Daily Devotional Inspirations

[Sons to Glory!]

I read and meditate with a few different devotionals daily. These include "Daily Open Windows" by T. Austin Sparks; "God is Enough" by Hannah W. Smith; "The Supplied Life" by Bill Freeman; and "Daily Light" by Ann Graham Lotz (et. al.). Christians I know often send me things from other daily devotionals, such as "None but the Hungry Heart" by Miles Stanford and "Jesus Calling" by sarah Young. The Lord has spoken to me through these, and other devotional sources.

So I thought to start a thread whereby we could post things read in devotionals that touch and inspire us. And, if we choose, we can say a few words about what we were impressed or comforted from it and how it helped us pursue Christ.

Below is something I read from The Supplied Life for today.

A personal testimony - December 1st
"Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was
unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart." JEREMIAH 15:16 (KJV)

Many years ago I began to learn the secret revealed in this verse.
After being a Christian for about nine years, I came to a point
where I felt dry, discouraged, and defeated. I tried to overcome my
failing self in many areas, but found I lacked the necessary strength.
This went on for several weeks, and then somehow it occurred to me
that I should begin reading my Bible three times a day in a regular
way. So I began reading the Old Testament in the morning, Psalms
and Proverbs at noon, and the New Testament in the evening. It was
amazing to see what happened to me within one week. I discovered
that the Word of God was food! At that time the Lord impressed me
with Jeremiah 15:16.

Formerly, my time with the Lord in the Word was mainly an
exercise of my eyes and my mind. But when I discovered that the
nature of God's Word was food, I began to read the Word with a
praying spirit. The Bible became a new book in my hands. It became
a book of enjoyment, a book from which I could feed upon the living
God. I found myself reading and praying simultaneously and then
taking up a verse or a phrase and beginning to fellowship with the
Lord with the very words of Scripture. I found I did not have to strive
to find what to pray. The Word of God itself became the content of
my prayer. While doing this I found a mysterious yet real supply
spontaneously infusing my inner man. No longer was I merely
looking at black and white letters on a page or trying to mentally
understand things, which had often left me spiritually deadened. For
the first time in my Christian life, I began to enjoy God Himself in
tile pages of the Bible.

Eating three square meals a day by feeding upon the Word taught
me experientially that my inner man requires food just as my
physical body does. The reason for my defeated Christian life, I
discovered, was simply lack of nourishment. In studying the Bible
for seven years, it had become to me a book of theology, sermons
and outlines, rather than a book of enjoyment and suppl y. I realized
that the mere knowledge of the Bible could not change me. It was
only when the Bible was translated into food by my praying with and
over the verses that it turned into enjoyment rather than mere
thought. I realized then, as I do today, that one of the secrets of
spending time with the Lord is to feed upon the Word.

This is an encouragement to me to be diligent to feed on His word!

[Sons to Glory!]

I appreciated the message in this devotional a couple days ago, from "God is Enough" by Hannah W. Smith.

DECEMBER 3
WRECKING BUT LOVING

A seasoned saint was asked by a despairing Christian, "Doesn't
the world look to you like a wreck?" "Yes," was the cheerful and
confident reply, "like the wreck of a bursting seed." Any of us who
have watched the first sproutings of an oak tree from the heart of a
decaying acorn will understand what this means. Before tile acorn
can bring forth the oak it must become a wreck, No plant ever came
from any but a wrecked seed.

Our Lord uses this fact to teach us the meaning of His processes
with us, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat rail into
the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, il brinqeth forth
much fruit" (John 12:24).

The explanation of the apparent wreckage of the world at large
or of our own personal lives in particular is here set forth. Looked at
in this light, we can understand how it is that the Lord can be good
yet permit the existence of sorrow and wrong in the world He has
created and in the lives of the human beings He loves,

It is God's very goodness that compels Him to permit sorrow
and wrong. He knows that only through such apparent wreckage can
His glorious purposes for us be brought to pass. And we whose hearts
also long for that fruition, will, if we understand His ways, be able to
praise Him for all His goodness even when things seem their hardest
and most mysterious.

Isn't that just the case in our lives and the world around us!? That is, things look a mess and impossible, and then He can come in and it will therefore be much easier to see that He deserves all the credit and glory!

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's a good one someone sent me yesterday.

from None But The Hungry Heart

12-6. Sustained

“Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and He shall sustain thee” (Ps. 55:22).
Our Father’s living waters flow both in summer and winter (Zech. 14:8). He provides the barrenness of winter in order to cut us off from every other supply, and teach us to draw from His ever-flowing water of life.

“The Father passes us through all the seasons here; and the winter, the most trying one, is the most helpful, if we are really cast on Him in it. Then the real measure of our dependence on Him is ascertained, and also the extent of our resources in Him; and we make acquisitions in Him which we never make at any other time. All our growth and fruit depend on our winters, or rather on how we pass through them.

“The more we can rest in Him the more we are independent of everything outside of Him at such a time, the more vigor we really possess; and the better we get over the winter, be it ever so severe. If I am independent of the winter, it is evident that I have mastered it, and not it me; and if I have done so, through the strength of the Lord Jesus, I am relieved though in no human way. Peter is delivered from prison in a superhuman way; but first he, though enduring a very trying winter, could lay him down and sleep-take his rest, because the Lord sustained him.” - J.B.S.

“It is a wonderful thing to be so satisfied with the Lord Jesus’ company, that we can be tranquil about everything. I remember when I used to think that I should be happy beyond conception if I were able to say, ‘I will fear no evil; my heart is fixed, trusting in the Lord.’ In order to reach this, you must find Him enough, without anything else. You can never prove the worth of anyone, until you are absolutely dependent upon him.” -J.B.S.

“I laid down and slept; I awaked; for the Lord sustained me” (Ps. 3:5).

In this Christian life journey we are on, He is persuading us that He loves us and that He's got this! This takes various things, the ups & downs and the sideways stuff, so we really see, experience and know that God is enough.

[Sons to Glory!]

This post is not from a devotional, but rather from Merlin Carothers famous book, "Prison to Praise."

Wherever I went I now shared what I had dis-
covered about the power of praise. I was begin-
ning to learn that praise was not just a form of
worship or prayer, but also a way of waging spir-
tual warfare. Often when someone began to
praise God for the problems that faced him, he
found that Satan increased his attacks and the
situation appeared to become worse instead of
better. Many who tried the way of praise became
discouraged and were unable to hold on to their
belief that God was in charge.

Others simply didn't understand and refused
to try praising God for unpleasant things. It Just
doesn't make sense," they'd say. "I'm not going to
praise God for something I just don't believe He
has anything to do with. How can God have any-
thing to do with my broken arm or my wrecked
car or my husband's horrible temper? I'd be
foolish to thank Him for something like that."
Of course it doesn't make sense. The question
is, does it work? It didn't make much sense when
Jesus said, "Leap for joy when you are hungry or
poor or persecuted." Yet He very definitely told
us to do just that. In Nehemiah 8:10 I read: "The
joy of the Lord is your strength."

The enemy's arrows just can't penetrate the
joy of someone who is praising the Lord. In II
Chronicles 20 we read how a whole army was de-
feated when the Israelites simply praised the
Lord and believed Him when He said that the
battle wasn't theirs, but His.
The message is just as clear today. The battle
isn't ours; it is God's. While we praise Him, He
sends our enemies scurrying.

This is very meaningful for me, because the Lord has personally been impressing on me, and many I fellowship with, regarding this passage in 2 Chronicles 20:15 & 17, "This is what the LORD says to you: ‘Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God’s . . . You need not fight in this battle; take your position, stand and watch the salvation of the Lord in your behalf"

Christ finished it! Now all we need to do is to praise Him and have boldness to make that connection with Him and all His amazing power toward us (and in us) is already made available! (a brother this morning said it was like we have been given the battery fully charged, but sometimes the connections get a little dirty and simply need a quick cleaning. To me, this is the same as what the Lord spoke to His disciples in John 13:10, that only their feet need a little washing because of the dust of the earth, not their whole body . . . i.e., just a dirty connection, easily taken care of)

[Sons to Glory!]

I appreciated this from "The Supplied Life."

The Liberty of the Saints December 14th

"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but
righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." ROMANS 14:17

By observing Paul's interaction with the saints in the New
Testament letters, we can see that he was always careful to
speak in a way that preserved the liberty of the saints (Philem. 12:
14; Rom. 1:11-12; 2 Cor. 8:7-8). Study the fine points in Paul's
dealing with the churches, and you will see a relationship between
an apostle and the saints in which freedom was maintained.

Brothers and sisters, for freedom Christ set us free! We are all
here willingly. There is no forcing or compelling. There are no
unspoken or hidden agendas. There is not an expected way to meet
or practice the church. Whether we meet this way or that way, as
long as Christ is.not nullified, we are all happy. This is to be in tile
reality of the kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace, and joy
in the Holy Spirit. We are not here with formed ideas and concepts,
or even the scriptural way to practice the church. Of course, nothing
is wrong with the scriptural way of gathering believers. But what is
more important is the way these kinds of things are handled, because
it determines whether the atmosphere of freedom is preserved or
lost. If freedom is lost, then Christ is nullified, and the Spirit cannot
operate. Spiritually speaking, everything comes to a halt, even though
outwardly the meetings and activity of the church life continue.

This is why it is so serious for the law to come into the church
in any form. It kills the ability of the Spirit to be released and the
ability of the divine love to flow. This happened among the
Galatians. When the saints were put under a yoke of slavery, they
discovered that they not only lost the love between themselves, but
they were also biting and devouring one another. They were
consuming one another because the freedom was lost (Gal. 5: 14-15).
When freedom returns, Christ returns, and love toward all the saints
returns.

This is so key!!! It is only in this kind of freedom - free from religious legalism - that Christ can best grow in us! I praise the Lord that in the fellowship He brought me to (after the LC) is one in which this kind of outward pressure is essentially nonexistent. So much so that I often take it for granted, but lately, I've been much more appreciative to the Lord for this! Praise Him! Praise Him! Praise Him!

[Sons to Glory!]

This brings up an interesting question . . . Since we say God is revealed and expressed in Christ; can we also say Christ is revealed and expressed in the church?
I believe so, but is this thinking overly influenced by LC teaching, or is it a mainstream Christianity thought?

From The Supplied Life; December 17th

"That their hearts may be comforted, they being knit together in
love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, that
they may know the mystery of God, Christ." COLOSSIANS 2:2 (ASV)

Of the mysteries mentioned in the Bible, two are basic. The first
is the mystery of God. The phrase "the mystery of God, Christ"
is an appositional statement. That is, the mystery of God is Christ.
Christ is the unveiling of God! If we want to know God, if we want
to see God, if we want to touch God, if we want to understand the
mystery of God in this universe, then we must see that this mystery
is embodied in Christ. To look at Christ is to look at God! To know
Christ is to know God!

The second basic mystery in the Bible is the mystery of Christ.
After Paul speaks concerning some of the details of this mystery in
Ephesians 3:3-5, he then unveils what the mystery is in verse 6:
"That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and
partakers of His promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Thus,
the mystery is the one Body of Christ, made up of both Jews and
Gentiles. Paul continues to refer to the mystery of Christ in
Ephesians 3:9 by saying, "And to bring to light what is the admin-
istration of the mystery ... " (NASV). Then he specifies in verse 10
that the administration, or the economy, of the mystery is being
worked out through the church. Thus, the mystery of Christ is the
church! If we want to know Christ, touch Christ, heat Christ, and see
Christ, we must realize that Christ is. revealed in the church. The
mystery of Christ is His Body, the church, the fullness of the One
who fills all in all (Eph. 1:22-23). The church is the expression of Christ.
It is Christ Himself lived out in a corporate way through His
members. The revelation that the mystery of Christ is the corporate
Christ was the unique revelation of Paul's ministry. It was given In
him in order that all believers might enter into his understanding. In
other words, there is not going to be another revelation of the church
for us to enter into. No! All believers are required to enter into Paul's
revelation and understanding.

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's January 1st in the daily devotional of T. Auston Spark's writings, "Daily Open Windows." A good question to start the year!

Called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

God has a very great purpose for His people by their eternal calling
and by their wonderful redemption. A very great purpose ... so much greater
than the majority of Christians have realized. I do not think I am saying a
false thing when I say that perhaps the larger number of Christians have
got little further than to know that they are saved, and to be very glad that
they are saved, to rejoice in being saved. Comparatively few are really in
the good of God's great, great purpose from eternity, "Called according to
His purpose" (Rom. 8:28). It is not for us now to say what that purpose is,
to explain it. It is sufficient to state the fact. We are called with a very great purpose,
not just even to get out of Egypt and the clutches of the devil, but with an object,
a tremendous object, nothing less than the infinite fullness of God's Son, Jesus Christ,
and an eternal vocation. It is a great thing to which we are called in Christ,
but how many Christians are really in it, and if they know they are in it,
are tasting of the meaning of it: that this Life is an inexhaustible Life,
that there are new vistas all the time?

I am not exaggerating. The heavens are opened and we see more and
more, and ever more, of what it is to which we are called. It is just
wonderful ... You are not meant just to be saved and get to heaven, to know
your sins are forgiven and to have a certain number of blessings which
come with salvation. But there lies before you and reaches out through
eternal ages such a purpose of God concerning us all that "Eye hath not
seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things
which God hath prepared for them that love Him" (l Cor. 2:9).

From: The Cross and the Way of Life - Chapter 8

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's today's from The Supplied Life. (it will be something of an "age test" to see how many remember what a "C promt" is! )

The prompting within - January 6th

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow
Me." JOHN 10:27

The uniqueness of our new covenant relationship with the Lord
is this: It is not a matter of our keeping outward commands,
but of discovering His voice as an inner consciousness. Thus, it is
not being outwardly told what to do; it is being prompted from
within concerning what to do. So expect the Lord's voice to come
from within you. And the way you will discover His voice is by His
inner operation that manifests itself by inward promptings. What is
important then is how we respond to these promptings.

Let me give an illustration. The most basic function of a PC
computer is a little blinking "C" at the bottom of the screen, known
as the "C prompt." Its appearance on the screen tells you that the
computer is operating and is prompting you to enter a command.
The prompt is the computer's way of speaking to you; it is the
computer's voice. Of course, when you respond to the prompt by
entering a command, you open up a wealth of information on the
screen. Everything is instantly available to you by simply respond-
ing to the "prompt."


In the same way, as believers indwelt by the life of God, we have
promptings within us. These promptings are the Lord's way of
speaking to us. The promptings are the Lord's voice. They are
telling us that God is operating in us to open up all the riches of His
life to our inward parts. However, to get the benefit of God's life
within, we need to respond properly to the prompting. In our daily
life, when we say "Amen" to the prompting within and go along with
it, we are obeying the voice of the Lord.

[UntoHim]

Sons to Glory! Rather than just cutting and pasting a large quote and placing it on the forum without comment, I would rather see you take a smaller snippet, focus on that, and give us your valuable take on it.

Also I would ask you to be posting only one portion per week, and again, only if you post it with some considered comments from yourself.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Okay . . . it's your forum/ministry. (though I do wonder why just one a week - is this a new rule for these kinds of things? FYI: In the six weeks since I started the thread, I've posted 8 devotional pieces.).

Looking through the thread, you will see I do actually make a comment on each. Granted, the comment today was minimal - sounds like you want to see some more in-depth comments from me on these then, right?

In any case, good to see you posting again!

[UntoHim]

Oh I just reviewed the thread and see that there are others besides Bill Freeman. So I guess what I'm referring to is just one reference a week from any one source. The general idea of posting and commenting on daily devotionals is actually a really good one!

As far as comments, you're right. I would like to see something more substantial than "a good question to start the year" and "remember what a C prompt is". Don't sell yourself so short my brother! Hannah, Merlin and Austin are good to hear from every once in a while...but always remember that God is "not the God of the dead, but the God of the living". Even brother Bill has been gone a number of years. So I guess my point is I would like to hear from you, Son to Glory!, more than these other saints.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

I enjoyed this from the TA Sparks devotional for today about us decreasing and Christ increasing in us! I'm having more realization lately, that I really need the cross in my life. My prayer for this year starting out is, "Lord, give me a fresh vision of the goal & the prize, so I am more willing to drop everything and die to self - in order that I may gain Christ!" A brother recently shared, as we were going over Philippians chapter 3, that "the goal and the prize" is really just one thing - CHRIST . . . He is our one hope of glory!

January 9

He must increase, but I must decrease. (John 3:30)

What is spiritual growth? What is spiritual maturity? What is it to go
on in the Lord? I fear we have got mixed ideas about this. Many think that
spiritual maturity is a more comprehensive knowledge of Christian
doctrine, a larger grasp of scriptural truth, a wider expanse of the
knowledge of the things of God; and many such features are recorded as
marks of growth, development, and spiritual maturity. Beloved, it is
nothing of the kind.

The hallmark of true spiritual development and maturity is this, that
we have grown so much less and the Lord Jesus has grown so much more.
The mature soul is one who is small in his or her own eyes, but in whose
eyes the Lord Jesus is great. That is growth. We may know a very great
deal, have a wonderful grasp of doctrine, of teaching, of truth, even of the
Scriptures, and yet be spiritually very small, very immature, and very
childish. (There is all the difference between being childish and child-like.)
Real spiritual growth is just this: I decrease, He increases. It is the Lord
Jesus becoming more. You can test spiritual growth by that.

From: The Cross and the Way of Life - Chapter 4

[Sons to Glory!]

Below quote from "The Supplied Life" for today. This devotional today made an impression on me. I'm beginning to see more and more as I go on, that Christ really has done it all! What was my own ability to have a relationship with God? Zip, nada, zilch! Christ had to come to do that for me. My efforts and strength? They are crucified that His resurrection life could come through me! "When it pleased God to reveal His Son in me." (Gal 1:16) Christ in me is my righteousness, my life, and my relationship with the Father. If Christ lives in me (and He does), then why would I not endeavor to learn how to rest in His ability and His relationship with everything around me?

All it takes is for me to stop relying on my overactive mind and say, "Lord, rather than spinning my wheels on this thing and getting all wrapped around the axel, I just give this to you. Please live through me in this matter . . . I give You permission." When I do that I always marvel at how He comes through in both the little things and the big things! Lord help us to see You in us and rest in You more and more!

