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Old 06-26-2021, 02:54 AM   #1
SM
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Default Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) reason I left LR

Greetings from India- Kerala State, in the precious name of our Lord & savior Jesus Christ.
Need to introduce myself in brief.
I was born in a episcopal denomination family with 4 siblings, having basic religious values taught & practiced and had Sunday Church & regular family prayer every day, my parents were religious and often believed & practiced prayer. I personally thought religion to be man made stuff and means to apiece ones soul & community gathering and security more than Godliness , at a very young age was caught up among worldly friends and start smoking & occasional drinking & watching all movies & trained myself as boxer and had many friends , gang up almost every day for playing, strolling in the city, taunting ladies etc.
I was poor in studies & IQ, so had related discrimination & complex issues.
even i was thrown out of a school not faring well and as disciplinary action , had strong feeling of ending my life which was full of darkness & aimlessness.
At the age of 25 , i happen to attend a convention conducted by a Hindu converted Christian in 1991, which i intend to find fault , but the encounter there i had with Living Christ brought a marvelous transformation in my life.
The very next day experience Holy Spirit filling 19th Oct 1991, and I knew what Born again means , I was a New Creation, born of God, halleluiah, never looked back, i left all alone from my family to a Born again congregation , and start reading bible in a new way , now Bible, Jesus & Holy Spirit became my companion , wanted to honor God every where no matter what the price may be , even left secular studies & job to study bible in a bible school and preach Gospel to all, but the experience in Bible College was not encouraging, so quit it, start self study and self preaching the Gospel of Christ that i know and experienced, had strong feeling of Water Baptism, as i attended and read scripture , but refused for few months , considering that i have taken child baptism and is not required, until was convinced from Scripture the true meaning of baptism and its not for Child or adult baptism , but for those who believe in Jesus Christ and is born again , has to declare their inward transformation , as outward expression through public testimony that my old man is dead, and is buried and now new man is risen from dead with Christ resurrections power to lead a new life, i happily experience the true water baptism with joy 3rd Jan 1992 .
I moved from cities to cities in India, preach Gospel, then finally wanted my own source of income to support my self and needy, started business , but debt issues lead me to Gulf Countries in Oman, Kuwait, UAE, i attended mostly reformed Pentecostal Churches where Bible was given importance and a prominent place, until 1993 happen to be not satisfied with the small fellowship that i was in , they started giving more importance to outward expression of gifts and initial serious bible living was slowly replaced with outwardly show, at that time i happen to meet few saints from Local Church(LC), of Witness Lee, their songs was very much attractive and was drawn slowly to that fellowship and quit the old one by bidding farewell.
In 1993, was when i started fellowshipping with LC, i was warned by some friends about this group as cult, and i rebuked them for judging without knowing the reality and reading some negative comments from Internet sites.
But i was alerted & and cautious, start reading many negative stuff and positive stuff to judge myself from the Scripture , whenever i read Witness Lee ,i took Scripture and tested (Acts 17:11), which actually kept me safe , i used to discuss with my wife the issues that i see is not scriptural, since we had no other group to join, continued and had good family ties with all Siants in The Church, the more i read Witness Lee stuff, and Recovery Bible, the more i am convinced there is so many unhealthy and cultish nature approach in this group, still i continue and marking all problem in every reading, In LTM , Lord table meeting, and all other meetings they always take Witness Lee writings and very few even carry bible, which was very troublesome for me.
I had decided not to speak from WL books, but the Bible Portion which they consult and share, i read directly from Bible , which staunch WL old members were not happy, but i continue , until Dec, 2020, we slowly drift away to another Pentecostal Group and informed few elders in the Group of my disagreement with WL Church practices and teachings. They are silent in a deceptive way, and am expecting them to come to us for discussion and clarity, for which i wait, if Lord permits to speak truth in love .
I have to admit that this group in local level they are careful to be humble & lovely brother and sisters, we still love them and are careful not to attack them, we still want to be a good Christian brothers and sisters, irrespective of the false teaching and practices , there are some good stuff which in general missing in many fellowship outside LC:-
Some of the disagreement areas were as below, i cannot pin point all here but in nutshell :

