Minoru Chen is filled with Witness Lee's spirit?

[UntoHim]

aron,
For the sake of our readers could you please give us a few lines of explanation on what a guanxi network is, and how it may apply to the leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee?
-

[Nell]

Aron, I did some reading on "guanxi". I don't understand how this relates to MC's statements on his belief that he is "filled with Witness Lee's spirit." Maybe you could connect those dots while you're at it.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Aron, I did some reading on "guanxi". I don't understand how this relates to MC's statements on his belief that he is "filled with Witness Lee's spirit." Maybe you could connect those dots while you're at it.

Nell

I knew I was gonna get myself in trouble, I just knew it...

Witness Lee led the charge to extol WN as the "Seer of the Divine Revelation". In this, WL was punching his own meal ticket. And, this is crucial, the meal ticket to the Chinese is not just them but the family as well. WL not only provided resources for himself, but his ne'er-do-well sons also. In the guanxi network, there's a web of reciprocal payments, or favors, or debts, supplying the member with obligations and benefits, and crucially, centered on immediate kin. Thus, Philip Lee got a job, for which he was completely unsuited, and which caused much distress. But the Church, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, got second place to WL's guanxi network. Philip and Timothy got first place.

And the holding power of the network is that the reciprocal ties are binding, no matter how unbiblical, unspiritual. Once rejected, there's no reconciliation. DYL and TC won't make nice with the Blendeds, because they can't, that's the guanxi rule, just like WL & those ejected under his aegis. The power of the guanxi network is that even if it violates the scripture, common sense, the gospel, and the conscience, one's bound by it and to it. Outside the guanxi network is the unthinkable void.

Okay, what does that have to do with MC being filled with WL's spirit? MC was building his own guanxi nest within WL's guanxi nest. MC promoted WL to the uttermost, even with words of heresy(!), yet this was merely his positioning within the larger network, just as WL before him. Do you think MC pays for a cab ride to the airport? I doubt it. Where I was meeting, there was always an airport escort for the Blended - some single brothers would get tagged to go and pick up the visiting dignitary from Anaheim. Why? Because they extolled WL to the uttermost, so they got elevated position. Free cab rides. Among other perks. Like a poster here said, MC is a bright guy, and doesn't speak without some considered reason.

So "orthodoxy", for all its supposed weight and care, gets tossed if the guanxi network is at stake. If MC didn't get payback in this age, he'd never do it. If you don't get what I am saying, consider this: after all the messages that WL gave on the Kingdom, the Body and the Spotless Bride, after all that, he gave it all over to his reprobate son, to soil with his feet. Because the son was at the core of the guanxi network. The Kingdom and the Body and the Bride were props, resources to be exploited and extracted for the network. That's just how it works. The Kingdom and the Body and the Bride were just content for messages to be printed and sold, managed by "the office". Along with socks and ties and chairs and tennis rackets. Calendars and coffee mugs.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by aron

I knew I was gonna get myself in trouble, I just knew it...

Okay, what does that have to do with MC being filled with WL's spirit? MC was building his own guanxi nest within WL's guanxi nest. MC promoted WL to the uttermost, even with words of heresy(!), yet this was merely his positioning within the larger network, just as WL before him.
mugs.

Thankyou aron, for getting yourself into trouble! It resulted in a very good and relevant post that is helpful to all reading this thread and identifies the dynamic at work behind the surface.

To sum up your post, it is a deeper level insight into how traditional, pagan Chinese culture operated. I can also see from it how ancestor worship and guanxi networking, work together. No better qualification for being on the inside track than to claim the endorsement/ accolades from those departed senior authorities in the ‘family’ group.

No doubt the rejection and villainization of the enemy, identified as 'outer' Christianity, must play its part in the schema too. It will be a necessary component of holding this structure of operating in place.

MC is posturing himself…a new term out there is ‘virtue signaling’ …. which seems to fit well with this effort of his as he carefully claims he is ‘hiding in the body’ so that he looks suitably humble, while at the same time, hinting of his greatness and suitability for promotion! Predictably, double-speak in operation.

I want to further comment on the audacity of mixing taoism with Christianity in such a blatant way.

How can such an ‘intelligent man’ be so sloppy, undisciplined and careless in his ‘speaking’, indulging his own practice, words and attitudes with such an opening to pagan religious ideas? In this there is a useful lesson for us all to notice.