"God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying 'Abba! Father!'" (Gal 4:6)

His relationship - our relationship; January 11th

"In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has
sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through
Him." 1 JOHN 4:9

To understand the Christian life properly, it is important to see
that Christ is our relationship with everything. In Galatians
2:20, when the apostle Paul said, "It is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me," he opened up a profound revelation concerning
our life - Christ is now our relationship with all things. If Christ
now lives in me, with the "I" crucified and no longer in the picture,
then I do not have a separate, independent relationship with God.
My relationship with God is Christ! In fact, one of the most
refreshing things to my spirit is to declare that I do not have a
relationship with God. I have declared it many times, and said out
loud - "My relationship with God is Jesus Christ!"

God has established one unique relationship, and that relation-
ship is with His only begotten Son (John 1:14, 18; 3:16,18). First
John 4:9 says, "In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that
God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live
through Him." To identify the Son as the only begotten means that
God has a relationship with only one Person. Then to directly relate
the only begotten Son to us by saying, "that we might live through
Him," reveals that His relationship with the Father has now become
our relationship.

Jesus is both the Son of God and the Son of Man. As the Son of
God, He is the One who has the relationship with God. As the Son
of Man, He is the One who has the relationship with man. He is the
representative man. Indeed, only one Man has a proper and
approved relationship with God and man. That one Man is Jesus
Christ. He represents the meaning of man. In Hebrews 2:6 the
question is asked, "What is man?" The answer comes in verse 9:
"We see Jesus." Jesus Christ is the one Man who has the one, unique
relationship with God. Seek no further.

[Sons to Glory!]

This one is from the Spark's devotional. This is such a good speaking from Romans 8 . . . we are free in Christ! This verse has had such an impact on my life, knowing that I don't have to get all worked-up trying to live the Christian life. There is a law, which is the result of all Christ's work and is a characteristic of the Spirit, which is joined and one with my spirit. Like gravity, I don't have to get something to drop, it just does when released from my hand. All I have to do is be conscious of the law and let it work! I do this by saying, "Lord, I give [whatever] to you. I allow You to work in this matter and want to experience You living through me in this matter!"

Also, this aligns so well with the message of the new covenant as detailed in the New Testament - abide in Me . . . The Vine; die to self; enter into His rest; and put off old man/put on new man.

January 13

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the
law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2)

We speak about natural laws. What are natural laws? Take the law of
nourishment. Provided that law is complied with, honored; and at the right
time the body is given what it needs, not more, not less; the law of
nourishment deals with that and quite spontaneously works out in
development, growth, to express itself in various ways. It .is the working of
a natural law spontaneously. You do not sit down with the law, and watch
it, and worry about it. What you do is to feed yourself, and leave all. the rest
to the law. If you violate the law you know all about It, but acting rightly in
relation to the law you will not be fretting all day long about the law of
nourishment, you will simply be taking your meals and getting on with
your work. The result is that you are able to work, able to go on; you are
nourished.

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ is like that. It is a law of Life,
and it works out in a practical way when respected and honored. It works
out spontaneously in certain directions. It has its own results quite naturally.
The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ is that law by which we become
aware. That is the simplest way of putting things. The Lord Jesus knew that
at a certain time He could not act, could not speak; He had no movement of
the Spirit in quickening, no Life to do so at that time; in His spirit there
was no movement of Life; the law was not active in the positive way. But
when the Father, Who knew what was required in speech or action, saw
that the time had come, He did not bend down and speak with an audible
voice into His ear, and say, "Now is the time! Say this! Do that!" He
simply quickened Him inwardly. The law of Life became active in that
direction, and He knew by an inward quickening what the mind of God
was. That is what Paul means when he says, "The mind of the Spirit is
Life."

From: The Risen Lord and the Things Which Cannot be Shaken - Chapter 6

[Sons to Glory!]

This is from the TA Sparks devotional for today. We just finished the book of Philippians and in chapter three verse eleven it says, "If by any means I might attain unto the out-resurrection of the dead." In this verse, the Greek word "ekk" is attached to the word resurrection. It is the only place in the NT this word is used. Paul is referring to something special . . . a special resurrection. The NT is full of exhortations to overcome, and Paul in several places talks of attaining to something more than a lukewarm Christian relationship with Christ. These days, I see that in myself as a willingness to die to myself, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in Him! To me it is undeniable that the Lord is exhorting us to walk in spirit, looking away unto Him for everything. The picture of Caleb, as brother Sparks outlines here, is clear. The Lord is looking for some who don't shrink back, but come forward in full assurance of faith to run the race with endurance (which He supplies)!

I must also add that this is a very healthy attitude for a believer to have - pressing "forward toward the mark of the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus." There are rewards to be gained. But this is not in the way we were taught in the LC. The speaking there regarding such matters was skewed and full of great fear that God was going to "get us" if we didn't tow the line. Our Father is not out to whack us, but rather He loves us to the uttermost! He wants us to gain the reward in Christ, and will lovingly be faithful to do that in and through us, if we let Him and trust Him with childlike faith. The exhortation is meant to encourage us, not scare the bejeepers out of us and make us paralyzed with fear of Him! Christ has overcome all and lives in us to do just that if we let Him. There is a goal and a prize - Christ in us the hope of glory!

January 16

To him who overcomes I will give the privilege of sitting down with Me
on My throne, as I also have overcome and have sat down with My
Father on His throne. (Revelation 3.21 WNT)

We all have resurrection Life if we are joined to Christ as .
Resurrection, but there is something more than that; there is resurrection
power, which carries us eventually (if it has its full outworking) to the
Throne, and not all will come to the Throne. It is "to him that overcomes."
Caleb, like Paul, and Paul, like Caleb, stood against the more general
course of things amongst the Lord's people. The majority were content
with going so far as to the inheritance, possessing so much, and there
staying and settling down. An unfinished course, a curtailed spiritual
advance, an accepting of something less than what God had appointed and
intended. The majority took that course, but Caleb was never content and
he stood against the majority just as he had always stood against a majority
that did not represent God's full mind ....

Spiritual leadership always involves loneliness. That is the cost of it.
The overcomers will always be, so far as the larger Christian world is
concerned, a lonely company, having to go on, with few able to follow.
Caleb could not accept the popular voice, his heart was too set upon the
Lord. He wholly followed the Lord, not the popular and general standard
of Christian life. We may say that Caleb was the very embodiment of all
that God meant the whole people to be. When you see Caleb you see what
God wished all Israel to be, but all Israel did not come to the standard of
Caleb. But the Lord gets in a Caleb the satisfaction of His heart. The Lord
realizes His full thought in a Caleb, in the same way as He does in a PauL

From: Filled Unto All the Fullness of God - Chapter 14

[Sons to Glory!]

This is again from the T. Austin Sparks daily devotional, "Daily Open Windows." As I go on in my Christian life these nearly 50 years or so, I am most thankfully brought back again and again to the simplicity that is in Christ! What is the Christian life? Christ! He's it! He replaces all our man-made systems and performances. If I stray too far from this, the Anointing within me is faithful to bring me back to the all-encompassing fact - Christ alone. Nothing added or taken away. He's a Person living in me who just asks, "Let Me - can you take a rest and just let Me?"

January 21

The time is coming, yes, and has already come, when true worshippers
will worship in spirit and in reality. Indeed, the Father looks for men
who will worship Him like that. (John 4:23 Phillips)

Jesus said to the woman, "the hour cometh, and now is." Then He
dismissed the whole system that had existed up to that time. It was the
whole system of Judaism according to the Old Testament. In one sentence,
He dismissed the whole dispensation. And He introduced an altogether
new order of things. What did He mean? Because when He said the hour
cometh, and now is, He did not mean literally just an hour and so many
minutes. He meant that it was the first hour of the new day. With this hour
an altogether new day has come. What is the new day? If you would have
asked Jesus to put it into a short sentence, He would have said, "Well, I am
here." The hour is not just a matter of time but a matter of PERSON. The
new dispensation is the dispensation of Jesus Christ. Christ is the new
dispensation. "I am here," He said. You go through that Gospel of John. He
is centering everything in Himself. "I am the Way; I am the Truth; I am the
Life; I am the Shepherd; I am the Vine; I am the Resurrection." It is a
Person. It is that which lies behind everything. Christianity is Christ. Christ
is Christianity. That is where it all begins and it never departs from HIM.
The development of the Christian life is only the development of Jesus Christ in the life.


From: "That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One" Meeting 7

[Sons to Glory!]

This was from today's Spark's daily devotional. When the Father looks at us, He sees His Son. Christ is not divided, which obviously includes His body. His work is so complete, we can just let this fact operate in us and rest in confidence of our oneness with each other.

I have to say as time goes on, more & more this fact is just so obvious to me. We can greet all regenerated believers in Christ, because He "has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying Abba! Father!" Now we are the many sons, confident of all of us being brought into glory!

January 28

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you
may know the hope to which He has called you. (Ephesians 1:18 NIV)

The Holy Spirit's illumination concerning the church is a thing so
difficult to explain to any who may not have experienced it. But to those
who have seen it, it needs no explanation. It makes such a difference on all
these matters. You will be able to preach Ephesians, Colossians, Romans;
preach all about the church as the Body of Christ; you may read it all in
books, and still there may be no real expression of it. Then one day it was
as though the heavens opened and the thing broke upon your spirit, and
you saw it; and all kinds of adjustments became necessary in life. You can
say, "I saw that the church was no denominational or national thing; I
believed in the oneness of all believers ... " yes, you can say all that! And
yet there is something more. That something can only come by revelation.
You can have the other, and it will just take you so far. But get that
something more, and it will take you a long way ahead. It brings you into
the realm of the conflict and cost, but you are out in an altogether new
realm. It is necessary to God's end.

[Sons to Glory!]

Another one from the Spark's devotional. I like that this speaks of God's heart - His love - not just a purpose! This is what I saw when the Lord lead me to the group of ex-LCers I'm with now. That is, that it is not God's purpose, like some kind of giant, impersonable machinery grinding away no matter who gets in its way. No, the heart of God is His love and His love for us. He does what He does because He loves us!!!

When I began to see and know this, that it's His love which is the primary motivator in the universe, it was then the Bible started to open to me in a fresh way like never before. In TLR I was taught that "God eternal had a purpose," and praise the Lord for that! But His purpose is not all judgmental and waiting to whack us when we step out of the fine line of His purpose. The golden thread in the Bible is God's great love for mankind and His children. He is not some kind of impersonal steamroller.

February 1 "For God loved the world so much ...." (John 3:16 NLT)

There is a great weight made to rest upon that little word "for" - "For
God so loved the world." We say that John 3: 16 is the heart of the gospel:
but it is much more than that, it is the heart of the universe. There is back
of all things in this created universe a heart; not just a mind or a will, a
design, a reason, a power, a fiat, but a heart. We are familiar with the
attempts to prove there is a design in creation, that there is a mind behind
the universe, and that a will brought it into being. That is all quite good and
right; but we are not so often asked to consider that behind it all there is a
heart - and more heart than anything else. The reason, the will, the design,
come from the heart. Everything takes its rise in the heart of God.
We have said much about the thoughts of God, the counsels of God.

The nearer we get to the very center of things, the more we shall become
affected by this fact, that right there in the center is a heart. It is a heart
that we shall come to eventually;not an explanation to satisfy our reason,
not a demonstration of power, but just a heart - but a mighty heart: and when we
use that word rightly, we simply mean love. We speak of people being
heartless. That means that they are without all that love means. Love is not
the governing thing in their thoughts, actions, and motives; they are
strangers to love. Heart then, for us, means love, and when we say that
back of all things and at the center of all things there is a heart, we mean
there is love.

From: His Great Love - Chapter 1

[Sons to Glory!]

Yesterday's "Daily Light" reading for the morning was something I thought to post. This devotional is my favorite and the one I hit first thing each morning, to prayerfully meditate over and seek the Lord through his word. It is simply scripture, arranged by a topic. Nothing speaks like the pure word! (Daily Light was first put together by Samuel Bagster's family, based upon his daily readings. Ann Graham Lotz edited the version I use.)

This day's one was all about life, and how Christ came to give life to the people in our dying world. This is the Good News of the gospel, and shows that God loves us and wants to give LIFE to us, through His Son. May He embolden us these days to speak this truth as life to all those around us! (Because how will they hear, unless we speak to them?!)

FEBRUARY 5 MORNING

I have come that they may have life, and that they
may have it more abundantly.

God commanded the man, ... "In the day that
you eat of it you shall surely die." > She took of
its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband
with her, and he ate.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God
is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. > If by
the one man's offense death reigned through the
one, much more those who receive abundance
of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign
in life through the One, Jesus Christ. > Since by
man came death, by Man also came the resur-
rection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even
so in Christ all shall be made alive. >Our Savior
Jesus Christ ... has abolished death and brought
life and immortality to light through the gospel.

God has given us eternal life, and this life is
in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who
does not have the Son of God does not have life.
> For God did not send His Son into the world to
condemn the world, but that the world through
Him might be saved.

JOHN 10:10; Gen. 2:16-17; Gen. 3:6; Rom. 6:23; Rom. 5:17;
1 Cor. 15:21-22; 2 Tim. 1:10; 1 John 5:11-12; John 3:17

[Sons to Glory!]

From the Sparks devotional. The inner Anointing is a fact and is real in us! As we go on, we (hopefully) become more and more attuned to His life and His speaking within us.

But just as the Jews contrived an intricate and detailed religion out of their zeal for God, so can we as Christians. Something that came out of fellowship last night with a few bros, was that we can take so-called good Christian teachings and our own perceptions, and turn them into the most elaborate, outward systematized philosophy to live by. But we need to be clear, this is not the New Covenant way, which is really just Christ Himself living in and through us. Outward Christian philosophy and a few basic guidelines may have some eternal profit, but most importantly we need to know Him and His inner speaking. "No longer will each one teach his neighbor, or each one teach his brother saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me from the greatest of them to the least." "My sheep hear My voice and I know them." (Jer 31:34; John 10:27)

February 10

"The anointing you received from Christ lives in you."
(1 John 2:27 GW)

When will the Lord's people, who have the Scriptures and who know
the Scriptures so well in the letter, when will they come to realize and to
recognize that if truly they have been crucified with Christ, if they have
died in His death and have been raised together with Him and have
received the Spirit, they have Light in their dwelling? "The anointing
which ye received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that anyone
teach you, but... His anointing teacheth you concerning all things" (1 John
2:27). When will believers, when will Christians, come to realize that?
Why must Christians who have the knowledge of the Scriptures in the
letter, run about here and there to seek advice from others on matters which
vitally affect their own spiritual knowledge? I do not mean that it is wrong
to get counsel, wrong to know what other children of God of experience
think or feel about matters. But if we are going to build our position upon
their conclusions, we are in great danger. The final authority and arbiter in
all matters is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the anointing. We may get help
from one another, but I do hope that you are not going to build your
position upon what· I say now because I say it. Do not do that. I do not
want you to do it. I do not ask you to do it. What I say is: listen, take note;
and then go to your final authority Who is in you if you are a child of God,
and ask Him to corroborate the truth or to show otherwise. That is your
right, your birthright, the birthright of every child of God: to be in the light
of the indwelling Spirit of Light, the Spirit of God.

From: The Anointing: Light Within Our Dwellings

[Awoken]

Awesome, I appreciate your last entry a lot. T. Austin-Sparks actually sought to prevent a lot of his materials from being dispersed at the end of his life specifically because he knew we have a fallen tendency to latch onto the teachings of man and follow them instead of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:14: that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting).

(Of course ironically we are now reading his stuff anyway, lol...)

My wife and I have been reading "Rivers of Living Water" together, it's very good. Also perusing some materials by other Christian authors, but I agree... ultimately we need to learn to obey the inner anointing and listen to the Spirit.

[Awoken]

Oh, and by the way, I have a recommendation for another devotional for you: The God of Comfort published by Zondervan. It's $8.99 from their website but you can pick it up in a lot of other places for $4 or so.

https://www.zondervan.com/9780310453...od-of-comfort/

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Awoken

Oh, and by the way, I have a recommendation for another devotional for you: The God of Comfort published by Zondervan. It's $8.99 from their website but you can pick it up in a lot of other places for $4 or so.

https://www.zondervan.com/9780310453...od-of-comfort/

Thanks - Please feel free to share something on here from this book!

[Awoken]

Okay, I'm game. Here is yesterday's devotional (wife and I enjoyed it quite a lot) -

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths."

Proverbs 3:5-6

Proverbs is known as the book of wisdom. Naturally we all want to make wise decisions, but there are times in life when it's difficult to know how to proceed. When we encounter a season when we can't see a clear path forward, we often attempt to figure things out on our own. Usually this leads to a dead-end road of frustration. King Solomon, the author of much of the book of Proverbs, offers a solution. He instructs us not to try to figure things out on our own but to trust God with a whole heart and obey Him in every area of our lives. God's ways are often beyond our understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9). However, He invites us into a relationship where we know Him so intimately that even when we don't understand what the next step is, we trust that He will lead us on the right path.

For me this is a good reminder that in all things I need to go to God in prayer and ask for His blessing, for His will to be done, to be my guide and give wisdom/strength to make it through... I often find myself just doing things without actually consulting God. I don't think the LC practice of trying to be "in spirit" is very helpful in this matter, or better to say, I think it may actually be actively harmful, as there is something real that happens when we humble ourselves in front of God and ask for His blessing on something, prayerfully (with some degree of understanding that He gives according to what is actually best for us, not necessarily what we think is best).

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks, Awoken, for sharing that! Great that you and your wife enjoy time pursuing Him together!

This is from Hannah W. Smith's devotional (God is Enough). I love her straightforward way of saying this: If not for being made "partakers of the divine nature," then we never have any true hope of being changed into His likeness!

Once again this is a strong reminder that the flesh profits exactly nothing. We didn't start this journey in the flesh, and we won't finish it there either. But, in fact, it is He who is the beginner and finisher of this grandest adventure of life. Faith is realizing we have nothing in ourselves, and simply let His life in us operate.

FEBRUARY 16 - PARTAKING AND CONFORMING

In order to become conformed to the image of Christ, we must
of necessity be made "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Our tastes, our wishes, our purposes, will become like Christ's tastes,
wishes, and purposes; we will see things as He sees them. This is
inevitable; for where the divine nature is, its fruit cannot fail to be
I manifest; and, where it is not manifest, we are forced to conclude that
that individual, no matter how loud his profession, has not yet been
made a partaker of the divine nature.

I can hear someone asking, "But do you really mean to say that,
in order to be made partakers of the divine nature, we must cease
from our own efforts entirely and must simply by faith put on Christ,
letting Him live in us and work in us to will and to do of His good
pleasure? And do you believe He will then actually do it?"

