth praising Him that He lead you out at that time!
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:32 AM   #49
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The Local Churches definitely are a personality cult- who obsess and idolize the man named- Witness Lee.

Hilarious example- I remember viewing a thread on here and someone leaked a video (2018 blending conference church of irvine) on a popular figure named minrou chen. He said he had felt the spirit of witness lee inside of himself and that witness lee was by his side watching over him.................................. I expected him to correct himself and somehow acknowledge to some extent that, the statement he just said was ridiculous and his tongue slipped. But no, he stuck by that statement and try soften it by saying he was not boastful in that statement and that he just humbly and gracefully believes that the spirit of witness lee is within him and intertwined within himself. I expected everyone to realize that this was teh breaking point of Witness lee ass kissing- but not they continue to shout Amen as they usually do. Just mindless people who are to myopic to see the madness of this man or too scared to act differently cause of how popular witness lee is. This is just one sample of the many acts of looney you will see in the LC, if you stick long enough and they trust you enough to expose themselves.

....

- Btw somebody link that video of Minrou with a time stamp of his heresy.
Here's the link to the video of Minoru: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwSeww7kCpg
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:21 AM   #50
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I believe I didn't communicate well and the basics of what I was attempting to convey was fairly misunderstood . . . not that important.

We move on. Sorry.
Here we go again. Forum cancal culture on full display. Others ganging up on you to force you into submission and rally the troops to humiliate you? Seriously? There was nothing in your comments that should be apologized for. And now you are scrutinized for WHY you are here?

Hello folks, SonsToGlory doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He is one of the kindest brothers around. He loves the Lord and His body. He is only here to help.

On the contrary, he often gets pushback because he is not harsh enough on this forum towards the LC system. Imagine that. Please pass the irony.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:16 AM   #51
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Hey listen, I agree with brother Ohio, sons of glory is a sweet man and he is not trying to start any problems- pls be a bit soft on a man so sweet.

As for the populace of this website- most are here to vent and express their negativity of the LC or figure out more about them. There are nice things about the LC such that drew people in initially but it is overshadowed by all the negative things. For long time LC members, it may be hard to see the thrusting negativity towards something you loved so long, especially if the reason you left didn't really had much to do with personal/direct suffering but rather the system you once knew did not align with your beliefs at the time of departure. Everyone has a level of dislike for the LC depending on their personal experience, and we have to respect and acknowledge the different levels of disagreement and repugnance one has for the LC on this forum.

The LC has some scarring effects on people that will cause a pain in their soul for the remainder of their life to some extent. Others will not have personally developed such a pain and or disdain and may only have a mild/ and or reparable experience. We all come from different experiences and it is best if we respect and acknowledge that and enter a dialogue with the intent of: understanding, expressing, and respecting one another. If an individual does not desire to enter discussion with the intent described above, then yes things will get messy and personal- such as half the arguments with the user named evangelical.

But for sonsofglory- pls respect this brother. He is one of the most sweetest people I have seen on this thread. He might not be full throttle on the LC hate wagon but that does not mean we have to step on his back because of it. But feel free to disagree and have a healthy discussion on how you believe the LC is in your experience and perception.

As for users like Evangelical- well half the time she is asking for it to be honest, heck even more than half the time.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:32 AM   #52
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Guys, many people are responding negatively to Sons of Glory because although he may "be nice" or "love God", he wasn't (although I think he gracefully bowed out in his last comment) accepting that all of these negative experiences are valid and are not an artifact of some magnetic field attracting negating and ONLY negative experiences. Which is harmful to other people on this forum! He himself, and others on this forum, are proof that some people do think there is good in the LC. Personally, I think that all the bad outweighs the good, and just because the majority seem to think that as well doesn't mean that we're an echo chamber or whatever. "Cancel culture" in this case is nonsense. Stop trying to invalidate people who are disagreeing. It isn't cancel culture when the majority of people on a public forum think in a certain way. We get it, Sons to Glory thinks this is a magnet for negative experiences. Most of us disagree with him, and he stopped his assertions, and that's that. And please don't use someone "loving God" or whatever as an excuse for them to say whatever they want and not be disagreed with. There are plenty of people who "care for the Body" and all that stuff, that aren't actually that helpful when it comes down to interacting with other people. Many of them are still in the LC; some aren't. I'm not saying Sons to Glory is not a nice person, nor am I trying to invalidate his beliefs, nor is anyone else saying either of those things. They're just trying to argue that this forum is NOT some sort of distorted magnet for negative experiences.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:35 AM   #53
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he often gets pushback because he is not harsh enough on this forum towards the LC system. Imagine that. Please pass the irony.
That is false in this thread. He is getting push-back because he is trying to dissuade others from being harsh towards the LCs. Others are allowed to be as negative as they would like towards the LCs, just as he is allowed to be as positive as he would like. Then, discussion ensues.
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Old 11-22-2020, 08:14 AM   #54
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I daresay that the reason the Lord lead you out in the 1980s (in other words, what He was saving you from experiencing) is probably the very reason the church kids who were born then and/or grew up then need to come here to get help and feel heard and find out their wounds are legitimate and deep. The ones who grew up in that era and afterward experienced what you were probably saved from going through. It is worth praising Him that He lead you out at that time!
Yes, I absolutely do praise Him for leading me and my family out at that time! As I alluded to, we were also blessed to be in southern Ohio churches, where things were perhaps not as intense as in other places in the LC. And He also got us out before the big blow-up in Columbus.

