Minoru Chen is filled with Witness Lee's spirit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwSe...YdFvzDm6XfMO0Q

Blended brother Minoru Chen says he is "full of Witness Lee's spirit". This sounds like something cultish and creepy to me. Why do these people say these kind of things and not expect to be called a cult?

[Freedom]

This kind of stuff is why the cult label still sticks. It seems like they feel that they have the right to do whatever they want without being called a cult. Maybe that sense of entitlement is the real problem.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by doggonit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwSe...YdFvzDm6XfMO0Q
Blended brother Minoru Chen says he is "full of Witness Lee's spirit". This sounds like something cultish and creepy to me. Why do these people say these kind of things and not expect to be called a cult?

"Spiritual discernment is our God-given early warning system that lets us know something is wrong in the spiritual realm even though nothing appears wrong in the natural realm. The Holy Spirit indwells every believer, and He isn't passive when we encounter wrong spirits." The Bondage Breaker p. 184, by Neil T. Anderson

It sounds like your spiritual discernment has kicked in!

Minoru may have crossed a line here. He likely doesn't mean he is literally full of Witness Lee's spirit, but then again, maybe he does mean exactly that. If he believes that, he has been deceived by the father of lies. Such a thing is not supported by Scripture. That is, the "spirit" of one man (Minoru) can be filled with the "spirit" of another man, Witness Lee. You're right. To say such a thing is creepy and not only cultish, but could be occultish. Minoru, or any Christian, should never say such a thing under any circumstances.

My opinion: Minoru being filled with the spirit of Witness Lee is more likely a strong soulish connection and nothing of the Holy Spirit. Notice Minoru didn't claim it was a matter of the Holy Spirit. He should certainly never share this kind of stuff with other believers.

I'm not an authority by any means, but like you, this creeps me out.

Nell

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by doggonit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwSe...YdFvzDm6XfMO0Q
Blended brother Minoru Chen says he is "full of Witness Lee's spirit". This sounds like something cultish and creepy to me. Why do these people say these kind of things and not expect to be called a cult?

This sounds like a Xi Jinping move to take over the communist party and be the supreme leader. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Christian say they were full of the spirit of Paul or Peter or John. This kind of talk would lift the status of the dead WL to that above the apostles and equal to Jesus.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by doggonit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwSe...YdFvzDm6XfMO0Q
Blended brother Minoru Chen says he is "full of Witness Lee's spirit". This sounds like something cultish and creepy to me. Why do these people say these kind of things and not expect to be called a cult?

What can you say but WOW!!!???

Made me think of another group, the Seven Day Adventists - many of them could be said to be filled with a dead leader's spirit, namely Ellen G. White. And this is what you often touch when exposed to SDA teachings, etc. Just like with the LC . . . you don't touch Christ, but rather the shadow of a dead brother. (and of course it is not really their spirit, but I think rather a deceiving spirit that keeps them from Christ & divides from other believers)

Lord have mercy!

[Weighingin]

Could it be possible that his thought may be from 2 Kings 2:9, when Elisha requested of Elijah: “Let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.?”
However, except for John the Baptist being considered the one who comes in the spirit and power of Elijah, I am not aware of anything else. I haven’t heard of anything like this in Christian history also.

[Curious]

I suspect that Minoru Chen has had some spiritual encounter, a dream or a wakeful experience in which he has identified himself spiritually connected or sourced by the sense of Witness Lee in or around him. A subjective and likely a series of subjective such experiences.

I believe these to be the ruling demons over the LC and although they masquerade as the sense of the departed Witness Lee, they are counterfeit. Experiencing the dead is occultic and widely accepted as so in the non-Catholic, Christian world. Saul calling up Samuel, and OT prohibitions on calling up the dead etc. (That includes accepting, welcoming them to be floating around you, whether summoned or not). In calling them ruling demons I am referencing the book of Daniel, he waited 21 days while the angel fought the Prince of Persia.

These demonic rulers become strong when there is no repentance, no humility and no actual faith being exercised. So the idea that no regeneration can happen outside the LC is a direct lie. no real regeneration can actually happen within it! They are relying on the wrong things to provide regeneration!

I'm going to relate my own experience of the demonic hold over an LCer. I prayed a prayer to 'bind and muzzle' any demonic forces in the life of a particular LCer before meeting one time. just to see what, if anything, would happen. Then during the conversation, the most inappropriate and rather shocking reference popped right out of their mouth! it revealed their true inner narrative, and not their outward persona. if I was in any doubt as to the reference, the person confirmed it themselves, by becoming very anxious, unable to focus on any further conversation, and asking me repeatedly if I was OK. with no reason to consider I wasn't. I didn't take offence as I had prayed the prayer so it was as if this LCer had become suddenly unprotected without any knowledge of how. I chose not to do that again as I felt it would be to expose them to deliberate humiliation. I'm curious but not cruel.

I left concluding that the demons main agenda that I saw that day, was to enable the person to project quite a false persona. To create the sense of a totally appropriate, personable and agreeable impression. But at the same time, the person can carry their own inappropriate thoughts with no conscience. With the demons temporarily disabled, the truth is not under control anymore, so it's not happening automatically for them. I suspect therefore, that this will be a big issue in the LC behavior and dynamic of interactions between people.

Maybe if talking to LCers, binding the familiar spirits they operate under can help with reasoning with them. Just a thought.

[Nell]

There's a lot we don't know about Minoru's motivation for saying such a thing, but this discussion has brought forth a worse case scenario. Words matter and at best, Minoru is guilty of poor judgment.

Nell

Anyone who really knows Minoru Chen knows that this is not something out of the ordinary for him. He talks like this all the time. He is not creepy at all. He is a very intelligent man. He always chooses his words very carefully. When he says he has brother Lee's spirit he means it. He believes it. He also believes that Witness Lee is in the meetings and saying "AMEN!" to every word he says. He has said this kind of thing over and over again for many years. Nothing new for this dude!

[byHismercy]

God tells us in scripture not to practice necromancy (communing with the dead) because those that do can be defiled by it. I find it to be very creepy. My question for you, is, do you agree with this kind of talk, this practice of communing with the dead? Or do you stand with Gods' word? How do you feel about this talk being brought into the assembly of the saints? Are you for it, or against it?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyone who really knows Minoru Chen knows that this is not something out of the ordinary for him. He talks like this all the time. He is not creepy at all. He is a very intelligent man. He always chooses his words very carefully. When he says he has brother Lee's spirit he means it. He believes it. He also believes that Witness Lee is in the meetings and saying "AMEN!" to every word he says. He has said this kind of thing over and over again for many years. Nothing new for this dude!

OK. This isn't helping. Minoru's not creepy. He just says creepy things. All the time he chooses his not-creepy words carefully, intelligently. Witness Lee is in the meetings. These are not the words of a sober minded man.

Nell

[Curious]

It is astonishing that on one hand the LC claims to practise 'proper' christianity, with nothing but the 'pure word of God' (only rightly 'crystalised' by WN and WL). And then blatantly promote classic Asian style ancestor worship. In which, the departed spirit can be called apon to help you and it comes home with you after the funeral to continue as a member of your household, only an invisible one.