Yes, I mean just that. I mean that if we abandon ourselves
entirely to Him, He comes to abide in us and is himself our life. We
must commit our whole lives to Him-our thoughts, our words, our
daily walk, our downsittings, our uprisings. By faith we must abandon
ourselves and, as it were, move over into Christ and abide in Him. By
faith we must put off the old man, and by faith we must put on the
new man (d. Col. 3:9-10). By faith we must reckon ourselves dead
unto sin and alive unto God -as truly dead as alive (cf. Rom. 6: 11 ).
By faith we must realize that our daily life is Christ living in us; and,
ceasing from our own works, we must suffer Him to work in us to will
and to do of His good pleasure (d. Phil. 2:13).

[Sons to Glory!]

This is from today's, "The supplied Life." I was impressed, and reminded once again that our one and only need is to look to Jesus! Not this (feelings), that (knowledge) or the other thing --> just Him!

But we see Jesus February 19th

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that
He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. But
we see Jesus." HEBREWS 2:8-9

There are two things to take note of in these verses: first, the fact
that "we do not yet see all things put under him"; and second,
"but we see Jesus. " These two things are going on simultaneously.
This means that we may see many things in us that are not yet
subjected to Him - things that are not under His feet, under His
ruling. But even in such an unfinished state, we still see Jesus! Our
heart can be positioned and focused on Christ, despite the existence
of the unsubjected things. Do not be distracted by what you see in
yourself. Keep your eyes upon Jesus and trust Him to subdue every
unruly thing.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:16, "Nevertheless when the heart
shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away" (KJV). Then he
continues in verse 18, "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding and
reflecting as in a mirror the glory of the Lord ... " These verses show
us that to behold the Lord with an unveiled face, we need a turned
heart, a heart positioned toward the Lord. Our heart has been turned
in another direction, away from the Lord, and we need to turn it
toward the Lord. Our heart may be distracted by many things, but
our one and only need is to turn it toward the Lord.

Our tendency is to have our heart turned toward our problems,
our defeated condition, or what we see in ourselves that is still not
subdued by the Lord. But the most important thing in spending time
with the Lord is to get our eyes off ourselves and onto Him.
Regardless of how we feel or what we see in ourselves, we still need
to keep our heart focused on the Lord.

[Sons to Glory!]

Here is a wonderful section of a autobiographical book by Hannah W. Smith titled, "The Unselfishness of God" from the 18th chapter called, "The Way of Escape." Someone made several copies of this chapter and it's circulating around our fellowship right now. It is a simple, yet powerful and practical example of how the Lord saves us right where we are and no matter how we feel! We had some awesome fellowship around it in this morning's brothers breakfast. I've read and reread this watering little piece several times . . .

And this has been my experience too. That is, in the middle of a "hot" situation when the feelings and/or temptations are erupting, I've said "Lord help me! I can't do it, but I give it to you." And no matter how weak and unfeeling of any faith whatsoever that I am at that point, He is faithful to save - He changes my heart and/or the situation to create a way of escape. And, in these instances, the enemy always tells me something like, "That weak speaking of yours is not of faith and He won't honor that." But that's Poppycock! Just the very breathing of the name of Jesus is something out of faith, and I know the Lord honors even those weak and feeble cries to Him! Praise Him! Praise Him! Praise Him!

I remember that I was so boiling over with provocation that I could
not walk quietly, but fairly ran up to my bedroom, slamming the
doors after me. When safe in the seclusion of my room, I kneeled
down and said, "Lord, I am provoked, I want to be provoked, and
I think I have cause for being provoked; but I know I ought not to
be, and I want the victory. I hand this whole matter over to Thee. I
cannot fight this battle. Thou must fight it for me. Jesus saves me
now." I said these words out of a heart that seemed brimful of rebellion.
According to all appearances I was declaring a lie when I said the Lord
saved me, for I was not saved, and it did not look likely I could be.

But by faith I laid hold of it, and declared even. in the midst of
turmoil that the Lord could and did save me now. The result was
that immediately a summer morning of peace and happiness spread
over me. All my resentment and provocation vanished, and I felt as
happy as a bird in the sunshine at the thought of the very thing
which before had made me so angry. My faith had laid hold of a
divine fact. I had proved that God was able to deliver, and that He
did deliver the soul that trusted Him. I realized that it was a won-
derful truth that I had no need to fight my own battles, for the Lord
fought for me and I could hold my peace.

Many hundreds of similar battles have been fought and won for
me since by the Captain of my Salvation, and the secret I learned
then, of handing over the battle to the Lord, and .leaving it in His
hands, has never failed to work when I have acted on it. It has been
to me over and over a practical illustration of Christ's words, "Be
of good cheer, for I have overcome the world," He has overcome it,
not we; and He will always overcome it when we will put the mat-
ter into His hands, and will stand aside and let Him fight. Never
once, when I have done this, have I been disappointed; for it is
blessedly true, although so few seem to know it, that He is able to
save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He
ever liveth to make intercession for them. He was able then, when
the Epistle to the Hebrews was written, and He is able now; for He
Is not dead but “ever liveth” to make intercession for us.

I had discovered that faith is the conquering law of the universe.

[Awoken]

The Spirit God gave us
does not make us timid,
but gives us power, love
and self-discipline.

God has not left us on our own to confront life's struggles. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit resides in every follower of Jesus Christ (John 14:17). The Holy Spirit fills many roles in the life of the believer, but sometimes we aren't mindful of His Presence. When the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy, his spiritual son and protege, Paul knew his own time on earth would soon come to an end (2 Timothy 4:6). The book of 2 Timothy is, in a sense, Paul's last will and testament. Paul knew Timothy struggled with fear, and Paul was writing to encourage him and to provide instruction on how to live as a faithful servant of Christ. Paul reminded Timothy that the Holy Spirit aids the believer in battling fear. As we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit, our fears subside, and we experience power, love, and increased degrees of self-discipline.

Lord, as I rely on the presence of the Holy Spirit within me, increase my power, love, and self-discipline so I can fulfill my calling and live a life that brings You glory.

Here is the one my wife and I read this morning. I originally picked up this devotional because I thought it would help her ("The God of Comfort"), however, personally I felt this one really spoke to where I'm at in my Christian walk. Learning not to fear how other people will react to me if I obey the Spirit, and (I hope) one day being emboldened enough to even suffer for Christ, if He calls me to that.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Awoken

Here is the one my wife and I read this morning. I originally picked up this devotional because I thought it would help her ("The God of Comfort"), however, personally I felt this one really spoke to where I'm at in my Christian walk. Learning not to fear how other people will react to me if I obey the Spirit, and (I hope) one day being emboldened enough to even suffer for Christ, if He calls me to that.

Thanks for sharing! One of my favorite verses for getting out of bed is 2 Tim 1:7. I many times experience a general fear of things to come in my day, but then I lay hold of this verse and declare it: "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." Then I almost always find myself springing out of bed with a new motivation to seek Him and tackle the day's activities together!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for sharing! One of my favorite verses for getting out of bed is 2 Tim 1:7. I many times experience a general fear of things to come in my day, but then I lay hold of this verse and declare it: "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." Then I almost always find myself springing out of bed with a new motivation to seek Him and tackle the day's activities together!

Maybe saying "springing out of bed" was a little much . . . it does happen sometimes, but more often I just find myself getting going with more energy/motivation immediately after declaring that verse . . . perhaps that's a little more "normal" experience to convey.

[Sons to Glory!]

From The Supplied Life. I just thought this was such a simple explanation of the New covenant life of Christ in us! This illustrates well the answer to the question of "What would Jesus do?" That is, He was always looking to the Father in everything. And now, that is what Christ's life in us wants to do - look to our Father in all our affairs and give it all to Him. Once we are regenerated with the life of God in us, then our part is merely to "let" His life in us operate and have His way. Through this everything emanates - our flesh is crucified and self dies; sanctification/transformation and renewing of the mind; and glory! What a Christ have we!

The same life in us March 5th

"But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard
Him and have been taught in Him, as the truth is in Jesus."
EPHESIANS 4:20-21

By observing the Lord's life on the earth, we can become more
familiar with the Lord's life within us. The one unique life that
is described in the four Gospels is the very same life that is now living
in us. By studying the Lord's life in the Gospels, we are not merely
considering something objective to us, but something that is also
subjective in our spirit. His life lived out in the Gospels is what is
now being reproduced in us by His indwelling.

As Christians we can have the assurance that the Christ who was
once outside of us is the same Christ who is now inside of us.
Furthermore, the way Christ lived on the earth is precisely the same
way He is living in us. We must see that the kind of life He lived
in the flesh is not something different from the life He now lives
in us. This is a basic biblical principle - learning how to apply the
Lord's life in the flesh to our own experience of Him in the spirit.

To "learn Christ" is to learn Him by His example in the four
Gospels. "The truth ... in Jesus" means that Jesus lived a life of truth,
r reality, by always doing things in the Father, with the Father, and
for the Father. This was the truth in Jesus demonstrated and recorded
On the Gospels. Now as believers having Christ as our life and being
taught in the realm of our union with Him, we learn that the
relationship He had with the Father in the flesh is the same kind of
experience being repeated in us in the spirit. We "have heard Him
and have been taught in Him." Thus, to adequately learn the
indwelling Christ in our experience, we need two things: to study the
Lord's example in the Gospels, and to watch how that same life is
being worked out in us in the details of our daily life.

[Sons to Glory!]

From Daily Light. I love these verses about "HE IS ABLE!" Some of these are just so "over the top" wonderful, like the one in Jude that says "He is able to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY!" We have a God who loves us, has a wonderful plan for us, and is fully capable of achieving that plan through His Spirit who indwells us!

I know whom I have believed and am
persuaded that He is able.

Able to do exceedingly abundantly above all
that we ask or think.

Able to make all grace abound toward you, that
you, always having all sufficiency in all things,
may have an abundance for every good work.

Able to aid those who are tempted.

Able to save to the uttermost those who come
to God through Him, since He always lives to
make intercession for them.

Able to keep you from stumbling, and to pre-
sent you faultless before the presence of His glory
with exceeding joy.

Able to keep what I have committed to Him
until that Day.

Who will transform our lowly body that it may
be conformed to, His glorious body, according to
the working by which He is able even to subdue
all things to Himself.

"Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They
said to Him; "Yes, Lord." "According to your faith
let it be to you."

2 TIM. 1:12; Eph. 3:20; 2 Cor. 9:8; Heb. 2:18; Heb. 7:25;
Jude 24; 2 Tim. 1: 12; Phil. 3:21; Matt. 9:28-29 .

[Sons to Glory!]

This is from the "Daily Light" devotional. He spoke and the galaxies appeared! I really enjoyed this and it was a little reminder of Who it is we are getting to know. These days many are enamored with comic book superheros (a childish thing carried over from our youth). But we are interacting with One who speaks and galaxies are created and life proceeds from His very breath!

And what is important to the Mighty One? Man! His love is all wrapped-up in us, so much so that God was manifested in human flesh! Oh what a thought! His love and focus was toward man, to bring us back into relationship with Him. He is our exceeding great reward! (Gen 15:1) "He stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him." (Zech 12:1)

Indeed, "what is man that thou art mindful of him?"

EVENING MARCH 15

The LORD made the heavens and' the earth,
the sea, and all that is in them.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the
firmament shows His handiwork. By the word
of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the
host of them by the breath of His mouth. For He
spoke, and it was done; He commanded; and it
stood fast. Behold the nations are as a drop
in a bucket, and are counted as the small dust
on the scales; look, He lifts up the isles as a very
little thing.

By faith we understand that the worlds were
framed by the word of God, so that the things
which are seen were not made of things which
are visible.

When I consider Your heavens, the work of
Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You
have ordained, what is man that You are mind-
ful of him, and the son of man that You visit him?

Exo 20:11; Ps. 19:1; Ps. 33:6 & 9; Isa 40:15; Heb 11:3; Ps 8:3-4

[Sons to Glory!]

This is from the T. Austin Sparks devotional, "Daily Open Windows." Sparks pulls no punches in this one and I think it may have even been written with WL and the Local Churches in mind! However, it also cuts the way of organized Christianity, with all its systems and forms/practices.

Just this morning in our weekly brothers' breakfast, several were commenting about how man puts all kinds of props and practices in place, when there isn't the fresh experience and active knowing of the living Christ. Lord save us!

March 15
God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him.
(Colossians 1:19 NJV)

The next thing I am going to say may be difficult to accept, just as it
is difficult to say, and yet faithfulness demands that things like this should
be said. There is going to be a tremendous surprise one day over this matter.
There is a tremendous amount of energy, and activity, and machinery, and
zeal and devotion in the work of the Lord, in the service of the Lord, which
seems to be producing something quite big, and carrying on something
quite extensive. It is not for us to judge, but it is for us to lay down laws
and recognize those laws, or, rather, recognize laws that are laid down by
God. When eventually all work, all service, all activity, is weighed in the
balances, which will determine what abides forever or passes away forever,
all that which was merely human energy for God will go; all that which
was merely man's enterprise for the Lord will go; all that which was in any
way out from man himself, even though in devotion to God, will go. Only
that which was the energy of Christ, the wisdom of Christ, the. power of
Christ, will remain. God is not using your energies and my energies. He is
calling upon us to use the energies of Christ. God cannot set His seal upon
anything that is of man.

God's seal only rests upon that which is of His Son, and we must not
say that because a thing is big, extensive, and seems to be a great work for
God, that it necessarily is such. What we have got to be quite sure about is
that that thing is not being carried on by the momentum of man, or the
momentum of organization, the momentum of machinery, the momentum
of human zeal and energy for God, nor by the momentum of a program,
but that it is being energized by the Holy Ghost, that it is Christ Himself
who is the Life and the power of that thing. In so far as human
personalities, energies and all that kind of thing are the mainspring, we
may be sure that at the end there is going to be a good deal that goes. That
can be seen as you look back over the history of things which claimed to
represent God. The object of saying this is not for one moment to cast a
cloud of suspicion or doubt over anything, but it is to emphasize this truth,
this basic truth. It is along the line of jealousy for Christ. Nothing will
remain in this universe eventually but what is Christ, and we must
recognize that everything for God's ultimate purpose is bound up with and
in Christ, and it IS Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

From the Supplied Life devotional. This passage talks specifically about the supplied life, and that the Christian life is a supplied life - not coming from ourselves. What a good reminder!

And I'm encouraged to read that I'm not the only one who doesn't have the goods (see bolded below) in them! I don't have to come up with it - He supplies this to me! As Philippians 2:13 tells us, He supplies the willing and the working through His operation in us! Hallelujah!

Fresh supplies March 25th
"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things
are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account
... Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may
obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." HEBREWS 4: 13,16

When you see your shortness and realize you do not have a
fervent love for the Lord - your heart is not inclined toward
Him and His Word that much - God's desire at that point is to
supply Himself to you. He wants to be your love for Him and that
necessary desire for His Word. So never be troubled, never be
fearful. Every new juncture in our Christian life, no matter what it
is, is simply another occasion for fresh supplies from the throne of
grace. For example, you may be reacting toward someone. What
you need supplied to you is Christ to be lived out toward them. Or
you may be anxious about your financial situation. So, what you
need supplied to you is a life of trusting the Lord, taking one day at
a time, and seeking first the kingdom of God. That very life is
equally supplied. Or you may be exposed to a sinful and worldly
environment, and you need the power to resist temptation. The life
that overcomes sin and the world will also be supplied to you.

We must continually realize that we are vessels receiving the
bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Our whole understand-
ing of the Christian life must be renewed in this way. The Christian
life is a supplied life. This spending time with the Lord is prime time
in our daily life to get connected with the supply.

[JJ]

I don’t read from devotionals or study guides very often, STG. After getting burned and burned out by LSM books I tend to stick to Bible reading until I get “stuck” on something. Then I will do some web searching to see what various expositors say. And, that usually helps quite a bit.

I usually alternate readings between:
Old Testament book consecutive reading
New Testament book consecutive reading
Whatever verses the church I attend reviewed the previous Sunday

Does anyone else have an aversion to reading devotionals or study guides as a reaction to LSM burnout? If yes, did you get over it?

This week the church I attend has been reading in Luke 22 about the Lord’s week preparing for His Passover fulfillment. Among many scriptures fulfilled that week was Isaiah Chapter 50

Below are some links. Here is Jesus suffering for us

Isaiah 50 Audio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UQDY-VFBho

Fulfilled
Matthew 26 https://biblehub.com/matthew/26-67.htm
Matthew 27 https://biblehub.com/matthew/27-30.htm and https://biblehub.com/matthew/27-39.htm
Mark 14 https://biblehub.com/mark/14-65.htm and 15 https://biblehub.com/mark/15-29.htm
Luke 22 https://biblehub.com/luke/22-63.htm and https://biblehub.com/mark/15-29.htm

Hebrews 12 https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-2.htm

I hope this is compelling reading before Easter Sunday.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

I don’t read from devotionals or study guides very often, STG. After getting burned and burned out by LSM books I tend to stick to Bible reading until I get “stuck” on something. Then I will do some web searching to see what various expositors say. And, that usually helps quite a bit.

I usually alternate readings between:
Old Testament book consecutive reading
New Testament book consecutive reading
Whatever verses the church I attend reviewed the previous Sunday

Does anyone else have an aversion to reading devotionals or study guides as a reaction to LSM burnout? If yes, did you get over it?

JJ - I hear you. I don't always agree with everything I read in various devotionals, but the four I concentrate on are pretty good. Some devotionals are certainly much better than others and it takes some discernment.* And you can never go wrong with the pure word!

One devotional you might consider is "Daily LIght." It is simply a collection of scripture for the day, arranged according to a topic. (Actually, it has a morning and an evening reading.) Again, it is just verses.

And thanks for sharing the verses on the Passover fulfillments!

*And it may have been you who pointed out that the "Jesus Calling" devotional has some bigger issues. I agree. While it is not one I read, I know a few who do. The more at looked into it, the more I was bothered. And on the radio, a sister reads from it regularly as her whole show - I do have an issue with someone speaking as God who is not. Again, it just bothered me more and more as I listened - it seemed like it was trying to replace the Anointing.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

JJ - I hear you. I don't always agree with everything I read in various devotionals, but the four I concentrate on are pretty good. Some devotionals are certainly much better than others and it takes some discernment.* And you can never go wrong with the pure word!

