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#1 |
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www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/Leaders.pdf
"Although there are proper reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010 |
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#2 | |
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This article is a well written challenge to the current leadership of the LSM, and includes recent condemnations issued from on high and directed at Steve Isitt. Can this article be printed out on the forum? Nigel's are printed out and some of them are 10x longer.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#3 |
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Many of the Blended brothers don't need to be told what happened. They know. They were there. Especially ones who resided in Orange County California at the time; Ron, Dan, Minoru, Dick, etc. The problem as Igzy pointed out in another thread is pride. Self-centered pride restricts from a brother 1. being humble and 2. being honest. That's just for starters. Instead an attitude has permeated many decent brothers; "even if I'm wrong, I'm still right".
Reading Steve's article one phrase that caught my attention was: "Thus, there is no regard for Brother Lee’s word that he himself was wrong in the past and that leaders, including Brother Lee, have made mistakes. The record shows that he did, and they did, make serious mistakes, to the extent that if diligent study was done, outside the facade of innocence in the leadership, the entire history would need to be re-written and earnest repentances made, and a Jubilee granted to the wrongfully cast out, driven out, or left behind saints. " Key word being Jubilee. Though I had heard the term many years ago, it wasn't until this past year did I learn what the Jubilee truly was. You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family. Leviticus 25:10 |
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#4 |
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http://www.LeadersoftheLordsRecovery...gasEcuador.pdf
Compare the three accounts of dishonored former leaders - John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, and John So to those three books of honored leaders in the Lord’s recovery - Ron Kangas, Andrew Yu, and Witness Lee. I have done this over a span of 12 years and report my findings openly, and in the light. But you seem to be hiding, and afraid of the truth I speak. Moreover, I seem to “have become your enemy by presenting the truth to you.” 1989 Ron Kangas 1989 AndrewYu 1990 Witness Lee www.ourneedtoexamineourselves.com/ThreeBooks.pdf |
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#5 |
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"When doing a Google search on my name in 2010, immediately one very positive document appeared toward the top, My Experience in the Local Churches; and one negative one appeared at the very top, Ron Kangas’ public word declaring at an international leaders conference in South America that I was a “man of death” and “one of the most evil speakers on the internet”. I called his home to discuss this public speaking with him and left a message with his wife for him to call me. There was no response from him. I then wrote him a letter a few months later expressing my desire to fellowship with him over his concerns about me and my writings on the internet. But I did not hear back from him."
Bless brother Ron, but after what he spoke in Ecuador, with his speaking accessible on the internet, and with brother Steve's efforts to reach Ron by phone and in writing; Ron's no response is clearly irresponsible. One should not have to resort to legal means in order to get a response. |
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#6 |
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Brother Ron also had this to say in Ecaudor:
"But suppose a brother just wants to work. He says, “why can’t I be a worker? All these old workers, they are dead. We are young and vital.” That is how the great upheaval began in Taiwan 50 years ago. You plan to repeat that history? The young ones rose up. They said all of you are the older generation, you are old and dead, we have seen the vision. The Lord’s move is with us. And, to make the story short, they caused a lot of damage. A whole generation in the churches was lost. And, all of these young workers came to nothing." This is what happened in the late 1980's as well. Elders were told there were old, etc by younger ambitious brothers. Just as brother Ron has mentioned, these younger brothers back in the late 1980's "they caused a lot of damage. A whole generation in the churches was lost." |
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#7 | |
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I used to like Ron Kangas as a gifted teacher, but his views of Recovery history and LSM's seamy actions behind closed doors, like those of his mentor Witness Lee, are steeped in hypocrisy, misrepresentations, gross distortions, and twisting of the scripture, all for selfish gain.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#8 |
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![]() Ron in Ecuador Before Ron Kangas went to Ecuador in 2008 he knew about independent workers in South America who were no longer under brother Dong, but neither were they in coordination with the LSM churches. He, therefore, said in Ecuador concerning them that LSM does not consider these brothers to be their co-workers since they do not yet recognize the headship of Christ in the "local churches", and respect the elders of each "local church". Ron also heard of my writings that were circulating among at least enough people to make him very concerned. Among those writings was Bill Mallon’s letter to Brother Lee, which I had commented on and which Ron alluded to in his 2008 message in Ecuador. But, he did so in derogatory fashion, not making reference to Bill Mallon’s devastating experience with LSM co-workers in the late 1980s who at that time themselves did not recognize the headship of Christ with the elders among the churches,which was a big problem to Bill and other elders in the Southeast churches. This vital matter was skipped over by Ron in his speaking in Ecuador, as he mentioned Bill's letter only in a negative light. Because Ron Kangas did not want to justify Bill's concerns or my writings, he portrayed Bill Mallon’s letter as bad for his appeal to Brother Lee about LSM’s ignoble behavior in the Southeast, and he portrayed me as bad, as well, for circulating Bill’s letter, and other writings also. Transcript Part 2: “Brothers, here are the two extremes, one extreme is control. Someone is in charge of the whole country; he is in charge of the work in this country. And, he has people under him and it is a system of hierarchy and control. If we know the Spirit we will not take this. This is not the headship of Christ and the Body of Christ. Those who have been under this kind of thing may go to the other extreme, so they don’t respect anyone with any kind of leadership. You are in the old regime, we are in the new way. Are we not workers? I would say, you are workers, deceitful workers, and you yourself are deceived, thinking you are something you are not. You might be an evil worker opposing God’s economy, but that is not likely. Or, as the Lord said, you might be a worker of lawlessness. That means with you there is no authority. You are not a man under authority. You are your own king.” Comment: Since several brothers in South America knew LSM’s history, they would find “independence” from LSM perhaps best for them under the circumstances. But Ron goes ahead and puts these workers in a bad light, along with Bill Mallon and myself in front of the congregation, deceiving them, and appearing to be a “minister of righteousness” among the leaders in S. America. And one who shows no compassion, understanding, or acknowledgement of the real situation. Ron, though, is good, LSM is good, Local Churches are good, and he keeps everything in a good light, falsely. This is not a true leader, but one who is deceitful, lawless, and false. He does not know things as he ought to know them, and if what I am saying is not true, will DCP or someone please stand up and support Ron's claims that I am indeed a man of death for choosing to feed people the truth instead of perpetuating the fictional stories devised at LSM and “sold” to the saints as real. www.twoturmoils.com/MallonLetterLeeResponse.pdf Steve Isitt 9-8-2013 |
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#9 | |
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Is Kangas being serious? What kind of delusion is he under to condemn Dong for controlling a country when he himself assumes to be deputy authority of the whole earth? Here he is only mimicking Lee's presumptuous ways, i.e. condemn all other Christian leaders of control to convince your following that you alone do not control. Having watched LSM for years, one could rightly conclude that Kangas and LSM care only about being in charge, not just of the USA, but also the whole world. Why else would Kangas travel to South America? For decades LSM has demanded that they alone be "in charge of the work." "Wars and rumors of wars" often called "storms and rebellions" in the Recovery were fought solely on this fact. Brothers reputations around the globe have been destroyed so that LSM alone would be "in charge of the work." And Dong has "people under him." Imagine that! Only LSM is allowed such a prerogative. To tell the truth, in the eyes of Kangas, the source of the whole problem in Brazil is that Dong is not under LSM. Didn't Dong get that memo from the throne of God that Ron Kangas and the Blended oligarchy are now His Deputy Authority over all God's work on earth? Then Kangas falls back on Lee's old denunciation that the real Recovery alone has no "hierarchy and control." That's what Witness Lee taught us, so it must be true! Does Kangas really feel that no control exists because we have no titles in the Recovery, only "brothers." The biggest farce in the Recovery is that churches are "local," when in fact they have become nothing more than franchises legitimized by LSM.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#10 | |
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Steve Isitt writes ...
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They are convinced that, as God's Deputy Authority over the whole earth, they can freely pass judgments on any and all things Christian. These "Spiritual Judges" don't need the typical legal proceedings which regulate our judicial system, and protect the normal rights of individuals. These "Spiritual Judges" are above all that. They can make up their own rules if and when they see fit. Let's put this another way. If a sitting trial judge sentences a convicted criminal to life imprisonment, would he accept a phone call from that criminal seeking "fellowship?" Would that judge accept a letter from the criminal expressing his concerns? The obvious answer to both questions is "no, of course not!" In fact, the judge would consider this as harassment, and possibly further charges against the criminal would be considered. This is the exact same mindset at LSM. Unfortunately, based on the clear teachings of the Bible, Steve Isitt believes that he and Ron Kangas are both brothers, are both children of God, and thus should seriously pray and consider reconciliation. Steve is convinced that this is the proper course of action. I commend him for this, but, sorry to say, brother Ron Kangas is no longer just a brother. He got promoted.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#11 | |
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"Before listening to tapes #3 and #4 of brother Ron Kangas I happened to be at someone’s 50th year birthday party and in comes two local church brothers who happened to be invited also. We engaged in an hour long conversation in which they told me I needed to forget all these things of the past, and that I was bitter, and that I needed to humble myself and take the cross to my opinion, encouraging me to listen to Ron Kangas’ tapes given the previous weekend. So, I did and paid close attention to what he was actually saying and the attitude he was conveying. In a grand display of rhetoric about the cross he impressed his listeners of the need among so many people in the world who live by the self to have their mouths stopped. Concerning on-line speakers such as myself, he categorically states that none of us knows the cross, the Lord, or the Body, that “what they love is not the saints but the things of the saints and to talk about them; so they go online and expose what they know to the whole world.” We only care for the self and for retaliation against those who have offended us, according to Ron’s limited understanding. He is obviously shaken a bit by the just truths he's read on the internet and is struggling to keep his unjust world intact instead of humbly subjecting himself to our online concerns and any speaking of the Lord to him. He says, “I don’t fear you going online. It is good for me to be flayed. But it is not good for you. We’ll love you, you are the will of God to us, but you are on a fast track to outer darkness.” This is his “love to us” to let us know we are on a fast track to outer darkness, and again, as always, offering no support to his statement, or an invitation to come to a table of fellowship, as they had accomplished to their favor with CRI. Indeed, while the leadership has ignored our requests to properly come to a table of mutual fellowship, they make no requests of their own for such a gathering and then wonder why we are now online to speak our concerns. Ron Kangas, meanwhile, uses an international stage to disparage us, brothers and sisters he doesn’t really know, or care about, dismissing us as ones offended by the church, who make “lawless use of the internet”, little realizing that we are God’s mercy to him. An encouraging word, at the end of a long message on the cross, was that Ron said he longs for the reality of the church life and, adding a little levity, said he hoped his wife would not report him to the blending brothers. I think Ron actually needs a very long vacation, to remote resort locations far away from the pulpit, the crowd, the laudits and relax and rejuvenate, and contemplate for himself what he said about others that “they don’t know themselves; they only know the weaknesses of others, that’s what they talk about.” Just leave Jerusalem, go north to Philippi, where the air is fresh and clean, and become clear about yourself, sharing normally with the guy sipping the martini in the lawn chair next to you how much you are enjoying life away from the pulpit and meeting people like him. And, see Who appears to enjoy these people with you and what He will have to share with them in a ministry that is Himself. And, eventually, return home with a ministry that is just Himself with deep interest in “each man” and “every man” for, ultimately, the building up of His Body. How encouraging and inspiring that would be." _END |
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#12 | |
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Prior to his LSM career he was an elder in Detroit. That church imploded and eventually shut down due to leadership issues. His so called "ministry" today consists of repeating Witness Lee messages - something that takes very little effort or skill. And personally I can think of very few things more boring than listening to him do this. ![]() |
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#13 | |
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#14 | |
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All the while Ron's speaking passing over 1987-1989 and the role LSM functioned in the late 80's turmoil. Has anyone ever considered if LSM coworkers did not undermine fellowship of local elders, Bill Mallon does not write that letter to Witness Lee? |
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#15 | |
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#16 | |
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#17 |
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Ron Kangas is a long-time salaried employee of LSM who's job is to be a Witness Lee Parrot. He has a "vision" of the person and work of Witness Lee. No amount of "spiritual" gibber jabber will make him have a real ministry. He could be working for FORD selling cars instead he happens to be working for LSM selling Witness Lee!
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#18 | |
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Most men aren't attracted to stupid women and I doubt the Lord is going to be attracted by a stupid Bride. So while you are "bridifying" yourself you might consider "intelligencizing" yourself as well. Of course, if you did that you'd start to question most of the stupid assertions of your leaders, such as the idea that questioning or criticizing your movement equals "death." It is painfully obvious you've been taught to turn your brain off, and that you have cheerfully complied. All that kind of talk is nothing but thought control. These guys want you to remain ignorant so you don't question them and continue to support their agenda. God, on the other hand, has a real plan for you life. I suggest you seek it out. I doubt he will be amused at the judgment seat by a plea of, "See, Lord? I did everything brother Ron said and never questioned him." Dream on if you think that is going to fly. ![]() |
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#19 | |
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You are correct the Truth is not a thing and Light is not a thing. Jesus Christ our LORD and KING is the Truth and the LIGHT. What I see in your comments and your -prayer- I address respectfully. There is no ideal church except in Spirit and in Truth. Reading the same recycled messages over and over, year after year, repeating the same prayers over and over have to bore our Great God and Father to tears. The only people who see something different, a type of Light under the ministry of Lee's work are new people who have never been in the LC or know anyone in the LC...or whatever the LSM is now called. They stay long long enough there...and they are going to get bored reading the same messages, hearing the same messages just in different colors. Kool Aid is Kool Aid no matter what color it comes in. It tastes the same. By my 5th year after having gotten saved in the LC, the messages, songs, hymns began to be broken records for me. There was nothing new coming from the Throne. That was because man stopped the flow from the Throne. BTW...there was a time when there was no RcV...no life studies, no HWMRs. The saints took their KJ or NASB bibles to work and school which is what we used back then. They knew were scriptures were. As the opportunity rose to share the Word with someone, they took them to the Word and showed them the 'River of Life'. They would splash them and give them to drink from Fountain of Living Waters. Those days are long gone. You may disagree and you are entitled to disagree. But I know what I speak of. That prayer you posted is the same prayer I/we prayed back in 1975!!! I do not know what the Recovery version says about vain repetition but in my bible Matthew 6:7 says this: And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. The prayers of the LSM have not changed since 1975. Your prayer proved it. I am not trying to be offensive whatsoever. But the TRUTH sets the captive free. LIGHT dispels darkness. Religion and vain repetitions are bondage. You may not think you are in a religious church. It is not until you step out and the blinders are removed that we see the LIGHT. It was not easy for me to step out for I feared what would become of me and what would the LORD do to me. Why do people leave any 'church' ? (of course, the LSM is "the Lord's Recovery" -we know that.) Because it is dead. There is no corporate anointing. There might be some individuals here and there truly Anointed with the Spirit of TRUTH and the Spirit of LIGHT as there are everywhere, but by and large, the church is lukewarm or dead. My prayer for all my brothers and sisters in Christ is for the Living, Kind and Compassionate WORD of God to restore their health, spiritual, emotional and physical and to heal their wounds according to His Promise. Jesus came to heal the brokenhearted, the sick, the lame, to humble the proud. There are so many wounds. There are so many divisions. It is heart breaking to see. The world is making a laughing stock out of us. No matter. Jesus Christ alone tears down the walls of partition. I keep running the race with endurance. I pray without ceasing pray. I do my best as most of us on this forum do, with the Help of the Holy Spirit to encourage and uplift Christians and non-Christians alike. (of course, most people here were in the LSM a whole lot longer than I ever was and thus their mission is to help those struggling with questions, doubts and fear of leaving the LSM, not to be afraid.) For me, my mission is as the Holy Spirit gives me opportunity, I lead people to the Lord Jesus Christ. I teach them the Word of God and the Power of the Precious Blood of the Lamb so they too can share the GOOD NEWS with people without handing them a HWMR or life studies or an RcV with emphasis on Lee's notes. We must all be careful not to grieve and stifle the Holy Spirit. Don't put Him in a box...be it the LRC (Lord's recovery) or otherwise. Otherwise He is not the LIFE GIVING, LOVE GIVING, LIGHT GIVING Spirit of God. Behold He TRULY makes all things new. To Almighty God (El-Shaddai) be all Glory, Praise Honor and Blessing. For He alone is Worthy. HE in The Father, The Spirit and the Son, Jesus Christ--3 in One. Blessings, Carol G
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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#20 |
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![]() Responsible Brothers Protect the Church from Death In that gathering of leaders in Ambato, Ecuador, 2008, Ron Kangas said, “This meeting is for responsible brothers, and I assume you understand yourself to be a responsible brother. What are you responsible for? Well one thing is to protect the church from death. The Lord said the gates of Hades will not prevail, but that means they will attack. If you don’t know life and death, how can you protect the church? Ron, this should be my last year, if not my last week, of striving to bring attention to the truth of our church history and the major sources of the spreading of death among us. You do not recognize my work of 12 years as legitimate and true but state rather that my writings spread death and are therefore of the devil (Heb. 2:14). It is not that my writings spread death, but they certainly tell the story of the spreading of death and the "agents of Satan" responsible for the spreading. You, in fact, unwittingly, are one of those agents. Andrew Yu is another. And, of course, Philip Lee was one with Satan as the LSM office manager, and LSM itself joined forces with Satan to make havoc in the churches and also make sure Philip and LSM were kept out of local church history books, thus completing their cover-up of Philip Lee and LSM’s major role in causing division. You remember this, Ron, do you not, the dalliance that elders and co-workers had with the devil and Philip Lee? Both were welcomed into the church with wide open arms in the era when the churches began (1974) to align themselves with “the office”, and become ministry-centered churches under Witness Lee. (Refer to Appendix 1) Dalliance with the Devil Besides his usurpations of elders, his violations of principles of oneness in the Body of Christ, and the exercise of his evil temper around the saints, Philip Lee was an immoral, fleshly, and fleshy person acting as manager of LSM, with top elders and co-workers answering to him, and coming under his sway and sphere of influence. His relationship with the elders corrupted them. His relationship with sisters in LSM corrupted them. It was a huge mistake to hire him. It was also a huge mistake not to fire him sooner. His tandem leadership relationship with his father damaged Brother Lee and spread corruption throughout the whole recovery. Benson Phillips and Ray Graver followed this person and strongly and persistently encouraged other leaders to do the same. Witness Lee’s hiring of his own non-spiritual son and his reluctance to fire him amid growing confirmed reports of his moral violations and his interferences in the churches was both bizarre and inexplicable, bringing immorality into the office, chaos into the church in Anaheim, corruption into the churches, and major division into the recovery. But you won’t hear about this in official LSM annals. All this is missing from the records, as the cover-ups and disingenuous reporting prevail to this day in the churches. Yet, voices of truth do speak. John So sums up the difficulties of conscience in dealing with the problem of Brother Lee and his son during their tandem leadership reign in the churches, as John put the concerns of brothers in Europe into print in a letter to Brother Lee, thereby avoiding the dalliance with the devil and Philip Lee that others succumbed to in the Lord’s recovery. link to copy of original LETTER OF DISASSOCIATION http://www.unfaithfulwitness.org/Eur...Depart1989.pdf “Dear brother Witness Lee, It has come to our attention recently through several witnesses that gross immorality and some other sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5:11 have been committed by your son Philip Lee (who is identified as your Ministry Office) on more than one occasion over a long period of time. This deeply disturbs us. It grieves us even more that you and some of your close co-workers were aware of the situation and yet not only tolerated it but covered it up. What is worse is that, while this was happening, you and your co-workers were promoting and exalting him to the extent that he was able to intervene in the churches’ affairs in recent years. The peak of this promotion was evident at your elders’ training in Taipei in June 1987. Some of your co-workers were not only themselves under the influence and control of Philip Lee, but were also openly bringing elders and young people of many local churches to come under the same influence and control of Philip Lee in your name and for your sake. The five brothers whom you and your Office sent to Europe in your place in May 1986 were trying to do the same here. Our young people who went to your training in Taipei have also testified of the same. Before God, before the brothers and sisters in the local churches, before the Christian public, and for the sake of the Lord’s testimony, we are compelled by our conscience to fully disassociate ourselves from such sins and behaviour in your work.” (the signatures of twenty-one brothers from nine churches in Europe who withdrew from the recovery on September 17, 1989 are on the original letter.) Speaking Up or Covering Up Responsible Brothers speak up instead of cover-up. They speak up to protect the church; they do not cover up to protect a man and a ministry. John So spoke up to protect the church, as did Bill Mallon in statements in his letter to Brother Lee, saying, “I believe that a kind of blind loyalty has been promoted, which issues into a propensity to obstruct truthfulness and single hearted faithfulness. Blind loyalty is very much of the soulish, natural life. It blinds us to honesty and reality, leads us down a narrow and false pathway, and protects our self serving ambitions from challenge and criticism.” But Ron Kangas, as a head of a movement for a man and a ministry that began in 1974, deems all such fellowship as death and will not speak up but only cover-up, saying to those men who read such writings,“Why do you need to know so much?" Appendix 1 Former well-respected elder from Texas speaks out on the critical juncture the churches came to in 1974 that changed the direction and nature of the recovery. Don Rutledge ~ In January 1974 Witness Lee and Max Rapaport launched the movement. It was boldly declared that the churches would use WL as the exclusive source of teaching and MR would serve as the coordinator to bring the various churches with their elders into a unified movement. Ministry stations began in several key cities where local brothers repeated Brother Lee's message each week that was given in Anaheim. The official list of men who could give conferences was announced. From that time on, the individual churches would be called to account if they were moving “independently.” In addition to coordinating the elders and churches to act in a single direction, MR was charged to assist the various churches to be more effective with gospel preaching and outreach. Thus the Movement was launched. MR began to travel and meet with the churches and in particular with the elders. He began to sort out the elders. Those who would not be good movement men were pushed aside if possible or moved somewhere where they would be out of the way. On several occasions MR told me how he was working to bring the elders and churches into one coordination for the purpose of carrying out the burden of WL. He told me several times that only he could “put the whole thing together.” After he left, he told the elders in Denver that the elders and WL would ask him to return because only “he could put the whole thing together.” Of course I can give great detail regarding the above but will save that for another time. I am not attempting to call into question the motives of WL or of MR. WL did some very good teaching during this time. MR did some very good gospel work during this time. But what did happen is the nature of the various “local churches” changed from being local in administration and spontaneous in actions to being directed from a center with clear administrative leaders and directors. Things were definitely not the same. I have heard some in the Mid-West say “the time of Blessing had passed.” Some have said we changed our vision or words to that effect. Some have said the moving of the Spirit left. Some said teaching and doctrine and methods replaced life. It was this time, the time of becoming a movement that opened the door to Philip Lee and set the stage for the current BBs. This time ended with a split between WL and MR. It was a power struggle not a matter of Philip Lee’s unrighteousness. MR had his followers and WL had his. WL won out. After the split with MR, there was a pause in the development of the movement. WL began again to start up the movement consolidation in 1981. He bought property in Irving Texas and began making plans to strengthen the movement. By 1984 the first round of law suits had been won. WL declared that the boulders were off the road and the “Lord’s Recovery” could proceed. 1986 put the final pieces in place. The movement looked nothing like the early days of Elden Hall, Ohio, the Northwest or Texas or other places. Appendix 2 Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches 2008 Hello everyone, I had to “laugh” when an elder told a brother recently that I should have handled matters of our past “in house” and not publicly on the internet. This brother evidently doesn’t understand that there is no such thing as handling matters “in house”. It has been over seven years since I initially presented my burden “in house” about matters of our past and was placed in shackles as a result. The shackles remain to this day. There was no fellowship then, and there is none now. The brothers were afraid because I put the matters of my concern in print; albeit, I did so seeking first their fellowship over the points made in the book. I provided six hard copies to elders for their serious contemplation and did the same with six other saints – all for sake of having fellowship “in house”. My thought was to build a bridge of communication to the many that left the churches. When I found that I was on my own with this idea and the brothers were not going to be supportive, (“jailing” me instead), I sent out copies to others by email. Later, after acquiring much more understanding of the facts of local church history, and asking the brothers for fellowship along the way and being ignored, I placed pertinent information in abundance on the internet that would help leaders and other saints, past and present, understand local church history according to facts, not the myths and fabrications of LSM lore. (I said earlier I had to “laugh”; more accurately I was mainly incensed about the elder's statement about keeping matters "in house". Leading brothers in the churches don’t get facts straight and never will as long as they remain closed to them and regard their "one accord" even above truth. The lies and misrepresentations continue in the recovery as blind brothers follow the lead of other blind brothers in avoiding forthright dealings with serious unrighteous matters of our local church history.) Here is my initial letter to Dan Towle. (I could not have been more naïve, even after being warned about the impenetrable wall I would encounter addressing such brothers. I genuinely thought I could find men with a conscience in the leadership. With regard to my motive, intention, and purity in this cause, I was like a lamb. A very dumb lamb, on his way to the slaughter.) "Dear Dan, (January 28, 2001) I have written a little book for the sake of fellowship, mainly with leading ones, concerning our past sixteen-year history of the new way. I think this period of time in the Lord’s recovery warrants our careful study of both the benefits and the costs to the church in what was such a highly controversial move among us in those beginning years. I wanted to come to you because I feel it is safe to do so. If I am inaccurate or unfair in some way, perhaps you are the most qualified one to catch me that I could either make an adjustment or terminate the proposed fellowship. I hope we can have a good, thorough, and upright fellowship over this booklet called In the Wake of the New Way, while remembering the Lord’s prayer ‘that they all may be one’ and the repeated petitions from our brother Lee, not only to heed the trumpet call for the Lord’s new move, but also to respond to the call for the rendering of care to every member for the building up of the Body in love…. I would welcome your phone call or e-mail message at ………… and don’t intend for this booklet to be widespread; rather, I hope that ones who do receive it could do so in the Lord, with a holy regard and respect given to those who left the recovery, and a godly consideration rendered to those who remain, but who are in need of more significant care...." This was only the first of many attempts to handle matters “in house” with several brothers over a seven-year period. At my three-year point, the hidden matters of our history spilled over to the internet, only after the brothers took issue with Harvest House about a book they felt was defamatory. I then presented our history on the internet as a parallel story and as our own far more serious case of defamation. Since there was NO FELLOWSHIP “in house” and since I was continuing to be held in a disciplinary mode, (in shackles provided by leaders in Bellevue and Seattle), I changed my approach. I have several documents showing these attempts at fellowship. What a misrepresentation for an elder to say that I should have handled things “in house”. It could not be done! Others have also experienced the impossibility of having genuine fellowship with most leaders in the local churches. Eventually, you must just proclaim. And, this is what I have done. And, all the time with the hope for the cooperation, meaningful dialogue, and genuine mutual fellowship of local church leaders. 08-30-2008 |
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#21 | |
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When you as a brother or sister begin equating right/wrong to the Tree of Knowledge, you are supressing the consciences function. |
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http://leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/...Steveisitt.pdf
I have been amazed and appalled at the apathy of Ron Kangas toward former leaders and toward me also who brings his attention to their testimony It is as if Ron lives in a bubble unaware of and not caring for anything outside of it. He is a Company Man and has bought into a Company Movement and cares only for what benefits the Company. He and other Movement Men can see nothing else. A Responsible company Man in a company Movement cannot see anything else as Ron proves in his references to those working outside the Company’s vision and goals. |
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www.BrotherAndrewYu.com
Andrew Yu was so entirely blinded in his concept of deputy authority that he expressed no human feeling in his book regarding the distressing and trying circumstances that existed for many brothers under Witness Lee’s leadership. Andrew dismissed and buried their grave concerns, saying, “There has never been a case, either in the Scriptures or in church history, where a servant of God has been found to be perfect. A perfect person does not exist. None of us can claim to be perfect.” (p. 5) Blind Loyalty In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority. In the case where authority is corrupted, God is the One who deals with it, since he alone is the One who establishes it. It is not up to those under authority to scheme against it. Saul was corrupted to the uttermost, but David always and with impeccability recognized Saul as God’s anointed authority. In the same principle the archangel Michael dared not to rebuke Satan, but would only ask the Lord to do it (Jude 9). Satan still had his authority, even though he had already fallen. This case shows us the immutability of the spiritual principle that once a person is a spiritual authority over others and recognized as a spiritual authority, he is always so. To overthrow such a one, for any reason, constitutes rebellion.” (pp. 13, 31) Andrew’s idea of establishing a king forever to bow to is contrary to what is spoken in the ministry itself, derailing Andrew’s faulty word to the elders and co-workers. |
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#25 | |
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And so forth. As always, a case of "do as I say, not as I do." Or, "This is a firm and immutable rule which applies to everyone at all times." * * (But not to me)
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So how come Lee got to say "all this negative stuff" about everyone else, including those in his beloved Recovery? How could Lee freely and openly "feel so terribly toward other believers" without it also setting off some internal alarm? Why was there no "feeling of death" registering there? I believe there must be a throne set up in the local churches. The "apostle of the age", who is "God's deputy authority" and "God's oracle" sits on that throne and can pretty much trash whomever, whenever. But should anyone else think the slightest thing independently of or "gasp!" critically of God's "man of the hour", this is held as rebellion, instigated by the universe's chief rebel, Satan himself. I guess that is the thought process at work here. I don't know how else to explain the dichotomy between what we continually hear and what we continually see.
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#27 | |
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As I often explain to a brother it's in military terms. When LSM/DCP goes on the offensive, the brothers have much to say. However when a contrary response is delivered to LSM/DCP, they go into their bunker. Not a whisper is heard. It's okay for LSM/DCP to go an the offesnive, but it's not okay for LSM/DCP to be the recepient of a counter-offensive. How is it when brother Steve was in Southern California and he offered to come meet with DCP, they suddenly became unavailable? |
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#28 | |
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Andrew Yu is basically saying that if someone has spiritual authority and then denies the faith and goes out and starts a porn site that he still has spiritual authority over everyone. Where does he get this stuff? It's nonsense. Worse, it's bullying. It's just a fear-based power play dressed up as some profound truth. It's an insult to the Lord and his Body. It's long past time to start tuning these guys out. There has to be a better place to realize God's purpose than anything they are a part of. |
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In the late 1980s Andrew Yu and Ron Kangas were paid employees of Witness Lee's publishing company LSM. Obviously they are going to write advertorials in support of their boss and hope their intended readership are gullible enough to swallow it. In my view they are just hucksters.
But astonishingly per material at Indiana's link on this thread some like Don Rutledge can't seem to grasp that Witness Lee was the common denominator in all the "turmoils". (Even while dead he was the common denominator in the BB v. Titus Chu split.) There was no power struggle between Witness Lee and Max Rapoport. Rapoport knew that he did not have the same stature as Witness Lee in the LC system. He said and did things under the direction of Witness Lee who was actively and firmly at the helm running "the work". When Witness Lee's ideas and methods didn't work out he used Rapoport as a convenience scapegoat. Furthermore an underlying issue WAS Philip Lee and his improprieties in the LSM office which Rapoport attempted to address in the late 1970s as did some coworkers and elders in the late 1980s. That is to say AFTER Rapoport was ousted the problem of Witness Lee (and his son) STILL persisted in the LC system for another decade or so until another batch of coworkers and elders were ousted for addressing some of the same issues. So although what Andrew Yu wrote is nonsense to most people it is true for the LC system: Witness Lee is their MOTA, the authority that cannot be questioned, etc. And their history even up until today proves the point - his writings are more authoritative than the Bible itself and they even have divisions over who's interpretation of his writings are official, authentic etc. |
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#30 | |
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Lee loved to teach high and spiritual principles to the whole of the Recovery, yet never felt obligated to keep any of his own decrees. Lee taught never to mix business with the church, yet he did so with Daystar. Lee taught never to bring family members into the ministry, yet his son Philip ran LSM molesting sisters and abusing elders. Lee taught that we all should have been like "policemen" confronting Max Rapoport, yet when any stood up to speak their conscience to Lee, their reputations were immediately smeared.
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True: now the local churches, which supposedly exist for the recovery of the one Body of Christ, are having divisions regarding which interpretations and applications of the ministry of Witness Lee are most appropriate to recover the oneness of the Body of Christ.
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#32 | |
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Equally telling, to me, was that once Watchman Nee decided that the European Protestant churches in China were "corrupted to the uttermost" his ensuing revelation was that he didn't have to submit to their authority, "no, not even for an hour" (Gal 2:5).
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#33 | |
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At my job there is a cleaning lady, and I always try to have some encouragement for her. She is middle aged, divorced, with two teen-aged children. She is Hispanic, probably has RCC background. Every time I tell her about her heavenly Father who in love sent His Son Jesus, her face shines and her eyes open wide and hungrily absorb every trace of light I can emit. Now I ask, "why can't I be a worker?" Answer: anyone can. Anyone can do the work of the Lord. "Feed my sheep. Feed my lambs. Shepherd my sheep." Those were the Lord's words to us all, clearly. The Lord said, "Whenever you do this to these the least of my brothers you do it unto Me." This woman qualifies as the least of the Lord's bretheren, and presents an opportunity to work, a chance to feed and shepherd. Now with the local church clergy-laity system of "workers" and "responsible ones" you have to be assigned by headquarters or you will be on the outside plaintively asking, "why can't I be a worker?" Matthew 14:19 "Taking the five loaves and the two fish ... he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people."
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www.BrotherDanTowle.com
Dan Towle – An original Concerned Brother John Ingalls speaking. About the second week of October we began to fellowship with Dan Towle, an elder in the church in Fullerton and a trainer from the full-time training in Taipei, who was attempting to give direction and help to the fifty or sixty full-timers who had moved from Taipei to Orange County. To his great frustration, the full-timers were taken over by the LSM office and its management, and were charged to do construction and yard work over an extended period of time to the neglect of their gospel preaching. Dan had also heard some things concerning misconduct and irregularities related to the ministry office that greatly upset him, and he had serious concerns as we did for the Lord’s recovery. At one point he told me that he considered to resign from the work and to leave. We confirmed his feeling that the situation was indeed serious. - J. Ingalls, from his book - Steve Isitt speaking This dear brother, Dan Towle, one of the original Concerned Brothers, had much to be concerned about. He, Minoru, Dick Taylor, Francis all had serious concerns. These were Concerned Brothers till denial set in, and they then marched on. Francis told Dan Leslie and I at lunch together in 1990 that he almost didn’t make it through the turmoil. Francis' wife’s two sisters did not make it. (I was in the area for a personal matter, and ended up staying with Francis, after attending a church meeting one night. I knew Dan a little from Seattle, brothers' house.) John Ingalls speaking: The Thanksgiving weekend was coming up, and there was to be a young people’s conference in the mountains. This was brought up for fellowship, and the question arose concerning who should go to lead the young people. We learned then that one of the trainers from Taiwan had already been encouraged through those [Philip Lee -ed] serving in the LSM office to come, and in fact he was preparing to come. Most all of the brothers felt strongly and expressed clearly their disagreement with that arrangement, based upon the damage wrought by the high school training in Irving, Texas, in which this particular trainer [Philip Lee -ed] had a prominent role. The elders asked two brothers among them to telephone this trainer in Taiwan to inform him of the brothers’ feeling that someone else should lead the young people in the coming conference. They did so immediately. It was indeed a shock to the brother in Taiwan. It also was a blow to Philip Lee, who presumed to be directing these affairs. The elders also agreed that for the rest of the saints it would be profitable to come together on Thanksgiving weekend to share some things concerning Christ, the Spirit, life, and the church. All the elders would share the same burden. A few days before the conference was to start Philip Lee met with the full-timers and told them they had no business attending that conference; they should take care of their new ones. It was clear that Philip was absolutely unhappy with our conference. We felt rather that it was most appropriate for the full-timers to bring their new ones to the conference if they were so led. This is the kind of situation we faced. A few days after the conference, Benson Phillips came to Anaheim from Taiwan and met with the full-timers. Philip Lee, Dan Towle, and Dan Leslie were also present (the latter two had been attempting with difficulty to lead the full-timers in service). Through Benson’s fellowship the leadership of Dan Towle and Dan Leslie with the full-timers was officially terminated, and the full-timers were left under the direction of the LSM office. This was a blow to the two Dans. The full-timers were left in confusion and serious questions were raised in some of them. A few days later Benson desired to meet with some of the elders representing churches in the area. A lunch was arranged in a nearby restaurant to be followed by fellowship. Present at the meeting were Benson, Dan Towle, Dan Leslie, Ken Unger, Ned Nossaman, Dick Taylor, Frank Scavo, Godfred Otuteye, Al Knoch, and John Ingalls. During the fellowship the brothers began to question Benson concerning current events with the full-timers and the Living Stream Office and the prospects for the church’s relationship with the full-timers. The involvement of the LSM office and its management was a real concern. Benson found it very difficult to answer the brothers’ questions and was alarmed at the attitude of the brothers toward the LSM office. He remarked that the atmosphere in Orange County had changed, and he was bothered. We also were greatly bothered. www.BrotherDanTowle.com |
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#36 | |
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#37 | |
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All of which reminds me to be civil when I disagree with this kind of business going on in the church. If I am continually boiling over with indignation what does that say of me? Where is my own equanimity? Where is the expression of my own inner sense of peace?
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#38 | |
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I think the most effective means to uncover exclusive systems is to expose their hypocrisy. This is exactly what Jesus Himself did when confronting all the Jewish leaders of His day. Legalism, as a rule, always produces a system of man-pleasers who hide their true nature "out in public." They create rules they themselves cannot keep, and so they live a life of pretense. Witness Lee, with the assistance of a continual cadre of blind sycophants, was able to maintain a mirage of holiness before all the LC's. He could never do it by himself. The inherent problem is that no leader can predict just how loyal his followers will be. Each man has his own "red line" when it comes to corruption. As I have studied the history of the Recovery, it became obvious that each so-called "storm" or "rebellion" actually was certain leaders reacting to Lee's infringement on their own "red line." This caused some to speak their conscience in protest. Each of them had at one time loved the ministry of Witness Lee, yet his hypocrisy got exposed for them to see, and like a house of cards, it all seemed to suddenly crash. This explains why so many dear brothers seemed to get "poisoned" and change overnight. The bubble popped, and the lights got turned on. All the hypocrisy was laid bare. Since none of it was ever dealt with properly, one whiff of the heaping pile of stench was all it took.
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#39 | |
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#40 | |
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1. Witness Lee is the undisputed and unchallengeable authority. Since his death his writing and it's official interpreters/LSM senior management are this authority. 2. They are the only true legitimate church in God's eyes. The only place you can be sanctified, blessed, etc. They are Jerusalem so if you leave you only have one of two places to go: Egypt (the world) or Babylon (Christianity). #1 allowed Witness Lee to do and teach whatever he wanted without recourse. This included having his abusive son run LSM with authority over elders, coworkers, full timers, etc. #2 keeps you trapped in the system regardless of what Witness Lee said or did and this now extends to the BB. Once a person realizes Witness Lee was just another flawed teacher who's writings are nothing but mere commentary and the LC system is just another church among many the mental shackles begin to fall away. The construct cannot remain intact without this foundation. Some who get free from this bondage may still stay in the LC system for various reasons but they are awake to the realities of the situation. They just laugh or roll their eyes when they hear anything about the MOTA, the LC being the only church, etc. |
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#41 | |
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Soon things changed, and the brother moved back to the GLA. Cleveland leaders caught wind of his arrival, and did their best to usher him back into the fold. He happened to mention to the Cleveland elders how the LC out west reacted to his honest endeavor to fellowship there. The Cleveland elders thought it was the funniest thing they ever heard, "you went to those elders and told them how dead they were." ![]() Then my friend made his simple case to them ...
Thus we have a closed and fortified stronghold in the Recovery, completely insulated from the living God and His word of life, unhelpable and unaccountable. These brothers have no opportunity to get any spiritual help. The irony is that the same impenetrable fortress surrounds Cleveland and their satellite LC's. Just try and fellowship with them. I tried, as did many others.
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Below are two very interesting quotes by Brother Lee.
''I have heard that some brothers notice things happening that are not right, but they dare not say anything. To avoid getting involved, they stay silent and let the suffering go on. To do this is to play politics. This is what some of you have been practicing. Dear brothers, change your mind. Repent. Let us have no more such thing.''Practical Talks to Elders No. 2 - Feb 14, 1983 - pg 23, Witness Lee - Living Stream Ministry) "Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble. If someone claims to be for the ministry and yet goes about stealing and deceiving, we need to fulfill our function as policemen by checking him out according to the truth... If we see evil deeds but do not function as policemen, then we are not practicing the truth... Someone has even said that we should care only for the Spirit, not for principles. How subtle! ...If we all had practiced the truth, certain sayings and practices would have been questioned a long time ago." (Witness Lee - Truth Messages - Chapter 1, Section 2 - Living Stream Ministry) www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us |
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#43 | |
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In how the police were "owned" by the ones who needed policing? ("I own you coppa!") Someone needs to ask people like John Ingalls, and even the creator of this thread . . . "How's that working for ya?" The fact that Lee ever said these things looks more and more like a ruse every day. It is the right thing to say. And when you have them under your spell, you can turn it on everyone else and avert the attention from the need to police the speaker. Yes. Lee said those things. But he also made it clear that it did not apply to him. I know. He did say it applied to him when he had the meetings to "expose" Max R. But it was later denied as being applicable to him.
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And this is the person on whose words we hung so lovingly (and many still do). A man who used truth to perpetuate lies.