This is the clearest description of what Minoru Chen is describing here, in my opinion. And celebrating Christmas is so pagan.... but direct ancestor worship is promoted from the podium! They are really quite a mixed-up bunch.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

OK. This isn't helping. Minoru's not creepy. He just says creepy things. All the time he chooses his not-creepy words carefully, intelligently. Witness Lee is in the meetings. These are not the words of a sober minded man.

Nell

This really should not seem extraordinary to anyone- obviously WL became god in nature. Now he is everywhere and all knowing and all seeing.

WL kept tripping over 1Cor 15.45b and wanted to change “a” to “the” and now look! M Chen found out that WL became a life giving spirit! This should be new light and a great confirmation of the Lee Theology. The processed triune Lee. Great hope and expectation for all the LC people- if they are faithful to the WL/LSM theology, they too can become a life giving haint.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyone who really knows Minoru Chen knows that this is not something out of the ordinary for him. He talks like this all the time. He is not creepy at all. He is a very intelligent man. He always chooses his words very carefully. When he says he has brother Lee's spirit he means it. He believes it. He also believes that Witness Lee is in the meetings and saying "AMEN!" to every word he says. He has said this kind of thing over and over again for many years. Nothing new for this dude!

This one is still rattling around for me. Is Minoru a “blended”? Is he the only one who talks like this? Do those attending the meeting, hearing this, sit there and say “amen”? “Unregistered” doesn’t seem to have a problem with this non-Christian...what?...”ministry”?

Maybe we will get some “shepherding words” on this. I’m serious. I would like to hear whatever explanation they have. Maybe Minrou will come out here and explain?

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

This one is still rattling around for me. Is Minoru a “blended”? Is he the only one who talks like this? Do those attending the meeting, hearing this, sit there and say “amen”? “Unregistered” doesn’t seem to have a problem with this non-Christian...what?...”ministry”?

Maybe we will get some “shepherding words” on this. I’m serious. I would like to hear whatever explanation they have. Maybe Minrou will come out here and explain?

Nell

My thought is that if Minoru is speaking at the semi-annual trainings, he is one of the blendeds, but of course, the co-workers just posted an article that says it's an "absurd notion" to ask for the names of the co-workers, so they would probably call it absurd to ask to know who is a "blended" too.

I would say Minoru is the worst at waxing poetic in every meeting about "our brother". The others mention Lee a lot too, but Minoru seems to be the most egregious at starting a lot of messages with Witness Lee before turning to the actual outline at hand.

Minoru says that he is full of Lee's spirit in the first ~50 seconds of the video. If you turn it up you can hear a few people saying amen, but it doesn't sound like many. (No one said anything contrary, though, of course.)

I think Unregistered's post was more saying that Minoru has been like this for a while. I don't think Unreg was saying they don't have a problem with it, just that Minoru presents himself well as polished, well-spoken, and intelligent. And if Minoru says something, he means it. Minoru knows how to charm an undiscerning crowd.

The shepherdingwords guys seems to be keeping an eye on what is being posted around the internet. Hopefully they will address Minoru's eye-raiser, but we know they will just defend it tooth and nail and blame anyone who has a problem with it, rather than being honest about how off the wall it is.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

This one is still rattling around for me. Is Minoru a “blended”? Is he the only one who talks like this?

IIRC didn't WL become the MOTA by talking this way about WN?

Of course MC is a Blended.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Curious

It is astonishing that on one hand the LC claims to practise 'proper' christianity, with nothing but the 'pure word of God' (only rightly 'crystalised' by WN and WL). And then blatantly promote classic Asian style ancestor worship. In which, the departed spirit can be called apon to help you and it comes home with you after the funeral to continue as a member of your household, only an invisible one.

This is the clearest description of what Minoru Chen is describing here, in my opinion. And celebrating Christmas is so pagan.... but direct ancestor worship is promoted from the podium! They are really quite a mixed-up bunch.

See, I didn't even know that ancestor worship is a thing. It might have helped me to discern Chinese culture masquerading as 'spiritual words' as a college aged caucasian American. Minorus' thinking just needs the blood of Christ applied to it.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

IIRC didn't WL become the MOTA by talking this way about WN?

Of course MC is a Blended.

Please don't laugh at me, Ohio, but what is llRC?? I can't find it.....but I see it a lot.

[byHismercy]

The problems are related, and systemic in the LC.

Don't ask who the blended brothers are!

Don't ask who the Coworkers of North America are!

Don't think we actually have(had) our own, declared apostle! (Unless you find us saying so in a recording now floating around YouTube, wink wink).

How can they claim to be operating for God when they refuse to speak or teach anything in a transparent manner? They are hiding what they truly believe in the darkened corner, only the 'true believers' in their ministry being privy to it all.

My question to the 'Coworkers' is why??? Why do you need to operate in secrecy, in the shadows? I posit the LC is not following the Lord in their ways, but rather all their ways will be brought into light by the Lord Himself.

[Curious]

Maybe we will get some “shepherding words” on this. I’m serious. I would like to hear whatever explanation they have. Maybe Minrou will come out here and explain?

Nell

I agree with you, Nell. Shepherding words are obliged to address this issue of Minoru Chen testifying blatantly to ancestor worship. 'Unregistered' made it all the clearer that he is doing so repeatedly and habitually, in fact. Which makes it even worse!!

Trapped suggests they will defend it tooth and nail. I am fascinated to know how they may try to do so. I think it’s too ‘crystal’ clear that is can’t be defended, and my reasons follow:

First, those that lead the LC are not used to having their ‘speaking’ challenged. They are used to a room full of undiscerning ‘amens’ to everything they say. They can’t pull that in the world outside their cloister, which they are no doubt, well on the way to learning.

Secondly, MC’s words are so obviously ancestor worship. Any person from Asian culture, or familiar with Asian culture can see this a mile away. I’ll add a bit more context here, as 'byHismercy' has indicated knowing a bit more to be helpful:

Ancestor worship is a huge matter in traditional Chinese culture. I’ve known Chinese couples who have become Christian from a Taoist background where the parents/ in-laws have been the most upset that their adult children will not look after their ‘spirits’ after they depart. They will not build an idol shelf for them and invite them home to dwell with them after their funerals, or continue to speak to them and invite their help and counsel in matters of life. This leaves the older generation feeling deeply abandoned and betrayed, as they face their ‘afterlife’ now with no place to go. It is their biggest objection, by far and away, with their children changing religion. You just don’t do that to your parents!! It’s a great stress for everyone involved.

Of all issues brought out by this forum, this one is soooo straightforwardly wrong for a professing Christian. A teacher in the LC, (weather he be a BB or an apostle or whatever his status is), is openly sharing ancestor worship, (in this case his spiritual father rather than biological one), and mixing it with WL’s theology. It will come naturally to him as he has clearly not cut ties to the traditional religious beliefs of his own heritage. That is the reason, in my logic, why he does this as a Chinese man, and the white American brothers have not felt this in the same way.

Third, the bible is clear that communicating with the dead is witchcraft. WL is supposed to have gone to heaven, not be ‘hanging around’ his possibly, favourite BB follower.

Please, Shepherding Words, have a go at tackling this. I will love to learn of how you process this matter for those of us poor regenerates in out here in outer darkness!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The problems are related, and systemic in the LC.

Don't ask who the blended brothers are!