One devotional you might consider is "Daily LIght." It is simply a collection of scripture for the day, arranged according to a topic. (Actually, it has a morning and an evening reading.) Again, it is just verses.

And thanks for sharing the verses on the Passover fulfillments!

*And it may have been you who pointed out that the "Jesus Calling" devotional has some bigger issues. I agree. While it is not one I read, I know a few who do. The more at looked into it, the more I was bothered. And on the radio, a sister reads from it regularly as her whole show - I do have an issue with someone speaking as God who is not. Again, it just bothered me more and more as I listened - it seemed like it was trying to replace the Anointing.

You’re welcome, STG. Thanks for the tip on “Daily Light”.

No, I didn’t say anything about Jesus Calling. But, funny you should mention it. One of my brothers was saved through reading that devotional which was a gift from his wife’s father. My brother bought me one as a gift, and we read some of the readings together. Because of my aversion to devotionals I haven’t read a lot of it.

I realized after I posted last night that what I wrote didn’t point out how dependent I am on cross references and “Treasury of Scripture” citations in the right margin of Bible Hub during my time with the Lord. I also look at various translations during Bible reading. Most of the time words of scripture, cross references, and citations along with the Holy Spirit’s guidance plus what I’ve learned from others provide ready interpretation or understanding to what I’m reading without much effort. Bible Hub is amazing. And, what I’ve learned from preachers and some books in “poor, poor, Christianity” as well as posters here continue to be helpful.

I’m interested to hear from others here about their time with Jesus each day. How much is pray reading still there in your time? For example. What aids, if any do you use? Sometimes I just need to listen to recorded Bible reading instead of reading, or together with looking at the words. Bible Gateway is handy for that. Anyone else a listener?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

You’re welcome, STG. Thanks for the tip on “Daily Light”.

No, I didn’t say anything about Jesus Calling. But, funny you should mention it. One of my brothers was saved through reading that devotional which was a gift from his wife’s father. My brother bought me one as a gift, and we read some of the readings together. Because of my aversion to devotionals I haven’t read a lot of it.

I realized after I posted last night that what I wrote didn’t point out how dependent I am on cross references and “Treasury of Scripture” citations in the right margin of Bible Hub during my time with the Lord. I also look at various translations during Bible reading. Most of the time words of scripture, cross references, and citations along with the Holy Spirit’s guidance plus what I’ve learned from others provide ready interpretation or understanding to what I’m reading without much effort. Bible Hub is amazing. And, what I’ve learned from preachers and some books in “poor, poor, Christianity” as well as posters here continue to be helpful.

I’m interested to hear from others here about their time with Jesus each day. How much is pray reading still there in your time? For example. What aids, if any do you use? Sometimes I just need to listen to recorded Bible reading instead of reading, or together with looking at the words. Bible Gateway is handy for that. Anyone else a listener?

Bible Hub is my fav too for online resources! I like that I can go right into a Strong's reference from there, and that they post reference scriptures on the side. Bible Gateway has some good stuff too.

As far as pray-reading is concerned - I use it all! That is when I'm seeking the Lord 1st thing in the morning, in reading scripture I will talk to Him about it, asking Him things, praise & thanks Him for things, etc. And I may go over certain phrases several times, again, taking it to Him. I don't think of it so much as "pray-reading" any more, as there's not much of a form to it, and it's certainly not in the way that oftentimes was practiced in the Recovery (kind of a rote chanting thing).

BTW - Amazon carries a really nice little "Daily Light" with a leather binder:Daily Light in leather I don't know why they say it was written by Ann Graham Lotz as she was really just the one who did the editing. It was originally put together by an English brother named Bagster (in the late 1700s I believe). Ann did modernize it with recent translations, etc.

[Sons to Glory!]

Below is from "The Supplied Life." We had a really good time in the brothers' breakfast today, singing and sharing along the lines of, "Unto thee oh Lord, do I lift up my soul!" We can take everything to Him, because He paid ALL the penalty, so He could come live in us! There is nothing we can't, or shouldn't take to Him - even our unbelief. Just as I am, without one plea - this is why He died . . . so we have complete, open and guiltless access to God 24/7. Anything else is an accusation, that can be easily answered by the blood of Christ. And we know the penalty for sin is fully paid, because He lives in us (via the resurrection)!

So now He lives in me and is my relationship with the Father, with sin, with the world, and even with myself! Oh hallelujah we serve a risen Savior who's in the world today living in His believers!

The exclusive relationship April 1st

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through Me." JOHN 14:6

God established a relationship with His Son, and then He took
that relationship and put it into our heart. Now, Christ is my
relationship with the Father. This is the meaning of John 14:6 where
Jesus revealed that no one can come to the Father except through
Him. In other words, He is the One who exclusively has a relation-
ship with the Father. Christ being my relationship with the Father
is also the meaning of Galatians 4:6, where the Spirit of His Son is
sent forth into our hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!"

Based upon these facts, we need to reevaluate the source of our
relationship with God. Is Christ the source of our relationship with
God? Or are we the source? Instead of considering how our
relationship with God is and how well we are doing, we need to
consider how His relationship with God is, and how well He is doing.
To look at our feelings, our condition, our day, our history, or our
prospects for the future is to be in the wrong realm. As long as we
remain in the realm of our self and our relationship with God, we
will invariably fall into the pit of discouragement and condemnation.
Our relationship with God is not in the realm of ourselves. Our
relationship with God is Jesus Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

Another from "The Supplied Life." This is a remarkable verse - "your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore"! It is really something to see that the Lord really does cause all things to work together for good for us, isn't it!? This is not my natural inclination to think this way. When something apparently "bad" is happening to me, I tend to either think that God is upset with me or that it is all the enemies doing.

But if we believe He loves us without end, and is fully willing and capable to do the things He has promised ("able to present you before the glory of His throne faultless with exceeding joy" Jude 1:24), then all these things are actually working for us! These afflicting teachers are actually our "employees" as it says in 2 Cor 4:17, "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." These things are working for us! Is this not amazingly good news that "Faithful is He Who began a good work in you will finish it"!?!? (Phil 1:6)

Oh to see this more - that because of His most capable providence all these things are actually used by Him to develop us into His loving purpose for us!

Your teachers April 11th

"And though the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the
water of affliction, yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner
anymore, but your eyes shall see your teachers. Your ears shall hear
a word behind you, saying, This is the way, walk in it, whenever you turn
to the right hand or whenever you turn to the left." ISAIAH 30:20-21

Often in our experience the Lord's voice in us encounters a deaf
or indifferent ear. When this occurs, the Lord has a way to turn
up the volume of His speaking. According to the Scriptures, His way
is to use our environment and circumstances to intensify His inner
speaking. This is the spiritual principle of discipline and chastise-
ment in the lives of all God's children (cf. Heb. 12:5-9), The effect
that God's discipline has on our ability to hear the Lord's voice is
clearly seen in the verses above.

When the Lord gives us the bread of adversity and the water of
affliction, He does it to get our attention, that we may hear His voice.
Adversity and affliction are described as teachers that are not hidden
in a corner anymore. Indeed, our eyes will see our teachers. These
teachers are different from brothers and sisters giving us outward
instructions. They are like personal tutors that are able to get our
attention so that we will listen to the Lord, They are sent by God
when all else seems to fail. Under God's sovereignty, the environ-
ments of adversity and affliction are used by Him to attain one end
- our hearing of the Lord's voice.

[Sons to Glory!]

This is from Hannah Smith's devotional, "God is Enough." This is most encouraging! That is, we are "drawn to obey" inwardly by Him, rather than having to conform to an outward law. And He operates ALL things to work for our good, that we may hear Him better. He is not an indifferent God, but instead cares about all the details and arranges things for our development to bring us into His fellowship, image and glory! This is true love - thank you Lord you love us this much!

APRIL 13 GUIDING AND OBEYING

We must not be deterred from embracing the blessed privilege
of divine guidance by a dread of the dangers that environ it. That God
cares enough about us to desire to regulate the details of our lives, is
the strongest proof of love He could give. That He should condes-
cend to let us know how to live and walk to please Him, seems
almost too good to be true. We never care about the little details of
people's lives unless we love them. It is a matter of indifference to us
what the majority of people we meet do, or how they spend their
lime. But as soon as we begin to love someone, we begin at once to
care. God's law, therefore, is only another name for God's love. The
more minutely that law descends into the details of our lives, the
more sure we are of the depth and reality of God's love. We can never
know the full joy and privileges of the life hid with Christ in God until
we have learned the lesson of a daily and hourly guidance.

God's promise is that He will work in us to will as well as to do of
His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). This means, of course, that He will
take possession of our will and work it for us. His suggestions will
come to us not so much as commands from the outside as desires
springing up within. They will originate in our will, and we will feel as
though we desired to do so and so, not as though we must. This
makes our service one of perfect liberty, let the accompanying
circumstances be as difficult as they may. God writes His laws on our
hearts and on our minds (d. Heb. 10:16) so that our affection and
our understanding embrace them, and we are drawn to obey, instead
of being driven to it. (SEC, 99- 1 00)

[Sons to Glory!]

This is another from sister Hannah's devotional, which I think speaks for itself. It is a clear reminder to me that Christ has paid it all to give us full access to God 24/7! And therefore, wallowing in discouragement is useless and there is zero eternal profit in it - get up and give it to Jesus!

April 21st: Failing but not Faltering

In this walk of life and faith, there may be momentary failures
that, though very sad and greatly to be deplored, need not, if rightly
met, disturb the attitude of the soul as to entire consecration and
perfect trust, nor interrupt, for more than the passing moment, its
happy communion with the Lord. Our sin is no reason for ceasing to
trust, but only an unanswerable argument why we must trust more
fully than ever. From whatever cause we have been betrayed into
failure, it is certain there is no remedy to be found in discouragement.
Just as a child who is learning to walk may lie down in despair when he
has fallen, so a believer who is learning to walk by faith might give up
in despair when he has fallen into sin. The only thing to do in both cases
is to get right back up and try again!

"Up, sanctify the people," is always God's command. "Lie down and be
discouraged," is always our temptation. Our feeling is that it is presumptuous,
and even almost impertinent, to go to the Lord after we have sinned
against Him. It seems as if we ought to suffer the consequences of sin first for a
little while and endure the accusings of our conscience. We can hardly believe that
the Lord can at once receive us back into loving fellowship.

BTW - I'm reminded of a brother I know who quiped recently that he was going to have "GET UP!" tattooed on his inner forearm, so that when he fell down, that's what he would see.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Bible Hub is my fav too for online resources! I like that I can go right into a Strong's reference from there, and that they post reference scriptures on the side. Bible Gateway has some good stuff too.

As far as pray-reading is concerned - I use it all! That is when I'm seeking the Lord 1st thing in the morning, in reading scripture I will talk to Him about it, asking Him things, praise & thanks Him for things, etc. And I may go over certain phrases several times, again, taking it to Him. I don't think of it so much as "pray-reading" any more, as there's not much of a form to it, and it's certainly not in the way that oftentimes was practiced in the Recovery (kind of a rote chanting thing).

BTW - Amazon carries a really nice little "Daily Light" with a leather binder:Daily Light in leather I don't know why they say it was written by Ann Graham Lotz as she was really just the one who did the editing. It was originally put together by an English brother named Bagster (in the late 1700s I believe). Ann did modernize it with recent translations, etc.

A few mornings ago I had finished reading Exodus 28 on priestly garments. I ventured into Bible Hub’s commentaries on that chapter and read Mc Claren’s. It was so good, I wanted to share a link to it here: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/28-12.htm

I hope you wind up appreciating our Lord Jesus as our high priest more, as I did after reading it.

Witness Lee liked to bash commentarys. Now I see how much I was robbed by listening to him. Lee took a lot of what he preached on from them it turns out.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

A few mornings ago I had finished reading Exodus 28 on priestly garments. I ventured into Bible Hub’s commentaries on that chapter and read Mc Claren’s. It was so good, I wanted to share a link to it here: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/28-12.htm

I hope you wind up appreciating our Lord Jesus as our high priest more, as I did after reading it.

Witness Lee liked to bash commentarys. Now I see how much I was robbed by listening to him. Lee took a lot of what he preached on from them it turns out.

Wow - that first commentary was really a good in-depth exposition of Christ's care and work with us in mind, as pictured by Aaron! Thanks for sharing.

Commentaries can be quite good, but I always keep in mind they are just written by brothers (or sisters) like you and me (although certainly highly educated in the subject matter). We all see through a glass darkly and are prone to fleshly limitations. But there are some really good ones out there.

And I don't always connect or agree with the writers of the daily devotionals I read. But there was one yesterday, that talked about the life being in the blood, that I saw something in. Jesus said, "Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you." Just as it stumbled many of those He spoke this to, I was always a little bothered by the saying. That was even though I had all the teachings on it . . . But when the devotional mentioned "the life is in the blood" something suddenly made a little more sense. It's a spiritual reality. As the song goes, "We can eat and drink of Jesus all the time! He's our daily life supply - only He can satisfy. Come and dine the Lord is calling come and dine!"

[Sons to Glory!]

Really liked this in Hannah W. Smith's devotional as it was very clear and common sense. In Christ we have liberty and should not subject ourselves again to fleshly regulations, which may look good in practice, but are of absolutely no value against the indulgences of the flesh. (Col 2:23) Oh the simplicity in Christ!

APRIL 25 BINDING OR LIBERATiNG

There are two kinds of Christian experience: one is an experi-
ence of bondage and the other an experience of liberty.
In the first case, the soul is controlled by a stern sense of duty
and obeys the law of God, either from fear of punishment or from
expectation of wages. In the other case, the controlling power is an
inward life principle that works out, by the force of its own motions or
instincts, the will of the divine Lifegiver, without fear of punishment or
hope of reward. In the first, the Christian is a servant and works for
hire; in the second, he is a son and works for love.

There ought not to be this contrast in the experience of
Christians, but as we have to deal with what is, rather than with what
ought to be, we cannot shut our eyes to the bondage in which so
many of God's children spend a large part of their Christian lives. The
reason for this bondage and the remedy for it are not difficult to find:
the reason is legality, and the remedy is Christ.

Nowhere do we find those two forms or stages of Christian life
more fully developed and contrasted than in the Epistle to the
Galatians. The Galatian Christians had begun in the right attitude;
they had entered into the spiritual life by the "hearing of faith" (Gal.
3:5). But when it came to a question of how they were to live in this
life, they had changed their ground. They had sought to substitute
works for faith. Having "begun in the Spirit," they were now seeking
to be "made perfect by the flesh" (Gal. 3:3). They had, in short,
descended in their Christian living, from the plane of life to the plane
of law. (SEC, 157-58)

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's another by Hannah Smith I was taken with this morning. This shows how much God values us - the church, His body, building and bride! I was taken with how things look to our natural eyes; the church looks all a mess. But He sees us as we really are and who we are in Christ. We need to see us through His eyes as He conveys in His word - an amazing "entity" not having spot, or wrinkle or any such thing!

EVENING APRIL 26

Who is she who looks forth as the morning, fair as
the moon, clear as the sun, awesome as an army
with banners?

The church of God which He purchased with
His own blood.

Christ also loved the church and gave Himself
.or her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her
with the washing of water by the word, that He
might present her to Himself a glorious church,
not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but
that she should be holy and without blemish.

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman
clothed with the sun. The marriage of the Lamb
has come, and His Wife has made herself ready.
And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine
linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the
righteous acts of the saints. The righteousness
of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and
on all who believe.

The glory which You gave Me I have given them.

SONG OF SOL. 6:10; Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25-27; Rev. 12:1;
Rev. 19:7-8; Rom. 3:22;.John 17:22

[Sons to Glory!]

I enjoyed these verses in daily Light yesterday morning. (yes, I usually read the evening portion the next morning). We are called to rejoice continually. Why? Because He has done; He is doing, and He will do so very much for us! Plus He is "our exceedingly great Reward!" (Gen 15:1) Rejoicing and giving Him thanks, even in the face of afflictions, is therefore actually a matter of faith. Why? Because we are telling Him we trust Him regardless!

EVENING APRIL 28

I will hope continually, and will praise
You yet more and, more.

Not that I have already attained, or am already
perfected. Leaving the discussion of the ele-
mentary principles of Christ, let us go on to per-
fection, not laying again the foundation of
repentance from dead works and of faith toward
God. The path of the just is like the shining
sun, that shines ever brighter unto the perfect
day.

I love the LORD, because He has heard My voice
and my supplications. Because He has-inclined
His ear to me, therefore I will call upon Him.as long
as I live. I will bless the LORD at all times; His
praise shall continually be in my mouth.

Praise is awaiting You, OGod, in Zion. They
do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty." Whoever offers praise glo-
rifies Me, Rejoice always, pray without ceasing,
in everything give thanks; for this is the will of
God in Christ Jesus for you. Rejoice in the Lord
always. Again I will say, rejoice!

PS. 71:14; Phil 3:12; Heb. 6:1; Prov 4:18; Ps. 116:1-2;
PS. 34:1; Ps. 65:1; Rev. 4:8; Ps: 50:23; 1 Thess. 5:16-18,
Phil 4:4

[JJ]

Great collection of verses! Very encouraging! Thanks for sharing them STG

[Sons to Glory!]

From the Sparks devotional. In our business, one thing we do is teach people about affirmations. Humans are always and constantly affirming something to ourselves, that is, we have a constant "self-talk" going on in our minds, telling ourselves how we should think and act. We don't have control over the past, the future, or much control over other things or even less over other people. We have been given a measure of control over the here-and-now thoughts and choices in our own heads. And though the enemy can do his "throw - through," we make a choice over what thoughts we allow to "roost" there. This is how we affirm things to be true (whether they actually are or not).

But God's truth is so much larger and is real, and is written in His word. In scripture we are told many things about God, His love for us, and His supreme ability to carry out what He has promised. And His word tells us all about who He has made us in Christ. It is these things which are the most powerful affirmations by far, and what we should dwell upon!

So each morning I get up and get into His word and turn to Him, to let His indwelling Spirit renew my thinking! He's so gentle and comes in to help, persuading and supplying me for what I need to do each day! Praise the Lord we can stand on His trusty word and affirm all it says regarding Him and who we are in Christ!

May 8

I am the Lord. I do not change. (Malachi 3:6)

The authority of darkness is a very real thing to us. We have
experiences, and if we were to capitulate to them, that would be the end of
us. He tries to bring upon us that impingement of the authority of darkness,
and if we surrender to it, capitulate to it, accept it, we are beaten.