Criticizing others as a way of excusing or denying one’s own faults comes with a great side-effect. It is elevating self at the cost of the targeted fall guy. Like a teeter-totter, push one side down and it automatically causes the other side to go up!! Pushing the other down, elevates self. Then with this false assurance, and focus on the other as the ‘bad guy’, a person spends that reflective thinking on someone he’s not responsible to God for, and misses spending that energy on contemplating that who he/she is responsible before God, (their self). The tempering and humbling exercise of self-discovery is side-stepped. The person has a false sense of his own perfection, continually beefed up as he forms the habit of increasing his perception of the faults of the ‘other’. Developing a need to keep criticizing to feed and sustain the identity of their self.

Without the tempering, reflective, responsibility taking, adjusting and humbling components, they are left with whatever feels right is what they go with. The flesh, generational religious and social baggage, all presented unredeemed and careless. Fine within their system as all correction and critical thinking has been successfully squashed.
Not OK with God, or the reality that exists outside of their artificially sustained internal world.

It's far and away off the track, and I believe that to be the dynamic behind it. according to writings here, and my own experience with LCers, it appears that all correction in the LC seems to be directed towards the ‘little potatoes’ and comes with the side-dish of deliberate humiliation, designed to make humility and confession a terrifying experience and one to be avoided. This spreads the need to persecute wrong outside of self, as there is no dignity in humility from within this system. Those up in the system displacing their own shame onto others more vulnerable than themselves. please correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I am but don't see the evidence. I shudder to think of the further reaching consequences of this type of system, on people. Frankly it makes normal denominations seem comparatively heavenly!!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

I believe that to be the dynamic behind it. according to writings here, and my own experience with LCers, it appears that all correction in the LC seems to be directed towards the ‘little potatoes’ and comes with the side-dish of deliberate humiliation, designed to make humility and confession a terrifying experience and one to be avoided. This spreads the need to persecute wrong outside of self, as there is no dignity in humility from within this system. Those up in the system displacing their own shame onto others more vulnerable than themselves. please correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I am but don't see the evidence.

Yes, displaced shame is the currency of the realm. Newbies are seduced by its perceived benefits - "Nobody is enjoying God the way we do! We're on the proper ground! Etc!" - but eventually the screws turn.

I pointed to guanxi because it has deep historical roots and has explanatory power. It seemed odd that WL meekly allowed his sons to damage what he'd worked so hard to build, until one sees that he built his guanxi for his family. To him it wasn't odd at all - it was necessary.

And I keep bringing up the succouring of the poor, and its consistent stress in the NT, to highlight the variance with LC practice. To them, it doesn't build guanxi.

More to the point, I noticed that Americans would dump their non-LC family members, but Chinese would not. Jesus had taught to "hate your father and mother" that wouldn't go along, and "Who is my father and mother and brother and sister" (Mark 3:35; Matt 12:49,50), but to the LC Chinese (by and large) these verses didn't exist, because they couldn't exist. The guanxi wouldn't allow it.

When one sees MC positioning himself within the context of WL's guanxi, it makes sense. Orthodoxy is secondary, even irrelevant.

[Nell]

Aron. You might as well go ahead and change your moniker to “Trouble”.

In the current context, carried to its ultimate conclusion, it appears that we of the American mindset, LC or not, are just a bunch of rubes. The “American mindset” for me is dominated by the gospel of Jesus Christ, first and foremost.

Would you say that, I’ll call it “Chinese Socialism”, as you and Curious have described, is dominant in the Chinese culture, or IS the Chinese culture, and takes precedence over every other “mindset” including the gospel of Jesus Christ?

This is still rattling around, but you and Curious have explained what’s going on in a way that makes sense. It seems that we may have been fighting the wrong battle.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Would you say that, I’ll call it “Chinese Socialism”, as you and Curious have described, is dominant in the Chinese culture, or IS the Chinese culture, and takes precedence over every other “mindset” including the gospel of Jesus Christ?

The short answer is, "Yes".

The longer answer is, every culture has its own norms and ways, many tacit and unspoken, even subconscious and unnoticed by its constituents. The Chinese tilts to the collective where the American way is more to the individual. (Think of 'Clint Eastwood' or 'the Lone Ranger' as expressions of ingrained American biases.)

Guanxi network building is a way to make one's nest within the Chinese-centric LC collective, but it also reinforces the norms of that collective, and points to a "Normal Christian Church Life" that's normal only to cultural filters used by WN and WL. Like I said earlier, ask them to "remember the poor, which we were eager to do", as per the apostles with Paul in Gal 2:10, and local churchers stare blankly. That verse simply doesn't exist for them - it can't. They can read the NT repeatedly and they'll skip that verse every time (I could have used others, but chose Galatians 2 as an example).