A good deal of what I know regarding the negative things of the LC, I learned from others on here. Again, I in no way want to diminish their experiences and hurt, and stand with them in the Lord for their healing!

BTW: For those who don't know of my stance very well - I would not steer anyone who was looking for healthy, Christ centered fellowship, to the LC - way too much focus on WL (among other things).
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Old 11-22-2020, 08:28 AM   #55
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Again, I in no way want to diminish their experiences and hurt, and stand with them in the Lord for their healing!
Just out of curiosity (and in no way trying to diminish your own experiences), what about those who are agnostic, or atheist, or who believe differently? Personally, I do not stand in the Lord. I'm not sure if God is real, or cares, and I put far more trust in myself and my therapist for healing. Do you still stand with me?
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Old 11-22-2020, 08:51 AM   #56
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Just out of curiosity (and in no way trying to diminish your own experiences), what about those who are agnostic, or atheist, or who believe differently? Personally, I do not stand in the Lord. I'm not sure if God is real, or cares, and I put far more trust in myself and my therapist for healing. Do you still stand with me?
I don't care what a believer calls themself - I stand with who they really are in Christ, in the new creation. All this other stuff will get sorted out by Him - Christ in us is our one hope of glory! The Seed is planted.

My new theme these days is, "Praise the Lord - He's got this!" So regardless of what our surroundings and environment are, and the problems that face us from without and within, He loves us and He is fully able! Apart from that I don't know all that much, except take problem to Jesus.

So tell us more about yourself and what needs our prayer . . .
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:06 AM   #57
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I don't care what a believer calls themself - I stand with who they really are in Christ, in the new creation. All this other stuff will get sorted out by Him - Christ in us is our one hope of glory! The Seed is planted.

My new theme these days is, "Praise the Lord - He's got this!" So regardless of what our surroundings and environment are, and the problems that face us from without and within, He loves us and He is fully able! Apart from that I don't know all that much, except take problem to Jesus.

So tell us more about yourself and what needs our prayer . . .
I'm not a believer. God has no love or capability for me or my situation, if he is even real. Prayer does nothing in my experience, so what I need isn't prayer. I need you to accept that not everyone is a believer and that's okay.
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:22 AM   #58
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Here we go again. Forum cancel culture on full display. Others ganging up on you to force you into submission and rally the troops to humiliate you? Seriously? There was nothing in your comments that should be apologized for. And now you are scrutinized for WHY you are here?
And here you go again with the "cancel culture" nonsense. The only one who was attempting to "cancel" was Sons to Glory! He put his foot in his mouth (it happens to the best of us!) and he got called on his insensitivity, and in my view he stuck his foot further in his mouth in replies #34 and #43. As far as Nell's question to StG!, well he should be counting his blessings that she only let loose with one barrel. That's the good news. The bad news is that she's still got one barrel left.

Before we just "move on", I think this should be a lesson for all of us to really think hard before we hit that "Post Reply" button on the top left. If you have any doubts about how something your about to post will be taken, maybe it's best that you edit yourself first before replying, or maybe just don't post that particular post at all.
-
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:26 AM   #59
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And here you go again with the "cancel culture" nonsense. The only one who was attempting to "cancel" was Sons to Glory! He put his foot in his mouth (it happens to the best of us!) and he got called on his insensitivity, and in my view he stuck his foot further in his mouth in replies #34 and #43. As far as Nell's question to StG!, well he should be counting his blessings that she only let loose with one barrel. That's the good news. The bad news is that she's still got one barrel left.