If we are the Lord's, Christ is within, and Christ is supreme and we
must go on even if we have no feeling, or if we have a very bad feeling;
when it seems to be the last thing we ought to be saying, we say it because
it is God's fact, and when we begin to affirm God's fact we win through.

Believers know what it is for the enemy to try to make them accept
the authority of darkness. Stand upon the truth of God. God does not
change with our feelings. God does not alter with our consciousness. This
whole life of ours is subject to variation more swift than the variation of
weather, but He rules, unalterable, unchangeable. He is "the same
yesterday, and today, and forever." And if He is there within, He has come
to stay, and victory is in faith; believing that, standing on that, holding to
that; and we must carry that through to its [mal and full issue, that He is
Lord of all, "Head of all principality and power." Satan will sometimes try
to make us believe that he is in the place of ascendancy, the place of
supremacy, but since Calvary he is not, we stand there.

From: The Centrality and Supremacy of the Lord Jesus Christ - Chapter 4
www.austin-sparks.neUenglish/books/000732.html

[JJ]

Thanks for posting this STG.

This was encouraging for me today.

JJ

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

Thanks for posting this STG.

This was encouraging for me today.

JJ

You bet bro! His word is living and operative and operates in us for both the desire and the doing of His work according to His good pleasure!

[Sons to Glory!]

This is the Sparks devotional from yesterday. I was struck by how these few verses really encapsulated what the Lord did with and in Paul! "That I may know Him" is certainly the central theme in all of Paul's ministry. And how did God carry that out with Paul? This verse then demonstrates how that occurred: "When it pleased God to reveal His Son in me." And then Paul was caught up to see things he was not allowed to utter. What did the Lord show Paul!? I believe it was an expansive view of what "His Son in me" really meant in its fullness. We have no natural idea of the height and breadth and length and depth of Christ, but His indwelling Spirit is revealing these vast expanses of Christ to us!

May 21

My determined purpose is that 1 may know Him.
(Philippians 3:10 AMP)

There are few words in his writings which reveal how committed to
the Lord Jesus this man was. The whole context is one consummate
outpouring of his heart to the One whom he said had "apprehended" him,
and he focuses all in a brief half sentence: "That I may know Him." The
impressive thing about this expressed ambition is the time at which it is
made. Here is a man who has had a revelation and knowledge of Jesus
Christ greater than any other man up to that time. That knowledge
commenced whence as he said, "it pleased God to reveal His Son in me."
That beginning devastated him, and sent him into the desert to try to grasp
its implications.

Later he had been "caught up into the third heaven and shown
unspeakable things, which (he said) were not lawful to be uttered."
Between, and around those two experiences, there is evidence of an ever
growing knowledge of Christ. Here, after all that, near the end of his life,
he is crying passionately: "That I may know Him." The very least that we
can say about this is that the Christ in view was a very great Christ indeed,
who outstrips the greatest capacity and comprehension of man. This stands
in such tremendous contrast to the limited Christ of our recognition and
apprehension! How very much more there is in Christ than we have ever
seen!

From: An Apostle's Supreme Ambition
www.austin-sparks.net/english/000688.html

[aron]

Originally Posted by TAS

Here is a man who has had a revelation and knowledge of Jesus Christ greater than any other man up to that time

I'd like to know what is the basis for such a statement. Surely Paul was in no wise inferior to the other ministers of Christ, but where does he or another state or infer that his revelation and knowledge of Jesus Christ is greater than any other man? This is thinly-veiled MOTA theology, which is to my knowledge unsupported. WL used such bias to back-door puff himself up, posing which was 'greater' and which was 'lesser', which was 'high' and which was 'low', which was 'revelation' and which was 'concept'. The whole thing was a shell game. Avoid it like the plague.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

I'd like to know what is the basis for such a statement. Surely Paul was in no wise inferior to the other ministers of Christ, but where does he or another state or infer that his revelation and knowledge of Jesus Christ is greater than any other man? This is thinly-veiled MOTA theology, which is to my knowledge unsupported. WL used such bias to back-door puff himself up, posing which was 'greater' and which was 'lesser', which was 'high' and which was 'low', which was 'revelation' and which was 'concept'. The whole thing was a shell game. Avoid it like the plague.

I think it's a stretch to bring MOTAs into this. But you're right, Paul never says he is greater and in fact, says he is least. However, if you look at Paul's statement (which the HS records in his writings), who else makes a statement like he did: "was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak"? Pretty lofty stuff, to say the least!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think it's a stretch to bring MOTAs into this. But you're right, Paul never says he is greater and in fact, says he is least. However, if you look at Paul's statement (which the HS records in his writings), who else makes a statement like he did: "was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak"? Pretty loft stuff, to say the least!

I mean, after talking with God Moses came down the mountain glowing to the point that everyone else was afraid to go near him. Enoch walked with God and was no more.

There is no recommendation in the Bible for the pitting of one person against another or one person's experience against another. We who have a different, and much more negative, experience of the LC than you simply recognize the bad seeds found in certain teachings and statements.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

We who have a different, and much more negative, experience of the LC than you simply recognize the bad seeds found in certain teachings and statements.

I don't think a "different, and much more negative, experience of the LC" is needed to recognize the dangers of exalting Paul. T.A.S. was no doubt a gifted teacher, but still was skewed towards the deeper, inner life teachings. It is incredible how we can be so studied in I Corinthians, yet have no clue how much we too are "of Paul," or "of" any minister.

As I read today's posts, I was reminded of my own journey. Growing up in Catholicism, Peter was the greatest, the first Pope no less. When I initially heard the gospel at my first engineering job, the Revelation of John told by Hal Lindsay was all the rage. Of course, the Recovery endlessly promoted Paul as the first MOTA. Leaving the LC, I became like a few Baptists I had known who loved reading James, and how he exposed the hypocrisy I had been in.

My conclusion is simple: the only balanced book is the Bible. Every commentator is biased. Reading only one commentator is like taking two steps forward, and three steps backward. After a while, the readers are far worse off than when they started. What we thought was beneficial Bible knowledge may be nothing more than arrogant pride filling our hearts. Happened to me.

Just read the word. Only exalt Jesus Christ. After all these years in Christ and in His word, do we really need someone else to teach us? (Read Hebrews 8.11 and I John 2.27.)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think it's a stretch to bring MOTAs into this. But you're right, Paul never says he is greater and in fact, says he is least.

It's a stretch to say that Paul was "a man who has had a revelation and knowledge of Jesus Christ greater than any man". The Bible doesn't say it, Paul would find the statement abhorrent - anyone who says such claim is spiritually lost. Jesus had taught strongly that he who's the greatest will be the least, and the least will be the greatest. Only God can say what is what. It's no different to me from touting the "rich ministry" of WL: it's entirely mis-oriented. I haven't read TAS but from such a faux pas I've become suspicious. It's much too close to the WL error. And even if I'm reacting to my LC past, you should be aware by now of the main audience on this forum, how they'll react.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Pretty lofty stuff, to say the least!

Like Ohio said, we could make "lofty" claims about many writers of the NT. But that would be a fundamental mis-aiming. Paul said that he was apostle to the uncircumcised, just as Peter was to the circumcised. No talk of greater or lesser. They would have found such statements to be repugnant. Jesus had repeatedly and explicitly warned about making any such claims.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

It's a stretch to say that Paul was "a man who has had a revelation and knowledge of Jesus Christ greater than any man". The Bible doesn't say it, Paul would find the statement abhorrent - anyone who says such claim is spiritually lost.

Well I was all ready to agree with you on the first one and a half sentences - and I do. But then you ended the next sentence on a poor note - too far to call TAS "spiritually lost" don't you think? (It seems akin to calling someone a "fool.")

Originally Posted by Ohio

My conclusion is simple: the only balanced book is the Bible. Every commentator is biased.

Agreed. Men are biased and can't help it.

OK - now that we've worked TAS over for his comment, what did you think about my commentary on the Sparks devotional piece?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well I was all ready to agree with you on the first one and a half sentences - and I do. But then you ended the next sentence on a poor note - too far to call TAS "spiritually lost" don't you think? (It seems akin to calling someone a "fool.")

Not only are comments like these made about Paul, but far too often Christians mention extraordinary superlatives about their favorite pastor or minister. Yes, "Paul would find the statement abhorrent" - but to infer that "anyone who says such claim is spiritually lost" would kind of target the majority of God's children.

But, my friend, never forget that the internet is far too often the land of extremes.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not only are comments like these made about Paul, but far too often Christians mention extraordinary superlatives about their favorite pastor or minister. Yes, "Paul would find the statement abhorrent" - but to infer that "anyone who says such claim is spiritually lost" would kind of target the majority of God's children.

But, my friend, never forget that the internet is far too often the land of extremes.

Yes, and that's just (I do love that word) fallen human nature. It is much of the reason that people have trouble communicating effectively (on here and elsewhere), because things and people are often painted in the extreme in our communication/responses. Then we expend our time and efforts on trying to address those extremes . . .

[UntoHim]

My dear brother SonsToGlory! You have communicated very effectively. And I must tell you that you have not been painted in the extreme. You have clearly given the strong impression that you feel that there is not much wrong or unbiblical about the extreme teachings and practices in the Local Church of Witness Lee. You have defended and affirmed the extreme teachings and practices of Witness Lee at just about every turn.

And although you have defended and affirmed the extreme teachings and practices of the Local Church of Witness Lee, I still hold you in the highest regard as a Christian brother. You see, unlike those who still hold the extreme teachings and practices of Witness Lee as legitimate and biblical, I do NOT consider those who hold a contrary view as "not communicating very effectively". In fact, I just take them at their words. And, my dear brother, words are all we have here. I cannot see your face. I cannot know your heart. I can only go by your words. And your words have indicated that you still feel that the teachings and practices of the Local Church of Witness Lee are legitimate and biblical.

I must tell you before God, Christ Jesus and all the angels that are listening: The teachings and practices of the Local Church are neither legitimate nor biblical. That is my official position. That is NOT the official position of this forum. I am just one member of this forum, and I am speaking to you as just this one LCD member. Other may feel very differently and that is ok! In fact, I expect that many feel differently, and you may hear from them here on this thread shortly.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well I was all ready to agree with you on the first one and a half sentences - and I do. But then you ended the next sentence on a poor note - too far to call TAS "spiritually lost" don't you think? (It seems akin to calling someone a "fool.")

Ok I'll rephrase, with apologies. Anyone who claims greatness on earth has fundamentally mis-aimed, and is in danger of taking themselves and their reader into the ditch. Of course TAS claims this for Paul and not himself, but that's like Lee puffing up Nee - the implied extension. Nee is great and Lee is great for having recognized and promoted it. Same w TAS & Paul.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

now that we've worked TAS over for his comment, what did you think about my commentary on the Sparks devotional piece?

Sparks was teaching Advanced Spirituality 563 after having failed Basic Spirituality 101. How then is he going to help anyone "apprehend Christ", as he puts it? Anyone who takes his teaching will absorb his bias.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

since Lee-hate has become the standard of this forum.

It's important to stress love, not hate, forgiveness, not condemnation. But poor teachings should be called out. And people who persist in error even after repeated warnings should be called on it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

TAS on the other hand, kept the faith and honored the Lord until his last breath. He was also pictured on the forum sidebar at one time, back when this forum resembled Christianity.

I don't know Assad & thus won't compare. But TAS appears to be Witness Lee Lite, having the appearance yet underneath lies fendamental error. The problem with such teachings is to become dazzled by abstractions, conceptual overlays, such that when in the gospels we may not see what's plainly written. Don't call anyone the greatest. Saying that Paul had the greatest apprehension was tantamount to the same. This is the basics.

TAS may love Christ but I'm wary if he's qualified to teach anything. (And I'm not a teacher - I'm saying, be wary of who you promote as one)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

since Lee-hate has become the standard of this forum.

It's important to stress love, not hate, forgiveness, not condemnation. But poor teachings should be called out. And people who keep promoting error even after repeated warnings should be called on it.

But if it looks like I'm judging then I fall into the same error I warn against. A failure to remain focused on Christ, and God's love, through him.

Originally Posted by Ohio

TAS on the other hand, kept the faith and honored the Lord until his last breath. He was also pictured on the forum sidebar at one time, back when this forum resembled Christianity.

I don't know Assad & thus won't compare. But TAS appears to be Witness Lee Lite, having the appearance yet underneath lies fundamental error. The danger is to become dazzled by abstractions & conceptual overlays such that when in the gospels we may not see what's plainly written. Don't call anyone the greatest. Saying that Paul had the greatest apprehension was tantamount to the same. This is the basics.

If I've lost the spirit of love whilst calling out error, I'll own that & try to change. But making distinctions among believers is error of the first rank, leading to a host of errors and eventual ruin. And this may be precisely why James wrote, "Do not be many teachers".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

It's important to stress love, not hate, forgiveness, not condemnation. But poor teachings should be called out. And people who keep promoting error even after repeated warnings should be called on it.

But if it looks like I'm judging then I fall into the same error I warn against. A failure to remain focused on Christ, and God's love, through him.

I don't know Assad & thus won't compare. But TAS appears to be Witness Lee Lite, having the appearance yet underneath lies fundamental error. The danger is to become dazzled by abstractions & conceptual overlays such that when in the gospels we may not see what's plainly written. Don't call anyone the greatest. Saying that Paul had the greatest apprehension was tantamount to the same. This is the basics.

If I've lost the spirit of love whilst calling out error, I'll own that & try to change.

aron, perhaps you did not know that TAS was made by WL the Recovery "Public Enemy #1." That was, of course, before Max R. assumed that role, and afterwards John Ingalls. WL attempted to garner public support in the 50's by linking with TAS, a well-respected British Christian writer and author, until TAS began correcting the false "ground of locality." Subsequently TAS has been demonized by LCers even after his death. Hardly "WL Lite."

The Recovery always needs a foil, an enemy to direct the members' animosity against. It seems like the forum has picked up this bad habit too, and StG currently fits that roll here on the forum. Had he promoted a heretic, nothing would have been said.

Obviously I agree with you about stressing love / forbearance and not exalting any man, and I prolly have more than a thousand posts confirming that position.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

My dear brother SonsToGlory! You have communicated very effectively. And I must tell you that you have not been painted in the extreme. You have clearly given the strong impression that you feel that there is not much wrong or unbiblical about the extreme teachings and practices in the Local Church of Witness Lee. You have defended and affirmed the extreme teachings and practices of Witness Lee at just about every turn.

And bro, what you have just conveyed is an example of the extreme me and Ohio (and others who've left this forum) have been highlighting. I've numerous times detailed many things I differ with WL and the LC on, but I don't recall you (or many other others on here) acknowledging those differing points. If that is an accurate assessment, and I think it is, why is it that these things I don't like about WL's teachings/LC practices are seldom to never acknowledged here? Yet you say I "feel that there is not much wrong or unbiblical about the extreme teachings & leadership and practices in the LC of WL" and have "defended and affirmed the extreme teachings" etc. Hmmm?

(Maybe I was posting all those things on a parallel universe LCD forum! )

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

aron, perhaps you did not know that TAS was made by WL the Recovery "Public Enemy #1." ... TAS has been demonized by LCers even after his death. Hardly "WL Lite."

By that logic, I should join the Titus Chu Church since he's professed love for the Lord Jesus Christ, and been vilified by the Parrots of La Palma. No, error is error. We don't traffic in 'frenemies' - those who presume to be teachers should be scrutinised. How much rot has flowed thru the church! We should call it out. Making distinctions among disciples, and basing your message on that, as TAS does, is fundamental error. Nothing built there will last.

I don't know TAS, perhaps he was a wonderful guy. Perhaps far above me at the proverbial "Wedding Feast''. But how can we passively watch error promoted? We're duly bound to call it out. If we lack charity in so doing, well amen, I'll work on that. (And I probably mislabeled TAS as "WL Lite" - rather TAS was WN Lite, whilst WL was WN Full Strength.)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

By that logic, I should join the Titus Chu Church since he's professed love for the Lord Jesus Christ, and been vilified by the Parrots of La Palma. No, error is error. We don't traffic in 'frenemies' - those who presume to be teachers should be scrutinised. How much rot has flowed thru the church! We should call it out. Making distinctions among disciples, and basing your message on that, as TAS does, is fundamental error. Nothing built there will last.

Your "guilt by association" logic is extremely flawed. TC was a ardent student of WL from the time of his regeneration on New Years Day 1953 until WL passed in 1997. That's 44 years in literally tens of thousands of meetings together, public and private. And btw TC never exalted anyone. Rather he offended and demeaned most all of the brothers around him.

TAS was never in the LC, nor was he ever a part of the Brethren. He was merely a guest speaker back in the day when WL was legitimating the Taiwan Recovery. I doubt WL ever allowed another guest to share his podium.

By your logic, every family member, every neighbor, and every colleague who ever attended a meeting, read a footnote, or ate a meal with these folks should be likewise branded as "rot."

Likewise Peter in his recommendation of Paul (2 Pt 3.15-16) must be considered part of that "rot," since he compared all of Paul's letters with the scripture, even those (eg to Laodicea) which the church at large never even saw, neither could canonize. And don't get me started on how many times Paul has exalted brothers in his writings.

When you are deep in a hole, with no where to go, please stop digging!

[UntoHim]

To Ohio and others.

Calling out heresy and unbiblical teachings and practices is not "Lee-hate". I don't hate Witness Lee. I don't hate Watchman Nee. I don't hate the Blended Brothers. I don't hate T. Austin Sparks. I don't hate any Christian brother or sister. In fact, I don't hate any human being. All humans have been made in the image of God. To hate a human being is the exact same thing as hating God. Hate comes from Satan, who is the originator, main promoter and the very embodiment of hate. Hate is the ultimate anti-expression of God. Hate is not just the opposite of love, it is the opposite of truth. This is why our Lord Jesus proclaimed that Satan is not only the original God-hater, he "does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44)

The subtitle on the header of this forum reads "Making sense of the Lord's Recovery Movement". This has proved to be quite the task. Many of the teachings and practices taught and propagated by Witness Lee are not only unbiblical, they are just plain nonsensical. For over 15 years, some of us have been trying to make sense of the nonsense. Some of us think this is an important and worthy effort. This does not mean that we are very good at it, it just means that we feel that it is an important and worthy effort. There are thousands upon thousands of people in the English speaking world that are still trapped within the system of error of the Local Church of Witness Lee. They are the ones most in need of making sense of the Lord's Recovery Movement. They are the ones most in need of seeing through the lies and seeing the truth. The truth of the genuine gospel. The truth regarding the biblical view and understanding of the nature and character of God. The truth regarding the biblical view and understanding of the Trinity, redemption, justification, glorification, the Kingdom of God and so many other fundamental and core teachings and doctrines. Many of these fundamental and core teachings and doctrines have been corrupted by Witness Lee.