My question to the 'Coworkers' is why??? Why do you need to operate in secrecy, in the shadows? I posit the LC is not following the Lord in their ways, but rather all their ways will be brought into light by the Lord Himself.

Reminds me of those two characters who came to Antioch while Peter was visiting and lunching with the Gentile brothers. (Galatians 2). Peter was fellowshipping in the Spirit until "they" showed up. "They" came from James. Who cares about their names? Their names were never recorded. All that was important was that they were "from James." They had a kind of fake authority, transfered from James. Even Peter was spooked by them. What if Peter got reported back to James? This fake authority permeated Jerusalem. Everyone there was made sick by this falsehood, this fakery. They thought it was real. Wasn't it real? Everybody else thought so!

Except Paul. He refused to accept this fake authority. He rejected their fake rules about kosher foods. About eating with the Gentiles. About circumcision needed for salvation. About all the fake stuff from all the fake authorities from Jerusalem. From "headquarters." From "all the brothers." Because Paul knew the truth. And the truth is that God is no respecter of fake blendeds and fake workers with their fake authority and fake rules. Once we know the truth, we also are set free like Paul. And God set us free so that we can free others by speaking the truth.

[aron]

I personally think that there are times to stay anonymous, when the imbalance of power indicates its prudence. I think of the anonymous "Heavenly voice of the truth guard" who wrote the pamphlet in 1988. Who wrote it is not so important, to me. The warnings it raises are still valid. The observations are no less real.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This is a pamphlet that was circulated among the Local Churches at the height of the turmoil in America and Canada in the mid-late 1980s. This is an English translation of the original, which was written in Chinese

Please note that Witness Lee is referred to as "Mr X",
Max Rapoport, former lead Co-Worker, is referred to as "Mr. M"
and Phillip Lee, Witness Lee's son, is referred to as "the second son".

------------------------------------------------
CONCLUSION
Today we have many questions in the Lord's Recovery. In order for us to press on, we need to clarify those questions. According to the writer's understanding, almost every co-worker of his early years, does not agree with the recent works of Mr. X. Does that mean that everyone but him, does not see the heavenly vision? This pamphlet represents the voices of many. What we ask is to clarify these questions which will enable us to press on. We are not judging things according to right or wrong. In that day, we will all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ. Only He is our judge. Today we hope that we may keep an undefiled conscience toward God, toward men and toward ourselves.

Dear brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery, please do not read this pamphlet with colored glasses, but with a pure heart. Check with the pure Words in the Bible. Whether you are included in this writing or just a third party, if you have the peace in your conscience, then forget this writing. However, if your conscience bothers you, then that could be the Lord rebuking you through this writing. Please be sure to come back to the Lord and thoroughly deal with all the wrong doings. It is everyone's responsibility to protect the testimony of the Lord's Recovery.

Regarding the financial questions, we hope that the ministry office will put out a detailed statement by a CPA firm, or let IRS or FRANCHISE TAX BOARD examine all financial matters.
The contents of this pamphlet are only for the dear ones in the Lord's Recovery. Please do not show this to outsiders, so that our testimony will not be damaged. You are welcome to copy it and distribute it to others in the Lord's Recovery. May the Lord be with you all. Amen.

January 29, 1988
by THE HEAVENLY VOICE OF THE TRUTH GUARD

In the case of Minoru, naming Witness Lee is the opposite. Why should there be any name but Jesus? Why invoke the authority of your buried dead? Jesus rose, not Witness Lee. Minoru's act is even worse than saying, "I am of Calvin" or "I am of Luther" - he's claiming a living power from a dead person.

There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, crucified and resurrected to glory. There is no other name. Minoru is creating another name, another interlocutor, another power. It is another spirit.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Reminds me of those two characters who came to Antioch while Peter was visiting and lunching with the Gentile brothers. (Galatians 2). Peter was fellowshipping in the Spirit until "they" showed up. "They" came from James. Who cares about their names? Their names were never recorded. All that was important was that they were "from James." They had a kind of fake authority, transfered from James. Even Peter was spooked by them. What if Peter got reported back to James? This fake authority permeated Jerusalem. Everyone there was made sick by this falsehood, this fakery. They thought it was real. Wasn't it real? Everybody else thought so!

Except Paul. He refused to accept this fake authority. He rejected their fake rules about kosher foods. About eating with the Gentiles. About circumcision needed for salvation. About all the fake stuff from all the fake authorities from Jerusalem. From "headquarters." From "all the brothers." Because Paul knew the truth. And the truth is that God is no respecter of fake blendeds and fake workers with their fake authority and fake rules. Once we know the truth, we also are set free like Paul. And God set us free so that we can free others by speaking the truth.

This is so ironic considering Mark Raabe's statement about Lee being the Recoverys' own Paul.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

In the case of Minoru, naming Witness Lee is the opposite. Why should there be any name but Jesus? Why invoke the authority of your buried dead? Jesus rose, not Witness Lee. Minoru's act is even worse than saying, "I am of Calvin" or "I am of Luther" - he's claiming a living power from a dead person.

There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, crucified and resurrected to glory. There is no other name. Minoru is creating another name, another interlocutor, another power. It is another spirit.

I agree, Aron. This elevation of Lee and The Ministry is what I saw as the reason we were dropped from fellowship and friendship. I have long believed this putting the Lee Ministry as the qualifier (of who will be received by LC believers) on saints is a form of idolatry. Lee is their idol. This, I think, is proof. I second Nell and Curious.....the Coworkers at shepherdingwords.com must address this. Let them justify ancestor worship, necromancy, and their idolatry. Let them show with scripture why they are justified in these things.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

...the Coworkers at shepherdingwords.com must address this. Let them justify ancestor worship, necromancy, and their idolatry. Let them show with scripture why they are justified in these things.

It certainly looks like necromancy, but the real answer is probably a little more prosaic. MC is building his own guanxi network within WL's network. That's how the system works. Elevate the Big Boss, and you get elevated. It's what WL did with WN, and MC is following suit.

The alternative is to "go rogue", like TC and DYL did, and build your own guanxi network. Those are the two alternatives in the LC system.

Remember RK in the wake of that last rebellion? "Can we ever honour our brother too much?" Same thing - those who honour the Big Boss, themselves go up the ranks.

[UntoHim]

aron,
For the sake of our readers could you please give us a few lines of explanation on what a guanxi network is, and how it may apply to the leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee?
-

[Nell]

Aron, I did some reading on "guanxi". I don't understand how this relates to MC's statements on his belief that he is "filled with Witness Lee's spirit." Maybe you could connect those dots while you're at it.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Aron, I did some reading on "guanxi". I don't understand how this relates to MC's statements on his belief that he is "filled with Witness Lee's spirit." Maybe you could connect those dots while you're at it.

Nell

I knew I was gonna get myself in trouble, I just knew it...

Witness Lee led the charge to extol WN as the "Seer of the Divine Revelation". In this, WL was punching his own meal ticket. And, this is crucial, the meal ticket to the Chinese is not just them but the family as well. WL not only provided resources for himself, but his ne'er-do-well sons also. In the guanxi network, there's a web of reciprocal payments, or favors, or debts, supplying the member with obligations and benefits, and crucially, centered on immediate kin. Thus, Philip Lee got a job, for which he was completely unsuited, and which caused much distress. But the Church, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, got second place to WL's guanxi network. Philip and Timothy got first place.