Before we just "move on", I think this should be a lesson for all of us to really think hard before we hit that "Post Reply" button on the top left. If you have any doubts about how something your about to post will be taken, maybe it's best that you edit yourself first before replying, or maybe just don't post that particular post at all.
-
And that's what cancel culture is. Like a Twitter mob going after a post that differs, with the goal of shaming and silencing into submission. If you don't like STG's comments then just ignore him. Is that too hard? Where was STG being rude? I never saw it. Rather he is being canceled for his "insensitivity." Seriously? Here is the comment that "triggered" the backlash here:
Quote:
Yes . . . sorry for your experience. Maybe we should say "damaging cult" instead of "dangerous cult." Or maybe have a one to ten point scale for this. (1 might be "mildly milquetoast cult" to 10 "a Jonestownesque cult")
I thought this actually added much to the discussion. It's very informative to add some defining characteristics to the label "cult," is it not? If every Christian church I have ever encountered has been at some point labeled a "cult," (including Acts 29) then the label obviously is meaningless. Basically then a "cult" is just a sect (Acts 24.5) and like the once derogatory word "Christian." (Acts 11.26)

Sorry, UntoHim but you provoked the conflict here. Others just followed. Usually your posts calm things down. You just didn't try to encourage or help exChurchKid, but you had six-guns-a-blazing for STG. And not the first time. Without your posts, every thing prolly would have been fine.
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:29 AM   #60
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Here we go again. Forum cancal culture on full display. Others ganging up on you to force you into submission and rally the troops to humiliate you? Seriously? There was nothing in your comments that should be apologized for. And now you are scrutinized for WHY you are here?
We're having a conversation. We get to do that. We also know about that gang mentality, being "forced into submission", and being humiliated by someone we were taught was trustworthy. We recognize this familiar ring as the MO that so many lived under in the Local Church of Witness Lee. There's some irony for you.

Playing the "negative" card in this crowd is at best, shortsighted.

I don't need an apology either...not even from the "tone police." Having said that, what's wrong with having a "tone"?

And BTW, what's wrong with a little scrutiny? Something we were not allowed in that other place. It was actually a rhetorical question, but nonetheless, it's always helpful to ask yourself (or be asked of another) what am I doing? Why am I here?

Quote:
Hello folks, SonsToGlory doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He is one of the kindest brothers around. He loves the Lord and His body. He is only here to help.
Our bones aren't mean either. We're kind. We love the Lord and His body. We are only here to help. We're even sweet. But we do have a limit...as do you.

Well, actually, some of us are agnostic now, so it's hard to find a place where we fit in.

Quote:
On the contrary, he often gets pushback because he is not harsh enough on this forum towards the LC system. Imagine that. Please pass the irony.
This is a public forum. Pushback is allowed. "Because he is not harsh enough" is your perception. This is you assigning motive to others...which may or may not be accurate. Even if some feel "he's not harsh enough", so be it. We get to feel what we feel. We get to speak...which was something we were not allowed to do in "God's Best."

There's plenty of irony going around.

GOOD IN THE LOCAL CHURCH?
Why don't we discuss the source of "good". Whatever was "good" in the Local Church, had nothing to do with the Local Church. It had nothing to do with Witness Lee...nothing to do with "the ministry".

"Good" only exists in the life and nature of God Himself. God is good. He is full of mercy. God is love. God is light.

I found God in a way, I didn't know existed. At the time, I was attending meetings in a place "not Baptist". When I left that "not Baptist" place, I discovered that God is bigger than that other place. He's bigger than Baptist, but that's where I got my start. It was all about Him. When I left, I said to Him "God, please don't let go of me." He didn't. He never will. I know this.

My prayer for all is that we learn to give credit where it's due. Like this:

How Big Is God

Though man may strive to go beyond the reach of space
To crawl beyond the distant shim'ring stars
This world's a room so small within my Master's house
The open sky's a portion of His yard

How big is God? How big and wide His vast domain
To try and tell, these lips can only start
He's big enough to rule His mighty universe
Yet small enough to live within my heart

As winter's chill may cause the tiny seed to fall
To lie asleep till waked by summer's rain
The heart grown cold will warm and throb with life anew
The Master's touch will bring the glow again


I love it...the Master's touch--
Nell
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:42 AM   #61
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Ohio, are you being deliberately difficult? The part of StG that triggered the backlash was his aside asserting this forum is a negative experience magnet. NOT what you quoted. It's hard to believe you truly think your quote is what started it. I've posted 2 threads so far, and you have been less than helpful in both. UntoHim and Nell on the other hand, have been understanding and helpful to me.
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:51 AM   #62
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Ohio, are you being deliberately difficult?
I'm trying to be fair, and stand up for someone being mischaracterized.
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:55 AM   #63
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How Big Is God
Ray Price

Though man may strive to go beyond the reach of space
To crawl beyond the distant shim'ring stars
This world's a room so small within my Master's house
The open sky's a portion of His yard