● Allegorizing many passages in the Bible
●Ground of the church —one church per city.
●The minister of the age / Apostolic continuation
●A higher lexicon
●Being Philadelphia while everyone else is one of the other seven churches, or even Babylon.
●Claiming that Jesus is now the Holy Spirit.
●That Jesus is simply the Father.
●That to say that the "three" of the trinity are "persons" is to be tritheistic.
● The processed God ,concept is heretic.
●Partial rapture, multiple rapture
●Dispensational discipline/ millennium exclusion.
● About mankind, Regeneration distorted view of WL.
●Gap theory
●Deification/theosis — man becoming God
● Calling the name of Lord in vain by screaming repetition mantra
● "Amen ", misused repeatedly & in a meaning less way most of the time .
●Pray-reading in a way of mindless repetition
●Depersonalizing God into processes like watermelon
● Convenient interpretation and plagiarism (quote others as WL own view)
● teaching -devil dwells in the flesh of the believers .(personified )
● hypothetical statements in almost every interpretation, ignoring the context.
● adoption ( huiothesia ) an important teaching rejected and instead teach natural sonship, which Only begotten Son of God , Jesus is , no one else.
● Obsequious behavior of saints , replaced Holy Spirit role for WL...
●Cultish interpretation of 1 Cor 15:45 , Jesus became Holy Spirit .
● Mingling: an heretic teaching promoted all over the place .
●Pope type centralized messages and control, no freedom of exposition based on text and context , if done , considered denomination .
●Discourage bible study and teaching , only WL writings , even bible reading to focus on what WL said about the passages.
●Prayer pattern not as Jesus or apostle taught , Pray to The Father through Jesus in communion with Holy Spirit , but LR always chant "Oh Lord Jesus ", only ABBA Father for small portion of Father worship at Lords table .

* The Concept of Trinity is confusing , not scriptural and against Orthodox Christian belief dont use " Persons" instead "Three-One".
Confusing statement, say Father, Son, Holy Spirit is distinct but distinct in what ? Person, being , ?, God send His Son bible says but he make fun of such notion .
* Patripassianism is taught in his writing, to say Father suffered with Son, which 2nd century Tertullian and Hypolydian refuted such teaching brought by Paraxeas and Noetus of Syria.

still more, cannot remember, will share when Lord permits
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Old 06-26-2021, 08:43 AM   #2
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Pretty good list. A few comments:

Allegorizing. This is an interesting point. Nee and Lee were fans of the idea. They used it more than the NT writers did themselves.

And this is even a problem in reverse. If things were allegories, metaphors, etc., they sometimes tried to make them into facts. (And many Christian writers of all kind do this.) The most common place is with Revelation. A book of pictures and metaphors constantly understood as literal.

Rapture and Dispensational Issues. Popular ideas of the last 200 years that were never thought of in these ways in the 1,800 years prior. Not saying there couldn't be anything true about them. But they are too vaguely embedded in parables and metaphorical writings to generate the kinds of certainty that are being taught. If anything, the whole purpose was to instill the idea that we need to be ready, not to spend time trying to figure out how literal the words might or might not be.

Gap Theory. While I have little use for claims of certainty on this idea, I am fairly certain that from the beginnings of creation until the appearance of man, and the events up to the flood are likely to have involved much more significant amounts of time than the 6 days and the limited number of years recorded in Genesis. The detailed chronology of creation was not its purpose and therefore I have no problem with this. As for a pre-Adamic race that was destroyed, I cannot say, but I have reasonable skepticism about it.

