Deceiving and Self-Serving Terms

[jesusislord]

In the Local Church there is an ecosystem of its own. They have decided to be separated from other groups and start to go back to the Bible. (actually many other groups did that)

But if you see from different angle some of the term is divisive

God's ordained way : Brother's Lee's way of doing things.
Restricted divine life : Be restricted, it's for the protection.
One city one church : Oh we have the light of the true ground of the church, don't go elsewhere!
The Lord's recovery : Reformation is good but not enough, the Lord is still doing His recovery. This is the Lord's Recovery. Basically, it's us.
Ministry of the age : There is only one ministry, don't go to any other ministry than LSM

Sometimes I doubt these terms are actually good, because they distance ourselves from other saints in other denominations.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

In the Local Church there is an ecosystem of its own. They have decided to be separated from other groups and start to go back to the Bible. (actually many other groups did that)

But if you see from different angle some of the term is divisive

God's ordained way : Brother's Lee's way of doing things.
Restricted divine life : Be restricted, it's for the protection.
One city one church : Oh we have the light of the true ground of the church, don't go elsewhere!
The Lord's recovery : Reformation is good but not enough, the Lord is still doing His recovery. This is the Lord's Recovery. Basically, it's us.
Ministry of the age : There is only one ministry, don't go to any other ministry than LSM

Sometimes I doubt these terms are actually good, because they distance ourselves from other saints in other denominations.

Oh yes, and there are other benefits too, for the 'ecosystem' of the LRM. Being 'restricted' limits your ability to grow to maturity, being ever dependant on WL's interpretations, instead of learning to be lead by God himself.
You aren't able to benefit from the teachings and insights of others, in the body of Christ, some of which are sorely needed in the LC.

It keeps you so cloistered within its system so that you are unable to make any assessment of what you are taught, or of how you are treated within. Meaning you are forced to accept everything they put on you, weather good or harmful. Yes, it opens the way to remove protections over your life that the law of the land provides. Whenever that happens, it's always bad.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Curious

Oh yes, and there are other benefits too, for the 'ecosystem' of the LRM. Being 'restricted' limits your ability to grow to maturity, being ever dependant on WL's interpretations, instead of learning to be lead by God himself.
You aren't able to benefit from the teachings and insights of others, in the body of Christ, some of which are sorely needed in the LC.

It keeps you so cloistered within its system so that you are unable to make any assessment of what you are taught, or of how you are treated within. Meaning you are forced to accept everything they put on you, weather good or harmful. Yes, it opens the way to remove protections over your life that the law of the land provides. Whenever that happens, it's always bad.

What they are robbing from the saints in the LSM LC, is, critical self thinking.

See my tagline ...

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

In the Local Church there is an ecosystem of its own. They have decided to be separated from other groups and start to go back to the Bible. (actually many other groups did that)

But if you see from different angle some of the term is divisive

God's ordained way : Brother's Lee's way of doing things.
Restricted divine life : Be restricted, it's for the protection.
One city one church : Oh we have the light of the true ground of the church, don't go elsewhere!
The Lord's recovery : Reformation is good but not enough, the Lord is still doing His recovery. This is the Lord's Recovery. Basically, it's us.
Ministry of the age : There is only one ministry, don't go to any other ministry than LSM

Sometimes I doubt these terms are actually good, because they distance ourselves from other saints in other denominations.

The God-ordained way (regarding the gospel) is that we plant and water, and God gives the growth. Lee had strategies and plans and exponential calculations and rules imposed on saints. God just tells us to plant and water. Talk to everyone. Tell everyone about the good news. In season and out of season.

OCOC is division plain and simple.

The Lord's recovery is the cross. That's how He recovered us. Without it, we had no hope of recovery.

The ministry/minister/vision of the age isn't a real thing, and if you want to think it is, well, then it has nothing to do with Witness Lee. But the ministry book The Vision of the Age, he reaches a point where he traced his way through the "lineage" of ministers of the age and then reaches the present day and then he literally says, "I'm not selling myself here but...."



And that's all we need to know. Witness Lee was selling himself by creating the false doctrine of minister/ministry of the age. Sickening.

I'm so pleased to read that you said "other saints in other denominations"!! Most LCers won't call members in denominations "saints", which is divisive in itself. But those believers in denominations definitely ARE SAINTS!

[alwayscurious]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The God-ordained way (regarding the gospel) is that we plant and water, and God gives the growth. Lee had strategies and plans and exponential calculations and rules imposed on saints. God just tells us to plant and water. Talk to everyone. Tell everyone about the good news. In season and out of season.

OCOC is division plain and simple.

The Lord's recovery is the cross. That's how He recovered us. Without it, we had no hope of recovery.

The ministry/minister/vision of the age isn't a real thing, and if you want to think it is, well, then it has nothing to do with Witness Lee. But the ministry book The Vision of the Age, he reaches a point where he traced his way through the "lineage" of ministers of the age and then reaches the present day and then he literally says, "I'm not selling myself here but...."



And that's all we need to know. Witness Lee was selling himself by creating the false doctrine of minister/ministry of the age. Sickening.

I'm so pleased to read that you said "other saints in other denominations"!! Most LCers won't call members in denominations "saints", which is divisive in itself. But those believers in denominations definitely ARE SAINTS!