And the holding power of the network is that the reciprocal ties are binding, no matter how unbiblical, unspiritual. Once rejected, there's no reconciliation. DYL and TC won't make nice with the Blendeds, because they can't, that's the guanxi rule, just like WL & those ejected under his aegis. The power of the guanxi network is that even if it violates the scripture, common sense, the gospel, and the conscience, one's bound by it and to it. Outside the guanxi network is the unthinkable void.

Okay, what does that have to do with MC being filled with WL's spirit? MC was building his own guanxi nest within WL's guanxi nest. MC promoted WL to the uttermost, even with words of heresy(!), yet this was merely his positioning within the larger network, just as WL before him. Do you think MC pays for a cab ride to the airport? I doubt it. Where I was meeting, there was always an airport escort for the Blended - some single brothers would get tagged to go and pick up the visiting dignitary from Anaheim. Why? Because they extolled WL to the uttermost, so they got elevated position. Free cab rides. Among other perks. Like a poster here said, MC is a bright guy, and doesn't speak without some considered reason.

So "orthodoxy", for all its supposed weight and care, gets tossed if the guanxi network is at stake. If MC didn't get payback in this age, he'd never do it. If you don't get what I am saying, consider this: after all the messages that WL gave on the Kingdom, the Body and the Spotless Bride, after all that, he gave it all over to his reprobate son, to soil with his feet. Because the son was at the core of the guanxi network. The Kingdom and the Body and the Bride were props, resources to be exploited and extracted for the network. That's just how it works. The Kingdom and the Body and the Bride were just content for messages to be printed and sold, managed by "the office". Along with socks and ties and chairs and tennis rackets. Calendars and coffee mugs.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

aron,
For the sake of our readers could you please give us a few lines of explanation on what a guanxi network is, and how it may apply to the leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee?
-

In my last post I really attempted to answer ByHisMercy on this topic of hiding identities using today's media as an example, but my post was edited/deleted.

I figured my example was more readily understandable to typical Americans than some obscure "guanxi network," which is totally foreign to our culture.

Best of luck, aron. After reading your many posts on this subject, the best I can say to describe the "guanxi network," is "hive mentality." Perhaps I am way off the mark, though.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my last post I really attempted to answer ByHisMercy on this topic of hiding identities using today's media as an example, but my post was edited/deleted.

I figured my example was more readily understandable to typical Americans than some obscure "guanxi network," which is totally foreign to our culture.

Best of luck, aron. After reading your many posts on this subject, the best I can say to describe the guanxi network," is "hive mentality." Perhaps I am way off the mark, though.

It is a culturally-sourced web of mutual obligations. WL 'owed' his progeny to feast at the LC trough. RK and MC 'owed' WL fealty, praise, dedication. And the LC saints 'owed' MC a cab ride to the airport. Everybody gets something.

But if you ask them to give something to the poor, who have no means to repay in this age, they look at you like you are crazy. The network doesn't work that way. It's not about the resurrection of the righteous, it's about getting mine, today. WN got his, WL got his, now MC is getting his.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by aron

I knew I was gonna get myself in trouble, I just knew it...

Okay, what does that have to do with MC being filled with WL's spirit? MC was building his own guanxi nest within WL's guanxi nest. MC promoted WL to the uttermost, even with words of heresy(!), yet this was merely his positioning within the larger network, just as WL before him.
mugs.

Thankyou aron, for getting yourself into trouble! It resulted in a very good and relevant post that is helpful to all reading this thread and identifies the dynamic at work behind the surface.

To sum up your post, it is a deeper level insight into how traditional, pagan Chinese culture operated. I can also see from it how ancestor worship and guanxi networking, work together. No better qualification for being on the inside track than to claim the endorsement/ accolades from those departed senior authorities in the ‘family’ group.

No doubt the rejection and villainization of the enemy, identified as 'outer' Christianity, must play its part in the schema too. It will be a necessary component of holding this structure of operating in place.

MC is posturing himself…a new term out there is ‘virtue signaling’ …. which seems to fit well with this effort of his as he carefully claims he is ‘hiding in the body’ so that he looks suitably humble, while at the same time, hinting of his greatness and suitability for promotion! Predictably, double-speak in operation.

I want to further comment on the audacity of mixing taoism with Christianity in such a blatant way.

How can such an ‘intelligent man’ be so sloppy, undisciplined and careless in his ‘speaking’, indulging his own practice, words and attitudes with such an opening to pagan religious ideas? In this there is a useful lesson for us all to notice.

Criticizing others as a way of excusing or denying one’s own faults comes with a great side-effect. It is elevating self at the cost of the targeted fall guy. Like a teeter-totter, push one side down and it automatically causes the other side to go up!! Pushing the other down, elevates self. Then with this false assurance, and focus on the other as the ‘bad guy’, a person spends that reflective thinking on someone he’s not responsible to God for, and misses spending that energy on contemplating that who he/she is responsible before God, (their self). The tempering and humbling exercise of self-discovery is side-stepped. The person has a false sense of his own perfection, continually beefed up as he forms the habit of increasing his perception of the faults of the ‘other’. Developing a need to keep criticizing to feed and sustain the identity of their self.

Without the tempering, reflective, responsibility taking, adjusting and humbling components, they are left with whatever feels right is what they go with. The flesh, generational religious and social baggage, all presented unredeemed and careless. Fine within their system as all correction and critical thinking has been successfully squashed.
Not OK with God, or the reality that exists outside of their artificially sustained internal world.

It's far and away off the track, and I believe that to be the dynamic behind it. according to writings here, and my own experience with LCers, it appears that all correction in the LC seems to be directed towards the ‘little potatoes’ and comes with the side-dish of deliberate humiliation, designed to make humility and confession a terrifying experience and one to be avoided. This spreads the need to persecute wrong outside of self, as there is no dignity in humility from within this system. Those up in the system displacing their own shame onto others more vulnerable than themselves. please correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I am but don't see the evidence. I shudder to think of the further reaching consequences of this type of system, on people. Frankly it makes normal denominations seem comparatively heavenly!!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

I believe that to be the dynamic behind it. according to writings here, and my own experience with LCers, it appears that all correction in the LC seems to be directed towards the ‘little potatoes’ and comes with the side-dish of deliberate humiliation, designed to make humility and confession a terrifying experience and one to be avoided. This spreads the need to persecute wrong outside of self, as there is no dignity in humility from within this system. Those up in the system displacing their own shame onto others more vulnerable than themselves. please correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I am but don't see the evidence.

Yes, displaced shame is the currency of the realm. Newbies are seduced by its perceived benefits - "Nobody is enjoying God the way we do! We're on the proper ground! Etc!" - but eventually the screws turn.

I pointed to guanxi because it has deep historical roots and has explanatory power. It seemed odd that WL meekly allowed his sons to damage what he'd worked so hard to build, until one sees that he built his guanxi for his family. To him it wasn't odd at all - it was necessary.

And I keep bringing up the succouring of the poor, and its consistent stress in the NT, to highlight the variance with LC practice. To them, it doesn't build guanxi.