But there is one question. You seem to have been warned about the LC early in your stay there and rather consistently used "unapproved" sources and methods in your study, yet stayed around long enough to have that many things to disagree with. If I had started seeing many errors like that, I would have moved on before the list got that long. Something made you want to stay. What was it? You indicate that there was nowhere else to go. Was this because you were influenced by the notion that the LC gives of "nowhere else to go," or was it that isolated a place with truly nowhere else?
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Old 06-28-2021, 09:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) reason I left LR

Greetings Bro.in the matchless name of our Lord savior Jesus Christ.
1. Allegorizing is a dangerous tool, many false doctrines, practices & belief have crept into the Church in doing so, we should put full -stop where Apostles & Jesus has done so & never attempt to give meaning to each & everything in OT specially out of context . Let Scripture speak for itself ..
2. Like Rapture & Dispensational issue, Gap theory in my learning is also New age invention to validate and find answer to modern science assumption ,& criticism of Bible , anyway we just believe as The Word given to us without any question , until & unless it is clearly & explicitly stated in Scripture .
3.When i mentioned i had no other fellowship to go, i meant not because of compulsion from LC, but , due to my leading deep within to investigate & to see for myself what they truly teach false Gospel as they are accused off.?. I personally don't buy third party conviction until myself is convinced, yes warning from my spiritual friends helped me to be extra careful , to examine every statement uttered & read there. I believed i have learned many lessons good & bad through this difficult journey with LC . I consider them to be my brothers & sisters , hijacked by the enemy , should pray & speak the truth in Love to help them to abandon the obsequious way to saying Amen to anything & everything WL books say, turn to the Scripture and its pure revelation to be brought back to true fellowship with the Lord .
Peace & Grace be to all.
Amen
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Old 06-28-2021, 10:18 AM   #4
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I believed i have learned many lessons good & bad through this difficult journey with LC...
Amen to that!
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Old 06-29-2021, 01:47 PM   #5
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Pretty good list. A few comments:

Allegorizing. This is an interesting point. Nee and Lee were fans of the idea. They used it more than the NT writers did themselves.

And this is even a problem in reverse. If things were allegories, metaphors, etc., they sometimes tried to make them into facts. (And many Christian writers of all kind do this.) The most common place is with Revelation. A book of pictures and metaphors constantly understood as literal.

What are some examples of lee and nee doing this? Not sure I know what this is.
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Old 06-29-2021, 04:42 PM   #6
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Maybe "allegorizing" is not always the correct term. But they made examples and metaphors out of things that weren't. For example, in one place the scripture says "power," the original used a Greek word dynmos (sp?) that translates into "dynamo" in English which they expounded as meaning power generation, transmission over wires, and the practical application of electricity to some device, such as a light bulb. Not necessarily an incorrect statement. But not what the word/passage was saying. So it is, at best, possibly true, not definitely true.

I realize that this one item does not establish some error. But the propensity to this kind of thing with respect to what is not actually there is an invitation for error. Yet they sold it as God's unique word for his unique ministry (paraphrased).
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Old 06-29-2021, 06:59 PM   #7
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Maybe "allegorizing" is not always the correct term. But they made examples and metaphors out of things that weren't. For example, in one place the scripture says "power," the original used a Greek word dynmos (sp?) that translates into "dynamo" in English which they expounded as meaning power generation, transmission over wires, and the practical application of electricity to some device, such as a light bulb. Not necessarily an incorrect statement. But not what the word/passage was saying. So it is, at best, possibly true, not definitely true.

I realize that this one item does not establish some error. But the propensity to this kind of thing with respect to what is not actually there is an invitation for error. Yet they sold it as God's unique word for his unique ministry (paraphrased).
Ah I see. Yeah I’ve noticed that a lot. It’s sometimes difficult to notice because some of it sounds good you know?
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Old 06-29-2021, 08:25 PM   #8
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Ah I see. Yeah I’ve noticed that a lot. It’s sometimes difficult to notice because some of it sounds good you know?
While not an allegory, Lee had a “habit” of taking a descriptive passage, e.g., a description of the 7 churches in Revelation, and turning it into a prescription/doctrine/teaching for how the church is supposed to be “structured”, i.e., “one church/one city.”

The story about Noah and his sons (description) became the “prescription” for delegated authority.