But for Blended MC, guanxi with its obligations and benefits is normal, like breathing. It just is... like asking a fish, "are you wet?" The fish doesn't have a concept of "not wet" to consider. And we're all like that, really... partly sighted, partly blinded by our native (received) culture.

I read a bit about Watchman Nee's family, as told by a great-niece. She was talking about her father, Watchman Nee's nephew, how he was poorly treated for his Christian faith. In one scene, she described crowds dragging him out of his house, beating him, spitting on him, pulling his hair, calling him "counter-revolutionary" and so forth. (The Chinese are very good at public shaming.) What the niece didn't mention was that Chinese Christians, once in power, may use shaming tactics similar to those used on her late father, to protect THEIR guanxi collective. A trait may be "normal" only to them, but they don't see that. And what's challenging about Chinese culture in particular is how deeply-rooted in millennia-old pre-literate traditions it is. American culture by contrast is recent, superficial, and obvious - in a word, it can be crude - and the Chinese is ancient and refined by hundreds of generations of practice.*

That's perhaps why the Lord prayed, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." That prayer is for all, like, "forgive us (Chinese, Americans, Jews, Russians, Poles) our trespasses, even as we forgive those (Chinese, Americans, Jews, Russians, Poles) who trespass against us." The prayer works for everyone, but one must see the need, and use (apply) it.

Jesus Christ alone has the Sight. He alone is the Light. And he's the Light of the World (Chinese, Americans, Jews, Russians, Poles).

Originally Posted by Nell

In the current context, carried to its ultimate conclusion, it appears that we of the American mindset, LC or not, are just a bunch of rubes.

You're not alone, so don't feel bad. Those running the Keswick Convention were bowled over by WN, the inscrutable Oriental who spoke like Madame Guyon's young cousin. (and some of WN's critiques of European/American church practices were on point).

(* I don't think that culture is of itself "fallen" or "evil". The NT identifies "many tribes and tongues and nations", each presumably with its own native peculiarities. But one must see cultural traits for what they are, and what they're not[!!] or they'll cause deep harm. Unrecognised parent culture distorts one's vision and subsequent voyage).

[Curious]

Yes, Nell I agree thoroughly with you. And others for posting their experiences here.

Originally Posted by aron

It seemed odd that WL meekly allowed his sons to damage what he'd worked so hard to build, until one sees that he built his guanxi for his family. To him it wasn't odd at all - it was necessary....

More to the point, I noticed that Americans would dump their non-LC family members, but Chinese would not. Jesus had taught to "hate your father and mother" that wouldn't go along, and "Who is my father and mother and brother and sister" (Mark 3:35; Matt 12:49,50), but to the LC Chinese (by and large) these verses didn't exist, because they couldn't exist. The guanxi wouldn't allow it.

I want to add to what aron has said about the guanxi network and WL’s nest building for the unregenerate family members if his own family. Contrast this to the requirement the LSM puts on young people to reject their own families in order to become fully participant in the LC, if the family is not interested in joining too.

So, he was ok with promoting the most destructive and painful of experiences for a family, happy to smash and destroy other people's lives in order to build his own family on the backs of those he drew in. This just makes me angry on a deep level, in fact I struggle to find words to express my abhorrence. (I’m now angry with a dead person, does that make me the same as MC only from an opposite angle??)

This is outright evil in action. Interesting aron you say this is something ordinary Americans are more willing to do than those of the Chinese community. They just ignore those scriptures, yet it was a Chinese member that began hinting to me about separating myself from my family as ‘bad company destroys good morals’ he/she quoted that scripture, with no knowledge at all of my family.

Saul was in rebellion against the law of God when he consulted the medium regarding Samuel. The real problem was he was dependant on Samuel and not God. Seeking Samuel after he died was the indication of that. The underlying sin was that Saul was putting too much reliance on a man and not God. Keeping returning to Samuel for guidance even after his departure from this life is the very same problem with the LC. They keep seeking WL and WN. All their focus reveals this, from exclusivity on all their written words, down to MC claiming continuing validation from WL until now.

The callous disregard for ‘family’ of the menial class of the LCM, while at the same time building one’s own family empire on the back of a sacrifice they require from those joining so that they can do the opposite with their own families, regardless of their spiritual standing…..wow, that one really takes the cake. I makes me sick to think of that, that it is real, the damage done and still doing.

