How Much To Throw Out?

[HERn]

Does anyone know the topic or title of the winter training?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

Does anyone know the topic or title of the winter training?

The training was on Exodus. What I collect from various posts that I've seen of Facebook, it was on the second half of Exodus.

The speaking of the blendeds probably went something like this: When we come to the second half of Exodus we need to see the intrinsic significance of all the types that other Christians don't see, because they don't have a heart for God's economy....

I'm sure you get the picture. I'm so glad that I don't waste my time, money and vacation time with those week long indoctrination sessions.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The training was on Exodus... "When we come to the second half of Exodus we need to see..."

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

Oh the vivid flashbacks of those splendid "oohs and aahs" coming from the front row Blendeds as our beloved MOTA launched into yet another of his high peak rants ...

[Terry]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

Yes, another example of speaking a lot of words to say very little with the intent of trying to get you out of your spirit and into your mind.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I believe it was on the intrinsic significance of the crystallized high peak revelation of the mystical economy producing the consummated divine-human incorporated God-man living for the final revival to end the age. Something like that.

During my days of deception I used to rave with my LC brothers saying "who can speak these kind of things?" and "how rich is the ministry".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

During my days of deception I used to rave with my LC brothers saying "who can speak these kind of things?" and "how rich is the ministry".

At the point in time where I became disillusioned with the LC, all the ranting and raving about the "richness" of WL's ministry really started to get to me. It occurred to me that if the LC were really so great, then there would be no need for people to constantly talk that way, that would just be a common understanding.

I am thoroughly convinced that LCers talk this way because they need the constant reinforcement that these "high peak" teachings actually mean something. WL's "high peak" can only be repackaged so many ways. I have to assume that the LC preys upon vulnerable young people who want to be made to feel that they have life all figured out. This keeps the momentum of WL's "high peak" going. The excitement of that should have died off along time ago, but it hasn't. I see all the posts on Facebook. After each of these trainings, there is talk about how the Lord has been moving and the "last revival" has been initiated to "end the age". It's actually kind of funny how this same supposed "revival" keeps happening over and over again. You would think that some members would get clued in to what is really going on.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I used to rave ... "who can speak these kind of things?"

Actually it's deceptively easy. Just take a few esoteric and/or spiritually-sounding words, mash them together observing a few rules of syntax "of", "for", and "the" and you're in business. Literally, in business; in the case of WL and crew, a long and successful business.

What strikes me at this point is that 500 years later we've come full circle, as it were: a human organization claims that it alone mediates between fallen and seeking humanity and its Creator and Redeemer God. And instead of Johann Tetzel saying "When the coin in the offering box rings, a soul to heaven springs" we have the merchandising of stilted catch-phrases from the Blendeds Wee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel

Just buy the brightly colored rainbow booklet, chant or sing or recite or pray or shout aloud the special words from God's Special Messenger, and you're enroute to empyrean realms. And all for just a dollar.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What strikes me at this point is that 500 years later we've come full circle, as it were: a human organization claims that it alone mediates between fallen and seeking humanity and its Creator and Redeemer God. And instead of Johann Tetzel saying "When the coin in the offering box rings, a soul to heaven springs" we have the merchandising of stilted catch-phrases from the Blendeds Wee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel

I suppose we also could consider those 16 points put together by the elders in Anaheim to replicate Luther's "95 Theses."

[Terry]

Originally Posted by aron

Actually it's deceptively easy. Just take a few esoteric and/or spiritually-sounding words, mash them together observing a few rules of syntax "of", "for", and "the" and you're in business.

In principle it's no different than people who speak using triple negatives. All the while trying to comprehend was just spoken, it's quite unnecessary.

[Unsure]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I suppose we also could consider those 16 points put together by the elders in Anaheim to replicate Luther's "95 Theses."

16 points?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unsure

16 points?

Was this during the so-called early 80's rebellion?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Was this during the so-called early 80's rebellion?

This is extracted from John Ingalls booklet, "Speaking the Truth in Love." See Appendix B for complete text.

SIXTEEN POINTS
August 28, 1988

As the day drew near for special fellowship with the church as we had announced, Godfred, Al and I (Anaheim Elders) came together for prayer and fellowship regarding the content of the coming gathering. We only knew that we needed to clear up some matters, and set a direction for the church, and we had been praying individually for guidance concerning the specific points that should be covered. I proposed to the brothers that we briefly expound a number of basic matters according to the Word of God that set forth the proper standing of the church, touching especially the aspects both of truth and practice that related to our current situation. The brothers consented. After some consideration we decided that I would cover eight points concerning the truth and Godfred would cover eight points regarding the practice; in conclusion Al would give a testimony of confirmation.

The appointed time arrived for the meeting. (Brother Lee meanwhile was in San Gabriel, meeting with the Chinese-speaking saints.) This time, we felt, was very crucial to our going on. There were over two hundred saints on hand, including some on the Chinese-speaking side who understood English (a good number considering our usual attendance). Brothers Minoru Chen and Philip Lin with the three of us sat together in the front. We launched into our burden and experienced much strengthening, release, and anointing. As contemplated, I covered the points concerning our standing related to the truth. This touched the following points (in a greatly abridged form):

1. Our standing in relation to the Word of God. It is our sole authority, our constitution, and we should check everything by it.
2. Our standing concerning the church. In this age the church is central and supreme; no other corporate body is recognized by the New Testament.
3. Concerning the genuine oneness. It is organic; it can never be organized or forced. Spiritual leaders should not divide us.
4. Concerning other Christians. We should never mock or belittle other Christians with an elitist attitude; rather, we should love, honor, and receive them all.
5. Concerning our vocation. It is to build up the Body of Christ, not any work or ministry.
6. Concerning our purpose or aim. It is to be the Lord’s testimony; we are not here for any work.
7. Concerning the ministry. It is the imparting of God into His people to produce the church. It is not the ministry of any one person; we all have a share in it.
8. Concerning the apostles. They are always plural, and there are a number of them on the earth today. We should not exalt any apostle or servant of God beyond what is written.

The full text of my points as well as Godfred’s plus Al’s testimony is included in the Appendix (see page 79, Appendix B).

I spoke honestly and frankly according to the solid principles revealed in the Word, which we had been taught and which we had believed and held for years, applying some of the points to our present situation. I was not aiming at Brother Lee. I was burdened to present the basic truths concerning our standing and correct some misconceptions held by the saints. The present need demanded that we touch specifically the matters which we addressed. I have heard Brother Lee repeat a number of times what he had been told by a brother. "These sixteen points are sixteen bullets aimed at you {Brother Lee}." That is not true. If anything hit him it is not because we were aiming at him.
Godfred followed and covered eight points regarding our practice:

1. In relation to church administration. It should be local, with no central control. The elders in each place should seek the Lord directly for his timely leading according to the need in their locality.
2. The Living Stream Ministry Office. It is a business office and has no authority over the church. As the church we disassociate ourselves from certain practices and conduct there that we find intolerable.
3. The Life Studies and Christian literature in general. We should never allow spiritual materials to become a crutch or replacement for the reading of the Bible. To insist upon reading only LSM material or to oppose the reading of LSM material is going to far.
4. The church book sales. We will continue this service, but we will no longer advertise or promote any books.
5. The semi-annual trainings. We will no longer interrupt our church life for the trainings. Anyone who wishes to attend the trainings should feel free to do so.
6. The other churches. We should respect and highly esteem all other churches, but we should not compel the church in our locality to practice like other churches.
7. Various practices. In all these matters we must practice generality. Any practice which is not sinful we should not oppose; neither should we impose it.
8. The gospel. There is no particular way to preach the gospel; any proper way is good.

Godfred spoke earnestly and to the point with a good spirit. He apologized to the church on our behalf for coming under the influence of external pressures in past years and not seeking the Lord’s leading directly according to the local need. He confessed to the saints on our behalf the promoting of an improper relationship with the LSM office, so that we declared our oneness with that office and thus associated ourselves with its conduct. The blame for that relationship, he said, must be borne by us elders, and not put on the doorstep of the office.

Godfred closed with this statement, which I want to quote in full: "Our reason for having this fellowship is not to vindicate anyone or to condemn anyone, or to do anything for ourselves. We are having this fellowship for the purpose of bringing us all back to the Lord Himself. He is our Head, He is our center; and He should be the entire unique content of the church life! We hope that the things we have briefly mentioned will clear up the past so that we all can go forward together positively as the church in our city." This was a fitting conclusion to the sixteen points.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi bro Terry,

I've been in a real local community church for over a year now and I can say that I have never experienced politics like I did in the local church. Before I left I was being pressured by three brothers (one an elder) to write a letter to RK about what was going on. Two brothers had already written a letter to RK, but I hand no heart to do it, although I did write a draft letter and showed it to an elder. He agreed with the letter but when I asked him to co-sign it with me he refused. I finally realized that several of the so-called elders were snakes so I just cut them off.

They probably know nothing would come of it. RK's a politician. On the old public square (www.thebereans.net) Norm relayed what happened in Michigan. He as a coworker appealed to Ron only to have it fall on deaf ears.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

They probably know nothing would come of it. RK's a politician. On the old public square (www.thebereans.net) Norm relayed what happened in Michigan. He as a coworker appealed to Ron only to have it fall on deaf ears.

It's worse than polyticks, it's the hipocrisy of the Pharisees.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is extracted from John Ingalls booklet, "Speaking the Truth in Love." See Appendix B for complete text.

SIXTEEN POINTS
August 28, 1988

As the day drew near for special fellowship with the church as we had announced, Godfred, Al and I (Anaheim Elders) came together for prayer and fellowship regarding the content of the coming gathering. We only knew that we needed to clear up matters, and set a direction for the church, and we'd been praying individually for guidance concerning the specific points that should be covered.

Why is it that the Anaheim elders, all hand-picked by WL and hard-core for his vision, got exiled for "rebellion"? Seeing the Anaheim case, and remembering how WN's hand-picked Shanghai Christian Assembly elders expelled him from fellowship, one wonders why this supposedly normal church structure is accompanied by so much turmoil.

There appears to be something about this particular system of 'Deputy God' authority and abject submission that leads inevitably to abuse and then crisis and collapse.

You know, Watchman Nee reminds me of Karl Marx: he looked at the system as it stood, and then told us it was hopelessly flawed, and proposed a blank-slate, start-all-over system which could cure all those ills. Instead of the Workers Paradise of Marx, Nee gave us the Glorious Church.

Both social systems, one economic and political in orientation, and one religious, were reactions to the failures of other systems, and both were significantly worse than the ills which they proposed to remedy.

Today, I'd rather deal with the Lutherans and Baptists and Anglicans. I admit and receive every critique of Lee and Nee and the Blendeds; all true, or mostly true. But they're still preferable, than dealing with the Local Church system.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Why is it that the Anaheim elders, all hand-picked by WL and hard-core for his vision, got exiled for "rebellion"? Seeing the Anaheim case, and remembering how WN's hand-picked Shanghai Christian Assembly elders expelled him from fellowship, one wonders why this supposedly normal church structure is accompanied by so much turmoil.

There appears to be something about this particular system of 'Deputy God' authority and abject submission that leads inevitably to abuse and then crisis and collapse.

You know, Watchman Nee reminds me of Karl Marx: he looked at the system as it stood, and then told us it was hopelessly flawed, and proposed a blank-slate, start-all-over system which could cure all those ills. Instead of the Workers Paradise of Marx, Nee gave us the Glorious Church.

Both social systems, one economic and political in orientation, and one religious, were reactions to the failures of other systems, and both were significantly worse than the ills which they proposed to remedy.

At first glance, the LC newcomer to this forum would scream sacrilege to place MOTA's and Marx's even in the same stadium.

But let's remember the wise old adage: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At first glance, the LC newcomer to this forum would scream sacrilege to place MOTA's and Marx's even in the same stadium.

But let's remember the wise old adage: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I think leaving the LC, for the average person, is a long process at least it was for me. For me it started with an offended conscience. I think God wants us to pay attention to our offended consciences. The false-teaching of LSM is that we should ignore an offended conscience even to the extent of covering up sin. This protects the leadership, but does not take adequate spiritual care of the sheep. Eventually, offended consciences become hardened, which allows brothers to become bullies and causes them to erupt in unreasonable anger and condemnation (there are accounts that some foamed at the mouth) when the ministry, LSM, LC, WL, WN, blended brothers, elders, deacons, etc. are questioned, criticized, or held accountable.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think leaving the LC, for the average person, is a long process at least it was for me. For me it started with an offended conscience. I think God wants us to pay attention to our offended consciences. The false-teaching of LSM is that we should ignore an offended conscience even to the extent of covering up sin. This protects the leadership, but does not take adequate spiritual care of the sheep. Eventually, offended consciences become hardened, which allows brothers to become bullies and causes them to erupt in unreasonable anger and condemnation (there are accounts that some foamed at the mouth) when the ministry, LSM, LC, WL, WN, blended brothers, elders, deacons, etc. are questioned, criticized, or held accountable.

With immediate family and maybe relatives meeting with the local churches, fully leaving hasn't happened yet for me. Still come into contact with brothers and sisters I knew in the local churches. Away from the LC setting, normal brothers and sisters. On Facebook you see family is more important to these ones than what the latest and greatest coming out of Anaheim is. More likely to see Facebook posts about food and coffee than anything ministry centered.

About the LC and LSM leadership, they don't want being called out, questioned, criticized, nor to be held accountable according to 1 Timothy 5:19-20

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

About the LC and LSM leadership, they don't want being called out, questioned, criticized, nor to be held accountable according to 1 Timothy 5:19-20

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

They have changed it from "...that the rest will be fearful of sinning" to "...that the rest will be fearful of speaking." In the LC and LSM leadership, the Great Commandment is to be one in speaking with Anaheim. If you do that, you have fulfilled all the LC law and prophets.

If something bothers your conscience, just remember the Great Commandment: be "one" with the brothers. If your speaking isn't "one" with the Blendeds latest, don't speak, period.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by aron

If something bothers your conscience, just remember the Great Commandment: be "one" with the brothers. If your speaking isn't "one" with the Blendeds latest, don't speak, period.

Anyone who disputes this post of Aron's, please step forward. More often than not it's local church practice when one contradicts the blended's speaking.
Look what happened to Steve Isitt, Mario Sandoval, etc. If your conscience is bothered, don't make an issue of persons, matters, or things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think leaving the LC, for the average person, is a long process at least it was for me. For me it started with an offended conscience. I think God wants us to pay attention to our offended consciences. The false-teaching of LSM is that we should ignore an offended conscience even to the extent of covering up sin. This protects the leadership, but does not take adequate spiritual care of the sheep. Eventually, offended consciences become hardened, which allows brothers to become bullies and causes them to erupt in unreasonable anger and condemnation (there are accounts that some foamed at the mouth) when the ministry, LSM, LC, WL, WN, blended brothers, elders, deacons, etc. are questioned, criticized, or held accountable.

These are great points. Years ago I came to the conclusion that THE PROGRAM created bullies out of beloved brothers, based on all that I had witnessed.

LC leaders loved to promote spiritual "exercise" by standing up and shouting slogans or scripture, but the Bible tells us to "exercise, or train, ourself unto godliness." (I Timothy 4.7; Hebrews 5.14) They would promote some phony and contrived "godmanliving," but prevent the normal godly exercise of our conscience, an inward exercise unto godliness. Is not our conscience the leading part of our spirit? To exercise our spirit is to exercise our conscience.

Their exercise of the spirit in the meetings for public show is no different than the Pharisees praying on the street corners for show. During that Whistler kangaroo court to quarantine Titus Chu, one Blended said, "let's all stand and call on the Lord 5x." I about puked.

[HERn]

We just came back from our "one another" group where sang songs, read scripture, and prayed. We sang the sweetest song where we thanked the Father for sending His Son. I'm throwing out the lie that only in the LSM LCs is the Father praised.

[JJ]

My top three things to throw out and what to replace them with.

1) "I just need to turn to my spirit" or "turn to your spirit". Instead: "Turn our (or your) heart to the Lord (who is the Spirit).
2) Starting every meeting with a group "chant of "O Lord Jesus". Instead: Genuine prayer inspired by the Spirit
3) Holy Word for Morning Revival. Instead: Bible Verses (let's get back to basics!)

