How Much To Throw Out?

[HERn]

Does anyone know the topic or title of the winter training?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

Does anyone know the topic or title of the winter training?

The training was on Exodus. What I collect from various posts that I've seen of Facebook, it was on the second half of Exodus.

The speaking of the blendeds probably went something like this: When we come to the second half of Exodus we need to see the intrinsic significance of all the types that other Christians don't see, because they don't have a heart for God's economy....

I'm sure you get the picture. I'm so glad that I don't waste my time, money and vacation time with those week long indoctrination sessions.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The training was on Exodus... "When we come to the second half of Exodus we need to see..."

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

Oh the vivid flashbacks of those splendid "oohs and aahs" coming from the front row Blendeds as our beloved MOTA launched into yet another of his high peak rants ...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

Yes, another example of speaking a lot of words to say very little with the intent of trying to get you out of your spirit and into your mind.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

During my days of deception I used to rave with my LC brothers saying "who can speak these kind of things?" and "how rich is the ministry".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

During my days of deception I used to rave with my LC brothers saying "who can speak these kind of things?" and "how rich is the ministry".

At the point in time where I became disillusioned with the LC, all the ranting and raving about the "richness" of WL's ministry really started to get to me. It occurred to me that if the LC were really so great, then there would be no need for people to constantly talk that way, that would just be a common understanding.

I am thoroughly convinced that LCers talk this way because they need the constant reinforcement that these "high peak" teachings actually mean something. WL's "high peak" can only be repackaged so many ways. I have to assume that the LC preys upon vulnerable young people who want to be made to feel that they have life all figured out. This keeps the momentum of WL's "high peak" going. The excitement of that should have died off along time ago, but it hasn't. I see all the posts on Facebook. After each of these trainings, there is talk about how the Lord has been moving and the "last revival" has been initiated to "end the age". It's actually kind of funny how this same supposed "revival" keeps happening over and over again. You would think that some members would get clued in to what is really going on.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I used to rave ... "who can speak these kind of things?"

Actually it's deceptively easy. Just take a few esoteric and/or spiritually-sounding words, mash them together observing a few rules of syntax "of", "for", and "the" and you're in business. Literally, in business; in the case of WL and crew, a long and successful business.

What strikes me at this point is that 500 years later we've come full circle, as it were: a human organization claims that it alone mediates between fallen and seeking humanity and its Creator and Redeemer God. And instead of Johann Tetzel saying "When the coin in the offering box rings, a soul to heaven springs" we have the merchandising of stilted catch-phrases from the Blendeds Wee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel

Just buy the brightly colored rainbow booklet, chant or sing or recite or pray or shout aloud the special words from God's Special Messenger, and you're enroute to empyrean realms. And all for just a dollar.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What strikes me at this point is that 500 years later we've come full circle, as it were: a human organization claims that it alone mediates between fallen and seeking humanity and its Creator and Redeemer God. And instead of Johann Tetzel saying "When the coin in the offering box rings, a soul to heaven springs" we have the merchandising of stilted catch-phrases from the Blendeds Wee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel

I suppose we also could consider those 16 points put together by the elders in Anaheim to replicate Luther's "95 Theses."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Actually it's deceptively easy. Just take a few esoteric and/or spiritually-sounding words, mash them together observing a few rules of syntax "of", "for", and "the" and you're in business.

In principle it's no different than people who speak using triple negatives. All the while trying to comprehend was just spoken, it's quite unnecessary.

[Unsure]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I suppose we also could consider those 16 points put together by the elders in Anaheim to replicate Luther's "95 Theses."

16 points?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unsure

16 points?

Was this during the so-called early 80's rebellion?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Was this during the so-called early 80's rebellion?

This is extracted from John Ingalls booklet, "Speaking the Truth in Love." See Appendix B for complete text.

SIXTEEN POINTS
August 28, 1988

As the day drew near for special fellowship with the church as we had announced, Godfred, Al and I (Anaheim Elders) came together for prayer and fellowship regarding the content of the coming gathering. We only knew that we needed to clear up some matters, and set a direction for the church, and we had been praying individually for guidance concerning the specific points that should be covered. I proposed to the brothers that we briefly expound a number of basic matters according to the Word of God that set forth the proper standing of the church, touching especially the aspects both of truth and practice that related to our current situation. The brothers consented. After some consideration we decided that I would cover eight points concerning the truth and Godfred would cover eight points regarding the practice; in conclusion Al would give a testimony of confirmation.

The appointed time arrived for the meeting. (Brother Lee meanwhile was in San Gabriel, meeting with the Chinese-speaking saints.) This time, we felt, was very crucial to our going on. There were over two hundred saints on hand, including some on the Chinese-speaking side who understood English (a good number considering our usual attendance). Brothers Minoru Chen and Philip Lin with the three of us sat together in the front. We launched into our burden and experienced much strengthening, release, and anointing. As contemplated, I covered the points concerning our standing related to the truth. This touched the following points (in a greatly abridged form):

1. Our standing in relation to the Word of God. It is our sole authority, our constitution, and we should check everything by it.
2. Our standing concerning the church. In this age the church is central and supreme; no other corporate body is recognized by the New Testament.
3. Concerning the genuine oneness. It is organic; it can never be organized or forced. Spiritual leaders should not divide us.
4. Concerning other Christians. We should never mock or belittle other Christians with an elitist attitude; rather, we should love, honor, and receive them all.
5. Concerning our vocation. It is to build up the Body of Christ, not any work or ministry.
6. Concerning our purpose or aim. It is to be the Lord’s testimony; we are not here for any work.
7. Concerning the ministry. It is the imparting of God into His people to produce the church. It is not the ministry of any one person; we all have a share in it.
8. Concerning the apostles. They are always plural, and there are a number of them on the earth today. We should not exalt any apostle or servant of God beyond what is written.

The full text of my points as well as Godfred’s plus Al’s testimony is included in the Appendix (see page 79, Appendix B).

I spoke honestly and frankly according to the solid principles revealed in the Word, which we had been taught and which we had believed and held for years, applying some of the points to our present situation. I was not aiming at Brother Lee. I was burdened to present the basic truths concerning our standing and correct some misconceptions held by the saints. The present need demanded that we touch specifically the matters which we addressed. I have heard Brother Lee repeat a number of times what he had been told by a brother. "These sixteen points are sixteen bullets aimed at you {Brother Lee}." That is not true. If anything hit him it is not because we were aiming at him.
Godfred followed and covered eight points regarding our practice:

1. In relation to church administration. It should be local, with no central control. The elders in each place should seek the Lord directly for his timely leading according to the need in their locality.
2. The Living Stream Ministry Office. It is a business office and has no authority over the church. As the church we disassociate ourselves from certain practices and conduct there that we find intolerable.
3. The Life Studies and Christian literature in general. We should never allow spiritual materials to become a crutch or replacement for the reading of the Bible. To insist upon reading only LSM material or to oppose the reading of LSM material is going to far.
4. The church book sales. We will continue this service, but we will no longer advertise or promote any books.
5. The semi-annual trainings. We will no longer interrupt our church life for the trainings. Anyone who wishes to attend the trainings should feel free to do so.
6. The other churches. We should respect and highly esteem all other churches, but we should not compel the church in our locality to practice like other churches.
7. Various practices. In all these matters we must practice generality. Any practice which is not sinful we should not oppose; neither should we impose it.
8. The gospel. There is no particular way to preach the gospel; any proper way is good.

Godfred spoke earnestly and to the point with a good spirit. He apologized to the church on our behalf for coming under the influence of external pressures in past years and not seeking the Lord’s leading directly according to the local need. He confessed to the saints on our behalf the promoting of an improper relationship with the LSM office, so that we declared our oneness with that office and thus associated ourselves with its conduct. The blame for that relationship, he said, must be borne by us elders, and not put on the doorstep of the office.

Godfred closed with this statement, which I want to quote in full: "Our reason for having this fellowship is not to vindicate anyone or to condemn anyone, or to do anything for ourselves. We are having this fellowship for the purpose of bringing us all back to the Lord Himself. He is our Head, He is our center; and He should be the entire unique content of the church life! We hope that the things we have briefly mentioned will clear up the past so that we all can go forward together positively as the church in our city." This was a fitting conclusion to the sixteen points.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi bro Terry,

I've been in a real local community church for over a year now and I can say that I have never experienced politics like I did in the local church. Before I left I was being pressured by three brothers (one an elder) to write a letter to RK about what was going on. Two brothers had already written a letter to RK, but I hand no heart to do it, although I did write a draft letter and showed it to an elder. He agreed with the letter but when I asked him to co-sign it with me he refused. I finally realized that several of the so-called elders were snakes so I just cut them off.

They probably know nothing would come of it. RK's a politician. On the old public square (www.thebereans.net) Norm relayed what happened in Michigan. He as a coworker appealed to Ron only to have it fall on deaf ears.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

They probably know nothing would come of it. RK's a politician. On the old public square (www.thebereans.net) Norm relayed what happened in Michigan. He as a coworker appealed to Ron only to have it fall on deaf ears.

It's worse than polyticks, it's the hipocrisy of the Pharisees.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is extracted from John Ingalls booklet, "Speaking the Truth in Love." See Appendix B for complete text.

SIXTEEN POINTS
August 28, 1988

As the day drew near for special fellowship with the church as we had announced, Godfred, Al and I (Anaheim Elders) came together for prayer and fellowship regarding the content of the coming gathering. We only knew that we needed to clear up matters, and set a direction for the church, and we'd been praying individually for guidance concerning the specific points that should be covered.

Why is it that the Anaheim elders, all hand-picked by WL and hard-core for his vision, got exiled for "rebellion"? Seeing the Anaheim case, and remembering how WN's hand-picked Shanghai Christian Assembly elders expelled him from fellowship, one wonders why this supposedly normal church structure is accompanied by so much turmoil.

There appears to be something about this particular system of 'Deputy God' authority and abject submission that leads inevitably to abuse and then crisis and collapse.

You know, Watchman Nee reminds me of Karl Marx: he looked at the system as it stood, and then told us it was hopelessly flawed, and proposed a blank-slate, start-all-over system which could cure all those ills. Instead of the Workers Paradise of Marx, Nee gave us the Glorious Church.

Both social systems, one economic and political in orientation, and one religious, were reactions to the failures of other systems, and both were significantly worse than the ills which they proposed to remedy.

Today, I'd rather deal with the Lutherans and Baptists and Anglicans. I admit and receive every critique of Lee and Nee and the Blendeds; all true, or mostly true. But they're still preferable, than dealing with the Local Church system.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Why is it that the Anaheim elders, all hand-picked by WL and hard-core for his vision, got exiled for "rebellion"? Seeing the Anaheim case, and remembering how WN's hand-picked Shanghai Christian Assembly elders expelled him from fellowship, one wonders why this supposedly normal church structure is accompanied by so much turmoil.

There appears to be something about this particular system of 'Deputy God' authority and abject submission that leads inevitably to abuse and then crisis and collapse.

You know, Watchman Nee reminds me of Karl Marx: he looked at the system as it stood, and then told us it was hopelessly flawed, and proposed a blank-slate, start-all-over system which could cure all those ills. Instead of the Workers Paradise of Marx, Nee gave us the Glorious Church.

Both social systems, one economic and political in orientation, and one religious, were reactions to the failures of other systems, and both were significantly worse than the ills which they proposed to remedy.

At first glance, the LC newcomer to this forum would scream sacrilege to place MOTA's and Marx's even in the same stadium.

But let's remember the wise old adage: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At first glance, the LC newcomer to this forum would scream sacrilege to place MOTA's and Marx's even in the same stadium.

But let's remember the wise old adage: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I think leaving the LC, for the average person, is a long process at least it was for me. For me it started with an offended conscience. I think God wants us to pay attention to our offended consciences. The false-teaching of LSM is that we should ignore an offended conscience even to the extent of covering up sin. This protects the leadership, but does not take adequate spiritual care of the sheep. Eventually, offended consciences become hardened, which allows brothers to become bullies and causes them to erupt in unreasonable anger and condemnation (there are accounts that some foamed at the mouth) when the ministry, LSM, LC, WL, WN, blended brothers, elders, deacons, etc. are questioned, criticized, or held accountable.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think leaving the LC, for the average person, is a long process at least it was for me. For me it started with an offended conscience. I think God wants us to pay attention to our offended consciences. The false-teaching of LSM is that we should ignore an offended conscience even to the extent of covering up sin. This protects the leadership, but does not take adequate spiritual care of the sheep. Eventually, offended consciences become hardened, which allows brothers to become bullies and causes them to erupt in unreasonable anger and condemnation (there are accounts that some foamed at the mouth) when the ministry, LSM, LC, WL, WN, blended brothers, elders, deacons, etc. are questioned, criticized, or held accountable.

With immediate family and maybe relatives meeting with the local churches, fully leaving hasn't happened yet for me. Still come into contact with brothers and sisters I knew in the local churches. Away from the LC setting, normal brothers and sisters. On Facebook you see family is more important to these ones than what the latest and greatest coming out of Anaheim is. More likely to see Facebook posts about food and coffee than anything ministry centered.

About the LC and LSM leadership, they don't want being called out, questioned, criticized, nor to be held accountable according to 1 Timothy 5:19-20

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

About the LC and LSM leadership, they don't want being called out, questioned, criticized, nor to be held accountable according to 1 Timothy 5:19-20

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

They have changed it from "...that the rest will be fearful of sinning" to "...that the rest will be fearful of speaking." In the LC and LSM leadership, the Great Commandment is to be one in speaking with Anaheim. If you do that, you have fulfilled all the LC law and prophets.

If something bothers your conscience, just remember the Great Commandment: be "one" with the brothers. If your speaking isn't "one" with the Blendeds latest, don't speak, period.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

If something bothers your conscience, just remember the Great Commandment: be "one" with the brothers. If your speaking isn't "one" with the Blendeds latest, don't speak, period.

Anyone who disputes this post of Aron's, please step forward. More often than not it's local church practice when one contradicts the blended's speaking.
Look what happened to Steve Isitt, Mario Sandoval, etc. If your conscience is bothered, don't make an issue of persons, matters, or things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think leaving the LC, for the average person, is a long process at least it was for me. For me it started with an offended conscience. I think God wants us to pay attention to our offended consciences. The false-teaching of LSM is that we should ignore an offended conscience even to the extent of covering up sin. This protects the leadership, but does not take adequate spiritual care of the sheep. Eventually, offended consciences become hardened, which allows brothers to become bullies and causes them to erupt in unreasonable anger and condemnation (there are accounts that some foamed at the mouth) when the ministry, LSM, LC, WL, WN, blended brothers, elders, deacons, etc. are questioned, criticized, or held accountable.

These are great points. Years ago I came to the conclusion that THE PROGRAM created bullies out of beloved brothers, based on all that I had witnessed.

LC leaders loved to promote spiritual "exercise" by standing up and shouting slogans or scripture, but the Bible tells us to "exercise, or train, ourself unto godliness." (I Timothy 4.7; Hebrews 5.14) They would promote some phony and contrived "godmanliving," but prevent the normal godly exercise of our conscience, an inward exercise unto godliness. Is not our conscience the leading part of our spirit? To exercise our spirit is to exercise our conscience.

Their exercise of the spirit in the meetings for public show is no different than the Pharisees praying on the street corners for show. During that Whistler kangaroo court to quarantine Titus Chu, one Blended said, "let's all stand and call on the Lord 5x." I about puked.

[HERn]

We just came back from our "one another" group where sang songs, read scripture, and prayed. We sang the sweetest song where we thanked the Father for sending His Son. I'm throwing out the lie that only in the LSM LCs is the Father praised.

[JJ]

My top three things to throw out and what to replace them with.

1) "I just need to turn to my spirit" or "turn to your spirit". Instead: "Turn our (or your) heart to the Lord (who is the Spirit).
2) Starting every meeting with a group "chant of "O Lord Jesus". Instead: Genuine prayer inspired by the Spirit
3) Holy Word for Morning Revival. Instead: Bible Verses (let's get back to basics!)

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

Hi JJ! Welcome! I've found that my feelings for the Lord are just as strong in church meetings outside the LC, and may even be more genuine. For a sect of Christianity that says it has no liturgy the LSM LCs have methods and a practice that is very similar everywhere. The elders meet twice a year where the practices mandated from the Blendeds are reinforced. My son was in the GLA where some different things were being practiced and the blindeds cut off an entire region. I might be wrong, but I think the LSM LSs are eventually going to implode as the more moderate saints who do not obey LSM and exalt WL leave. Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi JJ! Welcome! I've found that my feelings for the Lord are just as strong in church meetings outside the LC, and may even be more genuine. For a sect of Christianity that says it has no liturgy the LSM LCs have methods and a practice that is very similar everywhere. The elders meet twice a year where the practices mandated from the Blendeds are reinforced. My son was in the GLA where some different things were being practiced and the blindeds cut off an entire region. I might be wrong, but I think the LSM LSs are eventually going to implode as the more moderate saints who do not obey LSM and exalt WL leave. Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

Thanks, HERn. I agree. That's why I'm not there now. I do miss openly praying, calling a song, praising, testifying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit during the Lord's table though.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

Oops. I want to correct my post. I have not found anything like TLTM (the Lords Table Meeting) outside of TLR. Too bad the Lords Table meeting in The Lords Recovery doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

Sorry for the confusion!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

My top three things to throw out and what to replace them with.

1) "I just need to turn to my spirit" or "turn to your spirit". Instead: "Turn our (or your) heart to the Lord (who is the Spirit).
2) Starting every meeting with a group "chant of "O Lord Jesus". Instead: Genuine prayer inspired by the Spirit
3) Holy Word for Morning Revival. Instead: Bible Verses (let's get back to basics!)

Two more things to throw out and what to replace them with:

4) "Give up the world". Instead "Don't love the world" and see John's definition of the world in 1 John to understand what the world is.

5) "get out of your mind". Instead "use the mind of the Spirit, and "you have the mind of Christ".

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

Here is something not to throw out (quote see page 97 of "The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee, published by LSM:

"If in a given place anyone believes on the Lord, as a matter of course he is a constituent of the church in that place; there is no further step necessary in order to make him a constituent. No subsequent joining is required of him. Provided he belongs to the Lord, he already belongs to the church in that locality; and since he already belongs to the church, his belonging cannot be made subject to any condition. If, before recognizing a believer as a member of the church, we insist that he join us, we are immediately in an unscriptural position."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

That's been happening gradually. They (meaning those in the local churches) generally love those and include those who love the ministry. It's more ministry churches than it is local churches. LSM acolytes are getting older with much of the younger ones are ones raised in the local churches. Young people who don't have an appetite for the ministry will find themselves being neglected in lieu of young people who do have an appetite for the ministry. I've seen it happen. The neglected young people over time stop meeting with the local churches.
This is why my description of the LSM/LC is seen in Luke 6:32

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

I could come up with a list what qualities LSM acolytes look for in caring for the system.

• 100% for the ministry
• no criticisms
• no questions
• no concerns
• ignore your conscience
• speaking is 100% positive

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

Here is something not to throw out (quote see page 97 of "The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee, published by LSM:

"If in a given place anyone believes on the Lord, as a matter of course he is a constituent of the church in that place; there is no further step necessary in order to make him a constituent. No subsequent joining is required of him. Provided he belongs to the Lord, he already belongs to the church in that locality; and since he already belongs to the church, his belonging cannot be made subject to any condition. If, before recognizing a believer as a member of the church, we insist that he join us, we are immediately in an unscriptural position."

Nee made various statements such as this that would have provided balance had LC leaders took it into account. It's ironic how LC members gloss over certain things like this that Nee said.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Nee made various statements such as this that would have provided balance had LC leaders took it into account. It's ironic how LC members gloss over certain things like this that Nee said.

TC had all the GLA leaders read Nee's TNCCL back in the early 2000's. We read it in our elders meeting, and could not believe how far off things had become.

[HERn]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f4whBsh9ovI


This morning in a real local church meeting I worshiped and praised my Lord with more feeling than I ever had in the LSM-controlled LCs.

Chris Tomlin

He became sin, who knew no sin
That we might become His righteousness
He humbled himself and carried the cross

Love so amazing, love so amazing

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all

His body the bread, his blood the wine
Broken and poured out all for love
The whole earth trembled, and the veil was torn

Love so amazing, love so amazing, yeah

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all

All our hope is in You, all our hope is in You
All the glory to You, God, the light of the world

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all
--------------------------------------------------------
In the bible there is only the gospel. The false teaching of WL has created the so-called "high" and "low" gospel.

[TLFisher]

I've come to receive hymns composed by Chris Tomlin and other contemporary Christian composers as being God inspired. Though I know in the Local Churches, their God-inspired songwriting is criticized, ridiculed, etc as being "wordly", "fleshly", etc.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

I've come to receive hymns composed by Chris Tomlin and other contemporary Christian composers as being God inspired. Though I know in the Local Churches, their God-inspired songwriting is criticized, ridiculed, etc as being "wordly", "fleshly", etc.

Yes, me too.

I like the one HERn posted yesterday.

I do like and continue to sing quite a few TLR hymns and songs still. The one that starts with "Oh glorious Christ Savoir mine thou art truly radiance divine" is one. It would be good to make a new hymn and song book with bests and tossing worsts from TLR and elsewhere.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes, me too.

I like the one HERn posted yesterday.

I do like and continue to sing quite a few TLR hymns and songs still. The one that starts with "Oh glorious Christ Savoir mine thou art truly radiance divine" is one. It would be good to make a new hymn and song book with bests and tossing worsts from TLR and elsewhere.

I've thought the same thing, that it would be good to cull out all the misleading hymns...and even going through the RecV bible and getting rid of all the footnotes based on the error of WL's teaching, but that's too dangerous for me because I would be bringing in the false teaching and doctrine into my mind. I've spent the better part of 18 months trying to get that stuff out of my mind. To protect my mind l've decided that I'll never read or consider any of the writings of a man that others call the MOTA, apostle, or oracle of God, except of course the writings of Paul and the other NT writers.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

I've thought the same thing, that it would be good to cull out all the misleading hymns...and even going through the RecV bible and getting rid of all the footnotes based on the error of WL's teaching, but that's too dangerous for me because I would be bringing in the false teaching and doctrine into my mind. I've spent the better part of 18 months trying to get that stuff out of my mind. To protect my mind l've decided that I'll never read or consider any of the writings of a man that others call the MOTA, apostle, or oracle of God, except of course the writings of Paul and the other NT writers.

Being raised in the local church, there's been the thought tunes to scriptural songs was a LCM creation, but much to my surprise, it's not so.

Psalms 51:10-12
Psalms 19:7-11
Psalms 25:1-10

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I've thought the same thing, that it would be good to cull out all the misleading hymns...and even going through the RecV bible and getting rid of all the footnotes based on the error of WL's teaching, but that's too dangerous for me because I would be bringing in the false teaching and doctrine into my mind. I've spent the better part of 18 months trying to get that stuff out of my mind. To protect my mind l've decided that I'll never read or consider any of the writings of a man that others call the MOTA, apostle, or oracle of God, except of course the writings of Paul and the other NT writers.

Yes, I once "bought" the MOTA, the apostle, and the oracle of God monikers for Lee, because I got help from his ministry. But, they are simply un-scriptural and insulting to our Lord Jesus, who is the only "The" in these categories.
Amazing that we failed to follow the apostle Paul's exhortations to not form a sect around our favorite "apostle".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

Amazing that we failed to follow the apostle Paul's exhortations to not form a sect around our favorite "apostle".

Well, that follows into the double standards category. Others may do it, but we in the local churches don't follow any man.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

Being raised in the local church, there's been the thought tunes to scriptural songs was a LCM creation, but much to my surprise, it's not so.

Psalms 51:10-12
Psalms 19:7-11
Psalms 25:1-10

Yes I suspect that at least one motivation for WL to put the kibosh on psalm-singing was that some of the tunes were coming from dreaded Christianity, which by definition was incapable of enjoying God's moving Spirit.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I suspect that at least one motivation for WL to put the kibosh on psalm-singing was that some of the tunes were coming from dreaded Christianity, which by definition was incapable of enjoying God's moving Spirit.

Yes. I had visited a community church in Bellevue (a Bellevue brother I knew attended) and on that particular LDM the congregation was singing Psalms 51:9-12. One of my initial thoughts, "you mean LSM doesn't own the copyrights to this song?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

One of my initial thoughts, "you mean LSM doesn't own the copyrights to this song?"

In using older, (19th century and earlier) Christian music, LSM could promote its ties to the "rich heritage" of Christianity. Look, ma, we are orthodox! But if any recent Christian music were instituted, after Nee started writing hymns, then the "one trumpet" idea would be violated.

So Keith Green's melody to Psalm 51 - "create in me a clean heart" was very threatening to Lee (so I suppose).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Green

And "seek ye first the kingdom of God" was composed by a young woman who wanted to sing for Jesus. Maranatha Music used it on one of their first albums and it was a huge hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH8bV7rUVaU

When this kind of music began to make inroads into the LC, I daresay it was a concern. Christianity was supposed to be dead letters, traditions, and darkness. How could the spirit possibly move among them? But there it was, threatening LC hegemony on the Spirit.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

In using older, (19th century and earlier) Christian music, LSM could promote its ties to the "rich heritage" of Christianity. Look, ma, we are orthodox! But if any recent Christian music were instituted, after Nee started writing hymns, then the "one trumpet" idea would be violated.

So Keith Green's melody to Psalm 51 - "create in me a clean heart" was very threatening to Lee (so I suppose).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Green

And "seek ye first the kingdom of God" was composed by a young woman who wanted to sing for Jesus. Maranatha Music used it on one of their first albums and it was a huge hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH8bV7rUVaU

When this kind of music began to make inroads into the LC, I daresay it was a concern. Christianity was supposed to be dead letters, traditions, and darkness. How could the spirit possibly move among them? But there it was, threatening LC hegemony on the Spirit.

I think many LSM LC saints believe that there was no enjoyment of Christ after the NT time until WL.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think many LSM LC saints believe that there was no enjoyment of Christ after the NT time until WL.

Given some of the things that are heralded as "enjoyment of Christ," they may have been right. But in reality, there has always been joy in Christ. No one owns it.

[JJ]

The music issue being discussed in this thread is a good example of many unnecessary "straight jackets" in "the Lords Recovery" (TLR) that can be seen through by careful scripture reading. I suspect blindness to legalism versus nefarious motives in the earlier days of TLR. These were never washed out of the Living Stream Ministry. I have met a few TLR "saints" who listen to contemporary Christian music outside of the meetings. So, it is not universal.

It is hard to know what was in the heart of Witness Lee related to "kibash" on singing Psalms, but I'd like to offer this insight:

1) About 1981, when he was giving the "Summer Training" in Anaheim (those "messages" were compiled into the Life Study of 1 Corinthians), I remember him expressing frustration with the younger saints for singing so many songs with words from Psalms such as "His mercy endures forever". He said this not because that statement isn't true, but because New Testament (NT) believers have so much more of the truth that has been revealed in NT writings to praise God with. During the "Winter Training" that year, the Living Stream Ministry had quite a few young saints present new songs Lee had asked them to compose using exact words from 1 Corinthians, and in some cases Lee's footnotes and surprisingly modern music (to me).

2) Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music many times. And, piano and guitar were the only instruments I ever saw used in meetings. The longer I observed what was going on in the recovery (from inside and outside) for many years, I came to the conclusion that Lee had adopted many things from his Brethren experience, what he learned from Nee, and from many truly spiritual saints who came into "the recovery who had non-biblical legalism regarding music and many other things, and really didn't know any better. But, this is just conjecture (God knows the heart).

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by JJ

The music issue being discussed in this thread is a good example of many unnecessary "straight jackets" in "the Lords Recovery" (TLR) that can be seen through by careful scripture reading. I suspect blindness to legalism versus nefarious motives in the earlier days of TLR. These were never washed out of the Living Stream Ministry. I have met a few TLR "saints" who listen to contemporary Christian music outside of the meetings. So, it is not universal.

Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music many times. And, piano and guitar were the only instruments I ever saw used in meetings. The longer I observed what was going on in the recovery (from inside and outside) for many years, I came to the conclusion that Lee had adopted many things from his Brethren experience, what he learned from Nee, and from many truly spiritual saints who came into "the recovery who had non-biblical legalism regarding music and many other things, and really didn't know any better. But, this is just conjecture (God knows the heart).

Excellent observation JJ! Yes, I can testify that Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music. Actually he spoke rather strongly about not letting ANY "non-essential" divide the Church or the churches. The problem is that he ended up elevating many non-essentials - many teachings and practices established by himself - above the teachings and practices described and prescribed in the New Testament. To this very day, we see the affects of this in the teachings and practices in the Local Church.

-

[OBW]

And of course, the way to avoid having any division in the church is to give everyone a uniform, a schedule, and a defined group of "companions" with no deviation. Provide a ten-pound reference manual that is to be consulted on even the proper way to place socks in a drawer.

Perfect conformity will result in perfect unity. (Gag me with a spoon.) And those who will not conform must not be chosen by God, so their exit is expected and welcome. Only the true followers of the oracle of Lee should remain.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

2) Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music many times. And, piano and guitar were the only instruments I ever saw used in meetings. The longer I observed what was going on in the recovery (from inside and outside) for many years, I came to the conclusion that Lee had adopted many things from his Brethren experience, what he learned from Nee, and from many truly spiritual saints who came into "the recovery who had non-biblical legalism regarding music and many other things, and really didn't know any better. But, this is just conjecture (God knows the heart).

If Witness Lee was true to his Brethren background, there would be no piano, guitar, or any other musical instruments.
In regard to music, I think Lee didn't want any competition for his ministry. That is why we saw Howard Highashi's composing put to a stop. It wasn't until after his death did LSM began re-releasing hymns he composed.

[NewManLiving]

What about NYCYPCD songs? Very well done, orchestrated, Vessels of Mercy is one of my favorite CDs. Not all of them are ministry centered. A good deal are Christ-centered love/worship compositions. Apparently, if my memory serves me, a brother in New York is a music major - am I correct? I see him on YouTube. Appears to have other interests as well. They also have a radio station and app - Hymns Radio

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

What about NYCYPCD songs? Very well done, orchestrated, Vessels of Mercy is one of my favorite CDs. Not all of them are ministry centered. A good deal are Christ-centered love/worship compositions. Apparently, if my memory serves me, a brother in New York is a music major - am I correct? I see him on YouTube. Appears to have other interests as well. They also have a radio station and app - Hymns Radio

That reminds me that when I was in the recovery I liked the NYCYPCD (and other localities) much more than the LSM sponsored tapes which sounded stilted and too professional. Anymore I think that anything that LSM touches gets killed or deadened.

[NewManLiving]

I still use the RC Bible as I really do enjoy it - even the footnotes at times when I need a quick reference ( don't always agree with them ). Anyway I ordered the audio bible from them a couple of years ago. Could not listen for long. it seemed like the reader had no feelings one way or the other - very monotone - could have been because of the poor quality of the recording.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

That reminds me that when I was in the recovery I liked the NYCYPCD (and other localities) much more than the LSM sponsored tapes which sounded stilted and too professional. Anymore I think that anything that LSM touches gets killed or deadened.

I am still surprised that LSM didn't try to shut down NYCYPCD. Not that they could, but it seems like it would have been an easy target.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent observation JJ! Yes, I can testify that Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music. Actually he spoke rather strongly about not letting ANY "non-essential" divide the Church or the churches. The problem is that he ended up elevating many non-essentials - many teachings and practices established by himself - above the teachings and practices described and prescribed in the New Testament. To this very day, we see the affects of this in the teachings and practices in the Local Church.

-

The leaven of the Pharisees was to add to God's word things they thought one must do to please God, and wash the outside of the cup while leaving the inside full of dead things. The leaven of the Saducees was to not believe and preach the whole word (leaving out what they didn't like). The leaven of the brother in Corinth was to practice evil and boast about it.

What specific leaven can you say is the most important to purge out of "the lump" in TLR today?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I still use the RC Bible as I really do enjoy it - even the footnotes at times when I need a quick reference ( don't always agree with them ). Anyway I ordered the audio bible from them a couple of years ago. Could not listen for long. it seemed like the reader had no feelings one way or the other - very monotone - could have been because of the poor quality of the recording.

Yes, I also still use the RC Bible too, but not exclusively. I use Nestle's Greek interlinear and other versions (Blue Letter Bible and Bible Gateway, both on line, are fantastic to see how others have translated and commented on God's wonderful word).

There is no way God's word should be taken in a deadpan way..... too exciting (joy unspeakable and full of glory!).

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I am still surprised that LSM didn't try to shut down NYCYPCD. Not that they could, but it seems like it would have been an easy target.

I don't know anything about NYCPCD. Can you tell me what it is, and why it is so good?

[NewManLiving]

If I recall correctly, NYCYPCD (New York City Young People CD) is based in the Church In New York. Their earlier music was standard LC hymns or supplemental music ( when the supplement was around). Over the last couple of years they have become quite polished and have incorporated an orchestra. Those that play instruments are very good - even expert. I believe one of the ( elders ?) in NY arranges and coordinates their music ministry. They have kept the generic name NYCYPCD. They only released one CD under the the label Vessels of Mercy. I was so helped by this CD and noticed that they never played anything from it on their Hymns Radio. So I sent an e-mail asking why. Their response was that they (Vessels of Mercy) do not wish to be on the radio. However, the singers to me appear to be the same or a subset of those on the NYCYPCD so I do not know what is going on there. They never did release another CD under that label but continue to do so under the NYCYPCD label. You can find their music on ITunes , Google etc. much of it is on YouTube. The recent recordings are very good. You can create a playlist of some excellent worship and love songs for yourself and skip over the ministry songs. Although there are not all that many die-hard ministry songs

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

I don't know anything about NYCPCD. Can you tell me what it is, and why it is so good?

NewManLiving pretty much summed it up. I wouldn't say that the NYCYPCD music was my taste, but the quality of the arrangements was better than anything LSM put out. They also used instruments besides piano and guitar.

The music itself was acceptable for LCers as it didn't feature any strong rhythmic arrangements or things like electric guitar.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by JJ

What specific leaven can you say is the most important to purge out of "the lump" in TLR today?

Excellent question. After all these years out of the Movement (about 20yrs now) my observation and experience tells me that it is different things for different people. For one brother or sister the leaven may be certain practices, such as pray-reading or calling on the Lord, which actually may hinder their growth in the Lord. For another brother or sister it may be the inability to meditate on the Word without the use of "the ministry" or the RCV footnotes. For another it may be the inability to worship or receive anything significant from the Lord without being in a corporate setting.

Of course the most significant leaven, in my view, is the over estimation and appreciation for the person and work of Witness Lee. In my observation and experience, this is also the hardest thing to "purge" from the heart and minds of Local Churchers, especially those who have been in the Movement for any significant period of time. So much of "the glorious church life" was/is based upon and intertwined with Lee's person (his special place and authority among the members) and Lee's work (aka The Ministry). Outwardly, most LC members strongly deny any such dynamic exists, but when you hear them speak, individually or in the meetings, their constant gushing out of appreciation and even adoration for Lee and his ministry belies any denial of what is so painfully obvious to even the most casual observer.

Finally, the purging of the leaven takes time...lots and lots of time. After 20 years I'm still purging. For some of us, some leaven was so ingrained within our hearts and minds, we will probably take it to our graves. The best and most effective purging comes from God himself. "The washing of the water with the Word".(Eph 5:26) Praise Him! We have the Spirit and we have the Word! And we have each other. This is what this forum is all about.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent question. After all these years out of the Movement (about 20yrs now) my observation and experience tells me that it is different things for different people. For one brother or sister the leaven may be certain practices, such as pray-reading or calling on the Lord, which actually may hinder their growth in the Lord. For another brother or sister it may be the inability to meditate on the Word without the use of "the ministry" or the RCV footnotes. For another it may be the inability to worship or receive anything significant from the Lord without being in a corporate setting.

Of course the most significant leaven, in my view, is the over estimation and appreciation for the person and work of Witness Lee. In my observation and experience, this is also the hardest thing to "purge" from the heart and minds of Local Churchers, especially those who have been in the Movement for any significant period of time. So much of "the glorious church life" was/is based upon and intertwined with Lee's person (his special place and authority among the members) and Lee's work (aka The Ministry). Outwardly, most LC members strongly deny any such dynamic exists, but when you hear them speak, individually or in the meetings, their constant gushing out of appreciation and even adoration for Lee and his ministry belies any denial of what is so painfully obvious to even the most casual observer.

Finally, the purging of the leaven takes time...lots and lots of time. After 20 years I'm still purging. For some of us, some leaven was so ingrained within our hearts and minds, we will probably take it to our graves. The best and most effective purging comes from God himself. "The washing of the water with the Word".(Eph 5:26) Praise Him! We have the Spirit and we have the Word! And we have each other. This is what this forum is all about.

Thanks, Unto Him. I agree with your answer, with exception to totally throwing out calling on the Lord and pray reading. Both have biblical basis, and when biblically practiced render much benefit. But, I have thrown out mindless and Spiritless calling on the Lord and pray-reading, and thinking they are the magical answer to all that has been promoted and too often practiced in the Lord's recovery. I like to ask Jesus into my every situation and thought by invoking His name, and taking the word by means of all prayer and petition to this day (also after being out for many years).

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

If I recall correctly, NYCYPCD (New York City Young People CD) is based in the Church In New York. Their earlier music was standard LC hymns or supplemental music ( when the supplement was around). Over the last couple of years they have become quite polished and have incorporated an orchestra. Those that play instruments are very good - even expert. I believe one of the ( elders ?) in NY arranges and coordinates their music ministry. They have kept the generic name NYCYPCD. They only released one CD under the the label Vessels of Mercy. I was so helped by this CD and noticed that they never played anything from it on their Hymns Radio. So I sent an e-mail asking why. Their response was that they (Vessels of Mercy) do not wish to be on the radio. However, the singers to me appear to be the same or a subset of those on the NYCYPCD so I do not know what is going on there. They never did release another CD under that label but continue to do so under the NYCYPCD label. You can find their music on ITunes , Google etc. much of it is on YouTube. The recent recordings are very good. You can create a playlist of some excellent worship and love songs for yourself and skip over the ministry songs. Although there are not all that many die-hard ministry songs

Thanks for the explanation. I checked them out. Yes, their current music is definitely from the Hymnal and song books of the Local Churches.

[Freedom]

Does anyone know if WL spoke anything specific about music? I am curious what he had to say if he did. I am certainly aware of the LC stigmas about non-sanctioned music and instruments. I have played guitar in LC meetings for a long time.

It seems to me that those of us who have participated in LC music services have tried to make the best of a less-than-desirable setting. What I mean by that is embellishing the music in a way that makes it 'enjoyable', yet keeping things under the radar. Music is music. Those in the LC who legalize music are ignorant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent question. After all these years out of the Movement (about 20yrs now) my observation and experience tells me that it is different things for different people.

Of course the most significant leaven, in my view, is the over estimation and appreciation for the person and work of Witness Lee.

Finally, the purging of the leaven takes time...lots and lots of time. After 20 years I'm still purging. For some of us, some leaven was so ingrained within our hearts and minds, we will probably take it to our graves.

I would supplement your description of leaven to include judgmentalism and elitism, both ingredients of Laodicean pride.

Originally Posted by JJ

Thanks, Unto Him. I agree with your answer, with exception to totally throwing out calling on the Lord and pray reading. Both have biblical basis, and when biblically practiced render much benefit. But, I have thrown out mindless and Spiritless calling on the Lord and pray-reading, and thinking they are the magical answer to all that has been promoted and too often practiced in the Lord's recovery. I like to ask Jesus into my every situation and thought by invoking His name, and taking the word by means of all prayer and petition to this day (also after being out for many years).

I definitely agree with JJ's observation of calling on the Lord. Here in the GLA, we had older brothers who warned about such vain practices, and I thank the Lord for that. But for those in the LCM who vainly, robotically, and mechanically chanted the Lord's name in choral unison at trainings without any reality, it would be best to chuck that practice completely.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Does anyone know if WL spoke anything specific about music? I am curious what he had to say if he did. I am certainly aware of the LC stigmas about non-sanctioned music and instruments. I have played guitar in LC meetings for a long time.

It seems to me that those of us who have participated in LC music services have tried to make the best of a less-than-desirable setting. What I mean by that is embellishing the music in a way that makes it 'enjoyable', yet keeping things under the radar. Music is music. Those in the LC who legalize music are ignorant.

I was in a locality where a young brother wanted to play the drums and a elder said it will never happen. I don't think LSM sanctions drum playing. But, then I heard of a majority Hispanic locality that was into tambourines and the dear saints ignored the lily white elder who tried to ban the tambourines.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I was in a locality where a young brother wanted to play the drums and a elder said it will never happen. I don't think LSM sanctions drum playing. But, then I heard of a majority Hispanic locality that was into tambourines and the dear saints ignored the lily white elder who tried to ban the tambourines.

Part of Titus Chu's quarantine can be attributed to allowing drums and electric guitars in the young people's gatherings.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Part of Titus Chu's quarantine can be attributed to allowing drums and electric guitars in the young people's gatherings.

The Lord Jesus is much bigger than the lords recovery.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Part of Titus Chu's quarantine can be attributed to allowing drums and electric guitars in the young people's gatherings.

I attended a "ministry meeting" in the mid 2000's where Ed Marks went on a rant saying that the apostle Paul didn't carry an electric guitar around with him (in candid reference to the mid-west situation). I remember thinking to myself, "well Paul didn't carry an acoustic guitar around either..."

The blended logic simply doesn't work. The only reason that they get away with it is because members are afraid to confront them.

[NewManLiving]

There are many things that the Apostle Paul would not even think about doing that are currently being practiced in the LCM churches. But back to music, the South Korean churches (not sure if they are still LSM organizational churches) as is their culture, are full of musicians since many learn to play an instrument from their youth. I recall seeing a photo many years ago, looked more like a classical recital than a meeting.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I attended a "ministry meeting" in the mid 2000's where Ed Marks went on a rant saying that the apostle Paul didn't carry an electric guitar around with him (in candid reference to the mid-west situation). I remember thinking to myself, "well Paul didn't carry an acoustic guitar around either..."

This forum is filled with things that Lee did and the apostle Paul did not do:

• Like placing the Prodigal Son in charge of his ministry
• Like suing outsiders over doctrines and insiders over real estate
• Like quarantining workers who refuse subjugation
• Like using the children of God to build your empire
• Like lies, coverups, slanders, and backstabbing to protect your reputation

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

There are many things that the Apostle Paul would not even think about doing that are currently being practiced in the LCM churches. But back to music, the South Korean churches (not sure if they are still LSM organizational churches) as is their culture, are full of musicians since many learn to play an instrument from their youth. I recall seeing a photo many years ago, looked more like a classical recital than a meeting.

Back in the '70's TC told us about the saints in Brazil using electric guitars and tambourines. Egads!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Back in the '70's TC told us about the saints in Brazil using electric guitars and tambourines. Egads!

It's the drums that's evil.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

It's the drums that's evil.

Pianos ... however ... are ... by definition ... "holy and spiritual."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Pianos ... however ... are ... by definition ... "holy and spiritual."

When I attended the semi-annual trainings, there was piano and organ accompaniment for the singing. It was the only LC setting where I ever saw the organ played. When I first saw it, it threw me off, because I had assumed that the LC had done away with "religious traditions".

Of course the piano is traditional, but the organ is archetypal with respect to tradition.

[NewManLiving]

Something that really needs to be thrown out is the insistence on LSM organizational churches to make all their adherents look Asian. And no offense to my dear Asian brothers and sisters - could be any ethnic group. I could never figure this one out. What obvious fleshy nonsense. I guess if WL was Slovik everyone would have a beard. I was perusing the Internet earlier and came across some of the churches in Africa. Some of the pictures showed a couple of people in colorful African dress beating on wooden drums. I immediately thought to myself 'Now that's going to be a challenge'. Of course they pulled it off in India when they went in and "took over" several hundred local churches that were originally planted by the Holy Spirit, turning them into dead business churches. Now all these deceived ones look Asian. It's almost alien when you think about it. All these clones running around with smart phones thinking God had handed over Babylon to them But humor aside, what gets into people to make them so extreme? Thinking that a rational man will see something glorious about their presence and behavior. I remember a friend/brother, here at Yale telling me that the LC saints wanted to use him since he was so Caucasian looking. The problem is not that there are a lot of Asians in the LC, but rather that they want every convert to look like one also.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Something that really needs to be thrown out is the insistence on LSM organizational churches to make all their adherents look Asian. And no offense to my dear Asian brothers and sisters - could be any ethnic group. I could never figure this one out. What obvious fleshy nonsense. I guess if WL was Slovik everyone would have a beard. I was perusing the Internet earlier and came across some of the churches in Africa. Some of the pictures showed a couple of people in colorful African dress beating on wooden drums. I immediately thought to myself 'Now that's going to be a challenge'. Of course they pulled it off in India when they went in and "took over" several hundred local churches that were originally planted by the Holy Spirit, turning them into dead business churches. Now all these deceived ones look Asian. It's almost alien when you think about it. All these clones running around with smart phones thinking God had handed over Babylon to them But humor aside, what gets into people to make them so extreme? Thinking that a rational man will see something glorious about their presence and behavior. I remember a friend/brother, here at Yale telling me that the LC saints wanted to use him since he was so Caucasian looking. The problem is not that there are a lot of Asians in the LC, but rather that they want every convert to look like one also.

White shirts with skinny ties and a buttoned up sweater is a common uniform. I've also noticed that some of the more absolute brothers say the word "Lord" with a nasal quality like WL did. Kind of like "lard". But, I guess we all imitate somebody, just wish I was a better imitator of Christ (not in the outward appearance way).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

White shirts with skinny ties and . . . .

The brief youth rebellion that arose from the Berkley conference back in 77(?) included a mocking of the structured ways of the regulars. They came back with a little jingle that had the following words:

White shirt, skinny tie, briefcase and wing-tipped shoes.

Lasted all of about one weekend. The leadership everywhere put the foot down.

Oh No! Not the foot!
"The foot is down! Disaster averted."
"Well that was a disaster."

[NewManLiving]

It took me years to even trust anyone with facial hair. Can't believe that I actually became so deceived. It does not surprise me that they actually practiced door-knocking like the JW and LDS. Finally I got to see the love for the Lord and the normal life that many Christians outside the LC have. And yes they have the so-called High Peak gospel. Of course they stay away from the becoming God part of it. Not sure if Lee got it right on that one. "Partaker" is not exactly "Become". But the real proof is the fruit of it all. You are not becoming God in life and nature when you elevate a man over the headship of Christ, continue to lie and slander innocent brothers and sisters, control people, love only those who are sold out for the ministry, go on campus to get the "good material" for more knowledge and better income potential - the list can go on and on. You will know them by their fruit. So what kind of fruit is that?

May the Lord have mercy on those within the LC that are truly His alone and deliver them from such bondage.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

It took me years to even trust anyone with facial hair.

That's funny.

I remember years ago (1979?) Titus Chu visited us in Columbus for a conference of sorts. A dear brother BR from Willoughby just happened to visit one evening. The brother had grown a beard since the last time I saw him. Titus noticed it and launched into a his "burden" about how growing a beard indicates our heart has grown cold towards the Lord. Everyone knew whom he was speaking to. Such was life under the "ministry" of Titus Chu.

Years later in 2003 I began studying the British Brethren movement in an attempt to understand what had happened to my beloved Recovery. I obtained a book Chief Men Among the Brethren, one hundred short bios of their influential brothers with pics. I quickly noticed that 90% of them had beards. How could this be? Didn't bearded men have cold hearts?

Being "slow of heart" like those on the road to Emmaus who took hours to recognize Jesus, I finally came to realize how culture determines one's spirituality. Chinese people can't grow nice beards, so Chinese ministers deemed them nonspiritual. British folks grow nice beards, so British ministers deemed them spiritual. Simple as that!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

It took me years to even trust anyone with facial hair. Can't believe that I actually became so deceived. It does not surprise me that they actually practiced door-knocking like the JW and LDS. Finally I got to see the love for the Lord and the normal life that many Christians outside the LC have. And yes they have the so-called High Peak gospel. Of course they stay away from the becoming God part of it. Not sure if Lee got it right on that one. "Partaker" is not exactly "Become". But the real proof is the fruit of it all. You are not becoming God in life and nature when you elevate a man over the headship of Christ, continue to lie and slander innocent brothers and sisters, control people, love only those who are sold out for the ministry, go on campus to get the "good material" for more knowledge and better income potential - the list can go on and on. You will know them by their fruit. So what kind of fruit is that?

May the Lord have mercy on those within the LC that are truly His alone and deliver them from such bondage.

A while ago (when I showed some promise, I guess) I was invited to a regional "Brothers" meeting by an elder. At that time I was sporting a wanna-be handlebar stache. During a break in the men's room a brother asked if I was a serving one on campus or somehow thought I was working with college kids. I told him no. At lunch a couple of weeks after that I told the elder that I wanted to grow the biggest handlebar stache in the recovery! He laughted and told me some brother in the Midwest had me beat. I was joking and he did not take the bait. I did a word search in the ministry and could never find anything negative written about beards, even though I had picked up bad vibes from the saints about beards. There are a lot of unwritten codes and rules in the recovery...sometimes I think it has become a recovery of legalism and judgement. But, what do I know, I'm just a backsliding opposer destined for the 1,000 year summer school (I'll probably meet WL there!).

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's funny.

I remember years ago (1979?) Titus Chu visited us in Columbus for a conference of sorts. A dear brother BR from Willoughby just happened to visit one evening...

You hit the nail right on the head! Look at the culture during the time of our Lord. Many, if not all had facial hair. I have many writings of our early British brothers. They all had beards. I believe that Tozer had a mustache. The Lord has created such variety. Just look at the universe around us, watch any animal/nature related documentary, take a walk in the woods. The colors and varieties are all unique and wonderful. I'm afraid that the LC has completely mis-aimed, choosing instead to accept the culture and look of one Chinese brother as the standard for everyone. Quite frankly, I don't think that any WL co-workers would have been allowed to have facial hair simply because he did not like it. That can be assumed by Titus Chu's remarks. Now who really had the cold heart? Perhaps Titus should grow some facial hair.
I grieve each day for the wonderful freedom that once was in the LC only because the Lord honored and blessed those who had a true heart for Him alone. As you well know most of us did and we were unaware of the snake slithering in the garden until he was confident enough to reveal himself. By that time anyone who tried to resist him was "quarantined"

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by HERn

A while ago (when I showed some promise, I guess) I was invited to a regional "Brothers" meeting by an elder. At that time I was sporting a wanna-be handlebar stache. During a break in the men's room a brother asked if I was a serving one on campus or somehow thought I was working with college kids. I told him no. At lunch a couple of weeks after that I told the elder that I wanted to grow the biggest handlebar stache in the recovery! He laughted and told me some brother in the Midwest had me beat. I was joking and he did not take the bait...