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#47 | |
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In application this simply meant and still means if someone is not gung-ho for his ministry and his LSM and question it in anyway they are committing a "crime". Therefore we should all be alert and rise up to police these criminals on behalf of Witness Lee. |
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#48 | |
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#50 | |
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Yes, as brother Sherman told brother Steve a little more than a decade ago, it takes a special calling to be in the recovery. Meaning you can be a general Christian and if you are not 100% absolute for the ministry, you aren't going to make it. The statement comes across as exclusive. An analogy; many can join the army, but very few can make the cut in Special Forces. |
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#51 | |
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In the case of the "young Galileans" flow he wanted a base audience and support for his new "Ministry Station" set up in Anaheim. What better way to start churches throughout Orange County from scratch than to convince young people from all over the country to move there? Voila! Insta-churches in Fullerton, Irvine, Cypress, Costa Mesa, etc. all flocking to Anaheim to hear him speak week after week. And conveniently positioned to provide hospitality for his 10 ten trainings, conferences, etc. But of course if you do this elders and coworkers will get upset because suddenly the young people leave enmasse for Orange County and your local young people's work is decimated. No problem...let Max Rapoport take the heat! This alone won't be enough to oust Rapoport but it will definitely get the wheels rolling. Now all that needs to happen is a confrontation with Philip Lee over his immoral behavior in LSM. Throw in an accusation that Sandy Rapoport is part of some so-called "sister's rebellion". Add in some grumbling coworkers who think Rapoport is nothing but a two-bit upstart who isn't "spiritual" enough for their tastes. And there ya go! All the ingredients necessary for kicking Rapoport and his family to the curb - and I mean that in the literal sense of word. |
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http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...sReporting.pdf
Ron, the brother you refer to lives near you. Why don’t you go to visit him? He would welcome you and genuine mutual fellowship would ensue over serious matters that divide. He and other brothers are open for such mending fellowship. Are you willing? Here is a problem, the unwillingness to begin meaningful dialogue and pursue oneness in the Body. And, here we see why there is a need for brothers to come together: Ron acts like there was no ground for brothers to be seriously concerned about Brother Lee, as we see Brother Lee in those days deflecting matters of right and wrong. He said, “most people pay attention to the matter of being right or wrong. However, in today’s situation it is not a matter of right or wrong; it is a matter of whether we are divisive or not”. Brother Lee practiced deflecting matters of right and wrong and Ron Kangas has done the same, while both displaced blame onto others, discrediting them publicly, and waxing disingenuous in their reporting on “whether we are divisive or not”. |
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#54 | |
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The result I have and others have seen for years, brothers and sisters in some localities are aging, but with little or no increase. That's because due to coming together for the sake of a ministry, the mode of receiving and accommodating fellow believers has become narrower than God's receiving. You could try to be received, but if your sharing is strictly from the Bible instead of Holy Word for Morning Revival, you might be quarantined. |
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#55 |
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Quotes from letter by coworker Bill Mallon to Witness Lee 10+ years after Max Rapoport got the boot:
"For example, Benson and Ray, as well as others, promoted Philip Lee, proclaiming everywhere that Philip is Witness Lee's closest co worker, that Brother Lee has no one with as much wisdom, energy, and insight as Philip Lee, that Philip is Brother Lee's choice regardless of his anger and abuse of the saints, that everyone must submit and contact Philip Lee and/or the office,,,I have suffered a great dilemma over this matter of speaking with you about the affairs surrounding the office [LSM]...What compounded the problem and prevented me from coming to you is that Philip, being your very own son, was positioned into a very prominent place of the work. A message you gave in Anaheim, on April 18, 1983, entitled PRACTICAL TALKS TO THE ELDERS # 6 "Avoiding Family Entanglements": Here you testified that Watchman Nee never brought his relatives into the church leadership or into the work. I can now see the wisdom of this, because in your case, I say this kindly, to have Philip established into such a prominent place of the work has frustrated and hindered transparent fellowship between you and the workers as well as between you and the churches...Since Philip was now so intricately involved with the work..." Witness Lee's public and published response to Bill Mallon: ”All these are groundless, unprovable, perverted, and slanderous accusations...Bill's letter did not express his concerns in the proper way of fellowship. Rather, it conveyed many items that were based either on rumors, gossip, or misunderstandings, with a tone of accusation”... Bill Mallon on the result of Witness Lee's response: "I would like to make one point clear. I had never left the recovery, and had never intended to do so. But in 1990, after receiving notice of the “excommunication”, after receiving the Fermentation book, and after the brothers in Miami served me notice of no longer supporting me and my housing, I was forced to leave." |
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#56 | |
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This kind of speaking is so far from both the letter and the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ that it can only emerge from, and reveal, an organizational entity having its own continued survival as its goal. It has nothing to do with the kingdom of God. I am thankful that I didn't end up in Guyana drinking Kool-Aid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones or hanging out with Marshall Applewhite, waiting for Jesus to surf in on the Halle-Bopp comet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven'...eligious_group) Clearly I could have fallen for anything if I was one of those sitting there, unquestioning, as this kind of 'ministry' passed in front of my face. I am very glad; it could have been much worse. God is merciful.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#57 | |
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They knew he didn't have the character to be a coworker but promoted him anyway and expected blind allegiance and submission to him and of course his dad. And depending how you measure things their brown nosing behavior towards the Lee family paid off. Look who's running the LC/LSM system today! |
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#58 |
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IMHO here is why the LSM employees will never reconcile with coworkers like John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, etc. These coworkers have spiritual heft with real ministries and the LSM employees don't. They are spiritual lightweights who go around like tape recorders repeating another man's ministry. So do they want men like Ingalls, Mallon etc. around? Men who will challenge them and not say "amen" after every word they utter or every idea they come up with? Men who will not "submit" to them? Of course they don't! Just like Witness Lee didn't like having TAS, etc. around.
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#59 | |
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#60 |
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"I would just add this: In 1988 certain co-workers
severely criticized Brother Lee, and then they separated themselves, they went their own way. One of these brothers, in particular, his whole situation is tragic. I would like to ask him (Bill Mallon), after you wrote that letter to Brother Lee, and after you began to speak a certain way, what is your spiritual situation? How would you compare it with your situation when you were in Elden Hall? " There are many like Bill that fits this mold. However many of the co-workers, elders, and deacons may say "I wonder how _____ is doing". Not a finger is lifted to go visit, to pick up the telephone etc. There is a permeating attitude that you as the one formerly meeting with us have to come to us. "We are right here." I am not making these words up. These are phrases and paraphrases I have heard with my ears. If the brothers had the heart of a shepherd and not the heart of a hireling, they would go to these former leading brothers with a spiritual mind towards reconciliation. |
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#61 | |
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Back in the 1970's - 1980's, through conferences and trainings, I had been introduced to John Ingalls, John So, and Bill Mallon and their ministry to the churches. None of these three brothers lived in my region of LC's, so admittedly my contact with them was minimal. Each of these ministers for many years had spoken highly of Witness Lee. But something had changed. A storm had battered the Recovery. It was called the most serious of all rebellions. These actors were all accused of leprosy. Our region was minimally affected, kind of like a hurricane which batters the southern coast, but merely leaves our area all wet. Witness Lee, with the endorsements of Titus Chu, had convinced us in the Great Lakes area LC's that his version of events back in the early 1990's was the accurate one. When these accounts were printed, I carefully read Lee's Fermentation... , Yu's Affirmation... , and Kangas' Response.... With the absence of any contradictory accounts, I accepted them as the truthful account of events. Unfortunately for LSM, the internet was now making available, in the privacy of one's home computer, the original accounts of these same brothers quarantined by LSM. Not only theirs, but numerous other accounts were being posted on forums, like Jane Anderson's account of abuse at the hands of LSM president Benson Philips. I challenge all readers to compare LSM's version of events with that of other eye-witnesses. Our legal system requires all jurors to likewise ascertain the facts. In his letters, especially 2 Corinthians, the Apostle Paul asks the same of the saints, challenging them to examine the facts, and to "test all things." We as believers are never commanded to follow a man blindly, which is what the LSM has basically always demandad.
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#62 | |
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Bill Mallon did not separate himself - he was kicked to the curb. And who said his situation was tragic? He had the same personal challenges while inside and outside the LC system (like everyone else does). But for Kangas to ask him to compare his spiritual situation post LC system with Elden Hall is really beyond the pale in terms of deceit! How about asking a more honest and relevant question: "What is your spiritual situation? How would you compare it with your situation from 1988-1990 in the LC?" |
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#63 | |
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#64 | |
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#65 | |
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#66 | |
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My sad plight caused me to rehearse the deception I have endured in the Recovery. For many years I believed so many promises and assurances from LC ministers. Some of it went contrary to all my best judgment. With today's 20-20 hindsight it all looks so obvious, but not then. I trusted all the ones I was with, and believed what they told me. Thus I was convinced, that though I was not the brightest light on the tree, all the others around me could not also be deceived. I was also banking on their better judgment. I suppose that being deceived by a friend is not the worst experience in life. Wasn't our Lord deceived by an old friend with a kiss? I know He is a better judge of character than I am. Perhaps the best consolation is knowing that we are in the Father's hands, and that nothing happens to us without His consent. That truth was good enough for the Lord, and so it's good enough for me too.
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#67 | |
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You are not alone in having been taken or deceived. I too have been deceived by people who I trusted or fell for their sad but hopeful stories. So have a lot of people here and even people in the secular world. Think of all the people who have been scammed by the Ponzie schemes of the Bernie Madoffs !! The difference between us and "them" is too many times we trust our spiritual leaders more than the Holy Spirit and the Word of God in us. When we are let down by our spiritual leaders, it creates conflict in our faith. When I got saved I learned but did not understand what it was to walk in Spirit, to live by the Spirit. Heck I did not know I had a spirit in my being until I got saved in the LC. I wonder if those of you who were saved prior to coming under Lee's ministry knew you had a spirit? It is scriptural and the more we read and study our bibles, the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of our understanding to the Spirit realm. What I don't get ![]() I am sorry you were scammed. I am sorry I too have been scammed against my better judgment. I am sorry so many of us have been scammed. Nevertheless we can rest assured our GOD, our LOVING GOD will never scam us !! Blessings, Carol
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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#68 | |
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It's naive to think that we alone in the Recovery were deceived. Who on earth has never been duped? Why should we think any less of ourselves, when Jesus our Lord Himself was deceived and betrayed by a kiss. He once spent the whole night praying, and then He still chose Judas! Since the time the Serpent questioned Eve in the garden, deception has been the lot of all mankind. Being deceived should never cause us to lose heart or question our faith in God. It is a natural occurrence of man, allowed by God, that we might trust in our Heavenly Father more closely, since He alone is true and faithful. (Romans 3.4) It is absolutely arrogant for LC leaders to think they have never hurt or damaged their people. Only the same spirit of pride that occupied the Pharisees of old would cause them to think thus. Look at the long trail of former members crying out for reconciliation and justice. Voices are coming from every direction to the leaders of LSM, yet they would not even provide the courtesy of answering the phone. They will spend hours and days and weeks writing tracts, smearing reputations, and threatening lawsuits, yet would not spend five minutes to hear what former members have to say.
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#69 |
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TEMPLATE FOR RECEIVING OTHERS
http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...Scriptures.pdf In Aug 2001 I was reading in the New Testament and comparing the apostles' care for the churches to the commotion and atmosphere created in the Local Churches by the new way movement. Then I began to write, not knowing where that would lead, and In the Wake of the New Way came out. A template for receiving others is found in part 2, Love and One Accord... Paper in the Wind - 1988 A current elder in Redding, Dick Ingram, formerly an elder in Tempe, told me by phone that once he was helping a 24-year old brother in Tempe who was troubled by matters in the late eighties turmoil and that he was doing everything he could to help this young brother, even to the extent that Dick called Brother Lee for fellowship. Brother Lee’s fellowship was for him to let this troubled one go as “a paper in the wind” and “let the wind take care of him”! What Christ Has Received Rom 15:7 -- “Wherefore, receive one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.” “This verse, when taken along with 14:3, proves that Christ’s receiving is God’s receiving. What Christ has received, God has received. Christ has received us to the glory of God. Our receiving of the believers must be according to God’s and Christ’s receiving, not according to anything else. Whomever God and Christ has received we have to receive, regardless of how much they differ from us in doctrinal concepts or religious practices. This is for the glory of God.” W. Lee |
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#70 | |
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But as Bill Mallon indicated he never wanted to leave the LC system. He naively thought he could fellowship his very legit concerns and Witness Lee would take him seriously. After all they had worked together for 25+ years. Instead, true to form, Lee threw him under the bus. And this is also a constructive example of how Witness Lee controlled the churches contrary to his false statements that he never did. Why would Bill Mallon fellowshipping with Witness Lee about some issues in "the work" cause The Church in Miami to kick him to the curb? What does his relationship with Witness Lee, his son Philip and their publishing company have to do with his relationship with the church locally? |
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#71 | |
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But you look at statements like RK mocking people who "want to be workers" and it flies in the face of everything Jesus taught and stood for. It is fully in accord with building up RK's organization: i.e. getting "workers" who are "fully in one accord" [with Headquarters]. But it is completely against the dictum of Jesus to be nothing in this age if you want to be something in His kingdom, and that of the Father. And it (deliberately, I argue) ignores the idea that to do "these things to the least of these My brothers" is to serve Jesus himself. Instead they fixate on "good building material" for the organization's progress. I missed the Elden Hall days but they were a mainstay of every meeting, even if you didn't overtly mention them. Because we were hollering and yelling and waving our arms to recreate the "Spirit of Elden Hall", when that Spirit had long since passed. Witness Lee's many "flows" - door knocking, vital groups, and so forth, were all vain exercises to create replicas of something - the Spirit of God - which had long since moved on. It's like a bunch of aging hippies reminiscing about Woodstock. Instead of living in the now, they all tell each other what "peace, love, and happiness" used to be like. The Christ-centered life is always new. The church-centered life quickly becomes a museum to whatever "glory days" you once experienced. Meanwhile the glory is abiding somewhere else.
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#72 | |
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One of the biggest con jobs in the Recovery concerned Elden Hall. WL continually reported that the entire blessing was due to one reason -- the saints were "absolutely one" with him and his ministry. Ones who were there always disputed that report -- firstly that whatever blessing was there was of the Lord during the Jesus people movement, and secondly that as Witness Lee slowly took over the ministry, the life and anointing in the meetings slowly vanished. That distorted account of history was ever used to manipulate LC membership into absolute loyalty to a man. Most of those in the Recovery today were never at Elden Hall, but they still are praying for the time when all the saints would be "absolutely one" with the ministry of Witness Lee, and then all the blessings of God would return to them. How else can they explain the continued loss of membership and staleness of the meetings?
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#73 |
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Bill’s experience in the church paralleled John So’s in Europe and John Ingalls’ in Southern California, as these brothers also got nowhere in fellowship with Brother Lee about their desperate concerns. All three brothers were subsequently condemned in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion by Witness Lee and their former fellow co-workers in a one-sided account of what had occurred in the previous four years; and, they were “quarantined” in the recovery with no accounts given of their sufferings with Witness Lee and his Living Stream representatives. Their reaction to the interferences, manipulations, and usurpations of LSM became known as “the rebellion”. They themselves became known as “the rebellious ones” and “ring leaders of a conspiracy”. The truthfulness of the “rebellion”, however, cannot be found in official LSM publications on local church history, for it is not in the interests of LSM or according to their agenda to print the truth.
Yet, it has been adequately and faithfully recorded by others. Praise the Lord for this! (from Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery) “most people pay attention to the matter of being right or wrong. However, in today’s situation it is not a matter of right or wrong; it is a matter of whether we are divisive or not”. W. Lee, Elders' Training, Book 10,1989-1991 material) |
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#74 |
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One of the signs of lawlessness with LSM and the LC saints is their strong propensity to speak things they know little about. The “Fermentation” book comes out; people receive the “official” teaching about “rebellious ones” and get frequent-enough reminders from the “pulpit” about “those rebellious ones” and for the last 20 years word just keeps going out, unchecked, from so many mouths. Such lawless speaking is epidemic in the local Churches, and it’s called bearing false witness.
I was at a brother’s home recently (2010) for his 50th birthday and two long-time LC brothers came in, fresh from Ron Kangas’ meetings on the cross from the previous weekend. It is interesting that these two brothers, an elder at that time, now retired, were on the “scene” with me through home meeting involvement when I was cut loose from that home meeting and went into discipline mode in the church. Now after ten years of initiating no contact with me, they appear in a home with me, the same two brothers who “saw me leave”, and within minutes I am charged with being bitter and being proud and that my opinion needs to be dealt with, that I need to get rid of my “slanderous websites”; and references were made to “those rebellious ones”. Goodness, these brothers, loving as they were, they just hear the things and then pass them on. This is how it goes, from one person to another for ten years concerning my case, no one knowing what they are talking about. At least one of the brothers at the party, after I was able to share with him a bit, sat back and stopped his mouth from any more flurry of charges against me, and said, “I don’t know; I just don’t know.” The other brother, the former elder, also was more subdued and both admitted after our hour-long talk and much positive fellowship, that I certainly was not bitter. I was even invited by them to meet in a nearby Local Church outside Bellevue. I have had several encounters similar to this with well-intentioned brothers, who lacked knowledge and understanding. These brothers had encouraged me to listen to Ron’s tapes and I did over the next couple of days. I heard his strong word on the need for everyone to take the cross to their self and have their mouths stopped, except for him: He had spoken lawlessly in Ecuador, announcing that “Steve Isitt is one of the most evil speakers on the internet. He is a man of death.” He has not retracted this false and defamatory statement. Sherman Robertson, Bellevue elder, passes on to others that I have “slanderous websites”, among other things. Both of these men need to have their mouths stopped. They are quite foolish and in great error to talk about me in this way and never back up what they say with sound documentation to show that I am an “evil speaker, a slanderous speaker, and a lawless speaker on the internet. By contrast, I have gone through three books by prominent Local Church leaders point by point to show their own evil, slander, and lawless speaking in their reckless abandon to an agenda and movement away from the truth. I hope that Ron, as the chief editor at LSM, will seriously consider these three evil, slanderous, and lawless books at LSM and tend to their destruction. Found in www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRecovery.us under Books. |
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#75 | |
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This ignores that around WL's Recovery were similar instances in the Jesus Movement, too numerous to count here. Simply look at Chuck Smith and the Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa as an example. Explosive growth, continuous "manifestations of blessing" and so forth. So when the "blessing left" us we were repeatedly exhorted to follow even more closely the supposed minister of the age WL. Only he could restore the glory days, and lead us to the last revival which would end human history. I remember a meeting where WL castigated us for our "deadness" and threatened to quit speaking. We all cried out with pain and fear. This shows what happens when the focus turns from Jesus to the church, and from the church to a ministry. And we subsequently can see the trampling of "co-workers" like T.A. Sparks, B. Mallon, J. Ingalls, J. So, J.C. Anderson, M. Rappoport and any others who couldn't themselves up adequately with "the apostle". And I didn't cite Jim Jones' church earlier as a wild and irrelevant notion. Jones began as a Midwest Methodist preacher who began deriding Christianity, and moved to California. Lot's of young, "open" people there, looking for something new. Here is a quote from Wikipedia: "Within five years of the Temple's move to California, it went through a period of exponential growth and opened branches in cities including San Fernando, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. By the early 1970s, Jones began shifting his focus to major cities... He eventually moved the headquarters for the Temple to San Francisco... The move led to Jones and the Temple becoming politically influential in San Francisco politics, culminating in the Temple's instrumental role in the mayoral election victory of George Moscone in 1975. Moscone subsequently appointed Jones as the chairman of the San Francisco Housing Authority Commission." A lot of people have claimed "blessing" over the years. But if your focus turns from Jesus to the church, you are in the wrong place. The guy standing up front may not be named Jim Jones or Marshall Applewhite, but you are still in the wrong place. Those anti-cult books of the late '70s don't look so paranoid to me any more.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#76 | |
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In all of this frantic activity Jesus recedes until He is frozen in the background like one of those carved images in the Roman Catholic cathedrals.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#77 |
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LSM's doctrine of "taking the cross" is unscriptural. The Bible teaches us to be obedient to God's commandments and to live according to the Holy Spirit. It doesn't emphasize "taking the cross" in the way LSM means it. In one place Jesus did tell us to "take up our cross and follow him." But this was his telling us that true obedience would sometimes lead us to discomfort and even pain and death.
LSM's version of "taking the cross" is simply one more tool they use to keep people's mouths shut and maintain order. The fact is true obedience and walking in the Spirit sometimes demand that we speak and not be silent. But in LSM's twisted, tightly-spinning world, "taking the cross" always means shutting up. Jesus was silent going to the cross because the time had come for him to suffer for redemption. At that point there was nothing for him to say, the cup had being given to him, and the Jews and Romans couldn't do anything for him, and wouldn't listen anyway. But before that, Jesus often rebuked the halls of power with fervor, as did many prophets before him, as Steve is doing now. Kangas is trying to shut people up with his "taking the cross" teaching. One might think he would apply the teaching to himself and shut himself up occasionally. But, alas, apparently he and his cohorts get to speak out when they see what they consider "unrighteousness" or "death," but no one else does. Neat trick. These guys have gotten so far out in the weeds it has become silly. |
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#78 |
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#79 | |
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None of us was thoughtful or courageous enough to inquire whether our "deadness" had anything to do with Witness Lee in the first place. We were doing everything he commanded, clinging to his every word, and he then had the audacity to blame us, calling us Laodicea, and then threaten not to speak any more? Someone should have immediately stood up to whistle his approval! What a scene that would have been.
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#80 | |
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The second scene was some time later, when we had not sufficiently endured in the Anaheim-mandated vitality, and a very cross WL gave a message in which he said that we all were dead, dormant, stagnant, etc, and threatened to "cut us off". What a cry we raised when the elder shut off the video -- Ohio's "addiction" metaphor is apt -- we were like druggies at the methadone clinic whose future supply was in doubt. "Whatever will we do? No fresh speaking from Witness Lee?" Oh, the declarations of repentance and fealty that loudly filled that meeting hall! Not to God in heaven, or to the sent Spirit of His resurrected Christ, but rather to the latest speaking from Anaheim. We would do anything, anything, if only WL's ministry would remain open and available to us.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#81 |
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#82 |
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I was going to correct you and say, "No; we are living stones", but then I remembered WL saying that we all had to be "absolutely identical, with no differences whatsoever", and so I decided that maybe your comment is pretty accurate.
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#83 | |
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#84 |
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awareness was reminiscing his early days in the churchlife, about the time when PF came out with The Wall.
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#85 | |
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#86 |
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http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...sTestimony.pdf
Gene Gruhler made several mistakes in his testimony in Fermentation. His disadvantage in seeing and knowing matters clearly was that he was not in the church in Anaheim; he was far away in Denver, Colorado. He supposed he knew what he was talking about even though he was not standing where John Ingalls, Al Knoch, and Godfred Otuteye were standing, and was not in their shoes. Therefore, his paradigm was off when he spoke. The whole book, in fact, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, is based on a wrong paradigm and superficial observation, which is why it careens off course early and follows an imaginary track of building a case about a conspiracy. |
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#87 |
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Ron Kangas in Ecuador
"Well, we don’t have to go in the direction of chaos. We can move in the direction of economy. Regarding discernment, now that we have the internet as everybody knows, emails go out day and night. And, usually the negative persons and the evil persons are more active than the positive ones. One of the most evil of these persons, his name is Steve Isitt. He is a man of death. And, he is very active in a negative way. And there are many others". Ron Kangas regarding brother Dong "control", and now the "chaos" created by independent workers and on-line posters "...What is going to be the future in this part of S. America. Will we go from control to chaos? Or from control to normality?" R. K. What is Normality, Ron? Has LSM ever behaved in a normal way? PROOF OF DIVISION? http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...ofDivision.pdf Steve Isitt speaking: "Leaders who remained in the recovery thought the leaders who “left the recovery” caused division by forsaking the proper ground of meeting and establishing their own meetings apart from the fellowship of the local churches. (FPR, p. 72-73) "The former leading ones, however, thought that the Scriptural ground of meeting had been usurped and replaced by Witness Lee, his ministry, and his ministry office, and that since this was the case, the local churches were no longer on the proper ground of oneness and were responsible for causing division themselves. |
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#88 | |
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Gene shared this in a meeting, and WL said, "That's not building". Then WL went on to share "his" vision. My question is this: why was only WL's version of events the official version? Why was GG not allowed to think, or be inspired by the Holy Spirit? Why only one man can think and speak in the church? GG shared this story as a preface to how "low" his (and everyone else's) ideas were, and how "high" WL's ideas were. I say nonsense. WL's ideas were like yours and mine. Some of them had merit, some less so. But the notion (which GG was advancing) that only WL's ideas were worth holding onto and holding forth in the assembly of the faithful, was completely against the grain of the whole scriptural lesson we see in the Bible. "He who elevates himself in the assembly above his/her peers will be pushed back down by God." This theme is constant, it is consistent throughout the scriptures, it was stressed by Jesus as a cornerstone of His teaching, and WL thought that it applied to everyone but himself. And it created a back door for those who wanted to elevate themselves: by abnegating themselves to and by elevating "the rich ministry of WL" they also rose in the assembly. The higher and louder you cheered the minsitry of WL, the higher you got in "the church". Awareness' quote is quite suggestive, actually.
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#89 | |
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I do know that i was in the same system for some time, and I here have tried to assess my time in that system. I got saved in church, I met constantly in church, I began meeting with GG's local churches because I liked how active they were. And when I left the local church of Lee I began meeting again with "christianity". So I know a little about church. In the beginning, when I arrived in the local churches, everyone could stand up and minister whatever the Lord had spoken to them that week. We talked about our failures with our families, our children, at work, in our attitudes. We talked about the Lord's inspiration and move through us in the world. We talked about those who were around us, crying for help and guidance. We talked about God's mercy rescuing us again and again; His comfort, love, and His revelation of His glory as seen in His Holy Word. In it all, Jesus Christ our Lord, the Lord of all, was the constant beacon of light shining forth. Over time we began to become "ministry stations". The focus shifted. On the Lord's Day morning we would have some prayers and songs to the Lord Jesus, then we would eat the bread and drink the wine, sing a song to the Father, then we would get on to the real business. The ministry meeting. We all had to be one with the latest speaking out of Anaheim. So the Lord Jesus got maybe 40 minutes out of our busy week, then it was on to the ministry. How to get "material" (college students) for the "building of the Body" (to join the organization)? I think GG and many others were trying to function as best they could in a trying and less than optimal situation. Perhaps his conscience is less bothered by his experiences than yours and mine; who knows? I hope that I have not unjustly judged him nor any others. I don't know any of them personally, and even if I did I suppose I wouldn't know them well. But the system of which they and I were a part I consider myself qualified to write at least a few words. And so I have tried. But if GG "didn't know what was really going on", then I would have to say Amen; me too. May the Lord have mercy on us all. "Blessed is he who shows mercy; on him the Father also will show mercy"
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#90 |
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I think it's interesting that Kangas chose to call Steve Isitt a "man of death." Why didn't he call him a "man of sin?" Because if he did that he'd have to specify his sin, and he can't do it because there is none.
What, exactly, is Steve doing wrong? As aron said, who said WL, or RK, or anyone else are the only ones authorized to speak? Steve is speaking as a prophet according to his conscience. He claims seem reasonable and well-thought-out. Kangas is obligated to take them seriously and address another Body member's concerns with respect. He has no right to act as if he is above reproof. What is so troubling about Kangas and other Recovery officials is how they are seemingly devoid of genuine Christian humility. But by categorizing Steve (and those here for that matter) as sources of "death," the accusation becomes nebulous, feel-oriented and arbitrary. It's simply mud-slinging. Drop the vague "death" language, Ron Kangas, and specify Steve's sin. Then we can discuss it as the Body. My money is on the fact that you can't specify a sin, and would lose any discussion about one if you did. That is why you are resorting to feeble "death" claims. |
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#91 | |
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Video: Another Brick in the Wall The classroom scene in the video between 1:00 minute and 1:30 minute, with the harsh discipline "absolute rubbish laddie," is quite suggestive, as you said. awareness has mentioned on occasion the treatment he received from "headmaster" Mel Porter in Florida. As one who was educated by old-school convent nuns at my local parish, I could always relate with this video. One time in 7th grade, for whatever reason, I was covering my text book in class with a brown paper bag. As a young student I was easily bored, but at that time, I never thought I was doing anything wrong, especially since I wasn't talking to others, and disrupting the class. That old nun, who looked just like the wicked witch of the west, just exploded all over me. My right arm had welts up and down from her tirade. Thankfully I remained silent and motionless during the beating, probably thinking that it will only get worse if my dad got wind of it.
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#92 | |
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Then changes were orchestrated by headquarters. We were regularly informed about how so many of these personal testimonies were simply "sea stories." None of us felt that way. I thought they were all great. Oh sure, some members had limited speaking skills, but with such a eager audience, everyone felt cherished. On my own, being so self-conscious, I would never have stood to give a testimony, but the Spirit within me could not be restrained! We were receiving encouragement and practical learning from one another, which I suppose was the problem. Brothers and sisters helping one another in the faith -- pretty dangerous stuff. To the bureaucrats, that is. During conferences and trainings, both Witness Lee and Titus Chu henceforth demanded that we rehearse their messages during the testimony time. Personal testimonies, for the most part, were done away with, except, of course, those who got to give the messages. Thus we slowly settled into the drone of rehashing and regurgitating the messages of others. Lee moved on from the Life-Study period to the Crystalization-Study which I never felt had much anointing at all. Head knowledge, yes, anointing Spirit, no. Then PSRP was introduced from Taiwan to prop up those dead doctrines, but the excitement of every new program was quickly fleeting.
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#93 | |
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Did I miss anything?
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#94 | |
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Which is why Ron cannot specify Steve's sin only to call Steve a man of death. Physiologically we are all men of death including brother Ron. It's a statement of our own mortality. However the tone Ron is speaking with is meant to disparage, to slander, and to defame. How many brothers from North America attended that conference in Ambato, Ecuador? The brothers in attendance bear repsonsibility to for allowing the lawless speaking to go unhindered. |
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#95 | |
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I was in another SoCal locality, but Gene was always the brother leading the Southern California young people's conferences I had attended in the early-mid 1980's. If Gene was in Anaheim throughout the 80's, it does not appear he was an appointed elder. Thus possibly not privy to the fellowship Dick Taylor, Dan Towle and other Orange County elders were included in on. |
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#96 | ||
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Witness Lee made a big deal about "death" by spiritualizing certain Levitical ordinances about touching dead bodies. None of the apostles had done such a thing, but that is besides the point. Like his use of "leprosy" and the "replastering of houses" in Leviticus for all those branded rebels, Lee was able to contrive teachings whenever needed to protect himself from being accountable. It was like Lee was telling us, "you may think I have sinned, but if you say a thing, then you will be dead, and that's far worse." The result is to hold the saints in fear and to negate the feelings of their conscience. How powerful and controlling is that? Our conscience is trained by God's word to be sensitive to sin, the violation of God's commands. Lee successfully established an alternate standard which bypassed the consciousness of identifiable sin, and introduced the new standard of "death" which only he could identify and use, when necessary, to divert attention from sin within his ministry to death within his accusers. Thus, until this date, no one at LSM has ever negated a single statement made by Steve Isitt. If they did, calling it a lie and him a liar, then they would have to address the facts of the case, something they dare not do. The actual facts of history are what LSM fears the most. Thus, by categorizing all that Isitt has written as "death," and labeling him a "man of death," they strike fear in all their members without following any of the New Testament prescriptions for addressing sin, or a sinful brother.
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#97 | |
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The whole death v. life thing is another handy tool of deception used by Witness Lee and now LSM employees to divert attention away from their own behavior and history. "Pay attention to life not right and wrong" etc are catch-all phrases designed to stop those with legit concerns in their tracks. It gives those doing wrong or covering up wrong a license to do whatever they want without recourse. Discussing "the facts of the case" requires a certain amount of objectivity. The subtlety of the death v. life tool of deception is switching everything into the realm of subjectivity with a nary a concern for the facts. "How do you feel when you read or talk about what took place in the LC system back in the late 1980s-early 1990s? " "I feel sick to my stomach." "Ah ah! That is because you are eating of the wrong tree. You are touching death brother. You should pay attention to life. Get out of your mind and turn to your spirit where life is..." Very subtle! But the truth is: 1. I legitimately feel sick to my stomach based on the facts regarding corruption, lying, deception, mistreatment of others, machinations, hypocrisy, politics, manipulation, immaturity, etc. in the upper echelons of the LC system. 2. This is the way I should feel. 3. What I feel really is life. |
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#98 | |
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To my knowledge (disclaimer: not first hand) Gruhler soon thereafter went back to Denver because he ultimately couldn't take the whole LSM scene either. |
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#99 | |
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#100 | |
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http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=38 http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...6&postcount=40 http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=41 http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...5&postcount=42 "Why do you have to know so much?" - Ron Kangas |
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#101 | |
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Prior to every training meeting Witness Lee, the Anaheim elders and some local coworkers would pray downstairs and then come up and some would walk to the front row and sit with Witness Lee. When the trainings were in Anaheim John Ingalls always sat next to Lee. This was just the known and accepted way of things. But this time Gruhler from Denver was in the downstairs meeting and walked up front and took John Ingalls seat next to Lee. So Ingalls had no seat and was left looking around for a place to sit while all the trainees looked on and saw this whole childish game of Witness Lee's unfold. And of course everybody got the intended message. |
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#102 | |
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The elders for the Chinese side of things were Philip Lim and Minoru Chen. Basically two different churches which became obvious when Philip Lee was excommunicated. The English elders did it and next door the Chinese elders were publicly announcing their disagreement with the excommunication. What a mess! Anyway soon Witness Lee & Son had the two Chinese elders plus the new elders Lee set up writing a groveling public letter of apology to Philip Lee. I don't know how these men could look at themselves in the mirror every morning! |
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#103 | |
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As alwayslearning so aptly concluded: Life is feeling sick to my stomach upon learning what Phillip Lee did as manager of LSM to damage so many saints.
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#104 | |
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2 Chronicles 19:7 "Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe.” |
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#105 | |
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Amoral is: lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something. When co-workers have in the past spoke "we don't care for right or wrong......", I now believe they were on the fast track to a calcified conscience. While writing as "Mr Smith" on thebereans.net I often used the phrase "the end justifies the means". That is why Philip Lee and LSM were and are "unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something". It's amoral. The end result in the late 80's was getting the localities lined up with LSM. If it meant circumventing fellowship with local elders, that was the means. |
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#106 | |
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#107 | |
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But I suppressed/ignored my "feeling of death" because, hey, it's the church. Right?
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#108 |
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Ron Kangas in Ecuador 2008: In 1988 certain co-workers severely criticized Brother Lee, and then they separated themselves, they went their own way. One of these brothers, in particular, his whole situation is tragic. I would like to ask him, after you wrote that letter to Brother Lee, and after you began to speak a certain way, what is your spiritual situation? Ron tries to prove that, although the Lee and son tandem leadership was turning the churches upside down, Bill Mallon and others should not have spoken out. Then Ron gives the oft-used Watchman Nee story of what happens to elders who criticized him in China. This word was supposed to convince S. American brothers that material such as we use on this forum concerning Witness Lee should not be spoken, written, or read. How would you compare it with your situation when you were in Elden Hall? [Los Angeles]. Aren’t you more experienced now than then? Would you say you are more living now? When many rebelled against brother Watchman Nee, and some of them wanted to be recovered, Brother Lee asked them, how is your situation? You say you are right, you say Brother Nee was wrong. They all confessed they were dead. If we would practice this one way of discernment, we would avoid most problems. I am not afraid to be simple in this way; you say this, and you say this, I don’t know the facts, I don’t know who is right or wrong. But I know when I listen to you, I get death. And, when I listen to Brother Lee’s ministry, I get life. So it is so simple, I stand with life. The brothers were doing quite fine 11 years after their quarantine. Plus, their heart was for fellowship with all the brothers, even those who misrepresented them and cast them out. John Ingalls shared in 2001: Dear brother Steve, Thank you for sending all the correspondence you have had with other brothers. Though I have not replied for some time, I want you to know that I am still very interested in your burden. There are many dear brothers in the LSM that I would love to have restored fellowship. Certainly two of them are Sherman and Dave Higgins. I met a brother the other day coming out of a store into which I was entering. I recognized him as one I had seen at times in the past, and then suddenly I knew his name, Rick Scatterday, We greeted one another and had most cordial and happy fellowship for a few minutes, with no mention whatever of any problems in the past or any special relationships to cloud us. It was most encouraging. Rick is traveling and ministering in various places. May the Lord continue to bring His people together with Himself as the Head and center and the only focus. That is His house. In His name, John 2001 Bill Mallon email www.twoturmoils.com/Mallon1.pdf |
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#109 | |
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"As I have said before, the spirit of not shepherding and seeking others and being without love and forgiveness is spreading in the recovery everywhere. I believe that not having the Father’s loving and forgiving heart and not having the Savior’s shepherding and seeking spirit is the reason for our barrenness." "I realize that you all work hard, but there is almost no fruit. The Lord says, “By the fruit the tree is known”, but we are a tree without any fruit. Everywhere among us barrenness is very prevailing. A good, gentle pastor may not have a particular gift, such as the gift of speaking; he may simply visit people and welcome them when they come to his meeting, but according to statistics, he will have a ten percent yearly increase. We, however, do not have a ten percent increase. Can you see how barren we are? Many of you are good speakers, knowing the higher truths. The truths we hold are much higher than those in Christianity. However, we do not have fruit because we are lacking in the Father’s loving and forgiving heart and the Son’s shepherding and seeking spirit. We condemn and regulate others rather than shepherd and seek them. We are short of love and shepherding. These are the vital factors for us to bear fruit, that is, to gain people. I am very concerned for our full-time training. Do we train the young ones to gain people or to regulate people? We have to reconsider our ways, as Haggai said, Our way is not right; something is wrong. "We often condemn others, exposing their failures and defects. We must admit that to speak well of ourselves and to expose others’ defects is our natural disposition. Our disposition is like this by birth. There is no need to speak about others’ defects. In the world the legal term for this is defamation. Why do we need to speak in a defaming way? However, nearly all of us do this. Because by the Lord’s mercy and grace I have learned the lesson, it is hard for you to hear me speak of anyone’s defects. Whenever I speak of others’ shortages, I am condemned, saying to myself, “Do you not have shortages?”…Who is without sin? Do you not have shortages? Yet according to our disposition by birth, to speak about others’ defects is our “hobby.” Do you like to expose your own shortages? You do not; you like to cover them." 11 Years after the Pledge Letter http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...fterPledge.pdf 11 years later than that Ron Speaks again http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4517 . |
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#110 | |
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http://mebarber.ccws.org/ The rest of us were continally reminded that our "condition" was not up to par. Thank God that Brother Lee was trying to help us by weighing us in the balance and finding us wanting. Thank God that he was willing to give everybody such honest and frank words because (apparently) he alone was able to do so from his exalted position as apostle of the age. Thank God that Witness Lee was raised up as our deputy Judge!
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#111 | |
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Simply put, if you were abjectly subservient to WL's latest ideas you were 'positive' and doing quite fine; if not then you were 'dark', and 'twisted' and 'negative' and so forth (but even your best attempts would leave WL 'disappointed' at some point!). The BBs as curators of the Museum of Lee Theology have continued to make such assessments. Apparently it is part of their job description as co-workers in service of the memory of WL. The rest of us, I don't think we should be fooled into deciding who is quite fine and who is not. I myself am doing the best I can, and hoping on God's mercy. Jesus clearly and repeatedly told us that God will have mercy on those who show mercy. Therefore it seems prudent to try to be humble and not claim some status, nor to place such qualitative labels on others. WL and the BBs have acted as if they were immune to such restrictions. I am not sure that it would be wise to copy them.
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#112 | ||
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Where is the scriptural justification for using strict rebukes on all the saints? Where is the scriptural support for sisters to do this? Is not this practice of rebuking in the Recovery contrary to the pattern presented by the Apostle Paul as he cared for the churches? Is it not the least bit ironic that Philip Lee, the profligate son elevated to Witness Lee's most trusted co-worker status during the New Way era, would become infamous for berating all the elders in the churches? When it comes to abuse and harsh rebukes of others, it's so easy even a caveman could do it. Are not these the weapons of the Gentiles? The Lord Jesus continually instructed the apostles about not using these techniques, so how could these become the long lost recovered practice enabling the Minister of the Age to get perfected, and subsequently develop a "perfecting plan" missed out on by two millennia of church history?
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#113 | |
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I coach youth football and through my time of observing coaches, both at this level and above, I would say the worst coaches are the most abusive ones. They yell at players to shift the blame of their own failings as coaches. While this method can produce short-term results, the ultimate result is burn-out. If the players do not truly believe the coach loves them, they will not give their all in the crunch. Fear of reprisal only takes a team so far. Fear alone always leads to despondency. There is a reason Paul wrote to fathers, "Fathers, do not embitter your children to anger, or they will become discouraged." (Col. 3:21 cf. Eph. 6:4). Eph 6:4 says "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord." This verse contrasts provoking children to anger with the genuine discipline and instruction that is of the Lord. This is a strong indication that majoring in harsh rebuking is not the Lord's method. |
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#114 | |
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Paul instructed Timothy (I Tim 5.17-21) to never receive a complaint without proper witnesses. This was to prevent any church leader from acting impulsively or with bias. If an accusation was warranted, then a sinning public elder needed open reproof so that all the congregation could properly learn and be admonished. Then he warned Timothy never to serve the saints with favoritism and partiality. Paul's wise instructions precluded so many works of the flesh which only serve to damage God's children. It's too bad the LC leaders never followed Paul's wisdom. I personally have been publicly reproved by Titus Chu, who never even asked me for my side of the story. I have witnessed others who likewise were rebuked without a proper examination. One can only conclude, after years in the local churches, that nearly none of the public shaming was deserved, rather it only served to reinforce their false sense of authority. For LC leaders like Witness Lee and Titus Chu to convince themselves that this abuse is "spiritual perfecting" is little different than applauding those inquisition torturers for using justifiable means to "perfect" God's children. This is why brothers like Ron Kangas can travel to South America and defame Steve Isitt as a "man of death." These patterns of abuse have been learned first hand from watching Witness Lee. Kangas is treating Isitt no different than Lee treated Ingalls, Mallon, or so many other brothers over the years. Whenever brothers in the Recovery speak their conscience and address serious concerns in an upright manner, their very act of speaking up makes them deserving of the harshest censures. Years ago Isitt was branded a rebel and quarantined for writing an honest evaluation of Recovery history called "In the Wake of the New Way." I found that paper extremely helpful, not just for its content, but for the courageous spirit necessary to break party policy and report fairly and honestly. Obviously honest reporting has never been in LSM's best interests. They prefer to spread the fairy tale about the infallibility of their MOTA.
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#115 | |
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Anyway, I had not meant to drag the conversation too far afield. I just felt that "the BBs were a continual source of dismay for WL" perhaps signalled a social and organizational context worth noting.
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#116 | |
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Maybe through circumstances, training and/or personality she did develop certain mannerisms that came across as being stern. But she was a British lady in the early part of the 20th century - when ladies starting when they were young girls were conscientiously taught to be "lady-like" i.e. polite and proper in the company of others. So I find the idea of her berating brothers to be quite a stretch - yet a useful fiction for the likes of Witness Lee, Titus Chu, etc. |
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#117 | |
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TC was only displaying the response he himself expected to receive when shaming those brothers "under" him. There was a hierarchy of authority which was top-down, and a proper flow of praise which was bottom-up. Any violation was deemed to be insubordination, especially by those like TC who were in the know. I heard about another training or conference in Anaheim where the Cleveland attendees gave a glorious test when called upon to review the message. It totally upstaged all the SoCal churches which were, of course, directly under WL's ministry and supervision. Obviously WL was slighted by the performance of the Ohio saints. What TC did next was initially startling, but entirely predictable once one understands the rules of engagement. TC went to his lieutenant, Louis Cheng, who had been placed in charge of testing preparation, and reemed him up one side and down the other. Thus the rule of order was established. Rebuking must flow downhill, and glory must go uphill. Once this principle is understood, and regularly practiced, life in the Recovery was very peaceful. Obviously, all the storms and rebellions in the Recovery resulted from brothers refusing to follow these simple rules.
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#118 | |
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Why was this allowed to go on? Because it was Witness Lee's son. If it was my son or your son he would have been fired from LSM and removed from the fellowship of the church until repentant. But Witness Lee's son gets an exemption. Approximately 10 years prior to these events of the late 1980s his son was involved in similar immoral behavior. The eyewitness who reported it was excommunicated from the church and Philip Lee continued on as the LSM GM. Why? Because he's Witness Lee's son. |
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#119 | ||
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But as we have seen in WL's book "The fermentation of the present rebellion", and other attempts to convey what really happened, we cannot simply say that something occurred as WL stated. If we could not trust his accounts of events in the U.S. in the 1960s and 1970s, how much less the events in China in the 1920s? Christianity is in one aspect an emergence of thinking from the "myths" of Gods and primordial mists. What we believe, largely, is based on observable fact, not legend. There was a city named Jerusalem, with a race called the Jews. They had been at one time a great kingdom (David, Solomon, etc) with a great temple and "palaces of ivory" (Psa 45:8). The kingdom had fallen and became under the control of the Roman empire. Even atheists will admit that these are facts. Etc. We know the story about Jesus. My point is that Christians believe this as independently observable fact, not myth. There really was a Jerusalem, there was the promise of a coming king, the "Son of Man" and the "Son of David" who would restore the former glory, and we Christians believe that there was a man named Jesus. We believe that He conquered sin, death, the devil and Hades. He is the true king. Our history as Christians has thousands of years of observable and verifiable facts. Even the raising from the dead of Jesus Christ -- it is a fact that the disciples claimed to have seen Him and it is a fact that we the Christian polity believe their claims. Now, enter WL. He arrived in the U.S. with many stories, many of which are now at least suspect as self-serving fictions. Given his account with the facts of local church history in the last few decades, we would do well to suspect anything he said unless it is independently verified by untampered witnesses. Quote:
The apostle Peter clearly told us in his epistle "not to lord it over each other." Now, one can be strict and disciplined with oneself, and be an example in this way to others. Perhaps MEB was very "polite and proper" in the 19th century British way, and the young foppish Chinese lads wandered off in search of something more relaxing, except the young WN who realized that discipline was necessary. Wesley had learned this hundreds of years before, and anyone who tries to follow Christ should at some point learn that being a "disciple" involves self-control, or "discipline", and might do well to imitate, or follow, someone who displays self-control. But that is entirely different from public shaming and lording it over one another, and the fiction of "strict" MEB may have been created as a cover for the latter behavior. I don't know. I am just thinking aloud here. What I do remember is that WL was "continually disappointed" in pretty much everyone and everything, up to and even including his cheerleaders the BBs, but MEB and WN could do no wrong. That looks like legend to me.