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Old 07-03-2021, 09:56 AM   #9
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What’s wrong with the gap theory? Seems like a possibility.
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Old 07-03-2021, 04:33 PM   #10
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Ah I see. Yeah I’ve noticed that a lot. It’s sometimes difficult to notice because some of it sounds good you know?
Yes, even when listening to him live with all his quirks, it often did sound good. It just seemed so right. At least to the uncritical mind. And most of us listened to the "turn off your mind and get your spirit in gear" manta and were therefore uncritical.
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Old 07-03-2021, 04:44 PM   #11
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What’s wrong with the gap theory? Seems like a possibility.
Yes, it qualifies as a possibility. Like a lot of things.

But as Nell just indirectly stated, Lee (and Nee) were great at taking what cannot be precluded and turning it into absolutes.

Could it really be intended that there only be one coordinated set of elders in any one city no matter how many functional assemblies were required. Yes, it could be. But it never says it. And there are statements that seem to work against it.

Could there have been a pre-Adamic race that was destroyed completely and the Genesis 1:2 --> account is of a re-creation after some lengthy gap? Yes, it could be. But it requires making a prescription out of a couple of vague OT references.

And so on.

So there could be a gap that somewhat resembles Pember's theory (finally remembered his name). Or there could just be a lengthy creation that is described as a play with "days" standing in for "acts." Full of creation, extinction (on the part of some things) and finally culminating in mankind (no offense re the gender issues discussions, past or present).
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Old 07-03-2021, 09:39 PM   #12
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Yes, it qualifies as a possibility. Like a lot of things.

But as Nell just indirectly stated, Lee (and Nee) were great at taking what cannot be precluded and turning it into absolutes.

Could it really be intended that there only be one coordinated set of elders in any one city no matter how many functional assemblies were required. Yes, it could be. But it never says it. And there are statements that seem to work against it.

Could there have been a pre-Adamic race that was destroyed completely and the Genesis 1:2 --> account is of a re-creation after some lengthy gap? Yes, it could be. But it requires making a prescription out of a couple of vague OT references.

And so on.

So there could be a gap that somewhat resembles Pember's theory (finally remembered his name). Or there could just be a lengthy creation that is described as a play with "days" standing in for "acts." Full of creation, extinction (on the part of some things) and finally culminating in mankind (no offense re the gender issues discussions, past or present).

I see, rather than say “hey this might not be true but here’s a theory” they say “this is what happened.”
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Old 07-05-2021, 08:36 AM   #13
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I see, rather than say “hey this might not be true but here’s a theory” they say “this is what happened.”
UtahGiant,

Another thing that is often overlooked is that every interpretation of scripture is--just that--interpretations of men. The interpretation may be pretty good, or pretty not good.

The best interpretations, IMHO, is the ones where you can read the scripture and believe it, as written.

For example, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Others may question and argue the validity of this verse, but I don't need an "interpretation". I can read.

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Old 07-05-2021, 10:34 AM   #14
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UtahGiant,

Another thing that is often overlooked is that every interpretation of scripture is--just that--interpretations of men. The interpretation may be pretty good, or pretty not good.

The best interpretations, IMHO, is the ones where you can read the scripture and believe it, as written.

For example, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Others may question and argue the validity of this verse, but I don't need an "interpretation". I can read.