More to the point, I noticed that Americans would dump their non-LC family members, but Chinese would not. Jesus had taught to "hate your father and mother" that wouldn't go along, and "Who is my father and mother and brother and sister" (Mark 3:35; Matt 12:49,50), but to the LC Chinese (by and large) these verses didn't exist, because they couldn't exist. The guanxi wouldn't allow it.

When one sees MC positioning himself within the context of WL's guanxi, it makes sense. Orthodoxy is secondary, even irrelevant.

[Nell]

Aron. You might as well go ahead and change your moniker to “Trouble”.

In the current context, carried to its ultimate conclusion, it appears that we of the American mindset, LC or not, are just a bunch of rubes. The “American mindset” for me is dominated by the gospel of Jesus Christ, first and foremost.

Would you say that, I’ll call it “Chinese Socialism”, as you and Curious have described, is dominant in the Chinese culture, or IS the Chinese culture, and takes precedence over every other “mindset” including the gospel of Jesus Christ?

This is still rattling around, but you and Curious have explained what’s going on in a way that makes sense. It seems that we may have been fighting the wrong battle.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Would you say that, I’ll call it “Chinese Socialism”, as you and Curious have described, is dominant in the Chinese culture, or IS the Chinese culture, and takes precedence over every other “mindset” including the gospel of Jesus Christ?

The short answer is, "Yes".

The longer answer is, every culture has its own norms and ways, many tacit and unspoken, even subconscious and unnoticed by its constituents. The Chinese tilts to the collective where the American way is more to the individual. (Think of 'Clint Eastwood' or 'the Lone Ranger' as expressions of ingrained American biases.)

Guanxi network building is a way to make one's nest within the Chinese-centric LC collective, but it also reinforces the norms of that collective, and points to a "Normal Christian Church Life" that's normal only to cultural filters used by WN and WL. Like I said earlier, ask them to "remember the poor, which we were eager to do", as per the apostles with Paul in Gal 2:10, and local churchers stare blankly. That verse simply doesn't exist for them - it can't. They can read the NT repeatedly and they'll skip that verse every time (I could have used others, but chose Galatians 2 as an example).

But for Blended MC, guanxi with its obligations and benefits is normal, like breathing. It just is... like asking a fish, "are you wet?" The fish doesn't have a concept of "not wet" to consider. And we're all like that, really... partly sighted, partly blinded by our native (received) culture.

I read a bit about Watchman Nee's family, as told by a great-niece. She was talking about her father, Watchman Nee's nephew, how he was poorly treated for his Christian faith. In one scene, she described crowds dragging him out of his house, beating him, spitting on him, pulling his hair, calling him "counter-revolutionary" and so forth. (The Chinese are very good at public shaming.) What the niece didn't mention was that Chinese Christians, once in power, may use shaming tactics similar to those used on her late father, to protect THEIR guanxi collective. A trait may be "normal" only to them, but they don't see that. And what's challenging about Chinese culture in particular is how deeply-rooted in millennia-old pre-literate traditions it is. American culture by contrast is recent, superficial, and obvious - in a word, it can be crude - and the Chinese is ancient and refined by hundreds of generations of practice.*

That's perhaps why the Lord prayed, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." That prayer is for all, like, "forgive us (Chinese, Americans, Jews, Russians, Poles) our trespasses, even as we forgive those (Chinese, Americans, Jews, Russians, Poles) who trespass against us." The prayer works for everyone, but one must see the need, and use (apply) it.

Jesus Christ alone has the Sight. He alone is the Light. And he's the Light of the World (Chinese, Americans, Jews, Russians, Poles).

Originally Posted by Nell

In the current context, carried to its ultimate conclusion, it appears that we of the American mindset, LC or not, are just a bunch of rubes.

You're not alone, so don't feel bad. Those running the Keswick Convention were bowled over by WN, the inscrutable Oriental who spoke like Madame Guyon's young cousin. (and some of WN's critiques of European/American church practices were on point).

(* I don't think that culture is of itself "fallen" or "evil". The NT identifies "many tribes and tongues and nations", each presumably with its own native peculiarities. But one must see cultural traits for what they are, and what they're not[!!] or they'll cause deep harm. Unrecognised parent culture distorts one's vision and subsequent voyage).

[JJ]

Yes, Minoru Chen is (sadly) filled with Witness Lee’s proud self-centered spirit.

In 2015 I saw a video of Minoru surrounded by hundreds of adoring local church young people. Minoru told them that if they sought the Lord enough they could some day be like him.

Really.

That was one of the last straws for me.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes, Minoru Chen is (sadly) filled with Witness Lee’s proud self-centered spirit.

In 2015 I saw a video of Minoru surrounded by hundreds of adoring local church young people. Minoru told them that if they sought the Lord enough they could some day be like him.

Really.

That was one of the last straws for me.

Probably around 2005, I attended a week-long college training and Minoru was one of the speakers. I remember him asking someone to stand up and read something. That person messed up a few words and then Minoru gave the person a lecture about how if they were 'perfected' they wouldn't have messed up.

Stuff like that was really an eye opener for me. In order for someone like Minoru to feel that it is his place to publicly humiliate people (just like WL did), there is just a sheer amount of pride and self-centered thinking going on.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

My thought is that if Minoru is speaking at the semi-annual trainings, he is one of the blendeds, but of course, the co-workers just posted an article that says it's an "absurd notion" to ask for the names of the co-workers, so they would probably call it absurd to ask to know who is a "blended" too.

I would say Minoru is the worst at waxing poetic in every meeting about "our brother". The others mention Lee a lot too, but Minoru seems to be the most egregious at starting a lot of messages with Witness Lee before turning to the actual outline at hand.

Minoru says that he is full of Lee's spirit in the first ~50 seconds of the video. If you turn it up you can hear a few people saying amen, but it doesn't sound like many. (No one said anything contrary, though, of course.)

I think Unregistered's post was more saying that Minoru has been like this for a while. I don't think Unreg was saying they don't have a problem with it, just that Minoru presents himself well as polished, well-spoken, and intelligent. And if Minoru says something, he means it. Minoru knows how to charm an undiscerning crowd.

The shepherdingwords guys seems to be keeping an eye on what is being posted around the internet. Hopefully they will address Minoru's eye-raiser, but we know they will just defend it tooth and nail and blame anyone who has a problem with it, rather than being honest about how off the wall it is.

Thanks, Trapped. This helps. Interesting that you used the word “charm”. This carries its own connotation about how others are taken in by his heretical words.

This topic has been a real eye-opener for me. My next question is: how can a Christian talk like this? CAN a Christian talk like this?

I doubt I will ever be able to think of the Local Church, or “Witness Lee’s ministry” without this context. It actually explains a few things. For example:

* Using the same words differently...with different meanings.
* BP’s infamous (paraphrased) “You can’t be sanctified anywhere but in the LC.” “If you leave, your walk is over.” (Meaning: Your place in the “collective” is gone/over.)

Lee used to talk about the “garlic room” referring to becoming “nose blind” to the smell. This takes on a new meaning considering the “collective”. I don’t really know what to call it. I just know that it provides perspective on how such outrageous statements can be made and never called into question.