How big is God? How big and wide His vast domain
To try and tell, these lips can only start
He's big enough to rule His mighty universe
Yet small enough to live within my heart

As winter's chill may cause the tiny seed to fall
To lie asleep till waked by summer's rain
The heart grown cold will warm and throb with life anew
The Master's touch will bring the glow again


I love it...the Master's touch--
Nell
Great poem. I love it too: the Master's touch!
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Old 11-22-2020, 01:46 PM   #64
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I'm not a believer. God has no love or capability for me or my situation, if he is even real. Prayer does nothing in my experience, so what I need isn't prayer. I need you to accept that not everyone is a believer and that's okay.
Well thanks for coming on here! God does love you - that's the message of the whole bible. And He is infinitely capable, however, He does His best not to cross your free will. And I could tell you amazing things that prayer has done - some answers that were instantaneous and undeniable. So that's my testimony. With that, we now know a little better how to pray for you.

I have to ask - was there no time when you experienced something of the presence of the Lord? While the LC certainly has some big issues, I do believe most there are regenerated Christians with Christ living in them. So at some point you probably heard a good gospel message about Christ loving you so much He came to die for you . . . is that accurate or not? Of course, it's still up to you (that free will thing) whether you accept His free gift or not.
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Old 11-22-2020, 01:56 PM   #65
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Concerning the "magnet" thing, all I was attempting to convey was that complaints and negative speakings typically begets more of the same. I'll agree with Nell and UntoHim (et. al.) that this forum is a place to help hurting ones - this is the stated intention and I do believe it. The "magnet" thing was just a objective observation that this then attracts that sort of thing - it's the nature or characteristic of this forum.

For instance, I once started a thread on some good things to come out of the Recovery (anyone remember that 2018 thread? SEE HERE). It was really hard for folks to list anything positive there, and not all that many forum members posted on the thread. Why was that? There could be at least two explanations I can think of: 1) There was little to nothing good that ever came out of the LC; 2) This forum attracts people who have had particularly bad experiences with the LC. (or perhaps a combination of both) Therefore, there is a predominance of negative things concerning the LC conveyed on here, that is, it is just the tide of thinking here. Okay, that's fine, we're here to help hurting ones, and negative things need to be aired. But the point is things of a certain nature tend to attract things of the same nature - that's all I was (perhaps ineffectively) attempting to point out.

Again, hoping to clarify, I never said the word "merely" as in UntoHim's message quoted below. It was his word, and changed the meaning of what I was saying.
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So you think that this forum was merely "set up to air grievances about something"? Would you care to restate that?
What I actually said was this:
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There's also been several studies done about the proportion of people that complain verses those that have had a good experience, and the ratio of people who will talk about bad experiences is much, much higher than those who've had voice good experiences. In other words, this forum is something of a magnet for LC related grievances.*

With that said, I do, sincerely, appreciate the openness of this forum! Thanks for your service . . .
I'm not sure why anyone here would have a problem with that - it's an objective observation of the characteristic of this forum. And besides, don't we want to be a "magnet" so hurting ones will come on here to get help?
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Old 11-22-2020, 03:28 PM   #66
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don't we want to be a "magnet" so hurting ones will come on here to get help?
I'm a magnet . . . . in reverse polarity. Lighten up.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:18 PM   #67
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Well thanks for coming on here! God does love you - that's the message of the whole bible. And He is infinitely capable, however, He does His best not to cross your free will. And I could tell you amazing things that prayer has done - some answers that were instantaneous and undeniable. So that's my testimony. With that, we now know a little better how to pray for you.

I have to ask - was there no time when you experienced something of the presence of the Lord? While the LC certainly has some big issues, I do believe most there are regenerated Christians with Christ living in them. So at some point you probably heard a good gospel message about Christ loving you so much He came to die for you . . . is that accurate or not? Of course, it's still up to you (that free will thing) whether you accept His free gift or not.
I am not a believer. I think what you are saying is false. You are free to have it be true to you, and I will not force my agnosticism on you, but to me it is false. Take your religiousness elsewhere and drop it. By forcing it on me, you are hurting the very type of person you claim you want to help. I have received no free gift and how dare you presume I have? If I am pushed much farther by the religion in portions of this forum, I will not be so nice about my agnosticism any longer.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:21 PM   #68
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I'm a magnet . . . . in reverse polarity. Lighten up.
Lol. I hate the hypocrisy if StG rignt now. Claiming he just wants to help hurting ones and yet hurting them with his narrow mindedness and religious rhetoric.
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Old 11-22-2020, 05:55 PM   #69
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ExChurchKid- He really does want to help people, he is a genuine sweet man. I know you are not in the mood at the moment to accept Christianity at your life due to your past experience but he is trying to help you. Whether or not you deem is help useful- depends on you. It is his way in an attempt to help, he isn't saying he has the best method available in order to rectify your issues in life. He is simply doing the best he can in his own perception- which is preaching about Christ.