That was refreshing. We used to wait to see how long it took the Lord?????? to "touch" someone so that they cut their hair, shaved off every bit of facial hair, parted their hair on the same side as WL, and put on the proper uniform. Then we would greet them praising the Lord for such a wonderful transformation. I went through this and looking back it had more to do with peer pressure than the Lord's direct speaking. Unfortunately this concept is taken to the extreme in the belief that getting the ministry "into" you will dispense God into you. They have a "processed God" who is metabolically changed just to transform you into God through WL's ministry. This is serious! These people actually believe this. If it were not for some of the genuine love songs produced by New York's young people , I could not be sure that any love was left for the Lord Himself in the LSM LC. And where is the growth in life? You go to the FTT with possibly some love for the Lord and come out with a big head and a little heart. This is NOT Christ nor is it becoming God any way you look at it. I have studied them for years and I do not see any growth in God's life at all. It's all about the ministry

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

That was refreshing. We used to wait to see how long it took the Lord?????? to "touch" someone so that they cut their hair, shaved off every bit of facial hair, parted their hair on the same side as WL, and put on the proper uniform. Then we would greet them praising the Lord for such a wonderful transformation. I went through this and looking back it had more to do with peer pressure than the Lord's direct speaking.

Just to be different, I'd grow facial hair. When it came to wearing dress shirts to the LTM, anything but a white dress shirt.
I mentioned to a brother living with my family about the peer pressure. It's an underlying problem, It's not much different than what college students are faced with.....fitting into a group. In the local churches, it conforming to the group think. If you don't conform, be prepared to be cast out.
I heard stories about the burnings at the beaches. I'm sure peer pressure was at work. Even the matter of watching or not watching tv was a product of peer pressure. During the 1980's it was whether or not to send your high schoolers to Young People Conferences. Peer pressure at work to gauge your oneness. Even now with the Full Time training, it's peer pressure. What if a young brother or sister doesn't want to go, does it make them any less a brother or sister. With the same logic, if a brother or sister goes (peer pressure influenced or not), does it make them any more a brother or sister.
Given reactions I have seen, yes it does. What it means, yes we do make distinctions based on FTTA.
Inwardly, whether we go, don't go to the trainings, stay or leave the local church, if we're regenerated, we have been bought with the blood of Jesus Christ.

[NewManLiving]

I remember a few burnings. Another extreme misinterpretation of Scripture. Not like we practiced magic and sorcery and had to get rid of related books. Is this still practiced? Things like this happen when a group of extremists get together. This has nothing to do with absoluteness for God. It is yet another example of an extreme work of the flesh. Thankfully I don't recall burning anything like family pictures, a thought that never crossed my mind. I read stories about saints that did this in front of their children - the very ones in the pictures. How sad that even then they were not able to follow God-given prudence and reason.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I remember a few burnings. Another extreme misinterpretation of Scripture.

This has nothing to do with absoluteness for God. It is yet another example of an extreme work of the flesh.

I have read a few testimonies from those who burnt wedding and baby pics, and now have life-long regrets.

Peer-pressure thrives in legalistic settings. Just another example of LSM robbing the children of God of their liberty in Christ Jesus.

[UntoHim]

At least today LC brothers and sisters can upload their pictures to the cloud where they can't be burnt. Same goes for this forum!

[JJ]

A web site that is helpful to check to see if our legalism is scriptural or not.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/10...ament-commands

I don't see anything about no beards, white shirts, ties, no dancing, no entertainment, no sports, no music. But, there is a lot that is truly exposing. Truly these are the things we should be focusing on.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

A web site that is helpful to check to see if our legalism is scriptural or not.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/10...ament-commands

I don't see anything about no beards, white shirts, ties, no dancing, no entertainment, no sports, no music. But, there is a lot that is truly exposing. Truly these are the things we should be focusing on.

The LC is a place that has a bad reputation for legalism. This all is in spite of a common theme of WL's ministry, that is, "Christ vs. Religion". I was thinking about this recently, and I had to ask myself, if WL was so intently focus on throwing out "religion", how did he so quickly and successfully create his own religion?

I have to think that much of it is that those in the LC don't apply the same standards to themselves as everyone else. In a church were clergy wear a cassock, that might be characterized as 'traditional' or 'dead'. But if there is an unspoken dress code in the LC of suits and ties, that isn't seen as even being the least bit traditional. In the LC, they like to arrange the chairs a certain way. They criticize churches that have the chairs all facing in one direction (even though that is how LSM trainings are). There are just so many examples. The reality is simply that legalism is legalism. Those in the LC need to realize that they must check everything against scripture. The Bible doesn't mention pianos, white shirts and ties, chair arrangement or any of that other nonsense.

[HERn]

I want to testify that I am so happy to be in a real local church. I'm getting to know several people. The Lord is so active. One brother meets on Friday nights with people from the Salvation Army where he preaches and ministers (he is a layman), another brother runs a satellite tv service broadcasting the gospel and programs in Arabic, a sister is working with exploited children mainly girls, another brother is allowing a couple of people to live with them as they try to start a new church in a different denomination, two sisters organize MOPS mothers of preschool children ministry where the moms can meet for bible study and fellowship with daycare provided. I'm sorry, but the so-called recovery is impoverished compared to what the Lord is doing in His "other" churches. Why are they so blinded, narrow, and judgmental?

[UntoHim]

Thanks HERn for your encouraging testimony. It's always good to hear what the Lord is doing out there in "poor, poor, Christianity"

Seriously though, the simple truth is that God has been working through, in and among his people since the beginning about 2,000 years ago. He has NEVER stopped. Remember, our Lord's words: "I will build my Church". Only people like Witness Lee have ever made it seem like God wasn't keeping his promise. Another simple truth is that the people who are the biggest hindrance are the people who are trying so hard to help God out in his efforts. Well he doesn't really need our efforts - - "as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25,27) It is Christ that did the giving himself up, and it is Christ who is going to do the presenting of his Church to himself.

How does all this practically work itself out? Well I think for starters it has to do with the things such as HERn has related to us in his testimony. This is how God is practically building and presenting his Church to himself, and NOT among people who sit all cooped up in a meeting hall declaring that "WE are the Church" and other fruitless, meaningless notions.
-

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I want to testify that I am so happy to be in a real local church. I'm getting to know several people. The Lord is so active. One brother meets on Friday nights with people from the Salvation Army where he preaches and ministers (he is a layman), another brother runs a satellite tv service broadcasting the gospel and programs in Arabic, a sister is working with exploited children mainly girls, another brother is allowing a couple of people to live with them as they try to start a new church in a different denomination, two sisters organize MOPS mothers of preschool children ministry where the moms can meet for bible study and fellowship with daycare provided. I'm sorry, but the so-called recovery is impoverished compared to what the Lord is doing in His "other" churches. Why are they so blinded, narrow, and judgmental?

I've witnessed the same sorts of functioning of the many parts of the body in my community church, and true oneness with all other genuine believers in the City over the essentials of the faith, regardless of where they attend (that is much more biblical than what I see in today's "recovery").

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks HERn for your encouraging testimony. It's always good to hear what the Lord is doing out there in "poor, poor, Christianity"

Seriously though, the simple truth is that God has been working through, in and among his people since the beginning about 2,000 years ago. He has NEVER stopped. Remember, our Lord's words: "I will build my Church". Only people like Witness Lee have ever made it seem like God wasn't keeping his promise. Another simple truth is that the people who are the biggest hindrance are the people who are trying so hard to help God out in his efforts. Well he doesn't really need our efforts - - "as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25,27) It is Christ that did the giving himself up, and it is Christ who is going to do the presenting of his Church to himself.

How does all this practically work itself out? Well I think for starters it has to do with the things such as HERn has related to us in his testimony. This is how God is practically building and presenting his Church to himself, and NOT among people who sit all cooped up in a meeting hall declaring that "WE are the Church" and other fruitless, meaningless notions.
-

I wholeheartedly agree with Witness Lee's vision of God's building, and applaud his trumpeting of this biblical truth (the Bible is filled with God's plan to build the church, and doing it universally and locally). It just seems that the biblical means of building (in love) and purpose to glorify God (versus worship of the church) has been lost. Understanding what god-men really look like has been lost (Jesus is the model: not grasping god-hood, becoming in fashion as a man, serving men, and dying for them)

[UntoHim]

I don't think many Christians would have any problem with Lee's "vision" of the church. After all, much of it is based upon the New Testament. The problem comes in the practical implementation, execution and administration of such a vision. Just for starters, consider the matter of the appointment of elders. Since the beginnings of the Local Church movement, elders have been chosen not solely upon their biblical qualifications, but at least partially upon their loyalty to a certain man and his personal ministry. At first, in Mainland China, it was loyalty to the person and work of Watchman Nee. Upon Nee's demise, Witness Lee took over as "the wise master builder". Even to this day, there is little doubt that the Local Church movement is based upon the person and work of Witness Lee. To this day, elders are appointed based largely on their loyalty and strict adherence to Lee's ministry.

One of the slogans of this vision was/is "administration local, each answering to the Lord". This is absolutely biblical. The problem is that this has never really been practiced in any meaningful sense, and even when certain brothers or localities tried to actually put this into practice, they were quickly shot down by Witness Lee, or after his death, they were harshly censored or even "quarantined" by his hand-chosen "continuation", the Blended brothers.

This is just one aspect of how this vision is practically implemented. There are many others and this forum is filled with lots of them.
-

[NewManLiving]

The ground of locality as a doctrine is a big problem since all it does is basically divide and/or conquer. Look at what happened in the early assemblies in New York. After Stephen Kaung could not accept the doctrine of the dirt because he felt it was divisive, WL and company just took over, working on certain individuals and possibly relatives (If I recall correctly) to achieve their take-over. This same scenario played out in India when local churches sprang up apart from LSM. They began to infiltrate and take-over. Again, when their legalistic or unethical policies caused division in one of their former business churches, they practiced this same evil. Please show me otherwise. I don't think that WL got it right on the ground issue. It does not bear fruit of the kind that would be pleasing to the Lord. Any more proof would be the authors of "ground" confusion themselves: The Exclusive Brethren. All these have failed. So where is the blessing?
I have not seen or read of any such thing in the assemblies of brother Kaung, another co-worker of WN. They are very sober and on guard against man-worship and legalism. Possibly due to the fact that Stephen had the opportunity to examine it for decades seeing this trend both in WN and WL. This is what the evidence shows! We are allowed to use our minds and examine each fruit. If I'm wrong I stand to be corrected but we do not have to accept things blindly.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The ground of locality as a doctrine is a big problem since all it does is basically divide and/or conquer. Look at what happened in the early assemblies in New York. After Stephen Kaung could not accept the doctrine of the dirt because he felt it was divisive, WL and company just took over, working on certain individuals and possibly relatives (If I recall correctly) to achieve their take-over.

The title of this post is "Our Past History". If you go to http://www.christiantapeministry.com/ there's a message given in 2012 by Stephen Kaung by the title "Our Past History". Regarding Witness Lee specifically, Stephen Kaung speaking in love indicated though he knew Witness Lee's motive still invited Witness Lee to NYC (probably in mid-1960's).

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

The title of this post is "Our Past History". If you go to http://www.christiantapeministry.com/ there's a message given in 2012 by Stephen Kaung by the title "Our Past History". Regarding Witness Lee specifically, Stephen Kaung speaking in love indicated though he knew Witness Lee's motive still invited Witness Lee to NYC (probably in mid-1960's).

There is another thread (I wish I could remember) where I make a rough transcript of this message where Kaung discusses his relationship with WL. I found his side of the story to be quite enlightening as to what really happened between him and Lee. As you said, he knew that WL wanted to take over yet he was still willing to work with him.

Something that I wish LC members could come to understand is that there are other groups out there who share the same view that WN taught, however, they simply can't allow a business located in Anaheim, CA to run their church.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Something that I wish LC members could come to understand is that there are other groups out there who share the same view that WN taught, however, they simply can't allow a business located in Anaheim, CA to run their church.

How does this work if you're not taking LSM publications, you're not on the proper ground?

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Something that I wish LC members could come to understand is that there are other groups out there who share the same view that WN taught, however, they simply can't allow a business located in Anaheim, CA to run their church.

These "other" groups are not lacking in the so-called High-Peak Truths as LSM would have you to believe -just WL particular slant on "Truth", minus all the LC lingo such as "Processed God" and the like. Terms like this de-personalize God giving Him the same personality as a kitchen blender. Let's face it; this terminology is odd and I for one was never comfortable with it even while I was in the LC. I could never bring myself to thank the Lord because He was processed, although I do not have any issue with what it means.

When the Apostle Paul was saved he did not confer with flesh and blood for three years. He goes on to tell us of receiving direct revelation from the Lord Himself as an Apostle who has "seen" The Lord. The evidence of this is the profound revelations of the mysteries of God and Christ that were revealed to him and that he passes on to us in his unique letters. Not once does he describe these mysteries using strange terminology. I don't believe that the Lord ever told Paul that He was "processed" or that Paul must "Take the ground" or that Paul must understand the "Seven-fold intensified Spirit". Take away the strange lingo and the LC has nothing more than what has already been revealed and known by other groups. With the LC there is the additional layer of mysticism - thus their man becoming God teachings. However most of the Mystics taught oneness and union of will and not "becoming God".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

The title of this post is "Our Past History". If you go to http://www.christiantapeministry.com/ there's a message given in 2012 by Stephen Kaung by the title "Our Past History". Regarding Witness Lee specifically, Stephen Kaung speaking in love indicated though he knew Witness Lee's motive still invited Witness Lee to NYC (probably in mid-1960's).

I'm re-posting on this thread some of what Stephen Kaung spoke in that message. The original thread is here: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5346

Originally Posted by Stephen Kaung

While we were there meeting together [in New York], we invited Brother Lee to come visit us once a year, because we had been working together for many years. I knew him in 1933 when he first came and joined Watchman Nee. I was in college then, and he helped me a lot. After I joined with Brother Nee in 1935, we worked together in China. Afterwards, I was in the Philippines, he was in Taiwan. After I came to this country, he came. As a matter of fact, it was New York that helped to get him his permanent residency. We had been working for so many years.

Unfortunately there was some misunderstanding. There were rumors around, but the main point was, we began to have different ideas about the church.

When he [Lee] came to New York, he told me, “You have to call yourselves the church in New York”. I said “No. We cannot do that, because we are only about 200 people, and there are so many of God's people in New York. How can we claim that we are the church in New York? We have to testify for the local church, but we cannot claim ourselves as being the local church.” He said “If you don’t claim you are the church, then there is no church.”

So he tried to take over. I knew what he was doing, but we still invited him to come. I remember the last time we invited him.

I told the brothers who were with me: “If we send a letter to invite him to come, we cannot limit him as to what he can talk about. We want to respect him as a servant of the Lord.”

Even though I knew what he would be speaking, if we invited him we would invite him with an open heart. We sent a letter to him. What I know is that Brother Lee had a meeting with the brothers and sisters in Los Angeles. I was told that he showed the letter to them and asked whether or not he should come. They told him if he was invited, he should go.

He came, and he not only came himself, but he brought a number of people with him. I know he intended to take over that meeting. Thank God that at that time, the brothers were really one with me. When he came with a group of people, they started a meeting before every meeting. We allowed them to do that until the time we were scheduled to meet. Then we started our meeting. No matter what he spoke, the brothers were still in agreement with me. So that was the situation at that time.

By the way, I had a long talk with Brother Lee. I told him that there are rumors around. I told him "If you think I have something against you, tell me. If you have something against me, tell me too. We shouldn't let anything come in between us."

Well, he told me two things. I won't tell you the details. It was really a misunderstanding, so I explained to him. He finally said "Alright, there is nothing between you and me, but on the point of the church, we cannot agree." So that is the way that we departed.

In 1972, I moved to Washington D.C. During that period, he tried to work upon the brothers in New York, so he finally took over. That was the meeting in Jamaica [Queens, NY]. When this happened, I was in Washington DC. A few brothers and sisters felt uneasy about it, so they left, and we began to come together for prayer.

[TLFisher]

"but on the point of the church, we cannot agree".....

My guess is on doctrine of the ground, Stephen Kaung and Witness Lee could not agree.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

"but on the point of the church, we cannot agree".....

My guess is on doctrine of the ground, Stephen Kaung and Witness Lee could not agree.

It seems that WL went around everywhere pushing his teaching of the ground. He made an issue out of this with A.W. Tozer, then again with T. Austin Sparks, and also with a close co-worker, Stephen Kaung. How unfortunate it was that he was unable to work with others because of this practice that he kept pushing.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Terry

"but on the point of the church, we cannot agree".....

My guess is on doctrine of the ground, Stephen Kaung and Witness Lee could not agree.

If we were to follow the history of WN and WL and their delegated authority teachings, it is highly probable that Stephen was considered by WL to be his subordinate. So this may have been part of the problem between them as well.
I often wonder what the details of these "rumors" and "misunderstandings" were about.

[OBW]

I feel obligated to point back at the question raised by the title of the thread.

"How much to throw out?"

All of it.

Not saying that it is all false. But discard Lee (and Nee and the BBs) as the source of your belief system. If it is not found in a significant way among the non-LCM theologians, be very skeptical.

And while I can say that Stephen Kaung (sp?) is not like Lee, because his base springs from Nee, it is probably better to say that there is a risk of error mixed in that even he does not recognize. Not at the level of Lee. But still there.

It sounds so spiritual. But is it sometimes just less bombastically pushing in the same direction of Chinese culture replacing Christ and true spiritual growth? I know that in the early days of his followers, they were busy identifying with Nee, not Kaung. Somewhat like the LCM did in the early days. They saw Lee as a preacher come from Nee. And maybe Kaung never went beyond that. But even if he retained contact and fellowship with TAS and others besides the old-line Nee leadership, his base is in the theology of Nee.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I feel obligated to point back at the question raised by the title of the thread.

"How much to throw out?"

All of it.

That may sound good, but those who have done so ended up discarding Jesus, their faith, the Bible, their trust in Christians, and ended up in a far worse place.

That's why this forum exists, to help former members distinguish the wheat from the chaff, and to expose the leaven of Lee.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I often wonder what the details of these "rumors" and "misunderstandings" were about.

Was it more than just the ground of locality (i.e. doctrine of division)?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

If we were to follow the history of WN and WL and their delegated authority teachings, it is highly probable that Stephen was considered by WL to be his subordinate. So this may have been part of the problem between them as well.
I often wonder what the details of these "rumors" and "misunderstandings" were about.

We were regularly told by Lee that Nee suffered constant opposition due to the gospel, just as the Apostle Paul did. Then Lee would go further telling us of all of the opposition he had faced over the decades. In the absence of any information to the contrary, we all completely bought into his message and his version of history. As long as he completely controlled the flow of information, we stayed on board.

Then the Blendeds decided to dump Titus Chu shortly after Y2K. We knew that it was simply a power struggle, and that Chu was entirely orthodox in the faith, in fact he was far more scriptural than any of the Blendeds. Chu's quarantine was the first chink in Anaheim's armor for many of us. It was the first "hole in the dike." Then we found the old Bereans forum, and found out what really happened to John Ingalls back in the late 1980's.

Many of us now were suspicious of every story Lee ever told us. What about the other "storms" of persecution? What about these other "rumors and misunderstandings?" It turns out that they were never "ambitious men longing for control," but in actuality were men of God rising up to oppose evil and unrighteousness.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That may sound good, but those who have done so ended up discarding Jesus, their faith, the Bible, their trust in Christians, and ended up in a far worse place.

That's why this forum exists, to help former members distinguish the wheat from the chaff, and to expose the leaven of Lee.

So you didn't read the rest? Anyone who does not understand what I am saying when I say that if it is worth keeping there is another source for it other than Lee probably is truly feeble minded.

An alternate way for what I said was to say "Ignore Lee and listen to others. If a conflict arises because of something you learned in the LCM, start with the position that the LCM is wrong and force yourself to prove it right rather than assuming it is correct and asking for proof it is wrong."

Those that reject their faith are not doing what I said to do. They are assuming that everything from Lee was false, therefore even if all of Christendom says the same thing the will then reject it anyway. I did not say that.

And you know it.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

So you didn't read the rest? Anyone who does not understand what I am saying when I say that if it is worth keeping there is another source for it other than Lee probably is truly feeble minded.

An alternate way for what I said was to say "Ignore Lee and listen to others. If a conflict arises because of something you learned in the LCM, start with the position that the LCM is wrong and force yourself to prove it right rather than assuming it is correct and asking for proof it is wrong."

Those that reject their faith are not doing what I said to do. They are assuming that everything from Lee was false, therefore even if all of Christendom says the same thing the will then reject it anyway. I did not say that.

And you know it.

Good discussion. This caused me to better ID my MO when it comes to anything spoken, practiced, or lauded by Lee: "If it's unique to Lee it's safest to kick it to the curb before it gets its tenticles into your brain".

[HERn]

This morning I fellowshipped with a brother whose dad and granddad served in the Salvation Army. In the town I live the city has set up an area where the homeless can set up tents to sleep in. Previously they were camping in creek bottoms and other places. This brother serves them with the gospel after they have been fed. None of them would be good LSM material, but they are precious to the Lord, after all He came to serve the sick not the well.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

This morning I fellowshipped with a brother whose dad and granddad served in the Salvation Army. In the town I live the city has set up an area where the homeless can set up tents to sleep in. Previously they were camping in creek bottoms and other places. This brother serves them with the gospel after they have been fed. None of them would be good LSM material, but they are precious to the Lord, after all He came to serve the sick not the well.

An interesting question.

Would anyone from whatever church come and serve them meals, or in other ways, if there was mostly no opportunity to "serve them with the gospel"?

The reason I ask is to discover whether we feel that the consideration of loving your neighbor predicated upon their willingness to listen to our preaching? Or is the general requirement of "justice" reserved only for those situations where we are free to preach?

I have heard some significant push-back from people who discovered that in certain situations they were restricted in their ability to preach the gospel. Isn't that a little like not helping your parents if you declare that what would have been for them is now given to the Tempe (or whatever that thing was supposed to mean that Jesus spoke against)?

I am saying nothing against the particular brother. Rather I am asking this of us.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

An interesting question.

Would anyone from whatever church come and serve them meals, or in other ways, if there was mostly no opportunity to "serve them with the gospel"?

The reason I ask is to discover whether we feel that the consideration of loving your neighbor predicated upon their willingness to listen to our preaching? Or is the general requirement of "justice" reserved only for those situations where we are free to preach?

I have heard some significant push-back from people who discovered that in certain situations they were restricted in their ability to preach the gospel. Isn't that a little like not helping your parents if you declare that what would have been for them is now given to the Tempe (or whatever that thing was supposed to mean that Jesus spoke against)?

I am saying nothing against the particular brother. Rather I am asking this of us.

I don't know the answer to the question. Today I found out that he does not provide the meal, just the recreation (movie, this week it was War Room). They can can attend the movie and service after the dinner or not if they don't want to. I might attend next Friday night, I'm kind of interested in what goes on. I really enjoyed worshipping the Lord this morning along with the table. It exceeded my LC experience. Our daughter is still on the fringes, and it breaks my heart. She tries so hard and makes gifts for the girls and does things to make them like her. But, when she walks up to a group of them they don't see her and then she walks away. She decided not to go to youth group tonight saying she had too much homework, which was not true but we are going to let her stay home. Other behavioral/physiological things have happened with her at last weeks high school girls bible study that shows she's under a lot of stress trying to be accepted. It's sad, I don't understand God's reasons, and I'm ticked off at Him. I think He'll survive though!! And so will we.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

I don't know the answer to the question.

And my question was not simply to you about this one brother and one situation. I find that it is a systemic problem with so many evangelicals when they try to do "service." They feel compelled to insist that it either be open to them preaching the gospel or they will have nothing to do with it.

I know many who have moved away from that. And I hope more of us will over time.

We should be willing to love our neighbor.

Period.

No strings attached.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

We should be willing to love our neighbor.

Period.

No strings attached.

Reading some of these last posts I was thinking of the "Good Samaritan". We all know the story. The part that may apply here might be the fact that the Samaritan didn't preach the gospel to the wounded man. (In fact, we know from the story of the Samaritan "women at the well" the Samaritans didn't even have the true gospel to preach anyway.) What he did do is "love his neighbor" in the most practical way possible. He bound up the man's wounds, and even set him up in a place to stay until he got better. As far as what is recorded, the Samaritan never asked for repayment of any kind.

Remember who passed the wounded man by before the Samaritan got there? It was "a priest" and "a Levite". I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to consider them the "evangelicals" of the day. Maybe they didn't consider this fellow as good material, so they didn't even preach the gospel to him.
-

[OBW]

Yes.

And it should be embarrassing that we evangelicals have so often rejected this clear command (and part of the Great command) and then chastised the Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, etc., for their obedience to it.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

And my question was not simply to you about this one brother and one situation. I find that it is a systemic problem with so many evangelicals when they try to do "service." They feel compelled to insist that it either be open to them preaching the gospel or they will have nothing to do with it.

I know many who have moved away from that. And I hope more of us will over time.

We should be willing to love our neighbor.

Period.

No strings attached.

I guess we should do all the good we can to all we can. If it involves food, a listening ear, giving people rides great; if at times the gospel is also provided along with those things that's good too.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I guess we should do all the good we can to all we can. If it involves food, a listening ear, giving people rides great; if at times the gospel is also provided along with those things that's good too.

Brother John Wesley says it better.

“Do all the good you can. By all the means you can. In all the ways you can. In all the places you can. At all the times you can. To all the people you can. As long as ever you can.”


― (attributed to) John Wesley

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Brother John Wesley says it better.

“Do all the good you can. By all the means you can. In all the ways you can. In all the places you can. At all the times you can. To all the people you can. As long as ever you can.”


― John Wesley

Well, after some research it turns out that Wesley really never said this! One researcher says it was first attributed to Wesley in 1903. I'm throwing out the first hits from Google claiming the author of a quote!

[HERn]

A brother who attends our One Another Group has been hosting a group of Seventh Day Adventists in his home while they plant a new church in our city. The One Another Group meeting has been at his home several times and the SDA believers attend our group meeting. I've noticed a trend of the comments from the SDA to be in a teaching mode always pointing back to something in Leviticus or the Law. Last Thursday night after some SDA comments I pushed back and said that Christ was the fullfillment of the Law and that Christ had accomplished everything. The SDA sister pushed back and then I responded that Paul in Galations and the first church council had dealt with the issue of the Law and gentiles. On Saturday at a church workday I apologized to the brother for being rude to a guest in his home. He told me that the SDA sister had been leading them in bible study every morning and really knew the bible. I told him that we would not longer attend the group meeting at his house when she was there. Tonight at a group party I apologized to his wife. I then found out that this brother had been raised as a SDA. Anyway, this is our first "doctrinal issue" at our new church and I don't know if I should discuss it with one of the Pastors.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

A brother who attends our One Another Group has been hosting a group of Seventh Day Adventists in his home while they plant a new church in our city. The One Another Group meeting has been at his home several times and the SDA believers attend our group meeting. I've noticed a trend of the comments from the SDA to be in a teaching mode always pointing back to something in Leviticus or the Law. Last Thursday night after some SDA comments I pushed back and said that Christ was the fullfillment of the Law and that Christ had accomplished everything. The SDA sister pushed back and then I responded that Paul in Galations and the first church council had dealt with the issue of the Law and gentiles. On Saturday at a church workday I apologized to the brother for being rude to a guest in his home. He told me that the SDA sister had been leading them in bible study every morning and really knew the bible. I told him that we would not longer attend the group meeting at his house when she was there. Tonight at a group party I apologized to his wife. I then found out that this brother had been raised as a SDA. Anyway, this is our first "doctrinal issue" at our new church and I don't know if I should discuss it with one of the Pastors.

The LAW has always been a major confusion for Christians. Many Pentacostals are going back to celebrate Jewish holidays. The pastors cherry pick what they like from the OT, like tithing, in order to finance their programs. Most believers just dont understand that the O.T. wad not written to the church, but to Israel.

The O. T. is FOR us but not written TO us. The N. T. is written TO us.

[HERn]

Well, I just re-read Galations in the Living Bible and it's as clear as the bulbous nose on my face. I really don't care if some want to have church meetings on Saturday, Friday, or any day; and I really don't care if some feel like they should be careful to keep the various laws and precepts; but I'll be damned before I let someone convince me that God has more love for those that do than for those that don't. Same goes for the Lee-ites who think God is more pleased with them than the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant (are there any other broad Christian groups that I forgot to insult?) "slobs" down the street. Sorry for the bad attitude.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, I just re-read Galations in the Living Bible and it's as clear as the bulbous nose on my face. I really don't care if some want to have church meetings on Saturday, Friday, or any day; and I really don't care if some feel like they should be careful to keep the various laws and precepts; but I'll be damned before I let someone convince me that God has more love for those that do than for those that don't. Same goes for the Lee-ites who think God is more pleased with them than the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant (are there any other broad Christian groups that I forgot to insult?) "slobs" down the street. Sorry for the bad attitude.

I was duped once while trying to be nice to a bunch of Lee-ites, but never again, God willing. Testallthings is a good approach to take. It really does matter what you allow yourself to believe.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

A brother who attends our One Another Group has been hosting a group of Seventh Day Adventists in his home while they plant a new church in our city. The One Another Group meeting has been at his home several times and the SDA believers attend our group meeting. I've noticed a trend of the comments from the SDA to be in a teaching mode always pointing back to something in Leviticus or the Law. Last Thursday night after some SDA comments I pushed back and said that Christ was the fullfillment of the Law and that Christ had accomplished everything. The SDA sister pushed back and then I responded that Paul in Galations and the first church council had dealt with the issue of the Law and gentiles. On Saturday at a church workday I apologized to the brother for being rude to a guest in his home. He told me that the SDA sister had been leading them in bible study every morning and really knew the bible. I told him that we would not longer attend the group meeting at his house when she was there. Tonight at a group party I apologized to his wife. I then found out that this brother had been raised as a SDA. Anyway, this is our first "doctrinal issue" at our new church and I don't know if I should discuss it with one of the Pastors.

Holy smokes! Check this out. While reading up on SDA I came across this website that described deceptive practices like the LSM CoC practice. http://www.nonsda.org/study12.shtml

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

Holy smokes! Check this out.

The SDA practices are based upon concealment, which is definitely reminiscent of ICOC, the LC CoC, the Mormons, and even the EL spin-off from the Shouters. First get contact, even through artificial means (the end justifies the ways) then sort out the gullible ones (e.g. 'positive contacts') who'll take in the lies.

I would argue that the true gospel is simple and transparent. There is nothing hidden, no arcane final secrets. Yet it goes progressively deeper; yet as you go deeper, you go deeper into the bare, simple truth which was once revealed to all, and for all. Those who are in the darkness can't see this, is all. There is nothing to hide, no "hidden history".

God dwells in unapproachable light; God doesn't hide in the darkness.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

The SDA practices are based upon concealment, which is definitely reminiscent of ICOC, the LC CoC, the Mormons, and even the EL spin-off from the Shouters. First get contact, even through artificial means (the end justifies the ways) then sort out the gullible ones (e.g. 'positive contacts') who'll take in the lies.

I would argue that the true gospel is simple and transparent. There is nothing hidden, no arcane final secrets. Yet it goes progressively deeper; yet as you go deeper, you go deeper into the bare, simple truth which was once revealed to all, and for all. Those who are in the darkness can't see this, is all. There is nothing to hide, no "hidden history".

God dwells in unapproachable light; God doesn't hide in the darkness.

Right. The apostles preached Christ, and this one crucified... and themselves as servants for the churches' sake. Thanks, Aron. All that makes manifest is light.

[HERn]

I visited the homeless thing tonight. The brother and his wife hosted a movie "Ring the Bell" and about 20 people were there. Before the movie the brother preached a 3 minute homily and after the movie the sister preached a homily. Then they prayed with several of them. The grounds used to be an old prison so the movie was shown in what was going the prison chapel. There was no food, just snacks. There were areas on the ground where tents were set up. There was a mix of people at the movie. Mostly older, white and male. But there were blacks and females. Some looked intelligent others looked slow. These are not good building material according to religion, but I could imagine Jesus being there. The term "the least of these" comes to mind.

Originally Posted by HERn

I visited the homeless thing tonight. The brother and his wife hosted a movie "Ring the Bell" and about 20 people were there. Before the movie the brother preached a 3 minute homily and after the movie the sister preached a homily. Then they prayed with several of them. The grounds used to be an old prison so the movie was shown in what was going the prison chapel. There was no food, just snacks. There were areas on the ground where tents were set up. There was a mix of people at the movie. Mostly older, white and male. But there were blacks and females. Some looked intelligent others looked slow. These are not good building material according to religion, but I could imagine Jesus being there. The term "the least of these" comes to mind.

Sounds like a place Jesus could come too. "Wherever two or more are gathered in My name, there I am in their midst." Sounds like that happened.

Peter and Andrew (commercial fisherman who didn't make it into schools), the woman at the well (divorced six times and living with another man), Mary the prostitute, Levi/Matthew the tax collector, Saul of Tarsus who persecuted the saints and dragged them and their families off to prison, John/Mark who quit on Paul... I could go on "not good material". Neither were we. But, Jesus has the power to forgive and transform. Praise Him!

[NewManLiving]

Yes (brother?) To the Lord they were all "good material". Too bad LSM mis-aimed. Their over-emphasis on good material is really unbelief. I suggest they pray read Hebrews: Tempted in all ways; learned obedience through the things which He suffered. Passed through the heavens to provide us access to the Holy of Holies where we receive Grace and Mercy for timely help. Intercedes for us as our great High Priest, Great Apostle and Great Shepherd. Able to sympathize with our sufferings and give comfort. Now this is The Christ! not some "process" or "dispensing". It is all about His Glory! Glorify Thyself Lord in all those YOU have chosen!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I visited the homeless thing tonight. The brother and his wife hosted a movie "Ring the Bell" and about 20 people were there. Before the movie the brother preached a 3 minute homily and after the movie the sister preached a homily. Then they prayed with several of them. The grounds used to be an old prison so the movie was shown in what was going the prison chapel. There was no food, just snacks. There were areas on the ground where tents were set up. There was a mix of people at the movie. Mostly older, white and male. But there were blacks and females. Some looked intelligent others looked slow. These are not good building material according to religion, but I could imagine Jesus being there. The term "the least of these" comes to mind.

I think the brother and sister were providing Christian or church care for folks that had no way to travel to a church and enter into middle-class church life. They don't have cars, some have bikes. I'm glad that some are burdened for the college age and that some care for the so-called "losers".

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Yes (brother?) To the Lord they were all "good material". Too bad LSM mis-aimed. Their over-emphasis on good material is really unbelief. I suggest they pray read Hebrews: Tempted in all ways; learned obedience through the things which He suffered. Passed through the heavens to provide us access to the Holy of Holies where we receive Grace and Mercy for timely help. Intercedes for us as our great High Priest, Great Apostle and Great Shepherd. Able to sympathize with our sufferings and give comfort. Now this is The Christ! not some "process" or "dispensing". It is all about His Glory! Glorify Thyself Lord in all those YOU have chosen!

Yes, I'm a brother in Christ by His mercy and grace.
Like Hern and the apostle Paul I rejoice whenever and however Christ is preached.

[NewManLiving]

I'm not too sure that is what the LC is preaching. Paul was speaking about Christ. Not exalting a ministry and/or person over Christ. Some preach "Christ" for "whatever reason"; in this case some preach other things. If Christ was strongly preached in LSM churches, regardless of their motives, instead of a ministry and a man, people who "wake" up "leave" would simply follow the Lord elsewhere. But many leave Christ as well since they were never properly rooted and grounded. It's unhealthy. Just read the history of churches in China and make a comparison. The same thing happened -many were shipwrecked

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I'm not too sure that is what the LC is preaching. Paul was speaking about Christ. Not exalting a ministry and/or person over Christ. Some preach "Christ" for "whatever reason"; in this case some preach other things. If Christ was strongly preached in LSM churches, regardless of their motives, instead of a ministry and a man, people who "wake" up "leave" would simply follow the Lord elsewhere. But many leave Christ as well since they were never properly rooted and grounded. It's unhealthy. Just read the history of churches in China and make a comparison. The same thing happened -many were shipwrecked

This is one of the things that makes me believe that the recovery is false: If Christ can't have you in the recovery, then you are not His and He does not want you. I don't know if we are, but why are we on this forum "outliers" in the dataset of saints who have left the recovery and continued on with the Lord? Does anyone know the percentage of liberated LC saints that go on with the Lord in other denominations other than the LSM LCs?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Does anyone know the percentage of liberated LC saints that go on with the Lord in other denominations other than the LSM LCs?

Why use the word denominations unless you've reached to point to accept everyone is denominated? Denominations is the code word LCers use when speaking of Christians outside LSM fellowship.
Going on, the number of former LCers going on with non-LSM churches has probably exceeded current membership of LSM churches.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

Why use the word denominations unless you've reached to point to accept everyone is denominated? Denominations is the code word LCers use when speaking of Christians outside LSM fellowship.
Going on, the number of former LCers going on with non-LSM churches has probably exceeded current membership of LSM churches.

That is good news! From the comments on this forum I thought that most who leave the denomination known as the lords recovery never go on with the Lord, just like Benson says.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

That is good news! From the comments on this forum I thought that most who leave the denomination known as the lords recovery never go on with the Lord, just like Benson says.

Unless Benson equates salvation as receiving Living Stream Ministry publications...
No! Those that have received Jesus Christ as our savior will tend to have the experience wherever life takes us, we belong to the Lord. Never going on with the Lord just isn't an option.

[JJ]

From memory Witness Lee defined the Lord's recovery as the recovery of Christ as everything for producing and building up of the body of Christ, which is expressed as local churches in each city. The problem I see is that Christ isn't everything in today's "recovery". He was pushed aside for Brother Lee love vs. brotherly love.

[JJ]

I don't consider myself to be in a denomination today, but I was in one. The church of brother Lee and brother Nee.

The church I am in meets in the name of Jesus, doesn't uplift the ministry of one or two ministers of Christ above others, has fellowship with all genuine members of the one body of Christ, and builds it up locally, regionally, and on the whole earth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

From memory Witness Lee defined the Lord's recovery as the recovery of Christ as everything for producing and building up of the body of Christ, which is expressed as local churches in each city. The problem I see is that Christ isn't everything in today's "recovery". He was pushed aside for Brother Lee love vs. brotherly love.

Lee equated the building up of the body with the building up of his ministry. I still can't believe he could not or would not distinguish the two.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by JJ

Brother Lee love vs. brotherly love.

Reminds me of someone almost 10 years ago that was constantly making reference to things like heavenLee, certainLee, awfulLee, etc. Anything ending in "ly" was switched to end in "Lee."

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I don't consider myself to be in a denomination today, but I was in one. The church of brother Lee and brother Nee.

The church I am in meets in the name of Jesus, doesn't uplift the ministry of one or two ministers of Christ above others, has fellowship with all genuine members of the one body of Christ, and builds it up locally, regionally, and on the whole earth.

I guess I'm a reprobate because I'm cool with denominations. I don't think the Lord sees them, I think He just sees His church and those that love Him.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

Reminds me of someone almost 10 years ago that was constantly making reference to things like heavenLee, certainLee, awfulLee, etc. Anything ending in "ly" was switched to end in "Lee."

Maybe the worship of WL was mostly on the west coast because I don't remember hearing that kind of heresy.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

Maybe the worship of WL was mostly on the west coast because I don't remember hearing that kind of heresy.

It wasn't in the LRC. It was in the forum. It was a tongue-in-cheek mockery of Lee.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

I guess I'm a reprobate because I'm cool with denominations. I don't think the Lord sees them, I think He just sees His church and those that love Him.

The only thing wrong with denominations was that they were not under Lee's leadership. Everything he said was fantasy sold as gospel truth.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

The only thing wrong with denominations was that they were not under Lee's leadership. Everything he said was fantasy sold as gospel truth.

Or in present time not under fellowship of Living Stream Ministry. Only then is one considered not meeting in division. Additionally, those of us that have experienced the references....(for me in Puget Sound area localities and a Inland Empire locality in Southern California) Christians outside the scope of LSM-influenced local churches are in denominations

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Terry

Or in present time not under fellowship of Living Stream Ministry. Only then is one considered not meeting in division. Additionally, those of us that have experienced the references....(for me in Puget Sound area localities and a Inland Empire locality in Southern California) Christians outside the scope of LSM-influenced local churches are in denominations

The irony of all this is the fact that LSM is one of the most, if not the most, exclusive denominations on earth. All based upon some extreme view of the ground of locality. Its no wonder that Paul does not include the "ground of locality" in the requirements of common faith that is presented in Ephesians. This concept either did not exist in doctrine or he had the foresight to know it would just bring an extreme type of division. My guess is that there never was such a doctrine since none is explicitly mentioned.
The LSM makes such a big deal out of it and then determines who is and who is not meeting on this so-called ground. Of course all those who do not accept the blendeds as God's authority are automatically in division. The tricks the mind can play on people over time.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. We were not called in "one city" or one "local ground". How this became such an issue is anyone's guess. Paul mentions a number of critical factors which are far more important. LSM does not seem to even care about these things. Without their pet doctrine their whole authoritative system would crumble.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The irony of all this is the fact that LSM is one of the most, if not the most, exclusive denominations on earth. All based upon some extreme view of the ground of locality. Its no wonder that Paul does not include the "ground of locality" in the requirements of common faith that is presented in Ephesians. This concept either did not exist in doctrine or he had the foresight to know it would just bring an extreme type of division. My guess is that there never was such a doctrine since none is explicitly mentioned.
The LSM makes such a big deal out of it and then determines who is and who is not meeting on this so-called ground. Of course all those who do not accept the blendeds as God's authority are automatically in division. The tricks the mind can play on people over time.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. We were not called in "one city" or one "local ground". How this became such an issue is anyone's guess. Paul mentions a number of critical factors which are far more important. LSM does not seem to even care about these things. Without their pet doctrine their whole authoritative system would crumble.

NewManLiving, besides what I have witnessed over the 40+ years since I contacted the LC's, and the many stories I have heard and read from others here on the forums, LC leaders never honored their own pet doctrine of one church one city. In a word, the doctrine is a complete farce used only to justify their incessant condemnations on all other Christians.

It was written in a book TNCCL by Nee. Many Christians back in the 60's were enamored by its idealistic concepts. Lee used their interest to capture their attention. End of story.

Secondly, none of the many storms and divisions in TLR, which Titus Chu aptly used to call "self-destructs," could be justified by that book. On the contrary, that book by Nee condemned Lee for every action he took in those "storms." Anyone who would have read that book in the last quarter century would realize that the whole one church one city teaching was nothing more than a ruse. I know I did, and boy was I shocked.

[HERn]

Just got back from the Friday night movie event for the homeless. Most sleep in tents, some under a roof in sleeping bags. Last week I noticed the snacks were all bagged chips, so I thought I would bring some fruit tonight. The oranges and apples were all taken. I think I'll bring more next time. The brother and his wife preached short sermons like last week. The brother told me he struggles with depression, but here he is pouring out the Love of Jesus. Saw different people this week. I'm going to ask the brother why he does this. He coordinates with some Assembly of God brothers for baptisms and Sunday services. This looks like more real blending than the LSM LCs ever had.

[HERn]

Since I left the recovery I'm trying to find some Christian friends, which is why I'm getting involved in different things. Once the brothers realized that I was negative and an opposer they stopped contacting me. That's OK. I need to be free from them.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Once the brothers realized that I was negative and an opposer they stopped contacting me.

It's all relative. It's not so much you're negative, but your conscience is not at peace.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The irony of all this is the fact that LSM is one of the most, if not the most, exclusive denominations on earth. All based upon some extreme view of the ground of locality. Its no wonder that Paul does not include the "ground of locality" in the requirements of common faith that is presented in Ephesians. This concept either did not exist in doctrine or he had the foresight to know it would just bring an extreme type of division. My guess is that there never was such a doctrine since none is explicitly mentioned.
The LSM makes such a big deal out of it and then determines who is and who is not meeting on this so-called ground. Of course all those who do not accept the blendeds as God's authority are automatically in division. The tricks the mind can play on people over time.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. We were not called in "one city" or one "local ground". How this became such an issue is anyone's guess. Paul mentions a number of critical factors which are far more important. LSM does not seem to even care about these things. Without their pet doctrine their whole authoritative system would crumble.

We can quote Ephesians 4:4-6 all day long. In the mind of a LSM apologist, LSM should be included also.
Before 10 years ago it wasn't so transparent as it is now. Presently, it is all so clear "the ground" of LSM churches is not Christ, but Living Stream Ministry. That is the basis of these churches to have fellowship with each other. Thus LSM is the common denominator each of the LSM churches have in common.
Local churches that don't receive LSM are not received as local churches. That is a clear indicator Christ is not the ground of the Local churches. Otherwise the Church in Bellevue should be able to receive the Church in Moses Lake. The Church in Chicago should be able to receive the Church in Toronto. Moreover, what is the heart attitude towards your fellow brothers and sisters in your own cities. It's as if LSM local churches practice isolationism. They won't have any Christian fellowship with brothers and sisters in their cities, unless the fellowship is based on LSM publications.
For all intent and purposes, they are adding to what is spoken in Ephesians 4:4-6.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee equated the building up of the body with the building up of his ministry. I still can't believe he could not or would not distinguish the two.

Yes, a good lesson for us not to repeat that history.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

We can quote Ephesians 4:4-6 all day long. In the mind of a LSM apologist, LSM should be included also.
Before 10 years ago it wasn't so transparent as it is now. Presently, it is all so clear "the ground" of LSM churches is not Christ, but Living Stream Ministry. That is the basis of these churches to have fellowship with each other. Thus LSM is the common denominator each of the LSM churches have in common.
Local churches that don't receive LSM are not received as local churches. That is a clear indicator Christ is not the ground of the Local churches. Otherwise the Church in Bellevue should be able to receive the Church in Moses Lake. The Church in Chicago should be able to receive the Church in Toronto. Moreover, what is the heart attitude towards your fellow brothers and sisters in your own cities. It's as if LSM local churches practice isolationism. They won't have any Christian fellowship with brothers and sisters in their cities, unless the fellowship is based on LSM publications.
For all intent and purposes, they are adding to what is spoken in Ephesians 4:4-6.

Well said. While in one breath "everyone who has received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is a member of the body", in another breath it is "only fellowship with those in the local churches who base their church life on our ministry". That is not the blending of the body, and fosters weird and unhealthy mutations (like what happens in the Ozarks when people marry their own relatives for generations).

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

The SDA practices are based upon concealment, which is definitely reminiscent of ICOC, the LC CoC, the Mormons, and even the EL spin-off from the Shouters. First get contact, even through artificial means (the end justifies the ways) then sort out the gullible ones (e.g. 'positive contacts') who'll take in the lies.

I would argue that the true gospel is simple and transparent. There is nothing hidden, no arcane final secrets. Yet it goes progressively deeper; yet as you go deeper, you go deeper into the bare, simple truth which was once revealed to all, and for all. Those who are in the darkness can't see this, is all. There is nothing to hide, no "hidden history".

God dwells in unapproachable light; God doesn't hide in the darkness.

Found this while researching SDA.

http://prod.tms.edu/preachersandprea...day-adventism/

The professor said that one thing keeps the SDA in the Christian "cult" domain is their equating the writings of E. White on the same level as scripture and then using the writings as a lens to understand the bible. To me this sounds a lot like using the "ministry" as an "opener" for the bible as preached by the blendeds.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

It's all relative. It's not so much you're negative, but your conscience is not at peace.

I have a problem with agreeing with the term "negative and opposer" for a brother calling for biblical church teaching and practice. Paul used the word opposer for those who opposed the healthy teaching of the apostles, as is now written in the New Testament, and in particular preached licentious living and/or themselves as Lord of all.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

NewManLiving, besides what I have witnessed over the 40+ years since I contacted the LC's, and the many stories I have heard and read from others here on the forums, LC leaders never honored their own pet doctrine of one church one city. In a word, the doctrine is a complete farce used only to justify their incessant condemnations on all other Christians.

It was written in a book TNCCL by Nee. Many Christians back in the 60's were enamored by its idealistic concepts. Lee used their interest to capture their attention. End of story.

Secondly, none of the many storms and divisions in TLR, which Titus Chu aptly used to call "self-destructs," could be justified by that book. On the contrary, that book by Nee condemned Lee for every action he took in those "storms." Anyone who would have read that book in the last quarter century would realize that the whole one church one city teaching was nothing more than a ruse. I know I did, and boy was I shocked.

I'm having a really hard time with throwing out "one church one city", as I see that is what the first generation of apostles established. I just don't think it has been practiced with the spirit of love and safeguards on apostles who fall in love with themselves and desire to lord it over the churches as the kings of the nations do.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm having a really hard time with throwing out "one church one city", as I see that is what the first generation of apostles established. I just don't think it has been practiced with the spirit of love and safeguards on apostles who fall in love with themselves and desire to lord it over the churches as the kings of the nations do.

JJ, "one church one city" is one of many things described in some places of the Bible but not prescribed. There are a number of places (cities) where it did not occur.

Acts 9.31 Church is singular for a region rather than plural churches.

Colossians 4.15-16 indicates that there was a church in Laodicea and also a church in the house of Nymphas.

Paul's letter to the Romans also identifies a church in the house of Prisca and Aquila. (16.5)

I Corinthians 16.9 identifies another church in the house of Prisca and Aquila.

Now we heard for years that these house churches were "one city one church" meeting in a house, but this is questionable and not definitive.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm having a really hard time with throwing out "one church one city", as I see that is what the first generation of apostles established. I just don't think it has been practiced with the spirit of love and safeguards on apostles who fall in love with themselves and desire to lord it over the churches as the kings of the nations do.

Where does it say that they practiced it? The letters are "addressed" to either the city or the home in which the church was assembled. This makes perfect sense even from a geographical standpoint. However, there is no other indication that this was some kind of doctrine that defines the oneness of the Body of Christ and therefore should be strictly adhered to. Ephesians and other letters are quite emphatic that it does not define our oneness simply by omitting it from the common faith. Paul was a wise man. He knew perfectly well that it is the Spirit that defines and guarantees our oneness. The only problem then and today is that people have a bad habit and a long history of quenching the Spirit and forming a religion = LSM.

Now there is nothing wrong with meeting in a city or home even as a practice. Look at the local churches that were raised up in India apart from LSM. They also have the concept of a city but they are one with all saints in that city and attempt to reach out to them. Of course this put LSM between a rock and a hard place so they decided to use one of their tried-and-true, underhanded tactics of simply going in covertly as just "simple lovers of Jesus" and systematically began shoving Witness Lee down everyone's throat. And they had some amount of success. The ones that realized what was going on were quickly labeled opposers, negative, lepers. The usual garbage. There is not one instance of the locality doctrine that has not eventually caused the worst kind of exclusivity and division. Now perhaps the Lord is working in India since LSM pretty much destroyed His work here. Let's see what happens.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Yes (brother?) To the Lord they were all "good material". Too bad LSM mis-aimed. Their over-emphasis on good material is really unbelief.

Since we are on the topic of "good material," I just came across notes from an old message given by Chuck Debelek in Cleveland early 1999 shortly after he returned from Anaheim. Here's a few random points from my notes:

Romans 2.4 shows us the kindness of God leads to repentance. Our attitude and behavior towards others shows us how much we enjoy the Lord's love in kindness and longsuffering. What kind of God would love us as sinners (Rom 5.8) and then reject us as sons of God. Love, to every Christian, is indispensable.