And, btw, regardless of any underlying cultural whatever, MC’s belief that the spirit of WL lives in him is demonic. He’s apparently a smooth talker, but this one crosses a line. Worse still, he’s teaching it as though it is Christian truth. Question is: why? Why does he say this? To what end? Why does MC think he needs to be filled with the spirit of Witness Lee? According to Aron’s comments, it seems that MC is tone deaf to the way this sounds to American Bible believing Christians.

Nell

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes, Minoru Chen is (sadly) filled with Witness Lee’s proud self-centered spirit.

In 2015 I saw a video of Minoru surrounded by hundreds of adoring local church young people. Minoru told them that if they sought the Lord enough they could some day be like him.

Do you have a link? I find showing others actual videos of the blenders saying these things if more convincing than hearsay... Even when I've heard things myself and mention them to friends and family...suddenly, they've never heard those things or I'm taking them out of context or their given the benefit of the doubt.

I've seen and heard what Freedom mentioned, public shaming, many times, but while I was in the LC I never thought to write stuff down. Wish I had.
ABiF

[Curious]

Yes, Nell I agree thoroughly with you. And others for posting their experiences here.

Originally Posted by aron

It seemed odd that WL meekly allowed his sons to damage what he'd worked so hard to build, until one sees that he built his guanxi for his family. To him it wasn't odd at all - it was necessary....

More to the point, I noticed that Americans would dump their non-LC family members, but Chinese would not. Jesus had taught to "hate your father and mother" that wouldn't go along, and "Who is my father and mother and brother and sister" (Mark 3:35; Matt 12:49,50), but to the LC Chinese (by and large) these verses didn't exist, because they couldn't exist. The guanxi wouldn't allow it.

I want to add to what aron has said about the guanxi network and WL’s nest building for the unregenerate family members if his own family. Contrast this to the requirement the LSM puts on young people to reject their own families in order to become fully participant in the LC, if the family is not interested in joining too.

So, he was ok with promoting the most destructive and painful of experiences for a family, happy to smash and destroy other people's lives in order to build his own family on the backs of those he drew in. This just makes me angry on a deep level, in fact I struggle to find words to express my abhorrence. (I’m now angry with a dead person, does that make me the same as MC only from an opposite angle??)

This is outright evil in action. Interesting aron you say this is something ordinary Americans are more willing to do than those of the Chinese community. They just ignore those scriptures, yet it was a Chinese member that began hinting to me about separating myself from my family as ‘bad company destroys good morals’ he/she quoted that scripture, with no knowledge at all of my family.

Saul was in rebellion against the law of God when he consulted the medium regarding Samuel. The real problem was he was dependant on Samuel and not God. Seeking Samuel after he died was the indication of that. The underlying sin was that Saul was putting too much reliance on a man and not God. Keeping returning to Samuel for guidance even after his departure from this life is the very same problem with the LC. They keep seeking WL and WN. All their focus reveals this, from exclusivity on all their written words, down to MC claiming continuing validation from WL until now.

The callous disregard for ‘family’ of the menial class of the LCM, while at the same time building one’s own family empire on the back of a sacrifice they require from those joining so that they can do the opposite with their own families, regardless of their spiritual standing…..wow, that one really takes the cake. I makes me sick to think of that, that it is real, the damage done and still doing.

Philip Lee was really only doing the same as he saw his father do. Though without the status of his father he just used a different means of exploitation, one that suited him as a young man full of testosterone!!

Appalling, I know who are the real ones who need some shaming!! And they pick on someone for being nervous and messing up some words while reading out loud? What is their standard, as there’s nothing against that in the 10 commandments?! (Their theology just falls apart all over the place!) Doesn’t kindness and encouragement help those who feel nervous? Shaming someone in that situation is also evil, not surprisingly. Sickening, is what they are, truly. What do they have to say about this?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Curious

...The callous disregard for ‘family’ of the menial class of the LCM, while at the same time building one’s own family empire on the back of a sacrifice they require from those joining so that they can do the opposite with their own families, regardless of their spiritual standing…..wow, that one really takes the cake. I makes me sick to think of that, that it is real, the damage done and still doing. ...

Curious,

I don’t know if this is a prayer not, but my entire life I found myself saying “this doesn’t make sense”. I said this about people, events, and my Christian life. Over the years, I believe the Lord has answered my “this doesn’t make sense” prayer/s. So many things about the ministry of Lee didn’t make sense.

I was pressured to make a choice between going to meetings and caring for my elderly parents. I chose my parents. Looking back, this was a blessing to me. As hard as it was to take a stand against what I thought was the “true church”, I walked away and I was blessed.

My walk with the Lord didn’t end. My walk with the Lord grew and became stronger. It took awhile for the fog to clear, but clear it did and is still clearing.

Not only that, I was with my parents when they needed me most, and when I needed them most. My eyes were opened to many things, and my eyes are still being opened.

This, I didn’t see coming.

We were led to believe that abandoning our family was godly and part of His higher purpose. That is a lie. I always had a question about this teaching, was this the right thing to do, or how could it be “spiritual”, to abandon your family? How could this be what God wanted? This doesn’t make sense.

I was used. We all were used. We were playing one “game” but the other side was playing by “power rules”. Actually both sides were used. The game was rigged. Lee’s “ministry” is rigged. Witness Lee’s ministry: You walk away from your family but I get to keep mine. Do as I say, not as I do.

All who were loyal and faithful to Lee should reconsider. Listen to Minoru Chen’s words again. He honestly believes that the “spirit of Witness Lee lives in him”. How is this possible? It’s not even Christian. Read this topic from beginning to end. Pray. We were all deceived, not by Lee, not by Minoru, but by the father of lies. We know who we are wrestling against and it’s not against each other.

Now we know.

Nell

[JJ]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Do you have a link? I find showing others actual videos of the blenders saying these things if more convincing than hearsay... Even when I've heard things myself and mention them to friends and family...suddenly, they've never heard those things or I'm taking them out o

No, I searched today and didn’t find a link to a video of the session.

I wouldn’t question Minoru’s salvation. I heard him give a sweet message of appreciation for the Lord Jesus and of the extreme suffering He endured for us in the days of His crucification that only a believer could give. Unfortunately he is under the spell of Witness Lee that many of us once fell under. I pray for him to get clear and free of that spell now.

[Trapped]

This precisely is what I can't understand. I can't reconcile "genuine believer" with the speaking and teaching I see coming from the LCs. I do see them both, but I don't understand how I can see them both. What is the explanation for there being both? This confounds me to no end.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This precisely is what I can't understand. I can't reconcile "genuine believer" with the speaking and teaching I see coming from the LCs. I do see them both, but I don't understand how I can see them both. What is the explanation for there being both? This confounds me to no end.

This sounds like one of my “this doesn’t make sense” prayers. Keep asking your questions. Something is not right. I see them both too. I don’t understand how. I don’t know the explanation in full, but we are warned about such things in the Word:

2 Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

As for questioning the salvation of another, Minoru’s own non-Christian words raised the questions. We see things and hear things that contradict. What are we supposed to do?

V. 15 above ends with “whose end shall be according to their works.” We are not told specifics on their works. For me, the warning is the gold. Don’t believe everything you see and hear. If something doesn’t sound right, it probably isn’t. Sometimes the questions are more important than the answers. Hummm....could this be why Lee told us not to ask questions?