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

Hi JJ! Welcome! I've found that my feelings for the Lord are just as strong in church meetings outside the LC, and may even be more genuine. For a sect of Christianity that says it has no liturgy the LSM LCs have methods and a practice that is very similar everywhere. The elders meet twice a year where the practices mandated from the Blendeds are reinforced. My son was in the GLA where some different things were being practiced and the blindeds cut off an entire region. I might be wrong, but I think the LSM LSs are eventually going to implode as the more moderate saints who do not obey LSM and exalt WL leave. Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi JJ! Welcome! I've found that my feelings for the Lord are just as strong in church meetings outside the LC, and may even be more genuine. For a sect of Christianity that says it has no liturgy the LSM LCs have methods and a practice that is very similar everywhere. The elders meet twice a year where the practices mandated from the Blendeds are reinforced. My son was in the GLA where some different things were being practiced and the blindeds cut off an entire region. I might be wrong, but I think the LSM LSs are eventually going to implode as the more moderate saints who do not obey LSM and exalt WL leave. Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

Thanks, HERn. I agree. That's why I'm not there now. I do miss openly praying, calling a song, praising, testifying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit during the Lord's table though.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

Oops. I want to correct my post. I have not found anything like TLTM (the Lords Table Meeting) outside of TLR. Too bad the Lords Table meeting in The Lords Recovery doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

Sorry for the confusion!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

My top three things to throw out and what to replace them with.

1) "I just need to turn to my spirit" or "turn to your spirit". Instead: "Turn our (or your) heart to the Lord (who is the Spirit).
2) Starting every meeting with a group "chant of "O Lord Jesus". Instead: Genuine prayer inspired by the Spirit
3) Holy Word for Morning Revival. Instead: Bible Verses (let's get back to basics!)

Two more things to throw out and what to replace them with:

4) "Give up the world". Instead "Don't love the world" and see John's definition of the world in 1 John to understand what the world is.

5) "get out of your mind". Instead "use the mind of the Spirit, and "you have the mind of Christ".

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

Here is something not to throw out (quote see page 97 of "The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee, published by LSM:

"If in a given place anyone believes on the Lord, as a matter of course he is a constituent of the church in that place; there is no further step necessary in order to make him a constituent. No subsequent joining is required of him. Provided he belongs to the Lord, he already belongs to the church in that locality; and since he already belongs to the church, his belonging cannot be made subject to any condition. If, before recognizing a believer as a member of the church, we insist that he join us, we are immediately in an unscriptural position."

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

That's been happening gradually. They (meaning those in the local churches) generally love those and include those who love the ministry. It's more ministry churches than it is local churches. LSM acolytes are getting older with much of the younger ones are ones raised in the local churches. Young people who don't have an appetite for the ministry will find themselves being neglected in lieu of young people who do have an appetite for the ministry. I've seen it happen. The neglected young people over time stop meeting with the local churches.
This is why my description of the LSM/LC is seen in Luke 6:32

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

I could come up with a list what qualities LSM acolytes look for in caring for the system.

• 100% for the ministry
• no criticisms
• no questions
• no concerns
• ignore your conscience
• speaking is 100% positive

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

Here is something not to throw out (quote see page 97 of "The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee, published by LSM:

"If in a given place anyone believes on the Lord, as a matter of course he is a constituent of the church in that place; there is no further step necessary in order to make him a constituent. No subsequent joining is required of him. Provided he belongs to the Lord, he already belongs to the church in that locality; and since he already belongs to the church, his belonging cannot be made subject to any condition. If, before recognizing a believer as a member of the church, we insist that he join us, we are immediately in an unscriptural position."

Nee made various statements such as this that would have provided balance had LC leaders took it into account. It's ironic how LC members gloss over certain things like this that Nee said.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Nee made various statements such as this that would have provided balance had LC leaders took it into account. It's ironic how LC members gloss over certain things like this that Nee said.

TC had all the GLA leaders read Nee's TNCCL back in the early 2000's. We read it in our elders meeting, and could not believe how far off things had become.

[HERn]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f4whBsh9ovI


This morning in a real local church meeting I worshiped and praised my Lord with more feeling than I ever had in the LSM-controlled LCs.

Chris Tomlin

He became sin, who knew no sin
That we might become His righteousness
He humbled himself and carried the cross

Love so amazing, love so amazing

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all

His body the bread, his blood the wine
Broken and poured out all for love
The whole earth trembled, and the veil was torn

Love so amazing, love so amazing, yeah

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all

All our hope is in You, all our hope is in You
All the glory to You, God, the light of the world

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all
--------------------------------------------------------
In the bible there is only the gospel. The false teaching of WL has created the so-called "high" and "low" gospel.

[Terry]

I've come to receive hymns composed by Chris Tomlin and other contemporary Christian composers as being God inspired. Though I know in the Local Churches, their God-inspired songwriting is criticized, ridiculed, etc as being "wordly", "fleshly", etc.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

I've come to receive hymns composed by Chris Tomlin and other contemporary Christian composers as being God inspired. Though I know in the Local Churches, their God-inspired songwriting is criticized, ridiculed, etc as being "wordly", "fleshly", etc.

Yes, me too.

I like the one HERn posted yesterday.

I do like and continue to sing quite a few TLR hymns and songs still. The one that starts with "Oh glorious Christ Savoir mine thou art truly radiance divine" is one. It would be good to make a new hymn and song book with bests and tossing worsts from TLR and elsewhere.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes, me too.

I like the one HERn posted yesterday.

I do like and continue to sing quite a few TLR hymns and songs still. The one that starts with "Oh glorious Christ Savoir mine thou art truly radiance divine" is one. It would be good to make a new hymn and song book with bests and tossing worsts from TLR and elsewhere.

I've thought the same thing, that it would be good to cull out all the misleading hymns...and even going through the RecV bible and getting rid of all the footnotes based on the error of WL's teaching, but that's too dangerous for me because I would be bringing in the false teaching and doctrine into my mind. I've spent the better part of 18 months trying to get that stuff out of my mind. To protect my mind l've decided that I'll never read or consider any of the writings of a man that others call the MOTA, apostle, or oracle of God, except of course the writings of Paul and the other NT writers.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

I've thought the same thing, that it would be good to cull out all the misleading hymns...and even going through the RecV bible and getting rid of all the footnotes based on the error of WL's teaching, but that's too dangerous for me because I would be bringing in the false teaching and doctrine into my mind. I've spent the better part of 18 months trying to get that stuff out of my mind. To protect my mind l've decided that I'll never read or consider any of the writings of a man that others call the MOTA, apostle, or oracle of God, except of course the writings of Paul and the other NT writers.

Being raised in the local church, there's been the thought tunes to scriptural songs was a LCM creation, but much to my surprise, it's not so.

Psalms 51:10-12
Psalms 19:7-11
Psalms 25:1-10

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I've thought the same thing, that it would be good to cull out all the misleading hymns...and even going through the RecV bible and getting rid of all the footnotes based on the error of WL's teaching, but that's too dangerous for me because I would be bringing in the false teaching and doctrine into my mind. I've spent the better part of 18 months trying to get that stuff out of my mind. To protect my mind l've decided that I'll never read or consider any of the writings of a man that others call the MOTA, apostle, or oracle of God, except of course the writings of Paul and the other NT writers.

Yes, I once "bought" the MOTA, the apostle, and the oracle of God monikers for Lee, because I got help from his ministry. But, they are simply un-scriptural and insulting to our Lord Jesus, who is the only "The" in these categories.
Amazing that we failed to follow the apostle Paul's exhortations to not form a sect around our favorite "apostle".

[Terry]

Originally Posted by JJ

Amazing that we failed to follow the apostle Paul's exhortations to not form a sect around our favorite "apostle".

Well, that follows into the double standards category. Others may do it, but we in the local churches don't follow any man.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

Being raised in the local church, there's been the thought tunes to scriptural songs was a LCM creation, but much to my surprise, it's not so.

Psalms 51:10-12
Psalms 19:7-11
Psalms 25:1-10

Yes I suspect that at least one motivation for WL to put the kibosh on psalm-singing was that some of the tunes were coming from dreaded Christianity, which by definition was incapable of enjoying God's moving Spirit.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I suspect that at least one motivation for WL to put the kibosh on psalm-singing was that some of the tunes were coming from dreaded Christianity, which by definition was incapable of enjoying God's moving Spirit.

Yes. I had visited a community church in Bellevue (a Bellevue brother I knew attended) and on that particular LDM the congregation was singing Psalms 51:9-12. One of my initial thoughts, "you mean LSM doesn't own the copyrights to this song?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

One of my initial thoughts, "you mean LSM doesn't own the copyrights to this song?"

In using older, (19th century and earlier) Christian music, LSM could promote its ties to the "rich heritage" of Christianity. Look, ma, we are orthodox! But if any recent Christian music were instituted, after Nee started writing hymns, then the "one trumpet" idea would be violated.

So Keith Green's melody to Psalm 51 - "create in me a clean heart" was very threatening to Lee (so I suppose).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Green

And "seek ye first the kingdom of God" was composed by a young woman who wanted to sing for Jesus. Maranatha Music used it on one of their first albums and it was a huge hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH8bV7rUVaU

When this kind of music began to make inroads into the LC, I daresay it was a concern. Christianity was supposed to be dead letters, traditions, and darkness. How could the spirit possibly move among them? But there it was, threatening LC hegemony on the Spirit.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

In using older, (19th century and earlier) Christian music, LSM could promote its ties to the "rich heritage" of Christianity. Look, ma, we are orthodox! But if any recent Christian music were instituted, after Nee started writing hymns, then the "one trumpet" idea would be violated.

So Keith Green's melody to Psalm 51 - "create in me a clean heart" was very threatening to Lee (so I suppose).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Green

And "seek ye first the kingdom of God" was composed by a young woman who wanted to sing for Jesus. Maranatha Music used it on one of their first albums and it was a huge hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH8bV7rUVaU

When this kind of music began to make inroads into the LC, I daresay it was a concern. Christianity was supposed to be dead letters, traditions, and darkness. How could the spirit possibly move among them? But there it was, threatening LC hegemony on the Spirit.

I think many LSM LC saints believe that there was no enjoyment of Christ after the NT time until WL.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think many LSM LC saints believe that there was no enjoyment of Christ after the NT time until WL.

Given some of the things that are heralded as "enjoyment of Christ," they may have been right. But in reality, there has always been joy in Christ. No one owns it.

[JJ]

The music issue being discussed in this thread is a good example of many unnecessary "straight jackets" in "the Lords Recovery" (TLR) that can be seen through by careful scripture reading. I suspect blindness to legalism versus nefarious motives in the earlier days of TLR. These were never washed out of the Living Stream Ministry. I have met a few TLR "saints" who listen to contemporary Christian music outside of the meetings. So, it is not universal.

It is hard to know what was in the heart of Witness Lee related to "kibash" on singing Psalms, but I'd like to offer this insight:

1) About 1981, when he was giving the "Summer Training" in Anaheim (those "messages" were compiled into the Life Study of 1 Corinthians), I remember him expressing frustration with the younger saints for singing so many songs with words from Psalms such as "His mercy endures forever". He said this not because that statement isn't true, but because New Testament (NT) believers have so much more of the truth that has been revealed in NT writings to praise God with. During the "Winter Training" that year, the Living Stream Ministry had quite a few young saints present new songs Lee had asked them to compose using exact words from 1 Corinthians, and in some cases Lee's footnotes and surprisingly modern music (to me).

2) Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music many times. And, piano and guitar were the only instruments I ever saw used in meetings. The longer I observed what was going on in the recovery (from inside and outside) for many years, I came to the conclusion that Lee had adopted many things from his Brethren experience, what he learned from Nee, and from many truly spiritual saints who came into "the recovery who had non-biblical legalism regarding music and many other things, and really didn't know any better. But, this is just conjecture (God knows the heart).

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by JJ

The music issue being discussed in this thread is a good example of many unnecessary "straight jackets" in "the Lords Recovery" (TLR) that can be seen through by careful scripture reading. I suspect blindness to legalism versus nefarious motives in the earlier days of TLR. These were never washed out of the Living Stream Ministry. I have met a few TLR "saints" who listen to contemporary Christian music outside of the meetings. So, it is not universal.

Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music many times. And, piano and guitar were the only instruments I ever saw used in meetings. The longer I observed what was going on in the recovery (from inside and outside) for many years, I came to the conclusion that Lee had adopted many things from his Brethren experience, what he learned from Nee, and from many truly spiritual saints who came into "the recovery who had non-biblical legalism regarding music and many other things, and really didn't know any better. But, this is just conjecture (God knows the heart).

Excellent observation JJ! Yes, I can testify that Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music. Actually he spoke rather strongly about not letting ANY "non-essential" divide the Church or the churches. The problem is that he ended up elevating many non-essentials - many teachings and practices established by himself - above the teachings and practices described and prescribed in the New Testament. To this very day, we see the affects of this in the teachings and practices in the Local Church.

-

[OBW]

And of course, the way to avoid having any division in the church is to give everyone a uniform, a schedule, and a defined group of "companions" with no deviation. Provide a ten-pound reference manual that is to be consulted on even the proper way to place socks in a drawer.

Perfect conformity will result in perfect unity. (Gag me with a spoon.) And those who will not conform must not be chosen by God, so their exit is expected and welcome. Only the true followers of the oracle of Lee should remain.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by JJ

2) Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music many times. And, piano and guitar were the only instruments I ever saw used in meetings. The longer I observed what was going on in the recovery (from inside and outside) for many years, I came to the conclusion that Lee had adopted many things from his Brethren experience, what he learned from Nee, and from many truly spiritual saints who came into "the recovery who had non-biblical legalism regarding music and many other things, and really didn't know any better. But, this is just conjecture (God knows the heart).

If Witness Lee was true to his Brethren background, there would be no piano, guitar, or any other musical instruments.
In regard to music, I think Lee didn't want any competition for his ministry. That is why we saw Howard Highashi's composing put to a stop. It wasn't until after his death did LSM began re-releasing hymns he composed.

[NewManLiving]

What about NYCYPCD songs? Very well done, orchestrated, Vessels of Mercy is one of my favorite CDs. Not all of them are ministry centered. A good deal are Christ-centered love/worship compositions. Apparently, if my memory serves me, a brother in New York is a music major - am I correct? I see him on YouTube. Appears to have other interests as well. They also have a radio station and app - Hymns Radio

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

What about NYCYPCD songs? Very well done, orchestrated, Vessels of Mercy is one of my favorite CDs. Not all of them are ministry centered. A good deal are Christ-centered love/worship compositions. Apparently, if my memory serves me, a brother in New York is a music major - am I correct? I see him on YouTube. Appears to have other interests as well. They also have a radio station and app - Hymns Radio

That reminds me that when I was in the recovery I liked the NYCYPCD (and other localities) much more than the LSM sponsored tapes which sounded stilted and too professional. Anymore I think that anything that LSM touches gets killed or deadened.

[NewManLiving]

I still use the RC Bible as I really do enjoy it - even the footnotes at times when I need a quick reference ( don't always agree with them ). Anyway I ordered the audio bible from them a couple of years ago. Could not listen for long. it seemed like the reader had no feelings one way or the other - very monotone - could have been because of the poor quality of the recording.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

That reminds me that when I was in the recovery I liked the NYCYPCD (and other localities) much more than the LSM sponsored tapes which sounded stilted and too professional. Anymore I think that anything that LSM touches gets killed or deadened.

I am still surprised that LSM didn't try to shut down NYCYPCD. Not that they could, but it seems like it would have been an easy target.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent observation JJ! Yes, I can testify that Witness Lee spoke of avoiding divisions over music. Actually he spoke rather strongly about not letting ANY "non-essential" divide the Church or the churches. The problem is that he ended up elevating many non-essentials - many teachings and practices established by himself - above the teachings and practices described and prescribed in the New Testament. To this very day, we see the affects of this in the teachings and practices in the Local Church.

-

The leaven of the Pharisees was to add to God's word things they thought one must do to please God, and wash the outside of the cup while leaving the inside full of dead things. The leaven of the Saducees was to not believe and preach the whole word (leaving out what they didn't like). The leaven of the brother in Corinth was to practice evil and boast about it.