If his attempt in helping you is not working, well sorry I guess but he tried. Trapped I think can really help you in this regard. If you truly decide to follow an agnostic path- then you have to look at what the world has to offer you in terms of satisfaction. These satisfactions can be in short burst and unfulfilling after there very brief euphoria or perhaps a longer term delight that satisfies your soul until you pass. But regardless, find something to help you ease your pain that you have gotten.

If you ever for whatever reason decide to even fathom reading the bible again and attempt to even come back to Christianity. Read the Psalms, honestly just read the Psalms and see just how much the songs of previous men have felt in the life of pursuing God. Trust me, there is definitely material in there that should synchronize with you one way or another. Just read the sweet Psalms and enjoy the songs of joy, despair, wrath, rage, vindication, praise, and wisdom. Start off with the Psalms and get a taste of something you may or may not want more of.

- The choice is yours ExChurchMember, make the decision at your discretion.
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Old 11-22-2020, 05:56 PM   #70
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I am not a believer. I think what you are saying is false. You are free to have it be true to you, and I will not force my agnosticism on you, but to me it is false. Take your religiousness elsewhere and drop it. By forcing it on me, you are hurting the very type of person you claim you want to help. I have received no free gift and how dare you presume I have? If I am pushed much farther by the religion in portions of this forum, I will not be so nice about my agnosticism any longer.
Under normal times, this vitriol would get you banned. STG never "forced" anything on you. He was completely kind towards you. You are completely free to ignore any comments about the love of God towards you by him or me or any other poster. But that does not give you a license to disrespect those whom you dislike or disagree with.

Agnosticism means that you don't know anything about God or care too. That is your prerogative. But it also seems like you don't know anything about STG either. Keep acting this way and you will lose your supporters too.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:16 PM   #71
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@Mods/Admins:If this thread does not improve in terms of its original purpose or productive dialogue and further digress into personal insults- lock it temporarily until emotions drive down a bit. I don't mind heated discussions as long as it does not get too personal in any way(sneak disses here and there is a little playful in my eyes at least).
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:25 PM   #72
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Holy smokes everyone.

ExChurchKid has been pretty clear about where she is right now related to God. Let her be there.

If she wants to ask questions about God, she can do so, just like I did numerous times when I came on the forum. If she wants to express her frustrations about God, let her do so. I did that plenty of times on the forum and to my recollection got understanding in return. If she doesn't want to be preached at, or hear about God in a certain way, it's pretty easy to honor that request. Learn a person first.

We have no idea what she's been through, do we? To use an extreme example, a young kid molested by a pedophile priest who did evil things to that kid while praying at the same time (yes, that happens) means that kid absolutely will not want to hear about God. I think we can all understand why in that scenario. And that kid would receive a lot more sensitivity from us because of it.

So there's a spectrum of what people go through in life, and that spectrum still involves sensitivity from us even if it's not as extreme as the example I gave.

If I grew up knowing that God was someone who condemned me, blamed me, wanted to crush me, took pleasure in ripping things I enjoyed out of my hands.....then anyone trying to talk up God to me would get some fangs and claws from me in return, because I would be sick of having someone who has always been represented as out to get me shoved in my face. I can say that because I've been precisely there. Enjoyment of Christ, pressuring to feel differently, threats about choices and discretion? Come on people. You wouldn't do that to someone you had had all of 15 minutes of conversation with in real life.....why do that here?

For those who believe in God, our job is to welcome, walk alongside, listen, hear, mirror, understand, empathize, and allow them to have a voice maybe for the first time ever. No new members are going to trust anyone here to have a real conversation about where they are at with God if we don't start with that.

ExChurchKid, and many, many church kids, are not the enemy. They are the wounded and the collateral damage from a sick system that's been allowed to roll on crushing people for far too long.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:47 PM   #73
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Lol. I hate the hypocrisy if StG rignt now. Claiming he just wants to help hurting ones and yet hurting them with his narrow mindedness and religious rhetoric.
StG can't help it. He's obligated to God and the Bible. And he fails to realize that you grew up with the help he's offering.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:53 PM   #74
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Holy smokes everyone. ExChurchKid has been pretty clear about where she is right now related to God. Let her be there.
Thanks for these realistic words.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:02 PM   #75
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The LC method of lifestyle and interpretation is not absolute, universal, and a lot of times not scriptural. Your "cHrIsTiAn" upbringing was a bad experience because it revolved around the doctrine and teachings of one erroneous and faulty man.