I know what you’re thinking...this doesn’t make sense. You’re right.

Nell

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by JJ

No, I searched today and didn’t find a link to a video of the session.

Thanks for looking! If it does exist, it's probably buried pretty deep.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my last post I really attempted to answer ByHisMercy on this topic of hiding identities using today's media as an example, but my post was edited/deleted.

I figured my example was more readily understandable to typical Americans than some obscure "guanxi network," which is totally foreign to our culture.

Best of luck, aron. After reading your many posts on this subject, the best I can say to describe the "guanxi network," is "hive mentality." Perhaps I am way off the mark, though.

Ohio,

I don’t think you’re off the mark at all. A “hive mentality”, a “collective”, a generationally established Chinese ancestral network (guanxi?), all seem to add up to one thing: a counterfeit Christian community. Of course, many, if not most of those in the Local Churches are true, born-again believers in Jesus. We know this.

The counterfeit? A ranking member with an apparent longstanding belief (and teaching his belief to others) that he is filled with the spirit of an “ancestor.” This is not only counterfeit but is heresy. Heresy that has apparently been taught openly in their meetings for quite some time by at least one “blended”.

The brilliance of it (a bad brilliance) seems to be that both sides of the matter, LC v. Former members, are left to duke it out over Lee’s flawed and failed “ministry” and its bad fruit. This is an argument that can, and probably will, never be resolved. This is a symptom of the real problem.

We can thank Minoru Chen for pulling back the curtain on the real problem...”the hive”. Curious connected these dots for us, as did you. As did Aron. We have been fighting the wrong battle. Witness Lee’s flawed and failed “ministry” pale in comparison to the undercurrent of the hive. Witness Lee’s ministry was/is only a vehicle to achieve an end...an end that seemingly has little to do with building the church.

What then? One possibility, in his Old Way v. New Way topic, BoxJoBox told us about this:
“I looked the other day at their IRS 990T for 2018 and their asset book value of $100.7 million- I guess their business model works for them.“ (And they can’t refund the $$$ their Daystar investors lost!!!!)

So what is the LSM? A front company for the hive? What is Witness Lee’s “ministry”? A false flag?

Whatever is genuine in this whole matter is genuine because of God’s mercy; whatever is genuine is because of God’s anointing of his Word and the truth of his Word. There has no doubt been genuine and rich and eternal blessings poured out by God Himself. God blesses his people as he has done for centuries before Lee and his “family business” came on the scene. (The “family business”has new meaning, doesn’t it?)

My walk with the Lord really began when I heard the brothers sharing in the meetings in the early days. They were sharing the truth of God’s word that rings to this day. What came after those early days, I remember only as a lot of words. Repetitious hollow words.

So I guess now I’m in as much trouble, if not more, than Aron. It’s making sense to me.

Nell

PS: I’d like to read your example on “today’s media”.

[Boxjobox]

I was reading today in Luke- the beloved physician, Luke 13, where he writes about a woman in the synagogue having a "a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up". Jesus heals her, loosing her from her infirmity. A squabble rises because it was done on the sabbath, and Jesus says "16So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”

I'm not trying to give a bible study, but only personal thoughts; I have no insight that would reveal the nature of the spirit world. But it seems to me that the spirit that possessed Lee was one of making a business out of the things of God, which involved setting himself up as someone special and unique and holding special powers from God. Peter ran across a similar person/spirit in Acts 8, and Paul in Acts 13 with Bar-Jesus. It would seem to me that if Minoru feels he has the spirit of Lee, that he is being possessed with that thinking he is someone special, with an overwhelming desire to make merchandise of God's word and God's people.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

...I'm not trying to give a bible study, but only personal thoughts; I have no insight that would reveal the nature of the spirit world. But it seems to me that the spirit that possessed Lee...

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

But what was the overwhelming motivation that led WL to even set himself up as a deputy authority and insist that his speaking was the word, and demand that all local churches accept his authority and LSM? Why would a little bible preacher, who did such a great job establishing the "local" church, and the recovery of the church wreck what he worked so hard to establish. What was that motivating force, what drove him to turn his back on such faithful servants of the Lord as John Ingalls? In my view, what was the work of the Lord to establish scriptural assemblies- something that hasn't been practiced in over 1700 years was destroyed by this motivation (and of course, by all who played along with it).

And now Minoru says he has the same spirit.
And now Minoro feels he has the same spirit

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

It's a reality that there actually are demonic spirits everywhere...around every corner...? Maybe?

From NTA: "The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of demons any more than it attempts to prove the existence of God. It simply reports on their activities as if its readers accepted their existence. Nor did the early church fathers have a problem with the reality and personality of demons. ...

"But we need not fear Satan and his demons as long as you cling to God's truth. Their only weapon is deception." Our only weapon is truth and its power to dispel the darkness.

NTA's books educate people to the reality of the spirit world and report on the possibility of their activity in our lives. The Bondage Breaker does emphasize that he is not looking for demons around every corner. It would be a good idea not to give up on the book. Many people have been helped with the light NTA brought to the subject, myself included. He emphasizes truth as the only weapon against deception and it is the tactic of Satan and his minions to deceive, as we first saw in Gen. 3.

Nell

[Nell]

This video by Neil T. Anderson will put things in perspective as an alternative to the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, his answers are excellent.

Nell

[UntoHim]

The simple truth is that Minoru is just like all of us....or I should say like many of us use to be. Many of us were captivated by a wonderful vision - Christ and the church. Any thoughts of Asian/Chinese culture, much less any intricate guanxi network, were the farthest thing from our hearts and minds. Everything was so simple - just love the Lord, the saints, and of course - and above all - the church. "God's eternal purpose" guided our every thought, motive and action. What else was worth sacrificing all or our time, energy and emotion for? What else was worth abandoning jobs, careers, friends and even family? Many of us were young and in love - literally babes in the faith, and decidedly blind as a bat in love.

So what happened? Why does Minoru Chen seem so out of touch with the truth, and even reality? Why does he still vehemently deny what all of us now see as plain as day? How is it that speaking the words "I am filled with brother Lee's spirit" seem so offensive, and even patently unchristian to us today? Who changed? Who moved away from "Christ and church"? Well, let me tell you, it is not Minoru who has moved away. He is still there right where we left him - a devout follower of the person and work of Witness Lee. He is still speaking the same language, the same vocabulary. If we are honest with ourselves, back in the day, Minoru's speaking would have been very normal to us. In fact, we would have probably stood up after the message and testified loudly and strongly "Amen! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Oh, Lord Jesus, I too am filled with Witness Lee's spirit!"