God has ordained our family, parents, environment, etc. If God wanted us all the same, He would have created us that way. God is cultivating a unique relationship with each one of us that cannot be reproduced. Be careful about so-called "good material" or "bad material" which God has created to His own glory and placed in the body as He chooses.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since we are on the topic of "good material," I just came across notes from an old message given by Chuck Debelek in Cleveland early 1999 shortly after he returned from Anaheim. Here's a few random points from my notes:

Romans 2.4 shows us the kindness of God leads to repentance. Our attitude and behavior towards others shows us how much we enjoy the Lord's love in kindness and longsuffering. What kind of God would love us as sinners (Rom 5.8) and then reject us as sons of God. Love, to every Christian, is indispensable.

God has ordained our family, parents, environment, etc. If God wanted us all the same, He would have created us that way. God is cultivating a unique relationship with each one of us that cannot be reproduced. Be careful about so-called "good material" or "bad material" which God has created to His own glory and placed in the body as He chooses.

Amen! He will have mercy upon whom He desires. It is for His own glory. The concept of good material is derived from a business model. LSM is a business. Their associated churches are business churches that support the business.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Where does it say that they practiced it? The letters are "addressed" to either the city or the home in which the church was assembled. This makes perfect sense even from a geographical standpoint. However, there is no other indication that this was some kind of doctrine that defines the oneness of the Body of Christ and therefore should be strictly adhered to. Ephesians and other letters are quite emphatic that it does not define our oneness simply by omitting it from the common faith. Paul was a wise man. He knew perfectly well that it is the Spirit that defines and guarantees our oneness. The only problem then and today is that people have a bad habit and a long history of quenching the Spirit and forming a religion = LSM.

Now there is nothing wrong with meeting in a city or home even as a practice. Look at the local churches that were raised up in India apart from LSM. They also have the concept of a city but they are one with all saints in that city and attempt to reach out to them. Of course this put LSM between a rock and a hard place so they decided to use one of their tried-and-true, underhanded tactics of simply going in covertly as just "simple lovers of Jesus" and systematically began shoving Witness Lee down everyone's throat. And they had some amount of success. The ones that realized what was going on were quickly labeled opposers, negative, lepers. The usual garbage. There is not one instance of the locality doctrine that has not eventually caused the worst kind of exclusivity and division. Now perhaps the Lord is working in India since LSM pretty much destroyed His work here. Let's see what happens.

I think of it more as "where didn't they practice it" (one church one city), even where there were multiple meetings like Jerusalem. But the first generation also had many apostles who traveled, preached, wrote, and loved on the churches together. And, when there was a controversy, they would get together and discuss it, see what the Holy Spirit was doing and what scripture said, not sue or "blackball" other believers, and certainly not cover-up unholy, unrighteous behavior without demanding repentance.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

JJ, "one church one city" is one of many things described in some places of the Bible but not prescribed. There are a number of places (cities) where it did not occur.

Acts 9.31 Church is singular for a region rather than plural churches.

Colossians 4.15-16 indicates that there was a church in Laodicea and also a church in the house of Nymphas.

Paul's letter to the Romans also identifies a church in the house of Prisca and Aquila. (16.5)

I Corinthians 16.9 identifies another church in the house of Prisca and Aquila.

Now we heard for years that these house churches were "one city one church" meeting in a house, but this is questionable and not definitive.

Good points, Ohio. It doesn't say what the churches in the houses called themselves, does it? I only presume they were part of "the church" in their city. But, I still don't see where a church called itself something else other than the church in that city.

I do agree that the oneness, is the oneness of the Spirit as described in Ephesians, which we have and must be diligent to keep as we bear one another in love. Ephesians also has the oneness of the faith and full knowledge of Christ that we all attain to. I'm not aware of the "oneness of the teaching".

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by JJ

Good points, Ohio. It doesn't say what the churches in the houses called themselves, does it? I only presume they were part of "the church" in their city. But, I still don't see where a church called itself something else other than the church in that city".

Well again where did the church call itself anything? From what I could see the term simply indicated where they lived... And certain men came "from" James... and certain men which came down "from" Judea. To the saints which are "in" Ephesus. That is their location. They were Ephesians, Corinthians, etc... Non members are also identified with their city. They did not "practice" nor did they "call" each other by the city name. Its just to identify where they lived or met-nothing more. Something that important would have certainly been indicated by the Holy Spirit. Not left so vague. We are limited to space and time. Everyone has an address.

John from Derby CT and the Church which meets on Mountain Road in Seymour wish you well!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Good points, Ohio. It doesn't say what the churches in the houses called themselves, does it? I only presume they were part of "the church" in their city. But, I still don't see where a church called itself something else other than the church in that city.

To be honest with you, JJ, I did not accept the teaching of "one church, one city" (OCOC) based on scriptural evidence alone, but on the supposed reputations of Nee and Lee provided to me by the brothers in the church in Cleveland, i.e. they were great men of God, raised up by the Lord to recover lost truths, including the oneness of the believers.

As soon as I learned about Lee's real character (in 2006, after serving in the LC's for 3 decades) surrounding the many "storms" in his ministry, I decided to examine all of his exclusive teachings, as the Bible says, "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21)

Brother John Myer of Columbus, in his monumental e-book A Future and a Hope, regarding leaving the LSM program, wrote the best line: "There is more support in the Bible for head covering than there is for the LC teaching of one church, one city."

Furthermore, regarding the teaching of OCOC, there has never been a Christian (not Brethren, not China, not Taiwan, not USA) group who have actually practiced this in a healthy way. Oneness is a reality that is a fruit of love. Nee and Lee's OCOC doctrine of oneness is based upon the condemnation of all Christians for their supposed "failures," not actually on God's love. How can that be any good? In fact, I believe distorted oneness (think "catholic" oneness, and the inquisitions of the dark ages) has been the most destructive heresy in church history. Millions of genuine children of God have died by the hands of its proponents.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm not aware of the "oneness of the teaching".

Is that something I said?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Amen! He will have mercy upon whom He desires. It is for His own glory. The concept of good material is derived from a business model. LSM is a business. Their associated churches are business churches that support the business.

Exactly! Good material I tend to see as those identified based education and or profession for financial support for the local church.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Be careful about so-called "good material" or "bad material" which God has created to His own glory and placed in the body as He chooses.
[/INDENT]

Agreed! Growing up I had a cousin two years younger than I. In early adulthood, he got into trouble with the law and subsequently spent many years in prison. Would he be someone identified as good material? Surely not. Just by his tattoo's alone would be enough to make people squirm into their seats. Yet in recent years since leaving prison my cousin did receive the Lord and was baptized.
Who are we to determine who is good material or not good material? Could be a company CEO, a homeless man, or even a Harley riding biker.

Ephesians 1:4-7
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

Agreed! Growing up I had a cousin two years younger than I. In early adulthood, he got into trouble with the law and subsequently spent many years in prison. Would he be someone identified as good material? Surely not. Just by his tattoo's alone would be enough to make people squirm into their seats. Yet in recent years since leaving prison my cousin did receive the Lord and was baptized.
Who are we to determine who is good material or not good material? Could be a company CEO, a homeless man, or even a Harley riding biker.

Ephesians 1:4-7
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

I can testify that God can and has saved many Harley riding bikers and made them fruitful members of His body. One of them, a former hells-angel gang member was in my church Bible study, and was one of the best evangelists I've ever met. God came to him in the pit of hell, saved him, and began a transformation. He has now gone to be with the Lord, but he couldn't not preach Jesus wherever he went. He led many to the Lord and to grow in Him, because he could relate to a section of society, and vice-versa that other believers couldn't.

I also was in a pit of hell before Christ came to me. It just had a better outward appearance (suburban neighborhood), but inside I was just as messed up. And, all of us were. There is none righteous, not one. For all have sinned and fall short of His glory. God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that something I said?

No. I just say that because that approach has been tried over and over again throughout the centuries, and produced spectacular failures over and over again, except when the teaching is the Word of God itself.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To be honest with you, JJ, I did not accept the teaching of "one church, one city" (OCOC) based on scriptural evidence alone, but on the supposed reputations of Nee and Lee provided to me by the brothers in the church in Cleveland, i.e. they were great men of God, raised up by the Lord to recover lost truths, including the oneness of the believers.

As soon as I learned about Lee's real character (in 2006, after serving in the LC's for 3 decades) surrounding the many "storms" in his ministry, I decided to examine all of his exclusive teachings, as the Bible says, "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21)

Brother John Myer of Columbus, in his monumental e-book A Future and a Hope, regarding leaving the LSM program, wrote the best line: "There is more support in the Bible for head covering than there is for the LC teaching of one church, one city."

Furthermore, regarding the teaching of OCOC, there has never been a Christian (not Brethren, not China, not Taiwan, not USA) group who have actually practiced this in a healthy way. Oneness is a reality that is a fruit of love. Nee and Lee's OCOC doctrine of oneness is based upon the condemnation of all Christians for their supposed "failures," not actually on God's love. How can that be any good? In fact, I believe distorted oneness (think "catholic" oneness, and the inquisitions of the dark ages) has been the most destructive heresy in church history. Millions of genuine children of God have died by the hands of its proponents.

Yes, I've seen and been on both sides of the destructive side of OCOC teaching first-hand. I accepted "The Normal Christian Church Life's explanation of its basis, as it made sense, and initially I received much blessing from the Lord in my locality when we initially practiced it. However, I didn't realize that the way we practiced it was with a spirit of superiority, pride, and meanness, until I got out and began to have good fellowship with other believers.

When we would "take the ground" in a city, we would have the spirit "we are the church, and you aren't", when that wasn't supposed to be the point. The point was supposed to be, all believers in this city are part of the church. So let's not argue over who is right doctrinally, let's just enjoy and worship Christ who is our life. But, we made "the ground of the church" a doctrine to divide us, rather than unite us.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

When we would "take the ground" in a city, we would have the spirit "we are the church, and you aren't", when that wasn't supposed to be the point. The point was supposed to be, all believers in this city are part of the church. So let's not argue over who is right doctrinally, let's just enjoy and worship Christ who is our life. But, we made "the ground of the church" a doctrine to divide us, rather than unite us.

That's still the attitude. Especially what I've seen the past 20 years in Western Washington. The definition of what the ground is especially since 10 years ago is more clear to mean Living Stream Ministry. If a locality doesn't have a LSM endorsing church, that city isn't considered to have a lampstand.
One in a local church could have the mindset of wanting all Christians to be one, but it's not possible if you mandate fellowship being based on LSM publications. Instead of a unity in Christ, there's division just as JJ posted.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes, I've seen and been on both sides of the destructive side of OCOC teaching first-hand. I accepted "The Normal Christian Church Life's explanation of its basis, as it made sense, and initially I received much blessing from the Lord in my locality when we initially practiced it. However, I didn't realize that the way we practiced it was with a spirit of superiority, pride, and meanness, until I got out and began to have good fellowship with other believers.

When we would "take the ground" in a city, we would have the spirit "we are the church, and you aren't", when that wasn't supposed to be the point. The point was supposed to be, all believers in this city are part of the church. So let's not argue over who is right doctrinally, let's just enjoy and worship Christ who is our life. But, we made "the ground of the church" a doctrine to divide us, rather than unite us.

Agreed! I was part of two migrations to start new churches, and the Lord really blessed them. Actually, I think we would have done much better without our attachment to LSM. The more we "closely followed Brother Lee," the deader things got. But no one dared to admit that.

[Bubbles!]

I'm new to this site, and really don't know what I'm doing! I've made contact with one person on "private mail," or whatever they call it here. I guess I'm in the "general forum." now, as I would put it. I picked your "thread" at random, just to see if this is how to "do it!"

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

I'm new to this site, and really don't know what I'm doing! I've made contact with one person on "private mail," or whatever they call it here. I guess I'm in the "general forum." now, as I would put it. I picked your "thread" at random, just to see if this is how to "do it!"

Hi Bubbles. I'm just a simple brother trying to go on with the Lord outside of the lords recovery. I hope you find a way out.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi Bubbles. I'm just a simple brother trying to go on with the Lord outside of the lords recovery. I hope you find a way out.

Hi Bubbles. Everyone here is very helpful. The saints are blessed to have this forum to help those who are trying to disassociate themselves with the LC ministry.

I 'hang out' with fellow believers who have left the organized, man made church. I found them through you tube mostly.

People here had been in the LC for decades possibly centuries ! Their stories will help you stop playing the broken LC record in your head.

Blessings!
Carol

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

I'm new to this site, and really don't know what I'm doing! I've made contact with one person on "private mail," or whatever they call it here. I guess I'm in the "general forum." now, as I would put it. I picked your "thread" at random, just to see if this is how to "do it!"

Hey Bubbles! Scan down a bit and you will see your post made it onto the forum! YOU CAN DO IT BRO!

When you get a chance, go to the main forum Homepage, hit the
"Introductions And Testimonies To View All Posts or Post Your own Testimony, Click Here!" button and then hit "New Thread" and fire away.

Here's a link to that particular forum:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...isplay.php?f=9

-

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's still the attitude. Especially what I've seen the past 20 years in Western Washington. The definition of what the ground is especially since 10 years ago is more clear to mean Living Stream Ministry. If a locality doesn't have a LSM endorsing church, that city isn't considered to have a lampstand.
One in a local church could have the mindset of wanting all Christians to be one, but it's not possible if you mandate fellowship being based on LSM publications. Instead of a unity in Christ, there's division just as JJ posted.

How is that enforced, Terry? I've seen the same thing practically in California as well, but never understood why the saints wouldn't share more from their time with the Lord in the Word and enjoyment of Christ versus verbatim sharing from HWFMR or repeating lines from the Hymn book.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

How is that enforced, Terry? I've seen the same thing practically in California as well, but never understood why the saints wouldn't share more from their time with the Lord in the Word and enjoyment of Christ versus verbatim sharing from HWFMR or repeating lines from the Hymn book.

Peer pressure mostly. Whether it's speaking something positive intended to edify from HWFMR or speaking something negative in besmirching non-LSM Christians. Peer pressure is present and not to oppose the positive/negative speaking.

Once in a while someone will want to speak from the Bible. It's tolerated, but not condemned nor encouraged. An elder will usually re-direct the prophesying meeting back towards HWFMR.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

Peer pressure mostly. Whether it's speaking something positive intended to edify from HWFMR or speaking something negative in besmirching non-LSM Christians. Peer pressure is present and not to oppose the positive/negative speaking.

Once in a while someone will want to speak from the Bible. It's tolerated, but not condemned nor encouraged. An elder will usually re-direct the prophesying meeting back towards HWFMR.

Thanks for your answer Terry. I see that you tried to instant message me, but my pop-up blocker isn't allowing it. Sorry about that.

I mostly missed meetings and conferences from 1985 to 2005, and was mystified by the reduction in genuine rejoicing in the Lord over that gap. When I attended meetings from 2005 to 2015 I tried many times to speak with enjoyment from the light of the Lord coming directly through the verses I had been reading during the week at the Lord's table and prophesying meeting, and it often went over like a lead balloon with most of the saints (though a few responded), and I never knew why.

Until I came to these message boards, I couldn't find anyone else willing to talk about it. So, I'm grateful to have some company. My real interest is in moving forward.

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the idea that only LSM-associated venues produce sisters who sing in the Spirit.

*https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMPNXXnCls

Lauren Daigle


"Trust In You"

Letting go of every single dream
I lay each one down at Your feet*
Every moment of my wandering
Never changes what You see

I’ve tried to win this war I confess
My hands are weary I need Your rest
Mighty Warrior, King of the fight
No matter what I face, You’re by my side

When You don’t move the mountains I’m needing You to move
When You don’t part the waters I wish I could walk through
When You don’t give the answers as I cry out to You
I will trust, I will trust, I will trust in You!

Truth is, You know what tomorrow brings*
There’s not a day ahead You have not seen
So, in all things be my life and breath
I want what You want Lord and nothing less

When You don’t move the mountains I’m needing You to move
When You don’t part the waters I wish I could walk through
When You don’t give the answers as I cry out to You
I will trust, I will trust, I will trust in You!

You are my strength and comfort
You are my steady hand
You are my firm foundation; the rock on which I stand

Your ways are always higher
Your plans are always good
There’s not a place where I’ll go, You’ve not already stood

When You don’t move the mountains I’m needing You to move
When You don’t part the waters I wish I could walk through
When You don’t give the answers as I cry out to You
I will trust, I will trust, I will trust in You!

I will trust in You!
I will trust in You!
I will trust in You!

[HERn]

One of the positive things about being in the LRC is that I got used to strong emotional praying, kind of like Pentecostal or charismatic. That's good because at this evening's new one another group a dear black sister prayed like a TV preacher, but it seemed real and genuine. I was saying amen (but not as loud) like in a recovery prayer meeting and was comfortable. The couple that leads the group used to serve with the Salvation Army and run the movie ministry at the homeless shelter. Maybe it's my Mississippi share cropper background, but I feel comfortable around more lower class, blue collar, black culture than the upper middle class. Jesus died and rose again for all classes, so I don't think he loves one group more than the other.

[HERn]

Although we are in a major university community the elder board has a firefighter, MD, a lower-level non-doctorate staff member, and others. No women elders yet! The deacon board has an MD, a couple of working moms, the powerful praying black sister, a black brother who is a ac mechanic at the university, and a stay at home mom. This seems like a lot of diversity to me.

[HERn]

Just came home from my first deacons meeting followed by a combined elders and deacons meeting. A couple of things caught my attention. We prayed a lot for each other and for the members. I compare that to a couple of "brothers" meetings I went to in the so called LR where we mainly analyzed the saints and invoked the ministry of WL. Tonight I learned that several local churches are praying and planning on reaching out to the Muslims in Germany...from community to baptist to family to Anglican churches. To me this is the real work of the body that Christ died for. Oh, I am so glad to be in a healthy church life!

[HERn]

Just heard that one of my family members with saints from his LC went to Germany to preach the gospel to Syrian refugees. I hope that what they preach is the gospel of Jesus and not the gospel of WL.

[HERn]

I remember RK once preaching and criticizing Billy Graham for having a highway named after him in North Carolina. I doubt that Billy could could control NC politics. Although Billy was a fundamentalist he united many Protestant groups and even broke the racial barrier. WL on the other hand was a divider and condemner of every group not under his control. I don't know anyone who is a follower of Billy, but there are thousands that follow WL.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

Just heard that one of my family members with saints from his LC went to Germany to preach the gospel to Syrian refugees. I hope that what they preach is the gospel of Jesus and not the gospel of WL.

I have seen a good amount of propaganda about this on Facebook, not particular to the Syrian refugees, but to Germany. Apparently the Lord is "recovering" his testimony in Stuttgart. From these forums I discovered that the local church in Stuttgart basically dissipated in the late 80's. Here they are 30 years later, barely starting again from square one, and leaders are using what little is actually happening as some sort of "proof" that the Lord is "moving".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

I remember RK once preaching and criticizing Billy Graham for having a highway named after him in North Carolina. I doubt that Billy could could control NC politics. Although Billy was a fundamentalist he united many Protestant groups and even broke the racial barrier. WL on the other hand was a divider and condemner of every group not under his control. I don't know anyone who is a follower of Billy, but there are thousands that follow WL.

Why is it Billy Graham is criticized so much in the local churches? Is it because of his effective evangelism?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have seen a good amount of propaganda about this on Facebook, not particular to the Syrian refugees, but to Germany. Apparently the Lord is "recovering" his testimony in Stuttgart. From these forums I discovered that the local church in Stuttgart basically dissipated in the late 80's. Here they are 30 years later, barely starting again from square one, and leaders are using what little is actually happening as some sort of "proof" that the Lord is "moving".

It is about refugees. There was a giant push for this during the recent Winter Training. You can track their effort here: https://www.facebook.com/germanyupdate

In the LC, the current interpretation of recent events is that the massive influx of Middle Eastern refugees is to accelerate the "Lord's move to Europe." Last year, LC leaders responded by beginning translation work of LSM materials into Farsi and Arabic, starting German and Arabic language lessons at the FTTA, and sending teams of LC members to Germany to visit refugee centers beginning in January. The trips are still ongoing.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

It is about refugees. There was a giant push for this during the recent Winter Training. You can track their effort here: https://www.facebook.com/germanyupdate

In the LC, the current interpretation of recent events is that the massive influx of Middle Eastern refugees is to accelerate the "Lord's move to Europe." Last year, LC leaders responded by beginning translation work of LSM materials into Farsi and Arabic, starting German and Arabic language lessons at the FTTA, and sending teams of LC members to Germany to visit refugee centers beginning in January. The trips are still ongoing.

Thanks Koinonia, this sounds good. Many on here have complained that the LC only seeks college educated good building material. Now we have an example of the LC reaching out to some of the less fortunate. It would be great to see the gospel reaching the Muslim people. Thanks for providing that information. Do you have anything else that can help us understand? All the best!

[HERn]

Well, I just read the following on Facebook.

"Please pray for this brother that he would be fully brought into the church life and that he would be a gospel seed to his friends."

Being fully brought into the church life is a worrisome sectarian divisive statement, I think. It really means to come under the ministry of WL as promulgated by the blended brothers and elders. It also means to submit yourself to the elders and become one with their thinking, practice, and opinions. It is a fully loaded phrase that that much could be written about. I'm throwing out the notion that the LSM LCs is the only place new Christians should be brought in to. Sorry for using Billy Graham again, but at the end of his meeting I believe there were "counsellors" from many denominations praying with people. I don't think any one denomination was emphasized as the one to bring someone fully into.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, I just read the following on Facebook.

"Please pray for this brother that he would be fully brought into the church life and that he would be a gospel seed to his friends."

Being fully brought into the church life is a worrisome sectarian divisive statement, I think. It really means to come under the ministry of WL as promulgated by the blended brothers and elders. It also means to submit yourself to the elders and become one with their thinking, practice, and opinions. It is a fully loaded phrase that that much could be written about. I'm throwing out the notion that the LSM LCs is the only place new Christians should be brought in to. Sorry for using Billy Graham again, but at the end of his meeting I believe there were "counsellors" from many denominations praying with people. I don't think any one denomination was emphasized as the one to bring someone fully into.

I am convinced that the average LCer (and especially the average FTTA "church kid") sees no reason to entertain a spiritual conversation with anyone but to try to reel the person in.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, I just read the following on Facebook.

"Please pray for this brother that he would be fully brought into the church life and that he would be a gospel seed to his friends."

Being fully brought into the church life is a worrisome sectarian divisive statement, I think. It really means to come under the ministry of WL as promulgated by the blended brothers and elders. It also means to submit yourself to the elders and become one with their thinking, practice, and opinions. It is a fully loaded phrase that that much could be written about. I'm throwing out the notion that the LSM LCs is the only place new Christians should be brought in to. Sorry for using Billy Graham again, but at the end of his meeting I believe there were "counsellors" from many denominations praying with people. I don't think any one denomination was emphasized as the one to bring someone fully into.

The attitude for years has been if a person receives the Lord in a LC setting, but doesn't fully come into the church life it's been a waste of time.
Someone like Billy Graham has been a subject of ridicule in the local churches at least since the early 1980's I can recall. I can only suspect his evangelism has been effective since the 1940's and he doesn't push a ministry.
Perhaps LC leaders are jealous and envious the recovery cannot match a fraction of Billy Graham's evangelism work.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

It is about refugees. There was a giant push for this during the recent Winter Training. You can track their effort here: https://www.facebook.com/germanyupdate

In the LC, the current interpretation of recent events is that the massive influx of Middle Eastern refugees is to accelerate the "Lord's move to Europe." Last year, LC leaders responded by beginning translation work of LSM materials into Farsi and Arabic, starting German and Arabic language lessons at the FTTA, and sending teams of LC members to Germany to visit refugee centers beginning in January. The trips are still ongoing.

The problem is that these people will be spoon-fed Witness Lee and not necessarily Christ. In other words, it's not good enough to accept and believe in the Lord, you also need to accept only their ministry and all that goes with it --unreservedly. So what you have is more LSM franchise assemblies composed of only those who accept WL as the infallible MOTA. If you do not fall into this category, ( you happen to have a rational brain ) then you will be cast aside - even if you are the most absolute for the Lord. There is nothing in the New Testament that sets up this type of assembly.

It will be interesting to see the result of all this. It is a very bold statement to declare (in essence) that the refugee crisis is God's way of adding to LSM churches

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The problem is that these people will be spoon-fed Witness Lee and not necessarily Christ. In other words, it's not good enough to accept and believe in the Lord, you also need to accept only their ministry and all that goes with it --unreservedly. So what you have is more LSM franchise assemblies composed of only those who accept WL as the infallible MOTA. If you do not fall into this category, ( you happen to have a rational brain ) then you will be cast aside - even if you are the most absolute for the Lord. There is nothing in the New Testament that sets up this type of assembly.

It will be interesting to see the result of all this. It is a very bold statement to declare (in essence) that the refugee crisis is God's way of adding to LSM churches

NewManLiving, it took me years to accept local churches are essentially franchises. Just like McDonalds, Burger King, or where my 16 year old works at; DairyQueen. Just like these examples, LSM franchises have a particular menu it's consumers must accept. Don't care for LSM publications? Just as NewManLiving indicated, you will be cast aside.
It may be those absolute for the Lord will be categorized as "lukewarm" all because they are not absolute for "the ministry".

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

NewManLiving, it took me years to accept local churches are essentially franchises. Just like McDonalds, Burger King, or where my 16 year old works at; DairyQueen. Just like these examples, LSM franchises have a particular menu it's consumers must accept. Don't care for LSM publications? Just as NewManLiving indicated, you will be cast aside.
It may be those absolute for the Lord will be categorized as "lukewarm" all because they are not absolute for "the ministry".

There aren't any formal franchise papers or documents, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if the church in Paducah contacted the LSM blendeds about being a local church the blendeds would want to know where they stand on THE ministry, receiving only LSM publications, and not collaborating with the daughters of the great prostitute. The blendeds and their sycophant elders will eventually confess on bended knees that Christ and His move and His Body are much, much, much greater than the sect known as the lords recovery.

[HERn]

This is a response to Igzy's excellent new (April 2, 2016) thread Summing Up. The reason I posted my response here is because it focuses so much on my personal situation. If admin wants to move it to Summing Up that's fine.



Thanks Igzy, that was really good. Your first point reminds me of what Aron often says that God is like a "businessman" that can use everything to "turn a profit", so to speak. He might also be like a physician who may prescribe a dangerous drug for a season to bring about long term healing. The latter is true in my case. The Lord hooked me up with some LC brothers and sisters whose spark for loving the Lord and people had not been snuffed out by LSM legalism and the blended's pride. My love for the Lord deepened and became more vital. When the Lord decided that the "treatment" was finished He pulled the curtains back and exposed the ugly naked unrighteousness of some of the local elders, and then of WL and the LSM blendeds. Kind of like going "cold turkey" and having withdrawal pains months on end. Our God may be a businessman or a physician, but He definitely is not a "sugar-daddy"; just consider the suffering he allowed His Son to experience, or the torture and martyring of many dear and gentle brothers and sisters. It truly is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10
…31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.… NIV from Biblehub

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by HERn

Kind of like going "cold turkey" and having withdrawal pains months on end.

HERn, how long did this last? I am currently going through this, and it is very unsettling. I feel like everything about Christianity (within the LC and outside of it) turns me off, and I don't know where to go for positive encouragement.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

HERn, how long did this last? I am currently going through this, and it is very unsettling. I feel like everything about Christianity (within the LC and outside of it) turns me off, and I don't know where to go for positive encouragement.

Hi brother (?) Koinonia. One year pretty hard, two years to finally breathe easy. For me it was a complex combination of spiritual, psychological, and sociological disengagement. the LC has a troika that together makes it hard to leave them, and for some even harder to find another spiritual home. If you were saved in the LC, then you will be faced with overcoming satan's lie that every Christian group outside of the LC is cursed and rejected by God. This is a perverse spiritual stronghold that satan has effectively used to shipwreck the faith of many that leave the LC. When I first started trying different groups the LC I was confronted with many feelings and lies that had their origin in LC false teaching and satan's lies. One of the first things I did was to stop reading ANYTHING from LSM. I also started reading a version of the New Testament that was new to me. I just read the gospels over and over to see my Lord Jesus without any of the LSM commentary. I prayed that the Lord would let me see the man Jesus. I cut off all contact with the elders and saints. I essentially excommunicated the elders from my life. Even though some of the dear saints cared for me, their goal was to restore me to the LC and its allegiance to the tainted ministry of WL. I did go to a Christian psychologist with my wife for a few sessions while trying to leave. His prayer and counsel was very helpful.

It was probably easier for me because I got saved in 1971 outside of the LC, so I knew there was reality outside of the LC.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi brother (?) Koinonia. One year pretty hard, two years to finally breathe easy. For me it was a complex combination of spiritual, psychological, and sociological disengagement. the LC has a troika that together makes it hard to leave them, and for some even harder to find another spiritual home. If you were saved in the LC, then you will be faced with overcoming satan's lie that every Christian group outside of the LC is cursed and rejected by God. This is a perverse spiritual stronghold that satan has effectively used to shipwreck the faith of many that leave the LC. When I first started trying different groups the LC I was confronted with many feelings and lies that had their origin in LC false teaching and satan's lies. One of the first things I did was to stop reading ANYTHING from LSM. I also started reading a version of the New Testament that was new to me. I just read the gospels over and over to see my Lord Jesus without any of the LSM commentary. I prayed that the Lord would let me see the man Jesus. I cut off all contact with the elders and saints. I essentially excommunicated the elders from my life. Even though some of the dear saints cared for me, their goal was to restore me to the LC and its allegiance to the tainted ministry of WL. I did go to a Christian psychologist with my wife for a few sessions while trying to leave. His prayer and counsel was very helpful.

It was probably easier for me because I got saved in 1971 outside of the LC, so I knew there was reality outside of the LC.

Thank you for your response. Yes, I was born and raised in the LC, and leaving it behind has easily been the most difficult thing I have ever had to face. Many times I have felt completely alone and have felt that I was losing my faith. Your comment about the spiritual, psychological, and sociological "troika" definitely matches my experience.

Somewhere deep down, however, I do believe that God is calling me to a deeper relationship with Him, and the whole process has made me realize how much I lacked in that relationship and how much of my spiritual life was actually all about the group and having a deep sense of belonging. Yet, many times I do question my decision to leave and wonder if it would have been worth it to stifle my feelings of discontent and stay around for the fellowship and familiarity of it all. I have done a little bit of reaching out to other Christians since stepping away. It's definitely shined a light on my judgmentalism and has, in certain ways, been very rewarding. At the same, fellowship with others has also been disheartening to me--as I find the way others approach spiritual matters to be extremely shallow (don't everyone come down on me; this is just my observation and something I'm dealing with). Most of my waking hours I live with this nagging feeling that I will never be happy or whole again and that I will always feel purposeless and isolated. I'm hoping for a light at the end of the tunnel.

[HERn]

I need to add that I'm still working through things and there are many areas in my life where I need His tender care. I confess that I've developed a taste for contemporary Christian music and no longer believe the LSM lies that music with drums and feeling is Babylonian. I've been helped by the songs of some young dear sisters like Holly Miller and Lauren Daigle. I know the style is not for all, but it's working for me right now.

Holly Miller or Hollyn

"Alone"
(feat. TRU)

Fell for you first day that I met you
Never dreamed that I ever could forget you
But black and white make a mess
When it turn to grey
Sunlight came sweepin' cross the window
Rewind to the time when we were so close
Got me longin' for yesterday

But Lord You, know me, so well
I can be a little punk sometimes

But don't leave me, leave me alone
Bust down the door to my heart like it's Your home
Don't need no keys
I'm on my knees
Begging You please
I've gotta settle this thing once and for all
You got my heart my soul You can have it all
I'm on my knees
Beggin' You please
Beggin' You please, Lord
Don't leave me alone

Through the tears, through the pain comes a new day
Blown away still amazed You pursue me
Ain't no limit to the way You love
Don't stop
Lord I need You like a heartbeat
Concrete
Rock solid under my feet
And You're callin' me, You're callin' me up

Cause You, know me, so well
I can be a little punk sometimes

But don't leave me, leave me alone
Bust down the door to my heart like it's Your home
Don't need no keys
I'm on my knees
Begging You please
I've gotta settle this thing once and for all
You got my heart my soul You can have it all
I'm on my knees
Beggin' You please
Beggin' You please, Lord
Don't leave me alone

[TRU:]
I said You had me in your arms but I fell through the grasp
But yep I had You in my heart but I guess I relapsed
Like I'm livin' for the wrong reasons, through the seasons
Tryna fall for you but then they put me on blast
It's like I try to speak my mind because I know that I'm His
And yep I try to speak my mind but it don't fly with them kids
Man if I'm not talkin' bout the newest Nikes or releases
They put the mute on me
I can't speak about my Jesus?
Like I'm living for Him
I'm slippin to sin
I turn around and make the amends
I try to fit it
I mess it up and stumble again
I'm takin' this pen
And writing everything so I remember just how sweet that it is
Yeah man I got issues I can't even lie
My only saving grace is knowing I got You inside
I'm done with saving face I ain't gotta thing to hide
So don't leave me alone
Keep coming day and night

Don't leave me, leave me alone
Bust down the door to my heart, lord it's Your home
Don't need no keys
I'm on my knees
Begging You please
I've gotta settle this thing once and for all
You got my heart my soul You can have it all
I'm on my knees
Beggin' You please
Beggin' You please, Lord
Don't leave me alone

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Most of my waking hours I live with this nagging feeling that I will never be happy or whole again and that I will always feel purposeless and isolated. I'm hoping for a light at the end of the tunnel.

My dear bro/sis you will be happy again, but this time your happiness will be in the Savior that loves you, not in the denomination that follows WL. You will need to make room in your heart for the dear shallow ones who love Jesus and cling to Him rather than the teachings of a man. These dear simple ones will be of more benefit to you than a million life studies because they cling to Him and need Him.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by HERn

My dear bro/sis you will be happy again, but this time your happiness will be in the Savior that loves you, not in the denomination that follows WL. You will need to make room in your heart for the dear shallow ones who love Jesus and cling to Him rather than the teachings of a man. These dear simple ones will be of more benefit to you than a million life studies because they cling to Him and need Him.

Thank you. By the way, I am a brother.

The thing that encourages me the most right now is that there is still something within me that seeks after God (and seeks after fellowship with others), and that there are others out there who have been through this before.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

The thing that encourages me the most right now is that there is still something within me that seeks after God (and seeks after fellowship with others), and that there are others out there who have been through this before.

And THIS is what this Forum is all about.

-

[HERn]

New Living Translation
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 2 Timothy 3:16

I posted this verse in another thread.

I'm throwing out the WL false teaching that only some scripture is useful and the error that the Christian should not be concerned with right and wrong.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

New Living Translation
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 2 Timothy 3:16

I posted this verse in another thread.

I'm throwing out the WL false teaching that only some scripture is useful and the error that the Christian should not be concerned with right and wrong.

When Lee first introduced the saying that we "Christians should not be obsessed with right and wrong," the context was petty differences that could overly occupy certain immature believers, and a call to deny yourself such nonsense. It was reasonable fellowship, which could be made by any of a million pastors on Sunday morning.

Lee, however, had a way about changing things over time. Eventually the same banner got waved over matters of grave consequence and oftentimes criminal activity, and the unsuspecting masses still have in mind petty matters of little consequence. I used to give Lee every benefit of the doubt, thinking him to be genuinely sincere and well-meaning. The facts of history no longer support that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When Lee first introduced the saying that we "Christians should not be obsessed with right and wrong," the context was petty differences that could overly occupy certain immature believers, and a call to deny yourself such nonsense. It was reasonable fellowship, which could be made by any of a million pastors on Sunday morning.

Lee, however, had a way about changing things over time. Eventually the same banner got waved over matters of grave consequence and oftentimes criminal activity, and the unsuspecting masses still have in mind petty matters of little consequence. I used to give Lee every benefit of the doubt, thinking him to be genuinely sincere and well-meaning. The facts of history no longer support that.

There was good reason for that. Not to focus on "the foxes ruining the vineyards". If we were to focus on "the foxes ruining the vineyards" we would have been looking at Lee and sons.
I'm sure the blendeds follow the same tradition when it comes to right and wrong. They don't want to be placed under the microscope. Just speak positively.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

Just speak positively.

But when did WL back then, or the Blendeds today, ever speak positively of the larger body of Christians, on whose behalf they supposedly meet? Anything positive, if at all, would be followed by a pause, then a 'but', and then some qualifier. "It is good that Christianity does 'X', 'Y', and 'Z'... (wait for it)... but.... we must say that this and that are wholly inadequate."

What has held them to this unending stream of negativity? The Spirit of Christ? Or some other spirit?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

But when did WL back then, or the Blendeds today, ever speak positively of the larger body of Christians, on whose behalf they supposedly meet? Anything positive, if at all, would be followed by a pause, then a 'but', and then some qualifier. "It is good that Christianity does 'X', 'Y', and 'Z'... (wait for it)... but.... we must say that this and that are wholly inadequate."

What has held them to this unending stream of negativity? The Spirit of Christ? Or some other spirit?

This is part of the double standard that results in spiritual bullying. To meet in the local churches, you or I cannot criticize, point out defects or hypocrisy of LSM/LC practices and teachings, but it is applauded usually with a chorus of amen's whenever in a meeting someone criticizes, points out defects or hypocrisy of non-LSM/LC Christianity. As I have posted before I asked an elder about this and he didn't have a problem with what I defined as negative speaking.
Maybe I have it all wrong. To run down non-LSM/LC Christian is viewed as building up the body? That it's considered to be edifying?
Maybe the blendeds feel they're qualified to besmirch one who exercise their spiritual gifts as they're the self-anointed ones who know the feeling of the Body.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

Maybe the blendeds feel they're qualified to besmirch one who exercise their spiritual gifts as they're the self-anointed ones who know the feeling of the Body.

I believe there is only one who knows the feeling of the body and that is the Holy Spirit.

[HERn]

I don't know the percentages, but I'm a product of my genes, family, social environment, and God's grace. On Friday nights I go to the homeless shelter and see some pretty needy people. Some have probably made bad choices, some have been abused from day-one, maybe some enjoy the lifestyle. The point is that I can't discern the percentages; I would probably be there given the right percentages. Maybe God's grace in a person's life should be evaluated as the change in |absolute value| rather than where people are on the negative - positive scale. I think in God's genuine economy the "last" may be first, and the "first" may be last.

[HERn]

» Quotes and Quips
The Son
of God
became
a man
to enable
men to
become
sons of God.

C.S. Lewis
» Listen Up!

Dear Unto Him;

That is a healthy quote!

[UntoHim]

Yes, it's apparently a revised version of the infamous Athanasious quote "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" - You know, that one that LSM uses to justify Witness Lee's unorthodox teachings. Lewis was famous for taking the hyper-spiritual and putting a more practical spin on them.

-

[HERn]

I'm pretty sure God is colorblind. I don't think He sees His children as black, white, yellow, or red. He just sees precious human vessels He can love. In the same way I don't think God sees denominations, He just sees His children loving Him in whatever ecclesiastical or social structure they find themselves in. I think it's satan who sees the denominations and gives certain ones the spirit of pride and superiority to consider themselves uniquely above and separate from all the others.

I'm throwing out the LSM false teaching that God hates the denominations. I think what God really hates is spiritual pride like that which infected lucifer. I'm throwing out the spiritual pride of the blendeds.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I believe there is only one who knows the feeling of the body and that is the Holy Spirit.

Paul says when one member suffers all suffer. When one member is glorified, all glory. That's called empathy and compassion (and the feeling of the body in my accounting). I didn't see much of that happening in LC in recent years.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

Paul says when one member suffers all suffer. When one member is glorified, all glory. That's called empathy and compassion (and the feeling of the body in my accounting). I didn't see much of that happening in LC in recent years.

Let me give one example. At an international conference, a brother who had been in the recovery in the US for many years stood outside the venue with signs in Chinese obviously angry at recovery leadership. No one would talk to him. Troubled, I stopped to talk to him. He said he was trying to get information about his daughter. She had been married to a Taiwanese brother in a marriage arranged by a leading one in Taiwan. And, he hadn't heard from her in over 6 months. All of his attempts to get information had been rebuffed. This broke my heart.

I went into the conference and listened to RK talk about "having a feeling for the body". But it had no relation to compassion or empathy. That made my blood boil.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

Let me give one example. At an international conference, a brother who had been in the recovery in the US for many years stood outside the venue with signs in Chinese obviously angry at recovery leadership. No one would talk to him. Troubled, I stopped to talk to him. He said he was trying to get information about his daughter. She had been married to a Taiwanese brother in a marriage arranged by a leading one in Taiwan. And, he hadn't heard from her in over 6 months. All of his attempts to get information had been rebuffed. This broke my heart.

I went into the conference and listened to RK talk about "having a feeling for the body". But it had no relation to compassion or empathy. That made my blood boil.

The LC has a PR problem that it just can't seem to escape. When you look at how poorly situations are handled, it comes as no surprise. And that is just the least of it. The way concerned or suffering members are treated and written off is unbecoming of a Christian group.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Let me give one example. At an international conference, a brother who had been in the recovery in the US for many years stood outside the venue with signs in Chinese obviously angry at recovery leadership. No one would talk to him. Troubled, I stopped to talk to him. He said he was trying to get information about his daughter. She had been married to a Taiwanese brother in a marriage arranged by a leading one in Taiwan. And, he hadn't heard from her in over 6 months. All of his attempts to get information had been rebuffed. This broke my heart.

I went into the conference and listened to RK talk about "having a feeling for the body". But it had no relation to compassion or empathy. That made my blood boil.

These same leaders spent all their formative years watching how Witness Lee treated other brothers. Many of the brothers who left over the years also had "boiling blood." They were taught that to lead the Recovery, one must have no feeling towards other brothers. Think abourt the effect it had on the blendeds when he lynched John Ingalls, a kind and godly man, in order to protect his own son Phillip, an unruly and immoral man?

[HERn]

Nigel's most recent paper that throws the OC under the bus was, I suppose, needed to debunk LSM's hyperbolic expansion of the OC's doctrine of theosis into something lucifer would be proud of, but I didn't like it. Using numbers and statistics can be tricky especially when considering things only from the Reformation forward. According to Christianity Today the Pentacostals in London are currently expanding the church in England while the Anglican Church is not growing. Protestants had their heyday in North America, Europe and almost the entire world. In the post-apostolic ante-Nicene period the gospel was spread by what today we would probably identify as the OC. The point is, I think, that it is our God that is coordinating the ebb and flow of His Church. Every portion of His church in every century is raised up by God so that His Christ can save men from their sins, and yes to bring them into being partakers of the divine nature (that is about as close to theosis that this Protestant is currently ready to embrace!). Is God currently saving people in the OC? I say yes. In the RCC? Yes. Even in the LSM LC God is saving some. Although I may think my narrow evangelical Protestant view of God's will is the "best", I'm good with God being sovereign and working in ways and places I don't understand. I'm throwing out the LSM arrogant attitude that it's our way or the highway.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC has a PR problem that it just can't seem to escape. When you look at how poorly situations are handled, it comes as no surprise. And that is just the least of it. The way concerned or suffering members are treated and written off is unbecoming of a Christian group.

Severe lack of compassion and grace. A brother or sister as individuals is deemphasized. Whatever personal problems and struggles are deemed irrelevant. I recall last time I was in a LC home meeting on a regular basis the focus was on shepherding. Really? If it was known what's between my two ears I don't think there would be any capacity to handle it. So much easy with the LC concept of shepherding (we don't really want to know your problems. Let's just call on the Lord three times and consider this shepherding).
The system is promoted, exalted, etc that no matter how poor a situation is handled, the affected individual must consider it as "taking the cross" for the better good of the system.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

Severe lack of compassion and grace. A brother or sister as individuals is deemphasized. Whatever personal problems and struggles are deemed irrelevant. I recall last time I was in a LC home meeting on a regular basis the focus was on shepherding. Really? If it was known what's between my two ears I don't think there would be any capacity to handle it. So much easy with the LC concept of shepherding (we don't really want to know your problems. Let's just call on the Lord three times and consider this shepherding).
The system is promoted, exalted, etc that no matter how poor a situation is handled, the affected individual must consider it as "taking the cross" for the better good of the system.

In one locality I was at there was a couple who opened their home to a bottomed-out musician brother who eventually came into the church life and ended up marrying one of the older sisters. There are some saints that do care for people, but I think they are different than the full-time ministry trained saints. As more of the LCs become ministry churches whose elders have been through the full-time training the more unlike Christ they will become.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

In one locality I was at there was a couple who opened their home to a bottomed-out musician brother who eventually came into the church life and ended up marrying one of the older sisters. There are some saints that do care for people, but I think they are different than the full-time ministry trained saints. As more of the LCs become ministry churches whose elders have been through the full-time training the more unlike Christ they will become.

There are few. Rare is the brother you can go to and release what's on your heart and in your soul and have it received objectively. Such a brother is a balanced voice of reason. On one hand appreciates the ministry LSM publishes, but on the other hand acknowledges the leading brothers owe an explanation to brothers and sisters in the local churches regarding our sordid past. Even if it came to a lawsuit to obtain such an explanation via deposition.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

Let me give one example. At an international conference, a brother who had been in the recovery in the US for many years stood outside the venue with signs in Chinese obviously angry at recovery leadership. No one would talk to him. Troubled, I stopped to talk to him. He said he was trying to get information about his daughter. She had been married to a Taiwanese brother in a marriage arranged by a leading one in Taiwan. And, he hadn't heard from her in over 6 months. All of his attempts to get information had been rebuffed. This broke my heart.

I went into the conference and listened to RK talk about "having a feeling for the body". But it had no relation to compassion or empathy. That made my blood boil.

I remembered what RK's example of "having a feeling for the body" was at that conference, and want to share it to complete the story. He expressed anger that a local church had changed a "standard" meeting practice (apparently without consulting the LRC leadership). Word had reached him, and he asked "how did you think that was going to affect the other churches". "You need to have a feeling for the body".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I remembered what RK's example of "having a feeling for the body" was at that conference, and want to share it to complete the story. He expressed anger that a local church had changed a "standard" meeting practice (apparently without consulting the LRC leadership). Word had reached him, and he asked "how did you think that was going to affect the other churches". "You need to have a feeling for the body".

This matter of, "You need to have a feeling for the body", heavily promoted by Lee and the Blendeds since the 80's, is entirely manipulative. It has nothing to do with spiritual feelings, caring for the body, shepherding the saints, serving the Lord, following the Spirit, or loving God. It is absolutely and entirely about building up authoritarian leadership at LSM and tearing down the local elderships.

This cleverly cloaked phrase totally contradicts Peter's teaching in 5.1-3.

And, btw, how in the world did employees at a publishing house ever get appointed to oversee elders around the globe?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

I am always curious about the original post and the direction/s it takes after several hundred posts. I decided to bring this one to the top with my take on "How much to Throw Out".

When I left, I kept my Bible and threw out everything else. This really helped me. I had already proven myself not to be trusted to make decisions on the choices I had made up to that point. The only really good decision I had made was to just "walk away"; I also prayed "Lord don't let go of me, and please don't make me go back to that place."

I didn't read my bible for several years which I think was a good thing. I was in effect "de-toxed" .

I think Christians often take on too much responsibility for "figuring things out" when that's what got us in trouble in the first place. I now believe we can safely walk away from just about anything as long as we trust in the Lord to restore what He will to our lives. For example, we don't need to "find a church". Follow Him and He will lead you wherever He will. We somehow get this idea of what "church" is or what church "should be" then try to make it happen. He will build His church, we just need to get out of the way.

I think we could be lost on a deserted island with nothing -- but still be in the perfect will of God. There's not much to figure out there...just talk to Him, and thank Him for not letting go. I think that's called walking by "Faith" :-)

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

I think Christians often take on too much responsibility for "figuring things out" when that's what got us in trouble in the first place. I now believe we can safely walk away from just about anything as long as we trust in the Lord to restore what He will to our lives.

I agree, Nell. Faith is simple. Just trust. Work is simple. Just obey. Honor God, serve others. Live out his love to someone who needs it. We meet them every day.

The impulse to "figure everything out" is increased when you have the mindset that the truth of the Bible is hidden behind what the words apparently say. I''m not saying there are not messages in the prophecies and types of the Bible. I'm just saying that to think that the apparent message is not the real message because there is another hidden message is a mistake that leads down the rabbit hole the LC lives in.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I agree, Nell. Faith is simple. Just trust. Work is simple. Just obey. Honor God, serve others. Live out his love to someone who needs it. We meet them every day.

The impulse to "figure everything out" is increased when you have the mindset that the truth of the Bible is hidden behind what the words apparently say. I''m not saying there are not messages in the prophecies and types of the Bible. I'm just saying that to think that the apparent message is not the real message because there is another hidden message is a mistake that leads down the rabbit hole the LC lives in.

So true about the LC.

We were trained to believe that the real message was the "low" gospel, and the apparent message was what everyone else missed, and Lee called it the "high" gospel of God's economy.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This matter of, "You need to have a feeling for the body", heavily promoted by Lee and the Blendeds since the 80's, is entirely manipulative. It has nothing to do with spiritual feelings, caring for the body, shepherding the saints, serving the Lord, following the Spirit, or loving God. It is absolutely and entirely about building up authoritarian leadership at LSM and tearing down the local elderships.

Very well said Ohio.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

I remembered what RK's example of "having a feeling for the body" was at that conference, and want to share it to complete the story. He expressed anger that a local church had changed a "standard" meeting practice (apparently without consulting the LRC leadership). Word had reached him, and he asked "how did you think that was going to affect the other churches". "You need to have a feeling for the body".

"having a feeling for the Body" is a loaded, coded catch phrase. The end result is promoting hierarchy. Decisions other than setting meeting times requires approval from Living Stream Ministry. It's like when you're in grade school and raising your hand for permission to use the restroom.
One example I've brought on this forum several times before was a hypothetical "what if" to a Renton elder (2009/2010). Several years prior to the passing of Bill Freeman, "what if Bill Freeman wanted to visit?" The elder's response was basically needing fellowship from the blended brothers. I can't recall the exact words verbatim, but that is paraphrased what was conveyed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

"having a feeling for the Body" is a loaded, coded catch phrase.

"Philip Lee is the Office" now becomes "The Blended Brothers are the Body". The controlling, manipulative reality hides its ugly face behind bland, coded euphemisms. Like someone "needing fellowship."

Originally Posted by John So

In those afternoons the brothers’ burden was very strong to propagate and to promote the ministry office, and at that time, really, none of the leading brothers had any idea what the office was. At one point, somebody was very ignorantly and innocently asking, “Well, what is the office, anyway?” And everybody laughed. Of course, we found out that the office is really Brother Lee’s son, Philip Lee. It might be public knowledge for everybody perhaps, except for the brothers in Europe. . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

"having a feeling for the Body" is a loaded, coded catch phrase. The end result is promoting hierarchy. Decisions other than setting meeting times requires approval from Living Stream Ministry. It's like when you're in grade school and raising your hand for permission to use the restroom.