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#120 | |
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And this continued after the canon of the Bible was finished. There are voluminous writings from the first centuries, not only Christian but also Jewish and Roman historians and so forth. All of these textual witnesses independently corroborate and strengthen the gospel story. As I have mentioned, it seems that a lot was ignored and even actively suppressed in the 4th through 10th centuries by "church authorities" who had their own agenda. When the RCC split from the Greek Orthodox Church, Luther & Calvin's "recovery" of truth in the 16th century didn't have access to a lot of post-canonical commentaries. They were left to their own logic and the text at hand; they'd look at scripture and say, "What does this mean to me, a reasonable believing person?", and the group consensus became "Calvinistic doctrine" and "Puritanism" and so forth. Luther's "justification by faith" is arguably an improvement on the traditions and authorities of the RCC, but we should not say, "Okay, now we have fully recovered the truth". That is the WL fiction we were sold: WN supposedly had read all the old books and recovered their truths; now just read (LSM edition) WN and WL books and get the "completed NT revelation", the "high peak truths" etc. Nonsense. That is like saying that since "Read with Dick and Jane" contains all the letters of the English alphabet and has been used for decades in the U.S. primary school system that now we have everything an have no need for any further reading materials. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File ![]() Fun with Dick and Jane may be fun in first grade, but don't kid yourself and pretend it is post-graduate study. Shouting it repeatedly may be even more fun than reading it, but it still doesn't "constitute" anything but a loud first grader. And actively discouraging and suppressing people who want to go beyond that makes you a stumbling to others. Jesus said, "Woe to you; you neither enter in nor do you permit others to enter."
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#121 | |
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#122 |
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I thought the eyewitnesses were relocated (witness protection program?) and the elder was effectively told to leave. When the elder came to the church meeting, the elder's seat next to WL had been filled by someone else.
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#123 | |
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It is important to say here what we are doing, and what we are not doing. We are not adding to the scripture. Scripture is scripture and commentary is commentary. But to tackle the scripture on your own without the guidance of those who were there before you is to assume that they were wasting their time and have nothing to add to the discussion. Smacks of arrogance to me. As RK might say, "What have they accomplished? Absolutely nothing". Also, we are not taking anything away from God's word. WL's dismissal of large sections of scripture as "natural" and "fallen" is arguably the equivalent of taking away the words of God. If you don't get something in the Bible, fine. If it doesn't speak much to you, fine. But does that mean it is not the inspired word of God but rather the natural word of fallen man? I really don't think I want to go there either. WL seemed to circumvent his lack of scholarship by stressing "life". Like if he wrote it it was life, but if someone else said it then it was maybe just "dead knowledge". So for scriptural understanding you basically ended up with "WL said it; therefore it's true." And if WL didn't say it, then nobody said it. Why? Because that's what WL said: WN had read everything, and had told WL everything useful, so why bother read anything else?
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#124 | |
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There were several contributing factors to Max Rapoport getting the ax: 1. The young Galileans "flow" created a lot of havoc as churches throughout the country were gutted of their young people who moved to OC. This was a plan devised by Witness Lee and implemented by Rapoport as his front man. Thus Rapoport was a convenient scapegoat offered up by Lee to appease elders and coworkers who were upset by this "flow". 2. Sandy Rapoport was publicly accused of being in a "sister's rebellion" while her husband was out of town. 3. Prior to and regardless of the young Galilean thing some coworkers and elders were unhappy with Rapoport suddenly becoming Lee's "right hand man" so to speak. They considered him nothing but an uncouth upstart who did not deserve such a position. 4. The final straw was Rapoport confronting Philip Lee about his immoral behavior. That was an absolute no-no! |
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#125 |
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Perhaps you are thinking about another event. In the instance I am referring to the eyewitness was excommunicated and the other party involved in the immoral behavior was relocated.
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#126 | |
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BTW, when coworkers and elders went to him about their legit concerns regarding what was going on in the late 1980s he basically told them it was none of their business. "My way or the highway" was the motto of Witness Lee regardless of all the "spiritual" language and pretense at humility he used to hide this reality. |
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#127 | |
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The Audio and a word from Ron RON KANGAS: "The temptation is to ask, who is right and who is wrong. Or you may try to find out for yourself what is right and what is wrong. “Oh, this man of death, Steve Isitt, he wrote something. And someone else is sending it everywhere. I need to figure this out; oh, I never heard these things. Could this be true? Did the brothers behave like that?” "As soon as you think this way, you yourself are finished. Okay? Because you are on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You apply that tree to the situation. So some may decide that this person is right. Others will say that person is wrong. That will lead to argument, dissension, division, and confusion. Who has all the information? "There is a statement made about Brother Lee; you can’t ask Brother Lee about it. If you try to discern this way, you will be brought into death. This is serious. You read through this thing, you listen to this thing, you exercise your mind, you try to discern what is right, what is wrong, and all the while you are eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and you will be the first one to be killed. And, then if you speak about this, you will spread death. "But there is another way to discern. This is the way of God." RK The Audio and a word from Ron www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=50798 |
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#128 | |
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Appendix 1 Brother Lee Not Open to Opinion or Fellowship from the Brothers One Accord for the Lord’s New Move Elders Training, Book 7 In the beginning of the era of the new way, Brother Lee made it clear who was the leader among the churches in the recovery. There was to be "no uncertain sounding of the trumpet" for an army of followers to follow him as its unique leader. He gave the following analogy: "The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose the right to say anything." He continued, "you may be a member of a local church and yet have nothing to do with the ministry to fight the battle for the Lord's interest on the earth. All of you are the elders, the co-workers, and the apprentice elders, the leading ones, in the recovery. I am speaking to you all as the soldiers in the recovery, not to the citizens. I am speaking to the soldiers of the army. Are you going to remain in the army? You have to realize what the army is and what the army would do. The army has no capacity to take your opinion…” (pp. 80-81, ET 7) 1. Atlanta Elders Conference John Ingalls relates an elders’ meeting in which Brother Lee told the brothers how he felt about them and their ability to fellowship with him. He essentially informed them that they were not qualified to raise questions with him or to criticize anything he did. John Ingalls "In September Brother Lee had a conference in Atlanta with two elders’ meetings, one on Friday, September 16th, (1988) and the other on the Lord’s Day, September 18th. The second meeting was exceptional with brothers from all over the country attending. I would like to briefly describe it, noting a few significant things that were said, (I myself was not present but I received reports from a number of brothers concerning it.) "Brother Lee strongly vindicated the way he had taken against all criticisms. He drew a line; any who would not take this way, he said, are “dropouts”, and the Lord will have no mercy. Addressing the brothers, he said that none of them understood what he was doing. None knew what he was doing in Taipei; hence there was no one that he could fellowship with. When I went to Taipei, he said, “I did not fellowship with one person concerning what I was going to do.” He continued: “None of you is perfected. Who can say that he is perfected? So you are not qualified to criticize what I am doing. I didn’t include you in my fellowship – how can I? So let there be no more talk about anything I do. You criticize my young trainers in Taipei, telling me their mistakes, but I was doing everything; what they did was to carry out my burden. "Don Rutledge, an elder in Dallas before moving to North Carolina, told me, “That meeting was the most devastating and discouraging experience of all my time in the church.” What particularly bothered him was Brother Lee’s attitude toward the brothers. The atmosphere, he said, was heavy, oppressive, and abusive. (Reports came to my ears from a number of brothers who attended that meeting; all indicated something similar.) Brother Lee had wanted to have a time of fellowship `with Don immediately following the session, but Don was so troubled and depressed that he told Brother Lee he had to go home. As he walked out the door, Titus Chu came up and said to Don, "I’m afraid this will make our situation worse. I hope not”. 2. Elders From Raleigh Visit Brother Lee Brother Lee was not interested in the fellowship offered to him from brothers in the church in Raleigh, who came to him seeking his fellowship over the desperate concerns in their locality. John Ingalls "In the summer of 1988 Tom Cesar of the church in Raleigh came to Anaheim to discuss with Brother Lee the points of a seventy-one-page compendium entitled Concerns with our Practice Regarding Truth and Life, which had been mailed to him earlier. The brothers in Raleigh had labored for many hours over this work in the expectation that Brother Lee would read it, be apprised of their concerns, realize the gravity of the situation, and hopefully make some major changes in the course we were taking. Under each point they had put together zeroxed copies of pages with quotes from Watchman Nee and Brother Lee’s earlier printed ministry together with quotes from his recent ministry to prove that there had been significant changes contradicting Brother Lee’s own teaching. While Tom was in Anaheim that summer I saw him, and learning that he had presented Brother Lee with this writing I commented, "I doubt that Brother Lee will read it. He doesn’t like to read things of that nature that raise questions concerning his work or ministry.” "The Raleigh brothers…agreed to come to Anaheim the week after the training to meet with Brother Lee. He said he would answer their questions. They arrived on Saturday, January 7, and met with Brother Lee that night. They met also on the Lord’s Day morning, afternoon, and evening, and again on Monday morning – a total of approximately ten hours. The first evening Brother Lee did most of the speaking, giving them a history of the "conspiracy and rebellion." However, the brothers were able to say a few things. Tom pointed out how the church life was going down, and they were looking for answers. He said they had no problem with the matters of the new way, but how it was carried out was a problem. They were not concerned for right and wrong, but for God’s righteousness. They read some verses to him and quoted from the Normal Christian Church Life by W. Nee, but Brother Lee did not want to hear it. He said that he knew what Watchman Nee meant in that book, and what Watchman Nee meant then does not apply to today’s situation. He said, moreover, that there is no basic problem among us, but only a storm in Germany and Anaheim. John So, he said, exercises a strong control over Stuttgart, and just like Bill Freeman (a former elder of the church in Seattle) he is trying to set up another ministry. One of the Raleigh brothers then asked how you can identify another ministry. Brother Lee replied that it is very difficult. The brothers said that Brother Lee was very defensive at times and was like a ball bouncing from one matter to another. Tom Cesar asked, "Why can’t brothers come together to discuss their concerns without being considered to be conspiring?” But Brother Lee, they said, had no ear to hear them. It was as if they were talking to the wall. He didn’t want to clear up their points; he hadn’t even read the outline they had presented to him the previous summer. He would not answer their questions directly. They were impressed that he never asked how the saints in the church in Raleigh were doing, as if he was not concerned for them. The brothers were very disappointed (p. 140). 3. LSM Sister’s Report As a sister working in the office of the Living Stream Ministry, a former elder’s wife had day-to-day exposure to the interferences that were being encountered by dear saints - elders, co-workers, and churches - in places around the recovery both far and near. She had been troubled to the extent of writing to Brother Lee an eleven-page letter expressing her concerns of the ill-treatment of the saints in different places at the hands of the LSM. She and her husband, an elder in Southern California, went to Brother Lee to read him the letter, and as she began to read Brother Lee cut her off soon after she started, and he took over and dominated the time, sharing his own burden about “the Lord’s move.” She was very discouraged, but Brother Lee granted her another visit to him with her husband at her husband’s request, and again as she began to read, Brother Lee stopped her, before she could get through half a page. He then dominated the remainder of the time with his own burden concerning “the Lord’s move” on the earth, not showing interest in her fellowship. Brother Lee could not listen to what the husband considered a mild part of the letter compared to the more serious matters the letter addressed. His wife, thoroughly despondent over her experience, never tried again and never recovered from her experience and disillusionment with the church and the recovery. She has never met again with any group of believers. She and her husband had experienced the same attitude in Brother Lee that was encountered by John So, Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, the Raleigh brothers, and many more. Brother Lee was not interested in the interferences - they were to him just “misunderstandings” of the “help” the LSM was trying to render. 4. Churches in Southern CA In the late eighties, during “the Lord’s new move”, the elders pondered many things in their hearts and were not short of desire and need to open up and talk about what was on their heart for their localities and for the recovery. In a surprising elders’ meeting in 1988 when they did open up to one another and share in an honest way about what they felt, Brother Lee was unable to truly hear them or understand the problems they faced in their localities, as morale in locality after locality declined. A description of that elders’ meeting follows: John Ingalls – "Dick Taylor, an elder in Long Beach, started [the sharing] with a lively, full-of enjoyment kind of testimony, such as Dick is well-known for, thanking the Lord for the door-knocking and the Gospel preaching in Long Beach, but ending with an honest word about the depression and the discouragement among some of the saints. This was unusual for Dick but he was telling it like it was. Other brothers followed who also spoke very honestly about dissensions concerning the new way and discouragement among the saints in their localities, for which they were very concerned. In some places divisions had arisen over the new way. John Smith, an elder in San Diego, ended the time of sharing with an honest account of his concerns for the saints in his church, mentioning how he feared that with the overemphasis on methods, numbers, and increase, the saints would become activity-centered instead of Christ-centered. "What was extraordinary was the elders speaking up in such an honest and forthright way, knowing that such reports were not what Brother Lee liked or wanted to hear. We were not accustomed to doing this due partly to a sense of intimidation. To my knowledge this was the first time that had been done. This was encouraging. But Brother Lee was visibly bothered, and later reacted strongly to the brothers’ speaking, saying of one brother’s sharing (John Smith’s) that it was like pouring iced water on him. As a result of Brother Lee's not being open to the brothers and their fellowship, the Lord had no way to care for the churches in a practical way through Witness Lee to maintain the oneness of the Body. As the Raleigh brothers said, they had no problem with the matters of the new way, but how it was carried out was a problem. They were not concerned for right and wrong, but for God’s righteousness. This word could have been echoed by many brothers at that time, who found that “fellowship” with Brother Lee was a one-sided matter of complying with him and his wishes, regardless of the circumstances and objections in their spirit. (all excerpts are from Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery) Steve Isitt |
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#129 | |
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Re: Brother Lee Not Open for Fellowship
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So, how did WL get to be "today's Paul"? My understanding is that WN looked around at the Chinese Christian scene, circa 1920, and saw "British/Chinese" and "American/Chinese" churches, and realized that the Brethren model offered him an opportunity to create indigenous, locally based, "Chinese" churches. This was successful, and eventually it led one of his successors (WL) to expand abroad. So we end up with the irony of "Chinese/American" churches in the U.S.; they simply are extensions of a church which itself had been raised up as an Asian rejection of external European & American influence. But WL didn't see it that way: he felt that he was simply "today's Paul". So everything he did was God's move on the earth today, and anyone who didn't get with the program was an "opposer of God." Now I return to my original point: there were actually a number of textual witnesses of Jesus Christ, and by obsessively focusing on one aspect of one witness as the sole vehicle for God's move on earth we see the result: an unbalanced and non-Christian ministry, indicated above. The apostle John wrote this: "if all the things which Jesus did were to be written, I suppose the world itself could not contain all the books therein". In other words, there is a lot to say about Jesus. So why disparage the testimonies? Why reject Peter, James, Jude, Job, and the Psalms? Because they don't support the narrow, Paul-centric "God's New Testament economy" template that was supposedly the culmination of the present recovered truth. And eventually you get the discouragement felt by Ingalls, Rutledge, and so many others when they realized that the "glorious church life" was merely a cover for something neither about nor according to Jesus Christ. Additionally, WL probably turned his focus from "life" to "truth" because at some point he realized that his explications of "life" couldn't hold the Lord's recovery together. But neither could his revealed "truth", because it was based on a shallow and truncated reading of the scripture. The truth is a person, Jesus Christ, revealed to us in the very pages of the scripture, and in more depth and detail than we might realize. All scripture is God-breathed, not just some of it. WL's ministry presented a narrow and unbalanced reading from just a few sources, and everything else got shoehorned to fit the "revelation", or else was ignored or rejected. Given all of that, should any of the statements like quoted above, or found in the pages of TFOTPR, or even more recent speakings, be a surprise? These statements of WL and the BBs are not about Jesus Christ, but about the continued viability of a ministry which at its core has always been about something else.
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#130 | |
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There is nothing to support this. The apostle John didn't support it, nor did Paul. Only WL's "economy of God" stands behind this kind of analysis. And who in the Lord's recovery could object to this kind of teaching, and "restrain the madness of the prophet"? Everyone was intimidated into silence. Is it any wonder that WL eventually went off the rails, and dragged so many with him? LSM can get as many theologians as they want to verify WL's orthodoxy. That doesn't remove the unbalanced and non-Christian teachings and behaviors.
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#131 | |
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#132 | |
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At some point I interrupted: "Your problem, sir, was not which escape route you took after you robbed a bank, or which vehicle you drove. Your problem was that you robbed a bank." WL's and the BB's continued attempts to explain the source of the unrelieved turmoil in the local church system (too much stress on "life" at the expense of "truth", or one of Lee's lieutenants had "ambition") remind me of this.
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#133 | |
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Now, do you suppose that only that one verse in question references the coming Christ? That the rest of the chapter are the words of a vain, soulish man who is trying to be good? And that the same rule applies in John 19:36 with reference to Psalm 34? And so on and so on? Do you suppose that the noble Berean Jews in Acts 17, when examining the scriptures, only found those cited verses, and concluded that the rest were fallen concepts? Why not? They had the New Testament ministry of Paul right in front of them, right? Why not conclude, a la Lee, that the bulk of the text in question was merely natural, not revelatory of Christ? Pity for them that they only had Paul and not the "rich ministry of Witness Lee". They wouldn't have wasted their time "eagerly examining the scriptures every day" because Lee would have saved them from all of that. What we see here is a feedback loop. The leadership of Lee was unquestionable. John Ingalls testimony, and others' makes this clear. So Lee could interpret the scriptures any way he saw fit, and nobody could raise a hand and say, "Excuse me, sir, it says here..." If you did that you were called "rebellious" and "negative" and when you came to the next meeting you'd find, like Ingalls, that your seat had been filled by someone more "positive". And, Lee's teachings showed Paul as the culmination of all ministry (never mind that once Paul had departed, we could still see John, and better yet, functioning as a prophet [Rev 1:3, 22:18]). All Lee had to do was "imitate Paul" and voila, he had the ministry of the age. So Lee controlled the scriptural understanding, and the scriptural understanding (per Lee) said that to maintain good order in the church he must be the lonely guy at the top, and accountable only to God. It's tough at the top, but I guess someone has to do it. Right?
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#134 | |
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Following every chaotic "storm" in the Recovery, also known as "rebellions," Witness Lee would immediately select the best "goat," though obviously it was not randomly chosen. All the sins of Lee and LSM, along with the supposed failures of the saints, were transferred to this selected scapegoat, who was once for all banished from the Recovery via an orchestrated "dog and pony show" called a quarantine. During the interim between storms, Lee and LSM would rehearse in their trainings how all the blame was the scapegoat's, and that now the Recovery was purified from such awful sins as ambition and opinion. Thus we would all proclaim how living and timely each training was, certain that every failure of old was now replicated and exposed among us, proving how much we alone were on the Lord's heart.
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#135 | |
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Similarly, we hear "Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ." (Eph. 5) But that "being subject" is to apply to everyone except the "authority", here WL or his deputy. The authority is subject to no one. Thus the speech of WL, as relayed by JI, makes perfect sense. I mean, what else could the "minister of the age" say?
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Not only, but there would be subtle reinforcement in at least one Holy Word for Morning Revival I had seen.
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#137 |
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For years I heard about scapegoat Max, then we moved on to the Ingalls scapegoat. It's so predictable what they are saying now.
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#138 | |
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Amoral is: lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something. |
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#139 | |
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Now, am I a better man than WL? No. Or BP or RK? I doubt it. But any spirit that wants to dominate the assembly should be identified as not of Christ, and instantly and utterly rejected. If you subject yourself to it your journey will be quite distorted by the experience, I can assure you. Occasionally I access this website, Local Church Discussions, via Google. So when I am typing in "localchur" the Google website helpfully points me to possibilities. One of which is "localchurches.com" Their heading reads: "The local church loves Jesus Christ and have received help through His servants, especially Watchman Nee and Witness Lee." My question is simple: Who put the name of Witness Lee, or Watchman Nee, up next to Jesus Christ? Did God do that, or man? It is clearly revealed in the scripture that God will judge all, and will indeed put some up higher and some down lower. This is repeated in various ways throughout the scripture, both in OT type, in Gospel parable and teaching, in epistle, in John's revelation. But to place ones' name, work, and person next to Jesus Christ in this age, in an attempt to anticipate the Judge's work, is folly. Talk about "natural", and "fallen"!
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#140 | |
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In the early days, we focused on "Christ, only Christ." We regularly discussed how degraded was the whole of Christianity for plastering the pastor's name on the church signboard. Now we see Lee's name on every website. So degraded!
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#141 | |
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Now, it seems that our testimony in that city is based on Jesus Christ, as helpfully revealed to us by the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, as carefully tended by the Blendeds Publishing House in Anaheim, CA. Got that? And if you tell me that WN/WL as presented by the Blendeds is equivalent to "Christ", I reply that anyone who makes that kind of assertion on this side of the Judgment Seat has rocks in their head. Is THAT what our oneness is based on? Our faith? Our testimony? You can complain about "anonymous internet posters" all you want, but if you silence every voice other than the ministry of WL as tended by his curators in Anaheim, someone will anonymously take to the internet and say "Wrong!" You can silence me, and shut down this website, and the stones themselves will cry out: "Wrong!" And you may say, "We don't care for right and wrong" but see how long that statement stands at the Judgment Seat. It will be vaporized in an instant.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#142 | |
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Sorry I don't come around often enough to respond in a timely fashion.
Quote:
Maybe it is because he was talking about someone else. Maybe the implication was intended to direct the "little saints" to be different and put the blame for the problem on them. If we are supposedly the vast priesthood, then we are all the shepherds. So you don't have to blame the leadership because there supposedly isn't any. (Of course, we all know there is leadership. And it is the trunk of the tree. And it is rotten . . . . Doesn't speak well for the tree.) I just have this problem that the guy who can get the entirety of the "Recovery" to quickly change direction based on one message is needing to speak to everyone to somehow get the people he is otherwise privately brow-beating to do what they should. You would think that if they were going to subject themselves to the kind of brow-beating that James Barber's sons said he told about, they would either do as told or get out. So I think that pointing those words at the BBs is probably not the right answer. Or interpreting it the way we are is not the right answer.
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#143 | |
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Not caring for right or wrong? If you believe All scripture is God-breathed, the writers of the Bible did care about right or wrong. There are 299 instances of righteousness found in the Bible. It is unscriptural to say we don't care for right or wrong. So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him. Malachi 3:18 |
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#144 |
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Quote by WL:
"First Corinthians 11:19 says that divisions are unavoidable that the approved ones might be made manifest. The kind of turmoil and rebellion [late 80s] that we are now experiencing always sifts the congregation. In such a situation some are sifted and some are manifested as being approved." What do you think, you members of the Body of Christ? I know what I think and will probably submit an article, as we all work toward oneness in the Body.... |
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#145 |
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![]() Turmoils Manifest Approved Ones 1 Cor. 11:19 – “For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you.” from DCP book, Properly Discerning Spiritual Authority to Rightly Follow the Lord, p70 “At times the Lord sovereignly allows turmoils in and among the churches. These turmoils serve to purify the churches and to manifest those who are approved. .”During the desolation of the church, the different kinds of confusion, errors, and corruption function to manifest the ones approved by God. Whoever passes the tests and is approved by God will be manifested through the desolation. “God does not desire the desolation, but in His hand it functions to manifest those who can pass the tests. Without desolation, confusion, errors, corruption, and darkness, we would not be able to see each individual’s condition.” - W. Lee DCP assertion: “In our history, such turmoils have often been caused by brothers of some prominence in the work. This should not surprise us. Remember that the 250 who followed Korah were ‘leaders of the assembly’ (Num. 16:2). What then should we do when those who seem to be authorities deviate from the truth?” The implication given here is preposterous by men whose practice is to deflect the truth and disseminate lies in the churches - “that brothers of some prominence” have caused turmoil and desolation in our history; when the brothers they refer to in the late 80s were actually men of conscience objecting to the formation of a party during a movement set in motion by Witness Lee and recklessly promoted by LSM co-workers, causing turmoil and division. DISASSOCIATION LETTER This letter addresses major concerns that “brothers of some prominence” had during the late 80s turmoil, which LSM / DCP withhold from the churches while also suppressing other serious concerns which clears the way for their fabricated version of church history. “Dear brother Witness Lee, It has come to our attention recently through several witnesses that gross immorality and some other sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5:11 have been committed by your son Philip Lee (who is identified as your Ministry Office) on more than one occasion over a long period of time. This deeply disturbs us. It grieves us even more that you and some of your close co-workers were aware of the situation and yet not only tolerated it but covered it up. What is worse is that, while this was happening, you and your co-workers were promoting and exalting him to the extent that he was able to intervene in the churches’ affairs in recent years. The peak of this promotion was evident at your elders’ training in Taipei in June 1987. Some of your co-workers were not only themselves under the influence and control of Philip Lee, but were also openly bringing elders and young people of many local churches to come under the same influence and control in your name and for your sake. The five brothers whom you and your Office sent to Europe in your place in May 1986 were trying to do the same here. Our young people who went to your training in Taipei have also testified of the same. Before God, before the brothers and sisters in the local churches, before the Christian public, and for the sake of the Lord’s testimony, we are compelled by our conscience to fully disassociate ourselves from such sins and behaviour in your work”. (signatories were twenty-one brothers from nine churches in Europe who effectually withdrew from the recovery with this letter on September 17, 1989) |
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#146 | |
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WL used proxies, "medium potatoes" if you will, to deal with the "little saints". Remember the role of Max R in the "young Galileans" episode. In my local church we occasionally had various regional or sector leaders who always made it clear they were not free-lancing but were blending with us at the behest of higher-ups. And when the visitors were from Anaheim they usually tried to give us a private word from WL himself. Wow! a word only one person removed from the great man himself! And on the negative side, look how WL dealt with these agents when things turned bad. As Ohio said they became convenient scapegoats. Again, Max R comes to mind. Also I saw WL publicly browbeat TC in a meeting once. WL didn't say, "I wonder if that's how things are with the saints in Ohio"; rather, he turned to his left and said, "Titus, is that how things are in Cleveland?" and TC rose stiffly and looked at the ground and said gravely, "I am ashamed to admit..." Lee panning his lieutenants' efforts in front of us all seems like a reasonable assessment to me.
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#147 | |
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Titus Chu, of course, convinced us in the Great Lakes area that his way was the more spiritual one. But was it really? He liked to say that Witness Lee was his spiritual father, and that the mistakes of one's father are, "none of my business." But when it comes to enabling the unrighteousness and the abuses of Witness Lee, what is the difference between treating him as an infallible god and saying that all his actions are "none of my business"? Granted Titus Chu did take considerable heat from the Blendeds for not being such a fervent cheerleader, but neither did Titus Chu stand for righteousness nor alert the churches to corruption at LSM. Did he not condemn John Ingalls for exposing LSM filth? Thus we see the unwritten mandate placed upon every Recovery leader -- unwavering loyalty to leadership supersedes personal integrity, Christian righteousness, steadfastness to the truth, faithfulness to the Lord, and, of course, care for the saints under your care. Then, in another great show of irony, we have Witness Lee publicly shaming all the leaders for not being proper shepherds. Did he really expect to have it both ways?
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#148 | |
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#149 | |
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And basically here he is once again reinforcing that he is the boss of "the work" and what he says goes. He can do whatever he wants without fellowship and if you don't like it too bad - you're not qualified to fellowship with him anyway. He is far too superior. To fellowship with you is beneath him. Further in a surprising moment of candor - which he probably hoped would never be repeated - he admitted that all the crazy things being done and said by his young trainers came with his blessing and therefore nobody is allowed to criticize it. And this means that mere hoi polloi should not question such things as: "Follow Witness Lee blindly; even if he's wrong he's right", "Philip Lee is brother Lee's top coworker", "We should learn from the Red Guards", etc. Of course there are countless problems with this sort of thing but the one that stands out the most to me is this: a good leader produces good leaders and a good teacher produces good teachers. And they are not threatened in anyway when these leaders and teachers emerge and are better than they are. It is an indication that they did their job well. So if what Witness Lee said is true it is to his shame and exposes his complete inability to train and equip people. You have no one to fellowship with about the direction of the work after almost 30 years in the US? Really? Then shame on you! You are a disgrace! You should be fired immediately! |
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#150 | |
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I'm pretty sure that Lee did take the top leaders to task in their private meetings. But when he wanted to shame, he was direct and pointed. Not vague. So I was just wondering out loud whether this is the same thing as the others. Maybe it was just the way you wrote it up in the post I was responding to. It just sounded much less specific. More vague and general. But trends among the rank and file might not be so easy to just bark an order about. Better to suggest that they were somehow missing some alleged mark and see what happens. That way they wouldn't be entirely surprised when the elders started taking action on some who were staying "off the mark." Just sayin.
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#151 | |
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#152 | |
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We leave the errors of such so called authorities. We reject the claims of those who would be apostles and their deputies. We see their hollow words for what they are — lies cloaked in the rhetoric of the Godly. Unrighteousness called righteousness. And even worse — unrighteousness excused as unimportant. As irrelevant in the discerning of truth. My sister once asked me, or rather assumed that I would agree with Lee when he said (whatever it was). In the particular case, the answer was "no." And at this point, my default position on anything Lee says is "no — until estabilshed otherwise." I will assume he is wrong until I become convinced that on a particular thing he is actually right.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#153 |
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#154 | |
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To sum up: I will assume LSM/DCP are in error until I have become convinced otherwise. |
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#155 | |
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As long as you can be partial to their sect, you can have oneness. However it is not the oneness according to the Bible. It's a oneness according to man. |
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#156 | |
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In the link is an LSM mindset being put to the test by various posters taking the position of "no" against an LSM poster till truth eventually prevails and the LSM poster stops his "artful" display of unrighteousness being called righteousness. He does not confess he was wrong; he just disappears and the thread ends. The 6 pages of short posts on the thread goes fast, and is well worth the reading, as Norm, Ohio, Mr. Smith, Speakers Corner, Paul Cox (and others, eventually me), try to deal with him. And, oh yes, Hope (Don Rutledge) made a timely contribution. "Just say no long enough and loud enough and truth will prevail." _Steve Isitt |
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#157 |
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#158 |
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I would have to listen to the message again when Ron visited here in the NW. Basically admitting WL was not infallible. All the while no admission of any mistakes made by the ministry (the pledge of allegiance to WL and his ministry for one).
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#159 | |
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***** Breaking News ***** Breaking News *****LSM's chief theologian, Princeton educated Ronald Kangas, has publicly stated that Witness Lee was not infallible. Yet he was not willing to state where and when such failure had occurred. ***** Move along folks ***** Move along folks *****There's nothing here to see. There's nothing here to see.
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#160 | |||
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Quote:
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__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#161 |
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http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...untability.pdf
"Leaders from several Local Churches convened recently (April 2010) in Boise, ID. Among the items set forth for discussion was the announcement that DCP, the defense and confirmation team for the LC and Living Stream Ministry (LSM) was in need of financial donations from the saints for dealing with “attacks” on the internet, pointing out that their funds have run low due to the years of litigation against Harvest House Publishers." S.I. 2010 |
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#162 | |
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![]() Thanks for that major insight Mr. Kangas! We kinda knew that already. So which actions and teachings of Witness Lee do you think are wrong? Dead silence? Really? ![]() |
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#163 |
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Yes, Officer Barbrady.
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#164 |
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So we finally have one of the infamous "Brothers We" joining Lee who made what was essentially a death-bed declaration that we had been wrong. I guess Lee managed to pass out before he uttered even one example of error, so it was not really much of anything. So, in keeping with their example, RK and the rest will follow suit and start many repentances that repent of nothing. Just say the word "repent" or "fallible" or "wrong."
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#165 | |
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Serious flaws! And too longsuffering with Titus Chu. Such failings by the consummate Minister Of The Age! ![]()
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#166 | |
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Barbara Mallon response to Witness Lee "repentance" "Allow me to respond. I do not believe that W. Lee had a genuine repentance in Feb 1997. If he genuinely did, there would be some 'fruit' to such a repentance. Where is it? If he genuinely repented, would not the Lord have kept him alive a few years more to see and cherish that fruit? Allow me to illustrate, let me assume for a moment that it's genuine; he repented, in private, concerning just one name, Bro. X. 14 years have passed, I don't know of any record of an attempt at reconciliation toward Bro. X. Surely Lee would not have passed on this 'crucial charge' to others without first leading by example. He would not have left it up to others 'to read over, fellowship, and interpret'. This is a cop-out. this is passing the buck yet again. again W. Lee does not take responsibility for his own 'mistakes' . 'mistakes' is a lie. Assuming the headship of Christ (by referring to oneself as 'the oracle of God'/minister of the age/ commander-in-chief) or branding fellow brothers as rebels are sins against and undermine the Body. No one does such things by mistake, by accident. These are wilful acts and have been symptomatic of W. Lee's regime. Symptomatic to the point of abuse. With LSM, there is a 'White House' and commander-in-chief , but where is the 'House of Representatives', where is the 'secretary of foreign affairs'? Watching 24 and Jack Bauer's frenzied one-man ministry of 'lets pursue the terrorists', with it's direct line to the White House routine, is, for me, illustrative of whats wrong with the LR. W. Lee, TV evangelists, they all have something in common, an addiction to power even if the cost is dignity. We have been too kind to the 'Wizard of Oz'." (2010 email 3 1/2 years) Barbara had just heard in 2010 of Brother Lee's "repentance" in 1997 and wanted me to send her information about this. I sent her the transcript. |
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#167 | |
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This was a plan hatched out of the dire necessity to protect one's own ministry and immoral son, while smearing the reputation of those closest to him, who were only concerned for God's righteousness and God's people.
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#168 | |
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For most brothers, not directly. However indirectly they have not resisted the condemnation of former leading ones. Brothers have not told the co-workers to stop this kind of speaking regarding former elders. |
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#169 | |
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Is the Bible indifferent to righteousness? Not hardly! At least in one translation there is 299 verses with righteousness. Obviously right and wrong does matter in the Bible. We read in 2 Timothy "All Scripture is God-breathed", in books of the prophets, there is always a contrast between the righteous and the wicked. If the Word of God did not care for right or wrong, why would there be so many verses contrasting the righteous and the wicked? Quite simply that phrase uttered many times is a tool meant to silence brothers and sisters from expressing concerns. |
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#170 | |
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Nee/Lee/LSM's interpretation of the significance of the Tree of Life (ToL) vs. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (ToKoGE) is so totally out of whack it is an insult to God and all human intelligence. The ToKoGE does NOT represent discerning good and evil and acting on good rather than evil. It represents attempting to achieve righteousness apart from God. Thus it represents attempting to live a "good life" while remaining independent from God. It should NOT be taken to mean that recognizing and acting on what is right vs. what is wrong is somehow contrary to God. That idea is ridiculous and itself evil. Verse after verse in the Bible exhort us to do good and reject evil. God has given us several ways to discern good and evil: conscience, nature, intelligence, revelation and his Word, to mention some. The idea that there is some overriding principle called "life" which stands in opposition to all we know about good and evil, or if you feel "life" you can commit any evil with impunity, is not biblical, and, as I said, is itself evil. You can see the ugly fruit of it in the "Recovery." Once again we see how far "Recovery" thinking has taken LSM/LCers into the dark nether regions of thought, resulting, almost humorously, in outright stupidity. |
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#171 | |
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I was once personally thrashed by a barrage of punches, and nearly hospitalized, by an angry elder inside the meeting hall. Another elder, who witnessed the whole thing, actually leveled a fair amount of blame on me for "pushing his button." What was my crime? Not taking the blame for something I was not even involved with. What truly incited him was all the facts in my favor. I pray that LC leaders would one day realize what kind of bullies they have become, and how many of God's children they have hurt along the way while asserting their form of false authority.
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#172 | |
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Is there anyone who can counter with a degree of intelligence Igzy's words? Not brother Ron Kangas - he is, in fact, a prime example of reaching those "nether regions of thought;" and he along with many other Local Church leaders provide endless support for what Igzy has uttered. And, we don't know "the half" of it. Link from 2010 http://www.Hidinghistoryinthelordsre... AND WRONG.pdf “How many were lured away during the last rebellion (late 80s) by subtle issues of right and wrong” - RON KANGAS In referring to the talk going around in the church about these issues, RK said, “What a travesty that the saints of God would speak out of the knowledge of good and evil and kill each other.” He added, “I simply will not sit in a brother's presence and allow him to fill me with death,” meaning that he would not listen to saints concerned for right and wrong; yes, matters of "conscience, nature, intelligence, revelation and [the Word of God]...", to which Igzy submits is an "insult to God" and "outright stupidity". |
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#173 |
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Meaning being unwilling to listen to brothers and sisters under the headship of Christ. To ignore their conscience is akin to leaving the headship of Christ.
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#174 | |
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This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19 |
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#175 | |
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Man-up Ron! What have you got to lose? Have the decency to answer Steve Isitt. Remember you represent God's government on the earth today! Giterdone! ![]() |
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#176 | |
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While I agree that the scriptural mandate for Ron Kangas is to fellowship with Steve Isitt, it will never happen! Why? Simple. Like a grand jury investigation, sitting down with Isitt will force Kangas to examine events which occurred during past quarantines in the light of scriptures. The problems between Kangas and Isitt are not personal in nature. Isitt is considered a "man of death" by Kangas because he has attempted to factually, historically, and honestly examine our history in the Recovery. Doing this will expose Witness Lee, Phiip Lee, and Living Stream Ministry to numerous cases of corruption. This is what a fair evaluation of the facts of history shows us. Consider the non-scriptural allegations levied against all quarantined ex-members: writing books, doing their own work, allowing electric guitars, rebellion, speaking opinions, holding private conspiratorial meetings, etc. etc. Then as soon as the saints begin to understand how LSM hides the truth from them, LSM levies the most "serious" charge of all: division. But let's not mention how so many other men of God and Ministers Of The Age (MOTAs) have also brought "division" into the body of Christ. The great-grand-daddy of all Recovery MOTA's was Martin Luther, who brought division to the Catholic Church. The grand-daddy Brethren MOTA John Darby brought division to the Anglican Church (which was previously divided from the Catholic Church by King Henry VIII.) Then the father of modern MOTA's, Watchman Nee in China, brought division to the Methodist Church (which btw was also divided from the Anglican Church by John Wesley.) Zinzendorf, the supposed 18th century MOTA, a contemporary of Wesley, began by accepting cast-offs from all other churches, thus forming the Moravian Church, another new division. Thus to be charged with the high crime of "division," brings these outcast quarantined brothers into some seriously qualified company of spiritual giants, with the notable exception of the King of England. Isn't it amazing just how LSM loves to have things both ways? They exalt men of God for breaking away and starting something new, but then condemn their own contemporaries for identical actions. Reminds me of something the Lord Jesus once said ... “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" --Matt. 23.29-33
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#177 |
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Am I serious that Ron should man-up and have face-to-face fellowship with Steve Isitt? Yes! Do I think he will man-up? No! Manning-up is not Ron's strong suit. If it was he would have tried to oust Philip Lee from LSM or resign instead of working under him.
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#178 | |
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Phillip Lee's abuses - subtle issues of right and wrong. A brother being paid twice for the same work by a locality and LSM - subtle issues of right and wrong. LSM workers going into localities without local fellowship- subtle issues of right and wrong. Apparently what this all means is when it comes to the end justifying the means for LSM, "everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Quote is from Judges 21:25b. |
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#179 | ||
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But within the context of the entire Bible life is both right and good. They are not in opposition. God is life. God is righteous. God is good. This is accurate Biblical theology. So when your conscience speaks out against, for example, Philip Lee being declared Witness Lee's top coworker that we all must submit to or Witness Lee being right even if he's wrong that is God as life. It is not something in opposition to life as falsely taught by Witness Lee, Ron Kangas and those of that ilk. |
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#180 | |
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Ahhh...but now Witness Lee is dead and authority has apparently been transferred to a committee. And this committee at LSM HQ has the authority to overturn, revoke, overthrow and expire the authority of a coworker/apostle like Titus Chu. This governing body/committee/board is The Authority over all others in the LC system. If you are an elder or coworker and refuse to submit to this bunch then: Surprise - we overturned you're authority! Goodbye! |
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#181 | |
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![]() Martin Luther nailed 95 of them to the door of the Church at Wittenburg, and history turned. The Recovery claims to be the legacy of Luther, but actually it is the legacy of the religious powers that condemned him. I'm sure the Pope and his loyalists thought they were above those subtle (and no doubt irksome) issues of right and wrong, too. ![]() Subtle issues of right and wrong will be the end of Kangas and his fellow ostriches. Not, as he would like you to think, because they brought in death, but because they exposed their brazen unrighteousness. If they had any real sense of history this would have dawned on them. ![]() |
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#182 | |
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When a brother such as Steve has been offended by an elder or even a co-worker, ideally they should have their conflict resolved brother to brother with a unbiased brother serving as a witness. However in the local church culture, it's not 1-1, but 10-1. That's a wolf-pack environment. How do you expect a relationship to be reconciled in such an environment? There's no possibility of having an impartial witness, because all witnesses have partiality towards the elder/co-worker. With Ron and Steve, I would be no exception. Which is why my suggestion is to go to a non-LSM/LC Christian congregation and see if there's a brother willing to bear the responsibility as an impartial witness. Last edited by TLFisher; 10-14-2013 at 06:09 PM. Reason: Addition |
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#183 | |
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"In late December a brother in the church in Anaheim who had been severely damaged through the misconduct in LSM office was so traumatized psychologically that he sought revenge and took definite steps to execute a very grave act. (Thank God it never happened.) This came too the ears of one of the elders in Anaheim, who without any delay met with him to calm and divert him." Brothers, please stop misleading the saints. Make a distinction what is a subtle issue of right and wrong and what is blatant issue of right and wrong. Don't color all issues the same color as to minimize and trivialize issues and concerns brothers and sisters have. |
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#184 |
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“How many were lured away during the last rebellion (late 80's) by subtle issues of right and wrong.” Referring to the talk going around in the church about these issues, he said, “What a travesty that the saints of God would speak out of the knowledge of good and evil and kill each other.” He added, “I simply will not sit in a brothers’ presence and allow him to fill me with death,” meaning that he would not listen to those who were concerned with such issues of right and wrong in the church. -- Ron Kangas, LSM's chief theologian.