What specific leaven can you say is the most important to purge out of "the lump" in TLR today?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I still use the RC Bible as I really do enjoy it - even the footnotes at times when I need a quick reference ( don't always agree with them ). Anyway I ordered the audio bible from them a couple of years ago. Could not listen for long. it seemed like the reader had no feelings one way or the other - very monotone - could have been because of the poor quality of the recording.

Yes, I also still use the RC Bible too, but not exclusively. I use Nestle's Greek interlinear and other versions (Blue Letter Bible and Bible Gateway, both on line, are fantastic to see how others have translated and commented on God's wonderful word).

There is no way God's word should be taken in a deadpan way..... too exciting (joy unspeakable and full of glory!).

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I am still surprised that LSM didn't try to shut down NYCYPCD. Not that they could, but it seems like it would have been an easy target.

I don't know anything about NYCPCD. Can you tell me what it is, and why it is so good?

[NewManLiving]

If I recall correctly, NYCYPCD (New York City Young People CD) is based in the Church In New York. Their earlier music was standard LC hymns or supplemental music ( when the supplement was around). Over the last couple of years they have become quite polished and have incorporated an orchestra. Those that play instruments are very good - even expert. I believe one of the ( elders ?) in NY arranges and coordinates their music ministry. They have kept the generic name NYCYPCD. They only released one CD under the the label Vessels of Mercy. I was so helped by this CD and noticed that they never played anything from it on their Hymns Radio. So I sent an e-mail asking why. Their response was that they (Vessels of Mercy) do not wish to be on the radio. However, the singers to me appear to be the same or a subset of those on the NYCYPCD so I do not know what is going on there. They never did release another CD under that label but continue to do so under the NYCYPCD label. You can find their music on ITunes , Google etc. much of it is on YouTube. The recent recordings are very good. You can create a playlist of some excellent worship and love songs for yourself and skip over the ministry songs. Although there are not all that many die-hard ministry songs

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

I don't know anything about NYCPCD. Can you tell me what it is, and why it is so good?

NewManLiving pretty much summed it up. I wouldn't say that the NYCYPCD music was my taste, but the quality of the arrangements was better than anything LSM put out. They also used instruments besides piano and guitar.

The music itself was acceptable for LCers as it didn't feature any strong rhythmic arrangements or things like electric guitar.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by JJ

What specific leaven can you say is the most important to purge out of "the lump" in TLR today?

Excellent question. After all these years out of the Movement (about 20yrs now) my observation and experience tells me that it is different things for different people. For one brother or sister the leaven may be certain practices, such as pray-reading or calling on the Lord, which actually may hinder their growth in the Lord. For another brother or sister it may be the inability to meditate on the Word without the use of "the ministry" or the RCV footnotes. For another it may be the inability to worship or receive anything significant from the Lord without being in a corporate setting.

Of course the most significant leaven, in my view, is the over estimation and appreciation for the person and work of Witness Lee. In my observation and experience, this is also the hardest thing to "purge" from the heart and minds of Local Churchers, especially those who have been in the Movement for any significant period of time. So much of "the glorious church life" was/is based upon and intertwined with Lee's person (his special place and authority among the members) and Lee's work (aka The Ministry). Outwardly, most LC members strongly deny any such dynamic exists, but when you hear them speak, individually or in the meetings, their constant gushing out of appreciation and even adoration for Lee and his ministry belies any denial of what is so painfully obvious to even the most casual observer.

Finally, the purging of the leaven takes time...lots and lots of time. After 20 years I'm still purging. For some of us, some leaven was so ingrained within our hearts and minds, we will probably take it to our graves. The best and most effective purging comes from God himself. "The washing of the water with the Word".(Eph 5:26) Praise Him! We have the Spirit and we have the Word! And we have each other. This is what this forum is all about.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent question. After all these years out of the Movement (about 20yrs now) my observation and experience tells me that it is different things for different people. For one brother or sister the leaven may be certain practices, such as pray-reading or calling on the Lord, which actually may hinder their growth in the Lord. For another brother or sister it may be the inability to meditate on the Word without the use of "the ministry" or the RCV footnotes. For another it may be the inability to worship or receive anything significant from the Lord without being in a corporate setting.

Of course the most significant leaven, in my view, is the over estimation and appreciation for the person and work of Witness Lee. In my observation and experience, this is also the hardest thing to "purge" from the heart and minds of Local Churchers, especially those who have been in the Movement for any significant period of time. So much of "the glorious church life" was/is based upon and intertwined with Lee's person (his special place and authority among the members) and Lee's work (aka The Ministry). Outwardly, most LC members strongly deny any such dynamic exists, but when you hear them speak, individually or in the meetings, their constant gushing out of appreciation and even adoration for Lee and his ministry belies any denial of what is so painfully obvious to even the most casual observer.

Finally, the purging of the leaven takes time...lots and lots of time. After 20 years I'm still purging. For some of us, some leaven was so ingrained within our hearts and minds, we will probably take it to our graves. The best and most effective purging comes from God himself. "The washing of the water with the Word".(Eph 5:26) Praise Him! We have the Spirit and we have the Word! And we have each other. This is what this forum is all about.

Thanks, Unto Him. I agree with your answer, with exception to totally throwing out calling on the Lord and pray reading. Both have biblical basis, and when biblically practiced render much benefit. But, I have thrown out mindless and Spiritless calling on the Lord and pray-reading, and thinking they are the magical answer to all that has been promoted and too often practiced in the Lord's recovery. I like to ask Jesus into my every situation and thought by invoking His name, and taking the word by means of all prayer and petition to this day (also after being out for many years).

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

If I recall correctly, NYCYPCD (New York City Young People CD) is based in the Church In New York. Their earlier music was standard LC hymns or supplemental music ( when the supplement was around). Over the last couple of years they have become quite polished and have incorporated an orchestra. Those that play instruments are very good - even expert. I believe one of the ( elders ?) in NY arranges and coordinates their music ministry. They have kept the generic name NYCYPCD. They only released one CD under the the label Vessels of Mercy. I was so helped by this CD and noticed that they never played anything from it on their Hymns Radio. So I sent an e-mail asking why. Their response was that they (Vessels of Mercy) do not wish to be on the radio. However, the singers to me appear to be the same or a subset of those on the NYCYPCD so I do not know what is going on there. They never did release another CD under that label but continue to do so under the NYCYPCD label. You can find their music on ITunes , Google etc. much of it is on YouTube. The recent recordings are very good. You can create a playlist of some excellent worship and love songs for yourself and skip over the ministry songs. Although there are not all that many die-hard ministry songs

Thanks for the explanation. I checked them out. Yes, their current music is definitely from the Hymnal and song books of the Local Churches.

[Freedom]

Does anyone know if WL spoke anything specific about music? I am curious what he had to say if he did. I am certainly aware of the LC stigmas about non-sanctioned music and instruments. I have played guitar in LC meetings for a long time.

It seems to me that those of us who have participated in LC music services have tried to make the best of a less-than-desirable setting. What I mean by that is embellishing the music in a way that makes it 'enjoyable', yet keeping things under the radar. Music is music. Those in the LC who legalize music are ignorant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent question. After all these years out of the Movement (about 20yrs now) my observation and experience tells me that it is different things for different people.

Of course the most significant leaven, in my view, is the over estimation and appreciation for the person and work of Witness Lee.

Finally, the purging of the leaven takes time...lots and lots of time. After 20 years I'm still purging. For some of us, some leaven was so ingrained within our hearts and minds, we will probably take it to our graves.

I would supplement your description of leaven to include judgmentalism and elitism, both ingredients of Laodicean pride.

Originally Posted by JJ

Thanks, Unto Him. I agree with your answer, with exception to totally throwing out calling on the Lord and pray reading. Both have biblical basis, and when biblically practiced render much benefit. But, I have thrown out mindless and Spiritless calling on the Lord and pray-reading, and thinking they are the magical answer to all that has been promoted and too often practiced in the Lord's recovery. I like to ask Jesus into my every situation and thought by invoking His name, and taking the word by means of all prayer and petition to this day (also after being out for many years).

I definitely agree with JJ's observation of calling on the Lord. Here in the GLA, we had older brothers who warned about such vain practices, and I thank the Lord for that. But for those in the LCM who vainly, robotically, and mechanically chanted the Lord's name in choral unison at trainings without any reality, it would be best to chuck that practice completely.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Does anyone know if WL spoke anything specific about music? I am curious what he had to say if he did. I am certainly aware of the LC stigmas about non-sanctioned music and instruments. I have played guitar in LC meetings for a long time.

It seems to me that those of us who have participated in LC music services have tried to make the best of a less-than-desirable setting. What I mean by that is embellishing the music in a way that makes it 'enjoyable', yet keeping things under the radar. Music is music. Those in the LC who legalize music are ignorant.

I was in a locality where a young brother wanted to play the drums and a elder said it will never happen. I don't think LSM sanctions drum playing. But, then I heard of a majority Hispanic locality that was into tambourines and the dear saints ignored the lily white elder who tried to ban the tambourines.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I was in a locality where a young brother wanted to play the drums and a elder said it will never happen. I don't think LSM sanctions drum playing. But, then I heard of a majority Hispanic locality that was into tambourines and the dear saints ignored the lily white elder who tried to ban the tambourines.

Part of Titus Chu's quarantine can be attributed to allowing drums and electric guitars in the young people's gatherings.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Part of Titus Chu's quarantine can be attributed to allowing drums and electric guitars in the young people's gatherings.

The Lord Jesus is much bigger than the lords recovery.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Part of Titus Chu's quarantine can be attributed to allowing drums and electric guitars in the young people's gatherings.

I attended a "ministry meeting" in the mid 2000's where Ed Marks went on a rant saying that the apostle Paul didn't carry an electric guitar around with him (in candid reference to the mid-west situation). I remember thinking to myself, "well Paul didn't carry an acoustic guitar around either..."

The blended logic simply doesn't work. The only reason that they get away with it is because members are afraid to confront them.

[NewManLiving]

There are many things that the Apostle Paul would not even think about doing that are currently being practiced in the LCM churches. But back to music, the South Korean churches (not sure if they are still LSM organizational churches) as is their culture, are full of musicians since many learn to play an instrument from their youth. I recall seeing a photo many years ago, looked more like a classical recital than a meeting.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I attended a "ministry meeting" in the mid 2000's where Ed Marks went on a rant saying that the apostle Paul didn't carry an electric guitar around with him (in candid reference to the mid-west situation). I remember thinking to myself, "well Paul didn't carry an acoustic guitar around either..."

This forum is filled with things that Lee did and the apostle Paul did not do:

• Like placing the Prodigal Son in charge of his ministry
• Like suing outsiders over doctrines and insiders over real estate
• Like quarantining workers who refuse subjugation
• Like using the children of God to build your empire
• Like lies, coverups, slanders, and backstabbing to protect your reputation

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

There are many things that the Apostle Paul would not even think about doing that are currently being practiced in the LCM churches. But back to music, the South Korean churches (not sure if they are still LSM organizational churches) as is their culture, are full of musicians since many learn to play an instrument from their youth. I recall seeing a photo many years ago, looked more like a classical recital than a meeting.

Back in the '70's TC told us about the saints in Brazil using electric guitars and tambourines. Egads!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Back in the '70's TC told us about the saints in Brazil using electric guitars and tambourines. Egads!

It's the drums that's evil.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

It's the drums that's evil.

Pianos ... however ... are ... by definition ... "holy and spiritual."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Pianos ... however ... are ... by definition ... "holy and spiritual."

When I attended the semi-annual trainings, there was piano and organ accompaniment for the singing. It was the only LC setting where I ever saw the organ played. When I first saw it, it threw me off, because I had assumed that the LC had done away with "religious traditions".

Of course the piano is traditional, but the organ is archetypal with respect to tradition.

[NewManLiving]

Something that really needs to be thrown out is the insistence on LSM organizational churches to make all their adherents look Asian. And no offense to my dear Asian brothers and sisters - could be any ethnic group. I could never figure this one out. What obvious fleshy nonsense. I guess if WL was Slovik everyone would have a beard. I was perusing the Internet earlier and came across some of the churches in Africa. Some of the pictures showed a couple of people in colorful African dress beating on wooden drums. I immediately thought to myself 'Now that's going to be a challenge'. Of course they pulled it off in India when they went in and "took over" several hundred local churches that were originally planted by the Holy Spirit, turning them into dead business churches. Now all these deceived ones look Asian. It's almost alien when you think about it. All these clones running around with smart phones thinking God had handed over Babylon to them But humor aside, what gets into people to make them so extreme? Thinking that a rational man will see something glorious about their presence and behavior. I remember a friend/brother, here at Yale telling me that the LC saints wanted to use him since he was so Caucasian looking. The problem is not that there are a lot of Asians in the LC, but rather that they want every convert to look like one also.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Something that really needs to be thrown out is the insistence on LSM organizational churches to make all their adherents look Asian. And no offense to my dear Asian brothers and sisters - could be any ethnic group. I could never figure this one out. What obvious fleshy nonsense. I guess if WL was Slovik everyone would have a beard. I was perusing the Internet earlier and came across some of the churches in Africa. Some of the pictures showed a couple of people in colorful African dress beating on wooden drums. I immediately thought to myself 'Now that's going to be a challenge'. Of course they pulled it off in India when they went in and "took over" several hundred local churches that were originally planted by the Holy Spirit, turning them into dead business churches. Now all these deceived ones look Asian. It's almost alien when you think about it. All these clones running around with smart phones thinking God had handed over Babylon to them But humor aside, what gets into people to make them so extreme? Thinking that a rational man will see something glorious about their presence and behavior. I remember a friend/brother, here at Yale telling me that the LC saints wanted to use him since he was so Caucasian looking. The problem is not that there are a lot of Asians in the LC, but rather that they want every convert to look like one also.

White shirts with skinny ties and a buttoned up sweater is a common uniform. I've also noticed that some of the more absolute brothers say the word "Lord" with a nasal quality like WL did. Kind of like "lard". But, I guess we all imitate somebody, just wish I was a better imitator of Christ (not in the outward appearance way).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

White shirts with skinny ties and . . . .

The brief youth rebellion that arose from the Berkley conference back in 77(?) included a mocking of the structured ways of the regulars. They came back with a little jingle that had the following words:

White shirt, skinny tie, briefcase and wing-tipped shoes.

Lasted all of about one weekend. The leadership everywhere put the foot down.

Oh No! Not the foot!
"The foot is down! Disaster averted."
"Well that was a disaster."

[NewManLiving]

It took me years to even trust anyone with facial hair. Can't believe that I actually became so deceived. It does not surprise me that they actually practiced door-knocking like the JW and LDS. Finally I got to see the love for the Lord and the normal life that many Christians outside the LC have. And yes they have the so-called High Peak gospel. Of course they stay away from the becoming God part of it. Not sure if Lee got it right on that one. "Partaker" is not exactly "Become". But the real proof is the fruit of it all. You are not becoming God in life and nature when you elevate a man over the headship of Christ, continue to lie and slander innocent brothers and sisters, control people, love only those who are sold out for the ministry, go on campus to get the "good material" for more knowledge and better income potential - the list can go on and on. You will know them by their fruit. So what kind of fruit is that?

May the Lord have mercy on those within the LC that are truly His alone and deliver them from such bondage.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

It took me years to even trust anyone with facial hair.

That's funny.

I remember years ago (1979?) Titus Chu visited us in Columbus for a conference of sorts. A dear brother BR from Willoughby just happened to visit one evening. The brother had grown a beard since the last time I saw him. Titus noticed it and launched into a his "burden" about how growing a beard indicates our heart has grown cold towards the Lord. Everyone knew whom he was speaking to. Such was life under the "ministry" of Titus Chu.

Years later in 2003 I began studying the British Brethren movement in an attempt to understand what had happened to my beloved Recovery. I obtained a book Chief Men Among the Brethren, one hundred short bios of their influential brothers with pics. I quickly noticed that 90% of them had beards. How could this be? Didn't bearded men have cold hearts?