Think about how degraded the Recovery has become. There was a time when following the leading of the Spirit was sought after and extolled. This brought much liberty to all the members. "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be really free."

Now all the members, especially those in any kind of leadership position, are afraid of this. They have been so spooked by Lee and the Blendeds to fear any kind of personal obedience. Every past "storm" was used by them to reinforce these degraded notions of solidarity, because it is in no way the oneness of the Spirit.

To me this is worse than so-called hierarchy. One old friend of mine in the South East likened his LC to "living in a police state." Every move he made was monitored by others waiting to report him to headquarters for "offending the body" with his "independence." That's the liberty of the Spirit missing in degraded Christianity? No thanks.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To me this is worse than so-called hierarchy. One old friend of mine in the South East likened his LC to "living in a police state." Every move he made was monitored by others waiting to report him to headquarters for "offending the body" with his "independence." That's the liberty of the Spirit missing in degraded Christianity? No thanks.

Originally Posted by John Ingalls

Regarding some brothers, probably including me (or, especially me), Brother Lee said, Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in, what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you. He said further, Which church is under my hand? You have a church; I have none. I know which church welcomes me, and which has a cold heart toward me.

Apparently WL was no stranger to encouraging members to spy on other members. The mere fact that WL needed 10-20 page reports on who was doing what is something that was obsessive and indicative of a paranoia. I couldn't possibly imagine who would want to waste their time doing that kind of reporting either. At any rate, that kind of atmosphere is indeed a indicator of just how degraded the LC became.

[Nell]

All of this further makes my case for throwing everything out!

It's much easier to follow the Lord alone than it ever was to follow Lee, or anyone else in a leadership roll in the LSM franchise.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Apparently WL was no stranger to encouraging members to spy on other members. The mere fact that WL needed 10-20 page reports on who was doing what is something that was obsessive and indicative of a paranoia. . . that kind of atmosphere is indeed a indicator of just how degraded the LC became.

If you want obsession and paranoia, check out the Brasil Dong-ites. Most of their material is posted online, you just have to translate it from the Portuguese.The dark side of their pentecostal fervor seems to be subjective paranoia that's untethered to the real world. There apparently are enemies within the camp, and treachery afoot, and plots brewing behind every door, and like in North Korea, you can get executed if you don't clap loudly enough. Or if you clap too loudly. Or if you clap out of synch.

How can anyone survive in such an environment? I don't know, except that maybe you have to be really, really, dull of hearing, cf Heb 5:11; also Matt 13:15. It takes a kind of stubborn, willful ignorance, or a complete lack of perception, to maintain anything like your first love and your first joy.

So I'm with Nell. Throw out everything. The God of resurrection knows what can be picked up again.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Apparently WL was no stranger to encouraging members to spy on other members. The mere fact that WL needed 10-20 page reports on who was doing what is something that was obsessive and indicative of a paranoia. I couldn't possibly imagine who would want to waste their time doing that kind of reporting either. At any rate, that kind of atmosphere is indeed a indicator of just how degraded the LC became.

This is something that has really disturbed me about Witness Lee, i.e. he fostered rivalries among the workers, and even seemed to promote their backbiting, ingratiating himself with sycophantic underlings. To his credit, Titus Chu tried to protect the GLA from much of this, but not all of it could be blamed on Philip Lee or others.

Just the other day I was reading Paul's exhortation to Timothy concerning his oversight of the elders and workers. Compare Lee's actions with the scripture:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His chosen angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. -- I Tim. 5.21

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Compare Lee's actions with the scripture:

1 Tim 5:21 is a great verse. There is nothing but a spirit of partiality with Lee and Co. It starts with "the recovery" versus everything else. Whatever was "the recovery" was pure and untainted, and we could see no wrong in the glorious church(unless Lee was in a bad mood, but that's another story). And nothing of "poor Christianity" was any good at all. How is this not partiality?

Lee's teachings were "revelation"; everyone else's were "concepts" (even the Bible was panned where it didn't match Lee's theology). Is this not subjectivism run amok?

Lee alone was a humble bondslave of Christ; every other Christian worker was ambitious, trying to establish a kingdom, trying to draw others after themselves.

Only Lee could correct and rebuke, and offer critiques (e.g. "Affirmation and Critique"), but if anyone else tried it then this was an "attack".

And we could go on and on. Everything was done in a spirit of partiality.

Don Rutledge once testified how the senior Chinese brothers treated him, once they found out that he was "tight" with Witness Lee. Suddenly their demeanor was transformed, and they oozed deference, respect, partiality. Where coldness had reigned, warmth now beamed. Why? They were respecters of persons. In fact the whole culture is built on nothing but. It is an oriental personality cult.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

All of this further makes my case for throwing everything out!

It's much easier to follow the Lord alone than it ever was to follow Lee, or anyone else in a leadership roll in the LSM franchise.

Nell

I didn't have to consciously throw much out. Just join a church that is teaching mainstream Bible-based stuff. Read the current authors. After not hearing Lee's teachings and hearing other teachings for years I just started forgetting the LC stuff.

Age and associated memory loss are a great help here.

Now much of the LC stuff just sounds strange to me.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I didn't have to consciously throw much out. Just join a church that is teaching mainstream Bible-based stuff. Read the current authors. After not hearing Lee's teachings and hearing other teachings for years I just started forgetting the LC stuff.

Age and associated memory loss are a great help here.

Now much of the LC stuff just sounds strange to me.

I was too emotionally traumatized when I left to be that objective. I was afraid what they said was true...that I was a goner... It was at least 5 years before I could go to a church...and when I did, I cried the entire time, especially during the singing. Reading the Bible was out of the question. All I could do was just talk to the Lord, which was not, in my mind, praying. I was just talking. As hard as all that was, it was what I needed.

I finally got out of the garlic room. Now I know garlic when I smell it.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

I was too emotionally traumatized when I left to be that objective. I was afraid what they said was true...that I was a goner... It was at least 5 years before I could go to a church...and when I did, I cried the entire time, especially during the singing. Reading the Bible was out of the question. All I could do was just talk to the Lord, which was not, in my mind, praying. I was just talking. As hard as all that was, it was what I needed.

Reading this kind of experience makes me think how different each path is. What one throws out may be different from another. And what I throw out today will probably be different from before, or later.

In my case, I went straight from an LSM meeting to a community church. And I passed out LSM tracts and pamphlets, thinking that I was fostering revival. So my experience was the opposite of what Nell shared.

Yet, interestingly, I gave up several years later. On religion, of all forms. God was somewhere, but completely removed (so it seemed) from my daily existence. Eventually I kept sensing a "deep call" and began to slowly and fitfully respond.

Originally Posted by Nell

I finally got out of the garlic room. Now I know garlic when I smell it.

Irrespective of particulars, one commonality seems to be an aversion to a controlling, manipulative, sectarian spirit. I also smell it more acutely today, than I did decades ago. Even if it cloaks itself in teachings like "Christ Versus Religion", and rolls out verses by the dozen. I can smell it.

Clues: 1) Everyone is wrong but me.
2) Imperatives, continually. "We need to see that", and "We must" and "We all need to". The royal we, here, and always needy. Always cries for ''more, more.''
3) Coded words. Innocuous words like "Fellowship" and "oneness" mean something unique to the group.
4)NO attempt to heal wounds. Forgiveness is almost impossible, once God's Deputy has been offended.
5)The scripture has long since lost its capacity to give revelation. Now it simply exists as a proof text for someone's teaching. Any fresh light would be dangerous.
6) The individual is subsumed in the Hive. You have no meaning apart from the Collective. Which collective, of course, is run in an absolute way by God's Deputy Authority.

Etc. None of this is unique to this particular group and ministry, the Local Church of Witness Lee. But what an education it was, passing through it!

There are dozens of such Christian groups, probably. I can think of a half-dozen off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Geftakys Assembly Survivor

The following info was written by me. These articles are 100% accurate, down to the last detail. I was a member for 17 years. I am now out of The Assembly group and fellowship at a Calvary Chapel.

I would consider myself to be an authority on every aspect of this group and all of their doctrine. Most of what is on the RickRoss site is my writing.

Some of my articles apply to any abusive group, including JW's, Local Church, Oneness Pentecostal and others.

This information was posted to offer the public a resource concerning controversial and potentially unsafe groups--some that have been called "cults" - and related subjects.

What It Is Like To Be Fully Committed To The Geftakys Group

Written by a former member of over 17 years.

In this account I will attempt to give a balanced, accurate description, from the inside, of what it is like to be fully committed to the Geftakys group. From the outset, the reader should be aware of the bias of the author. Every report or account, even in the scientific world, is subject to observer bias, and this article is no exception. I will attempt, by giving my personal testimony, to state my bias as clearly as possible from the start and let the reader draw his own conclusions.

Personal Testimony

I was born in 1962. I was born again in the Christian sense in 1976, at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. At this time I was 14 years old. I had no type of religious upbringing. My salvation experience was orthodox in every way; I was convicted of my sin, and believed in my heart that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save me. To this very day I thank God daily for sending His Son to die in my place. I am, as I write this, walking with Christ, confessing my sin and thanking God for His Grace every day. I am married to my first and only wife of 14 years, and have 5 children. Every morning, except Saturday and Sunday, the first thing we do as a family is to sing, pray and read from either the Bible, or a Christian devotional. Saturdays we sleep in and Sunday we attend church, so we don't have devotions those days. I am, what most people would call, a strong Christian. However, like most "strong Christians," I don't consider myself to be strong. I am in need of Grace and mercy every hour of every day. I attend church meetings 2 to 3 times per week, currently, and am actively involved.

After my salvation at age 14, I had a few short months of following Christ before I plunged into typical high school pursuits of girlfriends, recreational drugs, music and athletics. Going to church was not high on my priority list. My moral condition degenerated to the point where I was using recreational drugs and alcohol on a weekly basis. . . Deep down I still believed, and knew that serving Jesus Christ was the right thing to do, but I really enjoyed the sinful life I was leading.

It was at this stage that I first encountered the Geftakys ministry at my college campus. A very earnest, sincere student approached me after class one day and asked me if I was a Christian. I honestly did not know how to answer, but after a brief consideration I answered that yes, I was.

He then proceeded to share some verses with me out of the Old Testament and tell me about the group he was involved in on campus. I was struck by one thing in particular; he made the statement, "On Sunday, we worship The Lord!î He said this in such a way that I immediately recognized that this person was much more serious than any other Christian I had ever met. Indeed, seriousness is the main characteristic of a typical Geftakys member. I believe to this day that God was speaking to me through him. A few days later he invited me to come to a Bible study, which I subsequently attended. That was my first time at an "Assembly" meeting. At this Bible study I prayed to get right with God, and in fact I repented of all known sin in my life. God definitely used this Bible study to get me back into the narrow way. I am eternally thankful for this and much else I learned in the Geftakys ministry.

Much later, I learned that my personality type, characteristics and idealism were a perfect match for this particular group. I was extremely idealistic, opinionated and passionate about virtually everything. The Geftakys ministry is tailor made for my type of person. If someone is involved with the assembly, there is tremendous pressure put on them to be totally committed. This is very difficult for most people, but was perfect for me. For the next 17 years I gave heart, soul, mind, strength, time and money to serve this group.

Many times along the way my conscience told me that something was wrong. Many times I let ambition and pride carry me along, even when I knew that all was not well. Many times I treated family and friends in a shameful way, while thinking I was taking an uncompromising stand for "The Testimony". In short, after 17 years I could not in good conscience continue to be involved with this group. I had lost my joy, but not my faith. For 3 years prior to leaving I tried and tried to "yield" and give up my reservations, but I could not do so without violating my conscience. While it is absolutely true that someone such as myself can truly be saved in George Geftakys' ministry, after one is saved, serving the group takes priority over freedom in Christ. After seeing example after example of abuse, double standards, arrogant denunciation of other believers and wayward children, I decided that I was free to serve God in another place. It has been the best decision I have made since that Wednesday night in 1983 when I came back to Jesus once and for all. Hopefully, the reader is now beginning to understand my bias. Let me state it clearly: The Geftakys ministry is definitely Christian. They are definitely leading a small number of people to Christ. The problem is that after beginning with Grace through faith, they compel their members to continue in the flesh, thus leading them away from the simplicity of Christ. I will expand on this later.

I love the people that are involved in George's ministry, but I hate the system he has erected. My prayer is that these wounded sheep will find green pastures and still water and that George and those intimately involved with him will repent of their error and allow the sheep to be truly fed. I still have regular contact with many current members and consider them my friends and brothers in Christ. That, in a nutshell, should give the reader a clear idea of my bias in writing this article. I am not, like so many, on an anti-cult crusade, but I do want to see His people delivered from false spiritual authority and bondage. George Geftakys' ministry is not a cult, but a needy church, very much like the Galatians of the New Testament.

A typical week of "Life Together"

Monday morning in a brothers' house begins with morning devotions, usually around 6:30 AM. We sing from the assembly hymnbook, "Hymns and Spiritual Songs", read a passage of scripture and then pray for the day. Depending on the house members, this may be quite automatic and routine, or very intense and sincere. Next there is a flurry of activity in the kitchen as breakfast is prepared and lunches are made for everyone in the house. Breakfast is not always a mandatory attendance meal, but is often eaten together. Everyone rushes off to school or work and the wife of the house begins her stewardships. Many activities, such as meeting with people, discipleship meetings, and planning meetings take place at various times throughout the day. Around 5 or 5:30 dinner will be served, which is mandatory for everyone in the house. Someone is responsible for preparing the meal, setting the table, cleaning up the dishes and shopping. These, along with all the other household chores are what George calls stewardships. It is extremely important to be faithful with your stewardships in the Geftakys group. Lateness, not meeting the standard, or forgetfulness will result in consequences. These are tasks that are added on top of the other stewardships. They are a form of corrective punishment for failing to meet the standard of the home in some way. Consequences are usually helpful to someone or something, but are rarely natural consequences to the infraction. Typical consequences may be doing another's stewardship, washing the leader's car, or digging in the backyard. Washing windows was another favorite. Sometimes, consequences are quite creative and fun, making them a not altogether bad idea. Even so, this practice makes for a very rigid and forced lifestyle.

During the meal, someone is always careful to steer the conversation back to "The Lord". Guests are invited to almost every meal, and care is taken to make sure that they are made a topic of conversation. In one brotherís house, people were instructed to prepare a 3 by 5 card before the meal with the topic of conversation listed on the card. If the conversation became too free flowing, a nervous brother would glance down at a yellow card and then awkwardly try to wrench the conversation back to the topic listed on the card. The atmosphere is quite contrived and forced, with many guests going away with the distinct impression of "something strange going on here." All this is done under the guise of training. Brothers' and Sisters' houses are often referred to as training homes.

If there is no meeting after dinner, some of the house members will baby-sit for married couples, others will study, meet with someone for discipleship, or possibly watch a sports event at a local bar or restaurant. If they go to a sports bar they will not drink alcohol. TV's are not allowed in brothers' houses, and are frowned upon in all membersí houses. Interestingly, many members have TV's, but keep them in the closet, bringing them out only for special occasions, like an illness. Televisions are the most often borrowed item in the Geftakys ministry.

Tuesday is identical to the above except there is a prayer meeting from 7 to 9:30 PM. Wednesday is the Bible study, from 7 to 9:00 PM. Attendance at most meetings across the country is less than 30 people. Several groups are less than 10, including children. There are 2 larger assemblies in the US, which have 100 or more members. No meeting has ever been larger than around 300 people, even after 30 years of intense outreach. Thursday is usually some sort of outreach, from 7:30 to around 9 PM, weather permitting. Friday is free about 2 out of five weekends. The other Friday evenings are taken with extended prayer meetings till midnight or 2 AM, couples meetings, special campus fellowships, special outreaches, special seminars and other such things. Saturdays begin with tape ministry, from 8 to 10 AM. This is when the whole assembly gathers to listen to George Geftakys' preaching from years ago. Every message that George preaches is recorded and is listened to as long as 30 years later. No one else is ever heard in the tape meeting, with the exception of reports from Africa once per year. It is taught that the tape is "where we get our vision". A large part of the rest of the day Saturday is spent doing stewardships and house projects, usually yard work or some sort of home improvement. Many of the members rent houses. These rental properties are usually very well cared for, with hundreds of hours of work put in towards improvement, often free of charge. Geftakys members are ideal renters. Saturday evening is for house meetings and preparing for Sunday. Members are encouraged to spend several hours studying the Bible and preparing a short message to share in the meeting. Early to bed and early to rise is the rule, because Sundays are very busy. In addition to the above, there are numerous other outreaches and meetings that are not for everyone, but only for students, or for those who wish to go. The meetings listed above are "Assembly" meetings, for which attendance is expected. A typical member will attend 5 meetings each week, the shortest being 2 hours in length.

In the Geftakys group, the members believe in "All day for the Lord". This means that all of Sunday, until bedtime, will be spent in some sort of assembly activity. Sunday morning begins at around 7 AM, with breakfast. Then everyone rushes off to the meeting hall to set up chairs and get everything ready for the meeting. Doorkeepers, a cross between greeters and bouncers, meet at 8 AM to discuss 2 things: Who is not partaking communion that morning, and who will serve the bread and wine at communion. The lead doorkeeper asks if the others are ready to preach, with about 3 out of 5 saying they are. Those not ready are reminded again and again to be ready in the future. The other saints, which the way members refer to one another, wait inside while the doorkeepers go through their routine. Around 8:15 the leading brothers and their families show up and place their belongings on the seats reserved for them by the doorkeepers. The leading brothers, who would be called elders in most churches, meet and discuss topics like who is having trouble, who is doing well, how their conversations with struggling saints went, how the doorkeepers' meeting went, who has a burden to preach, who will do announcements etc.

Everyone meets to pray at 8:45. This lasts until 8:55 and always ends with the phrase "Greet the visitor!" and frequently, "And all the lively ones said....", to which everyone answers, "Praise the Lord!" George's trademark, which is often borrowed, is to say, "Rejoice in the Lord! And again I say Rejoice!" Everyone joins in by adding "Always!" when he says this.

Worship begins promptly at 9:28 to 9:30 and ends promptly at 10:26 to 10:30 AM. Following worship is communion. Following communion is a time of open ministry in the Plymouth Brethren tradition, with 2 or 3 men speaking. Much is made of the meetings being led by the Holy Spirit. Mainline churches, it is said, are weak because they use programs, scheduling ahead of time how the meeting will go, but Geftakys' meetings have no programs. Well, for not having programs, they all start and end at exactly the same time across the country, week after week, regardless of what the Spirit may direct. There may not be a printed bulletin, but there are announcements which, when written down, become every bit a bulletin, although hand written instead of printed. In practice the meetings are every bit as programmed as other churches, but in theory they are Spirit led. Petty differences and elitist attitudes like these mark these meetings, which unperceptively produce a spiritual pride that is endemic to the ministry. Almost every member who has been involved for more than 6 months will hold the following opinions:

Mainstream Christianity has compromised in several key areas (touched on in this paper). Of course, the assembly has held faithfully to The Bible in these areas where others have failed. The Geftakys ministry is, therefore, chief among the few biblically sound churches in the modern world. "What this means is God is looking, not for man-made churches, but overcomer churches, those that are born of the Spirit of God." page 91, Testimony to Jesus, Geftakys. "...the pattern is important, and if God cannot get His pattern expressed in us, He will bypass us until He finds those through whom He can get what He wants." page 119, Testimony to Jesus, Geftakys. Those poor Christians who meet in man-made, denominational churches are most likely "bypassed", according to George Geftakys.

The preaching that most Christians hear on Sundays is shallow. There is not much vision being communicated because the preachers are afraid of losing their jobs, so they water down the message so they won't get fired. "Thank God that we have such rich ministry here," Geftakys members say. "Paid clergymen", which is how members refer to pastors of other churches, are "hirelings." However, George and the other full time workers who are paid somehow are not considered paid clergy. They take the title of shepherds, instead of hirelings. Of course, George Geftakys preaches deep messages, not shallow pithy ones like those for which the majority of evangelicals must settle.

Other believers don't know how to worship God properly. "He revealed to me what it meant to worship in spirit and in truth. I am convinced that most professing Christians today do not know how to worship..........Why? Because they lack reality." from "Simplicity to Worship" pages 5 and 6, George Geftakys.

The meeting ends 15 minutes either side of noon. A quick lunch is eaten and outreach begins promptly at 1:00 PM and goes to around 2. The most common form of outreach is door to door. Convalescent homes are also visited, which is how the children can contribute. The assembly has actually been "kicked out" of a convalescent home because one of the brothers preached a "Gospel" using the idea that, "you could die any minute. Please ask Christ to be your savior." Although this is quite true, the staff and families that heard this message were not a little put out by it. Leaders never go on outreach, but take this time to study or meet with people. Others are strongly encouraged to go on outreach, especially families with children. However, the attendance on afternoon outreach is always sparse and hints are dropped constantly that saints, especially families, need to be faithful to go on outreach. To not do so demonstrates a lack of commitment. Pre-prayer is at 2:30 sharp and the afternoon meeting begins at 3:00 sharp and goes till 4:30 or 5:00.

Following the afternoon meeting is usually some sort of fellowship, frequently sports of some kind. Doorkeepers count the money in the box and pay for the room rental, while leading brothers gather to discuss things for 2 to 3 hours. These times are frequently long sessions on how to deal with problems. Often, people are called in and "talked to" about something they did wrong or some behavior they need to change. Strategy on how to micromanage the saints' lives is discussed, and the calendar of upcoming events is planned. Of course the day's ministry is also reviewed and commented on. Everyone is tired Sunday evening. Most of the saints have to work Monday morning, but the full time workers take Mondays off.

The cycle repeats itself week after week. The times for the meetings, style of meeting, literature displayed, dress code, and home life is absolutely identical across the country. Each assembly is literally a clone of the others. Visitors are somewhat common, but usually few in number, with repeat visitors even more rare.

Look at: Peer pressure to conform, and to be absolute for what Headquarters wants. No independent thought or activity allowed; only Big Brother has it figured out; everyone else will bring confusion and disorder if they try to think or act or follow the Holy Spirit. . . Also note the continual judgment of everything and everyone else as hopelessly deficient.

They have even the same methodologies and terminologies: "brother's houses", and "full time workers" (versus the despised 'paid clergy'). Eerily familiar, no? Even the phraseology is identical: "Most Christians today don't know how to blah-blah..." If you have discernment and look for it, this controlling, sectarian spirit will be clearly seen manifesting itself in these kinds of groups. The group is merely a vehicle for the ministry, and the ministry is a vehicle for the minister, and the minister is the vehicle for the controlling spirit.

As I said, there are dozens of such groups. Coming out of the LC of Lee, now I know what they smell like.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

They have even the same methodologies and terminologies: "brother's houses", and "full time workers" (versus the despised 'paid clergy'). Eerily familiar, no? Even the phraseology is identical: "Most Christians today don't know how to blah-blah..." If you have discernment and look for it, this controlling, sectarian spirit will be clearly seen manifesting itself in these kinds of groups. The group is merely a vehicle for the ministry, and the ministry is a vehicle for the minister, and the minister is the vehicle for the controlling spirit.

As I said, there are dozens of such groups. Coming out of the LC of Lee, now I know what they smell like.

Thanks for this, aron. I think anyone who ever has been involved with the LC would do well to study Geftakys' group. You can see that there was nothing really "unique" about the LC.

Interesting that Geftakys' also has roots in the Brethren. And we know now what they were, and have become. (tip of the hat to bro Ohio.)

I used to think that allowing Christians to be free to make their own decisions, rather than expecting them to "follow the brothers" without question, was a degraded compromise of Christianity. Now I realize it's the only thing that stands between us and manipulation by the ilk of Geftakys and Witness Lee and other wolves.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I used to think that allowing Christians to be free to make their own decisions, rather than expecting them to "follow the brothers" without question, was a degraded compromise of Christianity. Now I realize it's the only thing that stands between us and manipulation by the ilk of Geftakys and Witness Lee and other wolves.

This is an area of our Christian walk that needs healthy balance. Yes, we should submit to and obey those leading us, because they watch over our souls. (Hebrew 13.17) But they are not our Lord, and they did not redeem us with their own blood, so ultimately we must obey God rather than man. (Acts 4.19; 5.29)

We should also note that relatively few scriptures judge us for not obeying our leaders, while many warn us about not obeying God. Likewise, the warnings to leaders not to "lord it over the flock," and the judgment on evil shepherds runs throughout scripture.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

1 Tim 5:21 is a great verse. There is nothing but a spirit of partiality with Lee and Co. It starts with "the recovery" versus everything else. Whatever was "the recovery" was pure and untainted, and we could see no wrong in the glorious church(unless Lee was in a bad mood, but that's another story). And nothing of "poor Christianity" was any good at all. How is this not partiality?

Lee's teachings were "revelation"; everyone else's were "concepts" (even the Bible was panned where it didn't match Lee's theology). Is this not subjectivism run amok?

Lee alone was a humble bondslave of Christ; every other Christian worker was ambitious, trying to establish a kingdom, trying to draw others after themselves.

Only Lee could correct and rebuke, and offer critiques (e.g. "Affirmation and Critique"), but if anyone else tried it then this was an "attack".

And we could go on and on. Everything was done in a spirit of partiality.

I agree with what you're saying Aron, but I'd like to focus on 1 Timothy 5:21. It's a verse that could serve to check elders and co-workers, but due to the deputy authority doctrine that has severely weighted down the recovery movement, no verses could serve as a means to check elders and co-workers. We know the coded lingo. Attempting to check is received as "an attack". Such a one attempting to check an elder would be accused of being rebellious, attempting to create a following, negative, etc.

[HERn]

Heard from my son today that he is burnt out on the church life along with his wife. He's been through a training, but something has changed. I'm so glad he still talks with me. His kids still do the summer school of truth stuff, but I think it's all just religious activity no matter how hard they scream that they are not a denomination. I'd rather be in a denomination that knows it is one, rather than a blinded self-righteous one that denies it's one. The LSM LCs are the most closed of all Protestant denominations and only receive those that purchase the materials and follow the teachings of the sectarian brothers of LSM. I'm done with them and have thrown them out. My marriage is better, I'm happier, and the Lord still moves my heart when I read the bible. The religion propagated by LSM is a lie I believe.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

The religion propagated by LSM is a lie I believe.

Follow the money. It's all about revenue. There's a quote somewhere Witness Lee said in the mid-1980's that a local church didn't have to take his ministry to be a local church. That sure was a fabrication. As we know local churches won't fellowship without having LSM publications as their ground of fellowship.

[HERn]

We had to change schools for our daughter because a boy in her class assaulted her. The school would not remove the boy from her classes and she was did not want to be anywhere near him. She was acting out at home. It was traumatic for all, but now at her new school she has made two good friends. She is so much happier and she is much more stable. The Lord really does make all things work together for good. Yesterday we drove by the university where there were some Hare Kristnas (spelling) chanting and singing and my wife asked what do they get out of doing that and I said the same thing we got out of screaming our chants in the recovery. I've been thinking that the new way WL supposedly received from the Lord is really nothing more than what the JW and Mormons do; it's a numbers game. If you knock on enough doors you can create a following. Nothing spiritual at all in that. As a kid I went door to door selling magazine subscriptions and my boss said if you talk to 20 people you will get a sale. It's probably true that if the LC saints really committed to door knocking two nights a week they would get more followers, but why would any Christian want to follow the way of the world or a religious cult. I remember as a newly saved 17 yo our church did Tuesday night visitation where we called on visitors and folks in the Sunday school. Kind of old fashioned now.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

We had to change schools for our daughter because a boy in her class assaulted her. The school would not remove the boy from her classes and she was did not want to be anywhere near him. She was acting out at home. It was traumatic for all, but now at her new school she has made two good friends. She is so much happier and she is much more stable. The Lord really does make all things work together for good. Yesterday we drove by the university where there were some Hare Kristnas (spelling) chanting and singing and my wife asked what do they get out of doing that and I said the same thing we got out of screaming our chants in the recovery. I've been thinking that the new way WL supposedly received from the Lord is really nothing more than what the JW and Mormons do; it's a numbers game. If you knock on enough doors you can create a following. Nothing spiritual at all in that. As a kid I went door to door selling magazine subscriptions and my boss said if you talk to 20 people you will get a sale. It's probably true that if the LC saints really committed to door knocking two nights a week they would get more followers, but why would any Christian want to follow the way of the world or a religious cult. I remember as a newly saved 17 yo our church did Tuesday night visitation where we called on visitors and folks in the Sunday school. Kind of old fashioned now.

I'm glad things have worked out with your daughter, HERn. That sounds like a very tough situation.

The sad thing about LC is that Jesus is the way. How many times did we hear "this is the way" there? I thought it was about Jesus when I first came in, but the longer I stayed it was about a lot of peculiar practices replacing Jesus, and the organization of the church replacing the headship of Christ.

I had a similar experience to the Hare Krishna experience you had today, when I saw two women dressed in very old fashioned and super-modest clothes and head coverings walking through home depot. These women probably are members of what their leaders say is a group with "the most biblical beliefs". And, yet they looked like they were in straight-jackets, for how comfortable they looked. Unfortunately it reminded me of the sad "spirituality contest" trapping many in the LC. Lord, free your people who have become entrapped in such cultic practices to the freedom of the glory of your grace in Christ Jesus.

Calling on the Lord can be a great way, but not the way, to enjoy the Lord (I still do it a lot, but not over and over and over, and over, that's just plain weird.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm glad things have worked out with your daughter, HERn. That sounds like a very tough situation.

The sad thing about LC is that Jesus is the way. How many times did we hear "this is the way" there? I thought it was about Jesus when I first came in, but the longer I stayed it was about a lot of peculiar practices replacing Jesus, and the organization of the church replacing the headship of Christ.

I had a similar experience to the Hare Krishna experience you had today, when I saw two women dressed in very old fashioned and super-modest clothes and head coverings walking through home depot. These women probably are members of what their leaders say is a group with "the most biblical beliefs". And, yet they looked like they were in straight-jackets, for how comfortable they looked. Unfortunately it reminded me of the sad "spirituality contest" trapping many in the LC. Lord, free your people who have become entrapped in such cultic practices to the freedom of the glory of your grace in Christ Jesus.

Calling on the Lord can be a great way, but not the way, to enjoy the Lord (I still do it a lot, but not over and over and over, and over, that's just plain weird.

For me it was about Jesus. Then it became clear that it was about WL. I never praised or honored Paul or John after reading the NT. Why would anyone praise and honor WL unless he was deceived? Blended brothers and elders you are deceived.

[HERn]

One reason my posts are so short is that I peck each one out on my iPad2.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

For me it was about Jesus. Then it became clear that it was about WL. I never praised or honored Paul or John after reading the NT. Why would anyone praise and honor WL unless he was deceived? Blended brothers and elders you are deceived.

It's a big shame blended brothers and elders are leading others into deception. Even when they're not blatantly exalting Witness Lee, it takes great restraint for them not to from my observation. Whether Blended brothers and elders want it or not, they are looked at as patterns in the local churches. When they exalt Witness Lee, they set the pattern. When they besmirch brothers who leave the recovery, they set the pattern.
These ones of responsibility should not be saying "do as I say, and not as I do" because whatever these so-called responsible brothers do is considered the acceptable behavior to model.
Among the New Testament writers whoever wrote the most was placed with the greatest importance in the local churches. Paul is placed with the greatest honor, then John, etc. Apostles who didn't write any books are considered with an asterisk as if they didn't have a vision for "God's Economy".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

For me it was about Jesus. Then it became clear that it was about WL. I never praised or honored Paul or John after reading the NT. Why would anyone praise and honor WL unless he was deceived? Blended brothers and elders you are deceived.

After Lee died in the late 90's, one brother from the GLA counted Ed Marks on the podium evoking the glorious name of Witness Lee some 33 times in one message. No one seemed to be bothered.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After Lee died in the late 90's, one brother from the GLA counted Ed Marks on the podium evoking the glorious name of Witness Lee some 33 times in one message. No one seemed to be bothered.

If I was going to honor a man it would be Paul, John, Peter, or Timothy. Why would anyone honor a man that swindled fellow Christians out of their money to build motor homes. Why do the so-called blended brothers follow a man rather than Christ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

If I was going to honor a man it would be Paul, John, Peter, or Timothy. Why would anyone honor a man that swindled fellow Christians out of their money to build motor homes. Why do the so-called blended brothers follow a man rather than Christ?

There are BLENDEDS and then there are blendeds. Most of the blendeds do not understand what the BLENDEDS did during the past criminal coverups. These blendeds, along with the local leaders and the saints, don't have a clue what the BLENDEDS have done over the years during those so-called "storms," which were never really "storms" or rebellions, but men of God speaking their conscience against the evils perpetrated by Witness Lee, his sons Timothy and Phillip, and the BLENDEDS.

[HERn]

Enjoyed Luke 12:15 from the Unvarnished NT. "Watch and guard against having to have it all..." In the recovery the answer to everything was "turn to your spirit". All the teachings of Jesus could be fulfilled by "just turning to your spirit". If this was a healthy teaching why didn't our Lord teach this? Why didn't Paul or John teach this? I need to hear and meditate on our Lord's words. This along with prayer involves the spirit, which I think is more effectual and healthy than "turning to your spirit". We are going to change our lives shortly which will involve a financial sacrifice, but we believe we are following the Lord and we are trying to guard against having it all.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There are BLENDEDS and then there are blendeds. Most of the blendeds do not understand what the BLENDEDS did during the past criminal coverups. These blendeds, along with the local leaders and the saints, don't have a clue what the BLENDEDS have done over the years during those so-called "storms," which were never really "storms" or rebellions, but men of God speaking their conscience against the evils perpetrated by Witness Lee, his sons Timothy and Phillip, and the BLENDEDS.

Rhetorically speaking, what is a "blended" and where in the Bible is there such a thing as a "blended"? The Apostles? I don't think they represented a publishing company.

Historically there was Nee who actually had a ministry of his own. He "passed the baton" to Lee who actually had a ministry of his own. Regardless of the merits of these two "ministries" there was a man behind each ministry. To who or what did Lee "pass the baton"? A publishing company?

What defines a "ministry"? I had always believed that a "ministry" was personal to an individual. We each have a "calling" or a "talent" or a "gift" from the Lord that can be considered our ministry or at least the course given to each of us to run.

Among Christians in ages past, when a minister dies, his ministry dies with him. This works because of Jesus...the Author and Finisher of our faith! Paul makes this clear when, at the time of his death he told us 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: (KJV) So it would seem to stand that Nee finished his course and Lee finished his course.

There are exceptions such as Luther and the Lutheran denomination, but as we know "denomination" is not something the followers of Lee believe to be true about "the ministry" of Lee and in my mind is a different matter altogether than the actual ministry of Luther. Other denominations were founded based on the ministry of a man, now deceased.

There are of course "ministers" who wrote many books. Then, look at the ministry of Billy Graham. He was an evangelist who wrote a few books, but does anyone actually follow the "ministry" of Billy Graham? Even his two children have ministries of their own unrelated to their father in that they do not hold evangelical crusades as their father did.

So now we have the ministry of Nee-->Lee-->"blendeds" which represent a publishing company. This is very unusual and certainly not represented in scripture. It would seem to be very difficult to carry on a ministry that is not yours. So difficult that a YouTube video is needed on how to do it. This is also very strange. The apostles were only able to carry on the New Testament ministry of Jesus Christ because of his death and resurrection. He is fully qualified as our Redeemer, and He in fact lives inside of us...and so much more.

This is a ministry which has stood for millennia. Do we need another?

John the Baptist said, John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. WL said that (in spite of John knowing he should decrease) John the Baptist was in competition with Jesus. He was sent to prepare the way, and when Jesus came, John's ministry was over. When John did not end his ministry, eventually his head was cut off and Jesus did not intervene to stop it from happening.

This might support the notion that all other ministers, at their death, give way to the one who lives on eternally and is, in fact, a living minister...the one who is fully able to sustain HIS New Testament ministry which belongs to Him and Him alone.

No doubt in my mind about how much to throw out!

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Rhetorically speaking, what is a "blended" and where in the Bible is there such a thing as a "blended"? The Apostles? I don't think they represented a publishing company.

The only scant reference in scripture is I Cor 12.24 which in context speaks of providing more honor to the less comely members of the body of Christ. How ironic it is that LSM actively pursues "good material" in their outreach programs, at the expense of those members these verses are directed towards, with the result that there be no division in the body. How very characteristic it is of LSM to extract one word from the Bible, twist its meaning, and then promote a policy absolutely contrary to that scripture.

Read these verses in light of what we know about LSM:

On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. -- I Cor 12.22-25

LSM's use of this word "composed" or in other places translated "tempered or blended" was never intended to be applied to a somewhat mysterious and unnamed group of global leaders at a west coast publishing house, who are accountable to only a dead minister, and not to any living members of the churches they rule over.

[HERn]

School's out now, but soon after we changed schools a girl in our daughter's new class texted her asking if the could date "because it is ok for girls can date girls now"! We were a home schooling family until this year and now this after what happened in her other school! My wife talked to the teachers who kept an eye on the two in PE changing areas and such. I think the Lord gave us grace not to freak out and start bible thumping! It's sad this girl and another one who our daughter is friends with are precious souls trying to make life work out for them. We are praying for them and plan to invite them over so they can be around the loving and feeding Christ. Maybe Love and Hope will be present and take care of these precious lambs? They will never be good material for the LSM training because they are learning disabled, but I believe the Shepherd still seeks them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think the Lord gave us grace not to freak out. . .

The power of the gospel is that it gives us the capability to remain calm, and circumspect, even when our surroundings give us ample opportunity to freak out.

I always remember that apart from God's grace I'd be among the most reprehensible. But He met me, there. And the indwelling Spirit is pleased, in us, to meet others where they are. And yet the Spirit is and always remains Holy.

"'Tis mystery all"

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

The power of the gospel is that it gives us the capability to remain calm, and circumspect, even when our surroundings give us ample opportunity to freak out.

I always remember that apart from God's grace I'd be among the most reprehensible. But He met me, there. And the indwelling Spirit is pleased, in us, to meet others where they are. And yet the Spirit is and always remains Holy.

"'Tis mystery all"

It is a mystery! How could a God in the flesh eat with sinners, be touched by prostitutes, touch lepers, and give his flesh to be tortured? He came as a slave a lamb to be slain. One of my last functions before leaving the LC was serve on "security" at a conference were RK was speaking. After the meeting had already started RK and his entourage of blendeds and elders left the preparation room and marched in to the chief front row seats while all the saints admired the constituted, dedicated, absolute brothers leading the so-called recovery.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

It is a mystery! How could a God in the flesh eat with sinners, be touched by prostitutes, touch lepers, and give his flesh to be tortured? He came as a slave a lamb to be slain. One of my last functions before leaving the LC was serve on "security" at a conference were RK was speaking. After the meeting had already started RK and his entourage of blendeds and elders left the preparation room and marched in to the chief front row seats while all the saints admired the constituted, dedicated, absolute brothers leading the so-called recovery.

Do you think that some kind of like to have the prime seats in a meeting?

Don't be like the leaders of the LCM who cherish the best seats.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

Do you think that some kind of like to have the prime seats in a meeting?

Don't be like the leaders of the LCM who cherish the best seats.

In every conference I've been in that features RK as the headliner RK he and the blendeds and elders come into the meeting well after it is started, and all the front row seats have cards with "reserved" on them. An older sister from Ohio that they used to set in the "reserved" elders seats do that when they came out of the preparation room they had to find somewhere else to sit!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

It is a mystery! How could a God in the flesh eat with sinners, be touched by prostitutes, touch lepers, and give his flesh to be tortured? He came as a slave a lamb to be slain. One of my last functions before leaving the LC was serve on "security" at a conference were RK was speaking. After the meeting had already started RK and his entourage of blendeds and elders left the preparation room and marched in to the chief front row seats while all the saints admired the constituted, dedicated, absolute brothers leading the so-called recovery.

They actually called it "security"? What was that all about?

Nell

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Nell

They actually called it "security"? What was that all about?

Nell

Some of us brothers were stationed around the hotel conference center with radios to watch the goings on. I was nearest the praying room and when the came out I alerted the other security brothers that they were coming in.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

Some of us brothers were stationed around the hotel conference center with radios to watch the goings on. I was nearest the praying room and when the came out I alerted the other security brothers that they were coming in.

When I went to the semi-annual trainings, they always had brothers assigned to walk up and down the aisles throughout the meeting and make sure that no one was recording anything. It was disconcerting.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

When I went to the semi-annual trainings, they always had brothers assigned to walk up and down the aisles throughout the meeting and make sure that no one was recording anything. It was disconcerting.

Is that right?

I thought they were just taking attendance, which was bad enough.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that right?

I thought they were just taking attendance, which was bad enough.

Most likely they were doing both, but they would pass by multiple times, eyeing everyone in the row.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

When I went to the semi-annual trainings, they always had brothers assigned to walk up and down the aisles throughout the meeting and make sure that no one was recording anything. It was disconcerting.

Could it be they learned from the man of death conference LSM needs to have full control over all recordings or else it could end up on the internet?

Certainly the brother from Bolivia who did the recording was intended, but the brother's server the recording was placed on was on his way out.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Could it be they learned from the man of death conference LSM needs to have full control over all recordings or else it could end up on the internet?

Certainly the brother from Bolivia who did the recording was intended, but the brother's server the recording was placed on was on his way out.

Why should Christians worry about recordings. Have they not read about things said in secret will be shouted from the rooftops?

Since their common vindication is that others always take their words "out of context," should not they be pleased when others try to get the context right?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

Could it be they learned from the man of death conference LSM needs to have full control over all recordings or else it could end up on the internet?

Certainly the brother from Bolivia who did the recording was intended, but the brother's server the recording was placed on was on his way out.

I'm sure Ron was quite surprised when his "man of death" tirade found it's way onto the internet. In most situations they have complete control how these messages are later sanitized. The raw recordings tell a completely different story.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I'm sure Ron was quite surprised when his "man of death" tirade found it's way onto the internet. In most situations they have complete control how these messages are later sanitized. The raw recordings tell a completely different story.

If there wasn't such a disparity between the spoken word and the published word LSM distributes, there's wouldn't be much of an issue.
However by contrast those who have attended West Coast Conferences where Stephen Kaung among other brothers speak, those messages are printed verbatim.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Terry

Could it be they learned from the man of death conference LSM needs to have full control over all recordings or else it could end up on the internet?

Certainly the brother from Bolivia who did the recording was intended, but the brother's server the recording was placed on was on his way out.

Man of death conference? What is THAT?

Nell

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Nell

Man of death conference? What is THAT?

Nell

That is the conference in which Ron slandered Indiana:
http://makingstraightthewayofthelord...riptKangas.pdf

[NewManLiving]

Ron Kangus gives new meaning to the word ludicrous. For anyone that can stomach reading his nauseating nonsense, it is quite apparent that Ron would not know Life if it smacked him on the head. As a matter of fact, he is more "in his mind" than anyone else. His twisting of scripture along with his self-serving logic is pure garbage. His goal is to maintain complete control of the LSM business and to keep it profitable. His opening word concerning the relationship between the work and the churches is most revealing. In other words, the churches are for the work - to support it and to keep it financially viable. This was NOT the goal or the ministry of any of the New Testament apostles, although Ron tries to coerce his audience into believing this. This is exactly what happens when you are puffed up and deliberately throw your conscience into the trash bin. The only man of death is Ron himself. Ron and his ilk have a long history of bringing death and destruction to individuals and entire congregations. It's the blind leading the blind.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Man of death conference? What is THAT?

Nell

In the aftermath of LSM's quarantine of Yu Long Dong and all of Brazil, Ron Kangas went to Equador? in South America to rally the few remaining troops. He felt compelled to warn them about the dangers of the internet because that's where the "man of death" Steve Isitt was hanging out.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Ron Kangus gives new meaning to the word ludicrous. For anyone that can stomach reading his nauseating nonsense, it is quite apparent that Ron would not know Life if it smacked him on the head. As a matter of fact, he is more "in his mind" than anyone else. His twisting of scripture along with his self-serving logic is pure garbage. His goal is to maintain complete control of the LSM business and to keep it profitable. His opening word concerning the relationship between the work and the churches is most revealing. In other words, the churches are for the work - to support it and to keep it financially viable. This was NOT the goal or the ministry of any of the New Testament apostles, although Ron tries to coerce his audience into believing this. This is exactly what happens when you are puffed up and deliberately throw your conscience into the trash bin. The only man of death is Ron himself. Ron and his ilk have a long history of bringing death and destruction to individuals and entire congregations. It's the blind leading the blind.

Well said. So well said!

"THE WORK," as Kangas describes it, has done everything it could to exalt their man above the Head, and destroy the spiritual reality of the body of Christ.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Ron Kangus gives new meaning to the word ludicrous. For anyone that can stomach reading his nauseating nonsense, it is quite apparent that Ron would not know Life if it smacked him on the head. As a matter of fact, he is more "in his mind" than anyone else. His twisting of scripture along with his self-serving logic is pure garbage. His goal is to maintain complete control of the LSM business and to keep it profitable. His opening word concerning the relationship between the work and the churches is most revealing. In other words, the churches are for the work - to support it and to keep it financially viable. This was NOT the goal or the ministry of any of the New Testament apostles, although Ron tries to coerce his audience into believing this. This is exactly what happens when you are puffed up and deliberately throw your conscience into the trash bin. The only man of death is Ron himself. Ron and his ilk have a long history of bringing death and destruction to individuals and entire congregations. It's the blind leading the blind.

Well said.

Yeah, Kangas's thinking is circular. To wit: Avoid death. What's death? Death to him is anything negative about the Recovery. To Kangas, being negative about Steve Isitt, even to the point of calling him the most evil person and a man of death, is not death. But Isitt being "negative" about anything Kangas likes is "death."

That is not spiritual discernment. That is a conditioned response based on how one has been indoctrinated. I find it interesting that Kangas doesn't have the nerve to speak in terms of the Holy Spirit or the Lord or God's word. He dwells in this nebulous realm of "life," which can be stretched to include any sensation or mean whatever one wants it to mean.

I sensed death the other day. Someone criticized my favorite football team. That bummed me out. The person plainly was full of death and should be shunned. That is basically the realm Kangas operates in.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Ron Kangus gives new meaning to the word ludicrous. For anyone that can stomach reading his nauseating nonsense, it is quite apparent that Ron would not know Life if it smacked him on the head. As a matter of fact, he is more "in his mind" than anyone else. His twisting of scripture along with his self-serving logic is pure garbage. His goal is to maintain complete control of the LSM business and to keep it profitable. His opening word concerning the relationship between the work and the churches is most revealing. In other words, the churches are for the work - to support it and to keep it financially viable. This was NOT the goal or the ministry of any of the New Testament apostles, although Ron tries to coerce his audience into believing this. This is exactly what happens when you are puffed up and deliberately throw your conscience into the trash bin. The only man of death is Ron himself. Ron and his ilk have a long history of bringing death and destruction to individuals and entire congregations. It's the blind leading the blind.

It's all about finances and revenue. To retain localities who are streams of revenue for Living Stream. When Steve Isitt's writings place Witness Lee and blended coworkers under the microscope, Ron reacted as he did. It's not about what's true or what's fabricated, but what's best for business; Living Stream Minstry's business.
So when Ron manipulates those in attendance and those listening, it's about sensing death. That can be applied to a wide spectrum; politics, sports, etc. When I go to a Local Church meeting (Renton, San Bernardino, etc) and I began hearing non-LC Christians ridiculed as "seeing nothing", or "those in the denominations"; I sense death. When I read what Ron Kangas and Kerry Robichaux had to say about John Ingalls or what afaithfulword had to say about Titus Chu and Nigel Tomes, I sense death.

[NewManLiving]

Ron Kangus said
"..I go to the website for DCP; and, I read something on [www.afaithfulword.org], and I sense life. I’m enlivened, I’m enlightened"

This is a perfect example of manipulation. In other words, do not turn to the Lord for a sense of Life but rather turn to DCP. This proves that brother Ron is completely deceived. It also shows that he is leading others in the same direction by instilling a false sense of Life through brain-washing. Eventually those exposed to Ron and his ilk develop an erroneous sense of life and death. This conditioning is not confined to the local church but can be as extreme as the political systems in North Korea and other dictatorial countries. No difference in method, just degree. Dear brother Ron: The Lord Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The LIFE! There is no Life except in Christ Jesus. Where were you when the prevailing theme was "Christ is Life"?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Ron Kangus said
"..I go to the website for DCP; and, I read something on [www.afaithfulword.org], and I sense life. I’m enlivened, I’m enlightened"

This is a perfect example of manipulation. In other words, do not turn to the Lord for a sense of Life but rather turn to DCP. This proves that brother Ron is completely deceived. It also shows that he is leading others in the same direction by instilling a false sense of Life through brain-washing. Eventually those exposed to Ron and his ilk develop an erroneous sense of life and death. This conditioning is not confined to the local church but can be as extreme as the political systems in North Korea and other dictatorial countries. No difference in method, just degree. Dear brother Ron: The Lord Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The LIFE! There is no Life except in Christ Jesus. Where were you when the prevailing theme was "Christ is Life"?

In fact, where in the Bible are there verses about "sense life"?

In addition to manipulation, turning to DCP for a "sense of life" is also a conditioned response. You turn to DCP to make you feel good because you are conditioned by those in power over you. When you do what you're told, you "sense life", or you feel relief that you may go a few more days without being in trouble with the elders.

"Sense of Life" in LC terms is about how you feel. You can be genuinely convicted by the Holy Spirit and the Word, of sin in your life and you may not "feel good" or you may not "sense life". So what do you do? Reject the Holy Spirit's working and/or the clear Word of God because it doesn't "feel good"?

The "sense of life" teaching a false teaching. It is subjective and is not founded in the Word and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. If you call what you feel a "sense of life", it must always be tested by the Spirit and the Word, because:

2 Cor. 11:14 ... for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will correspond to their actions.

Ephesians 6:12
For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against persons without bodies—the evil rulers of the unseen world, those mighty satanic beings and great evil princes of darkness who rule this world; and against huge numbers of wicked spirits in the spirit world.

Nell

[NewManLiving]

While I totally agree with your reasoning we are after all human. We do sense things. When we pray many times we sense the Lord's presence. If we should sin we generally loose this peace and have a sense of being uncomfortable until sincere repentance is made and forgiveness is obtained. So I will not argue the terminology employed by the LC. In the early days it simply meant fellowship or lack of fellowship with the Lord. He is our Life and we do sense it. We also sense when we are disobedient. Call it what you will it exists. This is normal. But we all agree that the LC has given a new manipulative twist on the whole concept.

[Cal]

I've long maintained that the pressure to conform to Lee/LSM/"the brothers"/the Vision/etc is so great in the LC movement that true discernment of the Lord's leading by LCM members is emotionally impossible. Does anyone think that someone indoctrinated to believe that leaving the LCM will result in judgment by God could hear God telling them otherwise? I don't see how it's possible without distancing oneself from the emotional threat of not conforming.