The real travesty here is the the distortion of facts and the attitude displayed by Ron Kangas years after these events occurred. At the time of these events, Kangas was the Senior Editor working at Living Stream Ministry under the management of Philip Lee, the "Office" Manager. Philip had recently molested a married sister in the church in Anaheim, and her irate husband wanted justice. The husband quickly learned that no one at LSM, including Witness Lee, cared one bit for his debased wife; neither for righteousness nor justice. Soon the whole church became outraged and became outspoken in their meetings. Were it not for John Ingalls' wise counsel, the brother probably would have killed Philip Lee. Don't you think the folks at LSM, especially the Lee family, would have appreciated Ingalls' intervention? On the contrary, Witness Lee started a smear campaign to discredit, not just the husband and his molested wife, but any brother who learned of these events and sought justice, including the church elders and deacons in Anaheim. The sorry details of Lee's smear campaign are recorded in Lee's disgusting book Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. The actual and true history of events was recorded in Ingalls' account Speaking the Truth in Love. For Ron Kangas back in the day to hear what his boss (Philip Lee) had done to that sister at LSM must have "filled him with death." Can you imagine the disgusting nausea traveling through his gastro-intestinal tract upon catching wind of these events? Kangas soon learned from Benson Philips and Ray Graver what to do when serious matters of corruption at LSM come to their attention -- just get up and leave the room, covering one's ears, and humming a hymn, lest one be adversely affected by "subtle issues of right and wrong." Hence Kangas emphatically states, “I simply will not sit in a brothers’ presence and allow him to fill me with death.” How convenient! Sounds more like the demeanor of a partisan bureaucrat than that of a servant of God.
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#185 | |
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#186 |
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Alwayslearning, the two terminologies regarding authority I have heard are "deputy authority" and "delegated authority". Seems delegated authority is at the local level and this delegated authority can be revoked if you are not man-honoring, placating, partial to the committee known as BB's.
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#187 |
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#188 | |
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An example of this was when John Ingalls, Bill Duane and Al Knoch were told in 1987 the Recovery Version translation work was henceforth to be under the direction of Philip Lee and they were to work from an office in LSM facilities. Since Philip Lee was a known quantity a red flag went up and they anticipated there would be problems due to his immature and erratic behavior. He loved to create drama out of thin air. And of course almost immediately there were problems and this work which had been quietly and effectively handled for years in Anaheim by these brothers was abruptly dismantled, uprooted and moved to Irving. Duane and Knoch were out and Ingalls was out of the day-to-day work but did some final review tasks until he resigned from it a year later. Kangas knew what Philip Lee was like and how he treated people and he didn't care. He didn't do a thing about it. He just kept working for the guy who unrelentingly abused God's people. And now he goes around saying what happened back in the late 1980s was about the "rebellious" ones eating of the wrong tree instead of turning a blind eye like he did. |
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#189 | |
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And of course this whole idea of a committee ousting apostles can be found no where in the NT. Even Andrew Yu in his weird little book writes: "Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned." A committee is not an authority. So if Titus Chu is a spiritual authority to others per their own words the fact can never be overturned. And yet there Andrew was with his big mouth open in Whistler helping to oust Titus. The hypocrisy of the LC system leadership knows no bounds! |
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#190 | |
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Someone could come onto this forum and wonder why there is such negative speaking directed at the ministry. Consider the ministry has such a negative past that has never been dealt with. LSM can only mislead the saints for so long before the lies and half-truths become unveiled. |
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#191 | |
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#192 |
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![]() Preface Dear Ron and Kerry, I am giving to you copies of a book that addresses your word in print concerning brother John Ingalls, written in 1989, called A Response to Recent Accusations. I don’t know how much you are concerned about any mistake you might have made in representing brother John, but brothers, your mistakes are numerous. There is the need, therefore, to bring this to your attention and, possibly, to the saints’ attention. You said in the book, "We wish to comment on two of John’s closing remarks. John says, 'if we have offended any of you saints, we ask you to please forgive us. We surely never intended to offend anyone of you.' On the one hand, offended saints should receive the grace to forgive from their hearts. To maintain a sweet, harmonious church life we need to forgive one another. On the other hand, John’s word 'If we have offended any of you saints' is somewhat disturbing for it is altogether too general and superficial and it displays a lack of consciousness of the grave offenses caused not only to saints but also to other churches. Certain things said and done in Anaheim since August 28, 1988, have caused damage and distress and should not be dealt with generally and superficially. There is the willingness to forgive but there should also be the willingness to repent." Brothers, what I will be addressing in my book is what you did not address in yours. You gave a slanted version of “certain things said and done in Anaheim” that caused “damage and distress”. You did not give the full story of what took place there. You left out vital detail that would give the saints the whole picture, the true scenes of the major factors of “damage and distress” in Anaheim, and also in the recovery. Although the truth of what happened in Anaheim remains hidden by the leadership, there are windows into the real situation. I would like to share about two such windows, as Philip Lin and Francis Ball allow some light to shine in on the subject. Philip Lin Comment Philip Lin, an Anaheim elder during the late eighties on the Chinese side, spoke honestly during the turmoil. A brother relates a time with him, "I recall a leaders’ meeting before a Sunday morning meeting in Anaheim during the late eighties turmoil. A few of us younger brothers who were learning to serve in the church, helping the elders, etc. were there and had been involved in such meetings for quite some time. I had asked the question: "Why should we let two brothers [Brother Lee & his son] who don't even come to the meetings wreak havoc on a church of over 500 people? Let's just ignore them and go on." Just after I asked it, Philip Lin walked in late. He asked what the question was that was asked and Godfred replied, "It was a very good question, and told me to ask it again. So I did, and this was Philip Lin’s almost verbatim response: "I know in my conscience you brothers are right according to the truth, but in my culture I must be loyal to Brother Lee." Of course he was not just referring to my question but to the overall situation, the 16 points the faithful elders had previously ministered, etc. Frankly, I appreciated and admired his honesty. It was so striking I still clearly remember it today." Francis Ball Comment The same brother relates a word from Francis, In a leaders meeting held in Rosemead during the Pasadena conference, Brother Lee was complaining about how much the church in Anaheim was mistreating him and his son and how much he and his family were suffering because of the church in Anaheim. At the end they had a question period so I got up to ask a few questions, stating something like, "I just wanted to preface my questions with a remark to clarify this issue publicly before all the brothers here so there is no misunderstanding. In fact, it is not the church in Anaheim causing suffering to Brother Lee and his family but it is Brother Lee and his son Philip that is causing suffering to the church in Anaheim. Now I have a couple of questions... In the Genesis life-studies you [Brother Lee] claimed that John So was a pillar in the church, and we should follow his example. In the Timothy training you turned to John Ingalls and declared publicly that he was your Timothy. But now that they disagree with you and your son, instead of accepting their fellowship you attempt to discredit them before others and cut them off. How could a pillar and Timothy so easily be cut off? Why would you treat these brothers in such a fashion?” … Then immediately after my questions the so-called "question and answer fellowship" part of the meeting ended, and Francis jumped up to abruptly end the meeting, shamelessly declaring that he was delighted to be an ostrich with his head in the sand. Shortly thereafter he was chosen as a replacement "elder" in Anaheim. . In other words, Ron and Kerry, there is another side of the story to the partial and superficial version put forth in your book and in other “official” writings and speakings of the church. It has been the habit, the practice, the tradition of our leadership in the recovery to be non-transparent concerning themselves and their failings. Blame is nearly always shifted to others; it is never placed on yourselves. In view of this, I urge you to read my book and consider what truly is an incredible “lack of consciousness of the grave offenses caused not only to saints but also to other churches”. “There is the willingness to forgive but there should also be the willingness to repent”, so you have advised John Ingalls to do. Brothers, so I urge you to do. This is not an attack, but an appeal to you to examine yourselves, for righteousness sake and for the good of all. Yours in Christ Jesus our Lord, Steve Isitt 2006 |
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#193 | |
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#194 | |
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"Now in my background brothers and sisters, I don't think that I designed some new carts or fabricated them very much, but I must admit to my shame I helped to pull them. And I regret that. I've repented about that. I've helped to pull the new cart. So what does that make me? A dumb ox? I'm sorry to say. Right? I've stumbled too. You know since that time I've believed I have gained a kind of phobia for new carts. New cart phobia. So, really! You know when I see something coming up, "let's do it this way". "I think that's the best technique", " the Best method". Whoa! That brings back some bitter memories. Really I'd like to run for my life. But, I just consider brothers and sisters, I really feel among Christians today too many new carts. Now in my background years ago we didn't call them new carts. Of course. But we used to call them "the flow". "This is this years flow". And next year we had another kind of flow. "Are you with the flow?" Well, it wasn't really a flow. But then that's what we called it. And then we called it "a move". "A new move". That was really a new cart. The result does not bring in Christ. The result is not the house of God being built. No, no! I surely can testify all these kind of new carts have damaged the people of God. They torn down the house of God. They were not profitable at all." |
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#195 | |
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One would hope "the work" in the LC system would be different but of course it isn't and never was. Those running LSM today are those who turned a blind eye and knew how to play slimy politics with Witness Lee and his son. They got their reward. And every time I think of them and I have to go and take a shower! |
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#196 | |
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Of course the elders are mere puppets to do and teach whatever their Regional and the MOTA tell them to. They have no say in the matter if they want to keep their position. So really the only authority they have is to blindly implement whatever comes down the pike from HQ and to make sure the locals are following along blindly without comment, opinion or - God forbid - a contrary thought spoken out loud! |
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#197 | |
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In the LC system there is NO such thing as ethics compliance. The very same decision makers in the LC system are products of a conflict of interest (the spirit versus the ministry). |
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#198 |
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You're touching on a subject I have long wondered what elders, deacons, co-workers really think. Are they really devoid of their conscience? I don't think so. I do believe why some responsible brothers have suffered mental anguish is tied directly to not speaking their contrary thoughts and keeping their contrary thoughts from being uttered.
Verbally they will say "I'm one with the brothers" or "I respect the feeling of the Body". It's the system that has kept them in one accord superficially because without the system and apart from Christ, there is no way to genuinely be in one accord. One Accord from the LSM/LC system is truly a facade. Once contrary thoughts are utttered, then you see brothers are not in really in one accord as they would like everyone else to see them as. |
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#199 | |
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#200 |
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![]() Eighteen Points Reconsidered CHAPTER 1 INTRODUCTION Two members of the current leadership in the Lord’s recovery wrote a book in 1989 of what they felt was a “careful scrutiny” of the challenging words spoken by John Ingalls on March 19, 1989 when John notified the church of his decision to withdraw from the eldership of the church in Anaheim. Ron Kangas and Kerry Robichaux stated in the first chapter, “In our response, we will examine brother John’s opening remarks, his eighteen numbered points, and his closing words” (p. 7). “Those who are inclined to believe John’s word and follow him would do well to consider seriously what the basis of his speaking is and whether this basis is trustworthy” (p. 9). The Basis of Speaking Likewise, we would do well to consider seriously what the basis of Ron and Kerry’s speaking was in their book, A Response to Recent Accusations (1989), and whether or not their speaking is a fair and accurate portrayal of the former prominent co-worker and elder, John Ingalls. They wrote in the preface, "Since the material in this document concerns an event that took place in the church in Anaheim and since we, the authors, do not live in Anaheim, we believe that it is appropriate for us to state our grounds for writing this material. First, we are organic members of the Body of Christ, and what took place in Anaheim was not only a local matter but also a Body matter. For this reason, it is a matter that concerns us and affects us. Second, the speaking of John Ingalls was transcribed, edited, and distributed. His word has spread beyond his locality, and this word has been brought to our attention. Third, since John’s speaking is actually an attack on Brother Lee and his ministry and on all the churches and saints who continue to receive this ministry, we felt responsible to respond to this attack for the sake of our brother, the churches, and the saints. Fourth, because John’s speaking is subtle and deceptive, some of the saints may appreciate help in discerning the nature and character of this speaking. Finally, John’s speaking presents a distorted picture of the Lord’s recovery and of the Lord’s up-to-date move in His recovery. It is necessary that this distortion be exposed and refuted and that a word of truth be given. In view of the foregoing, we have prepared this analysis of and response to John Ingalls’ speaking." (end quote) Was Their Speaking Trustworthy? We must be careful people when we represent others. According to our history in the recovery, since 1984 at least, our leadership has been anything but careful in this regard. A prime example of misrepresentation of others is found in the book, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, which tells a slanted version of the story of what happened in the local churches in the late eighties that brought division into the Lord’s recovery. That book, though it is a book of defamation, has been accepted among the churches as the official story of the so-called rebellion of former leading ones, including John Ingalls as a supposed ringleader of a conspiracy to take over the recovery. Its claims were based, not on substantial evidence, but upon suspicion and imagination. It is similar to Ron and Kerry’s book in that regard. Both books feature the ugly smearing of John Ingalls, with Ron and Kerry’s book focusing only on him, not including other brothers as FPR does. In this current atmosphere of litigation over defamation against the local churches and Witness Lee in a few obscure pages of an obscure book, it behooves us who do not want to be responsible ourselves for defamation of character to consider the far more serious cases we have among us in the churches that have had a vastly more profound impact on the recovery than that which is now costing the churches millions of dollars to litigate. The Lord is no respecter of persons. If false witness has been borne in these two books by brothers of repute, the churches should be informed about this and the saints should be advised to destroy the books, and thorough repentances among us ensue. Deviating from the Path in the Lord’s Recovery is a book that deals with the inaccuracies, unfairness, and outright falsehoods found in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. This book deals with Ron and Kerry’s book, A Response to Recent Accusations and its misrepresentations of John Ingalls. A Knee-Jerk Reaction One element involved in being careful in representing others is to investigate, to research. Did Ron and Kerry do this? Or, was their writing a quick, knee-jerk reaction, based on the appearance of rebellion, with very little research applied, if any at all. As they said, they were not even in the church in Anaheim; therefore, they did not have the experience and perspective that John Ingalls had. Neither did they fellowship thoroughly with him or with the other Anaheim elders to learn the facts from them. John Ingalls, however, was in the same locality as Witness Lee and his son who were causing serious problems in Anaheim that outsiders had no way to understand without thorough investigation. John Ingalls, as the leading elder in Anaheim had responsibility for the oversight of the church and conscientiously sought out fellowship with Brother Lee. After many unproductive sessions with Brother Lee to deal with the problems, and after unsavory developments took place in Anaheim, and after a group of brothers declared that they would not follow John’s leadership, John felt that it was best for him to resign from the eldership. At the time he announced his resignation, he also gave a rather short and concise word to the church about his concerns, which became the object of rebuttal by Ron and Kerry in their book. The Five Points Ron and Kerry used five points as their basis for speaking. Let us look at those five points and “consider seriously what the basis of [their] speaking is and whether this basis is trustworthy”. 1) They felt that since they were members of the organic Body of Christ and that what took place in Anaheim was not merely a local matter but also a Body matter, that it was then something that concerned them and affected them in their locality, Irving, Texas. Yes, whatever happened in Anaheim, was not merely a local matter but a Body matter. But what actually did take place in Anaheim? What happened that brought John to the point of resigning from the eldership? Ron and Kerry didn’t touch this important matter. Further, what was happening in other localities that alarmed John, and his fellow elders, that contributed to John’s concern for Anaheim? This information is not documented in the book offered by the Irving brothers. They left out crucial background information in their book, making John appear in the worst light to their readers. John’s decision to resign did not happen overnight. There was a long process leading to his decision. He did have a strong basis to resign from the eldership, and had initially planned to continue in fellowship with the church just as a brother. Without this strong basis, he would have had nothing to say and would not have resigned. Did Ron Kangas take the time to consider John’s experience and the paradigm from which he spoke? Or did he just take the hard-core line established among the leadership in the local churches that condemns anything that appears to be an attack and anyone who appears to be attacking? The following word by Witness Lee reveals the character trait needed to appropriate truth, that is, if someone actually is seeking the truth. "He should be deep, not superficial, when representing other people, matters, or the church". The brothers from Irving did not have this trait during the writing of their book. They, therefore, came to quick, disparaging, and unthoughtful conclusions that were simply in line with the “one accord” movement in the churches. Deep—Searching Downward and Digging Deeper, Not Being Superficial "The book of proverbs says that a foolish person is a shallow person. The observation of a shallow person is not accurate. His understanding of the church, people, matters, and things is superficial. Being deep is closely related to being thorough and serious. A shallow person always makes superficial observations, whereas a deep person always searches and digs when he looks at things." "We should not draw conclusions quickly concerning people or matters." (Character, W. L. p. 22-23). 2) Ron and Kerry said John’s speaking was printed and distributed, spread beyond his locality and that this spreading and speaking was brought to their attention. Since John’s word concerned them, they responded by writing a book and distributing it in 1989. Likewise, their book came to my attention in 2002, and it concerns me. Because I believe their work was superficial and lacked a sufficient knowledge base for representing John Ingalls, I am responding to give the background and present the facts that they did not, or would not, offer. 3) Ron and Kerry alleged that John’s speaking was actually an attack on Brother Lee and his ministry and on the churches and saints who continue to receive this ministry. In the five-year period I have researched and studied the events and concerns of the late eighties turmoil, I never had the impression John Ingalls was attacking anyone or anything. He certainly was addressing and responding to negative developments in the recovery and chose to speak according to his conviction with the saints and the churches. However, I do have the registration within that he has been attacked and maligned and misrepresented by a host of brothers, including brothers Ron Kangas and Kerry Robichaux. To tell the saints that John’s speaking was an attack on Brother Lee and his ministry is a common attack by LSM-oriented brothers on those who differ from their view and who speak accordingly. Truth is not the object with brothers like Ron and Kerry. Whether or not one is speaking the truth on a given matter is not what concerns them. Their concern is the “one accord”. They want others to line up with the leadership, right or wrong, “take the cross to their own opinion”, “submit to the ruling ones” and “not make an issue about anything”. John Ingalls wasn’t attacking, but was speaking according to his conviction of heart before the Lord and the saints. Do Ron and Kerry feel that they were not attacking John’s person to assert otherwise in making the following evaluation of him and his speaking?: “Since John’s speaking is actually an attack on Brother Lee and his ministry and on all the churches and saints who continue to receive this ministry, we felt responsible to respond to this attack.” Ron and Kerry did as LSM-trained brothers do: they protect the image of Brother Lee at any cost in order to preserve his ministry and maintain their “one accord”. 4) Ron and Kerry said that John’s speaking was subtle and deceptive and that they wanted to help the saints discern the nature and character of his speaking. But how can these two brothers help the saints when they don’t tell them the whole story, or know the whole story themselves? With insufficient knowledge, they themselves cannot discern the nature and character of his speaking. 5) Ron and Kerry felt that John’s speaking presented a distorted picture of the Lord’s recovery and of the Lord’s up-to-date move in His recovery. They felt it was necessary to expose and refute “this distortion” and that a word of truth should be given. Having thoroughly considered both sides of the matter, it isn’t John Ingalls who gave a distorted picture of the Lord’s recovery; rather, he spoke honestly and faithfully. However, Ron Kangas and Kerry Robichaux have given a much distorted picture of John Ingalls in their analysis and response to John’s speaking. I ask Ron and Kerry to consider the facts about John, the church in Anaheim, and the recovery in those years of turmoil, 1986-1989, and to be willing to adjust their concept accordingly. |
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#201 | |
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http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...servidores.mp3 If Ron's speaking of you, was not because he wasn't personally offended what then? Ron had the opportunity to mention Bill Mallon by name at that conference and did not. Ron had opportunity to mention Bill Freeman by name at the November 2012 Puget Sound Blending conference and did not. What makes you so special for Ron to mention you specifically by name at an international conference if it was not due to being offended by your critique of his book? |
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#202 | |
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If that were not so, Steve would not even know that he was a "man of death." ![]() Despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, LSM does not actually love the "truth," rather it is only those exhausting doctrines of Witness Lee that they love.
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#203 | |
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Once any fair-minded reader compares their version of events with John Ingalls' Speaking the Truth in Love, the truth is readily apparent. I have corresponded with numerous members of the Recovery who have told me as much. They accepted Lee's reporting of events based on his reputation at the time, and because that's all they knew.
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#204 | |
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#205 | |
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Seriously? Do they really think people who know what actually went on are that naive or stupid? We know you were just jerking us around. We know you are paid to write advertorials and polemics for your MOTA. We know you are mere pseudo-scholars who's job it is to regurgitate Witness Lee materials ad nauseum - both then and now. And that is why we lost all respect for you and those of your stripe. |
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#206 | |
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I have severe reservation whether or not local/extra-local authorities are under the headship of Christ. If they are, there would be far more instances of accountability to brothers and sisters instead of being puppets of the ministry. |
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#207 | |
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This is the kind of spiritual gobbledygook that makes me want to puke. During those quarantines, LSM just produced endless rigmarole in tracts and websites in the guise of "spiritual" principles. They have become masters at spiritual doubletalk, using long-winded esoterica to both impress and silence their members into submission. Can you believe that their members are actually convinced that "coming back to the pure word of God" is a tactic of the enemy?
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#208 | |
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For decades LSM's co-workers (so-called blended brothers) have used indirect speaking, innuendos, and veiled speaking to undermine the ministry of Titus Chu. Eventually they came out and eliminated TC by quarantining him. They made him a "marked man" among their membership.
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#209 |
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That's part of the Isaiah 5:20 culture of the recovery. It's upside down when you as a brother or sister could be marked for wanting to prophesy from the Bible instead of the HWFMR.
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#210 | |
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As it is Living Stream Ministry becomes the common denominator if a matter is to considered local or extra-local. |
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#211 |
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![]() CHAPTER 2 John’s Opening Remarks Ron and Kerry say, “The basis of John’s speaking here is not the Word of God, the leading of the Spirit, or the sense of the Body. The basis of his remarks on this occasion is his own personal, subjective feelings and opinions” (p. 9). They say further that he presumed to be the “spokesman for the recovery or for the church in Anaheim or for the elders of the church or for the saints” (p. 9) Actually, John did speak according to his convictions, which were surely based on the Word of God, the leading of the Spirit, and according to the sense of the Body, since many felt as he did, not only in Anaheim but wherever John traveled. As far as being a spokesman, why would John not speak out since he was indeed speaking according to the Word, the Spirit’s leading, and the sense that he and many others had in the Body? Seven months before John’s resignation, John and Godfred Otuteye presented to the church in Anaheim similar points as John did at the time of his resignation. Some saints responded positively; some negatively, so the church was already familiar with the points John gave at the time of his resignation and he knew the feeling of the saints. Fellow elders Godfred and Al Knoch had the same sense and leading as John. They were in agreement with his fellowship, as were many in the church he represented. He was, therefore, a spokesman for others’ concerns in Anaheim, as well for his own. (p. 13) He also represented those in other places, speaking on their behalf at his resignation. Conferences in Charlotte and Miami "On Easter weekend, April 1-3, 1988, the church in Charlotte, N. C. invited me to come and share the word of the Lord. I did so. Many saints representing the churches in North and South Carolina plus some from Virginia and Georgia gathered for the conference. I ministered to them concerning the Lord’s word to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, mentioning nothing whatever of the problems we had encountered. We emphasized the need of coming back to the beginning, as the Apostle John emphasized in his ministry, back to Christ as the tree of life and back to our first love for Him. "A number of brothers in North Carolina – in Charlotte, Greensboro, Chapel Hill, and Raleigh – already had very much the same concerns as we had, and we fellowshipped with them outside the conference meetings regarding our situation in the work, the ministry office, and the churches. We also talked with Brother John Little, who came there from Nashville, about some of the present problems, and he was very open to us, agreeing at that time with all our concerns regarding the present situation in the work, the ministry office, and the churches. We were burdened to open to him since we had known him well for many years and wanted him to know how we felt. At the end of April 1988 I was invited to come to Miami, Florida, for a conference with the churches in Southern Florida. It was held April 29th through May 1st. I spoke there again on the Lord’s word to the seven churches, but in a different way, this time emphasizing the practicality and spirituality of the local churches: the practicality being embodied in the local nature of the church, and the spirituality in the three matters of love, life, and light, so stressed in John’s ministry. Concerning the practicality, I emphasized the need for local administration in every church balanced with mutual fellowship together among all the churches. Further Conferences "During the months of May and June 1988 I was asked to minister in a number of places, in almost all of which I was burdened to share from the Lord’s word to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3. We emphasized the need to come back to the beginning, saying that the way for us to go on is to come back – back to the living person of Christ as the tree of life. We also spoke in some places concerning the need for local administration in the churches to preserve the Lord’s headship as we did in Miami. Some saints who were in these conferences were disturbed because we were not speaking exactly the same things as Brother Lee concerning the “new way”, although we certainly were not teaching anything different from God’s economy, Christ and the church. "The brothers in Orange County, California, were desirous of having a conference and arranged for one meeting to be held in Long Beach (Friday night), another in Huntington Beach (Saturday night), and the last in Irvine (Lord’s Day evening). This transpired over the weekend of June 3-5, 1988. The Lord’s blessing was on these meetings as we spoke here locally the same as we had spoken in other churches elsewhere: coming back to the beginning, Christ as our unique Head and center, and local administration and universal mutual fellowship. In Irvine we also stressed the need of all the saints to feed richly on the Word of God for the building up of the church. "Attending the conference meeting in Irvine were Joseph Fung of Hong Kong and Paul Ma of Santa Cruz, California. It was the first time I had seen these brothers in years and I did not know just where they stood in regard to the concerns we had. They, on the other hand, did not know where I stood. They asked to have a time of fellowship with me the next day, Monday, June 6th, at which time I testified to them what we realized and passed through in recent months. They fully echoed our concerns. I was impressed to learn that Joseph Fung, as well as many others in the Far East had the same burden and realization as we had. This was an encouragement and strengthening. "The brothers in Anaheim wanted me to share the Word in a little conference there. This I did in two meetings, Saturday evening and the Lord’s Day morning, June 18th and 19th. On Saturday evening we ministered from Ezra on leaving Babylon (which had been manifested in the confusion, division, and depression among us in Anaheim) and returning to Jerusalem to build the house of the Lord. There was a strong sense of the Lord’s speaking and presence, and the sharings of the saints were excellent and very inspiring." John Ingalls had traveled among the churches and found out the feeling of the elders and saints in many places. He had fellowship with them in order to know their real situation and condition. Ron and Kerry did not have this experience. They did not have John’s exposure to the churches or his function in the Body. They were instead LSM employees working long hours to produce ministry-related materials for the churches. They, therefore, would not have the same feeling and opinion that John had. Based on his fellowship with others in the recovery and his sense within, John Ingalls spoke at his resignation not only voicing his own concerns but also those of many saints in the churches, and he did so according to the Word and the leading of the Spirit. The claims of Ron and Kerry, therefore, were absolutely false. Steve Isitt Oct 22, 2013
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#212 | |
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Whenever an elder or minister began to speak his conscience for the Lord according to the leading of the Spirit, he was immediately disqualified by Lee and his minions for "doing his own thing, having his own work, speaking for himself out of subjective feelings, or that he presumes to be a spokesman for the whole Recovery." These are supposed to be "serious sins" to God. But, think about it. These exact same condemnations can be spoken about each and every prophet sent by God to his people of old. This mindset exists only because the Recovery for decades has been inundated and indoctrinated with the thought that God has one and only one spokesman at any time. Thus, if the saints in Anaheim listen to the heartfelt concerns of John Ingalls and their other elders, then automatically, in the minds of the Recovery faithful, John Ingalls must be rebelling against God and Witness Lee, and must be ambitious to be himself the next sole MOTA on earth. Today this sounds absolutely ridiculous as I write it, but this is the group think I was a part of for many years. This describes the mental framework of every blended brother and LSM adherent. But is this the pattern of the scripture? Did not the Lord appoint Twelve Apostles, and added others like Paul, as Acts unfolded? Did not Jesus while on earth repudiate the thought that any one of them would be the greatest? Was it not the deformed and heretical church in Rome which first presented us with with Peter, the first Pope, the Vicar of Christ, the Holy See, the Oracle of God, the spokesman for the body of Christ? It's now so disgusting for me to consider that I once swallowed and supported this nonsense. The very thought of a MOTA/Pope directly contradicts at least half of the New Testament. Read your Bible folks!
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#213 | |
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Thanks for quoted material Steve. I think that it gives the very basis for all of the writings that go on here on this and other similar web-sites, and of the grounds that others, including a number of Biblical scholars, have had for various writings concerning the LRC.
Let's take a closer look. Quote:
Second, the speakings of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, Titus Chu, Ron Kangus, and so many others have been transcribed, published, and circulated far beyond the confines of the hidey-hole of the so-called Recovery. It has been brought to our attention. Third, so much of the speaking of these and other men has been an attack on the ministries of many faithful servants of Christ and on the millions of brothers and sisters, called saints in the scripture. We feel to respond on behalf of these, our churches, and the saints who populate them. Fourth, because the speaking of these men from the LRC is subtle and deceptive, some of the saints may appreciate help in discerning the nature and character of this speaking. (It is amazing how perfectly their own words fit exactly as written.) Fifth (and finally), their speaking presents a distorted picture of those millions of Christians and their assemblies. It also presents a distorted picture of the so-called "Lord's recovery," daring to call itself the "Lord's up-to-date move in His recovery," and both by open and hidden exclusion, intend that such term only applies to themselves. "It is necessary that this distortion be exposed and refuted and that a word of truth be given. In view of the foregoing, we" will continue to prepare and submit analysis and response to the deception that parades among God's people as the only true representation of the church. One less than stellar take on the nonsense that comes from Benson. Unfortunately, I do not expect that a new version of the Jerusalem conference would find Benson back-peddling as James did (if he was actually the source of the problem). Instead, he would be the strongest to assert that his modern-day Judaizers are the core of "the Lord's recovery" and "God's move on the earth." But that god is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is not the God of Israel and the one who became flesh and dwelt among us. That god is a poor substitute. One that should have been torn down and burned with the Baals and other idols.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#214 | |
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I was asked via PM to clarify what the last two paragraphs of my previous post meant. To bring it closer, I have repeated them here.
Quote:
The references to the Jerusalem conference require some consideration. There are some parallels. Benson has typically been seen as the one behind the curtain for so long. Sometimes out front speaking himself, but even when he does speak, it appears that he is capable of giving a virtually verbatim Lee message (though I doubt he can get the inflections right). So the parallel is to James. But unlike James, Benson clearly is the leader of the kinds of things that get published, pushed, etc. James might have been given the attribution for source only because he was the leader back in Jerusalem and the troublemakers in the gentile world were claiming to be emissaries of Jerusalem, and therefore from James. When you come to the actual meeting, while James was clearly in the lead, he did not do as would be expected if he had been Lee or even Benson. He did not spit on some letter written by Paul or just say "suck it up and get circumcised" or other such nonsense. He lead a thoughtful and prayerful group that weighed the evidence, the scriptures, what they knew of the speaking of Jesus, and then prayed and concluded that people should generally leave the gentiles alone with respect to the Jewish law. But Nee and Lee created a hyper law within Christianity that is referred to by such names as "the Lord's recovery," "the local churches," and to others "the church of Lee," or "the Lord's recovery church" (thus LRC). And his speaking internally was to constantly belittle those that do not adhere to his rules, such as one church per city (his), a Minister of the Age (him), etc. Referring to everyone else as "poor degraded Christianity" or "mooing cows." Given the attempt to reach outside of their sect (cult?) with their excessively footnoted bible and other means, it would seem that there is much that "comes from Lee" (or did) and now "comes from Benson." When they refer to their sect — a sect among the most divisive among Christians — as holding private title to "God's move on the earth" then it is clear that, in some sense, they do not serve the same God that we do. I do not say (as Justyn would back on the Berean forum) that this makes then not Christian. But in these kinds of positions — as well as many other extreme and novel teachings — they are not following the true God, but some other god. Maybe the god they are following is Lee. I'm beginning to be more and more sure that was who Lee himself was following. His own private rewrite of scripture to fit his own goals and thoughts. Seems that Mohammed had already done that back in the earlier centuries. Lee just managed to keep his version connected with Christianity. I'm stepping on some toes. Toes of people I love dearly. Family. People that I know to be solid Christians. But Christians blinded into following such error that no matter what you think about the Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and even the Catholics, they at least center on Christ. The LRC speaks a lot about Christ. But they mostly speak about Lee. Whatever he said years ago that got repackaged into the latest Lee-stew book, or HWMR. I wish there was some way to excise the Lee-leaven out of the LRC because so many of the people are an otherwise good Christian community. I'm afraid that it is nearly impossible because any kind of slow picking at the scabs will just cause the errors to be the focus for so long. Better to jump ship, try to get along with some mainstream Christian group, and deal with each Leeism at it rears its head up. Within a healthier environment there is the hope that truth can be found. From within . . . well, it is like Lee's garlic room. It is virtually impossible to smell the stench after so long a time.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#215 | |
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When you sell out your conscience for the LSM system, LSM is the lower case god so many precious saints dearly love. The ministry becomes the basis for receiving fellow brothers and sisters which results in division. "If you're not for the ministry, don't waste my time" some might say. Living Stream Ministry has looked the other way when it came to an adulterous office manager. LSM is a ministry that has strengthened the hands of evildoers by calling the true prophets false through their endless quarantines and character assassinations. “Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood; And they strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one has turned back from his wickedness. All of them have become to Me like Sodom, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah." Jeremiah 23:14 |
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#216 |
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![]() Opening Remarks continued The Accusation that Our Practice Does Not At All Match Our Teaching Ron and Kerry’s keen intellects were very much engaged in their critique of John Ingalls. In their “careful scrutiny” they picked John’s accusations apart, such as “Our practice does not at all match our teaching”. Having more heart and more understanding of the essential message John was trying to convey would have helped Ron and Kerry in their judgment of him. But they cared for scrutinizing the letter of his word, rather than hearing his heart and his spirit. They said, Please notice the our here. It clearly indicates that John is presuming to speak on behalf of the whole recovery, including all the churches, with all the saints. The word practice denotes the totality of the practices in the local churches; it refers to the whole of the practice in the Lord’s recovery. Then we have the extremely crucial words not at all. These words mean exactly what they say; they are part of an absolute, universal, and exclusive statement, a statement that applies everywhere and at all times and that allows for no exceptions…Is it not evident that John’s statement is far from accurate? Instead of saying that our practice has not at all matched our teaching, John could have said something more moderate and temperate. He could have said, “Our practice is deficient”, or “certain of our practices have not been wholly in keeping with some of our teachings” (p. 10-11). Yes, that would have been better. Sometimes we overstate things to make a point. Brother Lee was always doing this. Always. He made statements such as, “Nowhere in the recovery is there a proper vital group”. Or, “There is not one case that any leader who has left the recovery has prospered spiritually”. These are absolute statements, but he is just trying to say the vital groups are not doing well and that former leaders have not prospered since leaving the recovery. He tries to make these points. Ron and Kerry got carried away in their scrutiny. They over-scrutinized throughout their book. If they had transferred their scrutinizing exercise of the letter of John’s word to engaging in a proper investigative exercise of John’s burden, they would have understood John. John meant that he was concerned for our practice and this especially was so after having had much fellowship with other churches in the U. S. and having heard of serious problems overseas. His speaking as he did at his resignation was not as Ron and Kerry say in their book, “his personal views”, as if he alone had these views. There was a consensus among many responsible brothers that our practice was seriously not in line with our teaching. John shares, "During the months of October and November 1987 the elders in Anaheim met regularly with the other elders in Orange County. We expressed to them our burden concerning the low condition of the churches and the need for the revival of our vision and some of the basic things of life. Others shared similar things. "…A few days later Benson desired to meet with some of the elders representing churches in the area. A lunch was arranged in a nearby restaurant to be followed by fellowship. Present at the meeting were Benson, Dan Towle, Dan Leslie, Ken Unger, Ned Nossaman, Dick Taylor, Frank Scavo, Godfred Otuteye, Al Knoch, and John Ingalls. During the fellowship the brothers began to question Benson concerning current events with the full-timers and the Living Stream Office and the prospects for the church’s relationship with the full-timers. The involvement of the LSM office and its management was a real concern. Benson found it very difficult to answer the brothers’ questions and was alarmed at the attitude of the brothers toward the LSM office. He remarked that the atmosphere in Orange County had changed, and he was bothered. We also were greatly bothered." Factors of Problem and Concern John Ingalls wrote about the factors of problem and concern that he and other brothers had in Southern California that: 1) “the work and the ministry was being promoted and given a place of undue preeminence and centrality.” 2) “the burden of the ministry to find a way to preach the gospel and increase the numbers dramatically led to an inordinate emphasis on numbers and increase, with a great stress on budgets, goals, plans, methods, and ways, coupled with predictions of millions being baptized over a period of several years… but the fervor was beginning to diminish and many saints were left languishing.” 3) “numerous examples of the growing influence and control of the LSM office over churches, elders, co-workers, and the full-time training in Taiwan were an intolerable and unscriptural situation”. 4) “the aberrational speaking and activity in the FTTT was alarming… nothing more than the fact that Philip Lee was the administrator of the training… he was in daily fellowship with twenty-four of the trainers and leading ones who called and reported to him all activities (failure to do so resulted in an offense). The trainees were even told that Philip was administrating the training. His power and position were growing immeasurably”. 5) “the matter of serious misconduct related to the personnel in the LSM office could smear the Lord’s testimony and damage Brother Lee’s ministry”. John’s statement, “Our practice does not at all match our teaching” had merit. All that is needed is an “ear to hear” and a heart to know the heavy matters that weighed on John, and on many others. |
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#217 | |
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“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"
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#218 | |
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“Our practice is deficient” "certain of our practices have not been wholly in keeping with some of our teachings" Had Ron and Kerry thought John didn't have merit on any point, why would they suggest it would have been better for John to avoid absoluteness by speaking more moderate and temperate? |
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#219 |
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![]() Opening Remarks continued The Accusation that the Lord’s Recovery Has Changed in Its Nature Ron and Kerry say on page 11, “With [John’s] personal feelings as the basis, John says not only that none of our practices matches our teaching; he even goes so far as to say that the nature of the Lord’s recovery has changed. ‘I also began to realize,’ John tells us, ‘that the nature of what we call the Lord’s recovery has changed’. Here John simply makes the accusation; he doesn’t support it…If John persists in his view, having neither a change of mind nor of attitude, he may take himself out of the divine stream, the flowing of the Triune God, which he once so dearly cherished.” What flowing of the Triune God? There was dissension, division, and saints leaving the churches due to the change in nature that John refers to. There was no flow of the Triune God. Brother Lee spoke to this matter again and again for several years, especially in elders’ meetings, making statements, such as, “We all have to hate deadness, lukewarmness and barrenness. We must seek to be vitalized in desperation, considering this to be a matter of life or death”; “We may feel that we have been enjoying the Lord every day, but a tree is known according to its fruit. The real church life can be evidenced only by fruitbearing”; “As I have said before, the spirit of not shepherding and seeking others and being without love and forgiveness is spreading in the recovery everywhere. I believe that not having the Father’s loving and forgiving heart and not having the Savior’s shepherding and seeking spirit is the reason for our barrenness. I realize that you all work hard, but there is almost no fruit. The Lord says, ‘By the fruit the tree is known’ (Matt. 12:33), but we are a tree without any fruit.” “Everywhere among us barrenness is very prevailing”; and “the Lord’s recovery in the United States has come to a point where we cannot go on further without the shepherding.” These are representative examples of much more speaking along these lines after the new way began, as well as before. (See A Word of Love) The question is why were the churches in such a condition? John realized that there was really no flow, and he searched for the answers. He, and others, were not without spiritual discernment and began to address the idea that there had been a change in nature to the Lord’s recovery. Godfred John relates a conversation he witnessed between Brother Lee and Godfred that begins to tell the story of the change in nature. The Center of the Church "The next afternoon, Friday, August 26th, I joined Godfred and Al at Brother Lee’s home. Godfred spoke strongly, asking Brother Lee first if he had spoken anything against us recently. He replied that he had not. Then Godfred reasoned with him: How is it that you speak against autonomy, considering that a problem, but you will not deal with the problems that we brought to your attention. Godfred spoke earnestly and impressively. He said, “the center of the church should be Christ, but He has been replaced by you and your ministry.” Brother Lee was touched by what Godfred said, and perhaps considering that what he had just alleged afforded some light for clearing up the problem, he said, “I like to hear that.” I recall the scene vividly, and his words still echo in my ears. It seemed that this time Brother Lee appreciated the frank fellowship and was trying to warm up to us. But we could not seem to make any real progress. Brother Lee remarked that everything that had happened in Europe, which had cause so great a problem between the churches and the Living Stream Ministry was just a misunderstanding. After the meeting Godfred told us that he wanted to leave the eldership and was fully disgusted with the whole situation." Two Senior Co-Workers From Taiwan The following excerpt from John Ingalls’ book explains what is meant by the recovery changing in nature, as expressed in a conversation John had with two senior co-workers from Taiwan. John was not merely giving his own personal views in his resignation talk, but the shared views that he had with senior co-workers and many elders and saints in the Lord’s recovery. There was a feeling in the Body about the change in nature. John continues "I would like now to record some of the comments made by Brother Jeng Guang Ming. He spoke as follows: 'We co-workers in the past have not had genuine fellowship among us concerning any questionable practices in the churches due to the prevailing concept that we should have no opinion, but rather just listen and submit. Brother Lee has related his experience and attitude toward Brother Nee in order to kill all opinions as well as all feelings and concerns. But our genuine fellowship is in sharing the feelings the Lord gives us, and in this we discover the leading of the Holy Spirit.' the brother continues "I very much treasure Acts 13, where the Holy Spirit spoke, 'separate unto me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.' I believe that the speaking of the Holy Spirit to the brothers there in Antioch must have been through the genuine fellowship of the feelings which the Holy Spirit Himself gave to them. The same thing occurred in Acts 15. As long as the Holy Spirit speaks among us there will be no problem. But we don’t have today the leading of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 13 and 15, a leading in fellowship, a subjective leading manifested by each one speaking his own feeling before the Lord. The plurality gives the Holy Spirit opportunity. If we emphasize the one leadership so much how can the Holy Spirit have opportunity? The Spirit’s leading in the Body is in the prayer and fellowship of all. The kind of submission being practiced today kills the move of the Holy Spirit in the churches through the genuine fellowship among the saints. We have no intention to rebel or overthrow Brother Lee. We have suppressed our feeling for many years, though we sensed there were many points of deviation. In Taiwan Brother Chu [Shun Min] and I had no such fellowship concerning the abnormal situation in the churches today as we now have. We feel that the genuine fellowship must be like that recorded in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, where the Lord did not refrain from pointing out the negative aspects as well as the positive, the real situation. One basic item of the change in nature in the Lord’s recovery is that it appears the Lord’s work has become Brother Lee’s work; the churches have become Brother Lee’s churches; and the Lord’s workers have become Brother Lee’s workers. All things have become personalized, and everything appears to require Brother Lee’s approval to be legitimate. He can acknowledge and he can also deny the validity of the Lord’s workers, elders, and even churches. This concept has been injected to all the brothers and sisters, particularly those who have a heart for the Lord. Brother Chu Shun Min then told me how that on April 1, 1988, he had a conversation with Brother Lee in the Bay Area. He presented a number of serious concerns to Brother Lee and asked him to bring all these things to the Lord. Brother Chu told me that Brother Lee listened quietly and passively to all his points (with one exception), making no comment, neither admitting nor denying. The exception was a point he made concerning Brother Lee’s son, Philip Lee. In conclusion, Brother Chu told Brother Lee, “All the sweet feeling we had in the past is lost. All the rest in our spirit is over". John Ingalls "I will mention just a few more comments made by Brother Chu. He said that he feels very sorry for the present state of things – he gave his whole life to this. He has received letters from elderly ones in Taipei that are full of blood and tears. There are very few elderly ones there who are not discouraged or withdrawn. The warfare now is fiercer than in Watchman Nee’s day when the issue was that of leaving the denominations. We are at a critical juncture. We cannot be silent regarding the change of nature in the Lord’s recovery. We should have no part in it. This is a day for further recovery. We need a new beginning to recover us back from the change of nature to the Lord’s original intention. We must discard all the changes of nature. The main direction is to come out of the system; it cannot change. Realizations Previous to meeting with the two senior co-workers, John met with other brothers. "In those days I had further fellowship with Godfred and with some of the brothers we had contacted, with whom we had intimate fellowship through the years concerning the Lord’s work. We realized that the spiritual condition of the churches throughout the United States and in other places, generally speaking, was very poor, very low. We searched for the reason. Something was radically wrong. The Lord’s blessing was not among us. Life was at a very low ebb. In a number of places there was considerable discord and dissension, and instead of a steady increase in numbers, there was a steady decrease. We began to realize then that there were practices and tendencies among us that we had never considered before. And, we ourselves as well as others were responsible, having participated in these. But we had not seen clearly or realized previously what was being done. Thus we began to come to some conclusions. I believe that the first was that the ministry was being given a place above the churches. It was being too highly exalted and emphasized, so that it became imperative for every church now to manifest that they were “for the ministry” and to “serve the ministry”. It was no longer, as we were often told, that the ministry was for the churches and that only the churches should be built up; rather the churches now should be for the ministry, and the ministry was being built up. We felt that we should voice such a concern to Brother Lee. About the second week of October we began to fellowship with Dan Towle, an elder in the church in Fullerton and a trainer from the full-time training in Taipei, who was attempting to give direction and help to the fifty or sixty full-timers who had moved from Taipei to Orange County. To his great frustration, the full-timers were taken over by the LSM office and its management, and were charged to do construction and yard work over an extended period of time to the neglect of their gospel preaching. Dan had also heard some things concerning misconduct and irregularities related to the ministry office that greatly upset him, and he had serious concerns as we did for the Lord’s recovery. At one point he told me that he considered to resign from the work and to leave. We confirmed his feeling that the situation was indeed serious. Godfred, Dan, and I came together a few times, joined also by Ken Unger on a couple of occasions to fellowship about the situation and what should be done. Ken Unger, who was an elder in Huntington Beach, had himself also become very concerned. We conferred about our burden to speak with Brother Lee, mentioning a number of our concerns that involved aberration of truth and practice (p. 102). To say that John was leaving the flowing of the Triune God if he continued in his direction was an erroneous perception. Serious problems that had been stopping the flow needed to be addressed, and John did his best to do so. In 1977, Brother Lee had shared, Do not say, as if it were a mere slogan, "I am following the flow." The real flow is the Lord Himself. How wrong it is to stir up a movement! That is an insult to the Lord. It is an offense to Him. There must never be a movement among us in the Lord's recovery. Do not use the word "flow" as a cloak to disguise a movement. When some of you speak of the flow, you actually mean a movement. To create a movement and then to encourage others to follow it is to make a tremendous mistake (The Spirit and the Body, p. 9, 1977). John Ingalls was in the church in Los Angeles in the very beginning with Witness Lee in 1962. By 1989 at the time of his resignation he knew what the flowing of the Triune God was and what it wasn’t. In the new way, though it was Scriptural, there was no flow. It was a movement that featured a man and his ministry and a way. A system developed without the “real flow of the Lord Himself”. John tried to address those problems effecting the flowing of the Triune God, which he did experience in Los Angeles in the sixties and early seventies, with the church on a genuine ground of oneness in those years. Abnormal Spiritual Perception? Had Ron and Kerry considered what other members, besides John, were experiencing in the late eighties? and how they felt about aberration of truth and practice? and the change of nature in the recovery? John did not stand alone. Ron and Kerry, however, didn’t appreciate or understand John’s research, study, fellowship, and public evaluation, so they could only judge by their limited concept of him and his address to the church. They said, Before we turn to John’s eighteen numbered points, we need to draw the reader’s attention to a striking feature of John’s speaking on March 19, 1989 – abnormal spiritual perception. As indicated by the material in the transcript, John’s perception of the situation in the Lord’s recovery is abnormal, and his view is biased and distorted. Again and again, his words demonstrate the failure to perceive the true character of the things about which he is speaking. “He does not see the true character of a thing; yet, he considers himself clear.” (Watchman Nee, Spiritual Reality or Obsession, p. 48) John claims certain things to be facts that are not facts. We believe that a careful examination of the content and implications of John’s eighteen points will show that his spiritual perception of the condition and direction of the Lord’s recovery is abnormal and unreliable and that the conclusions he draws from this perception are erroneous and unwarranted. Again, Ron Kangas and Kerry Robichaux were Living Stream Ministry employees, working in Irving (also Anaheim). They were daily filled with exercise in writing and editing for printing and distribution. This was a major realm of their involvement in the recovery. They were Witness Lee loyalists through and through. He was their spiritual father, as well as employer. It didn’t matter what Witness Lee did, or how he did it; they stood by him. As long as he was speaking and they were writing, etc., they were happy. John Ingalls was an elder in Anaheim and not active in the LSM work. LSM was a world to itself, and its world was growing. Its influence in the churches was also growing. This was of great concern to those with the least bit of spiritual perception, and it had very much to do with the change in nature in the recovery, as well as to John’s claims in his eighteen points. John Ingalls relates from his own book what he and others perceived. His view is not “biased and distorted”, but honest and forthright, a very normal, not abnormal, spiritual perception. As has already been shared, the influence and control of the LSM office was a major concern. Here again is some of John’s fellowship about the problem: John Ingalls "Another matter that concerned us greatly was the growing influence and control of the LSM office, (i. e. Philip Lee) over churches, elders, co-workers, and the full-time training in Taiwan. We had numerous examples of such an intolerable and unscriptural situation. With my own eyes I saw some leading ones reporting to Philip Lee what they were intending to share with a gathering of Orange County young people and ask if he thought that would be all right. I could hardly believe it. Was this the function of a business manager? When I reported this observation to some brothers who had coordinated with Philip Lee and associated with him, they laughed at me and said that that was very common. They were amused by my being startled by this discovery. Godfred even admitted later that he had done the same thing himself: he had suggested that before someone was chosen to lead a young people’s conference, it should be checked out with Philip. Godfred fully repented of that. Dan Towle remarked that this was our “life-style”. How far off we were! "Moreover, elders were encouraged to call Philip Lee regarding conferences and many affairs concerning the work and the churches in their areas, asking his advice and who should come to help them. A few places actually practiced this. There are a number of instances of churches and whole areas being cut off by the management of the LSM office from the supply of literature and tapes due to some alleged offense of the elders, regardless of the suffering imposed upon the saints in those churches. When the elders repented in a manner satisfactory to the office, the ban was lifted. Some adjustments, we understand have been made in the administration of the LSM office, but at that time the situation was bad and worsening. The portent for the future was threatening. This was a genuine concern. Are Ron and Kerry aware of the corrupting effect that Philip Lee brought into the recovery? Are they aware of the facts concerning him? John Ingalls was well aware. |
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#220 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Not sure what you mean by "negative speaking about the Local Churches on the internet", but I hope you don't mean the exposing of the real history - the fact that Witness Lee was propagating extremely divisive teachings and practices going back to his days in Taiwan. Lee was attacking other Christians and even suing members of his own denomination long before he landed on our fair shores. Lee was also propagating strange and unbiblical teachings going back to his Taiwan days as well. Apparently Witness exercised some measure of self control (now we know it was just deceit) in the early days here in America, but eventually the real Lee came out, and he boldly declared himself to be the only one speaking for God on earth. Let's all keep in mind that negative does NOT = false. The Bible is FULL of negative speaking - sometimes it speaks negatively against the words and actions of God's people, sometimes it speaks negatively against a certain leader/leaders. What do we see in the speaking of the Prophets? The vast majority of their speaking was "negative" against God's people and or the leaders. Look at the record of the speaking of the Lord Jesus in the Gospels. When he wasn't busy healing the sick, feeding the poor, eating with sinners and preaching the good news, he was clearing out the temple with a whip and calling the leaders a brood of vipers and sons of the devil! Much of the New Testament was a record of the apostles dealing with the "negative" side of the Church. The simple fact is that negative things will plague us until the end. There will be sin and sinners until the end - when God throws it all into the Lake of Fire. But one more thing to keep in mind...negative speaking coming from man is not necessarily negative speaking coming from God: "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God" (1 John 4:1) Tragically, this kind of testing was not encouraged in the Local Church. In fact Witness Lee pretty much forbade it. This is exactly what Steve is dealing with in Ron Kangas. He is only capable of testing the spirits of those who might test the person and work of Witness Lee and/or the religious system he established. Thus, those who follow the person and work of Witness Lee inevitably end up in the category of those who "measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding" (2 Cor 10:12) May God have mercy.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#221 |
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Whether it's Ron Kangas or local brothers, any speaking such as mine or yours is considered negative; so to their ears I use the term "negative speaking". Much of the speaking on the forum is with a positive end in view. And, every type of perceived "negative" speaking on the forum would at least be diminished thru "coming together" and the brothers making at least general public concessions concerning the veracity of several of our concerns.