Nell
Great point, it’s not limited to the scope of the recovery. That being said, the interpretations in the recovery of questioned.. the response is always to point to the fact that Lee is the minster of the age. There’s not room for critical discussion which is frustrating.
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Old 07-05-2021, 10:46 AM   #15
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They have a spirit of fear brother, and they exalt a man and treat him near the point of idolatry (in my view). The words of Lee supersede Christ, even if you were to show scripture contradicting Lee and showcasing the words of Lord God himself speaking directly, they would still reject God word and stick with the words of Lee. They either awkwardly just ignore or get silent when they come across verses that contradict their doctrine or just go full on Leeite and parade the Minister of The Age/Oracle of God nonsense. They have these weird sayings like "Christ replaces your culture" then have these weird cultural practices and teachings that go against the word of God and who Christ is. They have a spirit of fear, and this fear is directed towards Lee and the source of all this is the "enemy". There is hardly to no fear of God in this organization. In fact, they belittle the fear of God and replace it with fear of man. There are so many things just bizarre about this group but when you look at its fruits and the tree, its really no surprise things are the way they are.
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Old 07-05-2021, 03:08 PM   #16
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They have a spirit of fear brother, and they exalt a man and treat him near the point of idolatry (in my view). The words of Lee supersede Christ, even if you were to show scripture contradicting Lee and showcasing the words of Lord God himself speaking directly, they would still reject God word and stick with the words of Lee. They either awkwardly just ignore or get silent when they come across verses that contradict their doctrine or just go full on Leeite and parade the Minister of The Age/Oracle of God nonsense. They have these weird sayings like "Christ replaces your culture" then have these weird cultural practices and teachings that go against the word of God and who Christ is. They have a spirit of fear, and this fear is directed towards Lee and the source of all this is the "enemy". There is hardly to no fear of God in this organization. In fact, they belittle the fear of God and replace it with fear of man. There are so many things just bizarre about this group but when you look at its fruits and the tree, its really no surprise things are the way they are.
Are there any black and white contradictions though? Most of what I’ve seen are somewhat subtle.
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Old 07-05-2021, 04:40 PM   #17
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Here is Witness Lee trying to delegitimize the entire book of Psalms. The ENTIRE BOOK.

From the Life Study of Psalms, an Introductory Word.

" The book of Psalms is not of doctrines or of any kind of teachings. The writings of the Psalms are in the form of praises. These praises were not composed by doctrine or understanding of teachings."


Well, scripture from the Holy Bible has something to say about that blatant attack of the divine scripture from Witness Lee.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness;
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Old 07-06-2021, 09:59 AM   #18
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I would suggest that there is generally some truth to the idea that Psalms is not a book of doctrines. But as the quotation of 2nd Timothy suggests, unless we want to exclude it from scripture (and Lee did seem to lean that way), it still is profitable for teaching, among other things. And I'm pretty sure that most of us can agree with that from our own assessment.
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Old 07-06-2021, 10:14 AM   #19
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I would suggest that there is generally some truth to the idea that Psalms is not a book of doctrines. But as the quotation of 2nd Timothy suggests, unless we want to exclude it from scripture (and Lee did seem to lean that way), it still is profitable for teaching, among other things. And I'm pretty sure that most of us can agree with that from our own assessment.

Yeah that users post seems like a stretch. Is there anything explicitly black and white?
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Old 07-06-2021, 11:44 AM   #20
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In my view the post on the Psalms is as "black and white" as it gets. I know Aron is quite the enthusiast on the book of Psalms and he has read some scholarly works on the Psalms, so hopefully he can chime on this thread.

Regardless, Witness Lee words were very clear, he was not just "leaning" towards discrediting the Psalms, he as clear as day. That is the epitome of black and white contradiction. The idea of the Psalms having no teaching and or doctrines? Seems like a person full of ignorance and a lack of capacity to really do a deep exegesis of scripture. There are brilliant Old Testament scholars out there, they are way beyond some backwater cult leader Lee who thinks he was the minister of the age and oracle of God. I am sure if one spends time, they can find brilliant publications on the book of Psalms. I hope Aron comes on this thread and gives some recommendations.

As for more examples of contradictions, here is a forum post from Jane Carole. It demonstrates how Witness Lee forked tongue caught itself in a twist.