LCMers are trained to be suspicious of and even fear any sense of God's leading which goes against their indoctrination. True freedom to follow the Spirit does not exist there. Kangas's "sense of life" is thus by definition tainted and unreliable.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

While I totally agree with your reasoning we are after all human. We do sense things. When we pray many times we sense the Lord's presence. If we should sin we generally loose this peace and have a sense of being uncomfortable until sincere repentance is made and forgiveness is obtained. So I will not argue the terminology employed by the LC. In the early days it simply meant fellowship or lack of fellowship with the Lord. He is our Life and we do sense it. We also sense when we are disobedient. Call it what you will it exists. This is normal. But we all agree that the LC has given a new manipulative twist on the whole concept.

True story:

Once upon a time I was driving my car and there were 3-4 saints with me. We were on a trip from Houston to New Orleans I think. One was an obnoxious young brother who sat in the back seat bellowing out "Oh Lord Jesus". On and on it went. I was getting nervous in traffic and was totally distracted by both the brother and the traffic.

Finally, during a pause in the action, I said to the brother with the kindest tone I could muster under the circumstances and said sweetly: "Now that you're in your spirit, would you mind lowering the volume?"

I don't know who was more shocked by my request...him or me. Where was the "sense of life" in this case? Would the "sense of life", if genuine, clue this brother in that he needed to show some concern for others and the situation at hand? He was totally absorbed in the ritual he had learned in the LC and didn't care about anyone but himself.

We do "sense things", but is the Holy Spirit obnoxious? Rude? Clueless as to how his actions were affecting others? The "sense of life" teaching is too subjective...that's my point. This brother was "sensing life" and I was "sensing death" at the same time and in the same situation.

Another true story:
Way back in Houston, a sister visited the meeting. She was paraplegic and confined to a wheel chair. She was very sweet and a bunch of us single sisters went to Ray Graver and told him we wanted to invite her to move in to the sisters house. Sense of life, right?

What was Ray's response? "You're not that good." Blunt? Rude?

"Life" or "death"? The correct answer is "truth". He was right. We sisters were in no way prepared to take care of this sister's special and demanding needs. We loved this new sister. Our "sense of life" wanted to help her. It would have been a disaster. As good as our intentions were, we would have ended up in a huge mess. We didn't pray about it. We didn't "fellowship" about it. We just went by our feelings.

The "sense of life" is based on emotions and is not something you can live by.

Nell

[Cal]

I understand what you are saying, Nell. But in the case of apprehending the leading of the Holy Spirit, just what is that experience like to you? Some people say He matches the Bible. Yes, but which interpretation of the Bible? Calvinism or Arminianism? Covenant or Dispensational Theology? So ultimately the Spirit's leading is not just a logical deduction of the Bible's meaning. It's more than that. Ultimately it is a real and subjective experience of God himself guiding us.

A "sense of life" in the the most positive meaning is just a sense of the Spirit's leading. The Bible does say that to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Rom 8:6). I think "life" there is something that is experienced. To me a "sense of life" is just that sense of the presence and approval of the Holy Spirit. I don't use the term "sense of life" anymore, though. I just say "I sensed the Spirit" or "felt the Spirit" or something else more mainstream. But the experience is real and of course it is subjective. Every personal experience of God we have is subjective.

So I think you are going a bit far calling a "sense of life" just emotion. However, I do agree in the case of the LCM, the "sense of life" is often nothing more than a code word for the sense of what you'd better do to stay out of the doghouse with the leading ones. It's another way they bully people.

Again the thread topic is "what to throw out." Throwing out a subjective experience of the Lord's leading is going too far, even if someone wants to call it "the sense of life." Any idea can be abused by the LCM or anyone else, so just because someone abused it doesn't make it bathwater.

But I'm with you to say that those in the LCM often don't know the sense of life from indigestion, which may explain why Ron Kangas, Minoru Chen and the rest always look so dyspeptic when then are "sharing."

[NewManLiving]

Well put! To a normal Christian a sense of Life is simply following the Holy Spirit. This brings a sense of Life and Peace. The LC rote chanting that Nell describes has nothing to do with it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I understand what you are saying, Nell. But in the case of apprehending the leading of the Holy Spirit, just what is that experience like to you? Some people say He matches the Bible. Yes, but which interpretation of the Bible? Calvinism or Arminianism? Covenant or Dispensational Theology? So ultimately the Spirit's leading is not just a logical deduction of the Bible's meaning. It's more than that. Ultimately it is a real and subjective experience of God himself guiding us.

A "sense of life" in the the most positive meaning is just a sense of the Spirit's leading. The Bible does say that to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Rom 8:6). I think "life" there is something that is experienced. To me a "sense of life" is just that sense of the presence and approval of the Holy Spirit. I don't use the term "sense of life" anymore, though. I just say "I sensed the Spirit" or "felt the Spirit" or something else more mainstream. But the experience is real and of course it is subjective. Every personal experience of God we have is subjective.

So I think you are going a bit far calling a "sense of life" just emotion. However, I do agree in the case of the LCM, the "sense of life" is often nothing more than a code word for the sense of what you'd better do to stay out of the doghouse with the leading ones. It's another way they bully people.

Again the thread topic is "what to throw out." Throwing out a subjective experience of the Lord's leading is going too far, even if someone wants to call it "the sense of life." Any idea can be abused by the LCM or anyone else, so just because someone abused it doesn't make it bathwater.

But I'm with you to say that those in the LCM often don't know the sense of life from indigestion, which may explain why Ron Kangas, Minoru Chen and the rest always look so dyspeptic when then are "sharing."

I guess I didn't explain what I mean very well. Of course, I don't believe the genuine leading of the Holy Spirit is "just emotion". I believe I said "based on" emotion, but I was talking about the LC "sense life" teaching...not the leading and guidance by God Himself. Unless someone can provide verses to the contrary, I believe that the LC "sense of life" teaching is not based on the clear teaching of the Word but relies on what folks like RK tells you is "life".

I gave two examples in my post below which to me illustrate that "sense life" is not reliable as the LC teaches it. In the LC context, "life" is what the leadership says it is.

In my experience, Jesus is my best friend. I talk to him often every day. He talks to me. He takes care of me. He is a real person to me. Lately I have had quite a few experiences where I realized that He had answered my prayers. I had asked for His help in a certain part of my life and I realized, even today, that He was taking care of me more completely than I could imagine or ask. I would take this over a "sense of life" any day.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Ron Kangus said
"..I go to the website for DCP; and, I read something on [www.afaithfulword.org], and I sense life. I’m enlivened, I’m enlightened"

This is a perfect example of manipulation. In other words, do not turn to the Lord for a sense of Life but rather turn to DCP. This proves that brother Ron is completely deceived. It also shows that he is leading others in the same direction by instilling a false sense of Life through brain-washing. Eventually those exposed to Ron and his ilk develop an erroneous sense of life and death. This conditioning is not confined to the local church but can be as extreme as the political systems in North Korea and other dictatorial countries. No difference in method, just degree. Dear brother Ron: The Lord Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The LIFE! There is no Life except in Christ Jesus. Where were you when the prevailing theme was "Christ is Life"?

We have mentioned on this site, before, about the young Nee, still a teenager, curious, and not under any formal constraints. His only constraint being the counsel of Margaret Barber, and he even rejected that, because he had the itch. So he surreptitiously read the "forbidden books" of the inner life, and he got "life", so we presume. And that, institutionalized, opened the floodgates.

Thus we see "life" operating in the Maximum Leader, who could reject any other Christian peer. Witness Lee "didn't get life" in having any counsel. Additionally, the "sense of life" could cause this self-styled oracle of God to reject Scripture as merely the fallen concepts of sinners. And I'm not talking about one or two verses, but dozens of chapters. Dozens. Both Old Testament and New. They don't match up to the "high peak revelation" of God's present oracle, so-called. So the assembly got "life" chanting Lee's banners and outlines, but no life in God's word? What basis is there to treat the Word of God this way? Where is the Christian precedent? No, it is based on Lee's sense of life.

Comparing the LC life to North Korea, in this analysis, is not far-fetched. In both, the whims of fallen human beings are held as the equivalent to divine fiat. Something gave Witness Lee "life", and now it is LC reality; continual, ritual, habitual, and rigidly enforced by the program zealots and the mob they control. Speak something of Lee, verbatim if possible, and the assembly cries, "amen!"; speak something of the Spirit leading you through the word, and you get silence, and empty stares. If you persist you get restless stirrings, even groans and sighs from the LC drones. And then the enforcers will be on you. You'll be marked as "independent", daring, not under "restrictions" to remain tethered to Lee's ministry. This threatens the program leadership, and the stability of the ministry's flock.

Folks, if anyone comes to you, promoting the names of Watchman Nee or Witness Lee, run away. "For freedom, Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery." Amen, Lord Jesus, amen. Reject slavery in all its forms. Religious, spiritual, organizational.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I understand what you are saying, Nell. But in the case of apprehending the leading of the Holy Spirit, just what is that experience like to you? Some people say He matches the Bible. Yes, but which interpretation of the Bible? Calvinism or Arminianism? Covenant or Dispensational Theology? So ultimately the Spirit's leading is not just a logical deduction of the Bible's meaning. It's more than that. Ultimately it is a real and subjective experience of God himself guiding us.

Without reference to the rest of your post where you discuss other aspects of a sense of the Spirit's leading, I note that most of the Spirit's leading is not about Calvinism or Arminianism, Covenant or Dispensational Theology, etc. In other words, not really much about doctrines.

Instead, the leading of the Holy Spirit is with regard to our living. It is not about whether I can or cannot lose my salvation. But it will lead me to repentance where that is required no matter whether you think you may or may not have lost your salvation. (And there is something to be said for — or maybe against — a common Calvinist position of skipping the real repentance and just claiming the blood, or claiming grace, or whatever is the formula of the particular day or group.) I lean Calvinist but do not entirely discount the Arminian view. I am less enamored with Dispensationalism though that is the primary theology of my assembly of choice.

But none of those are the things that the Spirit speaks to me about. More like my anger when driving in rush hour traffic. Or my wasting of too much of my evenings. And so forth. Nothing Calvinist or Arminian in either of those.

The only place where there might be some problem is when we come to the Bible with a mindset that the kinds of commands to deal righteously with everyone is set aside because of false teachings. Or biblical justice for the widow, orphan, homeless, sojourner, etc., is for the liberals and the soup kitchens because we are no longer under the law. But that is not a problem of Calvinism, Arminianism, Covenant theology or Dispensational theology. It is simply ignoring the Bible because it suits us.

I think the only sense we typically get about doctrines is a sense of pride in thinking ours is the better way to think about it. But let's get real. If you need to repent, you need to repent. Doesn't matter whether you think about it from a Calvinist or Arminian viewpoint. And whatever you think will happen in the end times, what actually happens will be what actually happens. It really won't matter if you expected it or thought it would be different. And it shouldn't affect whether or not you believe in Jesus. What might make a difference, if any, is whether I believe (present tense, not past tense) in the Son of God. That means I should be living as if I believe (not just believed on date X after having the Roman Road shown to me by someone doing evangelism on a campus).

[OBW]

. . . but I was talking about the LC "sense life" teaching...not the leading and guidance by God Himself. Unless someone can provide verses to the contrary, I believe that the LC "sense of life" teaching is not based on the clear teaching of the Word but relies on what folks like RK tells you is "life".

That is probably a good way to describe it.

For me the real question comes down to what kind of "sense of life" should we rely on that is not the guidance of God himself (however it is that he does it)? I mean, if I am getting some kind of sense that is not from God, then what is it really? Probably either some kind of emotion, or me thinking that I've figured something out on my own without the need of God's input.

I guess that seems a lot like me deciding what is good and evil without God's input via the Spirit or the word.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

But none of those are the things that the Spirit speaks to me about. More like my anger when driving in rush hour traffic. Or my wasting of too much of my evenings. And so forth. Nothing Calvinist or Arminian in either of those.

I get your point. But there are plenty of practical living issues that--apparently given current thinking--are hard to determine by simply reading the Bible. For example:

Is gay marriage valid?

Is abortion permitted?

Can married couples divorce?

Can we sue other Christians?

There are arguments on both sides of these questions, and Christians line up both ways. So without some kind of direct guidance from God, simply knowing the Scriptures seems inadequate.

Thoughts?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

That is probably a good way to describe it.

For me the real question comes down to what kind of "sense of life" should we rely on that is not the guidance of God himself (however it is that he does it)? I mean, if I am getting some kind of sense that is not from God, then what is it really? Probably either some kind of emotion, or me thinking that I've figured something out on my own without the need of God's input.

I guess that seems a lot like me deciding what is good and evil without God's input via the Spirit or the word.

OBW,

I know you know this, but this is my take on the topic. We walk by faith. By faith, we always have God's input whether we hear it or not. Good and evil are defined in the Word. The more time we spend reading the Word, the more often we may receive a "timely word" to confirm what direction it seems the Lord is leading. Actually that could be confirm or deny. Our goal is to listen to the voice of our Shepherd..."my sheep hear my voice and they follow me." Is that a "sense"? Not to me.

Many times I have prayed something like "Lord, I WANT to do this...I think it's you, but I'm not sure. Please slow me down or stop me if I'm wrong. I want you more than I want "this". I messed up plenty. That was as helpful as getting it right. I learned that walking by faith involved "trust and obey". When I messed up, I repented. Asked for forgiveness and continued to walk.

I've been having this conversation with Him for my entire life. My entire "walk". I got saved when I was a very young child. I don't remember a time that He wasn't real to me. I didn't always recognize that it was Him, but in hindsight, I recognize his hand in my life.

How many times has the LC "sense of life" teaching provided options on a direction for your walk or encouraged you to seek the Lord's guidance ahead of theirs? You are TOLD where to go, what to do, when to do it, what to read, what to think, and NEVER to ask questions. And THIS gives you the LC "sense of life". You march, in step, OR ELSE.

It may sound like semantics, but I know what I mean! :-) Sorry I can't pass it on better. Bottom line I guess is that Jesus didn't say his sheep would "sense life". He said his sheep "hear his voice", and to me that means WORDS. I've never heard an audible but I've heard words in my heart, my soul, my mind.

Sorry --
Nell

[aron]

The Key is the Word. God has spoken to us in the Son, whom He made Heir of all things.

The Word of Scripture testifies of the Incarnate Son, Crucified for us, and now Glorified in Heaven, in Whom are found all dominions, thrones and lordships. There is no other name by which to be saved. None.

The Word of Scripture does not testify to the Church, or God's Deputy, or Ages of Grace and Law and so forth. The Word of Scripture does not testify of God's Current Move on the Earth, or of some hidden and now recovered Truth. The Word of Scripture testifies of the Son. The Holy Spirit reveals the Son, and the Son is the Way to the Father. There is nothing else. Don't be tricked, or waylaid by smooth talkers and teachers.

The Apostles' job was to point to the Prophets and declare, "They foresaw the Coming Christ". See Peter on the Day of Pentecost, for example. Everything else reinforces this; any seeming additional "detail" which tends to cause us to look away, is to be held very carefully, if at all. Our job as believers who follow the Apostles is to point to them (the Apostles), who are pointing to the Prophets pointing to Jesus. There is one, unified Word.

As Nell wrote, "My sheep hear My voice." There is One Voice, that of Jesus Christ. None other are trustworthy. All voices point to the One Voice, or should.

The so-called Ground, and then the so-called Deputy Authority; these were deviations, distracting us from the Voice from Heaven. Eventually we were swirled into the maelstrom.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

It may sound like semantics, but I know what I mean! :-) Sorry I can't pass it on better. Bottom line I guess is that Jesus didn't say his sheep would "sense life". He said his sheep "hear his voice", and to me that means WORDS. I've never heard an audible but I've heard words in my heart, my soul, my mind.

I'm with you, Nell. I'm on record as saying that one of Lee's biggest blunders was to separate "life" from the Person of Christ. (Remember Lee contrasting "taking Christ as your life" with "taking Christ as your person?" The irony is not only was splitting them wrong, both individually as defined by Lee were wrong.)

Yes, we are in relationship with a Person, he speaks to us as a person. We should never forget that God is always a Person, metaphorical descriptions of him (food, water, life, power, etc.) notwithstanding. The fact is Lee used the term "Christ" in a depersonalized way, almost as if he was speaking of a substance rather than a person. I remember a brother I lived with commenting that "Christ" was a kind of "stuff," like a protein drink or something, to be imbibed to gain it's benefits directly, without needing a real personal relationship.

A depersonalized God is an error that leads to more errors.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I get your point. But there are plenty of practical living issues that--apparently given current thinking--are hard to determine by simply reading the Bible. For example:

Is gay marriage valid?

Is abortion permitted?

Can married couples divorce?

Can we sue other Christians?

There are arguments on both sides of these questions, and Christians line up both ways. So without some kind of direct guidance from God, simply knowing the Scriptures seems inadequate.

Thoughts?

There are "questions", but some questions you don't need to ask. The Scriptures are totally adequate. Disobedience of Scriptures is sin. Questioning the Scriptures today is about political correctness. Political correctness in the church is a blight. It's an offense to God's work on the cross and His Holiness.

Jesus bore our sins on the cross and he died that we might be saved from our sins. Sin is sin. You have to call it what it is because of what Jesus did.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all unrighteousness."

The Bible hasn't changed. It's dangerous to think that "simply knowing the Scriptures is inadequate." "The Word of God is absolute and is not subject to man's relationship to it." W. Nee

In a society driven by political correctness---not to mention the church being driven by political correctness, your list above is about as controversial as it gets. The answer is still Jesus. Jesus died on the cross to save his people from their sins. We pray that the church will be the glorious church that can be presented to Him as his bride...without spot or wrinkle. We pray that the church will wake up and return to the Word and its authority. From here, we pray for leading to respond to the questions you list, speaking the truth in love.

This is where you have to start. You cannot waver from the authority of the Word because it's not MY word. It's HIS word and it has not changed and will not change at the whim of today's fallen social culture.

The earth is the Lords. He created it. The land is His. The man he created has dominion over it. This man failed and fell into sin. Our loving God and Father made a way for the man he created to be redeemed from the fall. In many ways this man is still falling. Yet redemption is still available to all who repent and believe.

The darker the church becomes, the greater is our need for perspective...a "God's eye view" of what He has done for us. As He said to Job "Where were YOU when the foundation of the world was laid?"

Igzy, I don't mean to poke my finger in your eye without a poke in my own. There are my thoughts. In my Christian life my "go to" is "Some questions you don't need to ask."

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy, I don't mean to poke my finger in your eye without a poke in my own. There are my thoughts. In my Christian life my "go to" is "Some questions you don't need to ask."

Nell

My point was simply that mentally knowing the Scriptures is not enough because without the leading of the Holy Spirit we cannot really know them. Obviously God knows exactly what each verse means and what the whole means. But none of us do, not completely anyway. So there is disagreement. Two people might each think they know the Scriptures, but what if they disagree? At least one of them has to be wrong.

My point was some people equate "knowing the Scriptures" with knowing God, or knowing truth. But if your interpretation is wrong that can't be true. The question is, whose interpretation is correct?

Ultimately we each have to be "fully persuaded in our own minds." That's really the best we can do.

When you think about it, this is the only way it could be. If we really believed the Scriptures were so cut and dried that total agreement on them by everyone was possible there would be no personal freedom in the Church, toeing the line would be expected. This, in fact, is the LCM error. They think they have the Bible so figured out that any disagreement with them is evidence of error or worse.

As for "some questions you don't need to ask." That might work for you, but it can't work for a group, because it's pretty similar to "don't rock the boat." You have a level of inquisitiveness that your are comfortable with. That's doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

My point was simply that mentally knowing the Scriptures is not enough because without the leading of the Holy Spirit we cannot really know them. Obviously God knows exactly what each verse means and what the whole means. But none of us do, not completely anyway. So there is disagreement. Two people might each think they know the Scriptures, but what if they disagree? At least one of them has to be wrong.

My point was some people equate "knowing the Scriptures" with knowing God, or knowing truth. But if your interpretation is wrong that can't be true. The question is, whose interpretation is correct?

Ultimately we each have to be "fully persuaded in our own minds." That's really the best we can do.

When you think about it, this is the only way it could be. If we really believed the Scriptures were so cut and dried that total agreement on them by everyone was possible there would be no personal freedom in the Church, toeing the line would be expected. This, in fact, is the LCM error. They think they have the Bible so figured out that any disagreement with them is evidence of error or worse.

As for "some questions you don't need to ask." That sound eerily like "get out of your mind."

"Some" questions. Not ALL questions.

Exactly. Man is the problem. Not the Scriptures.

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I get your point. But there are plenty of practical living issues that--apparently given current thinking--are hard to determine by simply reading the Bible. For example:

Is gay marriage valid?

Is abortion permitted?

Can married couples divorce?

Can we sue other Christians?

There are arguments on both sides of these questions, and Christians line up both ways. So without some kind of direct guidance from God, simply knowing the Scriptures seems inadequate.

Thoughts?

I have begun listening to some of the podcasts generated by Dallas Theological Seminary. They are not entirely toe-the-line Dispensational, Calvinist, anti-(whatever) pabulum, although you do know where they are coming from.

For example, one of the Professors at DTS was the guest on the podcast discussing women in ministry. She (yes, she) is a member of a Bible church in the area that made headlines for allowing women to preach from their pulpit. (So a seminary that generally holds to no women preaching ahs a woman professor attending a Bible church that allows women to preach.) And the discussion was in no way anti-women preaching.

But in another, the guest was a preacher in a very different tradition who recently wrote a book on the issues of LGBT and the church. His perspective is from having his parents divorce when he was young because his mom was lesbian. He discovered later that his dad was also gay but kept it secret. Despite the distress of his mother when he decided to go to seminary and become a preacher, he took on an assistant pastorate. One day when he was scheduled to preach he invited his mother to come. Much to his surprise, she did. But after the service the church leadership took him aside and requested that he never invite such people to their church again. So he resigned. His views on the subject, while never stated in a black-and-white way, were what you might expect of a "good Christian" with one exception. He believes that salvation is for everyone, and that like so many besetting sins that are struggled with over one's lifetime, having same-sex attractions is among them. And God deals with each of us on these things. That does not mean that churches should not have standards or positions, but that they should reflect love for those in need of Christ and in need of perfecting their walk with Christ.

In other words, while many of us are certain that we have the right answer on these things, at some level it is not my job to purify the assembly, but rather to love everyone, both within and without it.

And while these are items of dispute from reading the same Bible, I have never had any "sense of the Spirit" concerning these kinds of issues. I have had a lot of mental thought on the subjects. And have current positions (mostly like the ones I have always had). But they are not really derived from some sense of the leading of the Spirit. Or even a "sense of life."

The leading of the Spirit with respect to any of these issues seems to lead me more in terms of how I deal with the people who are on either side of the debate. Or on neither side because they aren't Christian and don't think about it. That is where I find leading. I am convicted of my callousness toward the gay guy in the office. Or the unmarried woman (divorced with 2 kids) who is living with her boyfriend. Or the guy who just pulled out of the side street into the only lane with any traffic in it (right in front of me). Or the Pakistani who owns and operates the deli downstairs and has no pork of any kind on the menu (hint, hint. probably Moslem). And so on.

There really isn't much real interpretation issue when it comes to these things. I don't need to stand firm for the "right position on [x]" to have interactions with people with differing opinions on the same issue(s) and therefore have a requirement to treat them as I would have them treat me.

I am not saying that doctrinal positions on both theological and moral positions is not important. But I am not sure that it should be what we spend much of our time studying about, praying about, and even seeking the guidance of the Spirit. Surely I believe that it is important that some do that for the sake of the rest of us. And I do hope that we are astute enough to decide between competing thoughts on each subject. But those should not be the primary reason that we study, pray, and live. And they should not be the main things in which we seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

These may be more worthy than debates about angels and pin heads (pin-heads??) but they are not the things that we were charged concerning in places like the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus did not say to hold to the best position on the sins of others, but to seek righteousness and to apply it to yourself more stringently than even the 10 commandments demanded. So where does the Spirit begin speaking to us when we find ourselves having too many non-work-related conversations with that guy/gal in the office? Where is the line between making legitimate friendships and becoming attracted in an improper way (even if nothing ever comes close to "happening")?

Have a good position on those moral issues. And apply them to ourselves thoroughly. But be merciful with respect to others. Not just those who toe your/my moral stances. I think the Spirit speaks here much more often than on what specific nuance of the range of positions on abortion, LGBT, divorce, or even suing other Christians we should hold. More likely on how we think about followers of Mohammed. How we refer to them. What derogatory monikers we use for them. Same for our attitudes toward all kinds of Christian and non-Christian sinners.

I am not denying enlightenment with respect to the reading of scripture on other issues. But when we are talking about the issues you raise, the clearer answers are found when we block out our knee-jerk reactions and start the inquiry as freshly as possible. There is a lot of mental work to be done on these. But even when we think we have an answer, there is also the consideration on how to apply it. To ourselves. To others.

The kind of "sense of the Spirit" that is mostly mentioned is almost always concerning life and living. It is seldom about doctrinal inquiry. That does not mean there is no sense of the Spirit in those things. But I note that when such things were brought to the church in Jerusalem, a number of people spoke from different angles. And then the took time to consider and pray. And from that, it "seemed good" to the group and to the Holy Spirit (assuming that the attribution is appropriate — and I do) concerning the answer. And that answer still took stances that were not necessarily going to stand forever as stated. Yet it seemed good.

The thing to me here is that when it came to external points of teaching, it was not a matter of one person's "sense of the Spirit" on the matter. It was a combination of what was sensed by many persons. And I suspect that each would have generated a slightly different edict if it had been up to them. Yet when they, as a group, were finished, they could all say that it "seemed good." In today's terminology, I think what they said was "we can live with that."

As for gay marriage, it is a fact legally. In many ways there is a lot about it that the church has nothing to say about. But in terms of what it means spiritually, there is much to say. But it should be more about the church saying it than just me. So there needs to be a group that takes the nuances of the whole issue and comes to a "it seems good to us" position. I can live with that. It is not my decision to make. Not shirking my responsibility. Just stating it in the way I think is appropriate.

And in all of this, I have no problem with your position on any of these issues, or on whether a "sense of the Spirit" on them is important to the individual Christian or should be what is keeping them up at night. I just may think about it differently.

[Cal]

I understand your point, but my point was that without the Holy Spirit we can be all over the map about even "life and living" instructions from the Bible. I agree that we should view both the Bible and the Spirit's leading as instructions to each of us personally, and not look to be meddling in the lives of others.

At the same time some are called to teach to others. Without some personal leading from the Holy Spirit (which may be termed a "sense of the Spirit") the Bible is a dangerous book to wield, whether seeking clarity on doctrine or personal living.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

But I'm with you to say that those in the LCM often don't know the sense of life from indigestion, which may explain why Ron Kangas, Minoru Chen and the rest always look so dyspeptic when then are "sharing."

I don't know what to make of it.
Maybe they don't believe the LSM hype they're selling?
Maybe they know speaking at all those conferences is just for a paycheck?
Maybe they just need to drink more coffee?
Maybe those unlawful users of the internet has them figured out?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

At the same time some are called to teach to others. . . .

And I think that in that on short sentence it is summed up pretty well. If the problem is about what is the right thing to teach, then most of us really don't have that much problem. I do hope that the ones' whose calling is to teach get the help they need, whether from schooling, experience, a mentor, or the independent leading of the Holy Spirit. (And the Holy Spirit is presumed to be behind all of the other sources.)

As for what is the right way to live, it seems that there is less directly written on the specifics and therefore the need for some consideration beyond some kind of "it is written" analysis. And that is where most of us really need leading. Whether from some kind of sense, or from others who have gone before. Of course, a good framework or yardstick is always helpful. But it doesn't cover everything.

WWJD

In voting in the 2016 election. (There's good one. The possibilities are endless.)
In his manner of discussion of LGBT issues, including marriage, in the public arena (not in the church — though there is debate on even that).
On immigration policy.
On attitude toward Moslems in general. Or as neighbors living and working in my neighborhood. Or as potential immigrants to my country.
On a rational solution to guns.
On the idea that the basic U.S. constitution is a fixed document with clear meaning that cannot be questioned or altered.
That having the "when they pry it from my cold dead hands" position actually represents Christ.
On whether the church should encourage publicans and sinners to come and see. (And in this is part of the debate on whether the meeting of the church is for the body or for evangelism. I lean toward the former but with understanding that it is not exclusive and that evangelism should never be MIA.)

Maybe we need some leading from the Spirit in these matters. A leading that will turn us to consider the basic "rules" in the Bible that might expand to answer these questions. An "aha" in every one of them.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

As for what is the right way to live, it seems that there is less directly written on the specifics and therefore the need for some consideration beyond some kind of "it is written" analysis. And that is where most of us really need leading. Whether from some kind of sense, or from others who have gone before. Of course, a good framework or yardstick is always helpful. But it doesn't cover everything.

WWJD

For me the answer, if there is one, has been to try to do everything out of love. Love means seeking the genuine good of others even if doing so requires sacrifice on our part. When considering these issues the Bible isn't clear about and even in attempting to apply the ones it is clear about, I am learning to ask myself "Is love my motive?" and to not be satisfied until the answer is yes.

Love is the ultimate fine tuner both of what we do and how we do it.

I'm thinking of Brother Lawrence and how his goal in life was to do everything for the love of God. He was nobody, just another obscure monk in a monastery. Yet five hundred years later he is still remembered. That tells me something.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

For me the answer, if there is one, has been to try to do everything out of love. Love means seeking the genuine good of others even if doing so requires sacrifice on our part. When considering these issues the Bible isn't clear about and even in attempting to apply the ones it is clear about, I am learning to ask myself "Is love my motive?" and to not be satisfied until the answer is yes.

Love is the ultimate fine tuner both of what we do and how we do it.

I'm thinking of Brother Lawrence and how his goal in life was to do everything for the love of God. He was nobody, just another obscure monk in a monastery. Yet five hundred years later he is still remembered. That tells me something.

In the Word, the Bible is clear that love is balanced with truth. Does genuine love exist apart from truth? The verses below indicate that truth and love go hand in hand. Love, apart from truth is unbalanced. Truth (applied), apart from love is unbalanced. Zech. 8:19 even says "love the truth".

IMHO truth is absolute. Love isn't. We need both truth and love, together, in every situation. Our motive can be truth and love.

Isaiah 61:8 For I the Lord love judgment, ... and I will direct their work in truth, ... .
Zechariah 8:19 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; ... therefore love the truth and peace.
Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
3 John 1:1 The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

In the Word, the Bible is clear that love is balanced with truth. Does genuine love exist apart from truth? The verses below indicate that truth and love go hand in hand. Love, apart from truth is unbalanced. Truth (applied), apart from love is unbalanced. Zech. 8:19 even says "love the truth".

IMHO truth is absolute. Love isn't. We need both truth and love, together, in every situation. Our motive can be truth and love.

Let me throw out some ideas.

Truth without love quickly deteriorates into dead doctrine. Does genuine truth exist without love? Truth may be absolute, but real love is unconditional and eternal. All things may pass away, but love never fails.

Remember that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Truth is thus more elusive, since it can disguise itself as knowledge, teachings, doctrines, and worse -- laws, ordinances, and even practices.

Jesus said the truth sets us free, so if there is no genuine liberty in the Spirit, then it cannot be the truth. If the word is what God has spoken, then the truth is what orders our walk with Him.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't know what to make of it.
Maybe they don't believe the LSM hype they're selling?
Maybe they know speaking at all those conferences is just for a paycheck?
Maybe they just need to drink more coffee?
Maybe those unlawful users of the internet has them figured out?

I was talking to one of my sons this week and told him that "Christ is life, but life is not Christ" because there are many types of life; plant, animal, human, demonic, angelic, and divine. When a blended brother says he is following "life" which life is he talking about? To follow Christ is to follow His word, to follow the sense of life could mean following any number of types of life. Some of the elders and blendeds don't know the difference between their own human life and feelings and the divine life of Christ.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

For me the answer, if there is one, has been to try to do everything out of love. Love means seeking the genuine good of others even if doing so requires sacrifice on our part. When considering these issues the Bible isn't clear about and even in attempting to apply the ones it is clear about, I am learning to ask myself "Is love my motive?" and to not be satisfied until the answer is yes.

First, not dismissing the rest of your post. Just concentrating here.

I agree with you. But when I hear the word "love" spoken in terms of the errant ones of society, it is typically associated with the word "tough" or is immediately followed by "of a father disciplining his child."

I agree with your definitions. But there appear to be a lot that don't. And reading the Bible doesn't seem to be setting them straight. When we have marches and counter-marches to speak out against "gay rights" or gay marriage, it is so often the very thing that chases love from the scene. I have no special concern for this particular issue other than to say that it is a perfect example of how we aren't really reading the Bible, and if we (globally, not meaning you or me necessarily) think that the Spirit is leading us in that manner, then we have a problem with understanding the leading of the Spirit.

I don't think it really matters if we do or don't have some kind of leading related to pre or post tribulation rapture (or even a propensity toward something called rapture). But it really matters how we live. And we are looking for feelings to lead us. And if we are predisposed to think of things in certain ways, there is at least one part of us that will feel "good" about things that are not really righteous.

I know that I just defined a problem since I have stated that too many can't figure it out from the Bible and at the same time it is potentially questionable whether what we think as the Spirit's leading really is. What I have found is that allowing myself to be challenged in terms of what I currently think is the "right" way pays off. Not just to follow the latest trend in misinformation. But to honestly consider alternate ways of thinking without either dumping my old ways or allowing them to dismiss the new thought out of hand.

I now find myself believing that one of the more important things about the Christian life is "doing" in this life rather than "gaining" in the next. Not denying that there is something to gain. But realizing that the gain comes because of what happens in this life.

And it has me in a pickle because what I now think is very important is not yet fully part of what I practice. So my belief is only partial. It is head knowledge without practice. Orthodoxy without orthopraxy.

But you are right. If I can properly assess love, then I can use that as a yardstick for most of my living. Was that action (on the road, at home, in the store, etc.) loving? Better than WWJD. Since he is God and has a right to judgment, he might do something that I was not given the authority for. I have been given a charge. And you are right to distill it down to love.

Jesus did.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

. . . to follow the sense of life could mean following any number of types of life. . . .

Such as the life of the spicy taco I ate an hour ago.

[HERn]

"The bread that you store up belongs to the hungry; the coat that lies in your chest belongs to the naked; the gold that you have hidden in the ground belongs to the poor."

Sometimes it's difficult for me to know how to respond to Christian hyperbole like the above current quote. The implied teaching of generosity is a greatly needed virtue that I think my Lord would for like me to practice. But, after reading the above I could become "absolute" and decide not to have any cans of soup or other food in the pantry, clothes hanging in the closet or savings in the bank. I'm ok with Christ's and the apostles' hyperbole, but I'm learning to throw out the hyperbole of men.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

"The bread that you store up belongs to the hungry; the coat that lies in your chest belongs to the naked; the gold that you have hidden in the ground belongs to the poor."

Sometimes it's difficult for me to know how to respond to Christian hyperbole like the above current quote. The implied teaching of generosity is a greatly needed virtue that I think my Lord would for like me to practice.

Just the other day I confronted this same matter. Once again, the neighbors asked to borrow some tools. I have already decided not to lone them any more, since I have lost so many already. My wife says, "I just read that verse this morning about your neighbor asking for a shirt, give them your jacket too." So I said to my dear wife, "they can have the shirt off my back, but no more tools." Another different Christian neighbor learned of it and said, "read Proverbs about discernment."

Such is every verse. It needs the anointing of the Spirit to teach us. It needs other scripture for proper interpretation. I have loaned out hundreds of tools to various people, but there is a time when I must be prudent and exercise discernment.

Couple days after the neighbor's boyfriend asked for my tools, he and her broke up, then he cut her pipes, and flooded her house. What a mess! I would never have had my tools returned. Oh it's easy to use verses on one another, but Dear ... "if they asked you, would you loan out your beloved Pampered Chef cooking utensils?"

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm ok with Christ's and the apostles' hyperbole, but I'm learning to throw out the hyperbole of men.

Totally agreed on this! But keep in mind, this same thing goes for ANYTHING I put in the quotes and quips module. Unless you know of the "One Quoter with the One Quoting Ministry for the age," then they are all to be taken with a grain of salt the size of a mack truck.

Bottom line is: I put up about 300 or so quotes a year. There is bound to be a stinker or two..or three or....The good news it will be replaced at some point tomorrow morning, and brother Basil will be out of our hair.


-

[HERn]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Totally agreed on this! But keep in mind, this same thing goes for ANYTHING I put in the quotes and quips module. Unless you know of the "One Quoter with the One Quoting Ministry for the age," then they are all to be taken with a grain of salt the size of a mack truck.

Bottom line is: I put up about 300 or so quotes a year. There is bound to be a stinker or two..or three or....The good news it will be replaced at some point tomorrow morning, and brother Basil will be out of our hair.


-

Not a problem. I benefited from the reminder to be generous. Keep it coming, I respect the church fathers and as a Protestant I can "take them or leave them" without much concern. At a combined board meeting last month I mentioned mentioned that giving is a Christian discipline like prayer and meditation on the word and that new Christians should be taught to give. Well, the Assistant Pastor recently asked if my wife and I would give a testimony in the missional moment of a service on giving and generosity. We are really not very sacrificial, I think we are only recently giving 10% of our gross, for a long time it was only 10% of our net. Everyone is at a differen place and with a different amount of faith. I remember in a sermon that RK said they were giving more than 20% and that he tried to increase it every year.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I remember in a sermon that RK said they were giving more than 20% and that he tried to increase it every year.

I never agreed with the fairness of 10%, especially when a minister can set his own salary. For a successful businessman to give 10% is nothing compared with those struggling to make ends meet.

[HERn]

This was a pretty good article on biblical hyperbole.

http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAL014.pdf

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

To follow Christ is to follow His word, to follow the sense of life could mean following any number of types of life. Some of the elders and blendeds don't know the difference between their own human life and feelings and the divine life of Christ.

After years of being out of TLR and meeting only when visiting my parents, I've reached the point "how much to throw out" begins with the publications. They have got to go.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

After years of being out of TLR and meeting only when visiting my parents, I've reached the point "how much to throw out" begins with the publications. They have got to go.

I still have a box of RcV NT with footnotes. Do u think I should throw them away, give to habitat for humanity, or to a LC Saint?

Originally Posted by HERn

I would like to hear from our dear recovery bothers and sisters why they think WL was the minister of the age, apostle, oracle of God, etc.

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

[UntoHim]

Thanks for checking in Unregistered Guest.

Just a few comments from me.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

- The experiences of life were richer

Richer than what? No need to name names or individual ministers or churches, but I think I'm going to pin you down a bit on this one. Witness Lee claimed to have searched the entire earth and (since 1945) couldn't find anyone else who spoke as God's oracle. Are you as world traveled as Lee, and thus qualified make such a bold proclamation? So Lee's ministry was richer than what?

- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together

Again, deeper than what? What made Witness Lee so qualified to "collectively fit together" "the truths in the bible" to such a degree as to be considered as more authoritative and/or enlightening then any of his contemporaries? It certainly wasn't his formal education - He had none. It certainly wasn't his grasp of the deeper meaning of words and phrases in the original languages - He was decidedly ignorant of Hebrew and Koine Greek. It wasn't his garnering of a wide range of knowledge and experience of other Christian teachers, ministers, scholars and apologists - he refused to fellowship with anyone outside of the exclusive sect that he created and tightly controlled.

- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Now on this one the Local Church has far exceeded the efforts of the vast majority of other Christian denominations, ministries or services. They have MUCH to contribute to the Body of Christ in the matter of hospitality and service within the local church. It's just too bad that the other stuff (mentioned above) keeps them separated from their other brothers and sisters in Christ, who in turn have MUCH to contribute to their brothers and sisters in the Local Church. ***This is one reason why this forum was initiated and is now maintained on the Internet***

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

1 Corinthians 9:2
If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

I don't think anyone has ever had a problem with Witness Lee being considered as an apostle to his own followers (although he vehemently denied he held any such office or title), but many, including many of us who sat under his ministry for decades, do have a big problem with Lee being considered "the one apostle with the one ministry for the age", "the one oracle on earth", "the one master builder", etc. We have seen, heard and experienced too much over the past 40-50 years to just let this kind of understanding of this man go unchallenged. ***And yes, for better or for worse, this is another reason this forum was initiated and maintained on the Internet***
-

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

You can't say the experiences of life were richer unless you've experienced every other alternative.

"Deeper," eh? And what does that buy you? If it doesn't buy you a closer relationship with God then it's worthless, and I have seen little evidence that it does. In fact, I would say many of Lee's teachings hinder a relationship with God.

As for "fitting together," this was a fetish of Lee's and was often forced, leading to misplace priorities. His "local ground" teaching is a classic example.

The relationships in the LCM are fine. But they are diminished by the fact that LCMers have very little relationship with those outside the movement. This is lead's me to believe the internal LCM relationships are based more on common culture than a common relationship with God.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

If that's all it takes to be the minister of the age it's kind of a low bar. Seems like depending upon the person there could be many bible teachers who could qualify. What makes WL unique? Also, it seems kind of subjective. The same could be said of many men or women that people decide to follow.

[SteVee]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

Thoughts from an outsider:

Love Christ Himself - through lovingly speaking directly to Him and obeying His revealed will in the Bible, believers in Christ and all men as Christ Himself would. (Deu 6:5, Matt 22:38,39, Mark 12:31)

Keep the Bible - 66 books in the English versions. The NKJV and the NASB are useful versions. The Blue Letter Bible is a good free tool for iOS and android with MANY translations. 2 Tim 3:16,17

Keep the Lord's Supper (1 Cor 11:23-26)

Keep preaching the Gospel (Matt 28:19-20)

Keep immersing new believers

Keep making disciples (translation: be a friend to those who love Christ, and share Christ with them through His Word, helping them to grow.)

To help deprogram yourself, read a couple of hermeneutics books. (Hermeneutics are principles of interpretation. MOST of Biblical hermeneutics is general and would apply to secular literature as well. Special hermeneutics applies to prophecy.). One that is simple enough for most, but technical enough to be useful is How to Read the Bible for all it's Worth by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart. It won't "convert" you to any denomination. It is pretty generic in most regards. It should make you humble enough to see that everyone is at least a little inconsistent in how they interpret the Bible. You can find used copies on Amazon.

Recognize that in Christendom there is pop-literature (candy), general commentaries which tell you what someone thinks a passage means, (junk-food), technical commentaries which tell you what words mean and look carefully at history and context (food), and reference material such as atlases, Bible dictionaries, Bible encyclopedias, lexicons, concordances in English, Hebrew and Greek, books on hermeneutics, and very meaty books that exhaustively analyze one particular doctrine (meat) and so forth. These can help you carefully determine the details of a passage of Scripture so that you can accurately determine its intended meaning to the original hearers, and then faithfully apply it to yourself today. You can know with certainty what most of the Scripture meant to the people it was originally written to, and by extension what still applies to you today explicitly (You shall not murder = you shall not murder duh!!) or what applies in principle (you shall not muzzle an ox while it treads the grain = a worker is worthy of his wages 1 Corinthians 9:9; 1 Timothy 5:18)

IMHO - anyone leaving their spiritual roots, no matter how troublesome needs to apply 2 Timothy 2:15 more than most, "15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.". It was written to a missionary church planter who was called to lead, but it is no less applicable to those who hear the Word (like the Bereans, who tested Paul's teachings against the Scrpture to see if what he taught was true.). Acts 17:10-12

--------------

In the last 24 hours I have read most of the 800+ posts of this thread. I am an outsider to the LC. My first exposure was when I attended a meeting in the Old Town part of Tacoma, Washington in the mid eighties. A month ago, I started having lunch with a member of the LC here in town and have been trying to understand the LC. Reading this thread from end to end has given me a lot of caution.

In contrast to all of you who are disillusioned with the LC, I am disillusioned with Christendom. Most of what calls itself the "church" is repackaged Catholicism (with a Pre-eminent Professional Pastor instead of a Catholic Priest).

None of it is simplicity we see in the New Testament. It is a like a show where we come in and watch a few others stand in front of us and perform. It isn't each member doing his or her part. Everything I've read here about the LC being a means to fund Living Stream's publishing business is everything I don't like about the "Church of Christ", Baptists (affiliated and independent), Presbyterians, Lutheran, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, "non-denominational" churches etc ... The money may go to a local staff and to a mortgage on a building, instead of a publishing house, but it is still a career to most of them. Modern churches all have the same format with a slightly different spin; none of which represents the simplicity and purity of the New Testament church.

What has got me to look at the LC is the ideas (though from this thread, it doesn't sound like the LC really practices it) of a weekly Lord's Supper where all partake, all contribute a hymn, a prayer, an insight from their personal study of the Word.

"How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." 1 Co 14:26

I attended a Plymouth Brethren (open brethren) congregation many years ago. The Lord's Supper was church. Over the years, they went the way of the rest of Protestantism with a pre-eminent elder that was paid and a paid staff and ... You get the idea.

I believe that Christ's church is so much less than what is currently called church, and as such is really so much more. Much less works, plans, business and entertainment of man and much more of Christ in you sharing with Christ in me (true fellowship), and Christ expressing Himself to us through us. It is like a fragile plant to be nurtured rather than an activity to be planned, scheduled and orchestrated. You cannot make things grow, you can only provide healthy conditions for growth.

Did any of the early congregations of the LC (pre-1974) successfully continue apart from WL and Living Stream? I would really like to get together with fellow believers that are willing to drop tradition and not add to what is revealed in the Scripture.

Well this is a long first post. Thanks in advance for any responses.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by SteVee

Thoughts from an outsider:

Love Christ Himself - through lovingly speaking directly to Him and obeying His revealed will in the Bible, believers in Christ and all men as Christ Himself would. (Deu 6:5, Matt 22:38,39, Mark 12:31)

Keep the Bible - 66 books in the English versions. The NKJV and the NASB are useful versions. The Blue Letter Bible is a good free tool for iOS and android with MANY translations. 2 Tim 3:16,17

Keep the Lord's Supper (1 Cor 11:23-26)

Keep preaching the Gospel (Matt 28:19-20)

Keep immersing new believers

Keep making disciples (translation: be a friend to those who love Christ, and share Christ with them through His Word, helping them to grow.)

To help deprogram yourself, read a couple of hermeneutics books. (Hermeneutics are principles of interpretation. MOST of Biblical hermeneutics is general and would apply to secular literature as well. Special hermeneutics applies to prophecy.). One that is simple enough for most, but technical enough to be useful is How to Read the Bible for all it's Worth by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart. It won't "convert" you to any denomination. It is pretty generic in most regards. It should make you humble enough to see that everyone is at least a little inconsistent in how they interpret the Bible. You can find used copies on Amazon.

Recognize that in Christendom there is pop-literature (candy), general commentaries which tell you what someone thinks a passage means, (junk-food), technical commentaries which tell you what words mean and look carefully at history and context (food), and reference material such as atlases, Bible dictionaries, Bible encyclopedias, lexicons, concordances in English, Hebrew and Greek, books on hermeneutics, and very meaty books that exhaustively analyze one particular doctrine (meat) and so forth. These can help you carefully determine the details of a passage of Scripture so that you can accurately determine its intended meaning to the original hearers, and then faithfully apply it to yourself today. You can know with certainty what most of the Scripture meant to the people it was originally written to, and by extension what still applies to you today explicitly (You shall not murder = you shall not murder duh!!) or what applies in principle (you shall not muzzle an ox while it treads the grain = a worker is worthy of his wages 1 Corinthians 9:9; 1 Timothy 5:18)

IMHO - anyone leaving their spiritual roots, no matter how troublesome needs to apply 2 Timothy 2:15 more than most, "15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.". It was written to a missionary church planter who was called to lead, but it is no less applicable to those who hear the Word (like the Bereans, who tested Paul's teachings against the Scrpture to see if what he taught was true.). Acts 17:10-12

--------------

In the last 24 hours I have read most of the 800+ posts of this thread. I am an outsider to the LC. My first exposure was when I attended a meeting in the Old Town part of Tacoma, Washington in the mid eighties. A month ago, I started having lunch with a member of the LC here in town and have been trying to understand the LC. Reading this thread from end to end has given me a lot of caution.

In contrast to all of you who are disillusioned with the LC, I am disillusioned with Christendom. Most of what calls itself the "church" is repackaged Catholicism (with a Pre-eminent Professional Pastor instead of a Catholic Priest).

None of it is simplicity we see in the New Testament. It is a like a show where we come in and watch a few others stand in front of us and perform. It isn't each member doing his or her part. Everything I've read here about the LC being a means to fund Living Stream's publishing business is everything I don't like about the "Church of Christ", Baptists (affiliated and independent), Presbyterians, Lutheran, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, "non-denominational" churches etc ... The money may go to a local staff and to a mortgage on a building, instead of a publishing house, but it is still a career to most of them. Modern churches all have the same format with a slightly different spin; none of which represents the simplicity and purity of the New Testament church.

What has got me to look at the LC is the ideas (though from this thread, it doesn't sound like the LC really practices it) of a weekly Lord's Supper where all partake, all contribute a hymn, a prayer, an insight from their personal study of the Word.

"How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." 1 Co 14:26

I attended a Plymouth Brethren (open brethren) congregation many years ago. The Lord's Supper was church. Over the years, they went the way of the rest of Protestantism with a pre-eminent elder that was paid and a paid staff and ... You get the idea.

I believe that Christ's church is so much less than what is currently called church, and as such is really so much more. Much less works, plans, business and entertainment of man and much more of Christ in you sharing with Christ in me (true fellowship), and Christ expressing Himself to us through us. It is like a fragile plant to be nurtured rather than an activity to be planned, scheduled and orchestrated. You cannot make things grow, you can only provide healthy conditions for growth.

Did any of the early congregations of the LC (pre-1974) successfully continue apart from WL and Living Stream? I would really like to get together with fellow believers that are willing to drop tradition and not add to what is revealed in the Scripture.

Well this is a long first post. Thanks in advance for any responses.

Thanks bro Stevee, that was really good! I'm ok with paid clergy. This morning the deacon board interviewed a candidate for assoc. pastor. He wants to serve the body of Christ as a pastor. In secular employment he could probably make twice the salary of an assoc. pastor. He has a masters degree and could probably make a lot of money in business. Paid clergy are almost 24/7 slaves to their congregation. They fellowship, counsel, preach, pray, and work to facilitate the functioning of the body. Just my two cents regarding where I am today.

[SteVee]

Originally Posted by HERn

Thanks bro Stevee, that was really good! I'm ok with paid clergy. This morning the deacon board interviewed a candidate for assoc. pastor. He wants to serve the body of Christ as a pastor. In secular employment he could probably make twice the salary of an assoc. pastor. He has a masters degree and could probably make a lot of money in business. Paid clergy are almost 24/7 slaves to their congregation. They fellowship, counsel, preach, pray, and work to facilitate the functioning of the body. Just my two cents regarding where I am today.

I respect people's service, and as I quoted, the Scripture says a worker is worthy of his wages. What I've observed is the drift from service to control to preeminence - like Ray Graver in the LC. Another issue is the strata it normally creates in the minds of immature saints. You have the ruling, administering class and the rest of us that pay, attend and help a little here and there. The different members of the body become weak and malformed. It doesn't have to be that way just because there is full time clergy, but that seems to be the Catholic/Protestant way.