Philip Lee was really only doing the same as he saw his father do. Though without the status of his father he just used a different means of exploitation, one that suited him as a young man full of testosterone!!

Appalling, I know who are the real ones who need some shaming!! And they pick on someone for being nervous and messing up some words while reading out loud? What is their standard, as there’s nothing against that in the 10 commandments?! (Their theology just falls apart all over the place!) Doesn’t kindness and encouragement help those who feel nervous? Shaming someone in that situation is also evil, not surprisingly. Sickening, is what they are, truly. What do they have to say about this?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Curious

...The callous disregard for ‘family’ of the menial class of the LCM, while at the same time building one’s own family empire on the back of a sacrifice they require from those joining so that they can do the opposite with their own families, regardless of their spiritual standing…..wow, that one really takes the cake. I makes me sick to think of that, that it is real, the damage done and still doing. ...

Curious,

I don’t know if this is a prayer not, but my entire life I found myself saying “this doesn’t make sense”. I said this about people, events, and my Christian life. Over the years, I believe the Lord has answered my “this doesn’t make sense” prayer/s. So many things about the ministry of Lee didn’t make sense.

I was pressured to make a choice between going to meetings and caring for my elderly parents. I chose my parents. Looking back, this was a blessing to me. As hard as it was to take a stand against what I thought was the “true church”, I walked away and I was blessed.

My walk with the Lord didn’t end. My walk with the Lord grew and became stronger. It took awhile for the fog to clear, but clear it did and is still clearing.

Not only that, I was with my parents when they needed me most, and when I needed them most. My eyes were opened to many things, and my eyes are still being opened.

This, I didn’t see coming.

We were led to believe that abandoning our family was godly and part of His higher purpose. That is a lie. I always had a question about this teaching, was this the right thing to do, or how could it be “spiritual”, to abandon your family? How could this be what God wanted? This doesn’t make sense.

I was used. We all were used. We were playing one “game” but the other side was playing by “power rules”. Actually both sides were used. The game was rigged. Lee’s “ministry” is rigged. Witness Lee’s ministry: You walk away from your family but I get to keep mine. Do as I say, not as I do.

All who were loyal and faithful to Lee should reconsider. Listen to Minoru Chen’s words again. He honestly believes that the “spirit of Witness Lee lives in him”. How is this possible? It’s not even Christian. Read this topic from beginning to end. Pray. We were all deceived, not by Lee, not by Minoru, but by the father of lies. We know who we are wrestling against and it’s not against each other.

Now we know.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

aron,
For the sake of our readers could you please give us a few lines of explanation on what a guanxi network is, and how it may apply to the leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee?
-

In my last post I really attempted to answer ByHisMercy on this topic of hiding identities using today's media as an example, but my post was edited/deleted.

I figured my example was more readily understandable to typical Americans than some obscure "guanxi network," which is totally foreign to our culture.

Best of luck, aron. After reading your many posts on this subject, the best I can say to describe the "guanxi network," is "hive mentality." Perhaps I am way off the mark, though.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my last post I really attempted to answer ByHisMercy on this topic of hiding identities using today's media as an example, but my post was edited/deleted.

I figured my example was more readily understandable to typical Americans than some obscure "guanxi network," which is totally foreign to our culture.

Best of luck, aron. After reading your many posts on this subject, the best I can say to describe the guanxi network," is "hive mentality." Perhaps I am way off the mark, though.

It is a culturally-sourced web of mutual obligations. WL 'owed' his progeny to feast at the LC trough. RK and MC 'owed' WL fealty, praise, dedication. And the LC saints 'owed' MC a cab ride to the airport. Everybody gets something.

But if you ask them to give something to the poor, who have no means to repay in this age, they look at you like you are crazy. The network doesn't work that way. It's not about the resurrection of the righteous, it's about getting mine, today. WN got his, WL got his, now MC is getting his.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my last post I really attempted to answer ByHisMercy on this topic of hiding identities using today's media as an example, but my post was edited/deleted.

I figured my example was more readily understandable to typical Americans than some obscure "guanxi network," which is totally foreign to our culture.

Best of luck, aron. After reading your many posts on this subject, the best I can say to describe the "guanxi network," is "hive mentality." Perhaps I am way off the mark, though.

