Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) reason I left LR

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

I see, rather than say “hey this might not be true but here’s a theory” they say “this is what happened.”

UtahGiant,

Another thing that is often overlooked is that every interpretation of scripture is--just that--interpretations of men. The interpretation may be pretty good, or pretty not good.

The best interpretations, IMHO, is the ones where you can read the scripture and believe it, as written.

For example, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Others may question and argue the validity of this verse, but I don't need an "interpretation". I can read.

Nell

[UtahGiant]

Originally Posted by Nell

UtahGiant,

Another thing that is often overlooked is that every interpretation of scripture is--just that--interpretations of men. The interpretation may be pretty good, or pretty not good.

The best interpretations, IMHO, is the ones where you can read the scripture and believe it, as written.

For example, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Others may question and argue the validity of this verse, but I don't need an "interpretation". I can read.

Nell

Great point, it’s not limited to the scope of the recovery. That being said, the interpretations in the recovery of questioned.. the response is always to point to the fact that Lee is the minster of the age. There’s not room for critical discussion which is frustrating.

They have a spirit of fear brother, and they exalt a man and treat him near the point of idolatry (in my view). The words of Lee supersede Christ, even if you were to show scripture contradicting Lee and showcasing the words of Lord God himself speaking directly, they would still reject God word and stick with the words of Lee. They either awkwardly just ignore or get silent when they come across verses that contradict their doctrine or just go full on Leeite and parade the Minister of The Age/Oracle of God nonsense. They have these weird sayings like "Christ replaces your culture" then have these weird cultural practices and teachings that go against the word of God and who Christ is. They have a spirit of fear, and this fear is directed towards Lee and the source of all this is the "enemy". There is hardly to no fear of God in this organization. In fact, they belittle the fear of God and replace it with fear of man. There are so many things just bizarre about this group but when you look at its fruits and the tree, its really no surprise things are the way they are.

[UtahGiant]

Originally Posted by Moon

They have a spirit of fear brother, and they exalt a man and treat him near the point of idolatry (in my view). The words of Lee supersede Christ, even if you were to show scripture contradicting Lee and showcasing the words of Lord God himself speaking directly, they would still reject God word and stick with the words of Lee. They either awkwardly just ignore or get silent when they come across verses that contradict their doctrine or just go full on Leeite and parade the Minister of The Age/Oracle of God nonsense. They have these weird sayings like "Christ replaces your culture" then have these weird cultural practices and teachings that go against the word of God and who Christ is. They have a spirit of fear, and this fear is directed towards Lee and the source of all this is the "enemy". There is hardly to no fear of God in this organization. In fact, they belittle the fear of God and replace it with fear of man. There are so many things just bizarre about this group but when you look at its fruits and the tree, its really no surprise things are the way they are.

Are there any black and white contradictions though? Most of what I’ve seen are somewhat subtle.

Here is Witness Lee trying to delegitimize the entire book of Psalms. The ENTIRE BOOK.

From the Life Study of Psalms, an Introductory Word.

" The book of Psalms is not of doctrines or of any kind of teachings. The writings of the Psalms are in the form of praises. These praises were not composed by doctrine or understanding of teachings."


Well, scripture from the Holy Bible has something to say about that blatant attack of the divine scripture from Witness Lee.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness;

[OBW]

I would suggest that there is generally some truth to the idea that Psalms is not a book of doctrines. But as the quotation of 2nd Timothy suggests, unless we want to exclude it from scripture (and Lee did seem to lean that way), it still is profitable for teaching, among other things. And I'm pretty sure that most of us can agree with that from our own assessment.

[UtahGiant]

Originally Posted by OBW

I would suggest that there is generally some truth to the idea that Psalms is not a book of doctrines. But as the quotation of 2nd Timothy suggests, unless we want to exclude it from scripture (and Lee did seem to lean that way), it still is profitable for teaching, among other things. And I'm pretty sure that most of us can agree with that from our own assessment.

Yeah that users post seems like a stretch. Is there anything explicitly black and white?