Titled- Witness Lee actually condemned himself as a heretic

Post-

Over a decade ago, while posting on another forum about the Local Church, I discovered one day that Lee had actually actually called himself a heretic. I wrote a post explaining how. I am putting the essence of that post here for others to read because the heretical teaching was foundational to his whole ministry: Christ became the Life-Giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45b)

First of all, when some, whom Witness Lee called “opposers,” questioned him for ignoring the indefinite article “a” in 1 Cor. 15:45b and teaching that the last Adam became “the” life-giving Spirit, he responded:
“the crucial matter here is not whether the article is definite or indefinite; it is the clear mentioning of the life-giving Spirit. Do our opposers believe that there are two Spirits who give life, the Holy Spirit and the life-giving Spirit? It is heretical to teach that there are two life-giving Spirits, two Spirits who give life.” (Bound Life-Study of I Corinthians, p. 617)
He was accusing his opposers of saying there were two Spirits who give life because they believed 1 Cor. 15:45b said “a” (not the) Life-giving spirit. His point was that there was only one Spirit that could give life and it was the one Christ became. Lee was equating the 1 Cor. 15:45b Spirit with the Holy Spirit. (A very confusing argument, no doubt.) Lee pronounced his opposers beliefs as heretical.

I heard his argument and accepted it at the time. He continually stressed the importance of the word “became” in I Cor. 15:45b, saying that Christ became the life-giving Spirit through the process of Christ’s death and resurrection. (The Divine Economy, page 77). He also taught that the Spirit we receive whenever we call on the Lord is this Life-Giving Spirit that Christ became. I believed this also.
Then, a few years after leaving the Local Church, I was suddenly surprised while reading Romans 8:11 one day. I saw that this verse exposed Witness Lee’s teaching on 1 Cor. 15:45b and left him holding the heretic label he had applied to others.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken [give life to] your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:11)
First, this verse shows that there was a Spirit that could give life (a life-giving Spirit) already in existence before Christ was crucified. (Lee apparently believes Rom. 8:11, having used it in his preaching.)
Rom. 8:11 tells us plainly that there was a Spirit that could give life present before Christ was crucified. When Christ was in the grave, the Spirit mentioned in Rom 8:11 gave life to Christ and raised Him from the dead!
Second, Rom. 8:24 also says that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is the Spirit that dwells in us now and gives life even to our mortal bodies.

Then I found this quote by Lee. According to Him, God has gone through a process to become something brand new in the universe—the Life-giving Spirit. He said:
In His resurrection a life-giving Spirit was produced (1 Cor. 15:45). Before Christ’s resurrection, there was not such a life-giving Spirit in the universe. John 7:39 says that “the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”; that is, Jesus had not yet entered into resurrection (Luke 24:26). On the day that He entered into resurrection, the life-giving Spirit was produced.

Source of quote: ( “Chapter 3—In Salvation—A Heavenly and Divine View— Dying an All-inclusive Death and Entering into an All-producing Resurrection.” The Organic Union in God’s Relationship with Man. Anaheim, California: Living Stream Ministry Online Publications, 1997–2008. Accessed Mar. 16, 2010 at http://ministrybooks.org/alphabetical.cfm. )
He taught, and his followers believe, that this newly produced Life-giving Spirit has an additional
element added to it, the uplifted human living of Christ.

So, if Lee tells us that according to 1 Cor 15:45b Christ became the Life-giving Spirit and Lee also teaches Rom. 8:11 which says that the Spirit gave life to Christ and raised Him from the dead, we have the problem of him teaching that there are two Spirits that can give life. So, which is it?
It looks like we have found in Lee’ teaching two Spirits that can give life. Now, remember, Lee wrote, “It is heretical to teach that there are two life-giving Spirits, two Spirits who give life.” Hmmmm. Looks like it wasn’t the “opposers,” but Witness Lee who taught heresy.

Link- https://lemonstograpes.com/forums/topic/witness-lee-actually-condemned-himself-as-a-heretic/
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Old 07-07-2021, 01:26 PM   #21
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Regardless, Witness Lee words were very clear, he was not just "leaning" towards discrediting the Psalms, he as clear as day. That is the epitome of black and white contradiction.
I was only less than all-out down on Lee because I think his position was nuanced. He praised certain Psalms but panned most of them. Just trying to look at things in the shades of grey that they truly are rather than hold to the absolute black-and-white positions that get one labeled a zealot.
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Old 07-08-2021, 03:42 PM   #22
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Are there any black and white contradictions though? Most of what I’ve seen are somewhat subtle.
There are some pretty black and white contradictions in my observation.