Being "slow of heart" like those on the road to Emmaus who took hours to recognize Jesus, I finally came to realize how culture determines one's spirituality. Chinese people can't grow nice beards, so Chinese ministers deemed them nonspiritual. British folks grow nice beards, so British ministers deemed them spiritual. Simple as that!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

It took me years to even trust anyone with facial hair. Can't believe that I actually became so deceived. It does not surprise me that they actually practiced door-knocking like the JW and LDS. Finally I got to see the love for the Lord and the normal life that many Christians outside the LC have. And yes they have the so-called High Peak gospel. Of course they stay away from the becoming God part of it. Not sure if Lee got it right on that one. "Partaker" is not exactly "Become". But the real proof is the fruit of it all. You are not becoming God in life and nature when you elevate a man over the headship of Christ, continue to lie and slander innocent brothers and sisters, control people, love only those who are sold out for the ministry, go on campus to get the "good material" for more knowledge and better income potential - the list can go on and on. You will know them by their fruit. So what kind of fruit is that?

May the Lord have mercy on those within the LC that are truly His alone and deliver them from such bondage.

A while ago (when I showed some promise, I guess) I was invited to a regional "Brothers" meeting by an elder. At that time I was sporting a wanna-be handlebar stache. During a break in the men's room a brother asked if I was a serving one on campus or somehow thought I was working with college kids. I told him no. At lunch a couple of weeks after that I told the elder that I wanted to grow the biggest handlebar stache in the recovery! He laughted and told me some brother in the Midwest had me beat. I was joking and he did not take the bait. I did a word search in the ministry and could never find anything negative written about beards, even though I had picked up bad vibes from the saints about beards. There are a lot of unwritten codes and rules in the recovery...sometimes I think it has become a recovery of legalism and judgement. But, what do I know, I'm just a backsliding opposer destined for the 1,000 year summer school (I'll probably meet WL there!).

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's funny.

I remember years ago (1979?) Titus Chu visited us in Columbus for a conference of sorts. A dear brother BR from Willoughby just happened to visit one evening...

You hit the nail right on the head! Look at the culture during the time of our Lord. Many, if not all had facial hair. I have many writings of our early British brothers. They all had beards. I believe that Tozer had a mustache. The Lord has created such variety. Just look at the universe around us, watch any animal/nature related documentary, take a walk in the woods. The colors and varieties are all unique and wonderful. I'm afraid that the LC has completely mis-aimed, choosing instead to accept the culture and look of one Chinese brother as the standard for everyone. Quite frankly, I don't think that any WL co-workers would have been allowed to have facial hair simply because he did not like it. That can be assumed by Titus Chu's remarks. Now who really had the cold heart? Perhaps Titus should grow some facial hair.
I grieve each day for the wonderful freedom that once was in the LC only because the Lord honored and blessed those who had a true heart for Him alone. As you well know most of us did and we were unaware of the snake slithering in the garden until he was confident enough to reveal himself. By that time anyone who tried to resist him was "quarantined"

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by HERn

A while ago (when I showed some promise, I guess) I was invited to a regional "Brothers" meeting by an elder. At that time I was sporting a wanna-be handlebar stache. During a break in the men's room a brother asked if I was a serving one on campus or somehow thought I was working with college kids. I told him no. At lunch a couple of weeks after that I told the elder that I wanted to grow the biggest handlebar stache in the recovery! He laughted and told me some brother in the Midwest had me beat. I was joking and he did not take the bait...

That was refreshing. We used to wait to see how long it took the Lord?????? to "touch" someone so that they cut their hair, shaved off every bit of facial hair, parted their hair on the same side as WL, and put on the proper uniform. Then we would greet them praising the Lord for such a wonderful transformation. I went through this and looking back it had more to do with peer pressure than the Lord's direct speaking. Unfortunately this concept is taken to the extreme in the belief that getting the ministry "into" you will dispense God into you. They have a "processed God" who is metabolically changed just to transform you into God through WL's ministry. This is serious! These people actually believe this. If it were not for some of the genuine love songs produced by New York's young people , I could not be sure that any love was left for the Lord Himself in the LSM LC. And where is the growth in life? You go to the FTT with possibly some love for the Lord and come out with a big head and a little heart. This is NOT Christ nor is it becoming God any way you look at it. I have studied them for years and I do not see any growth in God's life at all. It's all about the ministry

[Terry]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

That was refreshing. We used to wait to see how long it took the Lord?????? to "touch" someone so that they cut their hair, shaved off every bit of facial hair, parted their hair on the same side as WL, and put on the proper uniform. Then we would greet them praising the Lord for such a wonderful transformation. I went through this and looking back it had more to do with peer pressure than the Lord's direct speaking.

Just to be different, I'd grow facial hair. When it came to wearing dress shirts to the LTM, anything but a white dress shirt.
I mentioned to a brother living with my family about the peer pressure. It's an underlying problem, It's not much different than what college students are faced with.....fitting into a group. In the local churches, it conforming to the group think. If you don't conform, be prepared to be cast out.
I heard stories about the burnings at the beaches. I'm sure peer pressure was at work. Even the matter of watching or not watching tv was a product of peer pressure. During the 1980's it was whether or not to send your high schoolers to Young People Conferences. Peer pressure at work to gauge your oneness. Even now with the Full Time training, it's peer pressure. What if a young brother or sister doesn't want to go, does it make them any less a brother or sister. With the same logic, if a brother or sister goes (peer pressure influenced or not), does it make them any more a brother or sister.
Given reactions I have seen, yes it does. What it means, yes we do make distinctions based on FTTA.
Inwardly, whether we go, don't go to the trainings, stay or leave the local church, if we're regenerated, we have been bought with the blood of Jesus Christ.

[NewManLiving]

I remember a few burnings. Another extreme misinterpretation of Scripture. Not like we practiced magic and sorcery and had to get rid of related books. Is this still practiced? Things like this happen when a group of extremists get together. This has nothing to do with absoluteness for God. It is yet another example of an extreme work of the flesh. Thankfully I don't recall burning anything like family pictures, a thought that never crossed my mind. I read stories about saints that did this in front of their children - the very ones in the pictures. How sad that even then they were not able to follow God-given prudence and reason.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I remember a few burnings. Another extreme misinterpretation of Scripture.

This has nothing to do with absoluteness for God. It is yet another example of an extreme work of the flesh.

I have read a few testimonies from those who burnt wedding and baby pics, and now have life-long regrets.

Peer-pressure thrives in legalistic settings. Just another example of LSM robbing the children of God of their liberty in Christ Jesus.

[UntoHim]

At least today LC brothers and sisters can upload their pictures to the cloud where they can't be burnt. Same goes for this forum!

[JJ]

A web site that is helpful to check to see if our legalism is scriptural or not.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/10...ament-commands

I don't see anything about no beards, white shirts, ties, no dancing, no entertainment, no sports, no music. But, there is a lot that is truly exposing. Truly these are the things we should be focusing on.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

A web site that is helpful to check to see if our legalism is scriptural or not.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/10...ament-commands

I don't see anything about no beards, white shirts, ties, no dancing, no entertainment, no sports, no music. But, there is a lot that is truly exposing. Truly these are the things we should be focusing on.

The LC is a place that has a bad reputation for legalism. This all is in spite of a common theme of WL's ministry, that is, "Christ vs. Religion". I was thinking about this recently, and I had to ask myself, if WL was so intently focus on throwing out "religion", how did he so quickly and successfully create his own religion?

I have to think that much of it is that those in the LC don't apply the same standards to themselves as everyone else. In a church were clergy wear a cassock, that might be characterized as 'traditional' or 'dead'. But if there is an unspoken dress code in the LC of suits and ties, that isn't seen as even being the least bit traditional. In the LC, they like to arrange the chairs a certain way. They criticize churches that have the chairs all facing in one direction (even though that is how LSM trainings are). There are just so many examples. The reality is simply that legalism is legalism. Those in the LC need to realize that they must check everything against scripture. The Bible doesn't mention pianos, white shirts and ties, chair arrangement or any of that other nonsense.

[HERn]

I want to testify that I am so happy to be in a real local church. I'm getting to know several people. The Lord is so active. One brother meets on Friday nights with people from the Salvation Army where he preaches and ministers (he is a layman), another brother runs a satellite tv service broadcasting the gospel and programs in Arabic, a sister is working with exploited children mainly girls, another brother is allowing a couple of people to live with them as they try to start a new church in a different denomination, two sisters organize MOPS mothers of preschool children ministry where the moms can meet for bible study and fellowship with daycare provided. I'm sorry, but the so-called recovery is impoverished compared to what the Lord is doing in His "other" churches. Why are they so blinded, narrow, and judgmental?

[UntoHim]

Thanks HERn for your encouraging testimony. It's always good to hear what the Lord is doing out there in "poor, poor, Christianity"

Seriously though, the simple truth is that God has been working through, in and among his people since the beginning about 2,000 years ago. He has NEVER stopped. Remember, our Lord's words: "I will build my Church". Only people like Witness Lee have ever made it seem like God wasn't keeping his promise. Another simple truth is that the people who are the biggest hindrance are the people who are trying so hard to help God out in his efforts. Well he doesn't really need our efforts - - "as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25,27) It is Christ that did the giving himself up, and it is Christ who is going to do the presenting of his Church to himself.

How does all this practically work itself out? Well I think for starters it has to do with the things such as HERn has related to us in his testimony. This is how God is practically building and presenting his Church to himself, and NOT among people who sit all cooped up in a meeting hall declaring that "WE are the Church" and other fruitless, meaningless notions.
-

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

I want to testify that I am so happy to be in a real local church. I'm getting to know several people. The Lord is so active. One brother meets on Friday nights with people from the Salvation Army where he preaches and ministers (he is a layman), another brother runs a satellite tv service broadcasting the gospel and programs in Arabic, a sister is working with exploited children mainly girls, another brother is allowing a couple of people to live with them as they try to start a new church in a different denomination, two sisters organize MOPS mothers of preschool children ministry where the moms can meet for bible study and fellowship with daycare provided. I'm sorry, but the so-called recovery is impoverished compared to what the Lord is doing in His "other" churches. Why are they so blinded, narrow, and judgmental?

I've witnessed the same sorts of functioning of the many parts of the body in my community church, and true oneness with all other genuine believers in the City over the essentials of the faith, regardless of where they attend (that is much more biblical than what I see in today's "recovery").

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks HERn for your encouraging testimony. It's always good to hear what the Lord is doing out there in "poor, poor, Christianity"

Seriously though, the simple truth is that God has been working through, in and among his people since the beginning about 2,000 years ago. He has NEVER stopped. Remember, our Lord's words: "I will build my Church". Only people like Witness Lee have ever made it seem like God wasn't keeping his promise. Another simple truth is that the people who are the biggest hindrance are the people who are trying so hard to help God out in his efforts. Well he doesn't really need our efforts - - "as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25,27) It is Christ that did the giving himself up, and it is Christ who is going to do the presenting of his Church to himself.

How does all this practically work itself out? Well I think for starters it has to do with the things such as HERn has related to us in his testimony. This is how God is practically building and presenting his Church to himself, and NOT among people who sit all cooped up in a meeting hall declaring that "WE are the Church" and other fruitless, meaningless notions.
-

I wholeheartedly agree with Witness Lee's vision of God's building, and applaud his trumpeting of this biblical truth (the Bible is filled with God's plan to build the church, and doing it universally and locally). It just seems that the biblical means of building (in love) and purpose to glorify God (versus worship of the church) has been lost. Understanding what god-men really look like has been lost (Jesus is the model: not grasping god-hood, becoming in fashion as a man, serving men, and dying for them)

[UntoHim]

I don't think many Christians would have any problem with Lee's "vision" of the church. After all, much of it is based upon the New Testament. The problem comes in the practical implementation, execution and administration of such a vision. Just for starters, consider the matter of the appointment of elders. Since the beginnings of the Local Church movement, elders have been chosen not solely upon their biblical qualifications, but at least partially upon their loyalty to a certain man and his personal ministry. At first, in Mainland China, it was loyalty to the person and work of Watchman Nee. Upon Nee's demise, Witness Lee took over as "the wise master builder". Even to this day, there is little doubt that the Local Church movement is based upon the person and work of Witness Lee. To this day, elders are appointed based largely on their loyalty and strict adherence to Lee's ministry.

One of the slogans of this vision was/is "administration local, each answering to the Lord". This is absolutely biblical. The problem is that this has never really been practiced in any meaningful sense, and even when certain brothers or localities tried to actually put this into practice, they were quickly shot down by Witness Lee, or after his death, they were harshly censored or even "quarantined" by his hand-chosen "continuation", the Blended brothers.

This is just one aspect of how this vision is practically implemented. There are many others and this forum is filled with lots of them.
-

[NewManLiving]

The ground of locality as a doctrine is a big problem since all it does is basically divide and/or conquer. Look at what happened in the early assemblies in New York. After Stephen Kaung could not accept the doctrine of the dirt because he felt it was divisive, WL and company just took over, working on certain individuals and possibly relatives (If I recall correctly) to achieve their take-over. This same scenario played out in India when local churches sprang up apart from LSM. They began to infiltrate and take-over. Again, when their legalistic or unethical policies caused division in one of their former business churches, they practiced this same evil. Please show me otherwise. I don't think that WL got it right on the ground issue. It does not bear fruit of the kind that would be pleasing to the Lord. Any more proof would be the authors of "ground" confusion themselves: The Exclusive Brethren. All these have failed. So where is the blessing?
I have not seen or read of any such thing in the assemblies of brother Kaung, another co-worker of WN. They are very sober and on guard against man-worship and legalism. Possibly due to the fact that Stephen had the opportunity to examine it for decades seeing this trend both in WN and WL. This is what the evidence shows! We are allowed to use our minds and examine each fruit. If I'm wrong I stand to be corrected but we do not have to accept things blindly.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The ground of locality as a doctrine is a big problem since all it does is basically divide and/or conquer. Look at what happened in the early assemblies in New York. After Stephen Kaung could not accept the doctrine of the dirt because he felt it was divisive, WL and company just took over, working on certain individuals and possibly relatives (If I recall correctly) to achieve their take-over.

The title of this post is "Our Past History". If you go to http://www.christiantapeministry.com/ there's a message given in 2012 by Stephen Kaung by the title "Our Past History". Regarding Witness Lee specifically, Stephen Kaung speaking in love indicated though he knew Witness Lee's motive still invited Witness Lee to NYC (probably in mid-1960's).

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

The title of this post is "Our Past History". If you go to http://www.christiantapeministry.com/ there's a message given in 2012 by Stephen Kaung by the title "Our Past History". Regarding Witness Lee specifically, Stephen Kaung speaking in love indicated though he knew Witness Lee's motive still invited Witness Lee to NYC (probably in mid-1960's).

There is another thread (I wish I could remember) where I make a rough transcript of this message where Kaung discusses his relationship with WL. I found his side of the story to be quite enlightening as to what really happened between him and Lee. As you said, he knew that WL wanted to take over yet he was still willing to work with him.

Something that I wish LC members could come to understand is that there are other groups out there who share the same view that WN taught, however, they simply can't allow a business located in Anaheim, CA to run their church.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Something that I wish LC members could come to understand is that there are other groups out there who share the same view that WN taught, however, they simply can't allow a business located in Anaheim, CA to run their church.

How does this work if you're not taking LSM publications, you're not on the proper ground?

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Something that I wish LC members could come to understand is that there are other groups out there who share the same view that WN taught, however, they simply can't allow a business located in Anaheim, CA to run their church.

These "other" groups are not lacking in the so-called High-Peak Truths as LSM would have you to believe -just WL particular slant on "Truth", minus all the LC lingo such as "Processed God" and the like. Terms like this de-personalize God giving Him the same personality as a kitchen blender. Let's face it; this terminology is odd and I for one was never comfortable with it even while I was in the LC. I could never bring myself to thank the Lord because He was processed, although I do not have any issue with what it means.