They should make specific concessions over specific concerns; but to get general concessions is a start. For example, they should have the integrity to admit the fact that 1) Philip Lee was a huge factor in causing turmoil and division in the Local Churches. that 2) Co-workers did cover up his sins in the office and his abusive and divisive behavior among churches. that 3) Leaving him out of "official" accounts of Local Church history is a travesty, as is the casting of blame on others, who were moved with righteous indignation to stop the tide of evil in the churches. trav·es·ty 1. false representation: a distorted or debased version of something It was a kangaroo court, a travesty of justice. Encarta ® World English Dictionary © 4) 5) 6) etc. |
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#222 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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What if someone like that new poster Lisbon, who was in the Recovery for 41 years, found out that Witness Lee lied about John Ingalls to coverup the fact that his son Philip was molesting the female volunteer help at the Living Stream ministry offices on Ball Road. "No, Mr. Isitt, there will be no concessions forthcoming from LSM." ![]()
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#223 |
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Whether Ron or Kerry were aware is a question. What is not debatable, Ron and Kerry were under Phillip Lee. He was for intents and purposes leading LSM on his father's behalf. Phillip was his father's most important co-worker. So, if Ron and Kerry wanted to remain as employees of LSM, they needed to cowtow to Phillip Lee even if they were aware of Phillip's misconduct. In Speaking the Truth in Love Benson Phillips and Ray Graver had admitted as much to John Ingalls and the late Ken Unger knowing about Philip's immoral behavior.
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#224 | |
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But who played whom? Knowing that Benson Phillips since he was a young man dreamed of being the head of an international ministry leads me to believe that he and those in tow from Texas may have been playing the Lee's to insinuate and manipulate themselves into ultimately running LSM. If one has the ambition but not the wherewithal or personality to create an international ministry from scratch (Benson Phillips) one might be willing to tolerate and cover up for a guy like Philip Lee to appease his dad and gain control of the desired position. In other words without the prize of running LSM as a realistic outcome could Benson & Co really stomach the behavior and abuse of Philip Lee? Doubtful IMHO. They played daddy & son to get what they wanted! |
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#225 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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#226 | |
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Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, John So, etc. were at the pinnacle of success (if you will) in the LC system. They were elders locally and senior coworkers in "the work". What would they be ambitious for? The only position higher was Witness Lee's as the global boss over all the work. Does anyone seriously believe any of these brothers wanted Lee's position? Does anyone seriously believe they were stupid enough to think they had the status to realistically claim that position even if they did want it? Witness Lee and his LSM staffers often gave silly immature explanations hoping their listeners were naive and trusting enough to take them at face value. Unfortunately for the most part they were correct. |
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#227 |
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Please note also that Benson Phillips, who as a young man laid under the stars on a golf course and saw visions of his leading a big religious movement, was himself never ambitious.
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#228 | |
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Think about his response for those who lost their life savings during the Daystar disaster, "they lost their virginity." Nothing was ever his fault! Somebody else was always to blame! These saints were robbed by Lee in some grand get-rich-quick scheme, but Lee owed them no apology, rather they should consider it a "gift to the Lord." For the ones who were finally compensated for their "investment," it was because they threatened to go to the authorities.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#229 | |
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One of the points I used to emphasize on thebereans.net, if these brothers were SO ambitious as Witness claims and as LSM co-workers still claim, why would they remain for 25 years? If they were ambitious, don't you think they would have exercised ambition to take opver the work while still young men? As it was, after 25 years they were in their late 50's. Much more logical is they were more spiritually mature than their younger co-workers (now known as the blended brothers). Being more spiritually mature, they saw things in the light most brothers and sisters did not see. |
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#230 | |
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Personally I see nothing wrong with people being ambitious. Since when is that a crime? You have a goal and the determination and hard work to achieve it. What's wrong with that? Witness Lee could not build an international ministry without ambition. So the first thing Witness Lee had to do was make being ambitious a bad thing. (Which he constantly did in his messages all the while being highly ambitious himself.) Once he could convince his audience of this he could henceforth dismissively use it as a one line stock "reason" why many of his closest senior coworkers weren't happy with some of the things going on in the late 1980s. In this manner he could keep covering up the real reasons. However in this particular instance I'm surprised he and his LSM employees would use this stock answer instead of pulling another one off the shelf. Because as I wrote in a previous post the coworkers involved were already at the top. They were well respected elders and coworkers with stellar reputations throughout the LC system. If indeed they were motivated by ambition the only higher "position" they could hope to achieve was the one held by Witness Lee as the super-apostle over the work globally. Does anyone seriously believe any of these brothers were dumb enough to think that was a realistic goal? And if that was not the goal of their supposed "unfulfilled ambition" then what possibly could it have been? What were they ambitious to achieve for themselves in the LC system that they didn't already have? May I state it plainly? This stock answer of Witness Lee & Co is otherwise known as: lying. Bold-faced lying to God's people to cover up the real legitimate reasons these coworkers were concerned. |
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#231 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 707
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![]() The Claim that Brothers Were Ambitious John Ingalls – “It is not our desire, nor has it ever been, to overthrow anyone’s work or ministry, neither have we desired to put anyone’s ministry aside, but rather to bring everything to the light and put everything in the proper context. A report has been circulated that we would not be satisfied until we brought a certain person down; this report was erroneously applied to us. We never had any such intention, nor have we ever conspired against anyone – the Lord knows this and can testify for us. The accusation of conspiracy made against us is an utter falsehood – our testimony as recorded in this account bears this out. Rather we have grieved over those in leadership who have swerved from the path they once proclaimed and espoused. We desperately hoped there would be some change to resolve the serious problems that had emerged, and we fellowshipped earnestly with Brother Lee to this end. We have lamented the damage inflicted and suffered by many saints through practices and attitudes that we too in some measure participated in… For my part, I humbly repent of this”. (Speaking the Truth In Love conclusion, 1990) Al Knoch – “Anyone who knows John Ingalls knows that he is not ambitious; he is not that way. Who would want that responsibility [of taking over the recovery]. There was no conspiracy” (from an interview with Al, Nov 2000). John So – In his Manila presentation, John So expressed surprise at the conspiracy charge: "I would like to just go through Brother Lee’s outline concerning the rebellion. It says the rebellion began to ferment from Stuttgart in 1986. What I would like to do is just give you the chronological events of what took place. I will only deal briefly with things that I personally know quite well, concerning myself, Stuttgart, and Europe. I don’t know and I am not thoroughly familiar with what went on in Hong Kong. I really do not know and I cannot say anything in details. So, I cannot speak for brother Joseph Fung. And I didn’t know exactly what happened in Anaheim in the very beginning. So I cannot speak for brother John Ingalls. I really cannot. And when things happened in Rosemead, I really had no idea what was going on there until I read the literature that they had put out. I did not even know that we had ever formed together an “international conspiracy ring” until Witness Lee said so. I am quite surprised. None of the places I’ve mentioned involved me. Okay, Witness Lee claims that rebellion and conspiracy started to ferment in Stuttgart in 1986. I’m going to start at this point…." (1990, John So’s testimony given in Manila by their invitation) John Ingalls – John Ingalls speaks of having the same “heart’s burden” as others. "Brother Lee mentioned then that Bill Mallon, John So, and myself all used the same term – central control. He deduced that we must have consulted or “conspired” together. The fact was that we all had the same realization because of separate similar experiences without any consultation and certainly without any “conspiring“ with each other. John So began to be concerned in 1986, Bill Mallon in the spring of 1987, and myself in the fall of 1987. Eventually, as we had done for years, we had telephone contact with each other, and our heart’s burden came out. John Ingalls – John shares the following refutation of the conspiracy charge: "At this point we felt that it would be useful for the brothers we had contacted to come together to fellowship and pray in preparation for going to see Brother Lee, so that we would be clear concerning the issues we would present to him. Moreover, we believed it would be best not to create any stir among the saints or other elders by doing this openly; so we sought some place where we could all meet privately. This was by no means a conspiracy, as we are being charged. At no time did we ever meet with the purpose of plotting to overthrow Brother Lee and his ministry. That is utterly ridiculous. We never had such a thought – the Lord can testify for us. A private meeting or a secret meeting does not constitute a conspiracy. A conspiracy takes form from the content of the meeting. Is it a conspiracy to pray and fellowship together in preparation for visiting Brother Lee and opening our hearts in frank fellowship? Of course not. We were very concerned for the saints and sought for an extended period to cover the grave matters from them lest they be distraught and we suffer worse consequences. One of the brothers I sought to contact and confer with was Ray Graver, an elder in the church in Irving, Texas, and the manager of the LSM branch office there. I called him in Texas and proposed that I come to see him in Irving. It was thought, however, for us to meet in Irving would attract too much attention; so we settled on meeting midway in El Paso, Texas. This decision is being censured now as a plan for a secret meeting, as if that in itself is evil and a conspiracy. But I fail to see anything wrong with this. It was with a pure motive and desire and certainly was not a plot to draw him into a conspiracy to overthrow anyone’s ministry. Ray was quite willing to do this until Benson Phillips, another co-worker and elder in Irving, Texas, who was then in Taiwan, advised him against it. Had Benson been in Irving, I would have sought to speak with him also. I enjoyed a very good and close relationship with both Ray and Benson for many years." John So - John So speaks straightforwardly to Brother Lee: "Originally, I did plan to go to Anaheim to have some personal fellowship with you [Witness Lee] as you requested by phone early December. (I must say at this time I was not too polite anymore. If you would consider that as maybe a rebellion, that’s fine with me. Consider it as a rebellion. Conspiracy, that is also fine with me.) In my last page, I told him, please do not think that I’m against you or am opposing you because of my writing you this letter. I do not have the slightest intention to oppose your work or your ministry. Neither do I have any desire to convince any brother. By the Lord’s grace, I like to be straightforward and follow my conscience, not to hide anything and not play politics, not to please anyone, or to offend anyone. May the Lord have mercy on all His churches. (I ended the letter that way.) Bill Mallon - Bill Mallon was very concerned over serious developments in the Southeast churches and of course he opened to other brothers about his concerns, but he spurns the idea that there was ever a conspiracy to overthrow someone. He said that to be charged in this way “would be funny if it were not so tragic”. (from a phone conversation with Bill, 2001) The brothers simply came together to discuss their serious concerns and desired to bring those concerns into fellowship with other brothers, including Brother Lee. John Ingalls approached Brother Lee sixteen times on behalf of the feeling of many brothers and the burden that many of them had at that time. Ken Unger went to Brother Lee twenty times. After a considerable amount of time had passed with little progress being made, certain brothers began to speak out according to their convictions, based on the Word of God, prior church ministry, and their conscience. This, however, was interpreted by some as speaking differently, and negatively, and being against the new way in the churches. (Excerpts from Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery) Steve Isitt |
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#232 |
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Location: USA
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So what if these brothers were ambitious? Since when was ambition a horrible thing? Oh yeah, Lee said so.
![]() Witness Lee was more ambitious than anyone. He just got to live out his ambition because he was top dog. Nice work if you can get it. Ambition as a vice is a non-starter for everyone except people in "the Recovery." And they only worry about it because Lee told them they should, while all along he fulfilled his monstrous ambition of being the "Minister of the Age." In other words, he held everyone else down because he didn't want rivals. Talk about ambition! Do you see a discrepancy there, or do I have to spell it out further? I mean, the psychology is so warped I guess you have to be warped to fall for it. Unfortunately, that's what being in a movement like that does to you. The whole Recovery psychology is about submitting your thoughts to another person. Not God, but another fallen person. If you don't, you are labeled ambitious, rebellious, yada, yada. I mean, it's psycho. Some day someone will write a book about it. The Recovery reminds me of Communist China. On the surface everyone paid lip service to the words of Mao, and would never oppose him in public. But in private the Chinese people ran capitalism wherever they could. My brother-in-law grew up there. That's how he described it. Christians in the Recovery are the same way. They give lip service to Lee's platitudes, but when push comes to shove they live pretty much like any other halfway-serious Christian. They have families, fun, vacations, hobbies, opinions. In short they live human life like everyone else. They just pretend in their conferences like they are significantly different. I guess it makes them feel good to think that. Or maybe they just think they are supposed to. |
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#233 | ||
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#234 |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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In Afaithfulword.org it's been spun to a spiritual sounding term; respecting the feeling of the body. If you don't submit to the blending brothers, you're being independent. By all appearances, if you don't make LSM publications the basis of assembling, you are meeting independent of the body.
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#235 |
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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By the way, what happened to the one publication edict? I've noticed that everyone is blogging these days. News songs are being written and posted on the internet. I doubt all of them are LSM approved. Not sure if the one publication can really be carried out. It was possible before the internet era. But now with thousands of members blogging, writing on forums, posting music, messages, etc..., it is impossible to police the situation. I don't think this one publication thing is going to last for very long. What do you guys think?
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#236 | |
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Anything beyond that, talk to Steve Isitt. He can tell you what happens next. Or james73 more recently: see his thread on the subject, titled "Kicked out". http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4405 james73 made two mistakes: first, he had an opinion. Second, he didn't keep it to himself - he expressed it publicly. So as long as you don't violate those simple, basic rules: blog away.
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#237 | |
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"We wish to comment on two of John’s closing remarks. John says, 'if we have offended any of you saints, we ask you to please forgive us. We surely never intended to offend anyone of you.' On the one hand, offended saints should receive the grace to forgive from their hearts. To maintain a sweet, harmonious church life we need to forgive one another. On the other hand, John’s word 'If we have offended any of you saints' is somewhat disturbing for it is altogether too general and superficial and it displays a lack of consciousness of the grave offenses caused not only to saints but also to other churches. Certain things said and done in Anaheim since August 28, 1988, have caused damage and distress and should not be dealt with generally and superficially. There is the willingness to forgive but there should also be the willingness to repent."
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#238 | |
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#239 | |
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#240 | |
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#241 |
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“Oh, this man of death, Steve Isitt, he wrote
something. And someone else is sending it everywhere. I need to figure this out; oh, I never heard these things. Could this be true? Did the brothers behave like that?” http://www.hidinghistoryinthelordsre...sinEcuador.pdf It's in writings. Either the writers are lying or blended brothers are exerting much effort to conceal their roles; specifically in the late 80's turmoil. I see them as part of the problem during the turmoil when they could have been part of the solution. The two writings in particular that com to mind is John Ingalls' Speaking the Truth in Love and David Wang's testimony of his account in Rosemead's turmoil. I have attached for thoe who have not read it. |
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#242 | |
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It shows how beloved brothers become bullies once they decide to "follow a man." By choosing to be so-called one with the ministry, they become men-pleasers capable of all manners of evil in order to justify their misaimed goals. Only by following Christ our Head can we remain true to our conscience.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#243 | |
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To be one with the ministry is in effect no different than liberals who choose to be one with Obama's administration. The principle is no different; playing politics. One administration regards a federal government while the other administration regards a Christian publisher which influences many local churches. I saw this link http://www.blendedbody.com/AAA-Perso...ristianity.htm in another thread. I thought it would be fitting here. |
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#244 |
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This is my first post since last Nov (2013). I am compelled to share some developments.
To elders, brothers, sisters in Seattle, (Sept 27, 2014) Excerpt from 1st letter I have had recent church life experience in the church in Spokane after a 12 year absence from an environment of fellowship in the ministry of Witness Lee. This came after enough experience with believers elsewhere to comprehend the shortcoming in ministry of the word that there is in so many places. My experience in Spokane was highlighted by the home meeting I was brought into, as we viewed videos on messages from the Philippians and Galatians LS Trainings. The three I saw were excellent as was our fellowship together before and afterwards. The two Sunday morning meetings I attended were a profound exercise of spiritual singing and corporate sharing from the saints’ rich deposit within them. Additionally, there was an outstanding Sunday evening of fellowship that “featured” a video out of Anaheim, along with the saints’ sharing. It is no small thing to be in an atmosphere conducive for the dispensing of Christ into one another. Neither is it a small thing to be cut off from fellowship, when word came from Seattle to Spokane about me. I came one more time and heard from an open window the singing and speaking of the saints. Before long I was infused and left amazed, smiling and enlivened.... 2nd Letter www.lordsrecovery.us/SeattleLetter2-2014.pdf |
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#245 | |
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LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
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#246 |
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First letter excerpt: "On August 8, 2014 I received a phone call from the Spokane brother hosting our home meeting, informing me that because of the report from Seattle I could no longer attend the home meeting. He was hopeful, though, and even jubilant in believing I would soon be restored to fellowship as there would be more contact with Seattle. I was to first take down my websites to open the way for fellowship, which I did take down, and informed this brother.
I knew though that if I would be dealing with the same mentality as in the past, I would not only NOT be restored, I would most likely be ignored - completely. And this is what did happen. The Seattle elder who gave the report of censure, did not respond to the fact that I was making progress in the Lord in Spokane and that the brothers were happy with me and wanted me there. The brothers in Spokane, then, closed the doors to me till I could get through with the brothers in Seattle, who also closed their doors to me. Taking the websites down did not open up fellowship. And either did the testimony that I was doing well and that I was wanted in Spokane. Further, the fact I have had no activity on the internet in 2014 or in most of 2013 had not yet come to their ears, and if it had, still their mind and heart would remain closed." |
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#247 |
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Dear brother Indiana: Why do you waste your time with these people?
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#248 | |
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"Bro. Steve, "I know that you have been very exercised in your spirit regarding your burden to have the local church open to reconciliation, and so are many brothers, I being one. The leadership in the local churches (Living Stream affiliated) have had ample opportunity to review before the Lord what has happened with the churches over the years, yet I see no breakthrough. Perhaps, the Lord will keep the same burden in your heart until he returns, but I do believe, brother, the local churches in the "new way" have departed from the faith once delivered to us. That is, that our faith that is grounded in the light of God's word, in His love for the saints and his administrative Headship, not coming from "local church Leadership" who have propagated a systematized and robotic like practice to exact perverted oneness far removed from the dynamic working of the Lord in each saint's life. Steve, remember the age we are in. The Church in Laodicea will remain as is when the Lord returns/ He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit says, and the Lord is knocking at the door, much like you have been doing. Did they open the door for fellowship? Emphatically, No! Perhaps, it is time to declare enough and shake off your shoes and go on." Love in Christ, Ruben |
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#249 | |
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The brothers are playing politics. The ones in Seattle had no intention of offering fellowship. You were going on positively in Spokane FAR FAR away from Seattle. There was no need for brothers to play the Partiality card. Since when did the Church in Spokane begin catering to Seattle, Bellevue, etc? For years Spokane was a local church that practiced autonomy. |
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#250 | |
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#251 | |
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1st Letter to Seattle: "The positive aspects of the church I have never denied, as those who know me understand. But I am not one-dimensional, just considering the positive side - “Once a church becomes spiritual, many problems will have to be considered. If a church is not spiritual, it is peaceful and without problems. The more spiritual you are, the more problems you have to solve” (W. Nee, Church Affairs, p. 48, 151). If I address a problem, whether with a brother or concerning the churches, it is with deep sincerity and with one objective in mind – reconciliation of the members unto restoration in the Body. This has been my endeavor, whether personally with Joel Kennon or corporately, as with Dan Towle. |
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#252 | |
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Seems to me they are speaking against the Holy Spirit, but what do I know.
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#253 |
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Dear saints, elders, Oct 1, 2014
As I shared a few days ago, I was recently cut off from fellowship in the church in Spokane after a very promising beginning. Word came to them that I had websites that needed to be brought down and issues with an elder that needed to be resolved. I cooperated to bring down the sites but never heard from Seattle brothers to discuss the issues they have with me. I then contacted a Seattle brother responsible for the report given and was told they would not meet with me. I asked the brother by phone if he would meet with me himself to pray, and he seemed surprised, but was also unwilling. I asked a Spokane brother the same, but he was unwilling also. Spokane had totally shut the door of fellowship to me based on this report they heard, but are not willing to discuss it with me until I get through with Seattle who also will not discuss the report with me. There is no way, therefore, for me to be heard by these two churches. I am obliged, therefore, to respond to them publicly. As high as brothers have risen to apprehend the mysteries of God, they are that low in their apprehension of me and the truths I speak. To elders and saints: 2006 I want to share my very positive testimony of being in the local churches for 30+ years, but before doing so, I will address briefly the unexpected interruption there has been to my fellowship in the churches over the last five years. Many saints are unaware of what my situation is, or maybe they have heard something alarming without hearing the whole story, but I want all the saints to know this much: I am for the building up of the Body of Christ through the local churches and the rich ministry we been receiving in the Lord’s recovery for many years. I have never changed in this regard. Certain elders, however, had the perception that I changed, and they acted accordingly to remove me from the fellowship. This was due to their lack of understanding and investigation. The change they perceived I had made was related to, ironically, my addressing matters concerning reconciliation, oneness, and the building up of the Body of Christ, but were viewed by these elders instead as acts of division and violations of God’s government. This was a great surprise to me. The elders’ denouncements of me resulted from 1. My attempts at opening my heart to Joel Kennon for our being reconciled. 2. My attempts at helping a couple in OKC be reconciled to one another. 3. My attempts at building a bridge of communication to former members throughout the recovery, encouraging reconciliation. 4. My attempts at directly contacting former and current leaders to encourage reconciliation among them. Three of the former leaders had been “quarantined” by the churches. In my heart I had nothing of divisive intention, but held the high view that we in the churches have all been infused with for carrying out God’s economy. Each of these four types of attempts of addressing broken relationships required diligence to acquire the proper knowledge base for dealings that could result in oneness being recovered through a ministry of Christ. This is what I wanted to generate; yet, I found no commensurate effort on the elders’ part to gain such a knowledge base. Therefore, the knowledge base for each of these matters was profoundly different for me than it was for the elders. This created a huge difference in understanding, conviction, and burden before the Lord. In 1996, ten years ago this January, I had first begun to run into trouble due to serious communication problems with the elders in Seattle. This began a relationship problem with them, especially with Joel Kennon. To this day, I still would encourage him to come before the Lord with me to clear up these serious matters that have affected our relationship and the oneness in the Body. He has shown no interest to address my concerns about him in a genuine and specific way, while fellow elders have shown no interest in helping him. Their total bias toward this highly respected brother has prevailed in the matter. 1. If there can be no genuine fellowship among the elders to seek the Lord and the facts on the matter with Joel, I ask them, then, to dismiss this so-called “problem with Joel” as one of their reasons for keeping me out of fellowship. 2. I ask the elders also to dismiss the Oklahoma City matter, unless they want to spend adequate time to understand what I was involved with for three years in care for a couple, a church, and even the recovery. As Francis Ball agreed, “This matter in OKC will have far-reaching effects in the recovery if it is not dealt with”, a brother allowed to put away his wife, without just cause, and seeing another sister, even attending the Lord ’s Table together. 3. Concerning a booklet I wrote and further writings I’ve done, I ask the elders to consider the points I have made, the strong documentation I have used, and the reality of our history that I and many others believe needs to be solemnly addressed. 4. There was great concern shown over my contacting John Ingalls because he had been “quarantined” by the churches, beginning in California in 1990. After ten years, I felt it should be okay to contact John Ingalls. Such a concern about him wanes in the light of his testimony. My writings were my attempt to bring us into fellowship concerning the points I made. From the beginning, I had a spirit of fellowship on the matters. However, since my concepts were different and considered “dangerous”, I was not accepted as a brother in the fellowship any longer. The early petitions for me to gather in a big group to be examined by 15 elders was not an inviting prospect for me since on six occasions I had very unpleasant encounters with elders one on one, and one on two. I sensed no spirit of fellowship with them. They were bent on discipline, not learning. But I was learning something about them and would be resorting to communication by letter, if there was to be contact. I had agreed to meet on a Thursday evening with Joel and Sherman Robertson. Joel lined that meeting up with me on the Sunday before, but did not follow through with the meeting. He hadn’t yet set the time and did not bother to inform me that we were not going to meet. (This had happened before with Joel at a very serious juncture, when he (and Jim Bundy) did not follow through to meet with me to begin a reconciling fellowship, Sept 2000). I simply did not hear from him again in both instances. I tried to contact him twice in the first instance and left messages. This show of disrespect from him has been a constant, forcing my respect for him to plummet. Three months after our proposed Thursday meeting, I called Sherman Robertson after hearing that he thought I would have nothing to say if we met, and he said he would get several brothers together to meet with me. I expected a “one-sided fellowship” with no true openness to my sharing, yet I prepared thoroughly to share extensively on every point of their concern. Because I didn’t hear from him in ten days, I felt to cancel any such meeting for any time soon. The wait was too long with that kind of pressure on me, and my health, income and home life were being effected. On the 11th day, he contacted me, not yet reading my email, and had the meeting scheduled for a week later. I stood with my decision not to meet. He told others, including Atsuo and Les Cites that I had “quit”, not explaining to them why. I then explained it to Les and Atsuo. Any other questions, such as why I went on the internet, I would hope could be brought into fellowship and not superficially handled as has been the case with concerns about me. In Brother Lee’s book on Character he said that – and I say this as possibly a last word I will say to those who have been judging me the last years – The book of proverbs says that a foolish person is a shallow person. The observation of a shallow person is not accurate. His understanding of the church, people, matters, and things is superficial. Being deep is closely related to being thorough and serious. A shallow person always makes superficial observations, whereas a deep person always searches and digs when he looks at things. While others labor to obtain light in studying the Bible, a shallow person is satisfied with merely a literal understanding. In listening to people, a deep person does not easily believe others and listens beyond superficial remarks. However, a shallow person readily believes others’ words, and his relaying of information is often inconsistent and incomplete. As a result, gossip is created. Those who serve the Lord must be deep in truth, in experience, and in leading others. A shallow person cannot serve the Lord, because he will make God’s work shallow. Those who like to represent others are shallow people. One who is deep is neither complicated nor shallow. Such a person is three-dimensional, always investigating and researching (p.22). It is my desire to come into a more full fellowship in the church, and be able to come to meetings and be accepted by all the saints. I don’t want to do any more addressing of our past, publicly. But, unless the brothers do realize that they have been utterly shallow and careless regarding me and my handling of heartfelt matters, what can I do? You remain in your unconcerned and inactive state about the matters I have raised and about me also. And, I remain with the things I have investigated and researched so thoroughly. My ordeal over the elders’ reaction to my writings began in January 2001 with Dan Towle; it is now reaching the five-year mark. There should be a consummation at this time. The ordeal with Joel Kennon is reaching the ten-year mark. What shall I do with the matters I have fully tried to convey and bring into fellowship? I will look to the Lord for the answer, and I also hope for brothers, fellow members of the Body, to respond in a spirit of fellowship to this current fellowship that I offer. If there is no interest to seriously regard the truth of our church history, that is one thing; and to continue holding a one-sided view that lacks full scope on issues regarding Joel is another. Spreading untrue perceptions of me in the church is still another matter and is most egregious and damaging - to the church and to me. End 2006 There was no response to the 2006 letter; I, then, began to post writings on the Berean forum that year and continued later on the local church discussions forum. Steve Isitt Sept-Oct 1, 2014 |
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#254 |
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Steve Isitt's on-going situation with LSM is an indicator of the following:
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#255 | |
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LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
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#256 | |
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Brother, you knew what was in it....and you still drank it |
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#257 | |
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#258 | |
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Why is it so hard to differentiate a publishing house from the family of God? Is it really impossible to do?
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#259 |
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And if bro Indiana ever hopes to be accepted back into the LC he's gonna have to commit to mixing up that Kool-aid for Anaheim. And I don't believe bro Indiana will ever be able to do such a thing.
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#260 |
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I wish Isset would cut the cords that have held him for such a long time. The LC is not going to change. They're just like the king of the sects. Unless you can get to them with enough millions of dollars as the pedaphyles litigation did the RCC, Anaheim will not budge. There's no reason for them to retract, repent, or else. The leadership is bankrupt as many other sects are. We have to go on. As the Lord has done nothing about the countless sects of Christianity, we had better stay out.
To me it's a real mercy that we have the desire to persue the Lord. I strongly feel the Lord is still saying "come unto Me all you that labor and are heavy laden an I will give you rest." I personally think I can fellowship with those who have long been my friends but if they choose to cut me off, so be it. We have to move on. Lisbon |
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#261 |
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#262 |
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The "restorationist" sects create an idealized past, like WN's "normal church", that exists only in their simplistic histories. News flash: you can never go back. You can only go forward.
History has occurred. We cannot and should not pretend that it hasn't, unless we want to, ahem, declare that we are all happy to be ostriches with our heads suck in the sand. If God wanted some 1st century church as the apotheosis of all redeemed creation then that is arguably what we'd see here & now. He didn't, & we don't.
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#263 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#264 |
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Seems I like to move back ... ain't that okay?
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#265 | |
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Steve has proved, the LC is a sect when they claim to receive all blood-washed redeemed believers, but they won't receive him (or others) nor have the LC's proved any scriptural basis why he should be refused. |
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#266 |
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Only for a few laughs ... then turn around ... and head back in the right direction.
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#267 | |
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Yes, I do agree, however, I have appreciated the writings that have been produced as a result of Steve's endeavors. As a disillusioned LC member who began to search the internet, his writings are one of the first things that came up for me. I found one of his more recent writings very helpful. That was the paper regarding the Sandovals that was posted by Terry. It seems like many who have left the LC in the past, just left and moved on wanting to put the past behind them. That provides good closure to someone as an individual, but current members who are hurting such as myself are not able to learn from the experiences of those kinds of people. Steve's endeavors may never prove successful, however, what we now know as a result of his endeavours is quite valuable, and it has helped me to see the darkness and deception of the current LC leadership. |
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#268 |
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Going back is fun. That's the purpose of LCD.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#269 | |
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The company had two very energetic, very savvy marketing people who knew everything there was to know about shoes and all types of footwear; and the Manager decided that these two should spearhead their new thrust into domains thitherto unexplored. The Manager had had his mind turned to two remote islands out in the Pacific. He would send one salesperson to one island and the other to the other island. And so they were sent on their way. After several days, the salesperson who had been sent to Island 'A' called back and he didn't sound very excited or enthused over the phone. He didn't have good news he informed the shoe-company. He whined and complained that he had trooped up and down the island in the hot sun everyday for three days and he had not seen one single person wearing shoes on the island. There was, he informed the Manager, no potential for business whatsoever on the forsaken island. He was sorry he had wasted the company's time and resources and would return to Buffalo on the next available flight. That very same afternoon, the salesperson who had been sent to Island 'B' called the shoe company. He was all excited and could barely contain himself. "What is it, what is it?" the Manager asked him excitedly over the phone, himself becoming infected by the salesperson's ecstatic exuberance. The salesperson explained that he had gone all around the island twice, and twice over again, and he had not seen one single person wearing shoes on the island! The Manager was confused. "Don't you see?", the salesperson exclaimed, "there is great business to be had over here," he cried out..."I already have orders filled out for a hundred and ten pairs of shoes, and the demand is high, everybody wants shoes now!...send enough shoes on the next available flight and let's make mooooney!!!" The first salesperson received a telegram at the airport as soon as he landed informing him that he had been fired! ______________________________________________ He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear what the salesperson saith unto the churches ______________________________________________
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#270 |
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So what happened in the 80s that caused a dispute among the saints. I see all these post referring to it. What is it?
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#271 | |
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Basically, Lee's "business decision" to install his admittedly unspiritual son to run the LSM enterprise blew up in his face. So it became loyalty to the truth or to Lee. Most evidently picked Lee.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#272 | |
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#273 | |
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I'm asking because I'm wondering how many stayed in the LRC even after learning about Philip. In other words, I guess, when WL put Philip in charge did many know about his debauchery? I was long gone by then. How widespread in the LC's was the knowledge of Philip's degeneracy?
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#274 |
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Replying to awareness 273.
I was also in the lc from 1972 and I assure you that BP, RG, and others kept an air tight lid on the PL fiasco. Nothing, not one word was ever mentioned in the Dallas area. I heard two very casual references probably around that time but none other so that there was plenty of reason that the whole thing was somewhat of a hoax. Not until I came to this forum did I ever hear of details of PL, JI, BM, JS and others. A lot of testimony was very carefully swept under the rug in a very secrety way. The cat is out of the box but vigorously denied by the hierarchy. If it actually came out the house of cards would come tumbling down. Lisbon |
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#275 | |
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In short, they/Lee successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of those faithfully giving their lives to what they were taught to be the very movement of God? That's devious, and crafty -- devil like -- and without a doubt a hoax. All I can do is shake my head, realizing that it's still going on. Those poor people ... Lord have mercy on them. They know not what they do.
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#276 |
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#277 | |
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From firsthand knowledge Phillip's degenerate behavior is regarded as rumors. All the readers really need to know how LSM was able to keep a lid on the Phillip Lee scandal is read Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!" Having this understanding you will see truth is substituted for falsehood and falsehood is substituted for truth. SO, brothers and sisters accept what they are told as truth. It's like this, Witness Lee and the ones doing his bidding (some of which are known as blended brothers) pass a lie as being truth. The local elders don't know any better. Out of respect, they have no reason to doubt so they unwittingly pass on lie's to their congregations as being true. Brothers and sisters in the congregations respect their elders and see no reason why their elders would lie to them. As a result you have seeking brothers and sisters who go by what "the brother's say". |
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#278 |
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Obviously the simple point of the story went over your head ... that is, in most situations, there are two ways of looking at it, half-empty or half-full.
Perhaps there is a third way, being "half full of it."
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#279 |
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I am going to make an attempt to get this last message of the Chinese speaking conference(last speaking of Lee) for my own edification. But to think that WL had any kind of real repentance is hard for me to understand. I saw a video of WL's last words and two of them were, (tell my wife I have taken care of her) and the last was (sacrifice, or a synonym). It would seem to me that the word to his wife indicated he was still in control although he had maybe only a few hours or minutes to live. Maybe he thought his minions should or would repent and change their ways but since he didn't, why would we expect them to repent or change. And they didn't. It seems to me they got worse but that is not necessarily true.
Dictators never change except to die or get killed. Stalins death changed Russia really very little. Lee's death didn't change the lc at all. Sects that last for 50 years or more are going to stay. I had a cousin who claimed she was a dyed in the hide Baptist and she and family were such to death. All sects are that way and the lc won't be any different. What really scares me is that the lc is changing. The BBs are sanitizing the past history so that new ones will have no reason to search the past. What do the catholics know or care about the past. Might the lcs be the same? The future lcers won't know they are following a bunch of lyers and in one generation they won't even be lyers but just stupid. Sad, sad, sad! Lisbon |
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#280 | |
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What if? If it's available to order, LSM stands by their publication. If it's unavailable to order, it's a subtle way of saying we at LSM regret this book was published and that it contains many serious mistakes. |
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#281 |
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#282 | |
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In a hundred years no one will have heard of John Ingalls, Philip Lee, et al. But LSM will still be publishing Nee and Lee books, by a whole new set of Blended Brothers. So Lee's Recovery farce will continue. Buyer beware.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#283 | |
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But that does not mean that they knew anything about his philandering and other sins, or that daddy Lee had driven off the few that attempted to have baby Lee removed from his position in the LSM. They just knew about the enforcer Lee.