[aron]

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

Are there any black and white contradictions though? Most of what I’ve seen are somewhat subtle.

There are some pretty black and white contradictions in my observation.

1. Watchman Nee specialized and emphasized autonomous local churches. Later he did a 180 degree turn and "recovered" (nyuk-nyuk) the Jerusalem Principle, in which all churches were merely franchises looking to their "Jerusalem" which was naturally his Shanghai Assembly.

2. Watchman Nee was removed from a position of authority by his own hand-picked elders in the Shanghai Assembly for immorality, then later "restored" to pre-eminence. Not just fellowship, not just prominence, but preeminence. After removal by his own elders, to be restored not just to fellowship but leadership - on what basis? None ever given. Just that he's supposedly a Spiritual Giant, the Seer of the Divine Revelation of the Present Age. Where is any basis in scripture? None. In fact the opposite is repeatedly recommended by Jesus and the Twelve and Paul. When the supposed Spiritual Giant stumbles and falls, what havoc on the faith. Look at what later happened to the flock when Nee confessed before Government authorities.

3. When Nee confessed later in court to immorality, he was either lying to protect himself from greater punishment, or he was telling the truth that he was in fact guilty of such actions. In either case he is exposed utterly. And he knew what his confession would do to the faith of others. Yet he did it anyway.

4. Women in the Local Church. Watchman Nee used female lieutenants, but in the Local Church of Witness Lee they could only cook, raise children, and get up and testify after meetings how wonderful everything was. Where would Dora Yu fit into Witness Lee's Local Church? No where is where. But still there are a few vestiges to remind of the glaring discrepancy between then and now - they still sell Mary McDonough's book "God's Plan of Redemption" on the Living Stream Ministry Book Sales page. Supposedly Ms McDonough "recovered the three parts of man".

5. Where does Paul teach 'intensification' as part of God's economy in his epistles? Where is the basis in Paul's writings to include intensification of the Holy Spirit? Yet Witness Lee said that this was fully the last third of the "Incarnation/Inclusion/Intensification" of the Processed Triune God, that Paul told Timothy to stay behind in Ephesus and make sure everyone got taught. But where in the NT do we see Paul teaching this? No where. So how does Witness Lee say that Paul was promoting this as God's economy?

6. Despising the poor. When with the FTTA, I heard the head trainer say, "Don't waste your time" ministering to the poor - instead go for the so-called good building material, which was clearly delineated as Caucasian college students.

7. Where does the NT say that the Psalms are low, fallen, natural human concepts, or mixed human sentiments? There are literally dozens of citations showing Christ in relation with the Father.

"I come to do Thy will". The Son speaks to the Father.
"He will give charge to His angels, to protect you, and bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone." The Spirit speaking to the Son
"You are My Son - this day I have begotten You" The Father speaks to the Son.

Where do we see NT reference describing the fallen psalmist writing vainly of a fallen human concept? In Matthew 22:43 Jesus said, "David was in spirit, writing of me [Christ the Lord - Christos Kurios]" Where does Jesus warn off the readers of the NT to David being in his natural concepts? There is simply no permission, no precedent.

8. When WL & Cronies defied NT convention they simply invented new ones. Instead of "the elders' children should be believers, without reproach" per Paul, we got "Drunken Noah" derived from the OT. Instead of "with the word of two or three witnesses it shall be established" we got "cover the brothers" and "rebellions" when those two or three people's consciences were engaged to witness the truth.

9. We got interpretations where hand-beaten metal calyxes and pomegranates were supposedly showing that every single church should be "absolutely identical" and "with no differences whatever" (per RecV footnotes). Instead of the varied gifts of God we got one single gifted person and everyone lining up to praise him after every message on being God's Chosen Man of the Hour.

All of this (and much more) leads one to consider strongly that the spirit behind all this is not of God but continually strives to keep people from God. Paul said of such spirits, "We were not subject to these ones, no not even for an hour." I was subject to such a spirit for more than an hour, even when the "red flags" as seen above were waving broadly above, warning all to stay far away. And for that I repent.