Do you know of any group that is sticking to the early principles of the LC, where the Spirit worked in each one to serve?

By SteVee
"Did any of the early congregations of the LC (pre-1974) successfully continue apart from WL and Living Stream? "
Yes, there are. Even 'post 1988' there are congregations of LC.
Pray the Lord leads you, if it pleases him. Jesus is Lord.

By SteVee
"Do you know of any group that is sticking to the early principles of the LC, where the Spirit worked in each one to serve?"
If you search for 'group(s)' where the Spirit works in each one to serve, should not you be led by the Spirit working in you, so that you are also one of the them where the Spirit worked in?
God or gods, what choose ya?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SteVee

I respect people's service, and as I quoted, the Scripture says a worker is worthy of his wages. What I've observed is the drift from service to control to preeminence - like Ray Graver in the LC. Another issue is the strata it normally creates in the minds of immature saints. You have the ruling, administering class and the rest of us that pay, attend and help a little here and there. The different members of the body become weak and malformed. It doesn't have to be that way just because there is full time clergy, but that seems to be the Catholic/Protestant way.

Do you know of any group that is sticking to the early principles of the LC, where the Spirit worked in each one to serve?

Possibly Hope's congregation in NC. He left the LC in the mid 80's, but still adhered to the early pronciples.

If you are still in WA, posters Terry and Indiana are in metro Seattle.

Moses Lake left years ago, not sure how they are now.

Prior to 1974 there was a genuine move of the Spirit in the US. Much of what was happening in the LC's (i.e. the freshness, gospel vitality, all members operating in the meetings, etc.) was common to all of Christendom.

[SteVee]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Possibly Hope's congregation in NC. He left the LC in the mid 80's, but still adhered to the early pronciples.

If you are still in WA, posters Terry and Indiana are in metro Seattle.

Moses Lake left years ago, not sure how they are now.

Prior to 1974 there was a genuine move of the Spirit in the US. Much of what was happening in the LC's (i.e. the freshness, gospel vitality, all members operating in the meetings, etc.) was common to all of Christendom.

@Ohio
Thanks Ohio. I am in Alabama now. Do you know how I could contact Hope's congregation? I would like to visit.

@unregistered
Yes, the Holy Spirit definitely leads, but that doesn't take away from people deliberately discussing doctrine and making conscious choices. Right now, with a copy of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" in my hand, the Holy Spirit is cautioning me to make sure I am following Him, as revealed in His Word, with likeminded believers who are walking in purity, not a man or an organization that exists for financial gain and personal esteem. I realize there are many who are probably sincere and devout in individual congregations of the LC, but it seems clear that the LC is centrally controlled, as opposed to locally led by elders. That in and of itself is a sinful departure from the NT. Even the apostles in Jerusalem gave guidance to resolve confusion, but didn't remotely control the elders of local congregations. Ac 15:23-29

Thank you SteVee for your words and your discernment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SteVee

@Ohio
Thanks Ohio. I am in Alabama now. Do you know how I could contact Hope's congregation? I would like to visit.

@unregistered
Yes, the Holy Spirit definitely leads, but that doesn't take away from people deliberately discussing doctrine and making conscious choices. Right now, with a copy of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" in my hand, the Holy Spirit is cautioning me to make sure I am following Him, as revealed in His Word, with likeminded believers who are walking in purity, not a man or an organization that exists for financial gain and personal esteem. I realize there are many who are probably sincere and devout in individual congregations of the LC, but it seems clear that the LC is centrally controlled, as opposed to locally led by elders. That in and of itself is a sinful departure from the NT. Even the apostles in Jerusalem gave guidance to resolve confusion, but didn't remotely control the elders of local congregations. Ac 15:23-29

Sorry ... I have not visited them ... And Hope has not posted for awhile.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

The "go in peace" here reminds me of "be warmed and filled" of James 2:14: both phrases seem benign and innocuous, yet they conceal a spiritual virus. Initially the Local Church spread through the USA, based on the idea that all Christians were one, in the same faith, same Spirit, same Christ and Lord, same God and Father. Therefore all Christians in any "locality" or geographical area could stand together as the one church, fellowship, assembly, or testimony.

But this "one church" was a trojan horse for the "one ministry of the age", and all who couldn't "get in line", as Witness Lee's predecessor Watchman Nee had made it clear a half-century before, were shed from the system. "Go in peace." Or as some put it, "The Recovery is not for everyone". Wait - I thought the central premise that it WAS for everyone? Oh, the old Bait and Switch.

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, including 9:2, where does he claim the one ministry of the age? He says he is "an" apostle, not "the" apostle. In fact he derides the supposedly super-apostles. Surely such ones will rise up, and lead many astray. And surely the Body should identify them for what they are.

In the Local Church, many gave years and even decades to build up the church but were eventually given two options: Either you're with us and our abject subjection to centralized leadership, or you're out. Go in peace, i.e. go away quietly. Thanks for all your help, now beat it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry ... I have not visited them ... And Hope has not posted for awhile.

Originally Posted by Don Rutledge

I myself was labeled and excluded from the fellowship of the churches, not for what I had said or done but because I would not promote the LSM, Philip Lee, the “New Way” and those who were carrying out all the decrees of “the Office.” Nor would I join in to denounce brothers who had expressed concerns. It was not enough to be quiet and take the cross. Promote, join the program denounce or you are persona non grata. . . During my time of association with Brother Lee etc., I saw many fleshly rebellious people defame him and the churches. This kind of activity is to be condemned. During the 80s there were some who sought opportunity to defame and slander.

They're easy to discern. They always speak of personal offenses and never express regards for the Truth, the Lord or the Lord’s work. But brothers like John Ingalls and Bill Mallon etc. only expressed concern for the saints, the churches, and the truth and for Brother Lee himself and his ministry. They sought out Brother Lee over and over again to express their concerns. But the very ones who are now attacking you [GLA] brothers had successfully insulated Brother Lee physically and mentally. My experience was when you were able to speak with Brother Lee, he had already been poisoned by the LSM cadre. Yes, even our dear brother could be influenced by rumor and innuendo, but we all are human and he was no less a servant of the Lord because he may have been so.

I understand the LSM cadre likes to relate anecdotes of private talks with Brother Lee. I will also relate one experience. I would say that Brother Lee and I were not only brothers but had a very sweet relationship. I considered him to be my older friend as well as spiritual Father and I believe he considered me as a young friend. In 1976, in Dallas, shortly after the failure of the Day Star business, he was speaking to me of his relationship with Brother Nee. He said that he would have been severely rebuked by Brother Nee because Brother Nee had repeatedly warned them not to mix the church in a business. We were standing by one another. Then he put his arm around by shoulder. (I never before or after saw him embrace someone) He told me in the most sober voice, “Brother Don, I told Brother Nee that ‘if he left the vision he had given me that I would no longer follow him. Rather, I am following the vision he gave.’ Brother Don, if I leave the vision please do not follow me.” I assured him that I was following the vision.

In 1989 a paper was published and sent out by Living Stream that was an attempt to refute a message given by John Ingalls to the church in Anaheim. There were five serious violations of the truth and the vision I had been following. The headship of Christ, the Bible as the final authority of truth, hierarchy, the local standing of the church and the anointing of the spirit in every believer were all torn down. I was heart broken. Not bitter or negative. I did call Don Looper and Titus and tell them of my great consternation. Neither could agree with the paper but felt to ride out the storm.

I then met with some brothers, who had moved to Carolina from California, with whom I had been attempting to meet. They informed me that they were “turning me in” to the LSM and to Brother Lee for the failure to support the “new way” and that they had six phrases I had uttered over a two-year period that showed I was not one with the ministry. (They could not even come up with a complete sentence.) They also informed me that the oneness of the Body was the oneness with “the Apostle,” and that they expected everyone here to come into that standard of oneness. In addition, even though I did not say anything dissenting,my presence and my wife’s presence in the meetings ruined the meetings.

Brother Don Rutledge, aka Hope on this forum, was heavily involved in the LC movement for decades when it began in the USA. Today lives and meets in Raleigh NC. My impression of his fellowship there is that they receive all Christians, not just those promoting a certain ministry, and they respect all the gifts of the Body and not just one Deputy God Super Apostle, and they care for the lost sheep and not just gathering "good material" i.e. gullible college students.

If you PM him on this forum he may respond.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The "go in peace" here reminds me of "be warmed and filled" of James 2:14: both phrases seem benign and innocuous, yet they conceal a spiritual virus..

I had to chuckle at this one, but pointed indeed. (Btw, James 2.16)

Originally Posted by aron

But this "one church" was a trojan horse for the "one ministry of the age."

Say it isn't so!

How unfortunate that the repeated facts of history support this!

Originally Posted by aron

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, including 9:2, where does he claim the one ministry of the age? He says he is "an" apostle, not "the" apostle. In fact he derides the supposedly super-apostles.

Excellent points, which none of us loyal to the movement ever considered.

Originally Posted by aron

In the Local Church, many gave years and even decades to build up the church but were eventually given two options: Either you're with us and our abject subjection to centralized leadership, or you're out. Go in peace, i.e. go away quietly. Thanks for all your help, now beat it.

This was exactly my case in 2005. I had given 30 of my best years to the Recovery, thru good times and bad, and two migrations. But we were all given the choice to "stand for the truth" with the Blendeds, or "stand for the truth" with Titus Chu.

Some were then more upset with me for posting on the forum than for leaving. For years we were instructed, "if you leave, leave as a gentleman," which means keep your mouth shut and disappear. I decided to "stand for the truth" and report to others how we had gone off course, like the exclusive Brethren before us.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This was exactly my case in 2005. I had given 30 of my best years to the Recovery, thru good times and bad, and two migrations. But we were all given the choice to "stand for the truth" with the Blendeds, or "stand for the truth" with Titus Chu.

Some were then more upset with me for posting on the forum than for leaving. For years we were instructed, "if you leave, leave as a gentleman," which means keep your mouth shut and disappear. I decided to "stand for the truth" and report to others how we had gone off course, like the exclusive Brethren before us.

I'm so sorry this had to happen. It sounds like the end of a bad marriage. "Leave as a gentleman" is manipulative, as if on some level, they knew there was a lot to hide.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Renee

I'm so sorry this had to happen. It sounds like the end of a bad marriage. "Leave as a gentleman" is manipulative, as if on some level, they knew there was a lot to hide.

Manipulation in the LC was so rampant and accepted, that even the more kind-hearted brothers would repeat what was inflicted on them without their even noticing it.

Untohim,

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically. The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

[UntoHim]

Unregistered Guest,

Thanks for your heartfelt and lucid response.

Firstly, let me say that I have been where you're at. I have been in your shoes. I once felt the same way about Lee and Nee. I still do honor their service to the Lord and his Gospel. They are now both with the Lord, and their ultimate honor, glory and reward is in the hands of the One they attempted to serve.

I noticed you use the terms "experiences", "more real" greatly enhanced" when speaking of the ministries of Lee and Nee. These are all subjective things which can be highly influenced by our un-renewed minds and our fickle heart and emotions. Thankfully, God has provided us with at least two checks and balances for our spiritual well-being, and for the safety and admonition of the Body of Christ.

The first check and balance is, of course, the Holy Scriptures. Every experience, or even understanding, we have, no matter how "real" or "enhanced", MUST be compared and contrasted with what is plainly set before us in the Word of God. There is an abject danger we all face when any teaching or practice becomes untethered from the black and white holy writ of the Bible, and from "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints". (Jude 1:3) There is little doubt that Witness Lee felt he was qualified to establish teachings and practices which were, at best, untethered from the clear teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the writings of the apostles, and at worse were patently unbiblical, and arguably heretical. This forum is replete with innumerable examples which run from the "at best" all the way to the "at worse".

The second check and balance was clearly enunciated by Igzy:

Originally Posted by Igzy

The relationships in the LCM are fine. But they are diminished by the fact that LCMers have very little relationship with those outside the movement. This is lead's me to believe the internal LCM relationships are based more on common culture than a common relationship with God.

I must say that Igzy was being quite generous with his "very little relationship with those outside the movement". Actually, "very little" would be a good start and vast improvement. In all fairness, at least Local Church members are no longer marching outside of Moody Bible Institute shouting "down with Christianity!" and other such outlandish slogans. I haven't heard of any lawsuit being filed (against Christians outside or inside of the movement) in quite some years. Hope springs eternal!

Seriously though, Iqzy says just about all that I would want to say regarding this matter of being balanced by the Body of Christ. What Local Churchers don't understand, much less appreciate, is that we all don't have to agree on every teaching and practice to have a relationship with other members of the Body, with other churches, church groups or ministries.

There is a song sung in the Local Church, probably written by, or at least influenced by, the teachings of Witness Lee, which opens with this:
Oh, the church of Christ is glorious, and we are part of it—
We’re so happy that the Lord has made us one!
There’s a Body in the universe and we belong to it—
Hallelujah, for the Lord has made us one!

Yes, my dear Local Church brothers and sisters, the Lord has made us one! So why do you continue to resist and even fight against what the Lord has done? Yes, the Body of Christ is divided...but only by those who would do the dividing. Frankly, many of the teachings and practices of the Local Church are part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. But brothers and sisters like our friend, Unregistered Guest, can be part of the solution, at least here on this forum. And this is one of the main reasons this little popcorn stand will remain open and available for the foreseeable future.

-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically.

The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

I agree that the ministry of Nee and Lee presents and understands the Old and New Testaments holistically, and that this can be amenable to the seeking person. I was also encouraged and supplied by the "one stop shopping" of the ministry. All problems of life could usually be reduced to "eating Jesus is the way" and "glorious church life, feasting in one accord" etc etc. Just sing the chorus 20 times and you're all set. In the heavenlies - no problems.

The entire ministry, which spans the entire Bible, can be summed up in a catchphrase that even the weakest and dullest among us could declare in a Tuesday night home meeting, or Saturday morning Bible study meeting. And if you came in and declared the catchphrase, all those smiling faces would beam back at you - "love bombing" and warm fuzzies all around.

My first indication that something was amiss was when the FTTA trainers told us, "Don't waste your time" with the poor, the aged, the weak and the sick, in other words don't spend any time or effort or attention to those who can't repay you in this age. Instead, go after the good building materials, which was explicitly spelled out - Caucasian college students. That was the prize, of the high calling of Christ Jesus, to come into the LC and go onto the college campus, and snare a Caucasian student for the building up of the Body of Christ and the Consummation of the New Jerusalem.

Etc. More and more I began to see disconnect between the holistic world of Lee, and the world of the Bible, of common sense, of Christian experience and testimony (our supposed "goodly heritage"), and our own still small voice i.e. our conscience. Just go with the flow, keep your mouth shut except to say, "Amen, praise the Lord!" Leadership is always right even when its wrong. As RG put it so succinctly, "We do what we are told". That's the holistic world of Lee, reduced to its primal essence.

On the other hand, I don't hold it against those who stay on the space ship. I'm qualified to judge no one. Some may feel, Hey, this is the best I can do, and decide to stay put. Others, however, feel, Hey, I can do better than this, and move on. Certainly I was in the latter camp.

Today sometimes I struggle with the scholars who lose sight of the forest for the trees. They can parse out one clause from Greek or Hebrew, but eventually you feel it has nothing to do with the larger narrative. I do appreciate Lee and Nee for continually trying to bring it all back full circle; I was probably helped and influenced by their work, in this regard.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Untohim,

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically. The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

It is good that you experienced Christ, but you must realize that countless others have experienced Christ in the RCC, EOC, and several Protestant groups. What makes your experience more valid than the others?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Untohim,

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically. The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

Hi,

I'm not sure why you address me directly here, but I assume it is because of what I said about the commonality of LCMers being their culture, rather than Christ.

Let me clarify. I did not mean to say that LCMers do not have Christ in common, I said that the bond that binds them together is not Christ, but rather LCM culture. For if it were Christ, they would have no problem freely having fellowship with Christians not in the LCM. In fact, they would actively seek this fellowship. But they do not. The isolationism of the LCM exposes a deep issue.

God and Christ are bigger than the LCM. They are bigger than "the Recovery." They are bigger than Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. They are bigger than any group, movement or denomination. None of us have a monopoly on Him. I'm not sure how long you've been in the LCM, but your response seems to indicate you've come to believe the myth that the LCM is so good that you don't even need the rest of the Body of Christ. This is a severe deception, contrary to the truth of God revealed in his word (1 Cor 12:20-25). The LCM does not honor the members it thinks are weaker. This is a direct violation of the word.

As long as the LCM continues to avoid contact with the majority of the Body of Christ, and maintains the attitude that they are somehow superior to the rest of the Body to the point of brushing them aside and discounting them, they are simply not producing the fruit the genuine experience of Christ should produce. There is something fundamentally wrong. So one must naturally conclude that their oneness is not Christ, but Witness Lee and Local Church culture.

This is something you should seriously consider. But you will probably resist doing so. Now, why would you tend to resist in this way? I would say most likely because of the pressure of your culture to do so, rather than any pressure or leading from God. Please ponder that.

I would never say God did not lead you to the LCM. But I would say that as long as you silently ignore the severe issues in the movement and pretend they do not exist, it's possible you are not doing what he led you there to do.

Thanks for posting.

Hi HERn,

"What makes your experience more valid than the others? "

I do not believe that.


Hi Igzy,

"I'm not sure why you address me directly here, ...."

Because you said "You can't say the experiences of life were richer unless you've experienced every other alternative. "

I did not need to experience every other alternative to know my experiences prior to coming into the Lords' Recovery were not as rich as those I experienced in the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. So I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

As long as the LCM continues to avoid contact with the majority of the Body of Christ, and maintains the attitude that they are somehow superior to the rest of the Body to the point of brushing them aside and discounting them, they are simply not producing the fruit the genuine experience of Christ should produce. There is something fundamentally wrong. So one must naturally conclude that their oneness is not Christ, but Witness Lee and Local Church culture.

That's a sectarian mindset. Making receiving in the local churches narrower than Christ's receiving (as seen in Romans 15:7). Doubt me? When a brother scrutinizes LC leadership, he is no longer welcome to meet.
I know one of the talking points is the ground of the church. Okay, what exactly is defined as the ground? Is it Jesus Christ or is it the ministries of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? If it's Jesus Christ, we can set aside earthly ministries such as Lee, Nee, etc aside and take the Bible as our only standard for basis of fellowship.

[HERn]

Excerpts from an interesting book a brother recommended.

People of the Lie

EXCERPTS FROM "PEOPLE OF THE LIE" by M. Scott Peck MD

Page 69:

"The central defect of 'the evil' is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it.

More often than not these people will be looked at as solid citizens.

How can that be?

How can they be evil and not designated as criminals?

The key word is "designated".

They are criminals in that they commit "crimes" against life and liveliness.

But except in rare instances- such as in the case of Hitler when they might achieve extraordinary degrees of political power that remove them from ordinary restraints, their "crimes are so subtle and covert that they cannot clearly be designated as crimes.

The theme of hiding and covertness will occur again and again throughout the rest of this book. It is the basis for the title "People of the Lie"."

Page 70

"Evil deeds do not make an evil person. Otherwise we would all be evil.

If evil people cannot be defined by the illegality of their deeds or the magnitude of their sins, then how are we to define them?

The answer is by the consistency of their sins.

While usually subtle, their destructiveness is remarkably consistent. This is because those who have "crossed over the line" are characterized by their absolute refusal to tolerate the sense of their own sinfulness."

Page 72

"The poor in spirit do not commit evil.

Evil is not committed by people who feel uncertain about their righteousness, who question their own motives, who worry about betraying themselves.

The evil of this world is committed by the spiritual fat cats, by the Pharisee's of our own day, the self-righteous who think they are without sin because they are unwilling to suffer the discomfort of significant self-examination.

It is out of their failure to put themselves on trial that their evil arises. They are, in my experience remarkably greedy people."

Page 73

"A predominant characteristic of the behavior that I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach, they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them. They sacrifice others to preserve their self-image of perfection."

Page 74

"Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad.

They project their own evil onto the world. The evil attack others instead of facing their own failures.

Spiritual growth requires the acknowledgment of one's own need to grow. If we cannot make that acknowledgment, we have no option except to attempt to eradicate the evidence of our imperfection.

Strangely enough, evil people are often destructive because they are attempting to destroy evil. The problem is that they misplace the locus of the evil. Instead of destroying others they should be destroying the sickness within themselves."

Page 75

"Utterly dedicated to preserving their self-image of perfection, they are unceasingly engaged in the effort to maintain the appearance of moral purity.

They are acutely sensitive to social norms and what others might think of them.

They seem to live lives that are above reproach.

The words "image", "appearance" and "outwardly" are crucial to understanding the morality of 'the evil'.

While they lack any motivation to be good, they intensely desire to appear good.

Their goodness is all on a level of pretense. It is in effect a lie. Actually the lie is designed not so much to deceive others as to deceive themselves. We lie only when we are attempting to cover up something we know to be illicit.

At one and the same time 'the evil' are aware of their evil and desperately trying to avoid the awareness. We become evil by attempting to hide from ourselves.

The wickedness of 'the evil' is not committed directly, but indirectly as a part of this cover-up process. Evil originates not in the absence of guilt but in the effort to escape it.

It often happens then that 'the evil' may be recognized by its very disguise. Because they are such experts at disguise, it is seldom possible to pinpoint the maliciousness of 'the evil'. The disguise is usually impenetrable."

Page 77

"They are not pain avoiders or lazy people in general. To the contrary, they are likely to exert themselves more than most in their continuing effort to obtain and maintain an image of respectability. They may willingly, even eagerly, undergo great hardships in their search for status.

It is only one particular pain they cannot tolerate: the pain of their own conscience, the pain of realization of their own sinfulness and imperfection.

The evil are the last people to ever go to a psychotherapist and to deal with their own deficiencies.

The evil hate the light- the light of goodness that shows them up, the light of scrutiny that exposes them, the light of truth that penetrates their deception. "

Page 78

"They are men and women of obviously strong will, determined to have their own way. There is a remarkable power in the manner in which they attempt to control others."

Page 104

"Those who are evil are masters of disguise;

They are not apt to wittingly disclose their true colors - either to others or to themselves.

It is not without reason that the serpent is renowned for his subtlety. We therefore cannot pass judgment on a person for a single act. Instead judgment must be made on the basis of a whole pattern of acts as well as their manner and style."

Page 121

"We are accustomed to feel pity and sympathy for those who are ill, but the emotions that 'the evil' invoke in us are anger and disgust, if not actual hate.

It is the unwillingness to suffer emotional pain that usually lies at the very root of emotional illness.

Those who fully experience depression, doubt, confusion and despair may be infinitely more healthy than those who are generally certain, complacent, and self-satisfied."

Page 124

"Think of the psychic energy required for the continued maintenance of the pretense so characteristic of 'the evil'! They perhaps direct at least as much energy into their devious rationalizations and destructive compensations as the healthies do into loving behavior.

Why? What possesses them, drives them? Basically, it is fear.

They are terrified that the pretense will break down and they will be exposed to the world and to themselves.

They are continually frightened that they will come face to face with their own evil.

Of all emotions, fear is the most painful. Regardless of how well they attempt to appear calm and collected in their daily dealings, 'the evil' live their lives in fear."

Page 129

"Evil people would be distinguished by these traits:

a) Consistent destructive, scapegoating behavior, which may often be quite subtle;

b) Excessive, albeit usually covert, intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury;

c) Pronounced concern with a public image and self-image of respectability, contributing to a stability of lifestyle but also to pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings or vengeful motives;

d) intellectual deviousness, with an increased likelihood of a mild schizophrenic like disturbance of thinking at times of stress."

Page 130

"But there is another vital reason to correctly name evil: the healing of its victims. The fact of the matter is that evil is one of the most difficult things to cope with."

Page 255

"How are we to take Christ's admonition to " judge not lest you be judged" and still label someone as evil? If you see something wrong don't you try to correct it? Was Hitler OK? Was Jim Jones OK? Were the medical experiments on Jews OK?

There is such a thing as an excess of sympathy, an excess of tolerance, an excess of permissiveness.

The fact of the matter is that we cannot lead decent lives without making judgments; general and moral judgments in particular.

Christ did not enjoin us to refrain from ever judging.

What Jesus went on to say in the next four verses is that we should judge ourselves before we judge others, not that we should not judge at all. We are to purify ourselves before judging others.

This is where 'the evil' fail.

It is the self-criticism they avoid."

http://www.justice4you.org/recom_people_of_the_lie.php

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Igzy,

"I'm not sure why you address me directly here, ...."

Because you said "You can't say the experiences of life were richer unless you've experienced every other alternative. "

I did not need to experience every other alternative to know my experiences prior to coming into the Lords' Recovery were not as rich as those I experienced in the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. So I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

So why didn't you just say so? In your original post "richer" was stated in a way to imply it was richer than anything. Besides, I'm not even sure what "rich" means. Seems like a very subjective description.

Does "rich" imply "produces only good fruit?" If so, then it's definitely not rich. Not by a long shot.

Originally Posted by Igzy

So why didn't you just say so? In your original post "richer" was stated in a way to imply it was richer than anything. Besides, I'm not even sure what "rich" means. Seems like a very subjective description.

Does "rich" imply "produces only good fruit?" If so, then it's definitely not rich. Not by a long shot.

I did, or at least I meant to. In my original I stated my reasons were "personal to me". Then I added :

"Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied WHEN I CAME INTO CONTACT with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Page 73

"A predominant characteristic of the behavior that I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach, they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them. They sacrifice others to preserve their self-image of perfection."

This is exactly what caused me to lose respect for a brother (Witness Lee) whom I once loved dearly. There is no amount of "good" or spiritual "riches" or Biblical "training" which I received from brother Lee over the years which could justify his pattern of scapegoating others throughout his many years of ministry.

In this regard Witness Lee was no different than the Pharisees, who killed the prophets which God sent to help them.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I did, or at least I meant to. In my original I stated my reasons were "personal to me". Then I added :

"Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied WHEN I CAME INTO CONTACT with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee"

So do you think that a group in which you have experienced such "rich" things must therefore be incapable of the abuses documented on this board?

Or do you think that a group in which you have experienced such "rich" things is entitled to commit such abuses with impunity?

Do you think you have any responsibility to understand and evaluate the checkered history of such a group? Or does "rich" experience plus ignorance suffice? Do you think that's how God feels about it?

No pressure. Just wondering how your mind works.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think he was because of three things personal to me under his ministry:

- The experiences of life were richer
- The enlightenment of the truths in the Bible were deeper and collectively fit together
- The caring and enduring relationships in the Lord's Recovery

Those are my reasons.

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

Thank you, brother, for sharing your experience. That was very brave, kind, and thoughtful of you.

Could you also describe the fruit of your experience in the LRC? What is it like? I mean, how your rich experiences and the enlightenment transformed your personality and influenced on the relationship with people outside of the Lord’s Recovery? Could you please tell about the changes?

Thanks and God bless.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied WHEN I CAME INTO CONTACT with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee"

I am sorry, English is not my native language. Could you please explain to me what you mean when you say "experiences of Christ"? What is it? When and how does it happen? And what is the main fruit of your experiences of Christ?

Thank you!

[Cal]

Cricket time...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Cricket time...

Crickets are noisy beasts ... Ever get one in your house, i mean just one?

I'm sure the guest is not used to answering these type of questions outside of his/her LC setting.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I did, or at least I meant to. In my original I stad my reasons were "personal to me". Then I added :

"Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied WHEN I CAME INTO CONTACT with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee"

Don't mean to put words in our friend's mouth, but it sounds like s/he had such experiences before the LC. I understand how they could be more frequent, I would think they would either be real or not real. I don't understand gradations of real. I understand how they could be more varied as in prayer, Bible reading, meditation, Eucharist, and other devotional venues. It's the more real part that I don't understand. Can you help me out here?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Crickets are noisy beasts ... Ever get one in your house, i mean just one?

I'm sure the guest is not used to answering these type of questions outside of his/her LC setting.

I'm sure you are right. I apologize.

Originally Posted by HERn

Don't mean to put words in our friend's mouth, but it sounds like s/he had such experiences before the LC. I understand how they could be more frequent, I would think they would either be real or not real. I don't understand gradations of real. I understand how they could be more varied as in prayer, Bible reading, meditation, Eucharist, and other devotional venues. It's the more real part that I don't understand. Can you help me out here?

HERn,

Gradation is an accurate descriptor. I believe that most Christians can relate to this gradation in their experience of Christ pre and post regeneration. After receiving God's life I became aware of many things by the sense of life within me that were displeasing to God. Unrighteous, immoral, unclean, old ways of living things that required clearing up. Later the Lord blessed me with an Acts 2 experience that heightened my awareness of the Lord's presence and leading.

When the Lord brought me to the ministry of watchman nee and witness lee this gradation in my experience of Christ accelerated in multiples. I felt as if my christian experience entered the small end of a funnel. Every week brought new insight and revelations about God, His purpose and plan, the church, the enemy, the world, the meaning of life, and His dealings with me in an ever widening variety of touched and untouched areas through the enlightenment of His Word and the precious grace upon grace I received from the sharing of dear brothers and sisters also on a similar journey.

InChristAlone,

You also asked about fruit. On the personal level, this is hard to judge. Looking back I believe the Lord has knocked off the sharpest edges, sanded down rough patches, polished some areas, but then a bad week comes along and I wonder if He is wasting His time with me. Still He is there to pick me up, dust me off, reassure Me, and tells me to keep going. Ultimately He decides the worth of fruit of every believer. Regarding believers outside of the Lord's Recovery I delight to converse, exchange experiences, and on occasion have the opportunity to meet in their homes or meeting places and they in mine. To the unbeliever I will by His guidance tell them about this wonderful Person.

[UntoHim]

Hey Unregistered Guest:

When you get a chance please take a couple of minutes and register. It's real simple. Shoot an email requesting membership, along with your desired UserName to: LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com There are several benefits to forum membership. One benefit is it will give you access to our Private Messaging system so that you can communicate in a confidential manner with other forum members, and also your posts will appear on the forum without having to go through the moderation que. This is good for you and for me, your grateful servant/admin!

At the bear minimum I would ask you to please insert a temporary UserName in the box provided. This will make it easier for readers to identify you with something other than "Unregistered Guest".

I hope you register, because you are one of the most lucid and reasonable people to come along.

Thanks and God bless,
Your brother who is unto Him.

-

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

HERn,

Gradation is an accurate descriptor. I believe that most Christians can relate to this gradation in their experience of Christ pre and post regeneration. After receiving God's life I became aware of many things by the sense of life within me that were displeasing to God. Unrighteous, immoral, unclean, old ways of living things that required clearing up. Later the Lord blessed me with an Acts 2 experience that heightened my awareness of the Lord's presence and leading.

When the Lord brought me to the ministry of watchman nee and witness lee this gradation in my experience of Christ accelerated in multiples. I felt as if my christian experience entered the small end of a funnel. Every week brought new insight and revelations about God, His purpose and plan, the church, the enemy, the world, the meaning of life, and His dealings with me in an ever widening variety of touched and untouched areas through the enlightenment of His Word and the precious grace upon grace I received from the sharing of dear brothers and sisters also on a similar journey.

InChristAlone,

You also asked about fruit. On the personal level, this is hard to judge. Looking back I believe the Lord has knocked off the sharpest edges, sanded down rough patches, polished some areas, but then a bad week comes along and I wonder if He is wasting His time with me. Still He is there to pick me up, dust me off, reassure Me, and tells me to keep going. Ultimately He decides the worth of fruit of every believer. Regarding believers outside of the Lord's Recovery I delight to converse, exchange experiences, and on occasion have the opportunity to meet in their homes or meeting places and they in mine. To the unbeliever I will by His guidance tell them about this wonderful Person.

Thank you for giving us your testimony of Christ being life in you, and through you, in the church life and toward others. Praise the Lord!

Hope you will stay and have more fellowship with us.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

InChristAlone,

You also asked about fruit. On the personal level, this is hard to judge. Looking back I believe the Lord has knocked off the sharpest edges, sanded down rough patches, polished some areas, but then a bad week comes along and I wonder if He is wasting His time with me. Still He is there to pick me up, dust me off, reassure Me, and tells me to keep going. Ultimately He decides the worth of fruit of every believer. Regarding believers outside of the Lord's Recovery I delight to converse, exchange experiences, and on occasion have the opportunity to meet in their homes or meeting places and they in mine. To the unbeliever I will by His guidance tell them about this wonderful Person.

Thank you for your testimony. May the Lord bless, guide and save you.

PS If you have a wish, please try to get and read "The Explanation by Blessed Theophylact of the Holy Gospel". Blessed Theophylact (ca. 1050/60-ca. 1108) was one of the most famous Byzantine biblical scholars. A bit less than 1000 years ago, he completed extensive biblical commentaries on the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the New Testament Epistles.

I am not sure if you like Theophylact's commentaries on the New Testament. But as far me, I consider them one of the most profound commentaries that I have read. (Actually, St John Chrysostom's (c. 349 – 407) commentaries are even more extensive and profound but his language is hard to read).

God bless.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Thank you for your testimony. May the Lord bless, guide and save you.

PS If you have a wish, please try to get and read "The Explanation by Blessed Theophylact of the Holy Gospel". Blessed Theophylact (ca. 1050/60-ca. 1108) was one of the most famous Byzantine biblical scholars. A bit less than 1000 years ago, he completed extensive biblical commentaries on the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the New Testament Epistles.

I am not sure if you like his Theophylact's commentaries on the New Testament. But as far me, I consider them one of the most profound commentaries that I have read. (Actually, St John Chrysostom's (c. 349 – 407) commentaries are even more extensive and profound but his language is hard to read).

God bless.

I will give Theophylact a read.

[HERn]

Well it's been over two years and I 'm still going on in a real local church and nothing bad has happened so I guess BP is a liar. One of my close family members is starting to see the corruption in the LCs. My Savior is mine and I am His. The Lord is tearing down the mental strongholds in many LC saints that cause them to follow men rather than Christ.

[HERn]

Well, there have been"bad" things, but the Lord is working things out.

[HERn]

I just learned that one of my distant LC relatives has cut off the grandmother of her kids until she learns to live under "the daily dispensing". Any insights to this error? Seems religious and mean.

[NewManLiving]

It's cultic behavior

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by HERn

I just learned that one of my distant LC relatives has cut off the grandmother of her kids until she learns to live under "the daily dispensing". Any insights to this error? Seems religious and mean.

I am sad to hear that. It's definitely a mark of a cult.

I live in an Asian country. Thank God, my wife, her relatives, and our LC friends have been treating me with same love since I stopped going to their meetings. Maybe its their culture or the church life is not that "glorious" in our locality.

[Lisbon]

I am sometimes bewildered with what I read on this forum. Posters whom I usually agree with and enjoy often speak of the glory of the sixties and I sort of understand. And as WL often said, there is a great big '"but". It's pretty clear to me that almost all WL's history of pre WN came to us at the hand or mouth of WL. That's not good, not trustworthy. It's in the same mode as Washington chopping the cherry tree. Folk lore.

If WL was previously "good" when did he turn bad. It's hard for me to think he just turned bad with Day Star. I read this quote, someone ask WN who should they select to get a certain job done, and the reply was WL can get it done.

The only good comment WL made on"Against the Tide" was that it had a picture of him at WN's wedding. WL badly needed the help of WN. And he milked it for all its worth.

I've officially been out only three and half years after being in LC for 40 yrs.
I am some unhappy to hear that some of you were sired by WL. I don't believe it. I met with RK in Irving for a few years and of course he said that.
Even that long ago I didn't like the description. But if you do I would not argue. When WL first spoke, he lied. " I just believe in the pure word of God.." He went so far as to say he would believe in verbal inspiration if we could get an accurate translation of New Testament. He picked and chose what he would believe and teach. Never in my 40 years did I ever hear anyone quote 1Tim 1:3 or whatever and quote the whole of the sentence. The part about the end of the charge being love out of a pure heart, genuine faith, and a good conscience I never once heard. Somethings badly wrong there. I think I shouldn't call him all the things I think he was but one of them is wolf.

I think I'm used to being deceived. I began voting Republican in 1952 and just this year, I've concluded that I was deceived all those years. So WL and the RNC both have deceive me many years. The only thing I have reaped from this sad time is I now pray for many more people and lately even for RK, BP, and RG. I'm not good and have had much bad feelings toward these brothers and I now feel they are badly deceived as I was.
Lord be merciful.
Lisbon

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

If WL was previously "good" when did he turn bad. It's hard for me to think he just turned bad with Day Star. I read this quote, someone ask WN who should they select to get a certain job done, and the reply was WL can get it done.

I think I'm used to being deceived. I began voting Republican in 1952 and just this year, I've concluded that I was deceived all those years. So WL and the RNC both have deceive me many years.
Lisbon

I understand the connections here, and I can surely relate to the same deceptions as you, only for shorter periods of time.

When I think back about my time in the LC's, or for that matter, my time with other conservatives, my views were not just shaped by the leaders, but by the many members at my side, whom I interacted with on a daily basis. As long as the leadership went in a direction I was comfortable with, and aligned with my own principles, then I followed along. Eventually those leaderships have taken their programs in directions I could no longer agree with, so I parted ways.

Let's face it, all men are liars. The Bible says so, and these recent conventions prove it. The same could be said of many LC leaders. I guess that makes me a liar too. Some have said that about my posts here.

Our salvation ultimately hinges on our attachment to the Truth, whose name is Jesus.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I think I'm used to being deceived. I began voting Republican in 1952 and just this year, I've concluded that I was deceived all those years. So WL and the RNC both have deceive me many years. The only thing I have reaped from this sad time is I now pray for many more people and lately even for RK, BP, and RG.

I relate to some degree. I always voted Democratic, but after watching the first 2 days of the DNC in Philly I seriously wondered how I could ever support those people. The ineptitude, incompetence and venality on display made me re-evaluate everything.

Ah, well. Come, Lord Jesus. Amen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I relate to some degree. I always voted Democratic, but after watching the first 2 days of the DNC in Philly I seriously wondered how I could ever support those people. The ineptitude, incompetence and venality on display made me re-evaluate everything.

Ah, well. Come, Lord Jesus. Amen.

How much to throw out?

Time to throw out any hope we have in man, in politics, in the courts, in elected officials, and in governments.

I left the Democratic Party when they legalized abortion. I left the Republican Party when I saw they were the same.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How much to throw out?

Time to throw out any hope we have in man, in politics, in the courts, in elected officials, and in governments. .

It was quite the experience to have scales fall from my eyes and see "my" candidate and "my" party looking as odious as the opposition has long portrayed them. Surely we need to pray.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(KJV)

It doesn't get much simpler than that. Lord Jesus, intercede for this land, and this people. For its leaders, and our decisions as they press hard upon us. Give us wisdom and discernment. We also pray for the Syrians, the Slavs, the Ethiopians and the Venezuelans. For every people, tribe and tongue. Lord Yeshua King of Israel, Son of David, have mercy on us all. You are sole mediator between God and man, and are Lord of all, God-blessed forever. Amen.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

It was quite the experience to have scales fall from my eyes and see "my" candidate and "my" party looking as odious as the opposition has long portrayed them. Surely we need to pray.

(KJV)

It doesn't get much simpler than that. Lord Jesus, intercede for this land, and this people. For its leaders, and our decisions as they press hard upon us. Give us wisdom and discernment. We also pray for the Syrians, the Slavs, the Ethiopians and the Venezuelans. For every people, tribe and tongue. Lord Yeshua King of Israel, Son of David, have mercy on us all. You are sole mediator between God and man, and are Lord of all, God-blessed forever. Amen.

Our pastor shared something last Sunday: Will Davis shares from Esther.

Come January, baring something highly unusual, either Mr. Trump or Mrs. Clinton will be president. Whomever it is, God will be the one who gave them authority. The Bible commands us to pray for our leaders (1 Tim 2:1-3). Criticism is part of politics and democracy, but criticism is not part of our role as the Church to pray that God guide the hearts of our leaders. Praying for our leaders, as opposed to criticizing them, is our first and primary role as Christians under the rule of men (and women) appointed by God.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Come January, baring something highly unusual, either Mr. Trump or Mrs. Clinton will be president. Whomever it is, God will be the one who gave them authority. The Bible commands us to pray for our leaders (1 Tim 2:1-3). Criticism is part of politics and democracy, but criticism is not part of our role as the Church to pray that God guide the hearts of our leaders. Praying for our leaders, as opposed to criticizing them, is our first and primary role as Christians under the rule of men (and women) appointed by God.

Thanks Igzy for this wise and timely Bible lesson!

And on this note let's move on to the subject at hand. We have enough contentious things to get into without getting into politics.

-

[HERn]

Good quote today.

"

When a modern movement starts out with the deliberate intention of reproducing the life & order of the apostolic age, it will before long reproduce the features of the post-apostolic age, such as standardization of worship, ministry & doctrine...& so forth.
F. F. Bruce
Lessons from the Early Church,” David J. Ellis, W. Ward Gasque, eds., In God’s Community, p. 157"

So, there really isn't anything new under the sun (thanks Soloman). Of course this was written by a protestant theologian. Maybe because the NT writers did not "standardize" much, the Lord Jesus never intended for anything "standardized" to become entrenched regarding how to "do church". So, find a tradition that satisfies you and the Lord and go for it. Watch out for ditches on either side of the road and beware of false teachers. Have devotions with the Lord, take care of the poor, help the weak, love the brothers and sisters, be generous with time and money, and don't follow any man or woman who others say has the unique ministry following Christ.

[HERn]

Here's something else from the F. F. Bruce document.

"The New Testament bears ample witness to the centrifugal tendencies in apostolic Christianity: we have only to think of the tensions between Jewish and Gentile Christians, between legalists and libertarians, between the rank and file who were content with the ‘simple gospel’ and the spiritual elite who preferred what they imagined to be more advanced teaching."

The spiritual elite...sounds like the leaders of the LR.

"The church is the dwelling-place of the Spirit, and ‘where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom’ (II Cor. 3:17). Structures of ministry, government and order are of value so long as they provide vehicles for the free moving of the Spirit; when they cease to do that, they should be replaced by more suitable ones. Whatever at any time helps the church to discharge her proper functions―the worship of God, the strengthening of fellowship within her membership and the witness of outgoing and self-giving love to mankind―that is what matters. When the church thinks more of her status than of her service, she has taken a wrong path and must immediately retrace her steps. As the church’s Lord was (and remains) the Man for others, the church must be the society for others, the community of the reconciled which is at the same time the instrument by which the reconciling grace of God in Christ is communicated to the world. All that enables the church to be this is true development; all that hinders the church from being this is departure."

Wow! When a church thinks more of it's status than it's service...this sounds like the church of the blended brothers.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

It was quite the experience to have scales fall from my eyes and see "my" candidate and "my" party looking as odious as the opposition has long portrayed them. Surely we need to pray.

(KJV)

It doesn't get much simpler than that. Lord Jesus, intercede for this land, and this people. For its leaders, and our decisions as they press hard upon us. Give us wisdom and discernment. We also pray for the Syrians, the Slavs, the Ethiopians and the Venezuelans. For every people, tribe and tongue. Lord Yeshua King of Israel, Son of David, have mercy on us all. You are sole mediator between God and man, and are Lord of all, God-blessed forever. Amen.

I say amen to this prayer. Thank you Lord that you desire all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth. Please grant our leaders wisdom to keep peace and tranquility, and empower your church to live soberly and speak forth your word of salvation and knowledge of the truth, which is in Jesus.

[HERn]

I had a really good experience of worshiping the Father this morning singing Chris Tomlin's song You're a good good Father. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqybaIesbuA

To me it was as genuine as anything I sang in the LSM-controlled local churches. And this was at a Baptist Church. No group has a monopoly on God's Spirit!!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I had a really good experience of worshiping the Father this morning singing Chris Tomlin's song You're a good good Father. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqybaIesbuA

To me it was as genuine as anything I sang in the LSM-controlled local churches. And this was at a Baptist Church. No group has a monopoly on God's Spirit!!

Thanks for sharing, HERn. My church sings that song too. It is a good reminder of who our Father is (Good), and how he loves us.

God is Spirit. And, those who worship Him worship Him in spirit and in truth. The woman at the well got it. Having a personal and honest encounter with Jesus the Son brings out true worship.... and a testimony to others concerning Him as the Christ.

[JJ]

I'm wondering if we should throw out the concept that any one true believer has more life than another.

It seems that much damage happens when we start comparing ourselves to each other, when "he who has the Son has the life". http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-12.htm

Shouldn't it be more about living by faith now that we have Christ who is our life? http://biblehub.com/colossians/3-4.htm; http://biblehub.com/romans/1-17.htm; http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-7.htm

And, if we think our brother or sister isn't living enough by faith.... after we take the log out of our own self righteous eye, shouldn't we spend our time praying for them and encouraging them, rather than criticizing them?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm wondering if we should throw out the concept that any one true believer has more life than another.

It seems that much damage happens when we start comparing ourselves to each other, when "he who has the Son has the life". http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-12.htm

Shouldn't it be more about living by faith now that we have Christ who is our life? http://biblehub.com/colossians/3-4.htm; http://biblehub.com/romans/1-17.htm; http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-7.htm

And, if we think our brother or sister isn't living enough by faith.... after we take the log out of our own self righteous eye, shouldn't we spend our time praying for them and encouraging them, rather than criticizing them?

I'm wondering if we have more of Christ or does Christ have more of us. I'm afraid of the more of life concept because whose life are we talking about?

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the notion that the ministry of WL (as interpreted by the blendeds) and/or the feeling of the body (as interpreted by the blendeds) should govern my behavior rather than the feeling of my conscience and the real word of God in the bible. To me the ministry of WL is extra-biblical because it goes way beyond what scripture says in some areas, and ignores or denigrates some direct teachings of our Lord and the Apostles, and even relegates some books of the bible as not being the Word of God even though they may be inspired. I don't think the teaching of the feeling of the body as promulgated by WL and now the blendeds was taught by our Lord or the Apostles. To me it's a subjective, extra-biblical, pseudo-spiritual practice designed to control and deceive the saints by causing them to ignore their consciences. Escaping this subtle demonic mind control is exceedingly and painfully difficult, at least it was for me. Anything that directs the saints away from Christ and His touching of our conscience via the bible should be considered satanic, in my opinion.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm wondering if we have more of Christ or does Christ have more of us. I'm afraid of the more of life concept because whose life are we talking about?

There is scriptural grounds for "gaining Christ" and for growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ http://biblehub.com/philippians/3-8.,
http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-18.htm, Hern.

And, you are right about being specific about who's life we are talking about.

We have the four gospels and testimonies of the apostles to see what the life of Christ looks like. OK, time to stop looking at anyone else now for me.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm throwing out the notion that the ministry of WL (as interpreted by the blendeds) and/or the feeling of the body (as interpreted by the blendeds) should govern my behavior rather than the feeling of my conscience and the real word of God in the bible. To me the ministry of WL is extra-biblical because it goes way beyond what scripture says in some areas, and ignores or denigrates some direct teachings of our Lord and the Apostles, and even relegates some books of the bible as not being the Word of God even though they may be inspired. I don't think the teaching of the feeling of the body as promulgated by WL and now the blendeds was taught by our Lord or the Apostles. To me it's a subjective, extra-biblical, pseudo-spiritual practice designed to control and deceive the saints by causing them to ignore their consciences. Escaping this subtle demonic mind control is exceedingly and painfully difficult, at least it was for me. Anything that directs the saints away from Christ and His touching of our conscience via the bible should be considered satanic, in my opinion.

I'm with you here, Hern. Though none of us graduates from being subject to one another in Christ, i.e. what we say and practice is open to scrutiny of our fellow believers, and subject to correction when it doesn't match scripture.

[SteVee]

For a couple of weeks now, I've been thinking about this basic question, "How much to throw out?" My thought has been in the context of those whom I have known that have discovered errors in the particular movement through which they were either saved or brought up.

For example, the requirement of baptism for salvation, and the need to maintain good works to keep one's salvation (Church of Christ). If you are truly saved, you must speak in tongues, and you need to avoid certain conspicuous sins to retain your salvation (Pentecostalism). Infant baptism (Presbyterianism). Any heady dogmatic stand on last things (many groups) or a complete ignorance of last things (Methodism). Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. I could list many more.

Whatever your church background and the shocking, disheartening spiritual injuries you have suffered, let me suggest that you retain the following incomplete list.

1 - Christ. This may seem self evident, but you can become so shaken that you don't know if you can believe anything. Take your eyes off of the horizontal (people and movements) and fix them on the vertical (Christ). He lives.

2 - the Bible - you can understand most of the Bible if you read a decent modern translation often enough and long enough. The main things are the plain things. Pray for the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Bible for you, but don't expect novel ideas or a unique revelation that no one else has noticed. There will be many things that are new to you, however if you read the entire Bible.

3 - whatever else keeps you from the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes and the pride of life. (1 Jn 2:15-17) Christian liberty is not libertine to the chagrin of most modern churches. Many things are permissible, but not all things are profitable for your walk with Christ. Going back to point 1, if you would retain Christ, imitate Him, don't react to those who have hurt you lest you be like them. As a man thinks so is He.

Suzannah Wesley offered the following definition of sin, "Whatever weakens your sense of reasoning, impairs the tenderness of your conscience or obscures your sense of God, or takes away your relish for spiritual things. In short, if anything increases the authority and power of the flesh over the Spirit that to you becomes sin, however good it is in and of itself."

I have known some, having been injured or discovering some falsehood in the movement that they were a part of, that have become so shaken that they either drift away little by little, or suddenly abandon all and become enslaved by sin.

Proactively build yourself up in Christ through Reading and obeying His Word. If it is plainly written in the Bible, it isn't wrong just because it is associated with the church you've come from (in this case, the LC).

More could be said, especially about seeking out Christian fellowship with those who are eagerly pursuing Christ (Hebrews 10:24,25), but I have to go to work.

[Cal]

My take is don't think about what to throw away, think about what to start with. The list is short. Add anything if God leads, but he probably won't.

The Faith -- Keep it. God, Christ, the Spirit, salvation by faith in the work of Christ, the resurrected Christ as Lord who will return to judge and restore the earth.

The First commandment -- Love God first and completely.

The Second commandment -- Love others as you love yourself.

The Bible -- Read it, obey it.

Prayer -- Do it.

The Church -- Have relationships with other Christians. Meet regularly with a group that is seeking God.

Mission -- Live for God to spread his kingdom. This is done through words, but mostly deeds--serving others for his sake. Be sacrificial for others with your time and resources.

Practice the presence of God -- Seek a closer, more dependent, trusting and adoring relationship with God.

It's not complicated, and if you think it is you need to throw more out.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SteVee

For a couple of weeks now, I've been thinking about this basic question, "How much to throw out?" My thought has been in the context of those whom I have known that have discovered errors in the particular movement through which they were either saved or brought up.

I found that this discussion forum was particularly helpful in exposing and uprooting pernicious and obnoxious "weeds" which had been sown into my mind, almost imperceptibly, during my many active years in the LC's.

Originally Posted by Igzy

My take is don't think about what to throw away, think about what to start with. The list is short. Add anything if God leads, but he probably won't.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. Far too many ex-LCers have discarded the good with the bad, and have thus ship-wrecked their faith in God. Yesterday I was considering how Jesus was betrayed by one of his closest friends. What did He do? He established a New Covenant. (I Cor 11.23-26)

Likewise, many of us felt seriously betrayed at the time we left the LC. I know I did. Years of wrongs then seemed to surface in my mind. It wasn't that I was unforgiving others for past offenses, but huge question marks were appearing on every part of the LC program, including teachings, practices, and especially leaderships -- local, regional, and national.

Since so much of our Christian life was caught up with the LC movement, some could no longer distinguish what was real, and what was phony, and ended up clinging to new things far worse that the LC, at least to my thinking.

A good way to start is what I encourage all new believers to do: Read the Gospels and talk to Jesus. Then talk to others about Him.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree with this whole-heartedly. .

Amen, here, too. SteVee's post was succinct and clear. When one leaves the LC (or whatever oppressive, deviant, unbalanced religious setting) one is often in need of such counsel. In my exit, I was out physically, yet my mind was muddled, still recoiling from program rhetoric, and unable to sort truth from "interpreted truth" (ahem). This kind of clear advice might help those who find themselves in similar straits.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by SteVee

For a couple of weeks now, I've been thinking about this basic question, "How much to throw out?" My thought has been in the context of those whom I have known that have discovered errors in the particular movement through which they were either saved or brought up.

For example, the requirement of baptism for salvation, and the need to maintain good works to keep one's salvation (Church of Christ). If you are truly saved, you must speak in tongues, and you need to avoid certain conspicuous sins to retain your salvation (Pentecostalism). Infant baptism (Presbyterianism). Any heady dogmatic stand on last things (many groups) or a complete ignorance of last things (Methodism). Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. I could list many more.

Whatever your church background and the shocking, disheartening spiritual injuries you have suffered, let me suggest that you retain the following incomplete list.

1 - Christ. This may seem self evident, but you can become so shaken that you don't know if you can believe anything. Take your eyes off of the horizontal (people and movements) and fix them on the vertical (Christ). He lives.

2 - the Bible - you can understand most of the Bible if you read a decent modern translation often enough and long enough. The main things are the plain things. Pray for the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Bible for you, but don't expect novel ideas or a unique revelation that no one else has noticed. There will be many things that are new to you, however if you read the entire Bible.

3 - whatever else keeps you from the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes and the pride of life. (1 Jn 2:15-17) Christian liberty is not libertine to the chagrin of most modern churches. Many things are permissible, but not all things are profitable for your walk with Christ. Going back to point 1, if you would retain Christ, imitate Him, don't react to those who have hurt you lest you be like them. As a man thinks so is He.

Suzannah Wesley offered the following definition of sin, "Whatever weakens your sense of reasoning, impairs the tenderness of your conscience or obscures your sense of God, or takes away your relish for spiritual things. In short, if anything increases the authority and power of the flesh over the Spirit that to you becomes sin, however good it is in and of itself."

I have known some, having been injured or discovering some falsehood in the movement that they were a part of, that have become so shaken that they either drift away little by little, or suddenly abandon all and become enslaved by sin.

Proactively build yourself up in Christ through Reading and obeying His Word. If it is plainly written in the Bible, it isn't wrong just because it is associated with the church you've come from (in this case, the LC).

More could be said, especially about seeking out Christian fellowship with those who are eagerly pursuing Christ (Hebrews 10:24,25), but I have to go to work.

Thanks SteVee! For me those are excellent and positive comments.

[SteVee]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A good way to start is what I encourage all new believers to do: Read the Gospels and talk to Jesus. Then talk to others about Him.

Amen! I think that is where I need to go back to at this stage in my walk.

Thanks for the kind words Aron, HERn and Ohio.

Dittos to Igzy's summary.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A good way to start is what I encourage all new believers to do: Read the Gospels and talk to Jesus. Then talk to others about Him.

I did just this by reading a totally new (to me) version (The Unvarnished NT) of the NT gospels and praying as I read. Still doing it now with a different version (The Simple English Bible). I'm not recommending these versions for doctrine, but they made reading the gospels very new and fresh for me.

All the best to my brothers and sisters trying to make an exit from the LCs.

[HERn]

RHETORICAL QUESTION FOR ABSOLUTE SAINTS WHOSE SPOUSES AREN'T

Are you absolute for "the ministry"? You know, the teaching of WL as packaged and promulgated by the being-blinded-brothers.

Let me ask you absolute saints: Are you married to "the ministry" or your spouse? For example, if you are a wife and your husband says that the family will no longer participate in the LSM local churches, but will seek fellowship with a Christ-honoring group not associated with LSM would you follow your husband or would you follow the teaching of the being-blinded-brothers and stay faithful to "the ministry"? If you choose "the ministry" over your husband, then I'm afraid you are really married to the-being-blinded brothers' "the ministry". I ask this because I think I have observed over 20 something years that the emphasis from the LC leadership is that spouses should choose "the ministry" over their spouses. I'm not talking about forsaking Christ or our assembling with other Christians, but just changing denominations in order to leave the oppressive LSM-controlled LC denomination.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

RHETORICAL QUESTION FOR ABSOLUTE SAINTS WHOSE SPOUSES AREN'T

Are you absolute for "the ministry"? You know, the teaching of WL as packaged and promulgated by the being-blinded-brothers.

Let me ask you absolute saints: Are you married to "the ministry" or your spouse? For example, if you are a wife and your husband says that the family will no longer participate in the LSM local churches, but will seek fellowship with a Christ-honoring group not associated with LSM would you follow your husband or would you follow the teaching of the being-blinded-brothers and stay faithful to "the ministry"? If you choose "the ministry" over your husband, then I'm afraid you are really married to the-being-blinded brothers "the ministry".

It was almost a badge of honor to be divorced on behalf of "Christ and the church."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I did just this by reading a totally new (to me) version (The Unvarnished NT) of the NT gospels and praying as I read. Still doing it now with a different version (The Simple English Bible).

I donated some household things, and they gave me a paperback New Testament -- the World English Bible -- I really like it.

Wikipedia says this about it: The World English Bible is a free updated revision of the American Standard Version. It is one of the few public domain, modern-English translations of the entire Bible, and it is freely distributed to the public using electronic formats.

That's the kind of attitude that should be behind every translation of the Bible, including the Recovery Version.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I donated some household things, and they gave me a paperback New Testament -- the World English Bible -- I really like it.

Wikipedia says this about it: The World English Bible is a free updated revision of the American Standard Version. It is one of the few public domain, modern-English translations of the entire Bible, and it is freely distributed to the public using electronic formats.

That's the kind of attitude that should be behind every translation of the Bible, including the Recovery Version.

Thanks! I'll check it out.

[HERn]

Quote from Matt Perman

"If there is one passage which most clearly brings all of this together, it is Matthew 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” First, notice that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinguished as distinct Persons. We baptize into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Second, notice that each Person must be deity because they are all placed on the same level. In fact, would Jesus have us baptize in the name of a mere creature? Surely not. Therefore each of the Persons into whose name we are to be baptized must be deity. Third, notice that although the three divine Persons are distinct, we are baptized into their name (singular), not names (plural). The three Persons are distinct, yet only constitute one name. This can only be if they share one essence."

WL and now the false teachers known as the being-blended-brothers (or co-workers), elders within the LCs, and serving ones on the campuses teach regarding the divine life that "the Father is the source of this divine life, the Son is the course of this divine life, and Spirit is the flow of this divine life". This is an insidious and, I believe, a Satan-inspired doctrinal error that has deceived thousands of seeking Christians (including myself) associated with the LC movement.

By making this statement these teachers falsely state that the Father is the source or origin of the divine life, the Son is the course or the path through which we receive the divine life, and the Spirit is the flow or the divine life itself that reaches man. I believe Satan has used WL to exalt the essence of God (His divine life) over the distinct Persons of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). WL effectively separated the essence of God from the persons of God. To me the practical application of this false teaching is that it caused me to focus my worship and attention on the essence of God (divine life) rather than the Persons of God who eternally and individually exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I don't think Satan objects to the worship of the essence or divine life of God, but he greatly opposes the worship of the Persons of God. After all, Satan tried to exalt his person to reach even to the "Most High" (a person) and was thrown out. On earth Satan opposed and sought to kill the Son of God (a person) not the divine life of God (God's essence). And now among the the LCs there's a tendency to focus on "life", "the feeling of the body" and other subjective things at the expense of worshiping the Persons of God. Maybe someone can explain how the table meetings (where the Father and Son are worshiped) of the LCs exist along with the false teaching that often occurs in the prophesying meetings and conferences? If this is too harsh or in error I'm open to correction and will modify my statement.

Here is the link to the website that got me thinking along these lines.

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/...of-the-trinity

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

WL and now the false teachers known as the being-blended-brothers (or co-workers), elders within the LCs, and serving ones on the campuses .... falsely state that the Father is the source or origin of the divine life, the Son is the course or the path through which we receive the divine life, and the Spirit is the flow or the divine life itself that reaches man. I believe Satan has used WL to exalt the essence of God (His divine life) over the distinct Persons of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). WL effectively separated the essence of God from the persons of God. To me the practical application of this false teaching is that it caused me to focus my worship and attention on the essence of God (divine life) rather than the Persons of God who eternally and individually exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.]

One passage that helped expose WL's failed attempt to merge the distinct persons of the Trinity was the throne scene in Revelation 1. There are greetings given. And these greetings are from different persons. Greetings from "A", and from "B" and from "C". How was anyone supposed to read that A = B = C?

We all know the verses:

John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the sevenfold Spirit before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

There are three instances of "from" here. Grace and peace to you from "A" and from "B" and from "C". What doctrine erases this clear distinction? 1 Cor 15:45(b) "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" and John 1:14 "The Word became flesh"? To me, in attempting this, you end up with a silly Bible. You get your secret decoder ring from verses thus-and-such, then you take your secret decoder ring and tell all and sundry that the rest of the Bible is saying something it is plainly not. Hot becomes cold and up becomes down and three persons become one person. Because the decoder ring says so.

So Jesus is the one sitting on the throne, and is also the one walking in front of the throne in the midst of the golden lampstands, and is also the seven flames burning on the lampstands. Right? And since the church is the Body of Christ, then the seven churches in Asia are also Jesus. And since the angels are ministering spirits, and since Jesus became a life-giving Spirit, and Ephesians clearly tell us there is only one Spirit, then the seven angels to the seven Asian churches are also Jesus. Should I stop now, or do we want to keep going? What level of absurdity does it take to make us pause?

How about, the Spirit is speaking to the churches, so Jesus (the Spirit) is speaking to Jesus (the Body of Christ), and furthermore since the speaking is the Word (and is spirit and life, John 6:63), the speaking is also Jesus the Word of God made flesh. Therefore Jesus is delivering Jesus to Jesus. Gee, no wonder it says, "Let him who has ears to hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches." Without WL's decoder ring, how could we ever properly understand this? Finally someone came along and cut straight the word for us!

(p.s. Google "Witness Lee proper" sometime. You'll learn there is a proper church life, a proper consecration, a proper aggressiveness, a proper spiritual life, and a proper expression of the Body of Christ. And that's just from the first seven hits.)

[OBW]

You know that old LP with a bad scratch on it that made it repeat that one little part over and over until you nudged the needle?

That's me.

How much to throw out?

Generally, if it is peculiar to teachings and practices of the LCM and you haven't found it somewhere else, it might should just go.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

You know that old LP with a bad scratch on it that made it repeat that one little part over and over until you nudged the needle?

That's me.

How much to throw out?

Generally, if it is peculiar to teachings and practices of the LCM and you haven't found it somewhere else, it might should just go.

Right. If there's anything healthy or good in the LCs or the LSM teaching it did not originate there, and anything unique to the LCs or LSM should be avoided.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Right. If there's anything healthy or good in the LCs or the LSM teaching it did not originate there, and anything unique to the LCs or LSM should be avoided.

We heard ad nauseum about Lee "standing on the shoulders" of other Christian writers. I now think these are just code words for plagiarizing others' work. Since we heard so much from Lee which was actually sound, because it came from others, we should only examine those teachings which were unique to his ministry, and discard them.

[HERn]

THE DEVIL IS A PREACHER

Russell Moore.

http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/08/...ing-preaching/

"The devil is a preacher. From the third chapter of the Bible onward, he is opening up God’s word to people, seeking to interpret it, to apply it, to offer an invitation.

So the old Serpent of Eden comes to the primeval woman not with a Black Mass and occult symbols, but with the Word she’d received from her God—with the snake’s peculiar spin on it. Throughout the Old Testament, he preaches peace—just like the angels of Bethlehem do—except he does so when there is no peace. He points God’s people to the particulars of worship commanded by God—sacrifices and offerings and feast-days—just without the preeminent mandates of love, justice, and mercy. Satan even preaches to God—about the proper motives needed for godly discipleship on the part of God’s servants.

In the New Testament, the satanic deception leads the scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees to pour endlessly over biblical texts, just missing the point of Christ Jesus therein. They come to conclusions that have partially biblical foundations—the devil’s messages are always expository—they just intentionally avoid Jesus."

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

THE DEVIL IS A PREACHER

Russell Moore.

"The devil is a preacher. From the third chapter of the Bible onward, he is opening up God’s word to people, seeking to interpret it, to apply it, to offer an invitation."

WL appreciated the gospel, promoted it, lived for it. Unfortunately he didn't stop there. For him, the gospel was an vehicle to co-opt the Christian church.

Recently I've been reading about what LSM operatives did in China when it was opened up, post-1979. They weren't willing to come alongside the Little Flock house churches, but took them over. Eventually this brought in ruin. The safety of the old warriors was removed, and the new brigades of WL lacked a spiritual foundation. "Just shout O Lord Jesus ten times" etc. Eventually it imploded into cults. Shouting O Lord Changshou, extortion, forced doctrines, even kidnapping.

If you think that's an anomaly, here's a testimony from India. Again, LSM operatives weren't willing to greet the church bought by Jesus, but wanted to take it over.

http://www.thethreadofgold.com/Feedback--India.html

They told us they are overcommers and recovery of church started with Witness Lee. They gave evasive answers for many questions. I also came to know they "raised" up 300 churches all over India. On enquiry, we came to know they are all existing churches taken over by LSM. Finally sensing trouble that they can cause on a long run to our spiritual life, we asked them to stop coming if they want to continue with the teaching of Witness Lee. Thus ended our 7-month association with LSM group.

And in the USA we saw the same thing repeatedly. Not stability, but pretense, manipulation, finally turmoil as a way to gain control. Established leaders were called "old" and removed. Loyalty to the ministry was the one enduring constant.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

And in the USA we saw the same thing repeatedly. Not stability, but pretense, manipulation, finally turmoil as a way to gain control. Established leaders were called "old" and removed. Loyalty to the ministry was the one enduring constant.

Those called "old" were usually ones that couldn't be counted on for loyalty. By contrast what's the difference of brothers 5-10 years younger? For example during the late 80's turmoil, brothers like Benson Phillips and Titus Chu weren't considered old because they were loyal. However brothers like Don Hardy and John So were considered old because they couldn't be counted on to be loyal.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

WL appreciated the gospel, promoted it, lived for it. Unfortunately he didn't stop there. For him, the gospel was an vehicle to co-opt the Christian church.

The Christian church was only a vessel to be remade in WL's own image. Apart from his ministry it was supposedly dark and corrupted, and was referred to as satanic, a whore, devilish, etc.

What's revealing to me is the difference in methodology in promoting the cause of co-optation. In China, there was no need for subtlety. There was a kind of blitzkrieg, scorched-earth policy. Get on board or get left behind.

Originally Posted by John Myer

A number of books recently published by Chinese scholars in English document the growth of Christianity in China (including its rapid growth in recent decades). One is Redeemed by Fire by Lian Xi, Professor of History at Hanover College. Xi reports that “In Henan [province] where the influence of the Shouters remained strong throughout the 1980s, many were baptized in the name of Li Changshou [Witness Lee], who they claimed was the ‘victor from the east’ prophesied in Isaiah, the ‘successor to Jesus’ and the one foretold in the Book of Revelation who would open the scroll and its seven seals” (p. 217].2 According to Professor Xi, “The Shouters,” were branded “an evil cult” by the Chinese government. Therefore, the LSM-Taiwan Gospel Bookroom church associated with them was labeled a "counterrevolutionary organization." In 1983, there was a crackdown on “the Shouters” with up to 2,000 arrests.

Admittedly, the Chinese government is not a spiritual entity and therefore not expected to discern the fine points of spirituality. Unregenerate humanity has always misunderstood “Him who was born according to the Spirit” and spoken against the church everywhere. But detection of errors such as those mentioned above hardly require spirituality, just a factual understanding of the historic Christian faith.

In addition, indigenous academic writers have begun to record the recent history of Christianity in China and they are not giving any strain of the LC movement [such as “The Shouters” of Witness Lee] a free pass, or a clean bill of health. Much to contrary, they are seriously questioning whether it is indeed a cult.

No doubt, Living Stream spokesmen would disavow extremes of thought by any of its manifestations in any country. But one can clearly see how attitudes and beliefs already highly questionable only need be coaxed a little before morphing into more bizarre ideas. For years in this country, odd myths floated around the LC Movement, claiming that Witness Lee had a “golden finger.” His Bible translation was a “gold bar.” He was called the “Acting God” and to many, at least in sentiment, his writings were on a par with the canonical writings of scripture. The Chinese proselytes who received his literature and visits from LSM representatives were not stupid. They quickly read between the lines, seeing that Lee was something of an elevated issue, and took it all an extra step.

An article on House-Church Networks in China edited by Tony Lambert, an expert on Christian groups in China and author of China’s Christian Millions (2006), provides information on the Little Flock and the Local Church in China. He notes that in general, older Little Flock leaders on the Mainland have kept to the milder ways laid down by Watchman Nee and denounced Lee’s teachings as divisive, even heretical. He also pointed out that “the Shouters have proved a fertile seed-bed for more extreme cults such as the Established King, The Lord God Cult and Eastern Lightning.” Kupfer adds, “Within some branches of the “Shouters” Li [W. Lee] has been worshipped as the second person of the Trinity, replacing Christ.” (2009).

http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-...chapter-15.htm

In other areas such as India, a more patient approach was used. Standing Christian assemblies were received as fellows, and their material was respected, as was their leadership. Gradually, however, LSM materials and practices were introduced, "positive" members were identified and leveraged, especially among leadership, and eventually the flock was taken over.

We continued fellowshipping together. Soon they came with some photocopies of some portions of Witness Lee’s writings and gave each one of us a copy. They asked each one to read a sentence. Then every one started telling amen. First, I didn’t take it seriously. I thought about many bible study sessions where we give photocopy of notes or main points. Soon it became a regular affair. Now our meetings started with 15 to 20-stanza hymn from a hymnbook that LSM brothers carried, that was dull and had confusing words. After singing, we started reading the stanzas one by one and they all together told amen. Then we read Witness Lees Book photocopy and said amen for every sentence. Soon, I sensed some trouble. Others in the meeting also sensed trouble in the way we are moving.

We asked the brothers from LSM why we should read only Witness Lees writings, why not other some other Christian authors books? We told them we need to listen the voice of Lord that lead us to a holy living rather than study something someone wrote long ago. We asked them to study Witness Lees writings privately and not in general meetings. We encouraged them to share from Bible what they learned during daily meditation. To my great surprise one brother from LSM told me that Witness Lees writing contain all that is spiritually required for a man. We were surprised because according to us Bible contain all that is required for a man spiritually. I felt undue importance is given to Witness Lee and Christ is pushed to background. This was done in a manner very difficult to detect.

http://www.thethreadofgold.com/Feedback--India.html

Warning: the devil will even use the Bible to usurp the Christian church! Here, one can clearly see the effects of this usurpation process in that fellowship and mutuality were rejected, men were elevated, gifts and callings were suppressed, the Scripture was put toward human ends, and Christ either receded to the background or got distorted into someone's cultural image(s). In China it was rapid and open, in India it was gradual and initially covered by a kind of pseudo-fellowship. But in both cases the result was the same. The flock no longer belonged to Christ but to a ministry.

[HERn]

Holy moley! At tonight's deacon's meeting a fellow deacon led the devotional with a quote from WL! After his homily I apologized for pouring cold water on the devotional, but i said that I had read hundreds of things by WL and consider him to be a false teacher. The deacon said WL was a friend and disciple of WN. I said WN is probably safe, but that they should be careful with WL. What say ye?

[UntoHim]

Hey, maybe this guy is reading our forum. By chance, was the quote from last weeks "Witness Wednesday"? Tomorrow is "Watchman Wednesday"...let us know if he quotes from Nee next week!

-

[HERn]

Funny thing about the WL quote was that instead of using God the word Yahweh was used. I've never found that word in WL writings. The brother deacon is strongly influenced by the SDA movement, so I assume he got the quote as second hand.

[OBW]

HERn,

While there is definitely a difference in Lee and Nee, there is also evidence that Nee was early-on enamored with his personal knowledge, abilities, and unique position with God. His quite lengthy tome, The Spiritual Man (also now believed to be heavily lifted from another) includes several prefaces (since he wrote it in pieces over time). In at least one, he essentially says that no one else could have seen what God showed him.

He was essentially a kid at that time. Virtually unschooled in the Bible. Or more correctly self-schooled.

I used to think that his inner-life books were probably OK and his ecclesiological books were questionable. Since then I have read Sit Walk Stand again and find it to be the underpinnings of what Lee eventually more strongly referred to as "wait for more dispensing." Not truly bad, but I have to say off the mark of the meaning of the book of Ephesians.

Nee was a master of misdirect. His works begin by making bold declarations of things that might or might not be true. But they are phrased in such a way that you take them as true and then read on. Sometimes that might not be a real problem. Sometimes it is. Maybe he really didn't mean the kind of "just be saved and sit around no taking any action on it until you feel stronger" that Lee very clearly espoused in his dispensing teachings. But the implication is there in the whole idea that you first sit. Do nothing.

I say this because his way of directing the thinking in his ecclesiological books is clearly manipulative. He wants to change a word in a passage so he says that his choice is a synonym and just changes it. The way he says it forces you to accept him as an honest guy and go with him or declare him a liar and reject him. Unfortunately, most who open his books are already under the assumption that he is an honest guy, so he is assumed to be correct. So when you find "power" in the scripture, you should simply change it to "authority" because he said they were the same.

Did anyone actually think about whether power = authority? It is obvious that there are too many examples of authority with no power, and power with no authority to accept that as true. But he then rephrased several verses, including "for Thine is the kingdom and the authority and the glory forever, amen."

I would not deny that His is the authority. But it does not say authority there. It says power and they are not the same.

But it was part of the setup for a way of thinking that was then going to help you follow him wherever he wanted to take you.

He got saved at 17 and was publishing his own Christian newsletter two years later. He could read at an unheard of speed. And he could piece things together from it. The question is whether his overlay for analysis was valid and where did he get it? No known source other than himself and his past learning.

Do I trust Nee?

No. I believe that (at least early on) he thought he was doing a good thing. But I am not so sure that he was ever a worthy teacher of anything Christian.

Even when it seems benign, to quote Han Solo "I've got a bad feeling about this."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

Since then I have read Sit Walk Stand again and find it to be the underpinnings of what Lee eventually more strongly referred to as "wait for more dispensing."

I don't have Sit, Walk, Stand anymore so I can't check it for the characteristics you described. But from memory I recall the progression as being (1) We know our position in Christ (Sit), (2) From that position of sitting (resting in the knowledge of what God has done and who he has made us) we begin to live for Christ (Walk), (3) Having learned to live for Christ based on what God has done we can then resist the enemy as warriors (Stand). So a longer title for the book could be Know and Rest in What God has Done, Live by What God has Done, Fight by What God has Done.

I see nothing wrong, in principle, with this view.

I've always felt your objection to Lee's "wait on dispensing" was a net throw too broadly. Although I agree in principle with what you say, I don't believe that is what he preached. What I remember him preaching is that nothing we do in ourselves is worth much, i.e. if we try walk before sitting, if we try to do things with our own strength, we will fail. This doesn't promote passivity or waiting for strength, it promotes acting based on what God has done and what he has made us.

I'm not challenging you aggressively. Just discussing because I know people are watching.

[NewManLiving]

For years now I have researched the history of Witness Lee's personal living and quite honestly I see him repeating the same mistakes decade after decade, with increasing consequences. Where was the "dispensing" in his own life? Where is the dispensing in the lives of his disciples? They are the same year after year. They just look older and harder and tell others how to live - like the Pharisees. They equate dispensing (if there is such a thing) with more knowledge. There is no early Lee or latter Lee - he was the same Lee his whole life, only older and more desperate

[HERn]

Being post-Recovery I am very sceptical of religious gurus like a 19/year old WN who thought he had some kind of deeper insight to the Christian life, and I have completely thrown out that greedy false teacher WL. A diffefent deacon at the deacon's meeting told me he was reading WN The Spiritual Man, and Sit, Walk and Stand. He's of Chinese descent but was born in America. He is young, I warned him about WL, but I need to warn him about WN. Does anyone know about any analysis of WN writings? And finally, there is a other brother who told me he is going to the Christians on Campus bible study. So, there are three brothers that are touching either WN, or WL or Christians on campus. What's up with that?

[HERn]

My wife just showed me where on Facebook a new college girl in our church liked the Christians on Campus club. She is going to talk to the girl's mother. Their family is in our church.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by OBW

Did anyone actually think about whether power = authority? It is obvious that there are too many examples of authority with no power, and power with no authority to accept that as true.

I just thought I'd add something here. You are quite right. In politics we learnt about the differences between legitimacy, power and authority.

Legitimacy is basically being accepted as a ruler. For instance if you are elected in a truely democratic system (or if you are the son of a king), you have legitimacy. Power is the blunt force. The ability to change the behaviour of others. Suppose Russia invaded the Ukraine. They could force the Ukrainians into certain actions. Authority is the right to rule. The difference between this and legitimacy isn't always so clear. As far as I understand it, authority is more of a legal definition whereas legitimacy is about the overall perception.

Obviously the three concepts build on each other. To have a stable system you need all three.

So yes, if the military were to stage a coup in the US, then they will have the power. If they enact martial law, they will have the authority. If there is nothing in the constitution for the eventuality of the coup, they cannot enact martial law and therefore cannot have the authority. And they won't have the legitimacy if the population did not support the coup. But they can have legitimacy if the nation supported it even if the constitution does not.

It wasn't my intention to get political here. I basically just want to say that you are right and that "small" differences can and do matter.

C. S. Lewis in his autobiography, Surprised by Joy talked about God's might (or power) and his authority quite poetically in my opinion. He basically says that if God were to lose his power, he would still have the authority - even if He could not enact it. Here's an excerpt:

"Of course as I have said, the matter is more complicated than that. The primal and necessary Being, the Creator, has sovereignty de facto as well as de jure. He has the power as well as the kingdom and the glory. But the de jure sovereignty was made known to me before the power, the right before the might. And for this I am thankful. I think it is well, even now, sometimes to say to ourselves, “God is such that if (per impossibile) his power could vanish and His other attributes remain, so that the supreme right were forever robbed of the supreme might, we should still owe Him precisely the same kind and degree of allegiance as we now do…"

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't have Sit, Walk, Stand anymore so I can't check it for the characteristics you described. But from memory I recall the progression as being (1) We know our position in Christ (Sit), (2) From that position of sitting (resting in the knowledge of what God has done and who he has made us) we begin to live for Christ (Walk), (3) Having learned to live for Christ based on what God has done we can then resist the enemy as warriors (Stand). So a longer title for the book could be Know and Rest in What God has Done, Live by What God has Done, Fight by What God has Done.

I see nothing wrong, in principle, with this view.

I've always felt your objection to Lee's "wait on dispensing" was a net throw too broadly. Although I agree in principle with what you say, I don't believe that is what he preached. What I remember him preaching is that nothing we do in ourselves is worth much, i.e. if we try walk before sitting, if we try to do things with our own strength, we will fail. This doesn't promote passivity or waiting for strength, it promotes acting based on what God has done and what he has made us.

I'm not challenging you aggressively. Just discussing because I know people are watching.

I believe that Lee's "wait on dispensing" was an excuse to just live a failing life and it is OK because we aren't supposed to try, but only do once you have enough dispensing. It was an excuse for sin.

As for Sit Walk Stand, someone decided to go through it in a Sunday School class several years ago so I got to reread it. And while your characterization is at least mostly accurate, I found that the time for "sitting" was not simply a state that you move on from because you are in Christ, but was (in a very roundabout way) a stopover that you sort of needed to be in for a period so that you could then walk.

While not as blatant, in hindsight it was a little like saying (in Spiritual Authority) that you should always know who in the room is the most spiritual person and submit to them. And while he never said that he was always the most spiritual person in any room that included him, that was his implication indirectly gleaned from other statements.

No, it wasn't as obvious as that example, but it stuck out to me as I read through it. That was actually where I first began to wonder if Nee's inner-life books were really as great as everyone thought they were. I did not interject any questions on these things at the time, but the wheels started turning.

And it was the introduction to Nee's books in early 72 that set us up for a later introduction to Lee at the end of 72.

And when you speak it in terms of "if you try to walk before sitting" it really stands out to me. It would seem that if Jesus said to obey his commandments, then if you think you are following him, then you should be obeying. If you are coming to understand who Christ is and believe in him, you should be obeying. Or starting to.

The gospels provided no lag between facing Jesus and either obeying or turning away. That is not there. And just because you can overlay that idea into Ephesians doesn't mean that it is true. In a number of Paul's epistles he went to some lengths to tell them why they should be obedient in certain ways. He did not suggest that they should spend time studying it, and when they had it figured out, then obey. He didn't even suggest that they should go become crucified with Christ before getting with the program.

No. He said "I am crucified . . . and the life I now live . . . ." He didn't then say "so you go be/become crucified with Christ." He was not writing to the unsaved. He was writing to the church. So the command was "get with it" not "put it off until you have a good grasp of it."

I honestly think that the whole concept of "doing it in Christ" is at least partly a misunderstanding. Since Christ said to do it and Paul may have said some whys, but then said to do it, I am not sure that for the Christian there is any such thing as not being in Christ. We have turned this "in Christ" concept into an excuse for not trying. For not stepping out to do as commanded.

For the Christian, it should not matter whether I had a "quiet time" this morning when it comes to obedience. It should not matter whether I prayed for a long time, or for a short time; contemporaneously or a written prayer.

Or not at all.

If I, a Christian, am taking the step to obey the commands of the one I serve, how do you or anyone else declare it to be "not IN Christ"?

So is "in Christ" something that is on and off like a light switch? Or like something you have to conjure up? Or if the scripture says that we are "in Christ" is that a fact that cannot be erased by lack of "morning watch"?

And this is not just a LCM problem. It is talked of (in different terms) among many evangelicals. Not all, but many.

So . . . .

Define "in Christ" in a way that is true to the scripture from which it must have been derived and that stands in the way of a Christian having the requirement to obey. Or more correctly demands that he not even try to obey.

[HERn]

What a blessing to have real elders sheepherding my soul. I've asked elders in my real local church to pray for my son's marriage and my daughter's social problems and I see progress and hope. Dear praying LC saints are your elders shepherds or LSM hirelings?

[SteVee]

Originally Posted by OBW

Did anyone actually think about whether power = authority? It is obvious that there are too many examples of authority with no power, and power with no authority to accept that as true. But he then rephrased several verses, including "for Thine is the kingdom and the authority and the glory forever, amen."

I would not deny that His is the authority. But it does not say authority there. It says power and they are not the same.

Mt 6:13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Power in this verse is dynamis; that is force, or strength of force.

Ephesians 6:12 ... powers... " exousia is used. It is the power of position; that is authority to command or direct force.

A human illustration is a general has exousia. His army has dynamis.

God possesses both. As Creator He has the right of authoritative position over His creation. As Omnipotent God he is the source of all dynamis.

The use of the Englishman's Greek concordance would help you see all of the verses that use each of these words so that you can adjust your thinking to match the Scripture.

You can also use the Blue Letter Bible app. Click on a verse, and select "inter linear/concordance, select the particular English/Greek word, then scroll down to see all of the verses where that Greek word is used and how it is alternatively translated. To avoid isogesis, you would want to open a Bible and prayerfully read the entire passage each verse occurs in to capture the context.

This will give enough of God's perspective so you can confidently receive that which is insightful and true from any preacher/author and reject that which is other than God's truth.

Focusing on whether Lee or Nee is right or wrong here or there is a losing battle (IMHO). It sounds like an emotional negative reaction, which never leads positively to the truth of God.

I empathize because I've been injured in the name of Christ, but I know that I am not healthy and free until my thoughts are predominantly on what God wants to say and do in my life today, rather than on yesterday's injuries. The same is true of an past hurtful event, regardless of the source.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by SteVee

Ephesians 6:12 ... powers... " exousia is used. It is the power of position; that is authority to command or direct force.

Power of position is either something conferred by another, exerted by force, or granted by consent. But no matter how closely you think you can link power and authority, they are never the same thing.

Power is the strength, energy, etc., to do what is intended or required. Authority is the right to determine that it is to be done. You can have one without the other. And it can be problematic. But the fact that they are both required for proper use of the other does not confer a state of identity upon them.

Originally Posted by SteVee

A human illustration is a general has exousia. His army has dynamis.

God possesses both. . . .

Examples prove nothing. And there are contrary examples.

If the Supreme Court makes a decision about something, can they actually enforce it? They have the authority to make the judgment.

But they have no power to do anything. It takes the strength of other parts of the government to exercise that authority through its power. And there is said to have been at least one time that a ruling was so egregious in the sitting president's eyes that he simply said something like "well, let them enforce it."

Gangsters have power and effectively run things in some places. But they never have true authority. And the local authority, while retaining that right, too often lacks the power to make their decisions stick.

The problem with the beginning chapter of Spiritual Authority (aka Authority and Submission) is that it dismisses the significant difference between the two, and finding no compelling support for the kind of authority that was to be discussed, changed occurrences of "power" into "authority" as if they were synonyms. After making those changes, then the altered verse supported the next block in the thesis. But without that change, it does not.

So tell me, if the word actually used can't get you there, on what basis do you think that providing a different word should be any better? Either way, it is an exercise in having an answer and trying to find a way to make it work. So if the scripture doesn't support it as written, rewrite it at will. Just be sure to claim that it is not really a rewrite.

Nee was a hack. I honestly believe that he believed he was doing God's work in it. But if that means changing the Bible to get there, then it is evident that his honest belief was in error.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by SteVee

Focusing on whether Lee or Nee is right or wrong here or there is a losing battle (IMHO).
e.

I think it's important to label Lee as a false teacher, because I think he is.

[SteVee]

Originally Posted by OBW

Power of position is either something conferred by another, exerted by force, or granted by consent. But no matter how closely you think you can link power and authority, they are never the same thing...

I was addressing power as it is revealed in the Scripture. I am an outsider to the LC, so I can't address how authority has been abused in the LC. From what I've heard here, Witness Lee was disqualified from Biblical authority as a church leader according to Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 a long time ago and his writings after the disqualifying events should be considered dubious. Such is also the case when Nee demanded allegiance to himself to return to leadership in Shanghai(?) after having been away in London.

Romans 13 addresses exousia speaking of evil civil authorities. There is no authority apart from what God ordains. That doesn't mean that there aren't bullies, thugs and warlords that exercise power violently but have no legitimate position of authority from God.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by SteVee

I was addressing power as it is revealed in the Scripture. I am an outsider to the LC, so I can't address how authority has been abused in the LC.

And the particular discussion was about how Nee used (or misused) scripture to establish teachings/doctrines that were not actually supported by the scripture. The fact that God has power and authority does not make them synonymous. Neither the fact that they are at least somewhat needed together to really accomplish things.

To drive on the freeway, I need a car, and gas. Gas does nothing by itself. Neither does a car. But if the discussion is about vehicles but all you can find is descriptions of gas, then claiming they are synonyms does not make changing the discussion to be about gas any more meaningful relating to vehicles.

Not a very good example. But I think you can see what I mean.

How the scripture uses power and authority does not appear to infer that they are synonyms or that one could substitute for the other. And if that is the case, then Nee's biblical exegesis (taking from the Bible) turns into eisigesis (sp?) or reading into the bible. Or in Nee's case, forcing a reading onto the Bible that is not there for the purpose of getting a different result out of it.

I still think he believed he was right. Not just being devious. But that creates a whole different series of questions about him that no one has really asked.

[JJ]

This discussion of "power" and "authority" in Nee's teachings may be one of the most important discussions we can have, as this may be the crux of many problems that have manifested themselves over many years in TLR.

God has all the power and authority, and ultimately through His Son He laid it down so He could raise the dead, redeem sinners, build up a spotless bride for His Son, wipe away tears and pain, heal, water, and feed in a new heaven and new earth and all it's inhabitants for His glory forever. What are we doing with what little power and authority we think we have?

[HERn]

Last week I invited two local church brothers (lower case "b") that I I considered friends to my house for a beer. We r moving and I wanted to tell them that I loved them and was going on with the Lord and was sorry that I had to stop all contact with them as I was exiting the LC. I told them that I did not mean to hurt them, but that me and my family had gone through a traumatic experience. I was hoping for some "blessing", but they never said they loved me or wished me well on my new path. Oh well, I offered closure and asked for forgiveness, they were polite in the LC type of way. They have moved on and so have I.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Last week I invited two local church brothers (lower case "b") that I I considered friends to my house for a beer. We r moving and I wanted to tell them that I loved them and was going on with the Lord and was sorry that I had to stop all contact with them as I was exiting the LC. I told them that I did not mean to hurt them, but that me and my family had gone through a traumatic experience. I was hoping for some "blessing", but they never said they loved me or wished me well on my new path. Oh well, I offered closure and asked for forgiveness, they were polite in the LC type of way. They have moved on and so have I.

As an old friend said to me, "there's no love in Laodicea."

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

What are we doing with what little power and authority we think we have?

JJ,

This is so timely, and one of the most profound things I've ever read. Thank you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by HERn

Last week I invited two local church brothers (lower case "b") that I I considered friends to my house for a beer. We r moving and I wanted to tell them that I loved them and was going on with the Lord and was sorry that I had to stop all contact with them as I was exiting the LC. I told them that I did not mean to hurt them, but that me and my family had gone through a traumatic experience. I was hoping for some "blessing", but they never said they loved me or wished me well on my new path. Oh well, I offered closure and asked for forgiveness, they were polite in the LC type of way. They have moved on and so have I.

People don't really have friends in the local church. You considered them your friends, they consider you a brother, not a friend. That is not to say that a brother is worse than a friend, a brother is more than a friend. But a brother is not the same as a friend. The kind of love that is between Christian brothers is something that does not have to be expressed verbally. It is more of a good will kind of love than love between family members.

You know that they do not consider leaving them as just moving to a different address. If they cared about you may have hurt their feelings and they did not feel like giving you a "blessing".

[HERn]

I believe yours is a doctrine of demons. I choose to believe the healthy word of God rather than the twisted teachings of Lee.

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Luke 12:4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who ...
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who
kill the body and after that can do no more. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/12-4.htm - 18k

Luke 15:6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors ...
and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and
says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep ...
//biblehub.com/luke/15-6.htm - 18k

Luke 15:9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and ...
And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together
and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin ...
//biblehub.com/luke/15-9.htm - 18k

Luke 16:9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for ...
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when
it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/16-9.htm - 18k

Luke 23:12 That day Herod and Pilate became friends--before this ...
..... That day Herod and Pilate became friends--before this they had been enemies. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/23-12.htm - 17k

Luke 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and ...
You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives
and friends, and they will put some of you to death. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/21-16.htm - 18k

Acts 19:31 Even some of the officials of the province, friends of ...
Even some of the officials of the province, friends of Paul, sent him
a message begging him not to venture into the theater. ...
//biblehub.com/acts/19-31.htm - 18k

John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does ...
... his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything
that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. ...
//biblehub.com/john/15-15.htm - 19k

Luke 7:6 So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house ...
... He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof ...
//biblehub.com/luke/7-6.htm - 19k

Acts 24:23 He ordered the centurion to keep Paul under guard but ...
He ordered the centurion to keep Paul under guard but to give him some
freedom and permit his friends to take care of his needs. ...
//biblehub.com/acts/24-23.htm - 19k

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

People don't really have friends in the local church.

There's a reason for this. It was part of Lee's design.

It was all too evident during the recent rounds of lawsuits and quarantines in the GLA.

It's simple. It cuts down on the losses during their regular "storms."

If the folks next to you leave for conscience' sake, they don't want the exodus to include you too.

[HERn]

I bumped into another brother today and it was so good to see him. He's doing well, but not married yet. I felt that I blessed him, but no blessing in return. Psychologically and sociologically it's traumatic to leave the LC. I want them to understand that I have not left my savior Jesus Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I want them to understand that I have not left my savior Jesus Christ.

Let us go with Him, outside the camp, a la Heb 13:13. It's a lonely path, often, but it's the only path.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

I want them to understand that I have not left my savior Jesus Christ.

They know that in their hearts. It's their minds that are the problem. Jesus was misunderstood many times, too. But those who were meant to eventually came around to him. Including you and me.

I know it hurts to have those close to you turn their backs on you. But you have one Friend who won't.

[HERn]

I recently texted an absolute brother about the death of a non-LC brother and his prayer was "Lord Jesus please receive our brother." Is this creepy or what?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

I recently texted an absolute brother about the death of a non-LC brother and his prayer was "Lord Jesus please receive our brother." Is this creepy or what?

It's creepy.

[HERn]

I just read something by OBW on another thread that convinced me that I need to throw out the LSM false teaching that only the LSM LC being blinded brothers and elders are able to "see the Body". Being able to "see the Body" is a WL rubric that determines if you have standing in WLs church. The LSM LC elders and being blinded Co-workers "see" the Body as being those believers in churches not quarantined by LSM and receiving only LSM literature to use during their services. If they really "saw the body" they would embrace their brothers and sisters in Christ down the street and in ages past. For the deluded and deceived LSM followers only LSM believers are "the Body". Their seeing of the body of Christ only includes less than 1 percent of the true body of Christ. This is false teaching that leads to spiritual death.

[HERn]

I think the leaders in the LC are agnostic in that they cannot believe that the Holy Spirit is coordinating, leading, blessing, and advancing God's will on the earth independent of the being blinded brothers of LSM and their elders.

[OBW]

I continue to occasionally post on threads like this my opinion on the whole Nee/Lee/LSM thing. Drop it all. If it is real, you will find it somewhere reliable.

I did not enter the LRC with no Christian knowledge. So it is not like I first heard anything sound in the LRC. I will admit that there was real teaching there. And therefore it is true that those whose first real encounter with Christ was in the LRC did learn some of their truth there — along with some serious non-truth. So it is harder to tell them to throw everything out and start over. But even they need to understand that anything that is real is found outside the LRC, and therefore is not peculiar to their teachings. So unless you are trying to rebuild your Christian faith in a "me and my bible" vacuum, it is safe to ignore what you learned in the LRC and expect that what is sound and true will return and fill the void without including the nonsense that was the reason that the LRC existed as a separate thing.

As I look back at my time in the LRC, I have concluded that Nee/Lee taught me nothing of spiritual importance. And the LRC is all about Nee/Lee teachings. Therefore I am happy to have nothing to do with the LRC as a Christian institution.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

I continue to occasionally post on threads like this my opinion on the whole Nee/Lee/LSM thing. Drop it all. If it is real, you will find it somewhere reliable.

I did not enter the LRC with no Christian knowledge. So it is not like I first heard anything sound in the LRC. I will admit that there was real teaching there. And therefore it is true that those whose first real encounter with Christ was in the LRC did learn some of their truth there — along with some serious non-truth. So it is harder to tell them to throw everything out and start over. But even they need to understand that anything that is real is found outside the LRC, and therefore is not peculiar to their teachings. So unless you are trying to rebuild your Christian faith in a "me and my bible" vacuum, it is safe to ignore what you learned in the LRC and expect that what is sound and true will return and fill the void without including the nonsense that was the reason that the LRC existed as a separate thing.

As I look back at my time in the LRC, I have concluded that Nee/Lee taught me nothing of spiritual importance. And the LRC is all about Nee/Lee teachings. Therefore I am happy to have nothing to do with the LRC as a Christian institution.

Thanks OBW, I guess I'm throwing things out as they become aware to me. my impression of Evangelical, Drake, and now Steel is that they are not typical forum members or even brothers who can be trusted. I think they are LSM operatives working to prevent the poisoning of the FTTA students who read this forum. Christ's church has been present for thousands of years, the WN and WL denomination is relatively new.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by HERn

...my impression of Evangelical, Drake, and now Steel is that they are not typical forum members or even brothers who can be trusted. I think they are LSM operatives working to prevent the poisoning of the FTTA students who read this forum. Christ's church has been present for thousands of years, the WN and WL denomination is relatively new.

Oh Lord...

My name is Joseph C Steel... You can find me on Facebook... Participating on many FB forums... Speaking exactly what you will find me speaking here... And what I speak to brothers and sisters who attend local church meetings here in Austin.

I have never been to Anaheim (the campus there), and have no intention of becoming an FTTA student.

I think that there is a lot of folly religion the direction of "the brothers" in Anaheim try to impose on the various local churches, and have even said as much to elders here in Austin.

And I'm saying this to you... Not because I feel I have to... But because I am saddened that your first thought is not to fellowship with someone so that you may gain better understanding of where they are coming from and presently stand... But to judge someone and reach a conclusion regarding them... Out of your ignorance.

And a disposition of holding to and abiding in ignorance is that which will always negatively affect the building up of the body of Christ.

[HERn]

Hi brother, I'm willing to fellowship. If you PM me with your phone number i will call you. I am very simple, trying to survive. But I will speak the truth in love.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi brother, I'm willing to fellowship. If you PM me with your phone number i will call you. I am very simple, trying to survive. But I will speak the truth in love.

Thank you my brother. If you contact me on Facebook we can have fellowship on the private messaging. Or we can just fellowship here on this and other threads, or by PM.

BTW...

Fellowship is not something we should be "...willing..." to do.

Fellowship is actually a normal outworking of our abiding in and living out Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9... "God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

1 Corinthians 10:16... "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the fellowship of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the fellowship of the body of Christ?"

2 Corinthians 13:14... "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

1 John 1:7... "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from every sin."

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Steel

Thank you my brother. If you contact me on Facebook we can have fellowship on the private messaging. Or we can just fellowship here on this and other threads, or by PM.

BTW...

Fellowship is not something we should be "...willing..." to do.

Fellowship is actually a normal outworking of our abiding in and living out Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9... "God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

1 Corinthians 10:16... "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the fellowship of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the fellowship of the body of Christ?"

2 Corinthians 13:14... "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

1 John 1:7... "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from every sin."

Actually fellowship is mutual, if it flows from the more absolute LSM brother to the lesser absolute brother, but not from the lower brother to the higher brother, then I don't think it is fellowship.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Actually fellowship is mutual, if it flows from the more absolute LSM brother to the lesser absolute brother, but not from the lower brother to the higher brother, then I don't think it is fellowship.

Brother HERn, did you live thru the so-called "New Way?"

How many times did we see and hear about those who merely "loved the ministry" get taken to task by zealot operatives from LSM "absolute for the ministry." Not absolute enough? Many were discarded by the way side.

Lest we think this merely a blip in time, a decade ago in the Midwest, LSM sent their thugs to numerous LC's training dissidents to disrupt the church meetings, create divisions in the churches, and file lawsuits to seize church assets.

They even sued the saints for the church's *name* and website addresses.

The following day LSM resumed their attacks on "degraded Christianity" from the podium and the printing press for being divisive and behaving just like they do.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by HERn

Actually fellowship is mutual, if it flows from the more absolute LSM brother to the lesser absolute brother, but not from the lower brother to the higher brother, then I don't think it is fellowship.

Fellowship is something all born again believers can enter into if they choose to.

If one chooses not to do so that is their decision which is between them and the Lord.

In today's society, fellowship is considered to be the exchanging of thoughts between people... In and through and environment of mutual respect and receiving of these thoughts by each of the participants.

But this is not what scripture tells us fellowship is.

Unfortunately, as with many words and concepts that are found in scripture, fellowship is yet one more word/concept that has become corrupted and therefore misunderstood.

This is what true fellowship is...

The "...growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love..." that can only take place when/as believers are "...holding to truth in love..."... Which can only take place when/as the Son of God is revealed to believers... And believers apprehend this revelation.

Anything that is not the above... Is not the fellowship of the body of Christ.

Anything that is the above... Is the fellowship of the body of Christ.

Hallelujah that all born again believers... Weak or strong... Comely or uncomely... Mature or immature... Have a part in this.

Because we all have Christ in us.

And His love working and operating in us.

And His love is the center/source of the fellowship of His one body... The church.

[HERn]

This ain't aunty's Southern Baptist Church!

As part of my recovering from the Recovery we have met with several different groups. We are currently in a Southern Baptist Church while taking care of a relative. Tonight I just came home from an event where I volunteered as guest check-in and parking. It was the Tebow Foundation's Night to Shine. It is a prom for special needs folks and our Southern Baptist Church joined a United Methodist Church to sponsor the event. Our young Southern Baptist pastor was dancing on church grounds in a church building with special needs young adults! Oh! The horror! As a kid my aunt would haul me and my cousins to the local baptist church where the pastor preached hell-fire and brimstone. Kind of like healing to my soul to help take care of these special people. I also got to talk to several brothers and make some new friends. In my men's group we are reading "All the Places to Go: How Will You Know" by John Ortberg. He gave some examples of people summing their lives up with only six words. Here's what he thought some famous bible characters might have said. I'm quoting him.

Abraham: "Left Ur. Had a baby. Still Laughing."
Jonah: "No. Storm. Overboard. Whale. Regurgitated. Yes."
Moses: "Burning bush. Stone tablets. Charlton Heston."
Adam: "Eyes opened, but can't find a home."
Noah: "Hated the rain, loved the rainbow."
Esau: "At least the stew was good."
Esther: "Eye candy. Mordecai handy. Israel dandy."
Mary: "Manger. Pain. Joy. Cross. Pain. Joy."
Zacchaeus: "Climbed sycamore tree. Short, poorer, happier."
Good Samaritan: "I came, I saw, I stopped."
Paul: "Damascus. Blind. Suffer. Write. Change World."
Here's mine: "I thought it would be easier."

Christ is still my life. I'm finding Him in more places than I expected.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Steel

Fellowship is something all born again believers can enter into if they choose to.

If one chooses not to do so that is their decision which is between them and the Lord.

In today's society, fellowship is considered to be the exchanging of thoughts between people... In and through and environment of mutual respect and receiving of these thoughts by each of the participants.

But this is not what scripture tells us fellowship is.


Unfortunately, as with many words and concepts that are found in scripture, fellowship is yet one more word/concept that has become corrupted and therefore misunderstood.

This is what true fellowship is...

The "...growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love..." that can only take place when/as believers are "...holding to truth in love..."... Which can only take place when/as the Son of God is revealed to believers... And believers apprehend this revelation.

Anything that is not the above... Is not the fellowship of the body of Christ.

Anything that is the above... Is the fellowship of the body of Christ.

Hallelujah that all born again believers... Weak or strong... Comely or uncomely... Mature or immature... Have a part in this.

Because we all have Christ in us.

And His love working and operating in us.

And His love is the center/source of the fellowship of His one body... The church.

The quote above fronts such a vast sea of ignorance that one hardly knows where to start addressing it. I can see that Steel is comfortable swimming in such waters, but for the sake of the readers I’ll try a few comments.

First of all, if you read Ohio’s post (#928), you'll see what 'fellowship' in the LSM churches actually consists of. As Ray Graver put it to Bill Mallon, “We do what we are told”. That was in the hey-day of Philip Lee as the office, but today it’s little changed: Do what you are told. I do appreciate RG’s candor. And it's not coincidental that he's long-time "right hand man" to the current LSM president.

Second, regarding ‘mutual respect’ which you say society values. A little of that in the LSM would go a long way. Where is love, if there's no respect? There is no mutuality in the LSM cosmos. It's all top-down fiat. Fellowship, by any conventional meaning, simply doesn’t exist.

Now to holding the truth: When John the Baptist came out of the desert, and they asked him, “Are you the Christ [Messiah]?”, and “Are you the Prophet?”, those concepts were formed and passing through the populace. There was a back-drop of cultural expectations. The dialog of the gospels didn't occur in a cultural or conceptual vacuum.

But the dialog was largely lost, and so people like John Calvin and John Nelson Darby and Watchman Nee and Witness Lee who looked at scripture in a vacuum and said “this means that” and "this proves that" were free to form their own unique, subjective, and personal conclusions and impose these on their (usually captive) flocks.

In the past 50 years there's arisen a field of inquiry called Second Temple Judaism(s), which studies the culture(s) in which the gospels arose. These scholars and students are still ignorant, as are we all, but they're making some small progress. See, for example, the series "Discoveries in the Judean Desert". But Lee would have none of that: he was deliberately and proudly ignorant. “I haven't learned anything from anyone in 45 years”, he told us. He was God’s Oracle, and didn’t need to humble himself and learn. Watchman Nee had already read all the good spiritual books, right? Nothing left to read - nothing (besides Nee) worth reading since 1925. What arrogant presumption!

https://global.oup.com/academic/cont...cc=us&lang=en&

The epistle to the Ephesians was written by Paul with a back-drop of Jewish culture and understanding. It was written to Gentiles. But look at the “both” of Ephesians 2:16 – it is both Jew and Gentile. The whole section of vv 11 thru 22 amplifies this.

But in the 100% Gentile Recovered Church promulgated by Lee, a word could mean anything he wanted. So the “Prophet” Jesus, as had been asked by the Jews to John, and referenced by Peter in Acts 3:22-23, and by Stephen in Acts 7:37. . . you know what Lee taught? That Jesus was “a prophet like Moses” because: a) he was human like Moses; and b) he prophesied like Moses! See, “You can all prophesy one by one”! That was his exposition! See the RecV footnotes in Deuteronomy 18:15-19.

And the Psalms: according to Lee some 70% of them were “fallen”. . . we could go on and on. Ridiculous teachings from an ignorant human imagination, received by the isolated and captive flock as oracles of God. What kind of ‘church’ is this? What kind of ‘fellowship’ is found, here? Absurd.

Brothers Lee and Steel may be far above me, assuming a resurrection from the dead, a judgment seat and a wedding feast (all of which I believe). But their ideas are absurd. Love cannot exist there. It has no room to breathe.

I'm not requesting a return to “Jewishness” in any shape or form; rather that we Gentiles humble ourselves and begin to appreciate what was lost. Slowly the Lord will return our portion: if we seek we will find. But if we arrogantly presume to have laid hold (see, e.g., “high peak truths” . . .) our blindness remains. The 'church' we create will look a lot like what Ohio testified of. The Imaginarium of one fallen human being. The King-dumb of Lee.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by aron

The quote above fronts such a vast sea of ignorance that one hardly knows where to start addressing it.

Well...

I see that in your vanity you have certainly attempted to give it the good 'ol attboy effort.

Let's see how you did...

Originally Posted by aron

I can see that Steel is comfortable swimming in such waters, but for the sake of the readers I’ll try a few comments.

In Christ Jesus I'm comfortable swimming in any waters... Including the waters found on this website.

Originally Posted by aron

First of all, if you read Ohio’s post (#928), you'll see what 'fellowship' in the LSM churches actually consists of.

Well...

Seeing that this week I participated in lunch fellowship with three believers who meet with the local church (three separate lunches)... And participate every day in fellowship with my wife who also meets with the local church... And just this morning participated in a wonderful Lord's Day meeting with around 60 other believers... I'd say that I have a pretty good idea of what fellowship within the local church here in Austin consists of.

But my actual current experience aside...

I fully understand your need to ignore my actual current experience and instead try and present the long past experience of someone else.

It's normal for those who hold to their offended feelings to do just that — live in the past.

But let's move on from my being able to speak in and out of my actual current experience... To what you have to say below...

Originally Posted by aron

As Ray Graver put it to Bill Mallon, “We do what we are told”..."

Nobody told me to meet with the three believers I had lunch with this week.

Nobody told me to meet with my wife.

Nobody told me to participate in this morning's meeting.

Nobody told me what to say when I stood up and prophesied for almost three minutes... Which is a minute longer than what is asked of us to limit ourselves to so that others can have time to share.

And I didn't see anyone telling the people who were enjoying what I was sharing that they had to enjoy my sharing.

But... Again... This is simply my... actual... current... experience that I am speaking from.

Let's go back to your presentation of a third parties long past experience.

Originally Posted by aron

That was in the hey-day of Philip Lee as the office,...

You mean 30 years ago.

You do realize that we're now in 2018... And not 1988, right.

Are you unable to find a more recent example?

Tell you what...

How about referencing my own actual current experience.

But nah... That would mean that you would be referencing the actual experience of someone who doesn't support the negativity that you hold so dearly to.

Originally Posted by aron

...but today it’s little changed: Do what you are told."

Can't say I've experienced that since I started meeting with the local church back in 2003.

But I can only speak for my actual experience in two localities.

How many are you speaking about from your own actual experience, aron?

Or does that even matter to you.

Originally Posted by aron

...I do appreciate RG’s candor. And it's not coincidental that he's long-time "right hand man" to the current LSM president.

You do realize that he is just... one... person, right.

Like in... just... one member of the body of Christ, right.

And that you do realize that there are other believers who meet with the local churches.

Or has this not occurred to you.

Originally Posted by aron

...Second, regarding ‘mutual respect’ which you say society values.

Actually...

I said no such thing... Which makes your above quoted statement dishonest.

This is what everyone reading this can see for themselves that I actually said...

"In today's society, fellowship is considered to be the exchanging of thoughts between people... In and through and environment of mutual respect and receiving of these thoughts by each of the participants."

See aron... Nothing above about "...society values...".

If you're going to be speaking about what people say/suggest... Try and be accurate/honest.

It's kind of what we're called to do as born again believers in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by aron

...A little of that in the LSM would go a long way.

Mutual respect is what scripture tells is is a good human expression.

But as you should know from your own experience... And as I know from my own experience... It's a work in progressive for all of us born again believers.

Originally Posted by aron

...Fact is... Where is love, if there's no respect?

Well... That's a great question.

"Can there be respect for each other, even just human respect, if there is no love?"

The answer is "Yes."

Humans can express a level of natural humanly generated respect for other humans... Without having even human love for these other humans... Are we can know this by our own daily life experiences.

But scripture tells us that this type of natural humanly generated respect is just vanity.

As is even our natural humanly generated love.

And scripture is all about the need for us to be transformed out of our natural humanity — where natural humanly generated things come out of — into humans who possess, abide in, and live out divine life... The divine life we receive when we are born again of the Spirit.

Originally Posted by aron

...There is no mutuality in the LSM cosmos. It's all top-down fiat. Fellowship, by any conventional meaning, simply doesn’t exist.

Thankfully... I don't expect there to be any.

And neither should anyone who is familiar with the reality scripture reveals expect there to be either.

Are you not familiar with the following scripture verse...

Mark 10:18... "And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One -- God."

Originally Posted by aron

...Now to holding the truth: When John the Baptist came out of the desert, and they asked him, “Are you the Christ [Messiah]?”, and “Are you the Prophet?”, those concepts were formed and passing through the populace. There was a back-drop of cultural expectations. The dialog of the gospels didn't occur in a cultural or conceptual vacuum.

Surely not... God's creation isn't a vacuum.

But just as surely we can know...

Romans 11:36... "Because out from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."

So sure... No vacuum...

But just as sure... God is in control.

And understanding this...

Who do you choose to look at...

"...back-drop of cultural expectations..."

Or...

God's economy.

Originally Posted by aron

...But the dialog was largely lost, and so people like John Calvin and John Nelson Darby and Watchman Nee and Witness Lee who looked at scripture in a vacuum and said “this means that” and "this proves that" were free to form their own unique, subjective, and personal conclusions and impose these on their (usually captive) flocks.

Really?

So then... I wonder how you see Paul.

The person who had no problem participating in the murders of believers in Christ Jesus.

Who then... "WHAM"... Suddenly did an about face and was empowered by God to go speak things that even the disciples who had been walking with Jesus had a hard time with.

Perhaps you haven't yet gained the full experience of the reality the following scripture verses reveal...

Lamentations 3:22-23... "It is Jehovah's lovingkindness that we are not consumed, For His compassions do not fail;... They are new every morning; Great is Your faithfulness."

That's... Every morning God's mercy and grace towards us is new.

Why would you think to take up space in yourself holding onto old stuff.

Originally Posted by aron

...In the past 50 years there's arisen a field of inquiry called Second Temple Judaism(s), which studies the culture(s) in which the gospels arose. These scholars and students are still ignorant, as are we all, but they're making some small progress. See, for example, the series "Discoveries in the Judean Desert". But Lee would have none of that: he was deliberately and proudly ignorant. “I haven't learned anything from anyone in 45 years”, he told us. He was God’s Oracle, and didn’t need to humble himself and learn. Watchman Nee had already read all the good spiritual books, right? Nothing left to read - nothing (besides Nee) worth reading since 1925. What arrogant presumption!

Aron... If you think Lee and Nee were foolish for thinking there was nothing more for them to learn... Then just simply choose not to be like them.

Which is actually what scripture tells us... Look after yourself... But do so in Christ.

Which includes not becoming offended by your perceived failings of others.

In the light of the above... I'm going to jump over some of the stuff you said and get to the following...

Originally Posted by aron

...I'm not requesting a return to “Jewishness” in any shape or form; rather that we Gentiles...

See... Stop right there...

In your above speaking is a huge error.

Why can I say that?

Because scripture tells us this...

Galatians 3:27-28... "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ... There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Are you in Christ, aron?

If so, then you can be neither Jew nor Gentile... Only Christ.

And if you don't see this... Then you are not seeing what Christ is doing.

Originally Posted by aron

...humble ourselves and begin to appreciate what was lost.

But this is not what scripture tells us... So again you are speaking in error.

Scripture tells us that what we need to be doing is only looking away unto Jesus...

Hebrews 12:2... "Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the ccross, despising the shame, and has sat down on the right hand of the throne of God."

And further... Scripture says nothing like what you've said below...

Originally Posted by aron

...Slowly the Lord will return our portion: if we seek we will find. But if we arrogantly presume to have laid hold (see, e.g., “high peak truths” . . .) our blindness remains. The 'church' we create will look a lot like what Ohio testified of. The Imaginarium of one fallen human being. The King-dumb of Lee.

Aron...

According to scripture...

What we should be seeking is in front of us... Not behind...

Philippians 3:13... "Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,..."

Aron... In love... I'll say to you... Almost all that you said above is only error.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

Here's mine: "I thought it would be easier."

Christ is still my life. I'm finding Him in more places than I expected.

Here's mine: "Word brought Spirit who revealed Son." At the core of the journey, there's nothing else. And everything else depends on it.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by HERn

Christ is still my life. I'm finding Him in more places than I expected.

Scripture tells us that "...All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being...", that the Lord is "...upholding and bearing all things by the word of His power,...", that "...the universe has been framed..." by Him, that "... So for sure Christ can be found in "...more places..." . . . But on the flip side... There's... "And Jehovah God called to the man and said to him, Where are you?"

See... Most believers are all about finding God where they want to find God... But not so many believers are for being found by God where God wants them to be.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Steel

Scripture tells us that "...All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being...", that the Lord is "...upholding and bearing all things by the word of His power,...", that "...the universe has been framed..." by Him, that "... So for sure Christ can be found in "...more places..." . . . But on the flip side... There's... "And Jehovah God called to the man and said to him, Where are you?"

See... Most believers are all about finding God where they want to find God... But not so many believers are for being found by God where God wants them to be.

And God wants you to be in "the Lord's Recovery," following Witness Lee ("as he follows the Lord").

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

And God wants you to be in "the Lord's Recovery," following Witness Lee ("as he follows the Lord").

Nope... I believe God wants me to meet with other believers and fellowship in and through Him... And wherever He leads me to do so, hopefully I won't get all offended in myself but just be humble and follow Him... Just as I believe I've been doing... And as I believe you and all born again believers should do as well.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Steel

Nope... I believe God wants me to meet with other believers and fellowship in and through Him... And wherever He leads me to do so, hopefully I won't get all offended in myself but just be humble and follow Him... Just as I believe I've been doing... And as I believe you and all born again believers should do as well.

So, is it possible that the Lord would ever legitimately lead someone (like myself) out of the group known as the Lord's Recovery?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

So, is it possible that the Lord would ever legitimately lead someone (like myself) out of the group known as the Lord's Recovery?

Absolutely... And I speak from my own experience.

We all can develop "camp mentality"; and when we do, the Lord needs to deal with this, and will, by bringing us of of the "camp" associated with the fallen mentality we're afflicted.

But, that understood... As we can also see in scripture... We are all, to one degree or another, very stiff-necked people... Very stubborn people who love to hold onto things according to our natural preferences... And how the Lord deals with this regarding each of us as individuals can, and often does, differ.

[HERn]

I'm getting long in the tooth. Thursday night we had two precious brothers I knew in 1971 over for dinner. Although in high school I worked as a custodian after school with the older brother who is now 70. He shared the Lord with me at work and the Spirit used h8s testimony to help lead me to Jesus. The s3cond brother at dinner is 65 and he called on the Lord at my home in my bedroom(back in 1971) with the first brother who is now 70. After dinner we fellowshiped and sang several hymns with 65 old guy playing guitar. I shared some LC hymns. Can't believe this Jesus freak (me) is over 60. We also watched some Jesus Culture videos and worshipped along with the current crop of "Jesus freaks". We were crazy lovers of Jesus, and still are!

[HERn]

It's a small world after all! Two Sunday's a month I serve on the security and greeting service. I'm one of two brothers who drive around the distant parking lots in a large golf cart with bench seats and give rides to older folks, late folks, moms with kids or whatever, and keep an eye out for things. Well, this morning about 30 minutes after the service started I turned into a parking lot and there was aN Asian brother getting out of his car and I offer him a ride. On the way I hear him say Lord Jesus. I dropped him off. About 15 m8nutes before the service ends the same brother comes out of the main entrance where I'm parked and I again offer him a ride. On the way I ask if he was from Taiwan and he says yes. I ask if he knows of WN and WL and he says yes Amen. We have some fellowship and I told him I was in the local church for awhile. He says amen and when I get to his car he introduced me as a local church brother to his wife, she says amen we are one body and I said amen we have the same Lord Jesus in us. We then said goodbye.

[HERn]

It's a small world after all! Two Sunday's a month I serve on the security and greeting service. I'm one of two brothers who drive around the distant parking lots in a large golf cart with bench seats and give rides to older folks, late folks, moms with kids or whatever, and keep an eye out for things. Well, this morning about 30 minutes after the service started I turned into a parking lot and there was aN Asian brother getting out of his car and I offer him a ride. On the way I hear him say Lord Jesus. I dropped him off. About 15 m8nutes before the service ends the same brother comes out of the main entrance where I'm parked and I again offer him a ride. On the way I ask if he was from Taiwan and he says yes. I ask if he knows of WN and WL and he says yes Amen. We have some fellowship and I told him I was in tears local church for awhile. He says amen and when I get to his car he introduced me as a local church brother to his wife, she says amen we are one body and I said amen we have the same Lord Jesus in us. We then said goodbye.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by HERn

On the way I ask if he was from Taiwan and he says yes. I ask if he knows of WN and WL and he says yes Amen. We have some fellowship and I told him I was in the local church for awhile. He says amen and when I get to his car he introduced me as a local church brother to his wife, she says amen we are one body and I said amen we have the same Lord Jesus in us. We then said goodbye.

Amen... We are one body... The Lord is simply revealing this reality to us day by day.

[HERn]

My daughter-in-law won't let my wife and I into her house to see our grandchildren because we don't meet with "the church". Our son brings them to our hotel. If there are any inquiring parents of college age students reading this do not allow your children to be deceived by the christians on campus movement. It promulgates the teaching of Witness Lee.

[least]

Originally Posted by HERn

My daughter-in-law won't let my wife and I into her house to see our grandchildren because we don't meet with "the church". Our son brings them to our hotel. If there are any inquiring parents of college age students reading this do not allow your children to be deceived by the christians on campus movement. It promulgates the teaching of Witness Lee.

Most sad, what LCers have become. Not 'God' at all.

Throw out the sadness from there. Love is eternal.

-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

My daughter-in-law won't let my wife and I into her house to see our grandchildren because we don't meet with "the church". Our son brings them to our hotel. If there are any inquiring parents of college age students reading this do not allow your children to be deceived by the christians on campus movement. It promulgates the teaching of Witness Lee.

Instead of "becoming God in life and nature but not in the Godhead," I wish they would aspire to "becoming God in love and kindness but not in judgmentalism."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Instead of "becoming God in life and nature but not in the Godhead," I wish they would aspire to "becoming God in love and kindness but not in judgmentalism."

Hear! Hear! Amen Ohio!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Instead of "becoming God in life and nature but not in the Godhead," I wish they would aspire to "becoming God in love and kindness but not in judgmentalism."

We just have to love the bros - it's His life in us!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We just have to love the bros - it's His life in us!

I just had to share it. I was reading William Law and what hit me was : 'Yes, we are all one in the Spirit. And the way to work it out is, brotherly love.'

But efforts to share it dropped like a stone. What was hot those days eclipsed brotherly love. BrotherLee love was all the fever ... er, ah, excuse me, the flow ... back then ... when the big news was : Brother Lee was the one and only apostle, oracle, authority, on the earth.

In the end, as has been proven uncountable times, brotherly love wasn't even on any of their long range radars ; not one little blip. Brother Lee covered up the entire radar screen. Still does in the LC.

BrotherLee love does not produce brotherly love. It's a irreconcilable conflict.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I just had to share it.

BrotherLee love does not produce brotherly love. It's a irreconcilable conflict.

Bingo! So well said!

Summarizes every LC conflict.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Bingo! So well said!

Summarizes every LC conflict.

We can say the same thing about “Ohio” love, “leastofthese” love, “awareness” love and the list goes on... JesusLove is all we can rely on.

I like the term you used, “irreconcilable conflict”. This is the reality that all those who follow Lee and the “recovery” apologists must deal with. It is difficult for most to even recognize the conflict, never mind address it. This can only be done through prayer and reliance on the Spirit of God.

For those struggling through addressing this conflict or those currently in its midst, may the Lord bless you and keep you; may the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; may the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We just have to love the bros - it's His life in us!

And SISTERS!! What are we? Chopped liver??

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

We can say the same thing about “Ohio” love, “leastofthese” love, “awareness” love and the list goes on... JesusLove is all we can rely on.

I like the term you used, “irreconcilable conflict”. This is the reality that all those who follow Lee and the “recovery” apologists must deal with. It is difficult for most to even recognize the conflict, never mind address it. This can only be done through prayer and reliance on the Spirit of God.

For those struggling through addressing this conflict or those currently in its midst, may the Lord bless you and keep you; may the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; may the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

Yes, but ...

No one ever sued their brothers, divided churches, slandered other brothers, backbiting ...

Because they loved Ohio.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

And SISTERS!! What are we? Chopped liver??

Well, sisters are just so much easier to love than stinky ol' bros!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, but ...

No one ever sued their brothers, divided churches, slandered other brothers, backbiting ...

Because they loved Ohio.

We know the Lord is at work when there is genuine forgiveness.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well, sisters are just so much easier to love than stinky ol' bros!

Yes. Sisters are angels ... while bros are beasts. Why do you think the 'bros' in the Bible have to hold the sisters down? And we still do ... the Bible tells us to ... too many believe. In Christ bros aren't better than sisters ... so Paul claims. Christianity disagrees. Jesus chose all male disciples. He only let Mary Magdalene hang around -- not only cuz she was loved him -- she provided financing.

I'd say throw out treating sisters like they are second class citizens. And to use the Magdalene metaphor, they provide the riches.

And don't tell me they're crazy. Men can't speak.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. Sisters are angels ... while bros are beasts. Why do you think the 'bros' in the Bible have to hold the sisters down? And we still do ... the Bible tells us to ... too many believe. In Christ bros aren't better than sisters ... so Paul claims. Christianity disagrees. Jesus chose all male disciples. He only let Mary Magdalene hang around -- not only cuz she was loved him -- she provided financing.

I'd say throw out treating sisters like they are second class citizens. And to use the Magdalene metaphor, they provide the riches.

And don't tell me they're crazy. Men can't speak.

Well . . . I . . . just don't quite know what to do with all . . . that!

[UntoHim]

Sorry Sons to Glory!...I guess you have not yet had the pleasure of being "baptized" by awareness. He's kind of like Witness Lee...way, way out there in left field. And just like Witness he means well. He really does. He has a heart of gold. I know this, and this is why I cut him extra slack. But, yes, he is a bit like Apollos...he needs to have somebody take him aside and "explain the way of God more accurately". Of course I'm not the one to do this...I've been trying for about 10 years now. No luck. He's too smart and too spiritual for me to get the job done. Maybe you can take a crack at him.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry Sons to Glory!...I guess you have not yet had the pleasure of being "baptized" by awareness. He's kind of like Witness Lee...way, way out there in left field. And just like Witness he means well. He really does. He has a heart of gold. I know this, and this is why I cut him extra slack. But, yes, he is a bit like Apollos...he needs to have somebody take him aside and "explain the way of God more accurately". Of course I'm not the one to do this...I've been trying for about 10 years now. No luck. He's too smart and too spiritual for me to get the job done. Maybe you can take a crack at him.
-

Thanks Untohim ... I think. I'm just having some fun and supporting the sisters ... of which we have too few. Thank God for CountMeWorthy and Nell. We need more strong women out here, like them. I like the brothers ... but ... there's too much testosterone on LCD.

Sisters unite. We need a sisters rebellion. Where's Jessie Penn-Lewis when we need her? Where's Thankful Jane? And I miss sister Stuart ; now there's a strong sister ... and sister Dancing.

And bro Untohim, LCD could use the financial support of a Mary Magdalene and Joanna. Us guys are cheapskates. And by the way, thank God for Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and all the other sisters that supported Jesus. I doubt we'd be here without them.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks Untohim ... I think. I'm just having some fun and supporting the sisters ... of which we have too few. Thank God for CountMeWorthy and Nell. We need more strong women out here, like them. I like the brothers ... but ... there's too much testosterone on LCD.

Sisters unite. We need a sisters rebellion. Where's Jessie Penn-Lewis when we need her? Where's Thankful Jane? And I miss sister Stuart ; now there's a strong sister ... and sister Dancing.

And bro Untohim, LCD could use the financial support of a Mary Magdalene and Joanna. Us guys are cheapskates. And by the way, thank God for Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and all the other sisters that supported Jesus. I doubt we'd be here without them.

I'm laughing, but I'm not real sure exactly why . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm laughing, but I'm not real sure exactly why . . .

. . . . . .

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Dear LC Lurkers,

If the elders in your locality look to the writings of WL before they look to the Bible, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality consider WL to be their spiritual father, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality teach that only LSM associated local churches are the genuine church of Jesus Christ, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality care for the human needs of only those absolute for the ministry of WL, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality teach that all other Christian groups are prostitutes, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality teach that only LSM approved music is acceptable to God, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality warn the saints to ignore their consciences, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality try to hide the sins of elders and LSM officials, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If you sense that your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits, then pray that the Father would open your eyes to what you need to see, and close your eyes to things you don't need to see.

If any of the elders in your locality or blended brothers at LSM claim to have drunk from WL's spirit or from the spirit of any man except Christ, then run like hell because they are certifiably crazy (in my opinion).

Wow! Saw this back in posts from 2015 and thought it was good to reprint for us three years later.

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the notion that Lee had any kind of inside track to God's mind or will because although Lee heard from God that he should start an RV manufacturing business he did not hear the part about the oil crisis that would occur to kill the RV endeavor. If Lee really heard from God to start an RV manufacturing business, then God threw Lee under the RV bus by not telling him that the oil crisis was coming. I don't think it's healthy to follow anyone as an apostle who God has thrown under the bus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm throwing out the notion that Lee had any kind of inside track to God's mind or will because although Lee heard from God that he should start an RV manufacturing business he did not hear the part about the oil crisis that would occur to kill the RV endeavor. If Lee really heard from God to start an RV manufacturing business, then God threw Lee under the RV bus by not telling him that the oil crisis was coming. I don't think it's healthy to follow anyone as an apostle who God has thrown under the bus.

Daystar was fraught with fraud. The oil crisis was just a convenient foil.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Daystar was fraught with fraud. The oil crisis was just a convenient foil.

But even if it wasn't fraught with fraud, HERn's point remains. Lee promised that God would bless the endevour with positive cash flow, and it was instead financial disaster. "God blew on it", I heard several LC'ers remark. Why did God blow on the vision of "the apostle of the age", to have it fall with a crash, as in Jesus' parable (Matt 7:24-27)?

And I'll go further: I'm throwing out the idea that Witness Lee was "the" apostle, or even "an" apostle, if he was leveraging his position to borrow $100K from Sal Benoit and the believers in Massachusetts. Positive cash flow or not, he was wrong hitting up church members for $$ for his kid's business. Totally unethical. (And I presume that what we have documented from MA was repeated around the country. We don't know how much in total flowed from local churches to Phosphorous to Daystar to Timothy Lee).

And I'm throwing out the idea that there was no "fallen human culture" in the Lord's recovery if the Daystar and Philip Lee as "The Office" episodes had to be hush-hushed and covered over, so that the "apostle" couldn't lose face post-blunder. Instead, we got these weird, "God blew on it" and "ambitious men rebelled" stories. Suddenly we had to "cover drunken Noah". Huh?

"People change", said Lee. Yeah, and some people don't change. Lee was in the iron grip of his native culture. As soon as push came to shove, God's New Testament Economy went bye-bye.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

But even if it wasn't fraught with fraud, HERn's point remains. Lee promised that God would bless the endeavour with positive cash flow, and it was instead financial disaster. "God blew on it", I heard several LC'ers remark. Why did God blow on the vision of "the apostle of the age", to have it fall with a crash, as in Jesus' parable (Matt 7:24-27)?

Agreed.

In those early days in Ohio, whenever catching wind of the Daystar fiasco, I would hear about the Oil Embargo. It affected everyone, so it was a convenient blame.

I knew nothing about the entire episode, yet I was filled with falsehoods in its aftermath. Brothers today still believe that every "investor" was reimbursed. Lee was portrayed as a persecuted victim of OPEC. No one discussed illegalities or a golden parachute for the Lee family.

TC always ensured that the Midwest maintained a pristine image of Lee. Why would he do that? If the leader was never held accountable, what would that do to the entire LC movement? TC always presented himself as a more spiritual and more faithful supporter of WL than any of those WL surrounded himself with. Looking back, it was a failed strategy. It protected the guilty, and threw the innocent under the motorhome.

[eDh22]

I'm throwing out....the need to get or give a resounding AMEN after every uttered phrase!

I've been told over the years that I use A LOT of spoken fillers. I didn't realize how much until I watched an hour video of myself conversing. I interjected a "yes", "uh huh", "I see" every time someone so much as took a breath in the conversation. It was so odd to view 3rd person - the only thing it finally reminded me of was a Local Church prayer meeting. I still carry with me the practice of reinforcing every few words uttered with a confirmation.

Anyone else still talk in a funny diction? Feel the need to pray in sing-song?

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

[Cal]

Originally Posted by eDh22

I'm throwing out....the need to get or give a resounding AMEN after every uttered phrase!

I've been told over the years that I use A LOT of spoken fillers. I didn't realize how much until I watched an hour video of myself conversing. I interjected a "yes", "uh huh", "I see" every time someone so much as took a breath in the conversation. It was so odd to view 3rd person - the only thing it finally reminded me of was a Local Church prayer meeting. I still carry with me the practice of reinforcing every few words uttered with a confirmation.

Anyone else still talk in a funny diction? Feel the need to pray in sing-song?

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

One thing a group like the LR does is compromise your self-esteem and self-respect and make it dependent upon the approval of others and the group. This is actually almost exactly the opposite of how God wants us to be. He wants us to respect ourselves and not need the approval of others. Now, there is nothing wrong with desiring and appreciating the LOVE of others. But approval is not love. Love is unconditional. Approval is by definition based on other's admiration of our behavior.

Again there is balance. If I cook a good meal and everyone praises it, it is normal for me to feel good about that. But if I LIVE to seek the approval of others, I am emotionally and probably morally compromised. That's what the amens do.

Bottom line: Your ultimate sense of self worth must come from how God feels about you, not how anyone else does. You are a beloved child of God, no matter what anyone else thinks.

[awareness]

[QUOTE=Igzy;84442]This is actually almost exactly the opposite of how God wants us to be. [Amen] He wants us to respect ourselves [Amen] and not need the approval of others. [Amen] Now, there is nothing wrong with desiring and appreciating the LOVE of others. [Amen] But approval is not love. [Amen] Love is unconditional. [Amen] Approval is by definition based on other's admiration of our behavior. [Amen]

Sorry Igzy. Couldn't help it. [Amen]

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry Igzy. Couldn't help it. [Amen]

I know those Amens were not for me, but I still liked them!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by eDh22

I'm throwing out....the need to get or give a resounding AMEN after every uttered phrase!

I've been told over the years that I use A LOT of spoken fillers. I didn't realize how much until I watched an hour video of myself conversing. I interjected a "yes", "uh huh", "I see" every time someone so much as took a breath in the conversation. It was so odd to view 3rd person - the only thing it finally reminded me of was a Local Church prayer meeting. I still carry with me the practice of reinforcing every few words uttered with a confirmation.

Anyone else still talk in a funny diction? Feel the need to pray in sing-song?

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

It's good that you got some self-feedback. I remember watching meeting film in fast forward, the arm going up and down high speed was so abnormal to look at.

We all spoke a little funny. I eventually purged myself of "High Peak" doctrines when I realized that I could only speak this stuff 5 min a week in the meetings.

Years ago, a Midwest brother commented that we pray in 6.7.6.7 meter. We all laughed, but he had a point. At some point I stopped the rhythm of my prayers, and slowed down to find the Lord in my heart. Metered prayer rhythms just became too exhausting.

[eDh22]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At some point I stopped the rhythm of my prayers, and slowed down to find the Lord in my heart.

Beautiful
Truth

Thank you!

[eDh22]

[QUOTE=awareness;84450]

Originally Posted by Igzy

This is actually almost exactly the opposite of how God wants us to be. [Amen] He wants us to respect ourselves [Amen] and not need the approval of others. [Amen] Now, there is nothing wrong with desiring and appreciating the LOVE of others. [Amen] But approval is not love. [Amen] Love is unconditional. [Amen] Approval is by definition based on other's admiration of our behavior. [Amen]

Sorry Igzy. Couldn't help it. [Amen]

Too funny!

Your insight is greatly appreciated, Igzy. I'll "keep it real" and say "right on!"

[Cal]

Originally Posted by eDh22

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

It took me a long time to decompress. Let me give a couple of examples that might help.

1. It took me a long time to understand I didn't need to get the pastors' permission on something I wanted to do, like start a bible study or some other act of service or ministry. They just don't have the same overbearing attitude. Leaders are servants, not lords.
   
   
2. It took me a long time to realize that the Church is everywhere and that service can occur anywhere. It doesn't have to be in the context of an officially organized local church. The Church is much more fluid than that. So if you have a particular gift, you don't necessarily need to find a perfect way to fit it into your particular local church. You gift may be, and often is, better expressed in some ministry or service outside the jurisdiction of your particular church leaders. They may just not have a place for what you are best at. Don't worry about it! Find a way to use your gift among the Church-at-large, wherever that might be.

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the notion that the Lords Recovery is a harmless sect of Christianity.

“Anna describes herself as a rebel. She began questioning x at a young age. But she was warned not to speak freely. ‘The questions – I had to suppress them because we are taught not to question, especially x. If we ask questions, we are blaspheming, and deserving of punishment in x. That threat of x, it kept me scared.’

Still, the questions burned inside of her as she grew older. Today, the internet makes information readily available. One day she went online … and what she discovered shocked her. There are other x doubters like me out there. I thought I was alone. The more Anna searched, the more her eyes were opened. She came across a website run by an ex-x who wanted to expose x. Eventually, Anna decided to leave x as well.

Then a friend who knew about her decision invited here to meet a pastor who was an ex-x like her. Curious, Anna went to see the pastor. Every time they met, he gave her Bible verses to read.”

From Frontline Faith vol. 10: No. 5: May 2019 (Open Doors, Serving Persecuted Christians worldwide.)

The above is a testimony of a sister who was in Islam. Some of her testimony sounds a lot like what some of us went through. By the way, this organization is able to get help to Christians in North Korea.

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm throwing out the idea that "God will get His purpose regardless of us - and if we get in His way He will flatten us like a steamroller!" I do believe God will get His purpose, but it will be done completely in love for us - the preceding statement greatly diminishes His love for man and creates unhealthy fear. (which fear can be manipulated)

Has this one been posted on this thread already? (hard to tell with nearly a thousand posts!)

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm throwing out the idea that "God will get His purpose regardless of us - and if we get in His way He will flatten us like a steamroller!" I do believe God will get His purpose, but it will be done completely in love for us - the preceding statement greatly diminishes His love for man and creates unhealthy fear. (which fear can be manipulated)

Has this one been posted on this thread already? (hard to tell with nearly a thousand posts!)

Was the above quote from the writings of the false prophet Witnsss Lee?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Was the above quote from the writings of the false prophet Witnsss Lee?

No, not a direct quote. I am not exactly sure where the idea of the steamroller came from, but that is the idea I got. To me the emphasis was on purpose. "God eternal has a purpose formed in His eternal past. Spreading to eternal future, twixt these ends all time is case. For with time there is the process - time for His accomplishment . . ." is a song we used to sing a lot. It was a wonderful song (and occasionally we still sing it here in Scottsdale). It is true, but I heard many times about brothers leaving the Recovery who met with many calamities or even an untimely demise as a direct result. The picture was painted that God had no use for you if you left His one purpose on the earth: "The Lord's Recovery."

Of course, the HUGE missing part of this picture is His amazing love for us - not a vengeance of some sort for falling short as if He is just waiting to whack us! I appreciate now, more than ever, that God eternal has a purpose, but now I see it through what is true - HIS LOVE FOR US!

So whether the word "steamroller" was actually used, I don't know, but I sure got the idea loud and clear!

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the belief that the coworkers don't practice witchcraft. Manuro in this link says not only is he filled with the Holy Spirit, but he is also filled with a dead man's spirit (WL), and that a dead man (WL) could be sitting in that empty chair. This link was included on Jo Casteel's FB page. Is this witchcraft?
https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...DRD_hckoKU629U

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm throwing out the belief that the coworkers don't practice witchcraft. Manuro in this link says not only is he filled with the Holy Spirit, but he is also filled with a dead man's spirit (WL), and that a dead man (WL) could be sitting in that empty chair. This link was included on Jo Casteel's FB page. Is this witchcraft?
https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...DRD_hckoKU629U

My my, this was a reply to that video:

Hello There - 14 hours ago
Oh witness lee! We worship you! You are our true oracle. Please help us in distributing your ministry to the fallen people... we are the only true Christians on this earth. Intact, where not even from Christianity!
Amen
Praise witness lee

That's a joke, right?! Can't be real . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm throwing out the belief that the coworkers don't practice witchcraft. Manuro in this link says not only is he filled with the Holy Spirit, but he is also filled with a dead man's spirit (WL), and that a dead man (WL) could be sitting in that empty chair. This link was included on Jo Casteel's FB page. Is this witchcraft?
https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...DRD_hckoKU629U

I don't know. But it sure is spine chilling creepy.

I lost a son. I miss him with great hurt. But if I told you I was filled with his spirit, you'd have to have me committed.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My my, this was a reply to that video: That's a joke, right?! Can't be real . . .

I think it's tongue in cheek. The first 30 minutes of the message are basically just Minoru going on and on about Lee, so it does come across pretty bad. I have never actually heard anyone pray TO Lee though.

What does bother me though is hearing things like "Thank you Lord for giving our brother [Lee] to us" or "Thank you for what you have revealed to us through brother Lee". It's almost like the Lord is simply the delivery vehicle for bringing Lee to us.

[Cal]

The "testimonies" at the end are simply creepy.

[Adelphos]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I think it's tongue in cheek. The first 30 minutes of the message are basically just Minoru going on and on about Lee, so it does come across pretty bad. I have never actually heard anyone pray TO Lee though.

What does bother me though is hearing things like "Thank you Lord for giving our brother [Lee] to us" or "Thank you for what you have revealed to us through brother Lee". It's almost like the Lord is simply the delivery vehicle for bringing Lee to us.

Just sickening. Astounding how educated and rich some LC members are but they still cannot see. Truly Jesus Christ is for the chosen as in 1 COR 1:26. Not many wise or noble were called.

[Adelphos]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know. But it sure is spine chilling creepy.

I lost a son. I miss him with great hurt. But if I told you I was filled with his spirit, you'd have to have me committed.

Yes but they usually have some explanation stating that is not what it means like the little god doctrine. Man becomes god but oh no it's not that doctrine, no of course not. My condolences btw.

[Adelphos]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I think it's tongue in cheek. The first 30 minutes of the message are basically just Minoru going on and on about Lee, so it does come across pretty bad. I have never actually heard anyone pray TO Lee though.

What does bother me though is hearing things like "Thank you Lord for giving our brother [Lee] to us" or "Thank you for what you have revealed to us through brother Lee". It's almost like the Lord is simply the delivery vehicle for bringing Lee to us.

Well put, terrible man pleasers. Please God not man. GAL 1:10

[Adelphos]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wow! Saw this back in posts from 2015 and thought it was good to reprint for us three years later.

Wow! Thanks.

[HERn]

Have you ever been cursed by a "fellow Christian"?

Benson Phillips preached to me at a conference that I will never go on with the Lord Jesus in sanctification and will not be blessed if I leave the LR. Well, my family has been gone since 2012 and have a vital Christian life in a local community church, thus proving Benson Phillips is a liar and functioning as an evil witch by cursing God's children.

I'm throwing out the belief that any officers in LSM have any useful comments to make to edify God's children. Everything they say must be evaluated with scripture. Anything not in agreement with scripture must be thrown out.

[HERn]

My son just told me that my grandkids are smoking pot with church kids in his locality. They are absolute for the ministry in the young people's meeting, then get stupid smoking pot.

I'm throwing out the belief that LC church kids are more sanctified than those in the hated denominations.

[jigsaw44]

To be honest, LC kids are just a bunch of indivudals that literally has been born in an unfortunately church lifestyle. Im not surprised they smoke pot in secret- it probably helps them escape the nonsense they are forced into. I can only imagine if they have really strict LC loyalist parents, that control their everyday lifestyles. Kids are just kids, let the LC exalt their members however they want- its all delusion to anyone that is not damn near blind to the deception of man. Honestly who knows why they smoke pot, but if they had the basic experiences and privilege's of a child- they probably wouldn't rely on it to satisfy their desires.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

To be honest, LC kids are just a bunch of indivudals that literally has been born in an unfortunately church lifestyle. Im not surprised they smoke pot in secret- it probably helps them escape the nonsense they are forced into. I can only imagine if they have really strict LC loyalist parents, that control their everyday lifestyles. Kids are just kids, let the LC exalt their members however they want- its all delusion to anyone that is not damn near blind to the deception of man. Honestly who knows why they smoke pot, but if they had the basic experiences and privilege's of a child- they probably wouldn't rely on it to satisfy their desires.

Jigsaw, are you an LC kid? I was born in it and raised in it. And hell, did it screw up with my outlook on life and everything. I used to be so immersed in those life studies, reading book after book, trying to get as many “gold nuggets” as possible. I have to give it props that some things were really thought out in those books but after being almost a decade out of LC, I can say that now whenever I go back to read them out of curiosity, there is always one thing on each page that makes me cringe or not settle the right way in my being.

[jigsaw44]

I came in the LC as a young adult. But I do see the lifestyles and outlook of the confined freedom the kids have. Alot of kids I can tell don't care about the LC and try to be like the kids around them at school and the real world. When they move out the house, I doubt they will stick long. I also feel bad of how joyful the kids are when they are young but as soon as they get older and older they will start to question and wonder why they cant do certain things or be a certain way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

I came in the LC as a young adult. But I do see the lifestyles and outlook of the confined freedom the kids have. A lot of kids I can tell don't care about the LC and try to be like the kids around them at school and the real world. When they move out the house, I doubt they will stick long. I also feel bad of how joyful the kids are when they are young but as soon as they get older and older they will start to question and wonder why they cant do certain things or be a certain way.

Lots of this is totally normal. Nearly every adolescent child feels that rules, discipline, and chores are just not needed.

I wish there was a way to distinguish between healthy Christian parents and all the failures in the LC's.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lots of this is totally normal. Nearly every adolescent child feels that rules, discipline, and chores are just not needed.

I wish there was a way to distinguish between healthy Christian parents and all the failures in the LC's.

One thing I noticed is that WL and WN threw off the restraints of their Episcopal and Baptist upbringings and went 'local', then the early wave of Anglos in the US & Europe in the '70s likewise threw off the 'yoke' of their various religious upbringings and likewise went LC.

But then, notice what happens - they refuse the same freedom of choice to the following generation of oppressed youth. Suddenly the worm turns and it is all about 'restrictions'. Suddenly the children can't possibly consider any other world than the one they're summarily handed.

The one who demanded freedom to follow their 'truth' now adamantly refuses any such thing to their own children. And the children know it - they know it's a farce. Mommy & Daddy left Babylon, but Junior & Sissy can't leave- oh no Sir! No, we're now all 'ruined and wrecked' for the LC, and so are our children, whether they want it or not.

Then the kids go out back and huff on bags of glue or whatever they can get hold of, to rid their brains and hearts of the nightmare, for even a moment.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The one who demanded freedom to follow their 'truth' now adamantly refuses any such thing to their own children. And the children know it - they know it's a farce. Mommy & Daddy left Babylon, but Junior & Sissy can't leave- oh no Sir!

I saw this played out repeatedly: freshly pulled off the college campus and now in the "brothers' house", I'd be invited to join an LC family for dinner. They'd chat of niceties, but at some point the grilling would begin. They wanted to know my story. So I'd tell them of my rough upbringing, then the struggles and empty graspings, then finding faith, then finding "the church our home", as the song goes. Then they'd each tell how they grew up in 'religion', or 'Christianity', then how they saw the light and entered the glorious church life. Meanwhile, Junior's sitting glumly, staring at his plate. Eventually he blurts out, "I'm here because I have to be here".

Mom & Dad cluck nervously, "Now, now, Junior..." And they try to placate him, and the guest, and smooth over the moment. Eventually Junior will go to a YP conference and have a manufactured crisis, and become Saved. Then at some College Conference, he'll have another manufactured crisis, and pledge his life to the Church, the Building of the Body, the Lord's Move, the Ministry of Truth or whatever rubric they're selling this week.

The entire thing is designed to take away your Vision Quest. Witness Lee got his, Mom & Dad got theirs, but for Junior it's forbidden, but rather he has to regurgitate the Ministry of the Age. Their 'vision' included taking away his vision. Remember the LC ditty - "I've given up my search" - contrast this to Jesus' "Seek and ye shall find". No searching or discovery allowed in the 'glorious church life'. No, WL did all your searching for you, and has a nice booklet for you to buy, and to distribute to your friends.

Most LC kids get this paradox, even though they may not say it like this, or articulate it at all. But they get it, and vote with their feet, or their Toyota, or a plane ticket. And a sizable percentage of those will afterward abandon any pretense of the Christian faith, associating it with subtle but unyielding pressure, along with hypocrisy, merchandising of souls, ignorant superstition, misplaced zeal, and a sense of dread. Been there, done that. No thanks.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

Most LC kids get this paradox, even though they may not say it like this, or articulate it at all. But they get it, and vote with their feet, or their Toyota, or a plane ticket. And a sizable percentage of those will afterward abandon any pretense of the Christian faith, associating it with subtle but unyielding pressure, along with hypocrisy, merchandising of souls, ignorant superstition, misplaced zeal, and a sense of dread. Been there, done that. No thanks.

This is very true, and thank you for putting it into words. I also agree with a previous comment that church kids are not somehow more "sanctified", and the whole expectation that we were supposed to be was impossible to live up to. One of the many reasons I left.

Side note, but why is everyone hating on pot? Personally I'm not allowed to smoke it due to my job, but it has been recommended to me by medical professionals for anxiety and pain relief. I don't see how moderate consumption of marijuana is any different than moderate consumption of alcohol.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Have you ever been cursed by a "fellow Christian"?

Benson Phillips preached to me at a conference that I will never go on with the Lord Jesus in sanctification and will not be blessed if I leave the LR. Well, my family has been gone since 2012 and have a vital Christian life in a local community church, thus proving Benson Phillips is a liar and functioning as an evil witch by cursing God's children.

I'm throwing out the belief that any officers in LSM have any useful comments to make to edify God's children. Everything they say must be evaluated with scripture. Anything not in agreement with scripture must be thrown out.

Wow - this has to be one of the longest and oldest (started 2014) ongoing threads on this forum, if not the very longest! (UntoHim - does HERn get a prize or sumptin for starting this one? ) Without searching through all nearly 1000 posts, I'm curious . . . has anybody done a summary listing of things brought up to throw out?

[HERn]

I’m throwing out the assumption that the teaching in the LC does not lead to idolatry of the individual and self.

Might one of the problems with the LC hemorrhaging its young people be related to its focus on “I’m a man I’m the meaning of the universe” rather than “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

Quote from Mark Noll
“When young people think only of what religion brings to them by way of self-fulfillment, there is a danger of creating a religion that centers around “me.” All the traditional religions call that idolatry rather than true religion.”

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionand...terview/11416/

[JJ]

Great post Hern,

One need only count how many times I, me, and my appears on LC writings and songs to see how self-centered the LC and LSM are.

Hymn 537 (http://www.churchinmontereypark.org/...hymns/537.html) has six in the chorus alone and two per stanza.

At a Lord’s table meeting in 2015, the year I left, it hit me that we were all worshipping ourselves rather than the Father. I stood up to say so, and never went back.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I’m throwing out the assumption that the teaching in the LC does not lead to idolatry of the individual and self.

Might one of the problems with the LC hemorrhaging its young people be related to its focus on “I’m a man I’m the meaning of the universe” rather than “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

“When young people think only of what religion brings to them by way of self-fulfillment, there is a danger of creating a religion that centers around “me.” All the traditional religions call that idolatry rather than true religion.”

When I came into the LC, nobody was paying attention to me at home, at school, at my family's church. But in the LC I got love-bombed, and found out it was all about me. Wow! Wonderful. I was enamored, seduced. As the new one, I was the center and focus of the LC meeting. All the old-timers crowded round, after services ended, wanting me over for dinner, picnics, cookouts, wanted me to meet their children. I was flattered. I thought this was great - I was a VIP.

And all the messages reflected and amplified this. Both the song saying, "I'm a man - I'm the center of the universe" and statement "I can exercise my human spirit" exemplify that. (Actually it was, "Ayyyyeee caaaan exercise miiiiiyyyyyyy huuuuuuuumannnnn SPIIIIIRRRIIIITTT!" [Ayyyyeeeemmmmeeeeyyyynnnnn!!!])

And then the song, "So subjective is my Christ in me, real in me and rich and sweet. All my desires he exceeds..." Notice how "me" is the focus, the subject, and "Christ" is an object of manipulation. And, "Weeee are drinking at the fountain that can never run dry" - it was all about us, our drinking, our thirst, our satisfaction, our rest. Christ was reduced to an object, a tool. But I was so enamored that I didn't bother to notice.

Eventually we found out it was really all about the ministry, the Body, the local ground, the New Way, the Vital Groups, the apostle, the seer of the divine revelation, God's oracle, the deputy God, and today's Moses, aka prolific book author and self-publisher. Only later still did we learn about motor homes, men's suits, gold chairs, and other merchandising schemes. But by then many were besotted by the kingdom of self and couldn't tell left from right, up from down, black from white. Nope, now the fixation was all about our enjoyment, our human spirit, our satisfaction and our rest.

Needless to say it's an effective stratagem. Even when seeing repeated, clear biblical warnings one thinks, "No, that can't be about me". I know this points to the current "Fearing God" discussion, but it relates here, too - think of James 4 for example. Who's he talking to? Unbelievers and reprobates? No, he's writing to the 12 tribes in dispersion - the Jewish Christians of his day. But it was fully applicable to the gentile. James was writing to disciples, who believed into and followed Jesus as Lord. He was giving them a diagnosis and an antidote:

Verse 1: "wars and fightings among you"
v 2: "ye lust and have not"
v 4: "adulterers and adulteresses"
v 8: "cleanse your hands, ye sinners"
v 11: "he speaks evil of his brother and judges him"
v 14: "your life is a vapour that vanisheth away"
v 16: "you rejoice in your boastings, which is evil"

He's writing this to believers, but why? He's trying to save them from themselves. James loves them. He's trying to rescue them. He's shepherding them. He's not puffing them up and manipulating them and merchandising them. He's pointing them to the Way. Notice how many times he says, "brethren" and "beloved brethren". He loves them, and doesn't want them to fall by the wayside. And self is one of the biggest ditches around.

[googlelight]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

Hello HERn. The answer is yes! I left TLR appr. 2-3 years ago.(The reason being that they made oneness a dividing factor. (They are right and most, if not all, other Christians are wrong, they claim). It goes without saying this is not healthy. 1 Cor 13:9. We need each other. That is the brute fact. We might not like it. But if my neighbour is a Catholic, and my other neighbour is a baptist, and they confess Jesus as God and Lord, I need them, just as they need me. After I left, I prayed somewhat loosely, yet I made lots of new Christian friends. I stick with them. Some of them dont have lots of bible knowledge, but they are seeking for the Lord - and when we gather, God`s presence is there in our weakness. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, or maybe, in broken vessels :P I had to let go of alot of the Recovery doctrines. But I still hold on to the good stuff. Witness Lees system has some bones I had to throw out. But he was also right in many things. My position now is this: The Lord always places Himself with those who are humble and weak. If you acknowledge you are that one, you will be so blessed! We are called to live in the song of songs. Discovering who He is and who we are. But surely, we are not called to live in Witness Lees song of songs. We have to be in our own journey with Him