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#284 |
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www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNeeLeeEras.pdf
"I shall walk in my integrity" - King David, Israel When I started this thread I stated that "Although there are legitimate reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." And, this is why I am here again, since the church administration apparently prefers I write rather than be restored to fellowship in the churches. If I am in the church life I am positive for the things in the church life; if I am cut off I address the things that ought to be addressed for truth's sake and a positive outcome for the churches. www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNeeLeeEras.pdf |
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#285 |
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To Local Church Leaders in the U. S. and around the globe,
I was in the “local churches” for 30 years, 1971-2001 and still manage to have a basic positive view of them. Last year I began to meet with a group quite similar to them, without the drama, yet with the same origin, that is, with a leader having come out of China under Watchman Nee’s early tutelage. The teachings are the same in the essential truths of the Bible and they have a similar goal of life, gospel and the building up of the Body of Christ for a testimony of God. They meet as assemblies in the U. S. and around the world, rather than as the church in a city. They are careful in receiving believers according to Christ as their one and only center, and they have received me gladly and others I bring. A sister asked me this week after our prayer meeting how I came to their fellowship at Seattle Christian Assembly. I told her, “by a brother’s recommendation”, John Ingalls, from Southern California. She soon found out I was associated with Witness Lee in the past, about whom she (and her husband) heard from two friends in India, how one brother was “burned” and the other became discouraged. I identified with what she then said about the attention given Witness Lee and his ministry (minister of the age), with, perhaps, as many say, more attention given to his publications than to the Bible (ministry of the age). This was of concern to her two friends. I then testified that I wasn’t like that and that many others in the Local Churches do take the Word first, of course; but also allow the help of a ministry to enhance their understanding and appreciation of what they read. I told her this is what I have done and why there is a deposit in me (that I draw from in our smaller meetings). The concern of her two friends also was that “they call themselves the church. This and the lifting up of only one man and his ministry alarmed her very much. I told her that if she went to some meetings that she would understand more about their appreciation, but that this was indeed a problem and has led to division. I shared with her what I spoke briefly on at the beginning of this writing, which Watchman Nee had once shared more fully on, “Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And, whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but any company of believers that has a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not. (Normal Christian Church Life) “Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes those who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God.”(p. 184, Nee) In their church life at Seattle Christian Assembly, they don’t lift up anyone, but the Lord Jesus Christ. They are trained to be focused on Him in all things, in service, in the gospel, in the meetings. They are a praying church. They pray before meetings, going to different rooms, they pray in the meetings, they pray for speakers and serving ones, for new ones, for unbelieving members of families, for the physically weak, for the unemployed, and for a conference in July! And all aspects of it: “Please pray for Stephen Kaung’s health. He is currently experiencing pain in his sciatic nerve, which is hampering the mobility of his left leg. His eyes are also suffering age – related macular degeneration. May the Lord use His power to heal our brother so that he could get well quickly.” __He is scheduled to speak at the West Coast Conference (at 100 years old) along with three other speakers. There is no book room (that I have seen yet) No plate is passed or place available to drop a money envelope (that I have seen yet) There are also no testimonies. There is a speaker with a translator for English, then we are dismissed to the cafeteria across the hall for lunch, after every Sunday morning meeting where fellowship could ensue from the meeting, or otherwise. There are opportunities for testimonies and sharing in several small group meetings throughout the week. There is no scriptural reason for any division to exist between a Witness Lee led group of believers and one where Stephen Kaung’s presence has been felt. Believers who possess the same essential extracts of truth from God’s word should come together as adherents of the same cause. Stephen Kaung would welcome this joining together of members under the headship of Christ for the building up of the Body in Love that the world may know....He has approached them before but to no avail at that time. But today, especially with the world situation and war looming, and end-time prophecy possibly unfolding before us, we should give heed to our calling to make straight the way of the Lord and take care of the oneness in His Body, the church universal and local and go opposite of a crumbling scene around us to proceed on the earth by taking an upward path in our spirits to the Throne. We owe this to the Lord, to the co-workers of the faith, to fellow believers, to relatives and friends and to people in every land - to be one …even as “I and the Father are one..." John 17 new version www.twoturmoils.com/HidingHistoryofNeeLee.pdf Steve Isitt stephen.isitt@gmail.com April 3, 2015 |
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#286 |
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Bro Indiana, please forgive my rudeness, but is a connection to Nee required for an expression of Christianity to be legitimate and pleasing to the Lord? Must all legitimate Christian expression proceed from some connection to Nee? Have you not seen that there is only one oracle of God and that is Christ Jesus? Do you not understand there was only one apostle Paul and that he referred to himself as the least of all the saints? So who is this Nee that you highly regard? Is he an angel? The oracle of God? An apostle at the level of Paul? Is he even the equivalent of Luther? No. Nee was a dear brother whose writings have helped many increase their love and appreciation of our Lord Jesus Christ, but he was also the one that spawned Lee and the extremes his movement has foisted upon the body of Christ. You have given up Lee, it is now time for you to give up Nee and to look to the Lord Jesus Christ and to the ministry of the true apostle of the age, Paul.
Last edited by HERn; 04-04-2015 at 02:44 PM. Reason: Edit |
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#287 |
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My experience more often then not, if there is taking the Word first, it's immediately followed by an intense focus on the footnotes. If one has a recovery version without the footnotes, they will be encouraged to get a recovery version with footnotes.
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#288 | |
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#289 | |
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#290 | |
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#291 |
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A brother where I meet, Godwin Sun, shares in a booklet called "Our Goal", "Forgive me for saying this, but if we have this attitude, we will be a problem in Christ's body. Not one person in the church should feel that they have a special position. Only Christ has the position of being the Head and we are all members of His body....Fellowship is the life flowing one to another..."
I shared in my letter, "Stephen Kaung would welcome this joining together of members under the headship of Christ for the building up of the Body." "Believers who possess the same essential extracts of truth from God’s word should come together as adherents of the same vision." Nee and Lee have noted that they stand on the shoulders of others in recovering these essential truths. We realize this also. They knew who they got help from. Many of us also realize who we got immense help from. |
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#292 | |
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They were/are eventually for "the ministry", but he remains here for the church. If you look at it that way it seems pretty simple. And thus his stubborn refusal to give up on his dreams.
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#293 | |
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Indiana (Steve Isitt) has benefited all of us ex-members with his research and networking with many former members, including well-respected former leaders. In this regard, he understands the Recovery probably as well as any. His ability to document our history has been tremendously informative. I consider him to be like the "Ken Burns" of the LCM in the US. As far as his lack of participation on the forum goes, there are many others who this forum as a clearinghouse for their writings. I think this mix of historical accounts and daily feedback is what makes this forum so beneficial.
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#294 | |
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#295 | |
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I understand trying to warn the deceived, but it seems one should be content with people leaving the movement to take the way of the Lord. Reforming the movement (any movement for that matter) is not part of the Great Commission. Certainly I want to help as many LCMers as possible. But my hope for them is for something outside that movement. God doesn't call us to save movements, but people. Movements are a dime a dozen and when they've outlived their usefulness we should not be sentimental about them. It's my opinion (and just my opinion) that Indiana is still a bit confused about the difference between the church and a movement. The church is the people, nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps you could add in the faith and some very broad doctrines. But the rest is just the horse the church rides, and as much as we might like the old steed, when it's time to put her out to pasture and saddle up another, it's time. In the case of the LCM, the old nag is way past due and in fact ready for the glue factory. The LCM does not have "first dibs" on being the church. It never did and it seems to me Indiana's efforts still reveal a belief that for God to "go on" he must reform that movement. Nothing could be further from the truth. Still perhaps his efforts are a genuine expression of care for the people. If so, great. But after a certain point we should not waste any more time trying to reform any movement. Thinking that God must go through "the Recovery" to get things done shows a very distorted view of God and reality. If a movement gets to an intractable point our call should change from "repent" to "come out of her my people." God will not be held hostage by anyone; and he is jealous for his people, not any movement or "Recovery." |
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#296 | |
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Without his contribution, would there be any way to correlate the late 80's turmoil to that of 2004-2006? In each of these turmoils, brothers are marked negatively for expressing their concerns. |
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#297 |
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I didn't want to take anything away from Indiana's invaluable research and documentation of the history of the LCM. As with Lilly Hsu's book, church historians will find his work useful.
However, again, I have detected in his work a thread which seems to reveal a devotion to restoring a movement. This may be rooted in a mistaken devotion to this idea of "recovery"--recovery realized as a special privilege movement within the church as a whole. The problem with anything like this is that it displaces our proper devotion to God coupled with care and service for all people, and replaces it with devotion to an abstract idea or institution. The same problem occurs with devotion to "the Church," when the Church is seen as anything but God's people. Lee taught us to be devoted to "the Church" as a ideal, not as simply God's people. So people became expendable, and the end of the gospel became not the salvation of people but the production of an idealized and impersonal institution, "the Church." Human history generally and church history specifically are full of examples of devotion to even the best idea eventually doing damage. Once we make the end an idea (e.g. the Recovery, the Church, reason, liberty, equality, whatever) then people become a means to that end, and sacrificing people for that end becomes standard and acceptable. We heard time and again, "We must be for the Recovery," and even "God loves his Recovery." Both those quotes are false. We should be for God and people, because that's all God loves and expects us to love. Anything else and be alert for the devil's wiles. |
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#298 | |
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#299 |
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#300 | |
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I would have to agree with SR. Living Stream Ministry is a revenue generating business. Regardless of a business' tax status, they do have to generate revenue. For Living Stream, whether it's through book sales or real estate. As I see Steve's writing. it's not a matter of changing the recovery, but to tell the truth. If there is any impact to be made I hope it is the spiritual principle of reconciliation. I know it has to a degree, Steve's writing has produced a spiritual responsibility to reconcile. Whether or not any of the blended brothers have an ear to hear, it's on each of them individually before God. |
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#301 | |
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"I would just add this: In 1988 certain co-workers severely criticized Brother Lee, and then they separated themselves, they went their own way. One of these brothers, in particular, his whole situation is tragic. I would like to ask him, after you wrote that letter to Brother Lee, and after you began to speak a certain way, what is your spiritual situation? How would you compare it with your situation when you were in Elden Hall? Aren’t you more experienced now than then? Would you say you are more living now?" Although Ron didn't mention brother Bill's name as he did brother Steve's, we can deduce it was Bill who Ron was referring to. Of course it was not revealed when Bill had heart surgery in 2001, a brother from Riverside came to Anaheim and approached the blended brothers present about visiting Bill in the hospital. They declined.
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#302 |
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Col 3:12 - 3:15 RCV
Put on therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, inward parts of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, long-suffering; Bearing one another and forgiving one another, if anyone should have a complaint against anyone; even as the Lord forgave you, so also should you forgive. And over all these things put on love, which is the uniting bond of perfectness. And let the peace of Christ arbitrate in your hearts, to which also you were called in one Body; and be thankful. How ironic that some brothers can write and speak volumes on these verses and have absolutely no experimental reality of them in their own lives - year after year, training after training. One has to wonder if they have any "inward parts". Just goes to show that we DO NOT grow in life by going to trainings or getting the "ministry into us". We grow in life by denying ourselves. -- That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His Death |
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#303 |
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http://www.twoturmoils.com/Theocracy...alChurches.pdf
Ron Kangas – Thank you for the invitation, Chris, to participate in this particular radio program introducing quite a marvelous subject, of theocracy, of the rule of God…. I hope that we can be very exercised in our spirit and with our understanding …In Deuteronomy is a record of the children of Israel, a type of us, the believers, the church people today, so there must be a spiritual reality in the church life that corresponds to the outward picture of theocracy among the children of Israel. (LSM radio transcription). Witness Lee – We have to know that today in the church we don’t exercise autocracy, a dictatorship; or democracy, according to people’s opinion; but we like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government. Firstly, you must have the judges in order to keep God’s justice. The divine government pays attention firstly to justice. Even today, any government on this earth that does not practice justice, that government will sooner or later be over, right? A strong government must be one that is built upon justice. Everything must be just. Everything must be fair. Everything must be right. Right? This is justice. (LSM radio transcription) |
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#304 |
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Any comments on what you post?
Are they right, wrong, partly both? Is there truth but misapplied?
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#305 |
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I won't be adding any further material on the subject, and shortened link content in post #303.
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#306 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Since the original "Church in Los Angeles" spit into different halls, and since the advent of the early migrations, the Local Churches in America had an "extra-local leader" and his name was Witness Lee. Any other so called "co-worker" or any kind of regional leader was in fact just a "regional manager" of sorts, with the elders functioning as "branch managers" of sorts. Lee was the CEO/CFO/President all wrapped into one. Actually this was "the system" set up by Watchman Nee back in Mainland China from the very beginning. Of course Witness Lee enhanced and perfected the system. While Lee was alive there was a tacit understanding by all that this system was in place and that's just how things were. Of course anyone who challenged the system was severely dealt with, by removal, shunning or the dreaded "quarantine". Today, the "Blended Brothers" don't even try to deny the system or the history of this system. There is indeed an extra-local leader, it is "the ministry" aka "the One Publication". While Lee was alive the Local Churches were lead and controlled by the person and work of Witness Lee. Now that the person is gone they only have the work, and this is why the Local Church looks and behaves very much like the systematic, institutionalized, religious organization that it has decried for 50 years.
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#307 | |
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#308 |
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In other words you are continuing to post "facts" but making no comments on them, thereby leaving it unclear what you are trying to say. And since you have in other contexts seemed to say things that have gone both ways over time, that lack of clarity is fairly significant.
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#309 | |
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I made more changes and want to re-post the link on Theocracy. Government in the Local Churches Our brothers in Christ have taken bold and daring steps to become what they are, ministry churches of Witness Lee. This is what they have labored for, and this is what they have gained. I wish they would admit what they are, instead of pretending to be the recovered New Testament church, inclusive of all believers in autonomous “local churches” around the world. They have had no shame about promoting a man next to the Lord Jesus, or for establishing a second center to draw people to him in oneness with his ministry and leadership. Due to their lofty standing of ultimately endorsing a “minister of the age” with the “ministry of the age”, it is hard for the leaders to practice justice in cases that shine light unfavorably on the name of Witness Lee - the name they live to protect. Practicing justice in such cases is not what they do; it is what they most assuredly choose to avoid. Because of this, government in the Local Churches has not been built upon justice. Instead, their architect and builders are widely known for their absurd practice of not caring for right and wrong - the antithesis of a true theocracy, a government built upon justice, according to God and what He is. |
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#310 | |
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THE SUBTLE ISSUES OF RIGHT AND WRONG DURING THE LATE EIGHTIES REBELLION I was listening to a tape by Ron Kangas (from 1997) encouraging saints to follow the sense of life in a normal way in their daily life and not care for issues of right or wrong, when I came to this statement: “How many were lured away during the last rebellion (late 80s) by subtle issues of right and wrong.” Referring to the talk going around in the church about certain issues, he said, “What a travesty that the saints of God would speak out of the knowledge of good and evil and kill each other.” He added, “I simply will not sit in a brothers’ presence and allow him to fill me with death,” meaning that he would not listen to those concerned with issues of right and wrong in the church. What were those issues of right and wrong, brother Ron, in the late 80s turmoil? Didn’t you write about them in your book, A Response to Recent Accusations, in which you recorded your disagreement with the 18 points John Ingalls made to the church in his resignation fellowship? Brother Lee also spoke to these issues that John Ingalls raised, saying that, “In his withdrawal from the eldership of the church in Anaheim on March 19, 1989, Brother John Ingalls charged us with a number of accusations concerning our present situation. Hence, I have the burden to present to the saints in the Lord’s recovery some truths that will blow away the cloud that has dimmed the clear vision of the Lord’s recovery among us, and will bring back to us a clear sky with a clear view in the recovery.” Then, brother Lee goes on to explain his disagreement with “John’s dissenting accusations”. (Book 10, Elders’ Training, ch. 6, p. 93) What two major leaders in the Lord’s recovery referred to as “subtle issues” and “dissenting accusations”, others regarded as major matters of Christian conscience and causes of stumbling that needed desperate attention from responsible church leaders. http://www.twoturmoils.com/SubtleIssues.pdf |
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#311 | |
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Brothers who say they don't want to be concerned with right and wrong, that's because to be concerned with right and wrong is not the expedient thing to do. To be concerned with right and wrong, righteousness, and justice is neither convenient nor practical. LSM's practice of political correctness promotes expediency even if it may be improper or even immoral.
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#312 |
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What Ron Kangas flippantly discards as "subtle issues of right and wrong" are actually grave matters of sin and unrighteousness. When I hear this nonsense from someone in the know, then I realize what grave darkness and blindness has descended over time upon the leadership at LSM. For decades they have been complicit with crimes and coverups against their brothers.
Isn't it so hypocritical that RK could say this about so many former members and leaders, all of whom beloved and godly, and then when genuinely "subtle issues of right and wrong" arise in nearly all of the Midwest and Brazil, he sees fit to quarantine and excommunicate them as as incurably rebellious lepers. If anyone wishes to know who the Blended leadership at LSM really are, tell them to read what the Lord Jesus Himself says of and to the Pharisees in the Gospels and what the Apostle Paul says about the Judaizers. Let me give you an appetizer from the book of Philippians: "Beware of dogs! Beware of evil workers!"
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#313 | |
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Every single brother I knew believed that our mission was "Christ and the church," and that we gave our lives for the building up of autonomous local churches. That's why many of them left their denominations. Every message Lee and others gave in the beginning days supported this mission statement. Many who came this way did so after reading Nee's book TNCCL. Now whether Lee, or leaders like RK, BP, TC or others had this view is doubtful, since I have witnessed so much meddling in local affairs by these ones.
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#314 | |
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And though I do not think we were really that "right" before, at least we woke up. But I am becoming more and more convinced that even many of our positive experiences in the earlier (earliest) days were tainted by the shadow of a leavened teaching. Even Christ and the church, because we were misdirected to a version of both that was not true to the Word.
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#315 | |
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I wouldn't be surprised if most denominations have followed a similar road. The RCC definitely did. Remember that the lust for power always corrupts, and the powers-that-be love to use distorted oneness to subjugate the sheep.
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#316 |
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While I think that there is some truth in what you are saying, I also think that we have a distorted view of people who truly serve the Christians with whom we align themselves to follow. Not just in local assemblies, but also within denominations. And sometimes in denominations that we might not personally find as appealing as others. We were conditioned for so many years to distrust all non-LCM leadership that we still have something inside that is expecting the kind of self-prompting leadership that we were taught to expect.
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#317 |
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Witness Lee: When you are talking about a brother’s wrongdoing, you better be careful, not too much. To degrade a brother in people’s eyes is sinful. Don’t forget that brother has been purchased with a great price, that is, with the blood of the Lord. This is to keep the justice among God’s people.
Ron Kangas: In His kingdom there must be justice. Where justice is violated, there must be some just measure of discipline. That’s the way it is. So we have a case of a wrongdoer receiving discipline. But according to our fallen nature when we feel we’re right and that others are wrong, its really easy for us not to be restrained in our expression of judgment, criticism, or condemnation. God is not like this, and if we are like this we are not living in the theocracy according to what God is. Example 2 http://twoturmoils.com/RonKangasManofDeath.pdf http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...servidores.mp3 |
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#318 |
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On sensing death - when I initially read Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, I was positive, wholly so. Yet I sensed death, and became confused: I wanted life and yet came to the ministry and got death? What to do? (also got death when reading Witness Lee vs Bible Answer Man [at Melodyland], and hearing Ron Kangas speak of those who didn't make the cut [Titus Chu, Max Rapoport, Jane Anderson]). LC'ers should realize that "sensing death" cuts two ways: if you live by this sword you'll eventually die by it.
Second, and quite related: if you look at theocracy as presented in the Bible, the promoted human King, heir of Davidic line*, is fully obedient to God the Father in heaven, and as such becomes peace and salvation to all who obey Him. Please note well that Psalm 2 follows hard upon Psalm 1, and fulfills it. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness. Jesus kept the law, utterly. So He's the True King, the Anointed (Gk:Christ) Son of God, glorified forever. Now the enemy comes in and usurps this: see Psalm 3. Absalom rebels. Someone else, a sinner, disobedient, and not anointed, comes in and proclaims that he's the new King, the new Deputy God. A sinner, unauthorized, promotes himself into the position of kingship, which should be held by Jesus alone. Chaos ensues; look at all the vain efforts to maintain the so-called Authority of this usurping one, in the context of Little Flock/Local Church history. Storm after storm. Turmoil after turmoil. *Matthew 21:9 "The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest heaven!"
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#319 |
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From an LSM radio broadcast, Ron Kangas speaks about the church life corresponding to a theocracy and the kind of men needed to judge cases among them, men who would be fair, just, and unbiased. We have seen anything but such men in Local Church government in cases they made public and in many other cases that have come to our attention, such as in the Sandoval letters.
Ron Kangas says in the broadcast: "Israel is a type of us, the believers, the church people today, so there must be a spiritual reality in the church life that corresponds to the outward picture of theocracy among the children of Israel in Deuteronomy." (LSM Radio on Deut.) Ron in Ecuador link In the link below, Ron advises the responsible brothers in South America to protect the church by avoiding the spreading of death, yet the blending brothers themselves have been major conduits of its spread. http://www.twoturmoils.com/RonKangas...tingChurch.pdf |
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#320 |
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Funny that the quote provided I did not find in the one-page pdf linked afterward. And they were not really on the same subject.
These say-nothing posts are getting a bit irritating. And the disconnect between the topic of the post and the topic of the link makes is all the more irritating.
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In Bill Mallon's letter to Witness Lee he describes the troubling maneuvering of co-workers of Witness Lee in the Southeast to establish ministry-centered churches. Ron Kangas refers to Bill's letter in his message in Ecuador after denouncing me for putting the letter on the internet. Then, before the Body, he dismisses Bill's letter and Bill, with no regard for his testimony or the divisive behavior of the co-workers. I am denounced, Bill's experience is disregarded, and Ron pushes his agenda forward in South America, in Christless fashion, to establish ministry churches in alignment with him, with Anaheim, with the program - in the same spirit of the movement Bill Mallon reported 20 years earlier.
EXCERPT FROM BILL'S LETTER 6. "The young trainers (Minoru Chen, Howard Higashi, Paul Hon, Jake Jacobson, Benson Phillips, Dan Towle, Andrew Yu) during the 1986 summer training in Irving had sessions of so called fellowship with the elders, grouped according to the different sections of the country, held in Benson's house. Some of these were overheard while eating lunch, analyzing the brothers in order to categorize them, identifying the brothers who presumably control in order to isolate them, and plotting to force the brothers into a mass resignation in order to manipulate them. Then in the afternoon meeting, these trainers intimidated the brothers with statements like: 'You have an incurable disease,' 'the only cure is amputation,' 'you are a babylonian protestant, because you do not preach that Witness Lee is a one man show,' 'we preach that Witness Lee is a one man show. and you brothers have a problem with this,' 'everyone must go to Taipei to show your oneness', and 'asking what to do is the old way... just present yourself, and don't ask questions.' Don Rutledge tried to speak, but the thick intimidating atmosphere suppressed him. He was later branded with being in the old way. Afterwards, these young trainers said, "We have to be better prepared so no one can speak up like Don did." What kind of attitude is this when brothers should be practicing the inner anointing and the mutual fellowship? You cannot imagine how threatening the atmosphere was, being full of ultimatum and denouncements. In summary, there was no sense of their identification with the Body, speaking from a mutuality as being members one of another, sharing from the intrinsic flowing out of the divine fellowship. Instead, it tends to tear down, not build up." Bill's Letter and Witness Lee's Response in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. WL did not mention Bill's letter to let people know about Bill's experience with WL's co-workers. www.twoturmoils.com/MallonLeeHidingHistory.pdf Ron speaks about Bill Mallon in Ecuador, "In 1988 certain co-workers severely criticized Brother Lee, and then they separated themselves, they went their own way. One of these brothers, in particular, his whole situation is tragic. I would like to ask him, ‘after you wrote that letter to Brother Lee, and after you began to speak a certain way, what is your spiritual situation? How would you compare it with your situation when you were in Elden Hall'? Aren’t you more experienced now than then? Would you say you are more living now’? When many rebelled against brother Watchman Nee, and some of them wanted to be recovered, Brother Lee asked them, ‘how is your situation? You say you are right, you say Brother Nee was wrong’. They all confessed they were dead. If we would practice this one way of discernment, we would avoid most problems. I am not afraid to be simple in this way, You say this, and you say this, I don’t know the facts, I don’t know who is right or wrong. But I know when I listen to you, I get death. And, when I listen to Brother Lee’s ministry, I get life. So it is so simple, I stand with life. Why do you feel you have to know so much? It’s endless trying to know so much. Now I hope you can understand experientially, what I am saying. But if you cannot discern between life and death, I have a suggestion for you, withdraw from responsibility in the church until the life in you grows. Those who take responsibility must have this discernment….. END Ron's use of the story of Witness Lee's not so honorable blind loyalty support for W. Nee, is no way to shame Bill Mallon and it was no way for Lee to shame the elders in Shanghai during Nee's righteous suspension as we have learned from the accounts of ones who were in Shanghai made known in Dr. Lily Hsu's book... And, Ron Kangas doesn't explain why brother Lee was "severely criticized" by brothers, who, he said, "went their own way". |
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#322 |
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Dear brother Steve,
First let me say that I appreciate your dedication and resoluteness in defending the truth, believing that the Lord leads you to do so. I would just ask you to please explain your use of the term "Body" instead of perhaps a more appropriate term like "assembly". In and of itself, the Body of Christ encompasses all truly regenerated believers who are sealed with His Holy Spirit. Not just members of the LC who share the same experience. To refer to the LC or any other group as the "Body" sends the wrong message and reinforces the sectarian nature of the LC as being the only true Body of Christ. Do you actually believe that the LC is "The Body" ? Perhaps your use of the term itself is simply from habit. Praying for you and the LC John |
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#323 | |
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Thank you, John. You make an important point. I used the term "Body" purposely as I was referring to the members of the Body of Christ sitting before Ron, with whom he needs to be honest, many of whom he would choose to discard, I believe, due to their "independence" from him and Anaheim headquarters. He is more in line with what Lee warned about becoming, a church of Gideon and his 300 men. I am currently meeting in an assembly associated with Stephen Kaung. They speak of the Body of Christ, but never limited to themselves as a special, separated group of elite believers. They are are well-taught that they are but an assembly of believers, one with every believer, and should behave this way. I know the strong tendency in the Local Churches....their appreciation is very high for a man and his ministry...thus the movement. http://www.twoturmoils.com/TheChurch...dHis300Men.pdf |
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#324 |
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Thank you for clearing that up Steve. I also appreciate the ministries of Kaung and others associated with the assemblies. I attended the summer conference in Virginia. I had a most glorious time. Met a lot of former members of the LC who continue to rejoice in the Lord. Thankfully, Stephen was all to aware of the mis-aimings of his former co-worker to repeat those mistakes, having had some experience with the LSM sect's "take-over mentality" with the assemblies in New York.
The fact is, the current executives of the LSM churches practice a type of conditional "life and death" philosophy which is extremely nefarious. It is a counterfeit of true light given by the Holy Spirit, whereby members of the business churches are taught ( brainwashed to use a stronger but accurate term) to discern what is life and what is death by what comes out of Anaheim. The continued practice, reinforcement and acceptance of this lie deepens its hold on the members the longer they are exposed to it. Eventually, they are no longer able to discern for themselves making it extremely difficult to shake this concept even after leaving the sect. The proof of this is the blendeds themselves ( at least some of them ). They have completely lost the ability to discern what is truly life and what is actually death, often confusing the two. Ron's statement about you is a perfect example that this brother is spiritually sick. May the Lord have mercy on all of us. It is so easy to be deceived. May the Lord continue to strengthen you by the bountiful supply of His Spirit John |
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#325 | |
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#326 |
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Back to Steve's writing, blendeds such as Ron among so-called responsible brothers in the local churches view themselves as deputy or delegated authorities of a theocracy.
Following is from Exodus 18:17-26 "Moses’ father-in-law said to him, “The thing that you are doing is not good. You will surely wear out, both yourself and these people who are with you, for the task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now listen to me: I will give you counsel, and God be with you. You be the people’s representative before God, and you bring the disputes to God, then teach them the statutes and the laws, and make known to them the way in which they are to walk and the work they are to do. Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens. Let them judge the people at all times; and let it be that every major dispute they will bring to you, but every minor dispute they themselves will judge. So it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you. If you do this thing and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all these people also will go to their place in peace.” So Moses listened to his father-in-law and did all that he had said. Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens. They judged the people at all times; the difficult dispute they would bring to Moses, but every minor dispute they themselves would judge." Leading brothers, Coworkers, elders, etc don't fit the bill described in the preceding verses. No desire to hear any dispute; major or minor. Steve knows. He tried to appeal to brothers locally in Seattle and Bellevue. No one had an ear to hear. Responsible brothers in general just want everyone to go along positively. Don't make an issue of matters, persons or things. By contrast that is what Moses selection of responsible men was for. To hear disputes of matters, persons, or things. With the most serious of disputes brought before Moses. Thus it is quite clear the deputy authority that exists in the local churches is not God's government. There is no resemblance of righteousness or justice. It's fleshly, dishonest and partial.
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If this is pure redundancy, please delete.
It seems incredible that very shortly before the cross, the Lord caught his disciples arguing about who was to be boss, MOTA, dictator, oracle,etc. He spoke directly to the problem. Hear me you disciples, what you are talking about is the way the gentiles operate. With you it is not going to be that way. Whoever is to be great is going to be your servant. It seems that's not that difficult to understand. No kings, dictators, oracles. By the way oracle is not mentioned in the NT except refering to the OT. Peter instructs all of us to speak as oracles of God but never one Oracle. No singular apostle, only apostles spoken of in NT. I almost wanted to vomit at poor RK's going on about WL as a bond slave at the time of Lee's passing. I never heard of anyone disagreeing with WL and living to tell about it. WL had no co-Workers. What? A slave. It's just plain silly. Lisbon |
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#328 | ||
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#329 | |
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John Ingalls in Talks with Bill Mallon “In the following month, September 1987, due to my health, and also due to a burden to fellowship with Bill Mallon, a co-worker with whom I had an intimate relationship for twenty-four years, I decided to go to Atlanta, Georgia, for a two-week period of rest and fellowship. Bill had recently passed through sore trials and sufferings, and I hoped that our fellowship could render comfort and encouragement to him. We drove up to the nearby mountains and had a number of days opening to one another. At that time I was entirely supportive to Brother Witness Lee and his ministry and work related to the “new way” that was being promoted. I therefore did my utmost to persuade Bill to visit Taiwan and participate in the full-time training. I felt that this might be the answer to his need. On four separate occasions during those days I attempted to convince Bill to take this step, but he steadfastly refused, affirming that he was not free or clear to do that. During that time Bill explained to me how he had suffered in various ways by events that had transpired in recent months in the churches and in the work in the Southeast. I came away from our talks with one deep impression: Philip Lee was becoming increasingly involved in spiritual things concerning the Lord’s work, the churches, the elders, and the co-workers. I had already noticed this in Irving, Texas the preceding month. This, I felt, was completely untenable, incompatible with his position and person, and intolerable. Philip Lee was employed by his father, Witness Lee, to be the business manager of his office and was reportedly instructed to deal only with business affairs. He was totally unqualified both in position and character to touch spiritual matters related to the work of the Lord and the churches. I became alarmed and began to fear for the Lord’s testimony. With this burden I determined upon my return to Anaheim to fellowship with Godfrey Otuteye, who then was involved in coordinating with Philip Lee in the Living Stream Office. I wanted to frankly ask him about Philip’s role, expressing my alarm and concern”. Discussion Concerning LSM Manager Godfred had been an elder in the church in Irvine, California, for close to ten years, and had recently been appointed as an elder in Anaheim by Brother Witness Lee. Thus we had been put into a position of more intimate fellowship and coordination. I had known Godfred since 1972 and over the years had numerous occasions of fellowship with him. I respected him for his genuineness, wisdom, and devotion to the Lord. Hence, upon returning from Atlanta on Sept. 22, 1987, I made an appointment for dinner with Godfred on September 25, Friday evening. We sat together in the restaurant, and after some general conversation, I said to him in a serious tone, “Godfred, I would like to ask you a question. Would you please tell me who Philip Lee is? It seems that he is being promoted and is going altogether too far in his involvement in the spiritual side of the work, greatly overstepping his position as a business manager. Have you noticed this? I myself could never agree with this.” It seemed that my question took him by surprise. We had never discussed these matters before. He hesitated a few moments. Then, in a very grave tone, he replied, “John, the situation is very serious.” If he was surprised by my question, I was somewhat taken aback by his answer. Godfred continued, “I have seen and heard many things in the Living Stream Office in recent months. I cannot go into detail, but I can tell you there is much that is very serious and very wrong.” Then I began to be more alarmed and concerned. Godfred fully agreed that Philip Lee’s involvement in the work was way out of line, but he indicated that there were more serious things than that. Two days later, on Sept. 27, the Lord’s Day, as we met in the Elders’ Room before the morning meeting on Ball Road, Godfred had a few moments alone with me, and he said, “John, it is very timely that you opened up to me the other night. Let me tell you that the whole situation is sick and corrupt. I have seen and heard too much.” Then I knew that we were really in trouble, though he did not mention any details or any names. A Shocking Development September 1987 On the following Tuesday, Sept. 29th, Godfred left for a business trip to Europe. On the next day, Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her. I had been acquainted with this sister for many years and knew her to be faithful, upright, and trustworthy; therefore, I took her word very seriously. I was amazed that she could put up with such conduct for so long. She stated that she tolerated it only for the sake of Brother Lee and his ministry. She said that she had no other recourse but to resign. I confirmed her intention. That conversation utterly shocked me. I deeply felt that something must be done to acquaint Brother Lee with the situation and to let him know that we would not tolerate it. I obtained Godfred’s telephone number in Europe and called him as soon as the difference in time zones permitted, telling him the things that had come to my ears. Godfred listened and said that he already knew it. I was amazed. That night I considered what could be done. That we had to go to Brother Lee I was certain. Link to John Ingalls' book, Speaking the Truth in Love. www.twoturmoils.com/johningalls.pdf |
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#330 | |
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www.twoturmoils.com/ATrueManofDeath.pdf |
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This restoration letter was read at a church meeting in Anaheim, August 22, 1993, although Philip had never repented for anything publicly or to anyone privately, certainly not elders, and, no sisters at LSM that those who were close to the Anaheim situation heard of. Also, no word was ever given publicly in the churches about Philip Lee’s major role in causing division, as graphically seen interwoven throughout the accounts of John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, and John So.
http://www.twoturmoils.com/PhilipHis...ninAnaheim.pdf |
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Indiana said:
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Just think about how many sinful, unrighteous things were done at LSM because it "pleased Brother Lee."
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#334 |
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Yes Ed also told him, rather mindlessly, that Phillip went to be "with the Lord". I would like to think that he did. However, repentance under those circumstances would involve confession and restitution. Also since none of them think they did anything wrong there is the probability that Phillip never did repent. His fellow co-workers are just as guilty for not taking a stand for righteousness but instead turned against those dear defenseless saints and continue to do so today. How unconscionable, May the Lord Judge and bring about true repentance
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#335 | |
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At this point in time, the facts have long since been made available for those who wish to know the truth. What remains is a need for LC leaders to repent. That may never happen, but what can be done is to help keep LC members from being led astray by these leaders. |
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#336 |
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Another illustration how LSM practices consequentialism....."the end justifies the means".
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#337 | |
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http://www.twoturmoils.com/Appealfor...shipWaived.pdf |
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I find it extremely interesting and quite subtle that James Lee does not go on and finish Paul's letter to the Corinthians. In fact not only does Paul make it abundantly clear what "sins" will not be tolerated in light of the Kingdom of God but also hands over a brother to Satan for the destruction of his flesh because this brother continued to practice such sin. He also warned "The Body" against "tolerating" such behavior and its impact upon their spiritual health. Is this in fact the degraded situation in the LSMLC today? Fortunately, the Corinthians including this brother apparently repented and were restored because of Paul's "strong" word. James Lee and the leaders of the LSMLC need to move on to II Corinthians and make a full repentance. Paul presents the crucified Christ as the solution and not an excuse. No where in both letters does Paul encourage the believers to "get out of their mind" and "just take life". As a matter of fact he encourages them to use their minds to examine the contrast between the crucified Christ and their current living. Its time to get into your mind to examine your heart and then use your mouth to repent dear blendeds!
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#339 | |
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#340 | |
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Why is that? As one poster suggested to me today, could it be sisters in general see through the charade. Or is it something deeper that causes our brother to speak as he does towards sisters?
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#341 | |
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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#342 | |
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Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. The system LSM operates in is much as "shifting shadows". We're familiar with various phrases:
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#343 | |
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But Titus Chu knew. And that's one of the issues I have with him. (The other issue was how he shamed, manipulated, and controlled the brothers.) It was always said in the GLA, that Titus was an "umbrella" to protect us from some of the crazer things that went on at LSM. For some reason, I and others considered that a good thing. What were we thinking? It was not a good thing! Titus, for some reason, was thus often an enabler, and in some cases complicit in a criminal conspiracy, and here I'm thinking about what Norm posted when he and Toledo were asked by Titus to review Benson Philip's official quarantine letter to John Ingalls. The rest of us in the GLA were kept in the dark from knowing the true nature of Lee and Son, who owned and managed LSM. I now agree with this.
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#344 | |
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#345 | |
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I was meeting with the Church in Bellevue in 1997 when the eulogy was given at the memorial service. I distinctly remember thinking "am I the only one thinking how one dimensional they're making brother Lee out to be?" Unrealistic to suggest to the entire recovery Witness Lee would never do what anyone else would do. Or that sin never had a hold on his living. In the years since 1997 it's become evident Reconsideration of the Vision was far more accurate a writing than Fermentation of the Present Rebellion ever was...."lived out God in all his actions"? I don't think so. Well, Witness Lee is gone, but the blendeds have had nearly 20 years to change their speaking. There's been no repentance. They've had plenty opportunity to be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.
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#346 |
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Brother Witness Lee does have a remarkable testimony, but not in the way of being the perfect God-man depicted in his eulogy, in lofty thoughts of him through "monkey vision".
This link provides a timeline of the Witness Lee era. www.twoturmoils.com/EulogizingWitnessLee.pdf |
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#347 | |
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The blendeds have tasked themselves with promoting a man and a ministry, and this has necessitated their monkey vision. I don't think those like Ed have even a second thought about calling themselves monkeys. In their minds, right and wrong is dependent on what supports WL. |
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#348 | |
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Yeah, I'm pretty cynical.
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#349 | |
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What I have seen in the LC is that as people age, the LC is less likely to meet whatever needs it met previously. I’ve seen people leave that I never have expected to, sometimes when “life happens”, or sometimes it’s just because they aren’t getting any attention anymore like they were in college. Whatever the case is, it seems that those who have stayed and are older tend to be excessively needy. For many, it’s probably a cry for help. I feel sorry for them, but there’s not much that can be done. |
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#350 | |
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My question is "what are you actually apologizing for?" Do you have remorse for hurting them or just loosing them? And what "would you do different?" Would you treat these brothers with decency and respect? Would you put an end to public blaming and shaming? No? I didn't think so.
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Quote button not working, so . . . .
Freedom wrote: Quote:
But that was about as close to any contact concerning the situation there was until they all showed up to have a rah-rah session at her funeral (much to the dismay of non LCM relatives). The point here is not to comment on that situation specifically, but to observe how un-attentive to the needs of the "uncomely members" that the LCM displays. They are all about the multi-talented ones, plus those who have the wherewithal to finance their endeavors. The rest can be called "marginal" privately. And the "marginal" label even applies to their financiers in many cases.
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#352 | |
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In other words, you have to be willing to at least try to hang on while suffering in silence. If you are actually thinking that it is beyond sticking around for, it is better that you just go. I got 1 phone call after I left. My wife and I had been sporadic for a while, so in hind sight I think when the gap got bigger it was just an encouragement to get back to a meeting. But we had already been to meetings. Elsewhere. I didn't even tell them that. But no more phone calls.
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#354 |
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Yes, it seems that this is the case. Ironically, sometimes leaders will tell members that the so-called backsliders need to be 'recovered'. If members actually took this to heart and just started contacting people who had left, I'm sure it wouldn't last long before leaders put a stop to it. None of the ex-members I know have anything good to say about the LC.
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#355 |
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![]() Eulogy Signs of Sickness "Whoever wrote the eulogy of Witness Lee was neither honest nor balanced in his thought process. Those who were close to brother Lee who agreed with its dispersion to the churches had spent many years forming an unhealthy and abnormal mindset about their mentor". www.twoturmoils.com/EulogySignsofSickness.pdf |
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#356 | |
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Do they meaning the brothers really want to try to shepherd me? They won't want to know. Any speaking out about the real situation would be considered negative.. ![]() Really all that's wanted is for everyone to go on positively. Any objections to anything isn't wanted.
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#357 | |
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#359 | |
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#360 |
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I would be the first to admit that I have a difficult time seeing things from WL's point of view. Even if I could better understand him, much of the nonsense that transpired towards the end of his ministry still has no viable explanation. He was delusion. Whether that was only limited to 'spiritual' things or not is debatable, but I suspect that he would have been unable to function in the real world outside of a building on Ball Rd.
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#361 |
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But I read the first few pages of The Economy of God some time back (mid-late 60s) and found that it was just as preposterous as the things from later on. The only difference was in how outwardly preposterous that later things were. The earlier things were no less ridiculous. But he was able to use oratorical tricks to bring the listener/reader along. Tricks that would be called logical fallacies in the context of any real search for truth. Assert that the evidence is everywhere yet not provide one example. Declare the evidence to be found in a search that was beyond the possibility of most of the listeners, therefore accepted as claimed.
There is a reason that so many of them are constantly saying "Bro Lee said . . . ." Very seldom saying that the Bible says. In fact, where just reading the Bible is a problem, the answer is found in what Lee said. Moving on. In between, there was a lawsuit with depositions. There were questions asked of him about what he was called. Things like apostle. In all cases he declared that he did not claim such titles and said that he would never allow such a statement to stand if said in his hearing. (Did he really do this or just say so for the deposition? not sure.) But then just a few years later he was proud to be everything that he claimed not to be in those depositions. Did Lee really change? Or did he just get more confident to let his grandiose dreams out of the bag? I suspect more of the latter than the former. He had a history going back to Taiwan, and even to China before that.
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#362 | |
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What I see is that WN served as WL's role-model. WN ruled churches in an autocratic fashion, and that is what WL saw as an example, an example which he imitated. Eventually the lust for power consumed him, just like it would for anyone handed that kind of power. Combined with insulation from criticism and negative feedback, things got more and more bizarre. I think that under different circumstances, namely him not having a free pass to do whatever he chose, yes, his ministry would have still have had that 'fringe' element to it, but things might have not been so bizarre. |
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#363 | ||
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I will say also that many brothers in the GLA still hold to the simple maxim handed down from Titus Chu: W.L. good, B.B. bad.