To point out serious error to another brother or sister in Christ is not hating. In fact, it's just the opposite. We are called to speak the truth in love. As aron has so aptly stated, many of us have fallen short of speaking the truth in love. I agree that if the truth does not come with love - God's love - then the truth will not be accepted, no matter how convincingly or forcefully it is related. As I clearly stated, my views regarding our brother Sons to Glory! are just that - my views. It is NOT personal. I am here to speak what I know to be the truth about the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee. I do not hate Witness Lee, and I have never seen any expression of hatred towards Witness Lee on this forum. If I did it would be immediately deleted and the offending party sternly warned against expressing hate towards Witness Lee or any other human being.

This post is one-way only. I will not allow this thread to become a flame war. I have said my peace. I have taken great pains to make myself clear as a member of this forum, as a moderator and as a co-administrator. As my co-administrator, Nell may have something to say about all this, and after she does, I want to see this thread get back on track. From this point forward, all posts that are not within the general theme of this thread will be deleted without further notice or warning.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

To Ohio and others.

Calling out heresy and unbiblical teachings and practices is not "Lee-hate".

To point out serious error to another brother or sister in Christ is not hating. In fact, it's just the opposite. We are called to speak the truth in love.
-

OK, that's fair. How about the phrase "Lee-enmity?" Paul uses the word enmity in Ephesians.

And I agree that pointing out error is indeed fair, I regularly endorse that, but what happens when it goes too far? What happens when the "Lee-enmity" on the forum rises to the same level as Lee/Blendeds' broad-brush "Christianity Condemnation?"

Do we just play semantic games, or are there guidelines in place? Huh, Moderator? No flaming or ad homs here, only balanced fairness and tolerance. (Phil 4.5)

T. Austin-Sparks is well-respected, and widely regarded. His ministry places no price tag on his messages. Many view him as Charles Spurgeon, also a known critic of exclusive teachings in his day. Is it fair to trash TAS on this forum? Has not this thread nit-picked TAS simply because StG mentioned him?

[OBW]

It's funny to me that if Lee named anyone as the equivalent of Public Enemy #1, they weren't just someone from Christianity. They weren't even Walter Martin or the guys writing the books that they sued.

No. The top enemies were people that were either in the LC or potentially associated with it that were viewed by Lee to be a possible threat to his stranglehold on the attention, adoration, and money of his followers. So I would assert that despite the fact that TAS was more like Stephen Kuang in many ways, since he was sometimes asked to come and speak (back in Taiwan) and was somewhat followed by the LC membership at the time, he was a threat. Kuang simply had a different following and mostly didn't cross paths with Lee so little or nothing was said about him. But TAS was very similar to Lee in teaching and was a threat to his work at grabbing the title of Grand Poohbah.

That does not make TAS just like Lee. But it suggests enough similarity that the LC membership might follow him instead. Same errors? Not entirely. But I did note that the quotes from TAS (in the Scottsdale message StG linked) sounded a lot like Lee in putting Christianity down for not doing things their way. TAS was less direct and did not resort to name-calling. But his disdain was still evident.

[UntoHim]

Ohio, you just mentioned something to aron about being in a deep hole and the need to stop digging. So stop digging. You want some guidelines...you can have that guideline to start with, ok?

Nobody is trashing anyone. Discussion about false or harmful teachings is not trashing. It is discussion. You don't feel that anything Sparks wrote about in this devotional is false or harmful? Great! Let's discuss that and not flame, ok?

Nobody is nitpicking anything or anyone. We are discussing serious error that has lead to a lot of harm to a lot of people we know and care about. If this upsets you then maybe you should just ignore this thread, go listen to some nice music and enjoy your favorite beverage.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

My dear brother SonsToGlory! You have communicated very effectively. And I must tell you that you have not been painted in the extreme. You have clearly given the strong impression that you feel that there is not much wrong or unbiblical about the extreme teachings and practices in the Local Church of Witness Lee. You have defended and affirmed the extreme teachings and practices of Witness Lee at just about every turn.
-

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And bro, what you have just conveyed is an example of the extreme me and Ohio (and others who've left this forum) have been highlighting. I've numerous times detailed many things I differ with WL and the LC on, but I don't recall you (or many other others on here) acknowledging those differing points. If that is an accurate assessment, and I think it is, why is it that these things I don't like about WL's teachings/LC practices are seldom to never acknowledged here? Yet you say I "feel that there is not much wrong or unbiblical about the extreme teachings & leadership and practices in the LC of WL" and have "defended and affirmed the extreme teachings" etc. Hmmm?

(Maybe I was posting all those things on a parallel universe LCD forum! )

I bring this post forward as perhaps there's a chance it wasn't seen . . . in any case, as was said above: THE FACT THAT I HAVE POSTED THE NUMEROUS THINGS I DISAGREE WITH REGARDING WL/LC TEACHINGS & PRACTICES A CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF TIMES, ONCE AGAIN THAT WAS IGNORED. WHY IS THAT!? (I hope that's not considered "flaming" but I'd really like to know as we keep going around & around this mountain repeatedly . . .)

I'd also add that I asked for feedback (see my post #59) regarding my commentary on that original posting of the TAS devotional - again CRICKETS . . .

If that is acknowledged (finally) I'd like to move on, as this thread is about posting inspirational devotionals, and I have one for today that hopefully won't start another of these divergent discussions.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I asked for feedback (see my post #59) regarding my commentary on that original posting of the TAS devotional - again ...

If that is acknowledged (finally) I'd like to move on, as this thread is about posting inspirational devotionals, and I have one for today that hopefully won't start another of these divergent discussions.

This is patently untrue. I answered your request in my post #63. If you ignore it, fine. But don't then say that nobody answers you!

TAS makes Paul his paragon of apprehending Christ. This is flawed on its premise. Surely Christ is above our ability to see in full, the breadth and depth and height. But why key in on Paul? John said, "We beheld his glory" and Peter repeated that in his epistle. Is John our paragon? Or Peter? Does John have the "greatest appreciation of Christ"?

No, they (Paul, John, Peter, James, Jude, Luke etc) provide a composite and thus comprehensive view of the man Jesus, both before his crucifixion, and after.

Rather than keying in on Paul's attempts to apprehend Christ as our benchmark, I suggest keying in on Jesus Christ. Don't let another believer's "experience and enjoyment" be our metric. Rather, we have Jesus before us in the gospels. He said, "I always see the Father". Does Jesus here apprehend the Father? Yes, clearly, and in full. So why key in on Paul's partial apprehension of Jesus Christ? It is a fundamental mis-aiming in focus.

Jesus clearly taught, that we should obey him, as he obeyed the Father. We live by him, as he lived by the Father. Our relationship with him is set in balance, with his and the Father's opposite, as the template. Notice that he repeatedly says "even as" - don't you think this (e.g., John 15:10; 1 John 2:6) should be our focus, instead? If you want to apprehend Christ, then watch Christ apprehend the Father. Don't watch anything else. Don't key in on Paul as if somehow his "lofty" position were your express elevator to the top. Nee made this mistake with the mystics and Lee made it with Nee and we made it with Lee. No, focus on Jesus Christ, and if you do, you'll notice his unswerving focus on the Father.

Now, you can wave all this off, and that's fine, really. But don't say that nobody addresses your daily devotionals. And btw this is not a "divergent discussion". TAS made a fundamental error in focus - Paul's apprehension of Christ - and then made this flawed premise the basis of his ruminations. He mis-aimed. I repeatedly have made this point. There is no divergence, here. And yes, we know that you want to move on - whenever someone points out the basis of your thinking, and addresses the actual contents of the material, you decide that it's time to move on. Forgive us if we notice the obvious pattern, here.

Of course Paul is hugely important in the NT narrative. But so is John, James, Peter etc. None of them are the "greatest" that we can hang our hat on. Only Jesus gets this appellation. To attempt anything otherwise is to fail at the basics, at Christianity 101. No devotional can make up for that error, in fact if that kind of thinking becomes entrenched then it's fatally flawed in scope.

[Nell]

This forum is not about any one member. Neither is it about demanding a response to your post, and complaining at the sound of crickets. Persuading someone to agree with you does not define "effective communication".

As aron said "And yes, I know that you want to move on - whenever someone points out the basis of your thinking, you decide that you want to move on. Forgive us if we notice this obvious pattern."

When one member is constantly the center of the discussion, and draws the same reaction from the membership, time and time again, for years, without addressing the "basis of your thinking", instead, wanting to "move on", we can hear those crickets too.

When Sons to Glory! was moderated a few weeks ago, his response? ...crickets.

So this tangent ends. Back to the topic.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

So this tangent ends. Back to the topic.

Nell

If I focus on your devotion, or I focus on my devotion, or TAS focuses on Paul's devotion, or I focus on TAS talking about Paul's devotion, or if WN keys in on Jessie Penn-Lewis or Madame Guyon and we all then appreciate WN, etc, etc, etc... all of this is a mis-orientation.

But if you see the devotion of Jesus, on earth, with his Father in heaven, now there's something to hang your hat on. There's the "sure peg" on the wall. In Isaiah 22:23 the "him" is Jesus Christ the Nazarene and no other. Don't look at Paul's portion, or even your own. There is only one safe place for your attention, your daily devotional inspiration.

Now, Paul is a great window into Jesus Christ, assuredly. But Paul, and John, and you and I, we're all faint glimmers of the one who shines brightly "until the coming day". Don't waste your time comparing people's portion. To say Paul is "lofty" or the "greatest" is like saying "the rich ministry of Witness Lee". Google that one sometime and see how many different hits you get, and all the hits are from biased and self-serving plants, co-opted and used as a means of promoting others as a way to promote oneself.

Now, I'm not saying TAS is guilty of the last charge. But on this forum, you have to understand we're particularly sensitive to that possibility, and have our antennas finely tuned, so please bear with us if we comment thus, and we'll bear with others as well. We all must bear one another with love. There's no other way home.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

This forum is not about any one member. Neither is it about demanding a response to your post, and complaining at the sound of crickets. Persuading someone to agree with you does not define "effective communication".

As aron said "And yes, I know that you want to move on - whenever someone points out the basis of your thinking, you decide that you want to move on. Forgive us if we notice this obvious pattern."

When one member is constantly the center of the discussion, and draws the same reaction from the membership, time and time again, for years, without addressing the "basis of your thinking", instead, wanting to "move on", we can hear those crickets too.

When Sons to Glory! was moderated a few weeks ago, his response? ...crickets.

So this tangent ends. Back to the topic.

Nell

Well Nell - there you are . . . Yes, agreed - as I did a few weeks ago for the peace of the forum, we'll simply move on. There's no point in trying to prove who is right or wrong or responsive or unresponsive (a real fruitless endeavor/rabbit hole on here). Thank God for the love, forgiveness and blood of Christ, which we all need in abundance (often without knowing it)!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

There's no point in trying to prove who is right or wrong or responsive or unresponsive.

You were the one who made the remark about being unresponsive. And we are not trying to prove, but to engage. There is a word in the title of this forum called "discussions" which I think means some back-and-forth mutual learning. Not someone "proves" anything.

You used the words "greatest" and "lofty" and I pointed out why that is dangerous, in the flesh, to give to another believer. You never really engage, even when I used the contents of your quote, and the following comments you made. Nope, time to move on. Then, what's the point? Post something, hope for an 'amen' and if it doesn't come then move on? Where is the discussion?

There is a great scene in the early church, where they're in some heated discussion, and the principals involved don't agree to disagree, nor decide its time to move on. They really, apparently engaged each other, on the core contents of their beliefs, and the understandings and interpretations they held. And they collectively decided what was the will of God in this matter. Pretty strong testimony. It was in Acts 15, when they decided on the matter of receiving the new gentile believers. Certainly there was ground to take either position, there were scriptures to back up either position, but they engaged - see esp v 7. They were willing to engage each other. They didn't just pass on platitudes then walk out when they didn't get a reflexive 'amen'.

TAS' work is titled "An Apostle's Supreme Ambition" so I guess that Paul is his example of devotion, here. Yes Paul says 'imitate me as I imitate Christ' but you first have to see Christ to see how Paul does at that imitation effort. But when the focus is on Paul's supreme ambition, there's a danger there... we were told about various "spiritual giants" and their self-less devotion to Christ, and we found out later they were padding the accounts. Paul becomes their amanuensis, their inspiration, their means of convincing the dupes that they're somehow 'higher' than the rest; thus I noted your term "lofty". We'd do well to avoid that. I point out Christ's obvious devotion in the gospels, but no response.

Yet you repeatedly don't want to engage but would rather move on. Then why post your devotionals? It makes no sense.

[OBW]

StG challenged us for a critique of the TAS devotional and his own comments on it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

My conclusion is simple: the only balanced book is the Bible. Every commentator is biased. Reading only one commentator is like taking two steps forward, and three steps backward. After a while, the readers are far worse off than when they started. What we thought was beneficial Bible knowledge may be nothing more than arrogant pride filling our hearts. Happened to me.

(I quoted more of Ohio’s post than StG did, just for a more complete look at what he was saying.)

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Agreed. Men are biased and can't help it.

OK - now that we've worked TAS over for his comment, what did you think about my commentary on the Sparks devotional piece?

Ohio said a lot. It might be that many are not as biased as some others, but he is correct, they all have a slant. Even those that have modified over time and/or try to see beyond their bias still have some level of bias.

And StG’s one-sentence dismissal of the fact might be a hint that either he is unwilling to recognize the significance of any bias, or possibly that he is predisposed to like the particular bias of TAS. There are other possibilities, so I am not making a definitive accusation. But I think there is something there. And I will admit that I am predisposed to like whatever bias certain other writers have. So the only question becomes what is the bias and is it something that can be ignored or accepted without spiritual harm.

(BTW, someone made reference to “spiritually lost” concerning TAS. Other than lashing out at that statement as if they were accusing him of not being Christian, it was never really followed up on. My take was not to say he was not Christian, but that in terms of the spirituality of the topic being discussed, he seemed to be wandering around in strange territory. In other words, “lost” in the sense of not really knowing what he was talking about, not in the sense of having no salvation.)

Now to StG’s challenge about TAS’s devotional and StG’s comments on it.

After reading the entire context in which Phil 3:10 is found, I am not sure that it is about any kind of superiority of knowledge of Christ on the part of Paul, or hinted at by comparison to his learning through whatever means, including the limited description he gives elsewhere that involves some account that could not be uttered. I am not sure that some vision that he cannot provide descriptions for is of practical use to the Philippian believers. Instead, a comparison of the path of false teachings and evil workers — a false circumcision — is contrasted with a high calling that is always upward.

He describes the old ways and things as loss and rubbish (or dung, depending on the translation), compared to Christ and the righteousness found in Him through faith. He does not define how the “power of His resurrection,” “the fellowship of His sufferings,” or being “conformed to His death” are encountered. We have tried to work this out through many studies and sermons. The thrust of inner-life teaching is geared toward this kind of study. And the results are mostly internal. They are about a sense of some kind from mental, spiritual, and sometimes physical activities. That sense is often described as peace, joy, excitement, and so on. It has been described on this forum as a “bubbling-up.”

But what do those things do for the believer? That is the real key. We like to read about the spiritual stuff that we can’t describe as being practical to life here, today, on earth as image-bearers of God who are members of His Kingdom. Just a few verses later, Paul says to follow his example and pattern. Is he talking about getting excited about being taught about Knowing Christ, the power of his resurrection, the fellowship of his sufferings, and being conformed to his death? Are we excited that our citizenship is in heaven and therefore this life rally isn’t so important?

Or is the “fruit” of this speaking not really about knowing a lot of stuff. Or praising the Lord for it over and over at meetings. Maybe we need to continue on to the next page (chapter). There it is. Live in harmony. Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. (And I don’t think that the word “spirit” was a reference to one of Nee’s parts of man.) Don’t be anxious (I could use some of that right about now), but let your requests be known to God. (Don’t just pray for “high” things.) The peace of God will guard your hearts and minds. Dwell on things that are true, right, pure, lovely, of good repute.

But if we take this one verse (Phil 3:10) in isolation, it is easy to understand it as some kind of challenge for a knowledge quest. To ignore life and seek the spiritual. And that is only truly possible in the false world in which the secular is not spiritual for the Christian. The world where normal living is a distraction from Christ.

I would not say that there is nothing in Phil 3:10 to contemplate. But to see it as mostly a challenge to “see” more and more of Christ without reference to its effects on our normal lives rather than understanding the pursuit of Christ and his righteousness which has everything to do with our lives is to miss the point. While the point is Christ, when stated in those few words, those of inner-life leaning take it to mean that the point is spirituality for the sake of spirituality. More knowledge connected to inner senses for the purpose of instilling those senses into others. It is not for the purpose of our living here and now.

Now TAS did not say that much. But he did go on to compare how much Paul must have already known about Christ because of whatever training he got in those 14 years, including this almost out-of-body experience mentioned elsewhere. TAS is of a tradition that, like Lee, Nee, and many others, is too focused on isolated spirituality and not on the full gospel of "Christ with man" to reclaim us as those bearing his image in the world here and now. Not just in the New J. And until then, not just in meetings.

In short (too late!), while I do not find anything entirely wrong about this short devotional by TAS, I do think that it misses the point in two ways. First, it is too focused on a mark on the bark of a tree in a large forest that is what Paul is trying to speak about. Second, with or without the first miss-focus, I believe that the goal is too ethereal and almost totally impractical. Not that ethereal is entirely wrong, or that the practical is everything, but that if there is no practical, it does not matter how right your ethereal is.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

...while I don't find anything entirely wrong about this short devotional by TAS, I do think that it misses the point in two ways. First, it is too focused on a mark on the bark of a tree in a large forest that is what Paul is trying to speak about. Second, with or without the first miss-focus, I believe that the goal is too ethereal and almost totally impractical. Not that ethereal is entirely wrong, or that the practical is everything, but that if there is no practical, it does not matter how right your ethereal is.