When the Apostle Paul was saved he did not confer with flesh and blood for three years. He goes on to tell us of receiving direct revelation from the Lord Himself as an Apostle who has "seen" The Lord. The evidence of this is the profound revelations of the mysteries of God and Christ that were revealed to him and that he passes on to us in his unique letters. Not once does he describe these mysteries using strange terminology. I don't believe that the Lord ever told Paul that He was "processed" or that Paul must "Take the ground" or that Paul must understand the "Seven-fold intensified Spirit". Take away the strange lingo and the LC has nothing more than what has already been revealed and known by other groups. With the LC there is the additional layer of mysticism - thus their man becoming God teachings. However most of the Mystics taught oneness and union of will and not "becoming God".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

The title of this post is "Our Past History". If you go to http://www.christiantapeministry.com/ there's a message given in 2012 by Stephen Kaung by the title "Our Past History". Regarding Witness Lee specifically, Stephen Kaung speaking in love indicated though he knew Witness Lee's motive still invited Witness Lee to NYC (probably in mid-1960's).

I'm re-posting on this thread some of what Stephen Kaung spoke in that message. The original thread is here: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5346

Originally Posted by Stephen Kaung

While we were there meeting together [in New York], we invited Brother Lee to come visit us once a year, because we had been working together for many years. I knew him in 1933 when he first came and joined Watchman Nee. I was in college then, and he helped me a lot. After I joined with Brother Nee in 1935, we worked together in China. Afterwards, I was in the Philippines, he was in Taiwan. After I came to this country, he came. As a matter of fact, it was New York that helped to get him his permanent residency. We had been working for so many years.

Unfortunately there was some misunderstanding. There were rumors around, but the main point was, we began to have different ideas about the church.

When he [Lee] came to New York, he told me, “You have to call yourselves the church in New York”. I said “No. We cannot do that, because we are only about 200 people, and there are so many of God's people in New York. How can we claim that we are the church in New York? We have to testify for the local church, but we cannot claim ourselves as being the local church.” He said “If you don’t claim you are the church, then there is no church.”

So he tried to take over. I knew what he was doing, but we still invited him to come. I remember the last time we invited him.

I told the brothers who were with me: “If we send a letter to invite him to come, we cannot limit him as to what he can talk about. We want to respect him as a servant of the Lord.”

Even though I knew what he would be speaking, if we invited him we would invite him with an open heart. We sent a letter to him. What I know is that Brother Lee had a meeting with the brothers and sisters in Los Angeles. I was told that he showed the letter to them and asked whether or not he should come. They told him if he was invited, he should go.

He came, and he not only came himself, but he brought a number of people with him. I know he intended to take over that meeting. Thank God that at that time, the brothers were really one with me. When he came with a group of people, they started a meeting before every meeting. We allowed them to do that until the time we were scheduled to meet. Then we started our meeting. No matter what he spoke, the brothers were still in agreement with me. So that was the situation at that time.

By the way, I had a long talk with Brother Lee. I told him that there are rumors around. I told him "If you think I have something against you, tell me. If you have something against me, tell me too. We shouldn't let anything come in between us."

Well, he told me two things. I won't tell you the details. It was really a misunderstanding, so I explained to him. He finally said "Alright, there is nothing between you and me, but on the point of the church, we cannot agree." So that is the way that we departed.

In 1972, I moved to Washington D.C. During that period, he tried to work upon the brothers in New York, so he finally took over. That was the meeting in Jamaica [Queens, NY]. When this happened, I was in Washington DC. A few brothers and sisters felt uneasy about it, so they left, and we began to come together for prayer.

[Terry]

"but on the point of the church, we cannot agree".....

My guess is on doctrine of the ground, Stephen Kaung and Witness Lee could not agree.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

"but on the point of the church, we cannot agree".....

My guess is on doctrine of the ground, Stephen Kaung and Witness Lee could not agree.

It seems that WL went around everywhere pushing his teaching of the ground. He made an issue out of this with A.W. Tozer, then again with T. Austin Sparks, and also with a close co-worker, Stephen Kaung. How unfortunate it was that he was unable to work with others because of this practice that he kept pushing.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Terry

"but on the point of the church, we cannot agree".....

My guess is on doctrine of the ground, Stephen Kaung and Witness Lee could not agree.

If we were to follow the history of WN and WL and their delegated authority teachings, it is highly probable that Stephen was considered by WL to be his subordinate. So this may have been part of the problem between them as well.
I often wonder what the details of these "rumors" and "misunderstandings" were about.

[OBW]

I feel obligated to point back at the question raised by the title of the thread.

"How much to throw out?"

All of it.

Not saying that it is all false. But discard Lee (and Nee and the BBs) as the source of your belief system. If it is not found in a significant way among the non-LCM theologians, be very skeptical.

And while I can say that Stephen Kaung (sp?) is not like Lee, because his base springs from Nee, it is probably better to say that there is a risk of error mixed in that even he does not recognize. Not at the level of Lee. But still there.

It sounds so spiritual. But is it sometimes just less bombastically pushing in the same direction of Chinese culture replacing Christ and true spiritual growth? I know that in the early days of his followers, they were busy identifying with Nee, not Kaung. Somewhat like the LCM did in the early days. They saw Lee as a preacher come from Nee. And maybe Kaung never went beyond that. But even if he retained contact and fellowship with TAS and others besides the old-line Nee leadership, his base is in the theology of Nee.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I feel obligated to point back at the question raised by the title of the thread.

"How much to throw out?"

All of it.

That may sound good, but those who have done so ended up discarding Jesus, their faith, the Bible, their trust in Christians, and ended up in a far worse place.

That's why this forum exists, to help former members distinguish the wheat from the chaff, and to expose the leaven of Lee.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I often wonder what the details of these "rumors" and "misunderstandings" were about.

Was it more than just the ground of locality (i.e. doctrine of division)?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

If we were to follow the history of WN and WL and their delegated authority teachings, it is highly probable that Stephen was considered by WL to be his subordinate. So this may have been part of the problem between them as well.
I often wonder what the details of these "rumors" and "misunderstandings" were about.

We were regularly told by Lee that Nee suffered constant opposition due to the gospel, just as the Apostle Paul did. Then Lee would go further telling us of all of the opposition he had faced over the decades. In the absence of any information to the contrary, we all completely bought into his message and his version of history. As long as he completely controlled the flow of information, we stayed on board.

Then the Blendeds decided to dump Titus Chu shortly after Y2K. We knew that it was simply a power struggle, and that Chu was entirely orthodox in the faith, in fact he was far more scriptural than any of the Blendeds. Chu's quarantine was the first chink in Anaheim's armor for many of us. It was the first "hole in the dike." Then we found the old Bereans forum, and found out what really happened to John Ingalls back in the late 1980's.

Many of us now were suspicious of every story Lee ever told us. What about the other "storms" of persecution? What about these other "rumors and misunderstandings?" It turns out that they were never "ambitious men longing for control," but in actuality were men of God rising up to oppose evil and unrighteousness.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That may sound good, but those who have done so ended up discarding Jesus, their faith, the Bible, their trust in Christians, and ended up in a far worse place.

That's why this forum exists, to help former members distinguish the wheat from the chaff, and to expose the leaven of Lee.

So you didn't read the rest? Anyone who does not understand what I am saying when I say that if it is worth keeping there is another source for it other than Lee probably is truly feeble minded.

An alternate way for what I said was to say "Ignore Lee and listen to others. If a conflict arises because of something you learned in the LCM, start with the position that the LCM is wrong and force yourself to prove it right rather than assuming it is correct and asking for proof it is wrong."

Those that reject their faith are not doing what I said to do. They are assuming that everything from Lee was false, therefore even if all of Christendom says the same thing the will then reject it anyway. I did not say that.

And you know it.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

So you didn't read the rest? Anyone who does not understand what I am saying when I say that if it is worth keeping there is another source for it other than Lee probably is truly feeble minded.

An alternate way for what I said was to say "Ignore Lee and listen to others. If a conflict arises because of something you learned in the LCM, start with the position that the LCM is wrong and force yourself to prove it right rather than assuming it is correct and asking for proof it is wrong."

Those that reject their faith are not doing what I said to do. They are assuming that everything from Lee was false, therefore even if all of Christendom says the same thing the will then reject it anyway. I did not say that.

And you know it.

Good discussion. This caused me to better ID my MO when it comes to anything spoken, practiced, or lauded by Lee: "If it's unique to Lee it's safest to kick it to the curb before it gets its tenticles into your brain".

[HERn]

This morning I fellowshipped with a brother whose dad and granddad served in the Salvation Army. In the town I live the city has set up an area where the homeless can set up tents to sleep in. Previously they were camping in creek bottoms and other places. This brother serves them with the gospel after they have been fed. None of them would be good LSM material, but they are precious to the Lord, after all He came to serve the sick not the well.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

This morning I fellowshipped with a brother whose dad and granddad served in the Salvation Army. In the town I live the city has set up an area where the homeless can set up tents to sleep in. Previously they were camping in creek bottoms and other places. This brother serves them with the gospel after they have been fed. None of them would be good LSM material, but they are precious to the Lord, after all He came to serve the sick not the well.

An interesting question.

Would anyone from whatever church come and serve them meals, or in other ways, if there was mostly no opportunity to "serve them with the gospel"?

The reason I ask is to discover whether we feel that the consideration of loving your neighbor predicated upon their willingness to listen to our preaching? Or is the general requirement of "justice" reserved only for those situations where we are free to preach?

I have heard some significant push-back from people who discovered that in certain situations they were restricted in their ability to preach the gospel. Isn't that a little like not helping your parents if you declare that what would have been for them is now given to the Tempe (or whatever that thing was supposed to mean that Jesus spoke against)?

I am saying nothing against the particular brother. Rather I am asking this of us.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

An interesting question.

Would anyone from whatever church come and serve them meals, or in other ways, if there was mostly no opportunity to "serve them with the gospel"?

The reason I ask is to discover whether we feel that the consideration of loving your neighbor predicated upon their willingness to listen to our preaching? Or is the general requirement of "justice" reserved only for those situations where we are free to preach?

I have heard some significant push-back from people who discovered that in certain situations they were restricted in their ability to preach the gospel. Isn't that a little like not helping your parents if you declare that what would have been for them is now given to the Tempe (or whatever that thing was supposed to mean that Jesus spoke against)?

I am saying nothing against the particular brother. Rather I am asking this of us.

I don't know the answer to the question. Today I found out that he does not provide the meal, just the recreation (movie, this week it was War Room). They can can attend the movie and service after the dinner or not if they don't want to. I might attend next Friday night, I'm kind of interested in what goes on. I really enjoyed worshipping the Lord this morning along with the table. It exceeded my LC experience. Our daughter is still on the fringes, and it breaks my heart. She tries so hard and makes gifts for the girls and does things to make them like her. But, when she walks up to a group of them they don't see her and then she walks away. She decided not to go to youth group tonight saying she had too much homework, which was not true but we are going to let her stay home. Other behavioral/physiological things have happened with her at last weeks high school girls bible study that shows she's under a lot of stress trying to be accepted. It's sad, I don't understand God's reasons, and I'm ticked off at Him. I think He'll survive though!! And so will we.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

I don't know the answer to the question.

And my question was not simply to you about this one brother and one situation. I find that it is a systemic problem with so many evangelicals when they try to do "service." They feel compelled to insist that it either be open to them preaching the gospel or they will have nothing to do with it.

I know many who have moved away from that. And I hope more of us will over time.

We should be willing to love our neighbor.

Period.

No strings attached.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

We should be willing to love our neighbor.

Period.

No strings attached.

Reading some of these last posts I was thinking of the "Good Samaritan". We all know the story. The part that may apply here might be the fact that the Samaritan didn't preach the gospel to the wounded man. (In fact, we know from the story of the Samaritan "women at the well" the Samaritans didn't even have the true gospel to preach anyway.) What he did do is "love his neighbor" in the most practical way possible. He bound up the man's wounds, and even set him up in a place to stay until he got better. As far as what is recorded, the Samaritan never asked for repayment of any kind.

Remember who passed the wounded man by before the Samaritan got there? It was "a priest" and "a Levite". I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to consider them the "evangelicals" of the day. Maybe they didn't consider this fellow as good material, so they didn't even preach the gospel to him.
-

[OBW]

Yes.

And it should be embarrassing that we evangelicals have so often rejected this clear command (and part of the Great command) and then chastised the Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, etc., for their obedience to it.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

And my question was not simply to you about this one brother and one situation. I find that it is a systemic problem with so many evangelicals when they try to do "service." They feel compelled to insist that it either be open to them preaching the gospel or they will have nothing to do with it.

I know many who have moved away from that. And I hope more of us will over time.

We should be willing to love our neighbor.

Period.

No strings attached.

I guess we should do all the good we can to all we can. If it involves food, a listening ear, giving people rides great; if at times the gospel is also provided along with those things that's good too.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I guess we should do all the good we can to all we can. If it involves food, a listening ear, giving people rides great; if at times the gospel is also provided along with those things that's good too.

Brother John Wesley says it better.

“Do all the good you can. By all the means you can. In all the ways you can. In all the places you can. At all the times you can. To all the people you can. As long as ever you can.”


― (attributed to) John Wesley

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Brother John Wesley says it better.

“Do all the good you can. By all the means you can. In all the ways you can. In all the places you can. At all the times you can. To all the people you can. As long as ever you can.”


― John Wesley

Well, after some research it turns out that Wesley really never said this! One researcher says it was first attributed to Wesley in 1903. I'm throwing out the first hits from Google claiming the author of a quote!

[HERn]

A brother who attends our One Another Group has been hosting a group of Seventh Day Adventists in his home while they plant a new church in our city. The One Another Group meeting has been at his home several times and the SDA believers attend our group meeting. I've noticed a trend of the comments from the SDA to be in a teaching mode always pointing back to something in Leviticus or the Law. Last Thursday night after some SDA comments I pushed back and said that Christ was the fullfillment of the Law and that Christ had accomplished everything. The SDA sister pushed back and then I responded that Paul in Galations and the first church council had dealt with the issue of the Law and gentiles. On Saturday at a church workday I apologized to the brother for being rude to a guest in his home. He told me that the SDA sister had been leading them in bible study every morning and really knew the bible. I told him that we would not longer attend the group meeting at his house when she was there. Tonight at a group party I apologized to his wife. I then found out that this brother had been raised as a SDA. Anyway, this is our first "doctrinal issue" at our new church and I don't know if I should discuss it with one of the Pastors.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

A brother who attends our One Another Group has been hosting a group of Seventh Day Adventists in his home while they plant a new church in our city. The One Another Group meeting has been at his home several times and the SDA believers attend our group meeting. I've noticed a trend of the comments from the SDA to be in a teaching mode always pointing back to something in Leviticus or the Law. Last Thursday night after some SDA comments I pushed back and said that Christ was the fullfillment of the Law and that Christ had accomplished everything. The SDA sister pushed back and then I responded that Paul in Galations and the first church council had dealt with the issue of the Law and gentiles. On Saturday at a church workday I apologized to the brother for being rude to a guest in his home. He told me that the SDA sister had been leading them in bible study every morning and really knew the bible. I told him that we would not longer attend the group meeting at his house when she was there. Tonight at a group party I apologized to his wife. I then found out that this brother had been raised as a SDA. Anyway, this is our first "doctrinal issue" at our new church and I don't know if I should discuss it with one of the Pastors.

The LAW has always been a major confusion for Christians. Many Pentacostals are going back to celebrate Jewish holidays. The pastors cherry pick what they like from the OT, like tithing, in order to finance their programs. Most believers just dont understand that the O.T. wad not written to the church, but to Israel.

The O. T. is FOR us but not written TO us. The N. T. is written TO us.

[HERn]

Well, I just re-read Galations in the Living Bible and it's as clear as the bulbous nose on my face. I really don't care if some want to have church meetings on Saturday, Friday, or any day; and I really don't care if some feel like they should be careful to keep the various laws and precepts; but I'll be damned before I let someone convince me that God has more love for those that do than for those that don't. Same goes for the Lee-ites who think God is more pleased with them than the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant (are there any other broad Christian groups that I forgot to insult?) "slobs" down the street. Sorry for the bad attitude.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, I just re-read Galations in the Living Bible and it's as clear as the bulbous nose on my face. I really don't care if some want to have church meetings on Saturday, Friday, or any day; and I really don't care if some feel like they should be careful to keep the various laws and precepts; but I'll be damned before I let someone convince me that God has more love for those that do than for those that don't. Same goes for the Lee-ites who think God is more pleased with them than the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant (are there any other broad Christian groups that I forgot to insult?) "slobs" down the street. Sorry for the bad attitude.