My brothers and sisters, there is indeed "a spirit" at work here. It is the very same spirit that has been at work in the Local Church of Witness Lee/Watchman Nee since the beginning. This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the initiation of the "New Way". This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the late 70s during the Max Rapaport/young people fiasco, or when LSM started charging $50 for us to sit in those hard plastic seats for 30 training messages twice a year. This spirit did not just suddenly appear in the move from Elden Hall to Anaheim, or when the Daystar debacle robbed many of the saints of their life savings. This spirit did not just suddenly appear when Witness Lee lied to us gullible Americans by telling us he was leaving a blessed and fruitful work in Taiwan to "bring the Lord's Recovery to the top Christian country on earth". Shall I go on? Shall I relate the multiple testimonies of brothers and sisters in the Far East who could tell us about this spirit at work from the earliest days in mainland China? If Dr. Lily Hsu was willing, I'm sure she could testify and confirm - for now we can just read and weep over the pages of her testimony in My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Does the fact that this spirit has been at work among the leadership in the Local Church movement negate or nullify all the wonderful and glorious things the Lord was able to do in and among us? Well I would say that it neither negates nor nullifies any more than the Children of Israel's disobedience and worship of false God's negated or nullified the promises made to Abraham all those thousands of years ago. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob blessed and multiplied despite all the sins and despite all the wickedness. Sometimes, many times, maybe even most of the time, God blesses and multiplies not because of man's faithfulness or dutifulness, but in spite of it. And many times he has poured out his Spirit despite our unfaithfulness and despite our sinfulness. In the case of the Local Church, he has poured out a measure of his Spirit and his blessing despite the fact that another spirit has been allowed to work among them. Yes, may God have mercy on us all.
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[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

This video by Neil T. Anderson will put things in perspective as an alternative to the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, his answers are excellent.

Nell

Thanks for posting this, Nell. I thought about ordering Andersons' book you referenced earlier but had not, and this interview gives great insight to what he is believing and speaking. I haven't listened to the whole thing but what I have is great and I am in agreement with. His topic pertains to a member of my family.....just thank you for this link.

[byHismercy]

I feel a lot of frustration with Minoru for misleading the saints with his spiritism, or whatever you would like to label it. It is simply wrong. This morning we read the first few chapters of Matthew and I was really excited to 'see' the trinity at Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist. The Spirit of God came down and lit upon Jesus like a dove, the heavens opened, God the Father spoke of His beloved Son, in Whom He is well pleased. All three were present. Later it was allowed that the Spirit led Jesus away to be tempted of the devil, who quoted scripture to the Lord, using Gods' word to tempt and test Him. This account of Jesus response shows us scripture being fulfilled, which is wonderful and necessary.

I hope and pray that you are wrong, UntoHim. (Regarding saints then or now saying amen to Minorus' statement) My prayer is for the saints currently inside the Recovery to be so deeply offended in spirit, as I feel, at this presentation by Minoru of Lees' spirit, that many would turn away from this ministry, many would walk away, now. My prayer is for the veil to be lifted from their faces regarding the spirit they are partaking of, there.

The only God they need to look to was there at Jesus' baptism. Every other spirit is the wrong road, the wrong way, if their goal is God in Christ Jesus. Lord Jesus, lift the veil, have mercy, on every soul in TLR.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

It's a reality that there actually are demonic spirits everywhere...around every corner...? Maybe?

From NTA: "The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of demons any more than it attempts to prove the existence of God. It simply reports on their activities as if its readers accepted their existence. Nor did the early church fathers have a problem with the reality and personality of demons. ...

"But we need not fear Satan and his demons as long as you cling to God's truth. Their only weapon is deception." Our only weapon is truth and its power to dispel the darkness.

NTA's books educate people to the reality of the spirit world and report on the possibility of their activity in our lives. The Bondage Breaker does emphasize that he is not looking for demons around every corner. It would be a good idea not to give up on the book. Many people have been helped with the light NTA brought to the subject, myself included. He emphasizes truth as the only weapon against deception and it is the tactic of Satan and his minions to deceive, as we first saw in Gen. 3.

Nell

And this is the thing- you may appreciate NA and I may not find his book helpful, but to insist that an assembly accept, be bound by NA’s teaching as the only true, up to date speaking is way off the mark. The New Way insisted that all accept WL/LSM or else! It was a move that was totally divisive. I should appreciate you, and you me because we are in Christ- fellow believers. A ministry should not define the relationship of the saints. I would think someone like Minoru would take a long look at how LSM took over control of the LCs and what damage it has done to the saints and the testimony and standard the Churches should hold, and speak out against it. But instead, to say he is full of WLs spirit is to continue to damage and mislead the saints. It seems to me that he is gunning to be the new deputy authority- the whole blended bro thing has got to be running out of steam. How does anyone read the scripture and think it has any validity?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

And this is the thing- you may appreciate NA and I may not find his book helpful, but to insist that an assembly accept, be bound by NA’s teaching as the only true, up to date speaking is way off the mark.

Box,

I agree, but your leaping mischaracterization above is absurd. Or was that your point?

The spirit world is real. It's interesting that there is so much resistance to a discussion of that reality. Educate yourself or not, but whatever you do, don't read NTA and don't watch his video.

Nell

[byHismercy]

Nell, I think Bjb was drawing a parallel, as an example, how ridiculous it would be to expect ALL believers to adhere to NTAs teachings.....as LSM does Lee. We know you are not saying such a thing. Btw, I finished listening to the video and I love this brother in Christ! What a neat believer....I thank you again for the mention and I am gonna read his book. I found him to be right on the mark. I had heard his name but never have read anything by him, nor heard him speak.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

My brothers and sisters, there is indeed "a spirit" at work here. It is the very same spirit that has been at work in the Local Church of Witness Lee/Watchman Nee since the beginning. This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the initiation of the "New Way".

I’ve often wished I and all the saints had the same zeal for the church-and all things of the truth as Paul the apostle had, but the way and the desire is to be filled with the Holy Spirit, not full of another man’s spirit and particularly a dead man’s, including Paul’s

My recollection of things was that the New Way was a departure from the old way. In the old way, not everyone and all the churches, and leading ones were totally on board with WL. Yes, you are correct that that “spirit” was manifested in WL in the 70’s, and most leaders and wannabes latched onto his coattails, but it seems to me that by the mid-80’s when he completed his Recovery Version, that the trainings and to some extent his usefulness would be waning. That would not be good for the business revenue stream. There was already grumbling from some leaders and some churches not being onboard, and he started berating them. Then came the New Way, which was a whole new load of reprocessed messages into life/truth lesions etc, and the whole door knocking marketing scheme. I left by the time the FTT got geared up, but another way to market and sell more products. That whole thing must have run it’s course by now, and my suspicion is that someone in that Blended cabal needs to be the New Exclusive Mr Big to start a new type of revenue flow. Who better than Minoru Chen? This of course is just speculation on my part. The children remember the grandfather, but to the next generation, the grandfather is just a story figure. The LCs are at that next generation thing and the LSM needs a new face.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

Box,

I agree, but your leaping mischaracterization above is absurd. Or was that your point?

The spirit world is real. It's interesting that there is so much resistance to a discussion of that reality. Educate yourself or not, but whatever you do, don't read NTA and don't watch his video.

Nell

Sorry Nell, I didn’t mean to offend you, I was just making parallel as byHismercy points out. I think discussing the spirit world would be interesting, but maybe move that topic to the alternative site? rather than get off on a tangent here.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Sorry Nell, I didn’t mean to offend you, I was just making parallel as byHismercy points out. I think discussing the spirit world would be interesting, but maybe move that topic to the alternative site? rather than get off on a tangent here.

Box, thanks for clarifying. I'm not offended. I thought you were serious.

There is a "Spiritual Warfare" topic on the main board. With Minoru's reveal, I think it's totally appropriate on this topic. I'll continue there.

Nell