I didn't really make the second point of actual and practical working-out of one's salvation, but my "focus on Christ instead" option would (hopefully) bring the reader there. But the first point was exactly what I wanted to say, but less inflammatory (ha-ha). There really seems to be a mis-emphasis. Now, we all do that, but when a teacher does it, and even codifies it, as WL did, it can really go bad places. So I was rather strong against TAS' emphasis, especially coming from the LC tradition. We majored in the minors and ignored the majors. One-half of a verse would get a page of small-print footnotes. But when you look at the context of the actual verse, it really didn't imply that. But the half-verse was convenient for some abstraction which made the speaker look good and made the hearers feel good, but not much to do with the Jesus of the gospels.

Originally Posted by OBW

TAS is of a tradition that, like Lee, Nee, and many others, is too focused on isolated spirituality and not on the full gospel of "Christ with man" to reclaim us as those bearing his image in the world here and now. Not just in the New J. And until then, not just in meetings.

The focus can cause one to say, "Gain Christ!!!" over and over, then go home, satisfied, "What a good meeting that was! So enjoyable!!" Thinking that shouting Paul's words and we have his "lofty" experiences transferred. Perhaps not what TAS or StG was doing but the similarity is there. How do we not know that James' "True religion is to visit widows and orphans and keep oneself unspotted from the world" isn't the height and depth and breadth of Christ? I mean, isn't that in line with Jesus' teachings? Doesn't that possibly count every bit as much? Not to promote James per se but rather, there are many views of this marvelous person, through his disciples, and the various testimonies of the impact he made on them.

And "Isolated spirituality" was right. I thought that I was on the express train to Overcomer Land but where was the outflow into a darkened world? There was a fundamental mis-orientation there.

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for all the in-depth analysis of the TAS devotional - both Aron and OBW put some goodly time & effort into looking at that going both forward and backward! However, what I'd asked for (a couple times) was not a review of what TAS said, but rather what folks thought of my comment regarding the TAS devotional (and actually what I said was more a comment on the verses TAS cited, than what he had to say). In that regard, I think all there's been was a one-liner response (by Aron I think), that really didn't address very much.

So here it is again (let's see how much discussion this generates):

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This is the Sparks devotional from yesterday. I was struck by how these few verses really encapsulated what the Lord did with and in Paul! "That I may know Him" is certainly the central theme in all of Paul's ministry. And how did God carry that out with Paul? This verse then demonstrates how that occurred: "When it pleased God to reveal His Son in me." And then Paul was caught up to see things he was not allowed to utter. What did the Lord show Paul!? I believe it was an expansive view of what "His Son in me" really meant in its fullness. We have no natural idea of the height and breadth and length and depth of Christ, but His indwelling Spirit is revealing these vast expanses of Christ to us!

[Sons to Glory!]

We've been having so much "fun" with the TAS devotional, I almost failed to post this other one I wanted to from yesterday! It's from Hannah W. Smith's daily devotional, "God is Enough." At one point someone made a statement about another day in her devotional, that it was all too much focused on the "inner-life." I thought this day's reading from the same devotional, was a good overview regarding how the inner-life must also be evidenced outwardly.

BTW: I don't always agree with things I read in the various devotionals . . . a number of times there's been whole days that I either don't agree with or maybe I don't understand. But then other times a devotional's daily reading may seem to lean toward one thing or another too much. If a daily reading is taken by itself alone, one might get the impression that the author was all one way or the other extreme. (I've also had the experience of reading a devotional entry one year and not getting it at all, only to receive light the next year on the same reading!)

In the end of course, as was mentioned on this thread a couple days ago, the final authority always has to be scripture itself.

MAY 23 SEEING IS BELIEVING

The life hid with Christ in God is a hidden life as to its source, but
it must not be hidden as to its practical results. People must see that
we walk as Christ walked if we say that we are abiding in Him. We
must prove that we possess what we profess.

This means a great deal. It means that we must turn our backs
on everything that is contrary to the perfect will of God. It means that
we are to be a "peculiar people" (d. Titus 2:14) not only in the eyes
of God but in the eyes of the world around us. Wherever we go, it will
be known from our habits, tempers, conversation, and pursuits, that
we are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ We must no longer look on
our money as our own but as belonging to the Lord, to be used in His
service. We must not feel at liberty to use our energies exclusively in
the pursuit of worldly means, but must recognize that if we seek first
the kingdom of God and His righteousness, all needful things will be
added unto us (d. Matt. 6:33).

We will find ourselves forbidden to
seek 'the highest places or to strain after worldly advantages. We will
not be permitted to make self, as heretofore, the center of all our
thoughts and aims. Our days will have to be spent not in serving
ourselves but in serving the Lord. We will find ourselves called on to
bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. All our
daily duties will be more perfectly performed than ever, because
whatever we do will be done, "not with eyeservice, as menpleasers:
but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart"
(Eph. 6:6). (SEC, 202-3)

[OBW]

I think these verses really encapsulate yet another way that Paul uses some spiritual truths to bring us around to practical living. And even if he intended to get us trying to get into these spiritual things, it was not really about him. He used himself to establish that there is always more.

But if his goal was to say so much about unsearchable riches (not the terms he used in this particular place) so we would seek after them more and more, then he really needed to say more than a few facts that are really not so easy to grasp hold of. We need something more graspable than "more Christ." Or more conformed to his death. I know it is real and it spiritually happens, but I have no idea how it is that this happens in terms of something I can pursue.

My problem is that this whole chapter starts with a different kind of circumcision (law) v the work of Christ segment that eventually ends with "get along with each other" and so forth. It is not a challenge to outdo Paul in knowing Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for all the in-depth analysis of the TAS devotional - both Aron and OBW put some goodly time & effort into looking at that going both forward and backward! However, what I'd asked for (a couple times) was not a review of what TAS said, but rather what folks thought of my comment regarding the TAS devotional (and actually what I said was more a comment on the verses TAS cited, than what he had to say). In that regard, I think all there's been was a one-liner response (by Aron I think), that really didn't address very much.

Nice deflection. And I've come to expect no less. Question: what did you think, really, of my comments on TAS' devotional? And if my comments were irrelevant, since your comments were separate and unrelated to TAS' writing, then why did you include them on the same post with TAS? And if not unrelated, why such determined avoidance of engagement, if you're posting on the forum "Local Church Discussions"? Saying that I was going both forward and backward isn't engagement, sorry. It's non-speak.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So here it is again (let's see how much discussion this generates)

What does "these vast expanses of Christ" mean? How vast? How expansive? Is there any objective way of knowing if your own "expanse of Christ" is real or illusory? Suppose you sit in a chair and review such essays as this one by TAS - does your Christ expand? How do you know?

"I feel warm fuzzies"... that must be the spirit/Spirit..." But how do you know? I sat in the meetings for years, rehearsing such phraseology, chasing the 'glow'. In the end I had nothing. Maybe TAS or StG has something. But how are we to know how much, how high and deep and broad? Why then focus on it as if it's something of itself, to be held forth as a subject of some separate and serious inquiry, the focus of a book or a meeting or a morning devotional?

Peter's witness of the fulness of Christ, after watching him for 3 1/2 years, was "that he went around doing good" (Acts 10:38). The love of God flowed to Christ, through Christ, and into the world. "Go back and tell John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk again, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have the gospel proclaimed to them" Maybe that was the central focus of Paul, why God revealed His Son in him, that he might preach the him among the nations (Gal 1:16). And maybe for you it's to visit the sick, maybe for me it's to feed the hungry or comfort the grieving. Let God be the judge of how much (or little) we've apprehended in such works of obedience. If you focus on apprehension, even Paul's apprehension - especially Paul's apprehension! - you may apprehend illusion. You may say, "I see" and your blindness remains. You may speak or write of vastness, with nothing behind it except distraction (and by 'you' I don't mean StG specifically, but that there's no way to know if speaking of 'vastness' as something of itself does any good or just wanders off).

We have no way to judge, even if we count the messages given, the books published, the churches raised up, the albums sold. "To whom much is given, much is required" - who knows how much (or little) I was given? Simply to do one's best, is all. "I was a pitiful slave but I did my best", is all. ~Mark 14:8; Luke 17:10

Now, I'm not saying that TAS & StG are suffering from illusion. But for the sake of our readers, we should point out that TAS seems to be from the same 'school' of Nee and Lee, where a vague, intangible "Christ" is proclaimed to be all in all, which may have no bearing on the actual person Jesus of the gospels. We have no way to know how "vast" the apprehension of Nee or Lee or TAS (or StG or you or me) is, unless we're convinced that sitting in a chair rehearsing a few special words gains "more Christ", as RK and EM proclaimed confidently. If TAS is presenting something fundamentally different from that, how so? And if your comments are fundamentally different from TAS, how so?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

What does "these vast expanses of Christ" mean? How vast? How expansive? Is there any objective way of knowing if your own "expanse of Christ" is real or illusory? Suppose you sit in a chair and review such essays as this one by TAS - does your Christ expand? How do you know?

"I feel warm fuzzies"... that must be the spirit/Spirit..." But how do you know? I sat in the meetings for years, rehearsing such phraseology, chasing the 'glow'. In the end I had nothing. Maybe TAS or StG has something. But how are we to know how much, how high and deep and broad? Why then focus on it as if it's something of itself, to be held forth as a subject of some separate and serious inquiry, the focus of a book or a meeting or a morning devotional?

This is the crux of what I refer to as the vagary of trying to attain, know, etc. Christ, or his death, his resurrection, etc. That I feel something is itself vague.

And when we feel something, unless it is physical pain, it usually requires more than just the feeling to decide what it is. It is said that the feelings and emotions that are then expressed as joy, sadness, anger, or fear (as well as others) generally start with the same sensations. It is the context that causes us to turn it into the actual emotion. And when we are clear what is causing the feeling, we may correctly express the emotion expected. But if there is something happening that is not so clear, our response may be muddled. Something uncertain is happening to a loved one. We are unsure of the outcome and our love is at least partly overcome by the uncertainty of the outcome. But when the final outcome is known and it is positive (e.g., they pulled through a risky surgery and will fully recover) we often do not simply turn from anxiety to joy.

But sometimes we have certain emotions about things because they are learned. For example, when the local football team has a great play or wins a game, I am not as excited as some. Not because I don't care, but because I have not engaged in group activities that tend to emphasize extreme and even sudden excitement or anger based on every play, call, and final score. But I could learn to be that way.

In a similar way, those of us who have ever been involved in the LC, and even many who have simply been part of similar inner-life groups are effectively taught about the things that should "lift our spirits." And since the things that lift our spirits so often result in outward displays of agreement, excitement, etc., we have learned to be excited when we hear certain things. Or when we engage in certain activities. We expect that things read or spoken that include certain words or phrases will lift our spirits, so we join in the "amens," hallelujahs," and so forth. And since this is what others are doing, it actually does give us positive feedback.

So the question is this. If you didn't get the feedback, would you have concluded that there was nothing there? Was the sensation simply because of the content of the spoken or read word? Or was it the fact that because positive actions and statements were both expected and actually observed we had the sensation that the content was somehow so important or beneficial.

I realize that this kind of analysis of the things that have caused us to become excited and solidified our thinking related to those things is a bit harsh. But if the source of the sensation is something so vague. So large an expanse that you cannot actually put anything solid to. So much grounded in nothing particular. What is it? It may seem almost un-Christian to question anything about the "expanse of Christ." But if the things that capture you about Christ are without the ability to actually perceive, what are they? If we are simply excited to keep talking about the height, depth, and breadth of Christ, but cannot point to anything that actually provides meat to those lofty statements, then what is it?

To me, this is the failure of the inner-life movement. They are enamored with the feelings and sensations related to the words that they study and repeat. But they are so quick to dismiss the diligent effort of other Christians that it would seem likely that they truly have little more than a better lexicon for discussing things so that they are more stirred up about the words.

I know. Maybe too harsh. But it is what I have seen in both the LC and in other inner-life teachings. So spiritual that they are of no earthly good.

[OBW]

The purpose of scripture is not to cause us to joyful over words. It is to inform us. To teach us. Correct us. Reprove us. Instruct us. To make us complete.

And not complete in head knowledge, or knowledge that excites us, but in knowledge that affects our lives.

[OBW]

MAY 23 SEEING IS BELIEVING

The life hid with Christ in God is a hidden life as to its source, but it must not be hidden as to its practical results. People must see that we walk as Christ walked if we say that we are abiding in Him. We must prove that we possess what we profess.

This means a great deal. It means that we must turn our backs on everything that is contrary to the perfect will of God. It means that we are to be a "peculiar people" (d. Titus 2:14) not only in the eyes of God but in the eyes of the world around us. Wherever we go, it will be known from our habits, tempers, conversation, and pursuits, that we are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ We must no longer look on our money as our own but as belonging to the Lord, to be used in His service. We must not feel at liberty to use our energies exclusively in the pursuit of worldly means, but must recognize that if we seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, all needful things will be added unto us (d. Matt. 6:33).

We will find ourselves forbidden to seek 'the highest places or to strain after worldly advantages. We will not be permitted to make self, as heretofore, the center of all our thoughts and aims. Our days will have to be spent not in serving ourselves but in serving the Lord. We will find ourselves called on to bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. All our daily duties will be more perfectly performed than ever, because whatever we do will be done, "not with eyeservice, as menpleasers: but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart" (Eph. 6:6). (SEC, 202-3)

If all we had was the first paragraph, I would have nothing to say. But the second paragraph pushes the discussion in a vague direction. Based on the second paragraph, there is almost a sense of being removed to a kind of Walden Pond of spirituality. Not that any of the things mentioned are not in the scripture. But that they are not all that is in the scripture on the subject.

It is too nearly a kind of removal from the world. There is nothing that speaks of having a normal, ordinary human life that is righteous. Instead, it is so peculiar in its focus. It may be that the writer (TAS?) has no intention of implying that we are not to continue to have and live normal lives. But they sure do not say it. The whole of life is directed at peculiarity. Yes, the world will notice such people. But it is not certain that such people are much of a part of the lives of the people around them. There is no hint at anything that could be classified as engagement with those people. Anything that would appear to be acts of love for them like what we might have for ourselves.

It is not that such is actually precluded. But it is omitted. And the kinds of things that might fall into that category are, if mentioned at all, too often dismissed as being "works." And if they are allowed for, it generally is only where there is a high likelihood that the gospel can be intentionally fit into the time, event, etc. If there is no provision for the possibility of the gospel, it is not acceptable. (I've heard this one way too many times from too many different places.)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by OBW

This is the crux of what I refer to as the vagary of trying to attain, know, etc. Christ, or his death, his resurrection, etc. That I feel something is itself vague.

...

In a similar way, those of us who have ever been involved in the LC, and even many who have simply been part of similar inner-life groups are effectively taught about the things that should "lift our spirits." And since the things that lift our spirits so often result in outward displays of agreement, excitement, etc., we have learned to be excited when we hear certain things. Or when we engage in certain activities. We expect that things read or spoken that include certain words or phrases will lift our spirits, so we join in the "amens," hallelujahs," and so forth. And since this is what others are doing, it actually does give us positive feedback.

So the question is this. If you didn't get the feedback, would you have concluded that there was nothing there? Was the sensation simply because of the content of the spoken or read word? Or was it the fact that because positive actions and statements were both expected and actually observed we had the sensation that the content was somehow so important or beneficial.

I realize that this kind of analysis of the things that have caused us to become excited and solidified our thinking related to those things is a bit harsh. But if the source of the sensation is something so vague. So large an expanse that you cannot actually put anything solid to. So much grounded in nothing particular. What is it? It may seem almost un-Christian to question anything about the "expanse of Christ." But if the things that capture you about Christ are without the ability to actually perceive, what are they? If we are simply excited to keep talking about the height, depth, and breadth of Christ, but cannot point to anything that actually provides meat to those lofty statements, then what is it?

To me, this is the failure of the inner-life movement. They are enamored with the feelings and sensations related to the words that they study and repeat. But they are so quick to dismiss the diligent effort of other Christians that it would seem likely that they truly have little more than a better lexicon for discussing things so that they are more stirred up about the words.

I know. Maybe too harsh. But it is what I have seen in both the LC and in other inner-life teachings. So spiritual that they are of no earthly good.

For the record, this is what bothered me to no end as a church kid. But of course I could never question it in order to realize that the problem wasn't me. So I thought the problem was me, for decades, that "the dimensions of Christ" fell flat to my ears and didn't excite me the way it seemed to get oohs and aahs from those around me.

What on earth does that actually mean to me, practically? Tangibly? In this real physical world? The height, depth, and breadth of Christ? WHAT???

My mind conjures up some fuzzy (literally.....fuzzy) cube-ish spiritual substance that goes on forever that I'm somehow supposed to get excited about.

But that's not what the height/depth/breadth verse says. It's not talking about the dimensions of Christ, because that would be meaningless. The verses say.....

Ephesians 3:14-19
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

....the height and depth and breadth of what?

The LOVE of Christ.

Not of Christ. But of the love of Christ.

Ah. Now THAT I get. It's something that makes sense. Something I don't end up feeling condemned for not understanding.

And it's something that humbles me that the undeserved love of someone for me could be described in those terms.

For church kids:

-inner life speak = confusion and condemnation
-the truth of the Bible = humble gratitude and overwhelmed by His love

For the record, I do agree with what the Texas Street Preacher (whether I agree with his style or not) says in one of his videos that "enjoy the Lord" isn't in the Bible. It's been a while since I listened to it but IIRC he made the point that the grammatical English structure of "enjoy [noun]" is that you enjoy someTHING, not someONE. Fundamentally, according to English grammar, "enjoy [the Lord]" actually ends up de-personalizing Him into a thing.

And the local church wonders why they can't keep their young people around.

[OBW]

When we accept that the point wasn't to challenge everyone to plumb the depths of those dimensions and claim that it is better if we fawn over it, but to indicate (in a colorful way) that it is vast and that it is ours, then we can appreciate each new way that we see God's love at work in and around us. We don't always expect such love because our primary experience of love is from imperfect parents, siblings, neighbors, etc. Even imperfect fellow participants in the church. But for those in Christ, the love we can actually experience (there's that word in a more meaningful way) is greater than anything that we were able to obtain from even the best part(s) of the world.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Ephesians 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

....the height and depth and breadth of what?

The LOVE of Christ. Not of Christ. But of the love of Christ.

Interesting find here.

Various translations seem to be split on how to interpret. The KJV lineage (NKJV, ASV, NASB, etc) apparently apply these dimensions to Christ, or some unknown. Many other translations (NIV, NLT, LNT, etc) reference the dimensions of God's love.

I think this is a problem of verse arrangement. By separating vv. 18 & 19 where they did, the vast dimensions in v.18 are left without an antecedent, which must be found in v.19.