Ohio,

I don’t think you’re off the mark at all. A “hive mentality”, a “collective”, a generationally established Chinese ancestral network (guanxi?), all seem to add up to one thing: a counterfeit Christian community. Of course, many, if not most of those in the Local Churches are true, born-again believers in Jesus. We know this.

The counterfeit? A ranking member with an apparent longstanding belief (and teaching his belief to others) that he is filled with the spirit of an “ancestor.” This is not only counterfeit but is heresy. Heresy that has apparently been taught openly in their meetings for quite some time by at least one “blended”.

The brilliance of it (a bad brilliance) seems to be that both sides of the matter, LC v. Former members, are left to duke it out over Lee’s flawed and failed “ministry” and its bad fruit. This is an argument that can, and probably will, never be resolved. This is a symptom of the real problem.

We can thank Minoru Chen for pulling back the curtain on the real problem...”the hive”. Curious connected these dots for us, as did you. As did Aron. We have been fighting the wrong battle. Witness Lee’s flawed and failed “ministry” pale in comparison to the undercurrent of the hive. Witness Lee’s ministry was/is only a vehicle to achieve an end...an end that seemingly has little to do with building the church.

What then? One possibility, in his Old Way v. New Way topic, BoxJoBox told us about this:
“I looked the other day at their IRS 990T for 2018 and their asset book value of $100.7 million- I guess their business model works for them.“ (And they can’t refund the $$$ their Daystar investors lost!!!!)

So what is the LSM? A front company for the hive? What is Witness Lee’s “ministry”? A false flag?

Whatever is genuine in this whole matter is genuine because of God’s mercy; whatever is genuine is because of God’s anointing of his Word and the truth of his Word. There has no doubt been genuine and rich and eternal blessings poured out by God Himself. God blesses his people as he has done for centuries before Lee and his “family business” came on the scene. (The “family business”has new meaning, doesn’t it?)

My walk with the Lord really began when I heard the brothers sharing in the meetings in the early days. They were sharing the truth of God’s word that rings to this day. What came after those early days, I remember only as a lot of words. Repetitious hollow words.

So I guess now I’m in as much trouble, if not more, than Aron. It’s making sense to me.

Nell

PS: I’d like to read your example on “today’s media”.

[Boxjobox]

I was reading today in Luke- the beloved physician, Luke 13, where he writes about a woman in the synagogue having a "a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up". Jesus heals her, loosing her from her infirmity. A squabble rises because it was done on the sabbath, and Jesus says "16So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”

I'm not trying to give a bible study, but only personal thoughts; I have no insight that would reveal the nature of the spirit world. But it seems to me that the spirit that possessed Lee was one of making a business out of the things of God, which involved setting himself up as someone special and unique and holding special powers from God. Peter ran across a similar person/spirit in Acts 8, and Paul in Acts 13 with Bar-Jesus. It would seem to me that if Minoru feels he has the spirit of Lee, that he is being possessed with that thinking he is someone special, with an overwhelming desire to make merchandise of God's word and God's people.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

...I'm not trying to give a bible study, but only personal thoughts; I have no insight that would reveal the nature of the spirit world. But it seems to me that the spirit that possessed Lee...

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

But what was the overwhelming motivation that led WL to even set himself up as a deputy authority and insist that his speaking was the word, and demand that all local churches accept his authority and LSM? Why would a little bible preacher, who did such a great job establishing the "local" church, and the recovery of the church wreck what he worked so hard to establish. What was that motivating force, what drove him to turn his back on such faithful servants of the Lord as John Ingalls? In my view, what was the work of the Lord to establish scriptural assemblies- something that hasn't been practiced in over 1700 years was destroyed by this motivation (and of course, by all who played along with it).

And now Minoru says he has the same spirit.
And now Minoro feels he has the same spirit

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

It's a reality that there actually are demonic spirits everywhere...around every corner...? Maybe?

From NTA: "The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of demons any more than it attempts to prove the existence of God. It simply reports on their activities as if its readers accepted their existence. Nor did the early church fathers have a problem with the reality and personality of demons. ...

"But we need not fear Satan and his demons as long as you cling to God's truth. Their only weapon is deception." Our only weapon is truth and its power to dispel the darkness.

NTA's books educate people to the reality of the spirit world and report on the possibility of their activity in our lives. The Bondage Breaker does emphasize that he is not looking for demons around every corner. It would be a good idea not to give up on the book. Many people have been helped with the light NTA brought to the subject, myself included. He emphasizes truth as the only weapon against deception and it is the tactic of Satan and his minions to deceive, as we first saw in Gen. 3.

Nell