But as you said you have no intention of looking towards religion, so I guess exlcmember- find something that can patch the hole in your heart. Whether that is another group of people who give you joy, a hobby/passion, or some way of life that fulfills your everyday needs.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:20 PM   #76
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Well said, Trapped.

I would add a word to all...man up. Suck it up. Don't call 911!!! Good grief!!

This discussion is not about you and your sweet little "wouldn't hurt a fly" disposition. You want to help? Listen. When someone tells you you're not helping, believe them. Stop preaching. Stop trying to explain your "negative magnet" rhetoric. You can do this.

I think we could all learn something from this discussion. Stop trying to fix ExCK.

ExCK, I don't know that StG is speaking from hypocrisy. I think "tone deaf" might be more accurate. What do you think?

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Old 11-22-2020, 07:30 PM   #77
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Thank you, Trapped. I really appreciate your insight.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:32 PM   #78
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so I guess exlcmember- find something that can patch the hole in your heart.
Did I miss something? Where did XCK say he/she had a hole in his/her heart?
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:33 PM   #79
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Nell, I could accept tone deaf as a better description than hypocritical. In the LC I was constantly told I was being helped, only to be hurt or shamed because I didn't feel helped. I am uncomfortable about what Ohio said about me being vitriolic and being banned. I feel that sometimes people are allowed to say very patronizing things because they say it in the garb of religion, but when I stand up for myself in plain words, I am the enemy. That is how it was in the Recovery.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:34 PM   #80
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Did I miss something? Where did XCK say she had a hole in her heart?

THANK YOU!
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Old 11-22-2020, 08:39 PM   #81
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Nell, I could accept tone deaf as a better description than hypocritical.
* In the LC I was constantly told I was being helped, only to be hurt or shamed because I didn't feel helped.
* I am uncomfortable about what Ohio said about me being vitriolic and being banned.
* I feel that sometimes people are allowed to say very patronizing things because they say it in the garb of religion, but when I stand up for myself in plain words, I am the enemy.
* That is how it was in the Recovery.
ExCK,

Excellent points and well said. No one should ever talk like that to another person...make you feel like you are the enemy for telling the truth. I've experienced some of that. It really eats away at you.

I'm thinking you have a gift ... Honesty. The gift of telling the truth.

Ohio, for the most part, is a good guy, but I didn't like what he said to you either. But you told us all how he made you feel in just a few plain words. Keep standing up for yourself.

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Old 11-22-2020, 09:53 PM   #82
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Did I miss something? Where did XCK say she had a hole in her heart?

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THANK YOU!
Truth is that you strike me as someone that grew up in it, got out of it, gone thru some turmoil, and are now a whole person. Not a hole person.
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Old 11-23-2020, 08:27 AM   #83
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Thank you, Nell, that means a lot.
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Old 11-23-2020, 08:27 AM   #84
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Aw, thanks, awareness
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Old 11-23-2020, 09:49 AM   #85
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Well said, Trapped.

I would add a word to all...man up. Suck it up. Don't call 911!!! Good grief!!

This discussion is not about you and your sweet little "wouldn't hurt a fly" disposition. You want to help? Listen. When someone tells you you're not helping, believe them. Stop preaching. Stop trying to explain your "negative magnet" rhetoric. You can do this.

I think we could all learn something from this discussion. Stop trying to fix ExCK.

ExCK, I don't know that StG is speaking from hypocrisy. I think "tone deaf" might be more accurate. What do you think?

Nell
I'm sorry you and I don't seem to communicate effectively with one another . . . so I will stop trying, at least on this thread. It appears to be one of those frustrating situations where I only seem to make the misunderstanding worse.

But irregardless, Praise the Lord - He's got this too! Once again, we hafta just give it to Him and take a rest.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:01 AM   #86
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I'm sorry you and I don't seem to communicate effectively with one another . . . so I will stop trying, at least on this thread. It appears to be one of those frustrating situations where I only seem to make the misunderstanding worse.

But irregardless, Praise the Lord - He's got this too! Once again, we hafta just give it to Him and take a rest.

Dude. Your tone-deafness is showing again. Please just leave it be.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:10 AM   #87
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I'm sorry you and I don't seem to communicate effectively with one another . . . so I will stop trying, at least on this thread. It appears to be one of those frustrating situations where I only seem to make the misunderstanding worse.