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#364 | |
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1. He truly repented of what went before and came here with a different attitude. 2. He came here hiding his dark side until he could gain sufficient control over us. My reasons for thinking the second is more likely is that while he was still gentle with us here in America, he went back to Taiwan and cleaned house in a way that was a lot like times yet to come in the U.S. To me, that casts a big cloud over any claim of genuineness in those "Jesus People" days in the 60s and early 70s.
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#365 | |
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Basically, Paul Ma would only verify to you, that WL seemed to be repenting, while Paul was travelling with him the early 60s. For Paul told some of us: "he would just sit in a chair facing the corner, and groan, and say: "O Lord, Mercy! O Lord, Mercy!" for a LONG time (hours?)." That touched me Steve. So I do believe when WL ministered in the early 60s, he was forgiven (...for we have a "big" God!), renewed and a clean vessel, to impart God's precious realities to us at Elden. OBW's 2nd point is covered in a translation from a portion of Larry Chi's book. www.twoturmoils.com/TaipeiHistory.pdf The book by Larry Chi was sent to me from his home in San Francisco in 2003. The selected portion from the book on the Taipei church history was professionally translated here in Seattle. Also, Larry Chi discusses from the Taipei saints' viewpoint,the life practices they heard about in the U. S., and that, before long, was introduced to them by visiting saints, stirred up to share their enjoyment with them. I had two copies of the book that ended up in the hands of two Taiwanese brothers in my area, who wanted to read the book. I got the part I wanted at the time, but it would be good to retrieve the books, if I can, and see now what the teachings were that the brother addressed in the book that he was concerned about. The whole book has not been translated into English that I know of. (In the writing, the names were replaced with blank lines for presenting on the forum.) |
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#366 | ||
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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I, like Mike, must reluctantly defer to the "available history" that we now know of "early Lee" back in Taiwan, and even of the early Lee behind the scenes in the early days here in America. After all, there is ample evidence that he was hiring and firing elders on his personal whim, melding in the affairs of local churches, and even engaging in financial malfeasance back in the 1960s. These are well chronicled facts, and not just the petty grumblings of some bitter, former LC members. (get that, our dear Blended lurkers?)
In any event, I would echo what OBW has just posted: Quote:
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***I actually wrote this post before Indiana made this last post. I have heard of such writings from brothers expressing such things, but this is the first time I have ever seen early Local Church history related in such a detailed and succinct manner. When Indiana gets a chance, maybe he could give us more detail about this book and if it has been fully translated into English yet.*** -
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#367 |
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Yep. There it is. A "cleaning exercise" in 1965. A man who was no longer functioning as an elder, or anything else, in Taiwan returns to oust those who will not put him back on the throne of the MOTA. The term was not yet in play, but he was claiming the top spot that Nee had defined in Spiritual Authority.
Meanwhile, back in America, he was still an itinerant preacher with no place of authority. He may have been seen in the corner saying "Oh Lord, Mercy" over and over, but since the U.S. history is not older than 1962 or 63, to be so dictatorial in 1965 is not really much of a time off. Meanwhile, we in America were just getting ready to see the first of his venture failures in the early-mid 70s. So we had this continuing honeymoon while he was acting very differently to the churches in Taiwan (and possibly elsewhere?). I am having a hard time being very generous concerning his period of repentance because it seems more like those brief forays into Christianity like Bob Dylan did. When things get rough, cry out for mercy (which Lee mocked us for singing in the Psalms) then toss it aside and return to the SOP when things get better. I begin to wonder if he was ever more spiritual in any way than any of the rest of us. Just had the look of it. Reminds me of a discussion between Elizabeth and Jane Bennett concerning Mr. Darcy and Mr. Wickham. I can't find the exact words now, but the paraphrase would be something like "One has all the appearance of propriety while the other actually has the propriety." (I thought I could find a copy in my nook (shared with wife) but it is not there.) Lee clearly created the appearance of a man of God but whether he was actually capable of ever being so is much less certain. (Actually sort of like another comment about Mr. Wickham.) I know that I am being hard on someone who many still think of as a good teacher gone bad. I once thought that way. But my mind began to change in about 2007 (fully 20 years after leaving the LCM). Now I keep seeing reasons that he should never be accorded the rank of "good teacher," or even be a teacher at all. They just keep piling up.
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#368 | |
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The second line is from Jesus. "That's the way it is with gentiles, but it shouldn't be like this with you."
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#369 | |
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I'll never forget the story of the young brother in S. Cal who came up and laid his sizable inheritance at WL's feet. This so-called man of God and apostle of the age, with all his business failures and troubles behind him, which might have taught him to repent and go a different route, still decided to create a motor home company: Daystar. He made one of his sons President, made appeals for "investment" from within the church meetings, etc. What a fiasco. The guy never changed.
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#370 | |
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#371 | |
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The book by Larry Chi, formerly a responsible brother in Taiwan, was sent to me from his home in San Francisco in 2003. The selected portion from the book on the Taipei church history was professionally translated here in Seattle. Also, Larry Chi discusses, from the Taipei saints' viewpoint,the life practices they heard about in the U. S., and that, before long, were introduced to them by visiting saints, stirred up to share what they had been enjoying in the U.S. I had two copies of the book that ended up in the hands of two Taiwanese brothers in my area, who wanted to read the book. I got the part of the book I wanted at the time, but it would be good to retrieve the books, if I can, and see now what the teachings were that the brother had addressed in the book that he was concerned about. The whole book has not been translated into English that I know of. (In the writing, the names were replaced with blank lines for presenting on the forum.) |
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#372 | |
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My primary reason is the one you stated -- why does Lee always come out smelling like a rose and never taking any responsibility for his failures? Why does he assemble this massive smear machine to go after the prophets sent to him by God? How is Lee any different than the Pharisees who killed the prophets sent to them?
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#373 |
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www.twoturmoils.com/PeopleChangeBensonLetter.pdf
Benson Phillip's referral some years ago in a letter to the church in Akron about a comment Witness Lee made that "people change". |
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#374 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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#375 |
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UntoHim, you just said exactly what I said you have said all along and now you say it again. In the future I will no longer say it is you who says what you say and rather just say it myself, and then let you say what you say for yourself.
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#376 |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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What did he just say?
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#377 | |
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In all cases, there was a division between two camps, one group which tried to examine what appeared to be gross financial impropriety, and one group which said, "Ask no questions. Follow blindly." In the case of the phone conversation between Sal Benoit and Witness Lee, and in some of the records of the Estancia Arvore da Vida and Dong Yu Lan, the answer was the same. "None of your business". In the Brasilian case, the answer was phrased thusly: "The business finances of Dong Yu Lan are a black box. You cannot see what is inside." So much for the kingdom of transparency and light. In all cases, asking for transparency led to mass exodus, as all but the "true believers" couldn't handle the stench of hypocrisy. The humble servant of God was revealed to be an autocrat, accountable to no one.
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#378 | |
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Also makes it very interesting that the Lee disciples in Mainland were called "Yellers" and "Screamers" and "Shouters". He noted their numbers approvingly, and called them by this name, before they were revealed to be under cultic influence (Lee is the Fourth of the God head or the Returned Messiah or whatever).
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#379 |
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When we speak of Early Lee and Late Lee, it reminds me that way back (maybe 2005) when posting on the old Berean site, I was struck with the sameness of the new v the old and commented with a line from a song:
Meet the new boss Same as the old boss And was somewhat razzed for saying it. But it is still true. The BBs are like Lee, who was like Nee, who learned from other somewhat abusive persons like ME Barber and the Brethren.
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#380 | ||
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OK, I'm already ducking. ![]()
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#381 | |
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But recall that even Nee's teaching about deputy authority never said "I am the top dog." He always dodged around it. And so did Lee. For some time he refused the title of anything like minister of the age. But he declared that there was a ministry of the age. And made indirect references to the one who brought the ministry. Too much like those "speak of yourself in third person" athletes like Dion Sanders. "Now if a Deon Sanders blah blah blah . . . . " I'm sorry, but if his goal was to become so much, he couldn't declare it too quickly. Maybe some were ready to crown him MOTA in 1975. But it wouldn't fly then. Nor in 1981. But it would come. His position at the top of the spiritual authority chain would be established so that eventually everyone would accept that if he said it, it just had to be true. Therefore, saying "Bro Lee said" would then be OK. But not when the world through a court was looking inside. Given the history of his mentor (Spiritual Authority) and his own history in Taiwan prior to being in the U.S., it is hard to see this as little more than the gradual turning up of the heat until he could openly say he liked being exalted. Given the depth or error in his teachings long prior to 1981, I have a hard time with any claim to "anointed minister of the word" (unless the word referred to was really just his).
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#382 |
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Ohio,
BTW. I am not throwing this at you. You are not the enemy. I just hope that you might see what I think I am seeing, just like you hope the same for what you are seeing. For me, this position concerning Lee has been very helpful in my ability to get past the ideas from his teachings that for so long kept me somewhat distant from the other Christians that I was meeting with. I even still had the idea that I somehow knew more than they did. While I continue to see things in the Bible which I am not that sure many others see, I am much less married to them now and can get along just fine.
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#383 | ||
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So when WL threw down the gauntlet to the Taiwan elders, publicly shaming them, they either had to 'submit or quit'. This way he ensured that whatever number remained, whether it was 150 or 15,000, would be absolute for his ministry. To me, that was clearly the goal the whole time. Even the "storms" and "turmoils" were part of the plan. The "young Galileans" episode and all that. WL was quite willing to shake the Lord's recovery if it left him with people who were absolutely loyal, and would question nothing.
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#384 |
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Fair and simple, we were all conned. There is always a smart when you have to admit you were not that smart. I have been conned several times in my life and usually it involved my wife as well. We took our losses and forgot about it.
It was a little different here however because it involved our walk with God. Beginning in 1972, we had just been enthralled with six months reading of Née. We heard right at first "we read and study Née all the time." For one year maybe." We just pay attention to the "pure" word of God. Really? Witness Lee is just a simple poor Chinaman, no big deal. I still remember the sister who spoke of WL as an apostle. I didn't like it but didn't hear it that much in 72 ,73. There were too many apostles near my business. I considered them all self appointed which I do 40 years later. No high no low. Everyone can speak. We're all the same, equal before the Lord. Of course some more equal than others. I still can remember an elder remarking,"I didn't think "he" would make it." That had a terrible 'ring' to me. The church life was something you had to 'make?" I thought we were born into the church. This all became the garlick room WL talked about so much. We were numbed, befuddled, just like Lee said we were. We were moo cows and we laughed as we were taken down the road of captivity. And we stayed down there for many years. Oh the mercy of the Lord! Lisbon |
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#385 | |
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I saw first hand over a period of years what happens to a brother when removed from the garlic room. After my uncle retired and moved to Central Washington, over a period of some years prior to his passing my uncle became more sensitive especially towards brothers who left the recovery several decades earlier.
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#386 |
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I'm still thinking about that sentence in the quote in post #385:
"Questioning someone’s ideas or opinion in a public setting would cause that person to lose face.” In the USA, Senator Smith can publicly challenge President Jones over monetary or foriegn policy. In fact if Senator Smith is from the opposition party he would be expected to. That is his job. And questioning the Maximum Leader doesn't threaten the social coherence or the viability of governement; rather it is seen as a form of public discourse, and part of the deliberative process. In contrast, in China if you publicly question Chairman Mao, even 40 years after his death, you will lose your job. Because by criticizing Mao you criticize the government, the society, and the people. Social coherence in this cultural milieu demands that the Maximum Leader's 'Face' be preserved. In this vein, Top Brother WL could dismiss the writers and compilers of the scriptural record (e.g. Psalms, Proverbs, Job, James, Jude, Peter, etc) as having 'fallen opinions', while he had none; rather he was fueled by God's revelatory oracle. In this vein, current Top Brother RK could say of WL, 'no self' could be seen in his ministry; not only when he was animatedly speaking in front of a group but 24/7; and this not only because of his personality but because of his position as Maximum Leader. In fact the coherence and identity of the group demanded this. In this vein, WL could say (in Life-Study of John) that Jesus did things according to His will, when Jesus Himself in the same gospel said that He didn't do things according to His will but the will of the Father who sent Him. This NT gospel statement is fully in accord with the OT prophecy: "Behold I come to do Thy will" etc. Yet WL could blatantly overturn this in a public setting and not one dissenting or questioning voice would be raised because to do so would cause WL to lose face, and the viability of the Lord's recovery would then be threatened. Talk about a house built on sand! In this vein, a Blended Brother could say, during one of the "storms" when the evil behaviors of the Maximum Leader's profligate son were exposed, that he was proud to be an ostrich with his head stuck in the sand. Sooner or later you get clear in the LC: to survive you must be an ostrich with your head stuck in the sand. If you do this you'll not only survive but prosper and flourish. In this vein, Larry Chi said that when WL returned to Taiwan in 1970, he shamed and denigrated the elders of the church there for being old and out-dated and missing the move of the Holy Spirit. In so doing he was clearly establishing himself as unquestioned Maximum Leader. No mutuality would be permitted; absolute and explicit hierarchy must be delineated and enforced. I (WL) make you (elders) lose face; you can't make me lose face. And anyone attending LC trainings or conferences sees this pattern of shaming and denigrating from the podium. Individual members, classes or groups are singled out and exposed; however any attempt to reciprocate is deemed rebellion. Taking public shame in the LC to "gain Christ" and to "be perfected", but questioning the Maximum Leader in any way is to "rebel against God's Deputy Authority". In this vein, WL could teach that once per generation God raises up a special vessel to carry out His burden for the age. The apostle of the age and all that... MOTA -ministry of the age. There is one Maximum Leader allowed per generation. All others must "get in line" and "hand over" their material assets and their spiritual journeys. Everything and everyone must be under the aegis of God's Deputy Authority. Social coherence demands it. I must repeat that Chinese culture isn't inferior to that of USA or Germany etc; all are fallen. But in assuming that no trace of worldly human culture tainted his ministry, and also WN's vaunted "Normal Christian Church" model, WL and the the current Leaders of the Lord's Recovery assumed that they could see where others (e.g. 'fallen Christianity') could not. In thinking that they alone could see, their blindness remained (cf John chap 9).
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#387 | |
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One hundred years later, WL returned the favor. We were willing to accept their Eastern imperialism, and the Asian-flavored kingdom of God, if it gave us a leg up on the gospel. Turns out, that it didn't. The "virgin soil" of China wasn't that virginous, after all.
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#388 | |
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Mat 18:15-17 (New American Standard Version): "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." |
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#389 | |
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This thread parallels that somewhat of the Asian Mind and the Western Mind. Those in LSM leadership embrace the characteristic of the Asian culture where authority is absolute and submission is unconditional. As a result those in leadership don't need to be accountable nor responsible to anyone.
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#390 | |
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Two of my posts on Larry Chi book - 2009 http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...21&postcount=3 http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...25&postcount=7 |
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#391 | ||
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Once you see the cultural element in the Leadership structure of the LC, it is hard not to see it. Because it's so obvious.
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#392 | |
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#393 | |
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#394 | |
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Originally Posted by Don Hardy
And there were MANY brothers there, but NOT one asked, “WHO did the seducing, WL?” I did not ask publicly, but I asked (and was answered) within me! "Why, the "little precious man" sitting right in front of us, IS THE MAN who seduced us all!!" Quote:
I believe the delusion of evil spirits was most evident when men who knew better actively halted the voice in their conscience in order to silence the prophets God sent to us.
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#395 |
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Avoiding airing dirty laundry has a pseudo-scriptural spin: "cover the brothers".
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#396 | |
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I seem to recall years ago when LSM had the Manila 1990 meeting transcription. They wanted to make sure John So didn't have the last word. This tells me some of the reports that come out, LSM/DCP isn't refuting anything. They just want to put their own spin if they're not able to control the information.
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#397 | |
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#398 |
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“Brother Nee stressed two things: Christ as life to produce the church and the church as the Body of Christ to express Christ.” (W.L.) That is, until the resumption of his ministry in Shanghai when he began to use terms like “the minister of the age” for the first time.
http://www.twoturmoils.com/BobDanker...onoftheAge.pdf |
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#399 | |
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Now we move on to Acts 9:15. "This man is A chosen vessel". This again has nothing to do with "unique", "one-and-only", "in every age" absurdities. Our brother has a great imagination - that's about it. Our brother disqualifies the exact meaning of the verse. God has many chosen vessels in every age. The evidence is quite obvious. Even apart from the fact that we ourselves are called chosen vessels. I was listening to this weeks message on the CTM website. The brother who was speaking said something that startled me; "When we take our eyes off of Christ and put them only on the Church we become a cult". I use quotes but this is essentially what he stated. My dear blendeds you would do well to give heed to our simple brother's statement. He is a chosen vessel! |
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#400 | |
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THE MINISTRY THE MOTA GOD's ORACLE THE HIGH PEAK TRUTHS
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#401 |
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Can someone tell me about the history of LSM? If possible I would like to know when the original Stream Publishers became LSM.
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#402 | ||
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WL said we in the LC were an army, not a democracy - he'd have done well to look at the Continental Army that Washington commanded. People in Washington's army had opinions, and were allowed to voice them. After "much discussion", a la Acts 15:7, the generals of the army would reach consensus, and General Washington would pronounce his opinion of the consensus, and the army would move. Where was the "much discussion" in Witness Lee's Army? Where was mutuality, the "submit to one another"? No, it was 1) Know Who's Boss, and 2) Get in Line. Quote:
And if you begin to critically compare Recovery "church life experience" with scripture, it soon begins to reveal of what sort it is. LSM is practiced in the art of critique (see e.g. Affirmation and Critique, etc); they'd do well to be subject to the same.
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#403 | |
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I don't know how many times I heard young females blurt out emotionally in meeting that we should "love the church". Christ loved the church; so should we, right? Wrong. Christ loved the church and the church should love Christ. Instead the church gets seduced, and distracted: instead of loving Christ, the church loves the church and it all goes south in a hurry. The Bridegroom is left waiting at the altar, and the church is hurried off by an interloper, waving a fun-house mirror before her, telling her to eye herself and her garments. "How beautiful you are, my queen!" (See e.g. Rev 18:7's "I sit a queen!") And what is the Christ that comes out of this? A Christ that doesn't care about one's neighbor, or the poor, or the sick or weak or imprisoned, but wants to scour universities for "good building material". A Christ who is selective with scripture; it's no longer "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" but only those words which prop up a hermeneutic or teaching. A Christ that elevates fallen men. A Christ that judges everyone else as deficient. A Christ that doesn't care about "right and wrong", i.e. righteousness. I could go on, obviously. The Christ that is the "centrality and universality" of this church-fixated world is not the Jesus of Nazareth of Whom Moses and the prophets wrote, and to Whom Peter and Paul and James and John were discipled. It's not the Christ Whom the Father sent, but rather the Christ whom the self-obsessed church manufactures to justify herself.
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#404 | |
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I remember years ago a family counselor explained to me that unhealthy self-esteem can manifest itself either as depression or egotistical behavior. This surprised me at the time, since I was more familiar with the "down" side of unhealthy self-esteem, but equally unhealthy were those with a bully-nature, glory-possessed, and megalomanic personalities. One of the common complaints I have heard working with LC leaders is their obsession with having all the ideas. Since they are supposedly next in line to the throne of God, it must always be so. This goes two ways. Whether their idea is good or worthless, all must promote it unquestioningly, and continually sing its praises. But, should the idea of an underling be accepted, THE MAN will always steal it and make it his own, and like before, all must promote it unquestioningly, and continually sing its praises. That is why I have concluded that at the root of all the so-called "storms" or quarantines, or whatever language is used to spin them, is the fallen nature of talented egotistical men to eliminate potential rivals who might share their glory. Though not a church leader, apparently G. Dubya escaped these pitfalls, and the country was blessed for it. When James and John exhibited these traits among the early disciples, Jesus was able to nip it in the bud, and the church has been blessed for it. With all their great learning and abundant talents, ministers like Darby, Lee, and Chu have not learned these same lessons. In their early days, other gifted men surrounded the movements and flourished, but eventually one-by-one they were driven out as potential rivals due to their "independent" thinking, and those sycophants who remained also rose to preeminence in the program.
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#405 | |
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#406 |
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By all indications, the transition from The Stream Publishers to Living Stream Ministry more or less coincided with the Daystar collapse.
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#407 | |
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#408 | |
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Time wise, it was the mid-70's, about the same time W. Lee moved out of Los Angeles, hoping for a fresh start in Anaheim, Orange County.
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#409 | |
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#410 |
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But that is what puzzles me. These are new recruits. They are not familiar with their new environment and therefore not yet sold on the LSM bill of goods. If someone told me not to go on the internet because it is "negative", that would immediately raise red flags. Why should any group be afraid of the Internet unless they are hiding something. I would like to think that young college students have at least a little common sense.
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#411 | |
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EVANGLICAL FAITH TONGUES AND MIRICLES HAVE STOPPED ALL MUST SPEAK IN TONGUES BELIEVER's BAPTISM ONCE SAVE ALWAYS SAVED VERBAL INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE BAPTISM BY IMMERSION ONLY WALKING THE ISLE IN PROFESSION OF FAITH KJV ONLY MARY THE MOTHER OF CHRIST No thanks to satan the list is probably endless.
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#412 | |
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#413 | |
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#414 | |
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As to the term negative, it's all relative. Content LSM/LC want to hide isn't necessarily rumors and lies, but a history they aren't willing to own up to.
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#415 |
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The LSM dictionary defines anyone who disagrees with them an opposer. Synonyms include: negative, death, self... These young ones are conditioned to believe this and unfortunately, over time, loose the ability to discern for themselves. I think we can all testify to this. When we left and sadly even until now, many former members are leary to speak the truth concerning the LSM organization because these old tapes keep playing. It becomes difficult to tell the counterfeit from the reality. At least for some of us, we came in at a time when you were encouraged to experience Christ and bring your share to the meetings to edify others. You were free to read books by others, spend personal time with the Lord and could speak freely about these experiences in the meetings with a resounding Amen. But more importantly when we called on the Lord it was out of a pure heart; when we pray-read we were filled with the Holy Spirit. So when things began to shift from Spirit to Flesh, the true discernment coming from a healthy spirit and a purified intellect made us uncomfortable.
From watching some of the videos today, I do not see this. Young members are quickly subdued and indoctrinated. Stand on the chairs and call on the Lord three times to get things frenzied up a bit; Stand in line and hope the people in front of you don't say what you are going to say because there is only so much anyone can say when you all have to read the same thing. Of course you can always scream out the Lord's name until the bell goes off.... I have yet to see any positive fruit and genuine growth in Life produced by this method. It always looks so scripted. I keep looking though, hoping that something will change. May the Lord have mercy. Many of the LC saints do love the Lord and have a deep personal relationship with Him, even if they have to keep it a secret for fear of being labeled independent, spiritual, individualistic etc.. Yet more negatives out of the LSM playbook |
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#416 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Ironically, Lee's messages on "the Centrality and Universality of Christ" (many from the Collosians Training as I recall) were among the best he ever spoke. I still vividly recall one of those particular messages, now over 30 years ago. The vision of such a Christ was glorious and wonderful. Such teachings focused all our attention on our Lord Jesus, and any thought of "eyeing our own garment" seemed ridiculous. So how did the centrality and universality of Christ become the centrality and universality of the church? How did the biblical "CHRIST and the church" become "christ and THE CHURCH? How did the biblical "and God created man of the dust of the ground" become "Oh I'm a Man, I’m the center and the meaning of the universe"? No, it did not happen over night. Yet there were warnings to us from without and from within. After decades of these warnings we all found out. God will not be mocked. God will not share his glory with another, not even the Bride, no matter how lovely her garment.
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#417 | |||
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Then, groom the newbies with all the coded language. "There are terrible people out there, opposers who persecute the church which Christ purchased with His own blood. Hard to believe anyone could be negative against anything so wonderful as this." Quote:
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But they could be out playing Beer Pong, or huffing chemicals in the garage, so let them be. Maybe some of them will wake up, some day. You never know. God can do anything.
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#418 | |
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If the ground of oneness is truly Jesus Christ, drop the Living Stream publications. Drop bashing of Christians outside the LSM fellowship. Drop referring to Christian not meeting with LSM churches as meeting in denominations.
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#419 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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History of Witness Lee and the Local Churches Larry Chi On China Mainland Period The testimony of the local churches was initiated by Watchman Nee in China during the 1920’s. At that time he attracted many people from different Christian denominations to switch over to follow the Lord and seek truth and salvation with him. With the blessing of the Lord many young people also joined in. They devoted all their life for the testimony of the church as well as for the gospel. Brother Nee was really a faithful servant of the Lord. He dispensed much resource and money for the church work, not only money donated by many church members but also his own money. He also devoted all his life and his effort to work for the Lord. He has never collected any registration fees or tuitions from the members, nor has he tried to sell any books or handouts to the members. He taught them all he knew and he worked very hard for the church. He did not have much time to work for the Lord. For instance, he has taught the first class (training) for six months; he only started the second class for a period of time, but he has established a solid foundation for the testimony of the Lord. In 1939 there was a civil war in China and the mainland was taken over by the Communist government and brother Nee was arrested and put in jail because of his work for the church and finally he died after 20 years in confinement. Brother Nee had established a sound example for the followers and seeds he planted propagated and sprouted up in China as well as in many places all over the world. It is said there might be thirty to fifty million followers on the China mainland today of a work that began with Mr. Nee. The exact number nobody can tell. Only the Lord knows and in due time He will let us know how many there are. We can tell that the Lord carried out the local church work thru many many people who followed Him. It is not any particular individual who can claim all the credit. For those people who faithfully serve the Lord, all the members will be able to see that. If there is any impostor or corrupted members who did inferior work then their true colors will be exposed sooner or later. Section 2 The Full Period in Taiwan The first period from 1938-65 As early as 1938 and even before that, a small group of brothers already started to have fellowship in Taipei. Bro Liu Kiang Yung___ was the first to start to serve full time. At that time he was still single, but he became a full time coworker. Bro Nee once went to Taipei in 1938. It is hard to tell if bro Liu went to Taipei from __or not. Back in spring of 1938 there were about 20 some members who got together in Taipei. At that time they assembled in a Japanese-style house on Shanghai Road in Taipei. Because it was a Japanses-style house the house had tatami, so the church members had to take their shoes off and sit on the floor. Many church members who came from the China mainland were not accustomed to this style, so they felt a little uncomfortable at the beginning. Actually, that house was donated by brother Nee and was used for assembly as well as for a lodging facility for the coworkers and church members who went to Taiwan. After the middle of 1948 the political and military situation on the mainland of China changed rapidly. Many church members followed their schools, universities, government agencies, or the military to move over to Taiwan. As a result, many of these church members were spread out to all different parts of the island, to many different cities and towns. They went as far north as ____? Following th railroad. To the south of Gausheng? In September of the same year, ___and his family arrived to join the church assembly in Taipei. In November of the sam year ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___six brothers and their families went to Taipei from Shanghai on the same ship. Because of that the Taipei assembly increased rapidly to over 50 people. Also in 1948 ___went to Gaushen because of his job assignment? and teamed up with___?? married Dec 25 in Taipei. The church members took advantage of the new year holidays and they printed out many fliers, then went out into the busy streets to spread the gospel. They went to different sections of the city including the new part for the gospel and attracted many new members. In the spring of 1949, ____came to Taipei from the mainland and joined the congregation. At that time there were 150 people who had joined the congregation and the original Japanese house was not big enough for the congregation so often people had had to assemble in different places and in different assemblies. At that time, there were two members who were overseas Chinese from the Phiippines___ and bro ___. They went to buy a piece of propert, sect 2. A place to put a wooden struct that could accommodate 350 people. Afterwards that building was not big enough.and was rebuilt and expanded into a wooden structure that would accommodate 800 people. This is the current assembly hall number one located on Tien San Ban Liu. Nee and Lee Come to Visit Taipei At the beginning of 1949 brother Nee came to Taipei for the second time with the request of fellow members he has established five members___ ____ ____ _____ ____ to become the Taipei congregation elders. Three of these brothers worked for the church in Taipei on a full-time basis. In April of 1949 Mr. Lee and his family went to Taipei from China mainland. At that time he was very depressed. All the members of the congregation encouraged him from different directions and also coworkers took him to visit many members in the southern part of Taiwan. At that time there were congregations established in many cities around the north –south railroad, such as ___ ___ ____ ____ ___ _____. His visits to these places helped him to recover from his depression. He became fully charged and ready to go again. Not much later, the construction of the number one assembly hall was completed. After a discussion anong fellow members it was decided to call the first all-Taiwan special congregation in Taipei on August 1, 1949. There were over 300 members who participated in this gathering. Among them there were about 70 coming from the central and southern part of Taiwan . There were about 30-40 people from denominations attending. And about 200 members coming from greater Taipei area. All these members were there long before Mr. Lee arrived in Taiwan. There were also approximately 150-200 members who did not make it to the special gathering. At that time there were about 500 members across the different parts of Taiwan. This is the very first period of church establishment and growth in Taiwan. This rapid growth of church work and the spread of the gospel brought more and more people to join the congregation. The work load increased at the same time. The Lord called many young people to come join the church and to serve. Indeed there were many young people, some of them having just graduated from college, while some were still in college. These young people decided to drop whatever they were doing to come work for the Lord. Because there were a lot of new people coming into the church, there was the need to have a full-time training. At that time many church members decided to ask Mr. Lee to take responsibility for the training exercise. . At that time there were about 100 church members, including some young people leaders from various parts of Taiwan who joined the training class. The training was quite successful. All the people who participated in the training became Mr. Lee’s special disciples. Also, because of this experience Mr. Lee established absolute authority over the people who had come to the training. Since many of them were leaders at different assemblies in various cities and towns in Taiwan, he could call on them to carry out many programs and projects. Due to this kind of cohesiveness, there was a period of very good cooperation among church members. Although Taiwan is an island surrounded by ocean, it is a very open society, and the church members had the opportunity to communicate and have fellowship with other believers who were meeting in the denominations. And, many young people discovered that there are other groups who also work for the Lord. Their ideas were a little different from what they heard from their own church and leaders. So, many of them went to Mr. Lee and asked for a chance to have some fellowship and communication with other groups. With this repeated request, brother Lee agreed to invite brother Sparks from the UK to come to Taiwan to have a couple of special meetings. Through these special meetings, many church members in Taiwan learned many different teachings and different ideas and started to have questionings about Mr. Lee’s absolute authority. According to brother Lee, his greatest regret was to ask Mr. Sparks to come to Taiwan. Indeed, after Sparks’ visit, some of the coworkers started to have questions and started to split from the 100% followers of Mr. Lee. As the church work went thru rapid expansion, the financial need and supply also had a big change. In the beginning, the congregation had fewer members and many of them didn’t have high paying jobs, so the church finances were rather difficult. But the increase with church members plus the whole economy in Taiwan had a big improvement and people had much better, high-paying jobs so the contribution to the church increased quite a bit. Among the church members, it was a mostly informal and non-working procedure in handling financials. For instance, the full-time coworkers were told to handle themselves before the Lord according to their own conscience. Really there was nobody taking care of their living, but their assignment and place to work was assigned by chief coworkers. Whatever their assignment was, they had to accept, 100%. No arguments. And contributions from the donations coming in to the church for the work of the Lord was all collected under a special account and managed by the chief coworkers. After many years of operation this kind of formal arrangement created some difficulties. For instance, many of the coworkers had a life that was very spartan and close to difficult. But the chief coworkers, because they had the authority to use the church funds, made some expenditures that were questionable. Witness Lee Business Failures Disrupt the Church Around 1959 Mr. Lee had some investment failures and he lost a great deal of money. This brought the first financial crisis to the church. All the donations and contributions from the church members were used, and still the church owed people a large amount of money. Because of this situation, brother Lee forced the elders to sell a piece of land belonging to the church in order to pay the debt. That piece of land was located on 19 East Road, section 4, and had been bought by the church to build a training center and a new assembly building. Because of that many coworkers and church members were especially unhappy about this fiasco. Mr. Lee knew this was something that he did wrong and because of that he went to the United States and stayed on the west coast. After Mr. Lee left Taiwan, the church coworkers formed two sides. One side was Mr. Lee’s strong followers, while the other group had questions about some of Mr. Lee’s Lee’s activities. Those two groups had a strong difference of opinion, which greatly impacted the church activities and made much of the church work difficult to carry out. Finally, some of the coworkers who were Lee followers asked Mr. Lee to come back to Taiwan to resolve differences. In the summer of 1969. Lee came back to Taipei. He decided to get rid of those coworkers who disagreed with him. Consequently, there were 1000’s of people who left the congregation. At that time almost 30 % of the regular members left, a most serious situation was that about 80-90% of the young members who were college students left the church. This was a very bad example for the church in Taipei to have this type of cleansing massacre and also to establish factionism within the church. Moreover, there was clearly some tendency to promote individualism and worship of a certain idol. There was another incident that happened toward the end of the 1950’s that involved Hong Kong, the Philippines, Singapore, and Malaysia. Mr. Lee and some of the overseas coworkers developed some serious differences because the coworkers could not take Mr. Lee’s absolute authority. Everything was dictated by Mr. Lee, and he would not take any input from anybody. In addition some of the well-to-do church members were very unhappy about his handling of the financial matters. This was due to the fact that a lot of the money had been contributed by these church members, and Mr. Lee would handle the finances according to his own viewpoint. The overseas coworkers did not feel they could trust him anymore. Because of the differences they split up. Originally, the Philippines were very important for Mr. Lee because there were several well-to-do church members there who supported the church financially for a long time. So in 1960 the Manila church decided to sever relationships with Mr. Lee totally. When Mr.Lee left Taiwan to the U.S. in 1960, it was not really that he went there to open up new frontier. Rather, it was because of his own personal failure in Taiwan that he escaped to the U.S. As he left Taiwan, the church work in Taiwan was in serious disarray. Also the Philippines work was split off. This was the first period of our history. Second Period 1965-75 During the period that Mr. Lee left Taiwan beginning in 1960 till he came back to Taiwan in 1965 to carry out his cleansing exercise, the church work in Taiwan went through a very difficult time. Because of that, there was a lack of cooperation between the coworkers. However, ___ and ____were going to try their best to keep the church going. After the 1965 massacre ___ ____and ____ stayed with the church and tried their best to rebuild it. With the blessing of the Lord and the effort of the sweet brothers’ leadership, over a two or three year period the church membership grew a lot. One summer in the Taipei area a camp was held and about a thousand young people came together. There were many children who came to join various activities at the camp as well. The church in different localities in Taiwan went through a rapid recovery period. Therefore, Mr. Lee set up a special international gathering in Taipei in 1968 and invited people from all over the Taiwan area to come to attend, as well as about 160 members from the U.S. and Canada, and another 100 or so from various Southeast Asia regions, Japan, and Europe. The attendees at the gathering were very impressed to see how the members in Taiwan worked together to establish this beautiful picture and to increase the church membership, so they learned the practice carried out in Taiwan and went back to their own area and became the leaders and the backbone of their church in their own areas. In the period of the late 60’s and early 70’s there was a period of recovery and growth of the church in Taipei. We can take a look at the reasons why there was such a successful growth. 1)At that time the leaders of the church work ___ ____ and ____ were not the strong leader type. In other words, they did not dictate. They worked together. They were not selfish. They did not have the desire to hold power in their hands. So under their leadership the coworkers worked together very smoothly and respected each other so that the work could be carried out. 2) there was an atmosphere of freedom within the church. Everyone had the right to speak out. They could ask questions and express their feelings. The elders and coworkers sometimes led the members to express themselves. So the fellowship among the members was open and very much a free-flow. There was no central authority figure to dictate anything. Neither was there anyone who was there to give the one and only teaching to all the members. Consequently, during the assembly there was a lot of fresh air blowing through the church. 3) The coworkers had the freedom to follow their interests and their strength. If someone was good at the gospel, then he would pursue in that area; if someone was good at working with the children, then he would be given opportunity to do that kind of work. If someone was good at taking care of the sick then he will be assigned to a hospital to work with sick people. Due to these factors, all the church members and coworkers had the chance to fulfill their interest and to do their best in the area where they have their strengths. People were more than happy to do their work, since they were not following orders from any dictators. They enjoyed having the chance serve the Lord. 4) All the churches in Taiwan started to push the family fellowship and leaders asked the church members to do whatever they could do to promote it. In the Taipei church ___ ___ ___ were the ones who were the strongest promoters of this exercise. In 1975 the Taipei church had 22 congregations, 77 assemblies, and over 200 family fellowship groups with over 1000 members. The family fellowship members carried out many fundamental gospel works. They had to have some basic training as a help to take care of the children, to teach them the hymns, and to encourage them to read their Bibles. There were many such activities among family members. At that time I was just married and my residence was within #17 assembly under #3 congregation. I was not a leader nor did I have any responsibility for the assembly fellowship. The brothers did invite me to participate in some of the trainings. There was no tuition to be paid and there was no need to buy any materials or handouts. All the people who participated were on a volunteer basis. People participated not because of any personal gain – they were not for money or fame. They were just there to serve the church, to serve the Lord. Everybody worked together just like a big happy family. 5) The remaining coworkers within the church tried very hard to rebuild the youth and children congregation because in 1965 we were massacred. The most damaged part of the church was the college and youth branch. Coworkers that were driven away included the youth leaders. There was a big loss to the church. In Taipei,___ and Tainan the youth work almost became a vacuum. Some of the people who served in small villages and in small towns were asked to go to Taipei, Tainan, and ___ to rebuild. Supposedly, they were very effective. Within a very short period of time they achieved something really amazing. For instance, in 1965 __ was assigned from __ to ___. When he first went over there with ___ and ___ they were looked at by some of the local young members as the running dogs after Mr. Lee. They were throwing eggs and tomatoes on them and yelling and screaming at them. The original youth leader ___was gone. But after ___ loving and patience and care, explaining what they were going to do, just like a miracle within a year members within __University built up from almost nothing to about 150, and the youth congregation in ____reached a new high Afterwards, br___ was assigned back to #3 assembly in Taipei and ___ was assigned to ___ to continue the task. In another case, in the city of___there was a collection of colleges and universities in central part of Taiwan. ___worked in ___ for many years and he had a good following from the youth and college students in ___ but bec he left the church a lot of college students all disappeared with him. At that time ___ was assigned to __from ___ He was responsible for the church work in central Taiwan. ___ was responsible to serve the colleges and universities there. Both of them worked hard day and night with tender loving care and they rebuilt the ___church congregation. In the 1965 massacre the third congregation under the Taipei church suffered very severe damage. There are two reasons for this. 1) one of the persons who was fired,___, was well-respected by all the church members young and old. His knowledge and his work ethic were very much appreciated. The saints were very angry to see what was meted out to him. So, many followed him to leave the church. 2) In the meantime there was a cult movement going on in Taipei that was promoted by a person named ___. It was very popular. Some of the church members who were very anxious to follow the gospel but did not have a good understanding of the truth were fooled by this cult movement and left the church to join that crowd. At that time,__was the only senior member who helped out in the hall 3 congregation. After he worked for a period of time and made very little progress he asked for help. He invited __ and ___. to come from Tainan to Taipei to help him work at meeting hall #3. With the three of them working together, hall 3 started to recover. Within a couple of years they made big progress. During the international special gathering in 1968, the Sunday morning gathering at hall 3 usually had more than 400 people attending. It was so full they had to add seats to the hallway. The youth fellowship usually had to be held in three separate locations - at assemblies 18, 19, and at meeting hall #3. Usually more than 350 people attended. Among them there were about 40-50 high school students, 150 junior high students and another 600-700 children gathered to have meetings in ten different locations. Brother fellowship and sister fellowship in Taiwan Normal University and National Taiwan University were established in 1967, as well. ___ ____ ____ ___ and many other brothers all came to join the church during this period of time. The three examples of congregations that were mentioned above in Tainan, Taichung, and Taipei were only examples of the rebuilding of the churches that took place. The rebuilding was a very broad movement It not only covered the colleges and universities, it was everywhere. Many students who lived on campus, and the teachers, the faculty, all joined in for the movement. The rebuilding not only existed on campus, but also in society in general. All participated in this effort. The coworkers provided proper training and guidance to the young people and showed them how to work with high school students and junior high children. The whole church environment was just like a big happy family. The older people took care of the young people and there was love and care for each other with no generation gap whatsoever. The older ones really loved the younger ones and the younger ones all respected the elders. There was nobody looking down on the younger people. And the younger people did not look at the older people as outdated or stubborn. All the people were working within the church. There was no concept of position or ranking. There was nobody playing tricks on anybody. So the church was really the witness of the kingdom of God. Everybody got a chance to fulfill or receive what he was looking for. Everyone had the blessing from the Lord. Simply put, during that time the coworkers working at Hall 3 in Taipei were___and his wife and ___. In addition, there was ___ ____ ____ ________ __. They all contributed heavily to the rebuilding and expansion of the #3 congregation. In addition to these coworkers, there were many, many other church members who all loved the Lord and the church and they all contributed their fair share of the work. There was no way we could give all the credit for the rebuilding and expansion to any one or two 8 brothers, or to any other church member. That is just not fair. Here we are only talking about one congregation. In looking at all the churches all over Taiwan, their expansion and growth could not be attributed to any individual. We could only give this glory to the Lord. This is his work, which has been accomplished under His blessing. In the early 1960’s up to 1965 many churches in Southeast Asia drifted away from Taiwan, but after 1968 we started to re-connect with some of the churches in Taiwan to re-establish the fellowship. Many of them sent letters to Taiwan to ask some of the coworkers to go there to help them. Because of this, ___ ____ often went to Japan, Korea, and ___ later on became stationed in Japan on a long-term basis. He is still there as of today. ___ was sent to Malaysia and ___was sent to Indonesia and afterwards ___ __ went to Manila, and ____went to Thailand, and in addition there were other full-time coworkers or church members in various parts of Southeast Asia who came to Taiwan to join some of the church congregations to work as interns. They include ___ ___ from Indonesia and ___from the Philippines. Glorious Atmosphere Did Not Last Long Unfortunately the glorious atmosphere did not last very long. There was a big change in 1970. In the summer of 1970 there was a special international gathering in Los Angeles. There were about 100 members who came to join the gathering from the Far East, with about two-thirds of them coming from Taiwan. Most of them were the leading coworkers from various churches in Taiwan. In that special gathering, Mr. Lee used strong derogatory language to insult and degrade coworkers from Taiwan. He called them outdated and said all the churches from the Far East were outdated. There were two reasons for him to do so. 1) He wanted to use the free spirit and animated style of the American church members to shake up the members from the east. He wanted the Far East members to believe that the yelling, screaming and jumping up and down by the American church members was an expression that showed that the Holy Spirit had entered into them. He forced the Far East members to accept that they were outdated and that they ought to be ashamed. He wanted to re-establish his absolute authority and power over them. 2) He understood that the church members from the East were passive and submissive. If he could show the church members of the West that he could overpower the well-trained senior church members from the East he could establish his power and authority over the church members in the West also. What Lee did in his special gathering created two serious consequences. 1) After this special international gathering, the church members went back to Taiwan and tried very hard to transplant what they saw in the U. S. into Taiwan and thus created much conflict and confusion for quite a while. Many traditional church members in Taiwan could not stand the yelling and screaming in the meetings and started to drift away. Many neighbors next to the church could not stand the noise either and were thus violated. This destroyed the good image the church had established with the general public over the years. There were many arguments and conflicts with the outside community. As a result of all the conflict and confusion, there was a great negative impact on the church work. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#420 | |
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Then, interestingly, when Lee flopped it was the church's problem, not his! Lee's business failure brought financial crisis to the church, not to Lee. Nice gig if you can get it. If you win, you win, and if you lose, Bailout Central steps in and covers the loss. So why not gamble? That was the bait dangling in front of Witness Lee and he took it.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#421 | |
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#422 |
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It's also nice to have a church in your pocket. Likewise, if you get caught with your hand in a vise, the church deems you Too Big To Fail and comes to your financial rescue. Certainly this was the case with Lee & Fam, on numerous occasions. If anyone loses his money, bad for him. If Lee loses money, bad for the church.