On the shepherding words website, there's a pdf that says the following, quoting witness lee first:

"We have to see that in every age, God gives only one vision to man. In Adam is seen God's redemption. In Abel is seen God's way of redemption. In Enosh is seen man's need for God and man's calling upon Him to enjoy His riches. In Enoch is seen a redeemed one walking with God on the pathway of redemption. In Noah is seen one who walked with God and worked with God to build the ark to meet the need of that generation".
.....
'The minister of the age is the one through whom the vision of the age is released. Both the Bible and church history show us that the Lord raises up someone to take the lead in speaking forth the vision of the age. Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were both such vessels. Minister of the age is not an honorific used to cede spiritual authority to a person. Rather, it is an acknowledgement of the Biblical principle that in every age there is one vision and one man who takes the lead to release that vision and to carry out the ministry that is according to the vision.'

What do you think about what the pdf says? I'm really not sure, I felt at peace reading it but I really don't know what to think anymore....

( here's the link to that PDF - https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/The...allibility.pdf )

[Awoken]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

What do you think about what the pdf says? I'm really not sure, I felt at peace reading it but I really don't know what to think anymore....

Witness Lee's idea of a "minister of the age" is not Biblical and directly contradicts the revelation of the Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:5-9
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

So here we have Paul's attitude toward what he was. Not "the divine minister of the age", but merely one of a multitude of men who were serving God. "Servants", this is Paul's descriptor. While we are here on earth it is not suitable for a servant to take the attitude of having achieved anything, as the Lord instructed in Luke 17:10 - "So you also, when you have done everything commanded of you, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ " It is our part to humble ourselves before God and God will exalt those whom He chooses to exalt. And if you have any doubts about who He will exalt and who He will humble, He tells you plainly in Matt. 23:12: "For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." So if I proclaim myself to be, or somehow hint that I am "the only minister of the age", am I exalting myself or humbling myself?

Beyond the problem of the attitude itself, there is the problem of the fact that Lee's claim directly contradicts the Biblical revelation. What happened when Peter, John, and James went up onto the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?

Luke 9
32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.

34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” 36 When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen.

There is a "divine minister of the age", and His name is Jesus Christ. He is ministering to you from the heavens and you don't need an intercessor other than Him. He may shepherd you through the placement of many servants of His that He puts in your life, but they are just servants - and if they are good ones, they will help point you to Christ and Christ alone, not "the ministry". There have been many men who have come and have tried to set themselves up in the place of Christ, as a mediator between men and God. Don't be deceived. This is satanic. Satan wants to be worshiped.

Don't make "three tabernacles: one for You, one for [Watchman Nee], and one for [Witness Lee]". Nor for for any other men.

Hear His voice and obey Him - that's the key to living (forever, in fact).

Grace to you!

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

"We have to see that in every age, God gives only one vision to man. In Adam is seen God's redemption. In Abel is seen God's way of redemption. In Enosh is seen man's need for God and man's calling upon Him to enjoy His riches. In Enoch is seen a redeemed one walking with God on the pathway of redemption. In Noah is seen one who walked with God and worked with God to build the ark to meet the need of that generation".

Notice that Witness Lee's quote doesn't extend past the OT. Enoch, Noah, Moses, David... but that OT pattern points to the one with the vision for this present age, who is Jesus Christ and none other. So his analogy doesn't carry into the NT age, past Jesus Christ. It stops with Jesus. Note that Acts twice (3:22; 7:37) quotes Moses in Deuteronomy: "A prophet will God raise up like me. You must hear him." Jesus is that prophet. There's no lineage that extends past Jesus. There is no third, fourth, fifth prophet. Jesus is 'the' prophet, just like Moses was. The "hear him" is singular - there's no lineage of prophets in succession. There is one Christ.

Also notice how he's imposing his will: "We have to see that..." No, we don't. Witness Lee sees it because it serves his selfish needs. I don't - I serve Jesus Christ. I don't share your fake 'vision', sorry. Notice the phraseology continually used by Lee: "We need to" and "we must" and "we have to". He's trying to transfer his unmet needs on us. Beware. He's saying, "If you do what I say, everything will be fine." Don't believe it. It's a doorway to abuse.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

"'The minister of the age is the one through whom the vision of the age is released. Both the Bible and church history show us that the Lord raises up someone to take the lead in speaking forth the vision of the age. Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were both such vessels. Minister of the age is not an honorific used to cede spiritual authority to a person. Rather, it is an acknowledgement of the Biblical principle that in every age there is one vision and one man who takes the lead to release that vision and to carry out the ministry that is according to the vision.'

The quote from 'Shepherding Words' equally myopic if one considers, for example, John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards. Which one of them had the 'vision for the age'? Yet they both ministered simultaneously, and neither kow-towed to the other nor did they apparently need to. Both could share in the Lord's present move without being subservient. It is complete self-serving fabrication.

Or Paul and Peter, for example. Per Paul, "Peter was entrusted with the gospel to the circumcision, I to the uncircumcision". Paul's own words blatantly refute the nonsense put forth by LSM's house organ. Multiple people can do multiple things simultaneously without needing to be subservient to one MOTA. It's not "division and confusion" but the "multifarious wisdom of God." Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many abodes" - is that a house divided? Or a house multiplied? Paul and Peter were in no wise competing, nor was one subservient to the other. The eye doesn't compete with the hand, nor the foot with the ear. Christ is the Head of the Body. There is no other.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Awoken

Hear His voice and obey Him - that's the key to living (forever, in fact).

I agree, and that's the point I was making in Acts 3:22 and 7:37 in the previous post (#7) "Hear him" is categorically singular. Moses brooked no competing voice, nor does Christ.

[Raptor]

I think this is sad....but it is a good example of the mixture in the LR. This is the official LSM announcement of one of the brother´s recent passing away:

We thank the Lord for our brother’s long and faithful service to Brother Lee and to his ministry office. This is a great loss; nevertheless, we expect the Lord’s continued blessing on the ministry of the age.