But irregardless, Praise the Lord - He's got this too! Once again, we hafta just give it to Him and take a rest.
"Giving it to him" is just letting people alone about him, and letting them be who they are.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:41 AM   #88
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Yes - what ExChurchKid & awareness said. I will cease & desist. No more. Not another word. I truly mean it this time . . . truly. That's it. Finite. Hecho ahora.

To reiterate, I'm starting to begin to commence to give it a rest.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:44 AM   #89
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Dude. Your tone-deafness is showing again. Please just leave it be.
Have you ordained yourself as the forum speech-Nazi?

STG was gracefully backing out of the discussion but you still took a parting shot.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:55 AM   #90
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Have you ordained yourself as the forum speech-Nazi?

STG was gracefully backing out of the discussion but you still took a parting shot.

Congratulations Ohio! I'm done. You hurt me to the point of wanting to leave this forum. Isn't that what you wanted? I'm sure that makes you feel so powerful and Christ-like. Have fun injuring future ex-LC-raised-kids. Jesus will be so proud.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:59 AM   #91
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This thread got even messier, locking it is my recommendation.

If you need help on this forum Exchurchkid, I think trapped is your best bet.
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Old 11-23-2020, 12:39 PM   #92
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I am sorry for my part in this. I went back and looked and things went along pretty well until I made a comment regarding the nature of this forum in post #28 (and a follow-up in #34). Until then, there was a decent discussion, at least I think so.

Please forgive me for my part in the derailment of this thread.

And since the original poster seems to take umbrage with my comments, I will sideline myself.
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Old 11-23-2020, 02:22 PM   #93
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I feel bad for phrasing my outburst the way I did, I'll try to stick around in this forum a little longer, and I very much appreciate StG's message, but I am still very hurt by Ohio. I should have instead responded that what he said was uncalled for. But he had previously replied unpleasantly to me (as Nell agrees in her comment), and shot a barb at me for using Nell's phrasing (that StG was being tone-deaf). Feel free to lock the thread; I think any discussion that was going to happen about the original question of the libel suit has already happened. But I would just like to say that I tried to stay respectful as long as possible, and I feel unwelcome! Nell invited me to the women-only chat, so I'll check things out there, but I should be able to stay on the main forum and not feel that I'll be pushed to the limits of my emotional capacity to refrain from lashing out. I'll link to a thread I started where I expressed my discontent, if any are interested:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=6736
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Old 11-23-2020, 02:24 PM   #94
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This thread got even messier, locking it is my recommendation.

If you need help on this forum Exchurchkid, I think trapped is your best bet.

You have repeatedly stated that I have a hole in my heart and that I need help. Please stop insinuating that I need help. I am asking you respectfully. I have not asked for help in this thread, only for discussion regarding the libel suit. I am conversing with Trapped about certain things, and I am happy with how that is going.
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Old 11-23-2020, 02:40 PM   #95
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I am sorry for my part in this. I went back and looked and things went along pretty well until I made a comment regarding the nature of this forum in post #28 (and a follow-up in #34). Until then, there was a decent discussion, at least I think so.

Please forgive me for my part in the derailment of this thread.

And since the original poster seems to take umbrage with my comments, I will sideline myself.
Can't we all just get along? I'm miffed that ExChurckKid is gone.

Cuz of her honesty and openness, she grew on me quickly. But we've connected by cell phones. I'm happy about that.

Now I see why gay or not ladies aren't welcomed here.

Seems out here we're all suppose to be the same. A repeat of the LC. So we left the church, but the church didn't leave us. Sorry to say.
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Old 11-23-2020, 02:43 PM   #96
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Can't we all just get along? I'm miffed that ExChurckKid is gone.

Cuz of her honesty and openness, she grew on me quickly. But we've connected by cell phones. I'm happy about that.

Now I see why gay or not ladies aren't welcomed here.

Seems out here we're all suppose to be the same. A repeat of the LC. So we left the church, but the church didn't leave us. Sorry to say.

I decided to come back . I guess my decision to give up on the forum was a little pre-mature. But still...I agree with the sentiment behind what awareness is saying.
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Old 11-23-2020, 02:52 PM   #97
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Exchurchkid- sure, I would stop mentioning anything along the lines of you needing help. Hopefully you find all the you answers you desire on this forum- best of luck.
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Old 11-23-2020, 03:20 PM   #98
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Exchurchkid- sure, I would stop mentioning anything along the lines of you needing help. Hopefully you find all the you answers you desire on this forum- best of luck.