I was duped once while trying to be nice to a bunch of Lee-ites, but never again, God willing. Testallthings is a good approach to take. It really does matter what you allow yourself to believe.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

A brother who attends our One Another Group has been hosting a group of Seventh Day Adventists in his home while they plant a new church in our city. The One Another Group meeting has been at his home several times and the SDA believers attend our group meeting. I've noticed a trend of the comments from the SDA to be in a teaching mode always pointing back to something in Leviticus or the Law. Last Thursday night after some SDA comments I pushed back and said that Christ was the fullfillment of the Law and that Christ had accomplished everything. The SDA sister pushed back and then I responded that Paul in Galations and the first church council had dealt with the issue of the Law and gentiles. On Saturday at a church workday I apologized to the brother for being rude to a guest in his home. He told me that the SDA sister had been leading them in bible study every morning and really knew the bible. I told him that we would not longer attend the group meeting at his house when she was there. Tonight at a group party I apologized to his wife. I then found out that this brother had been raised as a SDA. Anyway, this is our first "doctrinal issue" at our new church and I don't know if I should discuss it with one of the Pastors.

Holy smokes! Check this out. While reading up on SDA I came across this website that described deceptive practices like the LSM CoC practice. http://www.nonsda.org/study12.shtml

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

Holy smokes! Check this out.

The SDA practices are based upon concealment, which is definitely reminiscent of ICOC, the LC CoC, the Mormons, and even the EL spin-off from the Shouters. First get contact, even through artificial means (the end justifies the ways) then sort out the gullible ones (e.g. 'positive contacts') who'll take in the lies.

I would argue that the true gospel is simple and transparent. There is nothing hidden, no arcane final secrets. Yet it goes progressively deeper; yet as you go deeper, you go deeper into the bare, simple truth which was once revealed to all, and for all. Those who are in the darkness can't see this, is all. There is nothing to hide, no "hidden history".

God dwells in unapproachable light; God doesn't hide in the darkness.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

The SDA practices are based upon concealment, which is definitely reminiscent of ICOC, the LC CoC, the Mormons, and even the EL spin-off from the Shouters. First get contact, even through artificial means (the end justifies the ways) then sort out the gullible ones (e.g. 'positive contacts') who'll take in the lies.

I would argue that the true gospel is simple and transparent. There is nothing hidden, no arcane final secrets. Yet it goes progressively deeper; yet as you go deeper, you go deeper into the bare, simple truth which was once revealed to all, and for all. Those who are in the darkness can't see this, is all. There is nothing to hide, no "hidden history".

God dwells in unapproachable light; God doesn't hide in the darkness.

Right. The apostles preached Christ, and this one crucified... and themselves as servants for the churches' sake. Thanks, Aron. All that makes manifest is light.

[HERn]

I visited the homeless thing tonight. The brother and his wife hosted a movie "Ring the Bell" and about 20 people were there. Before the movie the brother preached a 3 minute homily and after the movie the sister preached a homily. Then they prayed with several of them. The grounds used to be an old prison so the movie was shown in what was going the prison chapel. There was no food, just snacks. There were areas on the ground where tents were set up. There was a mix of people at the movie. Mostly older, white and male. But there were blacks and females. Some looked intelligent others looked slow. These are not good building material according to religion, but I could imagine Jesus being there. The term "the least of these" comes to mind.

Originally Posted by HERn

I visited the homeless thing tonight. The brother and his wife hosted a movie "Ring the Bell" and about 20 people were there. Before the movie the brother preached a 3 minute homily and after the movie the sister preached a homily. Then they prayed with several of them. The grounds used to be an old prison so the movie was shown in what was going the prison chapel. There was no food, just snacks. There were areas on the ground where tents were set up. There was a mix of people at the movie. Mostly older, white and male. But there were blacks and females. Some looked intelligent others looked slow. These are not good building material according to religion, but I could imagine Jesus being there. The term "the least of these" comes to mind.

Sounds like a place Jesus could come too. "Wherever two or more are gathered in My name, there I am in their midst." Sounds like that happened.

Peter and Andrew (commercial fisherman who didn't make it into schools), the woman at the well (divorced six times and living with another man), Mary the prostitute, Levi/Matthew the tax collector, Saul of Tarsus who persecuted the saints and dragged them and their families off to prison, John/Mark who quit on Paul... I could go on "not good material". Neither were we. But, Jesus has the power to forgive and transform. Praise Him!

[NewManLiving]

Yes (brother?) To the Lord they were all "good material". Too bad LSM mis-aimed. Their over-emphasis on good material is really unbelief. I suggest they pray read Hebrews: Tempted in all ways; learned obedience through the things which He suffered. Passed through the heavens to provide us access to the Holy of Holies where we receive Grace and Mercy for timely help. Intercedes for us as our great High Priest, Great Apostle and Great Shepherd. Able to sympathize with our sufferings and give comfort. Now this is The Christ! not some "process" or "dispensing". It is all about His Glory! Glorify Thyself Lord in all those YOU have chosen!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I visited the homeless thing tonight. The brother and his wife hosted a movie "Ring the Bell" and about 20 people were there. Before the movie the brother preached a 3 minute homily and after the movie the sister preached a homily. Then they prayed with several of them. The grounds used to be an old prison so the movie was shown in what was going the prison chapel. There was no food, just snacks. There were areas on the ground where tents were set up. There was a mix of people at the movie. Mostly older, white and male. But there were blacks and females. Some looked intelligent others looked slow. These are not good building material according to religion, but I could imagine Jesus being there. The term "the least of these" comes to mind.

I think the brother and sister were providing Christian or church care for folks that had no way to travel to a church and enter into middle-class church life. They don't have cars, some have bikes. I'm glad that some are burdened for the college age and that some care for the so-called "losers".

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Yes (brother?) To the Lord they were all "good material". Too bad LSM mis-aimed. Their over-emphasis on good material is really unbelief. I suggest they pray read Hebrews: Tempted in all ways; learned obedience through the things which He suffered. Passed through the heavens to provide us access to the Holy of Holies where we receive Grace and Mercy for timely help. Intercedes for us as our great High Priest, Great Apostle and Great Shepherd. Able to sympathize with our sufferings and give comfort. Now this is The Christ! not some "process" or "dispensing". It is all about His Glory! Glorify Thyself Lord in all those YOU have chosen!

Yes, I'm a brother in Christ by His mercy and grace.
Like Hern and the apostle Paul I rejoice whenever and however Christ is preached.

[NewManLiving]

I'm not too sure that is what the LC is preaching. Paul was speaking about Christ. Not exalting a ministry and/or person over Christ. Some preach "Christ" for "whatever reason"; in this case some preach other things. If Christ was strongly preached in LSM churches, regardless of their motives, instead of a ministry and a man, people who "wake" up "leave" would simply follow the Lord elsewhere. But many leave Christ as well since they were never properly rooted and grounded. It's unhealthy. Just read the history of churches in China and make a comparison. The same thing happened -many were shipwrecked

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I'm not too sure that is what the LC is preaching. Paul was speaking about Christ. Not exalting a ministry and/or person over Christ. Some preach "Christ" for "whatever reason"; in this case some preach other things. If Christ was strongly preached in LSM churches, regardless of their motives, instead of a ministry and a man, people who "wake" up "leave" would simply follow the Lord elsewhere. But many leave Christ as well since they were never properly rooted and grounded. It's unhealthy. Just read the history of churches in China and make a comparison. The same thing happened -many were shipwrecked

This is one of the things that makes me believe that the recovery is false: If Christ can't have you in the recovery, then you are not His and He does not want you. I don't know if we are, but why are we on this forum "outliers" in the dataset of saints who have left the recovery and continued on with the Lord? Does anyone know the percentage of liberated LC saints that go on with the Lord in other denominations other than the LSM LCs?

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

Does anyone know the percentage of liberated LC saints that go on with the Lord in other denominations other than the LSM LCs?

Why use the word denominations unless you've reached to point to accept everyone is denominated? Denominations is the code word LCers use when speaking of Christians outside LSM fellowship.
Going on, the number of former LCers going on with non-LSM churches has probably exceeded current membership of LSM churches.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

Why use the word denominations unless you've reached to point to accept everyone is denominated? Denominations is the code word LCers use when speaking of Christians outside LSM fellowship.
Going on, the number of former LCers going on with non-LSM churches has probably exceeded current membership of LSM churches.

That is good news! From the comments on this forum I thought that most who leave the denomination known as the lords recovery never go on with the Lord, just like Benson says.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

That is good news! From the comments on this forum I thought that most who leave the denomination known as the lords recovery never go on with the Lord, just like Benson says.

Unless Benson equates salvation as receiving Living Stream Ministry publications...
No! Those that have received Jesus Christ as our savior will tend to have the experience wherever life takes us, we belong to the Lord. Never going on with the Lord just isn't an option.

[JJ]

From memory Witness Lee defined the Lord's recovery as the recovery of Christ as everything for producing and building up of the body of Christ, which is expressed as local churches in each city. The problem I see is that Christ isn't everything in today's "recovery". He was pushed aside for Brother Lee love vs. brotherly love.

[JJ]

I don't consider myself to be in a denomination today, but I was in one. The church of brother Lee and brother Nee.

The church I am in meets in the name of Jesus, doesn't uplift the ministry of one or two ministers of Christ above others, has fellowship with all genuine members of the one body of Christ, and builds it up locally, regionally, and on the whole earth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

From memory Witness Lee defined the Lord's recovery as the recovery of Christ as everything for producing and building up of the body of Christ, which is expressed as local churches in each city. The problem I see is that Christ isn't everything in today's "recovery". He was pushed aside for Brother Lee love vs. brotherly love.

Lee equated the building up of the body with the building up of his ministry. I still can't believe he could not or would not distinguish the two.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by JJ

Brother Lee love vs. brotherly love.

Reminds me of someone almost 10 years ago that was constantly making reference to things like heavenLee, certainLee, awfulLee, etc. Anything ending in "ly" was switched to end in "Lee."

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I don't consider myself to be in a denomination today, but I was in one. The church of brother Lee and brother Nee.

The church I am in meets in the name of Jesus, doesn't uplift the ministry of one or two ministers of Christ above others, has fellowship with all genuine members of the one body of Christ, and builds it up locally, regionally, and on the whole earth.

I guess I'm a reprobate because I'm cool with denominations. I don't think the Lord sees them, I think He just sees His church and those that love Him.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

Reminds me of someone almost 10 years ago that was constantly making reference to things like heavenLee, certainLee, awfulLee, etc. Anything ending in "ly" was switched to end in "Lee."

Maybe the worship of WL was mostly on the west coast because I don't remember hearing that kind of heresy.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

Maybe the worship of WL was mostly on the west coast because I don't remember hearing that kind of heresy.

It wasn't in the LRC. It was in the forum. It was a tongue-in-cheek mockery of Lee.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HERn

I guess I'm a reprobate because I'm cool with denominations. I don't think the Lord sees them, I think He just sees His church and those that love Him.

The only thing wrong with denominations was that they were not under Lee's leadership. Everything he said was fantasy sold as gospel truth.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by OBW

The only thing wrong with denominations was that they were not under Lee's leadership. Everything he said was fantasy sold as gospel truth.

Or in present time not under fellowship of Living Stream Ministry. Only then is one considered not meeting in division. Additionally, those of us that have experienced the references....(for me in Puget Sound area localities and a Inland Empire locality in Southern California) Christians outside the scope of LSM-influenced local churches are in denominations

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Terry

Or in present time not under fellowship of Living Stream Ministry. Only then is one considered not meeting in division. Additionally, those of us that have experienced the references....(for me in Puget Sound area localities and a Inland Empire locality in Southern California) Christians outside the scope of LSM-influenced local churches are in denominations

The irony of all this is the fact that LSM is one of the most, if not the most, exclusive denominations on earth. All based upon some extreme view of the ground of locality. Its no wonder that Paul does not include the "ground of locality" in the requirements of common faith that is presented in Ephesians. This concept either did not exist in doctrine or he had the foresight to know it would just bring an extreme type of division. My guess is that there never was such a doctrine since none is explicitly mentioned.
The LSM makes such a big deal out of it and then determines who is and who is not meeting on this so-called ground. Of course all those who do not accept the blendeds as God's authority are automatically in division. The tricks the mind can play on people over time.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. We were not called in "one city" or one "local ground". How this became such an issue is anyone's guess. Paul mentions a number of critical factors which are far more important. LSM does not seem to even care about these things. Without their pet doctrine their whole authoritative system would crumble.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The irony of all this is the fact that LSM is one of the most, if not the most, exclusive denominations on earth. All based upon some extreme view of the ground of locality. Its no wonder that Paul does not include the "ground of locality" in the requirements of common faith that is presented in Ephesians. This concept either did not exist in doctrine or he had the foresight to know it would just bring an extreme type of division. My guess is that there never was such a doctrine since none is explicitly mentioned.
The LSM makes such a big deal out of it and then determines who is and who is not meeting on this so-called ground. Of course all those who do not accept the blendeds as God's authority are automatically in division. The tricks the mind can play on people over time.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. We were not called in "one city" or one "local ground". How this became such an issue is anyone's guess. Paul mentions a number of critical factors which are far more important. LSM does not seem to even care about these things. Without their pet doctrine their whole authoritative system would crumble.

NewManLiving, besides what I have witnessed over the 40+ years since I contacted the LC's, and the many stories I have heard and read from others here on the forums, LC leaders never honored their own pet doctrine of one church one city. In a word, the doctrine is a complete farce used only to justify their incessant condemnations on all other Christians.

It was written in a book TNCCL by Nee. Many Christians back in the 60's were enamored by its idealistic concepts. Lee used their interest to capture their attention. End of story.

Secondly, none of the many storms and divisions in TLR, which Titus Chu aptly used to call "self-destructs," could be justified by that book. On the contrary, that book by Nee condemned Lee for every action he took in those "storms." Anyone who would have read that book in the last quarter century would realize that the whole one church one city teaching was nothing more than a ruse. I know I did, and boy was I shocked.

[HERn]

Just got back from the Friday night movie event for the homeless. Most sleep in tents, some under a roof in sleeping bags. Last week I noticed the snacks were all bagged chips, so I thought I would bring some fruit tonight. The oranges and apples were all taken. I think I'll bring more next time. The brother and his wife preached short sermons like last week. The brother told me he struggles with depression, but here he is pouring out the Love of Jesus. Saw different people this week. I'm going to ask the brother why he does this. He coordinates with some Assembly of God brothers for baptisms and Sunday services. This looks like more real blending than the LSM LCs ever had.

[HERn]

Since I left the recovery I'm trying to find some Christian friends, which is why I'm getting involved in different things. Once the brothers realized that I was negative and an opposer they stopped contacting me. That's OK. I need to be free from them.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

Once the brothers realized that I was negative and an opposer they stopped contacting me.

It's all relative. It's not so much you're negative, but your conscience is not at peace.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The irony of all this is the fact that LSM is one of the most, if not the most, exclusive denominations on earth. All based upon some extreme view of the ground of locality. Its no wonder that Paul does not include the "ground of locality" in the requirements of common faith that is presented in Ephesians. This concept either did not exist in doctrine or he had the foresight to know it would just bring an extreme type of division. My guess is that there never was such a doctrine since none is explicitly mentioned.
The LSM makes such a big deal out of it and then determines who is and who is not meeting on this so-called ground. Of course all those who do not accept the blendeds as God's authority are automatically in division. The tricks the mind can play on people over time.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. We were not called in "one city" or one "local ground". How this became such an issue is anyone's guess. Paul mentions a number of critical factors which are far more important. LSM does not seem to even care about these things. Without their pet doctrine their whole authoritative system would crumble.