Your struggles as a CK reminded me of my own as a child trying to figure out how old God was. Exhausting.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your struggles as a CK reminded me of my own as a child trying to figure out how old God was. Exhausting.

In my case, it was as a 16 to 17-year-old suddenly having a brief glimpse of the vastness of eternity. It was quite impactful. (This was pre-LC by a year or two.)

Now I think of it in terms of the kinds of things that are talked about as "experience" in the LC or even what little I remember of some inner-life teachers prior to the LC. And the goal seems to be to keep having that experience as if it is somehow the thing that will hasten the day of the New J.

But for that one experience, while it has left some permanent impression, I have never tried to recreate that "experience" or felt the need to keep trying to out-do my prior consideration of how overwhelming the notion of eternity is. It was as if a little of the mystery of God was like a curtain that I was directed to a small opening to peek through for a moment.

It is the hint that was enough for me. I have faith for the rest. I do not need to continue to have emotional experiences of this kind to know and believe. To me, the experiences are too often a kind of fanciful "proof" that then requires no faith. If you can keep getting experience, then we must have gone beyond faith into some level of "tangible" proof. I guess not really tangible since it is only a feeling and not like a mathematical formula. Though that is what we too often treat it as. This is the empirical evidence that there is God. I can read from his scripture and these feelings will come. Even overtake me in some cases.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Not feelings. And that evidence is only observable in the changes to one's life, not like matter under a microscope. I recognize that isolating yourself, going to a lot of meetings, and having pep-rallyesque experiences is likely a change of life. But I do not see that anywhere in scripture as a relevant or meaningful activity or goal. Instead, it is the living in this life according to the righteousness of God that will happen when we walk according to the Spirit (among other ways it is described).

I note that Jesus spent a lot of time talking to the disciples and also to the crowds, and on occasion to specific ones who came to him. While the disciples continued to follow, and on occasion, he told others to follow, when talking to the crowd, he did not talk about actively following him on his journeys with the disciples. He told them how to live and then sent them home. Not to "experience Christ" or to go to a lot of meetings to exercise their spirits., but to live according to what he had taught.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Nice deflection. And I've come to expect no less.

And I feel exactly the same about the responses I get from many on here oftentimes! I point out and show things I did or didn't say things - quoting actual posts - and they're many, many times completely sidestepped. Yes, it is more than a little frustrating (but it seems many of you feel the same way about me). Certain ones will say things, and then never acknowledge that they were in error when a specific thing is shown them. But that's just the nature of the flesh - never seeing that log in our own eye . . may the Lord have mercy on us!!

We talk past each other a lot on here - a lot! And some things that could be answered simply get answered by some lengthy, philosophical diatribe, in which I often tend to glaze over a bit when I read it. That's my weakness, that is, I'm more of a big picture guy than a detail person and that just seems to be how I'm wired. I certainly do have the ability to dive into the minutia of detail when really needed and I think it's profitable, but it's not really a strength of mine. So please forgive me if I don't always keep up with all of the back-n-forth on here, especially when it gets lengthy and I don't always connect it well with what I think the kernel of the discussion was (and also when things get accusatory).

And especially now when I've been dealing with a rather intense situation of caring for an elderly parent's details. My energies are really going into that right now, so it makes little sense to get too caught up in other things that are taxing to my energy. (however, a big plus of this forum has been that it's frequently caused me to turn to the Lord and give things to Him, and ask that I experience His love for all of you)

So with that said, I've thought for some time to take a break from this forum, which routinely causes me more angst than it's worth (that shouldn't be amongst brothers, right?). I'm not sure when I'll be back - last time I think I took a break from here of about 5-6 years or so (2014-2018?). I might continue to monitor from time to time, or might even post something . . . if I have the peace to do so. So if you expect little of me, please expect even less! (my wife says the secret to happiness is low expectations . . . I always wonder if she has me in mind when she says that )

I'll leave y-all with a few rich verses:
"The Lord be with your spirit - grace be with you." "Let all that you do be done in love." "Christ in y-all (lit trans) the hope of glory!"

Peace, Grace & Love (Christ Himself) - StG!

[Nell]

Don’t forget the fact that we walk a two-way street. We are under no obligation to respond to anyone’s post just as you are prone to “move on” rather than respond when you are called out on something you post. All are free to reply or not.

You have not apologized for your behavior, which earned you being moderated a few weeks ago. I can only believe this is because you are not sorry, or you don’t think you did anything wrong.

You are oblivious to the angst we have routinely experienced at your hand. I’m not inclined to sympathize with you on any of your complaints about us. You not keeping up is not the problem. You don’t seem to be self-aware about your own beliefs and no one has been able to reach you.

I am sorry for what you are facing with your parents...I’ve been there.

Nell

[Covert]

My brother STG, Do what you have to do brother. I do feel a little bothered with how the recent posts has gone with you and some other posters regarding Leeite accusations. When I think you of as a person and know who are you are at heart- a very caring brother. I think, is there any other way the recent interactions with you and the other mods/admins could have gone better. It wasnt too crazy but it was little cold. You spend thousands of posts on this forum and I definitely dont agree at all with the conclusion of you being a leeite. You might not hate/disregard all of witness lee teaching but that does not mean you are leeite for not doing so.

It just pains me a little to see you possibly take a lengthy hiatus because of a dialogue that could have been approached differently. You and Nell most definitely are not on the same spot of the lee hate spectrum. That is because you have different life experiences that lead to your opinions/thoughts.

I know I will definitely PM you and keep up with you. It was always nice to see a positive and caring brother like you on the forums. Now It seems, there is one less valuable poster and brother in Christ going away from the forums. As of now there is probably less than a handfull of people left on these forums that are active. 1. Covert 2. Trapped 3. OBW 4. Nell 5. Untohim. Ohio recently came back for a bit but who knows if he wont just be gone for some months again. Come back anytime brother I will say with full confidence you are not a leeite, not even close. You might not despise every single thing witness lee taught and find some books of his you dont mind keeping on your self, but that does not mean you a are a witness lee goon because of it. This is my opinion and I think most people on here know who you are at heart and appreciate you. Take care brother, will PM you in the future!

Well for the meantime: OBW, Trapped, Untohim, Nell, and myslef. Its just us for the most part, so lets see how it goes. I remember reading a post by OBW with concerns of how many people left the forums for a lack of productive dialogue in regards to certain labels attached to the LC. Well I just came from reading a very old thread titled "The LCS Factor". That was an awesome thread full of so many people with so much content shared and many views discussed. It even got heated but nevertheless remained productive and much developed dialogue was produced. I wonder what happened to threads like that and where did all those people on that thread go. Maybe they spend a lot of time on here and simply had to drop the forum enthusiasm at some point. Maybe they got tired of something? Idk, I do wonder if we can have threads like that ever again, that's the big question.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Covert

My brother STG, Do what you have to do brother. I do feel a little bothered with how the recent posts has gone with you and some other posters regarding Leeite accusations..

I never said StG was a Leeite, rather that TAS was Lee Lite, which I later changed to TAS being Nee Lite and WL as Nee Full Strength. But Leeite, no. Perhaps someone else did, but that would be uncalled-for, and I'd hopefully be just as willing to correct that as with TAS' remark that Paul had the greatest spiritual apprehension of the disciples.

When I saw that quote from TAS I objected - that's not only wrong but dangerously wrong. Jesus had clearly taught not to elevate anyone. You can read the gospels, there are a half-dozen clear instances of this teaching. Do you think Paul would brook this? Of course not! The title of TAS' essay was "An apostle's supreme ambition". So consider TAS' focus, here, on elevating Paul in the context of his essay: we were in a group (LC) where certain "spiritual giants" were elevated, and those who elevated the "giant" or "greatest" were by association also raised up. Why do you think WL titled the Nee biography "A Seer of the Divine Revelation"? Those who recognized and promoted greatness were then by association given some of that. Look at the cheerleaders of Lee - where they're ensconced now atop the heap. They got it. That was the way to the top. Even though TAS may have had peers, in contrast to WN and WL (and TC, DYL etc) his elevation of Paul to "greatest" is rank error.

As great as Paul's contribution to the gospel, the writing of the NT, the joining of the gentile world with the heretofore Jewish sect, to set him apart thus and create a teaching based on that was wrong on its face and should be called out, and strongly. When we see something that can lead people astray, and stumble the simple ones, we can either pretend not to see it or call it out. So I called it out.

Now, was I a little cold in my calling-out? Perhaps. OBW does a better job of being less inflammatory and making the same or similar points. But we all can do a better job of writing. I mean, StG implied that I was an alligator, which is similar to a serpent - he said, "Later, gator". But I bore this with much grace (that is humour, sorry).

Luke 2:13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

Peace is a great blessing and is foundational for love to grow. If someone speaks contrary to the spirit of the gospel of Jesus Christ, we're responsible to point it out. But a spirit of peace should never leave. If my comments lacked grace, and made peace to depart, I apologize.

Here's the end of Sparks' essay:

All this had been stated and presented in Paul's earlier letters; but it was a meaning which had to be progressively made real and true in spiritual experience. The meaning of Christ's death - Paul taught - was to be the inner history of the believer, and this would work out - progressively - in the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings. So that, by being conformed to His death, he'd come to fuller knowledge of Him and of that Divine power. It is ever so.

The all-governing passion opens the way for the effectual, and effectuating power, by the essential basis, through the progressive principle of conformity to His death.

From "A Witness and A Testimony", September-October, 1969, Volume 47-5.

None of this seems of itself wrong, but the focus is apparently on the "spiritual experience" or "inner history" of the believer, whether Paul, or Sparks, or you or I. There's manifold danger in a focus on the experience of the believer, as previously outlined. Yet there's safety in focus on the experience of Jesus Christ. Luke 9:51 says, "As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem." There we see an expression of supreme ambition. Don't look at Paul, or WN, WL etc etc. (Paul is an excellent guide - but we fix on Jesus, as Jesus fixed on the Father's will, on his destiny, on the road to Jerusalem. Here, Paul must give way, just as Peter gave way, as John the Baptist gave way, as everyone gives way).

Here's Spurgeon in 1880:

“For the LORD God will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.” Isaiah 1:7

These are, in prophecy, the words of the Messiah. This is the language of Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Deliverer, whom God hath sent into the world to be the one and only Savior. We know that this is the case because it is to Him, and to Him alone, that the verse preceding our text must refer, “I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.”

This is the declaration of Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews, and it is He who said of old in prophecy, and afterwards carried it out in actual life, “I set my face like a flint.” Luke seems to have had this passage in His mind when he wrote that, “When the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem.”

There is just the same meaning in the two passages, and one cannot help feeling that the words recorded by Isaiah were brought by the Holy Spirit to the memory of Luke when he penned that expression. The fact is, that our Master, even from eternity resolved to save His people and nothing could keep Him from the accomplishment of His purpose. From eternity He foresaw that they would fall from their first estate, and He entered into covenant engagements to redeem them. And from the pledge He gave of old, He never started back.

[OBW]

The all-governing passion opens the way for the effectual, and effectuating power, by the essential basis, through the progressive principle of conformity to His death.

Boys and girls, Mr. Lee's, er, Sparks' word of the day is "wait." Can you say "wait for the dispensing"? You should never be bold to strike out "on your own." You should always just "wait for the dispensing." Never try. It either happens because of the dispensing you waited for or it is dead works.

And whatever you do, never read the letter by James. It should not be in your Bible.

OK, funny enough. But my point is that there is an aspect of "wait for the dispensing" buried in so many inner-life teachings. Now I would insist that Nee took it somewhat further than some others, and then Lee doubled down on it. But it is right there in TAS' teachings. When he was quoted by the speaker in the message that StG linked a few weeks ago, it had disparaging remarks about how Christianity (seems that it is derogatory to refer to Christianity and Christians, even for Sparks) was too busy trying to do things, being regulated instead of seeking the inner strength to eventually just do it. I am paraphrasing and am not interested in looking back into it for the time marker in the video. I admit that it was much less hostile than if it had come from Lee or one of the replacements trying to be Lee-Lite. But it was still there. It is a similar sentiment just with less venom in it.

While I cannot remember much of the inner-life teachings I heard prior to the LC (1972 and before), the general emphasis is still there. It is all about cultivating a kind of "inner-scape" of spirituality with the expectation that any necessary outward activity would simply happen. Actually quite appealing in a Pentecostal environment like I was being raised in at the time.

I remember being in a small study with some other high school students at the AOG our family attended at the time. The material was trying to present a reasonable set of guidelines for living. It might be easy to call it more fundamentalism, though it was not presented in such a regimented manner. But I remember thinking that we should not try to decide what was the right thing to do and instead rely on an inner sense. (As aloof as I might have seemed listening to those inner-life guys, it was affecting me.) And based on how I was behaving in regard to certain things, it was clear that either I had no inner sense whatsoever, or it was pretty easy to misinterpret or ignore it.

[Covert]

Hey Aaron, thank you for your post. To clarify, I wasnt talking about you specfiically, I was talking about the overall recent Leeite accusations that basically led to SonsToGlory taking a break. Every body is entitled to their opinions but just be aware your words does affect people jsut as one person can say what they feel, people act on what they feel from what others say. STG simply felt a bit tired from it and his personal life is taking a lot of his time, as Noah said HE IS SICK AND TIRED (being humorous). STG just a little sick and tired so he is on a hiatus, same thing with Ohio and many others I cant name. It happens, especially on a public forum, it is going to happen. People come and go every now and there, its just how it is

[UntoHim]

Back on topic or I'm closing the thread.
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[OBW]

Seems it has mostly been on topic. Even the inner-life discussions are an important related topic that underlies too many of the devotionals not generated directly by the LSM.

And to the extent that StG seemed too stuck on basic LC-ish practices and ways, it was reflected in his responses to the devotionals and other posts, not some kind of aberrant behavior. If we want to persuade him to rethink things, beating him up for what he currently thinks is not the way. Show him some of the problems with what he has been taught (and continues to be taught) and let him see it on his own time. That is what discussion is. If we are going to chase off everyone who does not disavow Lee and the LC, including any kind of LC Lite (and by our definition and not theirs), then we need to rethink the purpose of the forum.

Besides, of all the rules of the forum, none of them relate to the amount of blatant or even "covert" pro-Lee sentiment that is posted. And as much as I don't like it, I'm not sure it is a profitable rule to create and enforce. But if you want those kinds of rules, then you need to post them. I cannot find where there is even a rule about trolling, baiting, flooding the forum with irrelevant posts (something short of, but like a denial of service attack), etc.

Or maybe you would like a thread for posting devotional threads without comment. Then create a companion thread for discussions and insist that discussion go there. The latest devotionals, while not entirely objectionable, did have content that was worthy of discussion, so . . . .

In any case, at this point, the amount of discussion (on the forum) seems to be diminishing, and closing a thread would appear to be contraindicated. Of course, if the devotionals have mostly been provided by StG lately, that may not make much difference.

[UntoHim]

So an off-topic post gets moderated, and then gets followed up with another off-topic post? Is there something in the water today folks?

This forum is NOT about any particular member or their particular views. When a thread becomes all about a particular member and their particular views, it becomes a distraction away from the theme of the particular thread, and even a distraction from the forum itself.

Come on guys. Let's be a little more considerate of those who are reading and lurking. StG! was the thread starter. He has decided that he wants to take a break away from the forum. I think this is probably a pretty good idea. If people really want to keep this thread alive, then the topic needs to be adhered to. We're all adults. Do we really need to post rules about such basic things?

Please. If anyone has a problem, concern or question about moderation, they can PM me. I will usually respond pretty quickly.

Your brother who is striving to be unto Him.
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[Trapped]

I think it is a good idea that Sons to Glory has left. Not the least of which is because of his personal un-called for potshot at me, emphasizing in italics the precise phrase I told him specifically was a trigger to me and was connected to painful childhood memories (i.e. "if I have the peace"). He was kind enough to add a smiley face with a massive grin along with it.....showing that he knew exactly what he was doing, and thought it was, I don't know, funny to hurt someone intentionally, and yet cloak it all in spiritual language? For the sake of people in the LC coming to the forum looking for answers, and being able to trust the right spirit of the people responding to them, I am soberly convinced that it is the best thing at the moment that he has stepped away and does not post here.

I spent much time last night reading through the "LCS Factor" thread that Covert referenced a few posts earlier in this thread. The main thing that struck me was that nothing has really changed. I don't really see any "what has happened to this forum", as there were exactly the same type of interactions on that thread as I see here and on others. Some people were insensitive, wanted to move on prematurely, avoid things, shirk responsibility, not listen to people's genuine hurts, and they got the light shined on them, and appropriately so.

That was a contentious thread and a stressful one to read. But there were plenty of participants. Plenty of discussion. And the same dynamics as there still are here.

People leave because they've talked about the LC enough. There is a natural ebb and flow to forums of this type because they are used sometimes for processing trauma and understanding you are not alone, and then......you get the help you need and you don't need the support anymore.

Or you have posted for years helping people who need support and it's simply time in your human life to focus on something else. You've helped people in one area, and now you feel you can help people better in another area. I've felt myself that I don't need to spend as much time here as I used to, not because of the dynamics here, but because I don't need to continually and daily live in reminders and discussions about a place that has had countless detrimental effects on me. Lots has been discussed here, but just like the blended brothers continually returning to the empty well of Witness Lee, there is also only so much any given person can discuss about the LC until they are satisfied. It may be a month of discussion, or a year, or 5 years, or 10-12 years for some. Each is different. And obviously with overtly pro-LC people gone, there is not as much draw. Maybe that was by design on DCP's part. Who knows. The threads as-discussed still stand, and that alone has immense value. This forum will forever be the thorn in the side of the LC leadership who know it exists and that their house of cards comes crumbling down the more people simply come read what's here. It stands against their threats, spiritual abuse, misuse of God's Word, deception of God's children, and entrapment of many human lives.

Thank you, UntoHim, for all of your hard work and long-suffering in keeping this forum going.

Trapped

P.S. I'm not sure what you think, Unto, but for sometime I've thought that this thread, which for all effects was just StG's personal enjoyment thread, might be moved to the "blogosphere" and a blog for StG be set up there where this thread can go. That way it is not "cancelled" but it would be in a more appropriate place. It was never about LC discussions from the get-go, and StG wasn't interested in hearing it when we went in that direction. The blog thing seems to me like a good middle ground.

[UntoHim]

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED.

Brothers and Sisters. Please consider why you are posting on this forum. Who are you taking into consideration when you post here? Where is your heart? Where is your mind? Where is your spirit?
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