Thanks, much appreciated!
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Old 11-23-2020, 04:51 PM   #99
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I'm happy to answer this, thanks for asking! I think it's the powerlessness, and then everything stems from that. As minors we are under the control of our parents, financially and emotionally. Our parents require us to follow the LC doctrine, so the doctrine dictates our lives. The strict rules our parents enforce, both through punishments and shaming, are enforced and encouraged by all adults in our lives, because all adults our parents allow around us are LC people. The Recovery isn't well known, so complaining to people outside of it isn't very productive. At the same time, the brainwashing takes the power to dissent and think critically away from us. There is no escape, we learn. We are rebellious and wanting to leave is our natural sinful nature coming out. This is drilled into us. Sometimes it takes all the way through college and even grad school to experience the outside world enough to realize something is wrong. Then it takes therapy to overcome the brainwashing. Then you realize you're isolated from the world around you. Leaving the church leaves you isolated, because the church isolated you for so long. You have no friends. If your family is in the church, you don't have them. If they aren't, you don't have them either because they won't believe their own family members did this to you. And you don't have a relationship with them anyway because your parents kept you away from them, emotionally if not physically.
I can so much relate to this. My parentsí only friends are in the LC, if they can even be called friends because I know most of them would defriend them if my prents ever decide to leave, which at this point is unliekly. Iíve told therapists about LC and they just give me a blank look until I compare them to JW or Mormons or the Amish.

But Exchurchkid, it seems that since both of us were raised in the Lc but were able to escape from it, it speaks more to our strength and ability to think for ourselves despite outside influences. The loneliness will take some years to overcome, because we have to start from scratch so to speak. We were babies when we joined the LC- it takes hears for us to overcome the learned helplessness babies experience in detrimental environments.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:08 PM   #100
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This thread got even messier, locking it is my recommendation.

If you need help on this forum Exchurchkid, I think trapped is your best bet.
Trapped, me and awareness, the ďhumanist atheistĒ haha. but yes Ohio and Sons of Glory, they are difficult to please. Iíve grown to love their stories though.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:12 PM   #101
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Have you ordained yourself as the forum speech-Nazi?

STG was gracefully backing out of the discussion but you still took a parting shot.
Ohio, what is up with you? are you doing okay? Exchurchkid, he called me a Nazi on another thread, so it seems like itís a pattern of his.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:34 PM   #102
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All posts that do not address the theme of the thread, as stated in the opening post, will be deleted without further notice.

Let's get this one back on track.

-
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:39 PM   #103
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The way he is using Nazi in this regard is just a reference to the connotation of being overly authoritarian/control freak. It's like when people use the term "grammar" Nazi when referring someone who persecutes people who don't have the utmost highest standard in language/literature. I can see how people will take it negatively and maybe overthink the use of it. I am not taking sides here and taking a stance on his statement, I'm simply just want to clear the air and make clear he is not trying to directly call you a supporter or sympathizer for the national socialist party of the German empire in the 1930s-40s.............

Ohio prob is a little aggrivated from the interactions from exchurcmmeber and himself but Ill let him speak for himself since he is more than capable of doing so.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:42 PM   #104
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But yeah- let's get back to the op topic, just pm each other at this point if any of you want to have a more personal off topic convo. Otherwise let's move on!!!!!
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Old 11-24-2020, 07:33 AM   #105
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I can so much relate to this. My parentsí only friends are in the LC, if they can even be called friends because I know most of them would defriend them if my prents ever decide to leave, which at this point is unliekly. Iíve told therapists about LC and they just give me a blank look until I compare them to JW or Mormons or the Amish.

But Exchurchkid, it seems that since both of us were raised in the Lc but were able to escape from it, it speaks more to our strength and ability to think for ourselves despite outside influences. The loneliness will take some years to overcome, because we have to start from scratch so to speak. We were babies when we joined the LC- it takes hears for us to overcome the learned helplessness babies experience in detrimental environments.

Thanks for the kind words, and I agree with you . For therapists, I've found it helpful to mention Living Stream Ministry so they have something to google. But that goes back to my whole "we should write a book so people have more knowledge" thing. I'm really glad thelordsrecovery.org is a thing, so it actually is more google-able now than when we were younger.
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Old 11-24-2020, 08:38 AM   #106
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Thanks for the kind words, and I agree with you . For therapists, I've found it helpful to mention Living Stream Ministry so they have something to google. But that goes back to my whole "we should write a book so people have more knowledge" thing. I'm really glad thelordsrecovery.org is a thing, so it actually is more google-able now than when we were younger.
Those in the local church are delusional. And you young ladies managed to escape that delusion. Now you can put the pieces back together, or finally gather them together, and be who you are. Not what they want you to be.

I'm happy for you gals, but concerned. Concerned because the church can really scramble you up, so it ain't very easy to get over it.

But seems you both are sweet hearts.
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