We can quote Ephesians 4:4-6 all day long. In the mind of a LSM apologist, LSM should be included also.
Before 10 years ago it wasn't so transparent as it is now. Presently, it is all so clear "the ground" of LSM churches is not Christ, but Living Stream Ministry. That is the basis of these churches to have fellowship with each other. Thus LSM is the common denominator each of the LSM churches have in common.
Local churches that don't receive LSM are not received as local churches. That is a clear indicator Christ is not the ground of the Local churches. Otherwise the Church in Bellevue should be able to receive the Church in Moses Lake. The Church in Chicago should be able to receive the Church in Toronto. Moreover, what is the heart attitude towards your fellow brothers and sisters in your own cities. It's as if LSM local churches practice isolationism. They won't have any Christian fellowship with brothers and sisters in their cities, unless the fellowship is based on LSM publications.
For all intent and purposes, they are adding to what is spoken in Ephesians 4:4-6.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee equated the building up of the body with the building up of his ministry. I still can't believe he could not or would not distinguish the two.

Yes, a good lesson for us not to repeat that history.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

We can quote Ephesians 4:4-6 all day long. In the mind of a LSM apologist, LSM should be included also.
Before 10 years ago it wasn't so transparent as it is now. Presently, it is all so clear "the ground" of LSM churches is not Christ, but Living Stream Ministry. That is the basis of these churches to have fellowship with each other. Thus LSM is the common denominator each of the LSM churches have in common.
Local churches that don't receive LSM are not received as local churches. That is a clear indicator Christ is not the ground of the Local churches. Otherwise the Church in Bellevue should be able to receive the Church in Moses Lake. The Church in Chicago should be able to receive the Church in Toronto. Moreover, what is the heart attitude towards your fellow brothers and sisters in your own cities. It's as if LSM local churches practice isolationism. They won't have any Christian fellowship with brothers and sisters in their cities, unless the fellowship is based on LSM publications.
For all intent and purposes, they are adding to what is spoken in Ephesians 4:4-6.

Well said. While in one breath "everyone who has received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is a member of the body", in another breath it is "only fellowship with those in the local churches who base their church life on our ministry". That is not the blending of the body, and fosters weird and unhealthy mutations (like what happens in the Ozarks when people marry their own relatives for generations).

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

The SDA practices are based upon concealment, which is definitely reminiscent of ICOC, the LC CoC, the Mormons, and even the EL spin-off from the Shouters. First get contact, even through artificial means (the end justifies the ways) then sort out the gullible ones (e.g. 'positive contacts') who'll take in the lies.

I would argue that the true gospel is simple and transparent. There is nothing hidden, no arcane final secrets. Yet it goes progressively deeper; yet as you go deeper, you go deeper into the bare, simple truth which was once revealed to all, and for all. Those who are in the darkness can't see this, is all. There is nothing to hide, no "hidden history".

God dwells in unapproachable light; God doesn't hide in the darkness.

Found this while researching SDA.

http://prod.tms.edu/preachersandprea...day-adventism/

The professor said that one thing keeps the SDA in the Christian "cult" domain is their equating the writings of E. White on the same level as scripture and then using the writings as a lens to understand the bible. To me this sounds a lot like using the "ministry" as an "opener" for the bible as preached by the blendeds.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

It's all relative. It's not so much you're negative, but your conscience is not at peace.

I have a problem with agreeing with the term "negative and opposer" for a brother calling for biblical church teaching and practice. Paul used the word opposer for those who opposed the healthy teaching of the apostles, as is now written in the New Testament, and in particular preached licentious living and/or themselves as Lord of all.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

NewManLiving, besides what I have witnessed over the 40+ years since I contacted the LC's, and the many stories I have heard and read from others here on the forums, LC leaders never honored their own pet doctrine of one church one city. In a word, the doctrine is a complete farce used only to justify their incessant condemnations on all other Christians.

It was written in a book TNCCL by Nee. Many Christians back in the 60's were enamored by its idealistic concepts. Lee used their interest to capture their attention. End of story.

Secondly, none of the many storms and divisions in TLR, which Titus Chu aptly used to call "self-destructs," could be justified by that book. On the contrary, that book by Nee condemned Lee for every action he took in those "storms." Anyone who would have read that book in the last quarter century would realize that the whole one church one city teaching was nothing more than a ruse. I know I did, and boy was I shocked.

I'm having a really hard time with throwing out "one church one city", as I see that is what the first generation of apostles established. I just don't think it has been practiced with the spirit of love and safeguards on apostles who fall in love with themselves and desire to lord it over the churches as the kings of the nations do.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm having a really hard time with throwing out "one church one city", as I see that is what the first generation of apostles established. I just don't think it has been practiced with the spirit of love and safeguards on apostles who fall in love with themselves and desire to lord it over the churches as the kings of the nations do.

JJ, "one church one city" is one of many things described in some places of the Bible but not prescribed. There are a number of places (cities) where it did not occur.

Acts 9.31 Church is singular for a region rather than plural churches.

Colossians 4.15-16 indicates that there was a church in Laodicea and also a church in the house of Nymphas.

Paul's letter to the Romans also identifies a church in the house of Prisca and Aquila. (16.5)

I Corinthians 16.9 identifies another church in the house of Prisca and Aquila.

Now we heard for years that these house churches were "one city one church" meeting in a house, but this is questionable and not definitive.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm having a really hard time with throwing out "one church one city", as I see that is what the first generation of apostles established. I just don't think it has been practiced with the spirit of love and safeguards on apostles who fall in love with themselves and desire to lord it over the churches as the kings of the nations do.

Where does it say that they practiced it? The letters are "addressed" to either the city or the home in which the church was assembled. This makes perfect sense even from a geographical standpoint. However, there is no other indication that this was some kind of doctrine that defines the oneness of the Body of Christ and therefore should be strictly adhered to. Ephesians and other letters are quite emphatic that it does not define our oneness simply by omitting it from the common faith. Paul was a wise man. He knew perfectly well that it is the Spirit that defines and guarantees our oneness. The only problem then and today is that people have a bad habit and a long history of quenching the Spirit and forming a religion = LSM.

Now there is nothing wrong with meeting in a city or home even as a practice. Look at the local churches that were raised up in India apart from LSM. They also have the concept of a city but they are one with all saints in that city and attempt to reach out to them. Of course this put LSM between a rock and a hard place so they decided to use one of their tried-and-true, underhanded tactics of simply going in covertly as just "simple lovers of Jesus" and systematically began shoving Witness Lee down everyone's throat. And they had some amount of success. The ones that realized what was going on were quickly labeled opposers, negative, lepers. The usual garbage. There is not one instance of the locality doctrine that has not eventually caused the worst kind of exclusivity and division. Now perhaps the Lord is working in India since LSM pretty much destroyed His work here. Let's see what happens.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Yes (brother?) To the Lord they were all "good material". Too bad LSM mis-aimed. Their over-emphasis on good material is really unbelief.

Since we are on the topic of "good material," I just came across notes from an old message given by Chuck Debelek in Cleveland early 1999 shortly after he returned from Anaheim. Here's a few random points from my notes:

Romans 2.4 shows us the kindness of God leads to repentance. Our attitude and behavior towards others shows us how much we enjoy the Lord's love in kindness and longsuffering. What kind of God would love us as sinners (Rom 5.8) and then reject us as sons of God. Love, to every Christian, is indispensable.

God has ordained our family, parents, environment, etc. If God wanted us all the same, He would have created us that way. God is cultivating a unique relationship with each one of us that cannot be reproduced. Be careful about so-called "good material" or "bad material" which God has created to His own glory and placed in the body as He chooses.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since we are on the topic of "good material," I just came across notes from an old message given by Chuck Debelek in Cleveland early 1999 shortly after he returned from Anaheim. Here's a few random points from my notes:

Romans 2.4 shows us the kindness of God leads to repentance. Our attitude and behavior towards others shows us how much we enjoy the Lord's love in kindness and longsuffering. What kind of God would love us as sinners (Rom 5.8) and then reject us as sons of God. Love, to every Christian, is indispensable.

God has ordained our family, parents, environment, etc. If God wanted us all the same, He would have created us that way. God is cultivating a unique relationship with each one of us that cannot be reproduced. Be careful about so-called "good material" or "bad material" which God has created to His own glory and placed in the body as He chooses.

Amen! He will have mercy upon whom He desires. It is for His own glory. The concept of good material is derived from a business model. LSM is a business. Their associated churches are business churches that support the business.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Where does it say that they practiced it? The letters are "addressed" to either the city or the home in which the church was assembled. This makes perfect sense even from a geographical standpoint. However, there is no other indication that this was some kind of doctrine that defines the oneness of the Body of Christ and therefore should be strictly adhered to. Ephesians and other letters are quite emphatic that it does not define our oneness simply by omitting it from the common faith. Paul was a wise man. He knew perfectly well that it is the Spirit that defines and guarantees our oneness. The only problem then and today is that people have a bad habit and a long history of quenching the Spirit and forming a religion = LSM.

Now there is nothing wrong with meeting in a city or home even as a practice. Look at the local churches that were raised up in India apart from LSM. They also have the concept of a city but they are one with all saints in that city and attempt to reach out to them. Of course this put LSM between a rock and a hard place so they decided to use one of their tried-and-true, underhanded tactics of simply going in covertly as just "simple lovers of Jesus" and systematically began shoving Witness Lee down everyone's throat. And they had some amount of success. The ones that realized what was going on were quickly labeled opposers, negative, lepers. The usual garbage. There is not one instance of the locality doctrine that has not eventually caused the worst kind of exclusivity and division. Now perhaps the Lord is working in India since LSM pretty much destroyed His work here. Let's see what happens.

I think of it more as "where didn't they practice it" (one church one city), even where there were multiple meetings like Jerusalem. But the first generation also had many apostles who traveled, preached, wrote, and loved on the churches together. And, when there was a controversy, they would get together and discuss it, see what the Holy Spirit was doing and what scripture said, not sue or "blackball" other believers, and certainly not cover-up unholy, unrighteous behavior without demanding repentance.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

JJ, "one church one city" is one of many things described in some places of the Bible but not prescribed. There are a number of places (cities) where it did not occur.

Acts 9.31 Church is singular for a region rather than plural churches.

Colossians 4.15-16 indicates that there was a church in Laodicea and also a church in the house of Nymphas.

Paul's letter to the Romans also identifies a church in the house of Prisca and Aquila. (16.5)

I Corinthians 16.9 identifies another church in the house of Prisca and Aquila.

Now we heard for years that these house churches were "one city one church" meeting in a house, but this is questionable and not definitive.

Good points, Ohio. It doesn't say what the churches in the houses called themselves, does it? I only presume they were part of "the church" in their city. But, I still don't see where a church called itself something else other than the church in that city.

I do agree that the oneness, is the oneness of the Spirit as described in Ephesians, which we have and must be diligent to keep as we bear one another in love. Ephesians also has the oneness of the faith and full knowledge of Christ that we all attain to. I'm not aware of the "oneness of the teaching".

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by JJ

Good points, Ohio. It doesn't say what the churches in the houses called themselves, does it? I only presume they were part of "the church" in their city. But, I still don't see where a church called itself something else other than the church in that city".

Well again where did the church call itself anything? From what I could see the term simply indicated where they lived... And certain men came "from" James... and certain men which came down "from" Judea. To the saints which are "in" Ephesus. That is their location. They were Ephesians, Corinthians, etc... Non members are also identified with their city. They did not "practice" nor did they "call" each other by the city name. Its just to identify where they lived or met-nothing more. Something that important would have certainly been indicated by the Holy Spirit. Not left so vague. We are limited to space and time. Everyone has an address.

John from Derby CT and the Church which meets on Mountain Road in Seymour wish you well!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Good points, Ohio. It doesn't say what the churches in the houses called themselves, does it? I only presume they were part of "the church" in their city. But, I still don't see where a church called itself something else other than the church in that city.

To be honest with you, JJ, I did not accept the teaching of "one church, one city" (OCOC) based on scriptural evidence alone, but on the supposed reputations of Nee and Lee provided to me by the brothers in the church in Cleveland, i.e. they were great men of God, raised up by the Lord to recover lost truths, including the oneness of the believers.

As soon as I learned about Lee's real character (in 2006, after serving in the LC's for 3 decades) surrounding the many "storms" in his ministry, I decided to examine all of his exclusive teachings, as the Bible says, "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21)

Brother John Myer of Columbus, in his monumental e-book A Future and a Hope, regarding leaving the LSM program, wrote the best line: "There is more support in the Bible for head covering than there is for the LC teaching of one church, one city."

Furthermore, regarding the teaching of OCOC, there has never been a Christian (not Brethren, not China, not Taiwan, not USA) group who have actually practiced this in a healthy way. Oneness is a reality that is a fruit of love. Nee and Lee's OCOC doctrine of oneness is based upon the condemnation of all Christians for their supposed "failures," not actually on God's love. How can that be any good? In fact, I believe distorted oneness (think "catholic" oneness, and the inquisitions of the dark ages) has been the most destructive heresy in church history. Millions of genuine children of God have died by the hands of its proponents.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm not aware of the "oneness of the teaching".

Is that something I said?

[Terry]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Amen! He will have mercy upon whom He desires. It is for His own glory. The concept of good material is derived from a business model. LSM is a business. Their associated churches are business churches that support the business.

Exactly! Good material I tend to see as those identified based education and or profession for financial support for the local church.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Be careful about so-called "good material" or "bad material" which God has created to His own glory and placed in the body as He chooses.
[/INDENT]

Agreed! Growing up I had a cousin two years younger than I. In early adulthood, he got into trouble with the law and subsequently spent many years in prison. Would he be someone identified as good material? Surely not. Just by his tattoo's alone would be enough to make people squirm into their seats. Yet in recent years since leaving prison my cousin did receive the Lord and was baptized.
Who are we to determine who is good material or not good material? Could be a company CEO, a homeless man, or even a Harley riding biker.

Ephesians 1:4-7
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

Agreed! Growing up I had a cousin two years younger than I. In early adulthood, he got into trouble with the law and subsequently spent many years in prison. Would he be someone identified as good material? Surely not. Just by his tattoo's alone would be enough to make people squirm into their seats. Yet in recent years since leaving prison my cousin did receive the Lord and was baptized.
Who are we to determine who is good material or not good material? Could be a company CEO, a homeless man, or even a Harley riding biker.

Ephesians 1:4-7
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

I can testify that God can and has saved many Harley riding bikers and made them fruitful members of His body. One of them, a former hells-angel gang member was in my church Bible study, and was one of the best evangelists I've ever met. God came to him in the pit of hell, saved him, and began a transformation. He has now gone to be with the Lord, but he couldn't not preach Jesus wherever he went. He led many to the Lord and to grow in Him, because he could relate to a section of society, and vice-versa that other believers couldn't.

I also was in a pit of hell before Christ came to me. It just had a better outward appearance (suburban neighborhood), but inside I was just as messed up. And, all of us were. There is none righteous, not one. For all have sinned and fall short of His glory. God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that something I said?

No. I just say that because that approach has been tried over and over again throughout the centuries, and produced spectacular failures over and over again, except when the teaching is the Word of God itself.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To be honest with you, JJ, I did not accept the teaching of "one church, one city" (OCOC) based on scriptural evidence alone, but on the supposed reputations of Nee and Lee provided to me by the brothers in the church in Cleveland, i.e. they were great men of God, raised up by the Lord to recover lost truths, including the oneness of the believers.

As soon as I learned about Lee's real character (in 2006, after serving in the LC's for 3 decades) surrounding the many "storms" in his ministry, I decided to examine all of his exclusive teachings, as the Bible says, "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21)

Brother John Myer of Columbus, in his monumental e-book A Future and a Hope, regarding leaving the LSM program, wrote the best line: "There is more support in the Bible for head covering than there is for the LC teaching of one church, one city."

Furthermore, regarding the teaching of OCOC, there has never been a Christian (not Brethren, not China, not Taiwan, not USA) group who have actually practiced this in a healthy way. Oneness is a reality that is a fruit of love. Nee and Lee's OCOC doctrine of oneness is based upon the condemnation of all Christians for their supposed "failures," not actually on God's love. How can that be any good? In fact, I believe distorted oneness (think "catholic" oneness, and the inquisitions of the dark ages) has been the most destructive heresy in church history. Millions of genuine children of God have died by the hands of its proponents.

Yes, I've seen and been on both sides of the destructive side of OCOC teaching first-hand. I accepted "The Normal Christian Church Life's explanation of its basis, as it made sense, and initially I received much blessing from the Lord in my locality when we initially practiced it. However, I didn't realize that the way we practiced it was with a spirit of superiority, pride, and meanness, until I got out and began to have good fellowship with other believers.