And the real rub is that the ones who knew what Lee did, back in Taipei, sat by quietly when he drummed up the USA saints for $$ for Daystar. They knew exactly what was going on and they said nothing. What a shame.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#423 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Too bad the Internet wasn't around back in the 1960s/70s for this Larry Chi to inform us gullible Americans about the things Witness Lee had already pulled back in the Far East. Of course it would have taken tremendous courage to blow the whistle on Lee at that point, for he had already obtained near-idol status among the earliest brothers meeting in LA. Of course there was the language barrier, but there were plenty of English speaking brothers in Taiwan who could of translated for him. I would love to get a hold of the entire book that he supposedly wrote. There is at least one forum member who could translate it for us. Maybe Indiana could find out how we could obtain a copy. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#424 | |
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Any info on who this Larry Chi was? How about a "fill-in-the-blank" version with names inserted. At least Anderson's ToG had fictitious names consistent throughout.
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#425 | ||
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Two posts by Indiana way back in 2009. I don't remember these or the Larry Chi letter. I must of been out sick that day!
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#426 |
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Sounds as if he was an elder in the Church in Taipei. Perhaps until the 1980's.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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I'm sure there is and likely to expose LSM more as a family business than as a non-profit business.
I had heard for years what happened in North America was just the tip of the iceberg and much more happened in Taiwan, Southeast Asia, and China.
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#428 | |
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Yes, I referenced the 2008 financial scandal of Wall Street deliberately.
The question for me, which can be arguably traced back to Genesis Chapter 6 is, "Who watches the Watchers?" Or, who judges the judge, when that person judges wrongly? The USA political system was set up with "checks and balances", because it was known that men, even leaders, were fallible creatures. The Judicial System watches the Legislators, the Legislators appoint the Judiciary, the people vote for the Legislators etc. In spiritual, Christian affairs, Jesus allowed for checks and balances: i.e. "tell it to the church"; as did Paul's "receiving accusations against elders". There should be covering of the inadequacy and frailty of human psyche and flesh; nonetheless there isn't and shouldn't be covering for evil. Darkness should be uprooted, exposed and expelled. The light shines and the darkness cannot overcome it. The church and its citizens should be holy, just as our God is holy. Quote:
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#429 | |
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#430 | |
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Well, not entirely. Technically, the judiciary cannot do anything that is not carried out by the administration. But no one has the gumption to test that. Therefore there is no check against the judiciary once it is in place. Only death changes things. Now do not suppose that I think there is any very useful method of achieving that bit of balance. Simply refusing to execute the court's order is potentially whimsical. Alternately, Congress could step in and declare that aspects of a ruling are beyond the jurisdiction of the court. But what stops that from becoming another political whimsy? In short, there is no simply answer. The checks and balances ultimately have a stopping point unless one or two branches are willing to tell the third to take a hike. The President can veto. Congress can override a veto. Laws can be redrafted to fit within the parameters the court allows, but no one dares tell them that the vote of the people, through their representatives, overrides them. I think the court would declare that the people would have to declare a constitutional convention to override them. Effectively a veto-proof system for them. I think there is a problem. But I've not seen a workable solution.
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#431 |
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Attached is a short one page article I found. I don't know if it's been posted already.
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#432 |
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Apparently the Taipei history Indiana went to the expense to have translated, someone took the translated content and had translated into Japanese:
http://www.geocities.jp/lee_localchu...taipei60s.html
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#433 |
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http://www.twoturmoils.com/TheMinist...nceptToday.pdf
The vision Brother Lee started with was not the same as he introduced later in making dramatic changes similar to what Nee had done in China. At this point in each of their ministries their designation as a minister of the age was about to appear. Tremendous reinforcement of this view of Nee and Lee came by their own church messages, special elders’ trainings, and by key people who supported them. Their measure of authority was strengthened and broadened greatly over the churches and the elders. Ready submission among the elders to the apostle figure was expected, in order to reach his goals. Thus, the churches were in their hand and they were fixed on their apostle and his leading, dependent on him for their direction to a large extent. The minister of the age concept did not exist until Nee introduced it, and, when the time was ripe, Lee resurrected it and ministered it to the churches, especially implanting it into the minds of attendees of intensified training meetings, regional and international. |
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#434 | ||
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When Witness Lee passed, the brothers loyal to him said, "The age of spiritual giants is over." Thus thyey declared that Lee was, indeed, one of these giants that damage the Body life. By their own words they indicted themselves, that they had created a monstrous "giant".
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#435 | ||
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Anyone who is called a spiritual giant, on this side of the Judgment Seat of Christ, is being delusional.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#436 |
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I honestly believe that there are spiritual giants. But that is not about great teaching. Or great skills at preaching. Or even evangelism. It is about great commitment to Christ and his people.
They are our servants, not our leaders in the way of the Pharisees. But the day of "spiritual" giants in the manner of Lee is also not over. They proliferate. They promote themselves. They even call on the name of the Lord. And one day they will call his name once again and learn that they were never authorized for such status.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#437 | |
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I remember hearing a LCer wistfully say how all the outsiders coming to a Christians on Campus Bible study knew more of the Bible than they did. The average LCer might think that they know the Bible better than any other Christians. That knowledge, however, is mostly limited to all the key LC verse and passages that are frequently referenced. What this all leads to is that anyone who has ventured outside the standard LC repertoire of material and cookie cutter fake spirituality is going to stand out noticeably. In an environment that desperately needs "normal Christians", such people could actually be a benefit to LCers. Thus, these people are threats to LC leaders. I personally have seen people come through the LC who would put most LC elders to shame in terms of what they know about the Bible. In the LC they can't have anyone interrupting the authority structure and it is conveniently to label such people as argumentative, independent, "not clear about God's economy", or whatever else is convenient. It's really all the same. Calling someone a spiritual giant is just another LC method to discredit someone, and the LC has many, many methods for doing so.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#438 | |
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#439 | |
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“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ Matthew 25:22-25 LC/LSM culture is just like in verse 25. There's so much rhetoric against multi-talented members, the message that's been promoted is we should all be the same one talented members. Even members who may be two talented members will be viewed as having the wrong concepts, individualistic, ambitious ,and as Freedom has said...whatever else is convenient. Two lessons for sure a LSM-LCer may learn from a non-LSM Christian is love and grace.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#440 | |
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But I used it in the way the OT uses it, pejoratively. The giants (Gk: grigori) were the unholy offspring of disobedient "sons of God" and the daughters of men. "There were giants on the earth in those days..." Gen 6:4. And I think the Blendeds invited that application in characterizing one of their own as a giant. I remember distinctly hearing in 1997, that "The age of spiritual giants is over; it is the age of small potatos now", which directly implied that the recently deceased Witness Lee was the last of the spiritual giants. In the NT there are characterizations of multitalented (5- or 10-talents, for example) servants, who are especially useful in the Master's hand. But "giants" in Biblical usage are those who raise themselves up against the Most High God. I'm surprised Lee and Company talked themselves into thinking this term could be applied positively, in the way they used it. That's why I said that they indicted themselves with their own words.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#441 | |
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As I started to become concerned about the LC, there was an interesting phenomena that I noticed. The elders would regularly criticize the rank and file for failing to take initiative in an activity, to attend a conference/training or even something like preach the gospel. They usually call this being "lukewarm". At the same time, the minute anyone took any amount of initiative, they quickly got "corrected". It's no wonder that so many of the rank and file choose to live in the shadows, waiting until they are called upon to do anything at all. The elders know this and are frustrated by this, but at the same time they also know that they can't encourage anyone to take initiative. It's just one of those things that I'm sure drives members crazy and they probably can't ever put their finger on what the real problem is.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#442 | |
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And in that sense, you make a point by a little equivocation. But unlike some equivocation, this one may actually be relevant since the only kind of giants that act in the manner of Lee and many other somewhat megalomaniacs are the ones that were unholy offspring. So maybe it is they who misused the word to imply something that was not what was true.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#443 | |
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As I emphasized from Aron's post, "In spiritual, Christian affairs, Jesus allowed for checks and balances: i.e. "tell it to the church"; as did Paul's "receiving accusations against elders"." The system LSM/LC operate in have negated all checks and balances in favor of the deputy authority doctrine. As much as they claim in their self-proclaimed theocracy that they are God's government, all I see is a cesspool of unrighteousness, deception, and misdirection. Far from being God's government.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#444 | |
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#445 | |
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The reality of the situation is that outside the LC, few people are truly content with sitting around and wasting away, setting aside all their usefulness, goals, etc. I believe that this is one of the things that really has make the LC unappealing on a broad scale. People don't want to be dumbed down to parroting a dead man's words. Of course LC members are willing to do this, but they really a minority. As long as there is this kind of mindset in the LC, it can never amount to anything. When the LC started, all kinds of people came in. Members then took initiative to invite friends and tell people about the LC. If someone were to do the same thing today, it's as Terry says, they might be labeled as being independent, seeking a following, or I have even heard implications that people who are successful in the gospel can become too "proud".
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#446 | |
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#447 |
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As critical as I am of Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama, my criticism for the blended brothers (collectively) surpasses. It isn't about doctrines or orthodoxy, but normal Christian behavior.
1. They are brothers in Christ 2. How could they be supportive of an unrighteous, unethical, and immoral man like Philip Lee AND 3. Smear brothers who are under the headship of Christ? 4. Their speaking and their subsequent actions are very subversive. Creating and causing problems when there is no need for it.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#448 | |
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When they play politics, they are all the same.
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#449 |
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“As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian….” (The Normal Christian Church Life, pp138-139, Nee).
Ministry Churches (revised) www.twoturmoils.com/ministrychurches.pdf Excerpt Deep into the movement for his ministry, Brother Lee spoke a consummating word concerning the producing of the Body, in a banner high peak book, Living the Life of a God-Man According to the High Peak of the Divine Revelation (1994): “Since we have seen such a high peak of the divine revelation, we need to put into practice what we have seen. Our practice will have a success, and that success will be a new revival—the highest revival, and probably the last revival before the Lord’s coming back….” Controversial High Peak Teaching This statement was made on the pathway Brother Lee had begun in 1974 and led eventually to the controversial “high peak of the vision given to us by God”. He stated “that it is only by God’s becoming man to make man God that the Body of Christ can be produced.” (The High Peak of the Vision and the Reality of the Body, 1994) Remarkable Buildup of a Minister of the Age This buildup of a minister of the age from 1974 to 1994 was remarkable, and so was its path of deviation and the problems brought into the church life in the Lord’s recovery.“The greater our gift is, the greater is the danger that we will take over the church and keep it in our hands. This will greatly damage the church life. (The Vision of God’s Building, W. L., 1964) Although this is exactly what took place, responsibility was denied and books of evil speaking arose published by LSM. “The late eighties turmoil rose up mainly to put me down”, says Brother Lee. “Certain ones decided not only to put me down, but also to put me out. They did much in this turmoil, but I did not do anything.” (The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Churches, pp34-35, 1993, W.L.) This quote is from one of those evil books displacing blame. The leadership has not recognized the damage they have caused and that they themselves are the source of the problems that came into the church life. Accordingly, our brothers in Christ in their movement exhibit no compunction for their litany of sins and offenses. They also seem to consider that running roughshod over people and churches is part of God’s move on the earth, but John So and brothers with him in Europe did not think so. http://www.unfaithfulwitness.org/Eur...Depart1989.pdf Neither do the concerned brothers in the Great Lakes region. www.concernedbrothers.com Perhaps the only way a revival might come is by the blending co-workers fulfilling the pre-requisite to have a deep and comprehensive repentance. But they claim instead, “All the local churches are the one unique Body of Christ in the universe (Eph. 4:4). Every local church is a part of this universal Body, a local expression of this unique Body….” (Practicality of the Body, p17, DCP, 2007) “As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian….” (The Normal Christian Church Life, pp138-139, Nee). Ministry Churches (revised)
www.twoturmoils.com/ministrychurches.pdf |
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#450 | ||
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There is a statement made by Lee found in Indiana’s post, which I think provides some insight into why the local churches slowly but surely became “ministry churches.” Along with re-posting that quote, I want to also provide a strikingly similar statement made by Nee:
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From an objective standpoint, it seems like the common denominator in all of this is the notion of recovery. While I believe the notion of recovery to be highly erroneous, that’s a different discussion. The point I want to make here is that because all LC members believe that they are part of a recovery, and because this recovery is believed to be ongoing and characterized exclusively by teachings from Nee/Lee, LC members have been inadvertently placed in the position where they feel obligated to receive “the ministry.” The fact that WL was exclusively speaking everything that was deemed to have been "recovered," created an inherent conflict of interest, and there was no such thing as objectivity. Things got to the point where any of Lee’s actions could and would be rationalized by members. The dependency on Lee as the one who was "fueling" the supposed recovery is what produced “ministry churches” over time. Unless people were severely disillusioned with Lee, there was really no way to escape that. The reason that I say that, is because if a member were to question basic things like the promotion of LSM material or control over the churches, it would quickly become apparent that to draw the line with LSM is not enough. A disillusionment should really lead to other questions, especially the more difficult ones.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#451 | |
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I call it as I see it and that's ministry churches. When you as a church restrict your fellowship to a specific ministry, you are not a local church, but a ministry church.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#452 |
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WITNESS LEE: Both the ministry and many churches in the recovery made a decision to quarantine certain divisive ones. Some did not accept this decision and have even joined these divisive ones. They have disregarded the feeling of the Body. How we behave ourselves depends upon the degree of our seeing of the Body.” (The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life)
The members of the Body have to first recognize the Head – it is not Brother Lee. He was the head of a movement to bring all the churches under his ministry, which effectively displaced Christ, our Lord of glory, as the Head of His Body. Ministry Churches, p. 9 http://www.twoturmoils.com/MinistryC...dyofChrist.pdf www.twoturmoils.com/ministrychurches.pdf |
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#453 |
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This was a little report sent today to a few friends, all members of the household of God.
Dear brother Tony, and brothers and sisters, I think it is good to note that Jesus is surely Lord and lives in us, and in me. I have been doing well in the will of God, with a profound sense of peace in what I do - speak the truth. I am certainly not in the business of deceiving anyone, but quite the opposite. So anointing within me continues as does the Lord's smile, and mine. I have no opposition to righteous behavior, only to unrighteous and that without "bitterness" or "vendetta" toward anyone, as those who know me understand. Over the last 15 years my heart has only been enlarged in appealing to leaders, and to others, for reconciliation among members in the Body. And, I believe all of our hearts ought to be enlarged, that we might receive all who God receives. Tony, we ought to know our church history! and become accountable. www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf |
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#454 | |
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I'm not sure why anyone would continue to beg for fellowship from those who are not interested and furthermore have told lies about them? |
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#455 | |
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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#456 | |
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HERn
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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#457 | |
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I find it more than a little ironic that Indiana finds much of his inspiration for action in the words of WL himself.
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#458 | |
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#459 |
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“If we introduce these manmade distinctions into the church, the relationship among the brothers and sisters will be shifted to the wrong ground.” (W. Nee, New Believers Series)
www.twoturmoils.com/ShiftingtotheWrongGround.pdf |
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#460 | |
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#461 | |
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Their high appreciation of Witness Lee and his ministry caused leaders to uplift him and eventually crown him as “the minister of the age” with the “ministry of the age” in ministry churches claimed to be the recovery of the New Testament church. These are their distinctions and their ground. They do have their oneness, as ministry churches, and receive people accordingly. “If we introduce these manmade distinctions into the church, the relationship among the brothers and sisters will be shifted to the wrong ground.” (W. Nee, New Believers Series) Addressing Division 2001 www.twoturmoils.com/IntheWakeoftheNewWay.pdf 2007 http://makingstraightthewayofthelord...dsRecovery.pdf 2015 www.twoturmoils.com/ministrychurches.pdf We are called to be one. This is why I address division. |
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#462 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Ironically, Watchman Nee introduced a manmade distinction into the Church in pressing his "ground of the Church" dogma. Unwittingly (or maybe not), Nee shifted the relationship among the brothers and sisters from one unbiblical ground (Denominationalism) to another unbiblical ground (Sectarian oneness) Both of these "grounds" have great potential to short circuit the God-given, biblical dynamic of leadership and direction within the Church being organically recognized or approved. In hindsight, it is obvious that Witness Lee took Watchman Nee's mistakes and magnified them 100 fold. It wasn't very long before the local churches in Taiwan became The Local Church of Witness Lee with numerous branches on the Island. The same thing repeated itself in North America - the Church in Los Angeles quickly turned into The Local Church of Witness Lee with numerous branches. The denominations had their branch churches in any given locality, and the Local Church had their branch churches in any given locality. So who is approved, who is deemed genuine, who is closest to the God-given, biblical representation of the Body of Christ in any given locality? Well, we have about 2,000 years of Church history to help decide this for us. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#463 |
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What is the difference between Denominationalism and Sectarian oneness? It would seem that if the LC shifted to the wrong ground, then it must have been on the proper ground at an earlier time. Apparently this same shift also occurred much earlier in Taiwan. This suggests that this shifting might have been deliberately planned?
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#464 |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Good question Renee. I don't have an easy answer for you.
What I will say is that both denominationalism and sectarian oneness add something to the Gospel. It is the Gospel PLUS other non-essentials. In the case of the Local Church, they have added many things, and most of these are related to the person and work of Witness Lee. The true, biblical Gospel is nothing more, and nothing less, then the Person and work of Jesus Christ. In the Local Church they claim to have a "higher gospel", which is nothing more than the particular teachings and practices established by Witness Lee. If you ask most Christians "what is the one publication", most would probably say "the Bible of course!" If you ask the members of the Local Church, most would probably say "the Bible PLUS 'The Ministry'". Some might even say only "The Ministry". The Blended brothers have proclaimed that the Local Churches will only accept and follow "The One Publication". So the "oneness" of the Local Church is now based officially on the teachings and practices established by Witness Lee. So they have a oneness of sorts, but it is a kind of sectarian oneness. They claim to be "one with everyone in the Body of Christ", but they will only accept you if you follow the person (authority) and work (ministry) of Witness Lee. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#465 | |
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What happens to Christians when the demands for oneness in their movement (or denomination) exceed the demands for righteousness? What happens when their leaders are no longer accountable because distorted oneness demands silence from all the members? What happens when the voice of God via the prophets He faithfully sends is squashed by an all-powerful leader who is considered either "the vicar of Christ," or "the oracle of God," or "the minister of the age," or some other nonsense. Acts 20.30 has served to seriously release me from the grip of LSM. Notice how Apostle Paul warns them that leaders from within the church will rise up speaking perverted things to draw away the disciples after themselves. Distorted oneness, with its excessive demands, is perverted. Talking about a so-called "Minister of the Age" is perverted. Elders in LC's around the globe brought under the subjection of a publishing house in Anaheim, CA is perverted. Their "one publication policy" is perverted. I could go on and on here. The goal of all these perverted teachings is to draw away the disciples from their Lord and Savior to become followers of men, who now hide behind the mask of being "Blended."
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#466 |
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UntoHim & Ohio,
Thank you for the clarification on oneness and how it can lead to division. The oneness is in spirit, oneness in spirit. Yet it is often taught as oneness in the flesh -- I just cringe when large gatherings require everyone to say the same thing at the same time. It is for sure God did not create us so that we could become a group of identical robots according to some man's manipulative demands. |
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#467 | |
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A former elder in Dallas wrote about local church history and finished two chapters before being visited by three brothers he knew from their early days in Texas together, and who were now in accord with the blending brothers. The three brothers felt welcomed to visit, due to the warmth in Don's sharing on matters and people they all knew in the church life; and they were also compelled to visit based on major concerns they had about his transparency regarding the seeds of development in the churches to follow the lead of a man and a ministry. Don indicated that they had a cordial time together and he was able to share with them about why he left the church life. He spent several hours with them, and heard also what their concerns were about him and his writings on a public internet forum. We don't know whether or not that visitation effected his course, but, he did not write another chapter - and he did have more that he had planned, and desired, to add. But the two chapters he did provide are insightful to those who seek to understand true local church history. www.twoturmoils.com/DonRutledgeHistory.pdf |
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#468 |
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www.lordsrecovery.us/SeattleLetter2016B.pdf
Letter excerpt from Bellevue brother: In Brother Lee's book "the experience of life" he talks about being right with God and with the body. The main factor is the matter of the proper dealing. THE SCOPE OF THE OFFENCE DETERMINES THE SCOPE OF THE DEALING. If one commits a sin only in the mind, it can be cleared up very easily. All the person has to do is confess to the Lord and claim the Lord's blood and he is forgiven. If one sins in speaking a word that he shouldn't have to a member of the body, then he has to not only confess to the Lord but also ask forgiveness from the person he spoke the word to. If one sins against the church, then he has to confess to the Lord and ask forgiveness publicly from the church. If one sins against the recovery, he has to confess to the Lord and also ask forgiveness from the entire recovery. You have most certainly sinned against the entire recovery. The website of your "book" and also the website of your "fellowship" with those such as Don Harding and others is now a VERY BIG PROBLEM FOR YOU. Your thought about the recovery being wrong is your major problem. Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's. Brother Lee is a different person than Phillip Lee. Brother Lee would never do things that others would do. What I said in my previous letter is what has to be done. As long as you think that you are right about what you did but that the problem is that the brothers from the local churches are not open, this is a proof that you have no light on this matter. And until you get light, you have no way with the Lord. Without light, you will never be able to come back to the Lord's recovery. Because you just don't know how to handle this situation. You are completely in the dark. Repentance is a mercy that is granted to us only by the Lord. But repentance only comes when one realizes that he is altogether WRONG. www.lordsrecovery.us/SeattleLetter2016B.pdf 2001 Letter on past page- p3 |
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#469 | |
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#470 | |
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#471 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,663
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Benson is now President of LSM.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#472 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
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The problem former members run into is continuing to think these people, this group, this movement, still have some spiritual authority or special standing over them. I could say they don't, and I believe that, but each person has to come to that conclusion for his or her own self. At some point you just have to say, "Sorry, I disagree," and move on. If I was living in Seattle or Bellevue, I would simply ignore these guys. I would write them off, as it says in Matthew 18, and regard them as heathens. They don't have anything I need or anything I can't get anywhere else. They cannot restrict my access to Christ, nor suspend my enjoyment of the Church, the Kingdom, or any other blessing promised by God. And their implication that they can, their use of hubris, fear and intimidation to control others, is the pure work of Satan. I wouldn't hate them, but I do pity them. Now if you are concerned for those they are still deceiving, or those they might deceive, those saints you love and want to see set free, that's one thing. That's why I post here. But one need never seek the approval or acceptance of these darkened leaders. Life's too short, and it's a mistake to think they hold the keys to anything you need. |
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#473 | |
Member
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I just sent this revised Seattle letter this morning. "Dear brother Martin, (and Jim Bundy) _ I knew you both, Your names are on a letter addressed to me that indicated an undefined problem that several men of God had with me. Is there really a problem, brothers?" www.lordsrecovery.us/SeattleLetter2016B.pdf |
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#474 | |
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Over the years so much faith is put into Witness Lee that the brother said in absoluteness "Brother Lee would never do things that others would do. " Because faith in man leads others astray. That's how I feel has happened to the brother who wrote the email to Indiana. Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation. Psalms 146:3 Stop regarding man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he? Isaiah 2:22 It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man. Psalms 118:8
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#475 |
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These were my thoughts exactly. The letter implies that Steve is too sure of himself. But that's exactly what this Bellevue elder is guilty of, not Steve. With respect to how LCers view Lee, there is only one view that they hold, that being "even when he's wrong, he's right."
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#476 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
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And Local Churchers wonder why people call them a personality cult. Most other legitimate Christian leaders would have been publicly exposed, sued by the victims and removed from public ministry for an extended period of time. But of course this would of required the leadership of the Local Church to be transparent and accountable, like what is clearly taught in the New Testament. Instead everyone, from top to bottom, was/is only accountable to the person and work of Witness Lee. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#477 | |
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This is what I believe has happened to many a local church elder. They have been deceived and in turn lead many a local church into deception. Not once has there been any indication there's another possibility to consider. Completely closed. To consider anything different than the reality LSM presents would indicate brothers who are not quite "absolute for the ministry" as claiming to be.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#478 | |
Member
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#479 | |
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Jesus Christ alone can be thoroughly examined, and His words will be true every time. Jesus Christ alone can be exhaustively judged, and He will prevail as righteous every time. Witness Lee, however, was found to be a liar during the entire scandalous affair which resulted in his slanderous account, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, LSM 1990.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#480 | |
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"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here. I hope that you brothers who have come to attend this conference will not mention it anymore. It does not deserve any more mentioning." Lies passed off to stand as fact.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#481 | |
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“One basic item of the change in nature in the Lord’s recovery is that it appears the Lord’s work has become Brother Lee’s work; the churches have become Brother Lee’s churches; and the Lord’s workers have become Brother Lee’s workers” “We are at a critical juncture. We cannot be silent regarding the change of nature in the Lord’s recovery. We should have no part in it. This is a day for further recovery. We need a new beginning to recover us back from the change of nature to the Lord’s original intention. We must discard all the changes of nature and come out of the system; it cannot change.” (Two Senior Coworkers from Taiwan 1988) |
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#482 |
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From "Appealing to Ron Kangas" from his talk in Ecuador (link provided by Indiana)
"So some may decide that this person is right. Others will say that person is wrong. That will lead to argument, dissension, division, and confusion. Who has all the information? There is a statement made about Brother Lee; you can’t ask Brother Lee about it. “If you try to discern this way, you will be brought into death. This is serious. You read through this thing, you listen to this thing, you exercise your mind, you try to discern what is right, what is wrong, and all the while you are eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and you will be the first one to be killed." These words of RK are quite frightening to me. They show the ruthless strategy he is prepared to use to silence all dissent and silence all questions about the LSM that do not glorify it. This is how marriages and families are destroyed when all members do not hold the same opinion about the LSM Church, and find it difficult to say nothing when danger is perceived. Of course it is a convenient tool for those who have much to hide. I remember listening to a talk by RK when he was talking about a friend of his, a non-believer, who was saved shortly before he died. RK said it was nice and all that he was saved, but it was too late, it was too late to help build the body of Christ. Here RK was setting himself up to judge as God in the Godhead, not merely in life and nature. |
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#483 | ||
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Aron posted this a few days ago Quote:
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#484 | |
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Posts: 707
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IGZY http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=38 TERRY http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...6&postcount=40 OHIO http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=41 ALWAYS LEARNING http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...5&postcount=42 |
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#485 | ||
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As it turns out, what Ron spoke is only a modern example of a pattern that has long existed within the LC. The pattern which I am referring to is a large amount of vagueness in conveying accusations presented as cause for church discipline. Just look at what WL had to say on the subject: Quote:
Quarantine implies someone is sick and there is no choice to but to set that person aside. To go along with the analogy, being sick or leprous is the sole accusation, so what exactly does that mean? That is what Lee refused to define. He didn't want to justify his actions. He wouldn't stand behind things that he did. That's not the pattern the Apostle Paul set. Paul made a case and then said to "deliver such a one to Satan." If LCers aren't willing to stand behind their statements or actions in the same way that Paul did, then they shouldn't be making them.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#486 | |
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Knowing how evangelists like a Billy Graham are besmirched by ones in the local churches. It makes one wonder why do they even bother with gospel work if there's the attitude "it's too late"?
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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#487 | |
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A Pure Testimony of Jesus - 1983, W. Lee “The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Concerning the Lord's Recovery chapter 1 section 4, 1983) http://www.twoturmoils.com/Recoverin...onyofJesus.pdf |
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#488 | |
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Those who are part of this system don't realize what they are giving themselves to or who they are following. They think that following Lee absolutely is essential to being a Christian. And it's not that following a leader as an example is wrong, per se, however, the leader that is being followed is a man who insisted on being #1. He insisted submission to his totalitarian regime. He excused sin when he knew that it could harm his ministry. This is the man who so many LC members are following.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#489 | |
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June 29th, 2007 To whom this may concern among the brothers and sisters in the Lord: On the Internet in recent days a discussion has arisen concerning the perceived inconsistency of the stand of the brothers from the Mid-west. That alleged “inconsistency” relates to the current stand of a number of Midwest local churches and Great Lakes brothers (“GLA Brothers”) viz-a-vi LSM’s “Blended Brothers” and their past position related to Brother Witness Lee. One specific point offered as “evidence” of this alleged “inconsistency” is the inclusion of signatures of brothers from the Mid-West on a February 21st, 1986 letter addressed to brother Witness Lee. While I believe the allegation of inconsistency is based on non sequitur reasoning, the allegation did cause me to reread the Letter along with Brother Lee's reply. Based on that re-examination, I arrived at the conclusions elaborated below. Before proceeding, let me emphasize that this letter expresses my own personal convictions and I do not presume to speak for other GLA Brothers, nor the brothers with whom I currently serve in Toronto. However, I do know that some of the GLA Brothers also have regrets about their signature being on the Letter. I am presently an elder of the community of Christians meeting as the Church in Toronto whose primary meeting place is located at 671 Sheppard Avenue East. In 1986 I was one of the 419 brothers who signed the Letter addressed to Brother Lee, endorsing his leadership. Hindsight is 20/20. We are now more than 20 years further along in our journey with the Lord. In addition, 10 years have elapsed since Brother Lee went to be with the Lord. We now have the benefit of 20 years history to evaluate the results of that 1986 Letter endorsing Brother Lee’s leadership. Given what I now know and what I have subsequently learned during this 20-year-plus period of time I wish to state that my signing of the Letter at that time, though done with the right heart, was ill-conceived. Were it possible, today, I would remove my signature. Since that is not possible, as a second-best alternative I am writing this letter of retraction. There are many reasons for this decision but the more important ones I have listed below: · In 1986 I had been functioning as an elder less than 1 year. As a ‘novice’ elder I attended the special 1986 Elders’ Training in Anaheim CA. It was during that training that this Letter was composed, circulated and the attendees’ signatures were solicited. Although I did read the contents of the Letter (at least once), to some extent the contextual peer pressure and imposed time constraints were factors in my decision to sign the Letter. (There were 419 signatures out of a potential 425 who attended the elders’ training). · The 1986 Elders’ Training was not conducted in a vacuum; neither was the elders’ Letter composed in a void. Brother Lee was concerned about certain situations in the Lord’s recovery, situations of which I and many other attendees were unaware. He addressed some embryonic trends he thought he perceived. Unfortunately Brother Lee did not address those events or persons directly and specifically in his elders’ training messages. Consequently, many brothers (including myself) interpreted his sharing subjectively as applying to ourselves. In retrospect, it seems that was not what Brother Lee intended. Nevertheless these factors “coloured” our understanding and response to Brother Lee’s messages, including the elders’ Letter to Brother Lee. · I am not aware that Brother Lee solicited or expected any Letter of support from the elders. I now have good reason to believe that Brother Benson Phillips (perhaps along with others) engineered the drafting of the Letter and orchestrated the ground swell of support to obtain the signatures as a way of currying favour with Brother Lee and the LSM Ministry Office. In retrospect, it seems like I (and many others) were perhaps being used as “pawns” in the efforts of others to gain influence and advance their own strategic advantage in the recovery. · As a 'rookie' elder I was unable to see the potential pitfalls that were contained within the text of the Letter. Brother Lee with the wisdom shown in his response2 was well aware of and warned of these potential pitfalls. · Also as a 'greenhorn' elder I was unaware that certain terms used in the Letter to Brother Lee such as 'repudiate all differences among the churches' and 'the church in our place be identical with all the local churches' could be and would be later misapplied by the Blended Brothers. For example, based upon this Letter of endorsement for Brother Lee’s leadership, the churches were subsequently strongly encouraged to adopt the “one publication” policy and the uniform use of HWMR. This was in spite of Brother Lee's warning to avoid misapplying terms used in the Letter. · The Letter contains certain caveats, like 'avoiding leadership as much as possible'. However, it appears that, when it is expedient to the Blended Brothers, their recent actions are the very opposite of the thought contained in 'avoiding leadership as much as possible'. Thus we have subsequently heard teachings regarding a higher authority than the elders emanating from the Blended Brothers on the LSM podium. For example, in the July 2006 issue of the Ministry magazine on pages 212 through 213 we read the following words spoken by brother Ron Kangas: "An elder’s local authority pales in comparison to the authority of the Head expressed through His representatives in the Body." In my view, this looks more like a self-serving asserting of authority, rather than practicing the commitment to 'avoiding leadership as much as possible' (contained in the 1986 Letter). · The Letter contains the declaration that “all the preceding points are the clear and definite teaching of the Bible.” In retrospect this caveat has not been applied to the Letter’s contents as stringently as it should. We affirm that “The Bible is our unique standard” for both teaching and practice in our individual Christian life and the corporate church-life. Hence all the statements contained in the Letter should have been interpreted, qualified and applied in the light of Scripture. In recent years, on the contrary, the tendency fostered by the Blended Brothers has been to take selected portions of Witness Lee’s teachings and make them the de facto standard for the local churches in the recovery. We thus hear of practices that Brother Lee endorsed such as PSRP elevated to the extent that it is alleged to be 'the only way to teach the saints.' This type of claim is made even though such a term (PSRP) or practice is not clearly shown in the Scriptures. · The positive results we hoped would be achieved such as "leading the saints to preach the gospel in every possible way" have not come about. In fact, initiatives such as alternate ways of carrying a gospel burden have been strongly attacked by the presumed engineer of the Letter and by many other signatories of the Letter. · The 1986 Letter recognized the leadership position to Brother Lee in ‘the work’ and ‘the ministry’. This recognition was based on the realization that Brother Lee had brought the recovery to North America mainly through his rich ministering of the Word. This leadership position was subsequently appropriated by the Blended Brothers when Brother Lee departed in 1997. This appropriation, to my view, was not supported by their own rich ministry. Rather, they sought to elevate Brother Lee's status and in doing so implicitly preserve their leadership role through their association with Brother Lee. Neither I nor most of the elders who signed in 1986 could have foreseen the subsequent development of an elite group of brothers who view themselves as the only legitimate “continuation” of Brother Lee’s ministry. That possibility was surely not contemplated by me or by the vast majority of signatories in 1986. Yet, that Letter opened the door for these (and other related) developments in the subsequent 20-plus years. Default Reconsidering Signature (cont.) In Brother Lee's April 11th, 1986 response to this Letter, he evidently foresaw the potential pitfalls of the term "one with the ministry" used in the Letter. Hence in Brother Lee’s response he included the following: "Its proper definition is not to follow any man, any doctrine or any movement, but is to be one with the Lord’s move today according to the Lord’s vision, without any intrinsic element of exalting any person or promoting any work." In 1986 the term ‘one with the ministry’ was a new item in the vocabulary of the recovery. Since that time, and especially since Brother Lee’s passing, being ‘one with the ministry’ has been emphasized ad nauseum by the Blended Brothers. This has occurred in spite of the fact that this phrase does not appear in the New Testament! Moreover, under the Blended Brothers’ teaching, the importance of being ‘one with the ministry’ has been enhanced by other non-biblical terms like, the unique “Minister of the Age,’ and the “one wise master-builder who is the acting God.’ Today, I believe, those claiming to closely follow Brother Lee's ministry, rather than avoiding this pitfall, have fallen headlong into it, along with the saints they are leading. I had asked myself, “Over the past decade, since Brother Lee’s passing, what is the fruit of the Blended Brothers' leadership?” But this realization above has been my impetus for no longer considering the unquestioning acceptance of the Blended Brothers’ teaching as “good for building up” and is also what has caused me for making this public declaration. For my part, by the Lord's mercy, the recent turmoils have caused me (as well as others with whom I serve) to re-consider how to properly relate to the riches Brother Lee left us. One clear conclusion is that we must go directly to Brother Lee’s writings rather than rely on a second-hand, selective, presentation of them by the Blended Brothers. Moreover, we should learn how to selectively receive his ministry with discernment lest we fall into the error of making it a de facto ‘Third Testament’. Furthermore, Brother Lee’s writings ought to be understood, evaluated and tempered by the Scriptures as our unique standard, rather than forcing the Scriptures to fit the mold of Brother Lee’s writings. I believe the Blended Brothers’ uncompromising insistence on the infallibility of every word, phrase and statement of Brother Lee (when selected and interpreted by them) discredits and spoils the riches left to us in our brother’s ministry. I continue to pray that I can join with the many saints that, in purity and simplicity, are seeking the Lord's will and leading so that the glorious church can be produced as His bride and testimony to the whole universe. Your brother in Christ Steve Pritchard Toronto, Canada February 21, 1986 Anaheim, California Dear Brother Lee, After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord’s recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord’s ministry and the one wise master builder among us. We further agree to practice the church life in our locality absolutely in a new way: to build the church in, through, and based upon home meetings; to lead every member to get used to functioning without any idea to depend on any giant speakers; to teach all the saints to know the basic truths in an educational way that they may teach others for the spreading of the truth; to build up the saints in the growth in life that they may minister life to others, shepherd each other, and take care of the backsliding ones; to lead all the saints to preach the gospel in every possible way; to avoid leadership as much as possible; and to have home gatherings for nurturing the saints in life and big meetings for educating the saints in truths. We agree that all the preceding points are the clear and definite teaching of the Bible according to God’s New Testament economy. Finally, we agree that the success of this new move is our responsibility and will rise up to labor and endeavor with our whole being, looking to the Lord for His mercy and grace that we would be faithful to the end. Your brothers for the Lord's recovery April 11, 1986 The Brothers attending the February 1986 Elders’ Training Dear Brothers: Thank you for your letter dated February 21, 1986 with the list of signatures. I feel very sorry that I could not have time to acknowledge, with appreciation, what you have expressed in your letter and through your signatures until now. Being one with the ministry is a crucial matter, and its effects are exceedingly serious. Its proper definition is not to follow any man, any doctrine or any movement, but is to be one with the Lord’s move today according to the Lord’s vision, without any intrinsic element of exalting any person or promoting any work. May the Lord be merciful and gracious to us, that this action would not be misunderstood or misapplied by anyone in a way that would give the enemy Satan ground for utilization, thus frustrating the Lord’s move today, but rather that this action could be properly used by the Lord to swallow up all the germs of discord which have been existing, even among us, for quite a time in the past. May the Lord remember your kind wishes for me and bless your labors in Him. Your brother in Christ, Witness Lee |
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#490 | ||
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Location: DFW area
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Denominations are, as Unto mentions, centered around specific understandings of scripture as being important. Those things beyond the very basics of the faith may or may not be correct, important, or even important even if not correct. The real thing is what they think about the church universal. Do they see themselves as the church, and like a recent pope declare all others "damaged"? Or do they hold to their beliefs while acknowledging others as also part of the church just as they are? Denominations are primarily bound by details of belief, not names. Each one may or may not be particularly "sectarian." I think that the problem lies in the way the terms are used. If we think of denominations as, by definition, exclusive, we think they are harshly divisive even if they are not. And we tend to use the term "sectarian" to denote those that are (as I called it) harshly divided. Those that think they are the church and others are damaged. The LRC/LCM is a good example. The Church of Christ is (or has been) at least somewhat in this group. Surely there is a level of "we are right and you are not" in virtually every group. And sometimes the rank-and-file members have a different idea of how harsh that separation is than the leadership does. (Not much difference in the LRC. They pretty much all hold a hard line.) I must say that I prefer to meet with people who believe in those side issues closer to what I believe. It keeps there from being as much controversy in the meetings. I am mostly happy to allow the leaders, theologians, etc., dig deep into the things that divide. For the most part, I think that they view it as important to the church as a whole, but they also have a more realistic view of the totality, and even unity of the church than most of us do. Two different churches on opposite corners is often not as divisive as we were made to believe. They are not at war. Each not declaring the other to be deficient in a serous way. Until some group like Nee's'/Lee's comes along. Find a novel approach to defining the church such that you are it and others simply are not. Declare the people as automatically members of your group and declare the groups they meet with as harlots.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#491 | |
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I tend to view sectarianism as denominations taken to the extreme. In other posts, I have stated that I view denominations as benign and I fully stand behind that. And I think this is how most people would view them. It’s unfortunate that Christians divide, but it’s also senseless in trying to overcome an inevitability of human nature. Much of the problem with what Nee and Lee did was that they took a problem that is generally recognized and understood among Christians (division) and attempted to redefine this denomination ‘problem’, and characterize it as something much worse than it really is. I don't blame Nee or Lee for being tempted to fix the problem they saw, but what I see as being highly concerning is the likely possibility that the problem was constructed into a bigger issue than it really was solely to give them a straw man to tear apart. The reasons as to why this would be beneficial are not too hard too hard to figure out. Characterizing denominations as a great evil paved the road for claims to be made about the superiority of the LC. I personally saw this pattern time and time again. LC members stand up and tear apart denominations. Some of these people probably never set foot in a non-LC building before, so how would they know what denominations do? Obviously at least some people have fabricated their characterization of denominations. All for what? So that LC members have a way to claim that they’re better than everyone else. It's really sad actually, and it's blatant sectarianism at work. If LCers truly think that denominations are bad, they should take a hard look at themselves until they realize that the LC represents something much much worse.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#492 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,663
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#493 |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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I lost all respect for Ron when I discovered that he is a man who will not stand behind his words. He goes and calls a fellow brother a "man of death." When called to explain his position, he wouldn't even afford Steve a simple response. That is something that I have no respect for.
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#494 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 148
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Apparently, Ron and other Blendeds were heavily influenced by Phillip Lee. Instead of looking away unto Jesus they looked away unto Phillip Lee. It does not surprise me that they resemble Phillip more than they resemble Christ.
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#495 | ||
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Quite to the contrary, an Anaheim elder, Philip Lin, expressed a great appreciation for Philip Lee. It makes me want to gag: Quote:
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Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. |
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#496 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
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The above implies that being a "faithful saint" means giving one's "whole being to the ministry of Witness Lee," even if the motivation is selfish and sullied. The Blended have learned well from Philip Lee. |
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#497 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
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![]() What a blatant deception inflicted upon all the "faithful saints" of God. Quote:
The whole distortion by Witness Lee and the Blendeds was "the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error," and it makes me sick to my stomach. Here's Phillip Lee, the hot-tempered, licentious bully, who was not even identified by name by his father, portrayed as a faithful Levitical serving one in the LSM office and who needs to be apologized to. What a projection of guilt and shame! ![]() ![]()
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#498 | |
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Location: USA
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Tree of Life?! These people could used a little knowledge of good and evil! Lord, how long? ![]() |
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#499 | |
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Posts: 960
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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#500 | |
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Posts: 960
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The same words are used in Proverbs 3:18 to represent wisdom. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her, and happy is every one that holdest her fast. It's used in Proverbs 11:30 as a fruit of the righteous. 30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that is wise winneth souls. And in Proverbs 13:12 as like having desire fulfilled. 12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick; but desire fulfilled is a tree of life. And Proverbs 15:4 as how good or helpful is good speech. A soothing tongue is a tree of life; but perverseness therein is a wound to the spirit. I'll get to the NT next, but it does not look like the tree of life is a principle or command to behave/function by intuition or whatever it is that the blendeds say you touch in your spirit. The word life without a qualifying adjective...like Christ's life, God's life, my dog's life, etc. can be misleading and possibly used by satan (or any other nefarious being/person) to indicate any intuitive feeling that one receives from any source. I wonder if this is a safe practice for Christians? Do the church fathers have any comments on this topic?
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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