1. Watchman Nee specialized and emphasized autonomous local churches. Later he did a 180 degree turn and "recovered" (nyuk-nyuk) the Jerusalem Principle, in which all churches were merely franchises looking to their "Jerusalem" which was naturally his Shanghai Assembly.

2. Watchman Nee was removed from a position of authority by his own hand-picked elders in the Shanghai Assembly for immorality, then later "restored" to pre-eminence. Not just fellowship, not just prominence, but preeminence. After removal by his own elders, to be restored not just to fellowship but leadership - on what basis? None ever given. Just that he's supposedly a Spiritual Giant, the Seer of the Divine Revelation of the Present Age. Where is any basis in scripture? None. In fact the opposite is repeatedly recommended by Jesus and the Twelve and Paul. When the supposed Spiritual Giant stumbles and falls, what havoc on the faith. Look at what later happened to the flock when Nee confessed before Government authorities.

3. When Nee confessed later in court to immorality, he was either lying to protect himself from greater punishment, or he was telling the truth that he was in fact guilty of such actions. In either case he is exposed utterly. And he knew what his confession would do to the faith of others. Yet he did it anyway.

4. Women in the Local Church. Watchman Nee used female lieutenants, but in the Local Church of Witness Lee they could only cook, raise children, and get up and testify after meetings how wonderful everything was. Where would Dora Yu fit into Witness Lee's Local Church? No where is where. But still there are a few vestiges to remind of the glaring discrepancy between then and now - they still sell Mary McDonough's book "God's Plan of Redemption" on the Living Stream Ministry Book Sales page. Supposedly Ms McDonough "recovered the three parts of man".

5. Where does Paul teach 'intensification' as part of God's economy in his epistles? Where is the basis in Paul's writings to include intensification of the Holy Spirit? Yet Witness Lee said that this was fully the last third of the "Incarnation/Inclusion/Intensification" of the Processed Triune God, that Paul told Timothy to stay behind in Ephesus and make sure everyone got taught. But where in the NT do we see Paul teaching this? No where. So how does Witness Lee say that Paul was promoting this as God's economy?

6. Despising the poor. When with the FTTA, I heard the head trainer say, "Don't waste your time" ministering to the poor - instead go for the so-called good building material, which was clearly delineated as Caucasian college students.

7. Where does the NT say that the Psalms are low, fallen, natural human concepts, or mixed human sentiments? There are literally dozens of citations showing Christ in relation with the Father.

"I come to do Thy will". The Son speaks to the Father.
"He will give charge to His angels, to protect you, and bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone." The Spirit speaking to the Son
"You are My Son - this day I have begotten You" The Father speaks to the Son.

Where do we see NT reference describing the fallen psalmist writing vainly of a fallen human concept? In Matthew 22:43 Jesus said, "David was in spirit, writing of me [Christ the Lord - Christos Kurios]" Where does Jesus warn off the readers of the NT to David being in his natural concepts? There is simply no permission, no precedent.

8. When WL & Cronies defied NT convention they simply invented new ones. Instead of "the elders' children should be believers, without reproach" per Paul, we got "Drunken Noah" derived from the OT. Instead of "with the word of two or three witnesses it shall be established" we got "cover the brothers" and "rebellions" when those two or three people's consciences were engaged to witness the truth.

9. We got interpretations where hand-beaten metal calyxes and pomegranates were supposedly showing that every single church should be "absolutely identical" and "with no differences whatever" (per RecV footnotes). Instead of the varied gifts of God we got one single gifted person and everyone lining up to praise him after every message on being God's Chosen Man of the Hour.

All of this (and much more) leads one to consider strongly that the spirit behind all this is not of God but continually strives to keep people from God. Paul said of such spirits, "We were not subject to these ones, no not even for an hour." I was subject to such a spirit for more than an hour, even when the "red flags" as seen above were waving broadly above, warning all to stay far away. And for that I repent.
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Last edited by aron; 07-08-2021 at 05:28 PM. Reason: editing
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