When we would "take the ground" in a city, we would have the spirit "we are the church, and you aren't", when that wasn't supposed to be the point. The point was supposed to be, all believers in this city are part of the church. So let's not argue over who is right doctrinally, let's just enjoy and worship Christ who is our life. But, we made "the ground of the church" a doctrine to divide us, rather than unite us.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by JJ

When we would "take the ground" in a city, we would have the spirit "we are the church, and you aren't", when that wasn't supposed to be the point. The point was supposed to be, all believers in this city are part of the church. So let's not argue over who is right doctrinally, let's just enjoy and worship Christ who is our life. But, we made "the ground of the church" a doctrine to divide us, rather than unite us.

That's still the attitude. Especially what I've seen the past 20 years in Western Washington. The definition of what the ground is especially since 10 years ago is more clear to mean Living Stream Ministry. If a locality doesn't have a LSM endorsing church, that city isn't considered to have a lampstand.
One in a local church could have the mindset of wanting all Christians to be one, but it's not possible if you mandate fellowship being based on LSM publications. Instead of a unity in Christ, there's division just as JJ posted.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes, I've seen and been on both sides of the destructive side of OCOC teaching first-hand. I accepted "The Normal Christian Church Life's explanation of its basis, as it made sense, and initially I received much blessing from the Lord in my locality when we initially practiced it. However, I didn't realize that the way we practiced it was with a spirit of superiority, pride, and meanness, until I got out and began to have good fellowship with other believers.

When we would "take the ground" in a city, we would have the spirit "we are the church, and you aren't", when that wasn't supposed to be the point. The point was supposed to be, all believers in this city are part of the church. So let's not argue over who is right doctrinally, let's just enjoy and worship Christ who is our life. But, we made "the ground of the church" a doctrine to divide us, rather than unite us.

Agreed! I was part of two migrations to start new churches, and the Lord really blessed them. Actually, I think we would have done much better without our attachment to LSM. The more we "closely followed Brother Lee," the deader things got. But no one dared to admit that.

[Bubbles!]

I'm new to this site, and really don't know what I'm doing! I've made contact with one person on "private mail," or whatever they call it here. I guess I'm in the "general forum." now, as I would put it. I picked your "thread" at random, just to see if this is how to "do it!"

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

I'm new to this site, and really don't know what I'm doing! I've made contact with one person on "private mail," or whatever they call it here. I guess I'm in the "general forum." now, as I would put it. I picked your "thread" at random, just to see if this is how to "do it!"

Hi Bubbles. I'm just a simple brother trying to go on with the Lord outside of the lords recovery. I hope you find a way out.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi Bubbles. I'm just a simple brother trying to go on with the Lord outside of the lords recovery. I hope you find a way out.

Hi Bubbles. Everyone here is very helpful. The saints are blessed to have this forum to help those who are trying to disassociate themselves with the LC ministry.

I 'hang out' with fellow believers who have left the organized, man made church. I found them through you tube mostly.

People here had been in the LC for decades possibly centuries ! Their stories will help you stop playing the broken LC record in your head.

Blessings!
Carol

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

I'm new to this site, and really don't know what I'm doing! I've made contact with one person on "private mail," or whatever they call it here. I guess I'm in the "general forum." now, as I would put it. I picked your "thread" at random, just to see if this is how to "do it!"

Hey Bubbles! Scan down a bit and you will see your post made it onto the forum! YOU CAN DO IT BRO!

When you get a chance, go to the main forum Homepage, hit the
"Introductions And Testimonies To View All Posts or Post Your own Testimony, Click Here!" button and then hit "New Thread" and fire away.

Here's a link to that particular forum:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...isplay.php?f=9

-

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's still the attitude. Especially what I've seen the past 20 years in Western Washington. The definition of what the ground is especially since 10 years ago is more clear to mean Living Stream Ministry. If a locality doesn't have a LSM endorsing church, that city isn't considered to have a lampstand.
One in a local church could have the mindset of wanting all Christians to be one, but it's not possible if you mandate fellowship being based on LSM publications. Instead of a unity in Christ, there's division just as JJ posted.

How is that enforced, Terry? I've seen the same thing practically in California as well, but never understood why the saints wouldn't share more from their time with the Lord in the Word and enjoyment of Christ versus verbatim sharing from HWFMR or repeating lines from the Hymn book.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by JJ

How is that enforced, Terry? I've seen the same thing practically in California as well, but never understood why the saints wouldn't share more from their time with the Lord in the Word and enjoyment of Christ versus verbatim sharing from HWFMR or repeating lines from the Hymn book.

Peer pressure mostly. Whether it's speaking something positive intended to edify from HWFMR or speaking something negative in besmirching non-LSM Christians. Peer pressure is present and not to oppose the positive/negative speaking.

Once in a while someone will want to speak from the Bible. It's tolerated, but not condemned nor encouraged. An elder will usually re-direct the prophesying meeting back towards HWFMR.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

Peer pressure mostly. Whether it's speaking something positive intended to edify from HWFMR or speaking something negative in besmirching non-LSM Christians. Peer pressure is present and not to oppose the positive/negative speaking.

Once in a while someone will want to speak from the Bible. It's tolerated, but not condemned nor encouraged. An elder will usually re-direct the prophesying meeting back towards HWFMR.

Thanks for your answer Terry. I see that you tried to instant message me, but my pop-up blocker isn't allowing it. Sorry about that.

I mostly missed meetings and conferences from 1985 to 2005, and was mystified by the reduction in genuine rejoicing in the Lord over that gap. When I attended meetings from 2005 to 2015 I tried many times to speak with enjoyment from the light of the Lord coming directly through the verses I had been reading during the week at the Lord's table and prophesying meeting, and it often went over like a lead balloon with most of the saints (though a few responded), and I never knew why.

Until I came to these message boards, I couldn't find anyone else willing to talk about it. So, I'm grateful to have some company. My real interest is in moving forward.

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the idea that only LSM-associated venues produce sisters who sing in the Spirit.

*https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMPNXXnCls

Lauren Daigle


"Trust In You"

Letting go of every single dream
I lay each one down at Your feet*
Every moment of my wandering
Never changes what You see

I’ve tried to win this war I confess
My hands are weary I need Your rest
Mighty Warrior, King of the fight
No matter what I face, You’re by my side

When You don’t move the mountains I’m needing You to move
When You don’t part the waters I wish I could walk through
When You don’t give the answers as I cry out to You
I will trust, I will trust, I will trust in You!

Truth is, You know what tomorrow brings*
There’s not a day ahead You have not seen
So, in all things be my life and breath
I want what You want Lord and nothing less

When You don’t move the mountains I’m needing You to move
When You don’t part the waters I wish I could walk through
When You don’t give the answers as I cry out to You
I will trust, I will trust, I will trust in You!

You are my strength and comfort
You are my steady hand
You are my firm foundation; the rock on which I stand

Your ways are always higher
Your plans are always good
There’s not a place where I’ll go, You’ve not already stood

When You don’t move the mountains I’m needing You to move
When You don’t part the waters I wish I could walk through
When You don’t give the answers as I cry out to You
I will trust, I will trust, I will trust in You!

I will trust in You!
I will trust in You!
I will trust in You!

[HERn]

One of the positive things about being in the LRC is that I got used to strong emotional praying, kind of like Pentecostal or charismatic. That's good because at this evening's new one another group a dear black sister prayed like a TV preacher, but it seemed real and genuine. I was saying amen (but not as loud) like in a recovery prayer meeting and was comfortable. The couple that leads the group used to serve with the Salvation Army and run the movie ministry at the homeless shelter. Maybe it's my Mississippi share cropper background, but I feel comfortable around more lower class, blue collar, black culture than the upper middle class. Jesus died and rose again for all classes, so I don't think he loves one group more than the other.

[HERn]

Although we are in a major university community the elder board has a firefighter, MD, a lower-level non-doctorate staff member, and others. No women elders yet! The deacon board has an MD, a couple of working moms, the powerful praying black sister, a black brother who is a ac mechanic at the university, and a stay at home mom. This seems like a lot of diversity to me.

[HERn]

Just came home from my first deacons meeting followed by a combined elders and deacons meeting. A couple of things caught my attention. We prayed a lot for each other and for the members. I compare that to a couple of "brothers" meetings I went to in the so called LR where we mainly analyzed the saints and invoked the ministry of WL. Tonight I learned that several local churches are praying and planning on reaching out to the Muslims in Germany...from community to baptist to family to Anglican churches. To me this is the real work of the body that Christ died for. Oh, I am so glad to be in a healthy church life!

[HERn]

Just heard that one of my family members with saints from his LC went to Germany to preach the gospel to Syrian refugees. I hope that what they preach is the gospel of Jesus and not the gospel of WL.

[HERn]

I remember RK once preaching and criticizing Billy Graham for having a highway named after him in North Carolina. I doubt that Billy could could control NC politics. Although Billy was a fundamentalist he united many Protestant groups and even broke the racial barrier. WL on the other hand was a divider and condemner of every group not under his control. I don't know anyone who is a follower of Billy, but there are thousands that follow WL.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

Just heard that one of my family members with saints from his LC went to Germany to preach the gospel to Syrian refugees. I hope that what they preach is the gospel of Jesus and not the gospel of WL.

I have seen a good amount of propaganda about this on Facebook, not particular to the Syrian refugees, but to Germany. Apparently the Lord is "recovering" his testimony in Stuttgart. From these forums I discovered that the local church in Stuttgart basically dissipated in the late 80's. Here they are 30 years later, barely starting again from square one, and leaders are using what little is actually happening as some sort of "proof" that the Lord is "moving".

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

I remember RK once preaching and criticizing Billy Graham for having a highway named after him in North Carolina. I doubt that Billy could could control NC politics. Although Billy was a fundamentalist he united many Protestant groups and even broke the racial barrier. WL on the other hand was a divider and condemner of every group not under his control. I don't know anyone who is a follower of Billy, but there are thousands that follow WL.

Why is it Billy Graham is criticized so much in the local churches? Is it because of his effective evangelism?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have seen a good amount of propaganda about this on Facebook, not particular to the Syrian refugees, but to Germany. Apparently the Lord is "recovering" his testimony in Stuttgart. From these forums I discovered that the local church in Stuttgart basically dissipated in the late 80's. Here they are 30 years later, barely starting again from square one, and leaders are using what little is actually happening as some sort of "proof" that the Lord is "moving".

It is about refugees. There was a giant push for this during the recent Winter Training. You can track their effort here: https://www.facebook.com/germanyupdate

In the LC, the current interpretation of recent events is that the massive influx of Middle Eastern refugees is to accelerate the "Lord's move to Europe." Last year, LC leaders responded by beginning translation work of LSM materials into Farsi and Arabic, starting German and Arabic language lessons at the FTTA, and sending teams of LC members to Germany to visit refugee centers beginning in January. The trips are still ongoing.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

It is about refugees. There was a giant push for this during the recent Winter Training. You can track their effort here: https://www.facebook.com/germanyupdate

In the LC, the current interpretation of recent events is that the massive influx of Middle Eastern refugees is to accelerate the "Lord's move to Europe." Last year, LC leaders responded by beginning translation work of LSM materials into Farsi and Arabic, starting German and Arabic language lessons at the FTTA, and sending teams of LC members to Germany to visit refugee centers beginning in January. The trips are still ongoing.

Thanks Koinonia, this sounds good. Many on here have complained that the LC only seeks college educated good building material. Now we have an example of the LC reaching out to some of the less fortunate. It would be great to see the gospel reaching the Muslim people. Thanks for providing that information. Do you have anything else that can help us understand? All the best!

[HERn]

Well, I just read the following on Facebook.

"Please pray for this brother that he would be fully brought into the church life and that he would be a gospel seed to his friends."

Being fully brought into the church life is a worrisome sectarian divisive statement, I think. It really means to come under the ministry of WL as promulgated by the blended brothers and elders. It also means to submit yourself to the elders and become one with their thinking, practice, and opinions. It is a fully loaded phrase that that much could be written about. I'm throwing out the notion that the LSM LCs is the only place new Christians should be brought in to. Sorry for using Billy Graham again, but at the end of his meeting I believe there were "counsellors" from many denominations praying with people. I don't think any one denomination was emphasized as the one to bring someone fully into.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, I just read the following on Facebook.

"Please pray for this brother that he would be fully brought into the church life and that he would be a gospel seed to his friends."

Being fully brought into the church life is a worrisome sectarian divisive statement, I think. It really means to come under the ministry of WL as promulgated by the blended brothers and elders. It also means to submit yourself to the elders and become one with their thinking, practice, and opinions. It is a fully loaded phrase that that much could be written about. I'm throwing out the notion that the LSM LCs is the only place new Christians should be brought in to. Sorry for using Billy Graham again, but at the end of his meeting I believe there were "counsellors" from many denominations praying with people. I don't think any one denomination was emphasized as the one to bring someone fully into.

I am convinced that the average LCer (and especially the average FTTA "church kid") sees no reason to entertain a spiritual conversation with anyone but to try to reel the person in.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, I just read the following on Facebook.

"Please pray for this brother that he would be fully brought into the church life and that he would be a gospel seed to his friends."

Being fully brought into the church life is a worrisome sectarian divisive statement, I think. It really means to come under the ministry of WL as promulgated by the blended brothers and elders. It also means to submit yourself to the elders and become one with their thinking, practice, and opinions. It is a fully loaded phrase that that much could be written about. I'm throwing out the notion that the LSM LCs is the only place new Christians should be brought in to. Sorry for using Billy Graham again, but at the end of his meeting I believe there were "counsellors" from many denominations praying with people. I don't think any one denomination was emphasized as the one to bring someone fully into.

The attitude for years has been if a person receives the Lord in a LC setting, but doesn't fully come into the church life it's been a waste of time.
Someone like Billy Graham has been a subject of ridicule in the local churches at least since the early 1980's I can recall. I can only suspect his evangelism has been effective since the 1940's and he doesn't push a ministry.
Perhaps LC leaders are jealous and envious the recovery cannot match a fraction of Billy Graham's evangelism work.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

It is about refugees. There was a giant push for this during the recent Winter Training. You can track their effort here: https://www.facebook.com/germanyupdate

In the LC, the current interpretation of recent events is that the massive influx of Middle Eastern refugees is to accelerate the "Lord's move to Europe." Last year, LC leaders responded by beginning translation work of LSM materials into Farsi and Arabic, starting German and Arabic language lessons at the FTTA, and sending teams of LC members to Germany to visit refugee centers beginning in January. The trips are still ongoing.

The problem is that these people will be spoon-fed Witness Lee and not necessarily Christ. In other words, it's not good enough to accept and believe in the Lord, you also need to accept only their ministry and all that goes with it --unreservedly. So what you have is more LSM franchise assemblies composed of only those who accept WL as the infallible MOTA. If you do not fall into this category, ( you happen to have a rational brain ) then you will be cast aside - even if you are the most absolute for the Lord. There is nothing in the New Testament that sets up this type of assembly.

It will be interesting to see the result of all this. It is a very bold statement to declare (in essence) that the refugee crisis is God's way of adding to LSM churches

[Terry]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The problem is that these people will be spoon-fed Witness Lee and not necessarily Christ. In other words, it's not good enough to accept and believe in the Lord, you also need to accept only their ministry and all that goes with it --unreservedly. So what you have is more LSM franchise assemblies composed of only those who accept WL as the infallible MOTA. If you do not fall into this category, ( you happen to have a rational brain ) then you will be cast aside - even if you are the most absolute for the Lord. There is nothing in the New Testament that sets up this type of assembly.

It will be interesting to see the result of all this. It is a very bold statement to declare (in essence) that the refugee crisis is God's way of adding to LSM churches

NewManLiving, it took me years to accept local churches are essentially franchises. Just like McDonalds, Burger King, or where my 16 year old works at; DairyQueen. Just like these examples, LSM franchises have a particular menu it's consumers must accept. Don't care for LSM publications? Just as NewManLiving indicated, you will be cast aside.
It may be those absolute for the Lord will be categorized as "lukewarm" all because they are not absolute for "the ministry".

[HERn]

Quote: