Greetings from Hamilton, NZ

[SeekingWisdom]

Much Grace Saints.

I have lurked these threads for a while now but I have now decided to register an account. Here is a short intro of myself:

I came into the Lord's Recovery around the first year of my high school.

Originally I attended a Baptist denomination and growing up I was taught the "hell and heaven" gospel where; once you believe you get your ticket to heaven and just try to be a good person. This just seemed to superficial to me and the fact that there was so much degradation (i.e. churches mishandling financial matters, trafficking, etc. didn't help. It seemed like there was no different to people who were saved and who weren't. Unbelievers can show kindness too.

I was also quite anti-social, so the social aspect of going to church was not something that appealed to me. But when I first joined a meeting in the LD's Recovery I felt the speaking was a bit more weighty.

So I never had much trust in humanity in a sense, I was also skeptical. I believe that the moment we separate ourselves from Grace, we become no different to a sinner. So I enjoyed the writings of Witness Lee (most of them at least) but I never cared much for the person, nor did I idolize him, nor did I think everything he wrote was going to be perfect. Whatever aligns with the Word of God I say amen, and I ignore the rest.

I am still an active member. But my curiosity often leads to much questioning. I may not be wholly for the "ministry" (LSM publications) or trainings but I think there is something here. Anyways I only seek to know the truth. I trust in God, in the end He will get what He wills.

I'll leave the introduction there. It's a bit disconnected sorry.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

Whatever aligns with the Word of God I say amen, and I ignore the rest.

I understand that, it's the safe view, the "do no harm" view. But we applaud Martin Luther for not keeping quiet, and we also applaud John Wesley for speaking up. Both were told by peers to keep quiet, don't rock the boat, yet they persisted and were expelled from the assembly. I remember the comment of one aged and distinguished cleric: "By so little, Mr. Wesley, do you despise the holy sacraments?" To the Anglican it seemed "so little" but to Wesley it was worth talking about. And the cleric felt that the holy sacraments covered all the defects. To Wesley they did not.

Yet today, many have sided with Wesley and Luther, saying that they're not rebels but rather men of conscience who followed their inner voice. So there's a judgment call to be made. I can't tell you to speak, or to be quiet. Everyone has to follow their voice.

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

But I lack the wisdom to address this issues in a proper way as a young brother. For me, it does not seem as simple as just exposing the sin and darkness (not too sure if that is what you meant by calling out). Or exposing sin and darkness in such a way that leads to life.

An anonymous internet forum is one way to address these issues. I posted my list of questions, and am still waiting for answers. The fact that no answers have been forthcoming tends toward the idea that my questions do need to be asked, in some format.

(Even your reply on women in leadership, that "there were problems" - what problems? Caused by whom? My thought is that WL wouldn't let women in leadership roles because it automatically eliminated half of his potential rivals. [and we men went along because we were thereby categorically superior to half our fellow church members])

I think of the woman who was molested by Philip Lee, the LSM Office Manager, in the 1970s. What it must have been like going home, staying quiet in front of her husband. She couldn't speak because PL was connected to WL who was untouchable. Eventually when it was exposed, the those who spoke up were expelled from church, the damaged family was relocated, and PL went back to molesting other women. Sometimes speaking up is necessary. Yet even so, what venue one speaks up, what manner, and to whom, are all judgment calls.

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

I read through quite a lot of the material testifying against LSM and the LC. I invested a lot of time reading through testimonies, open letters, and even some recordings. I occasionally check for new threads on this website. All of it was for the sake of drawing a picture of what LSM and LC was, and what it has become.

The best picture I've put together of what happened - how it started, how it changed, what it is now and why - is found in the thread "The Asian Mind/the Western Mind" in the "Apologetic discussions" section. I think that certain cultural presuppositions were invested in the principals (WN and WL) which they in turn placed on the flock. In China of course it went over more smoothly. In the West, in the 1960s, Eastern Christian mystic WN seemed a fresh alternative to the tired Western church going though the throes of Vietnam War, Baby Boom rebellion, environmental crisis, nuclear threat. By associating with WN, WL got a free pass for a while. But eventually all the cultural baggage became the elephant that trampled everything in the room.

But you can see how it was packaged and sold in the 1960s and 1970s. Look at the words in "Splendid church life his green garden" -- "New and Fresh!" [Hymns #1237] Sounds like a laundry commercial. Or, "Myst'ry hid from ages, now revealed to me" [#948] - the Inscrutable Guru from the East deplaned, and we all sat round and got the skinny straight from God. Turns out, it wasn't straight from God. It was home-brewed theology shot through with Continental mysticism filtered through oriental culture. Seemed "New and Fresh" for a while but it wasn't.

[SeekingWisdom]

These problems were not so evident to me while growing up. May be it was the privileges of being a brother in the LC, or living in a smaller locality, or the fact that I didn't have much active involvement with the LC until recently. So for me it's not about "not rocking the boat". I have raised issues when someone spoke things that deviated from the truth. My fellow classmates often dismissed me or was not taken seriously. But I do not keep quiet and always question. I will not remain quiet if I witness these things before me.

I have not thoroughly gone through the threads and do not know which questions still have not yet been addressed but at the same time I can only my own perspective and experience. I do not represent LSM or the LC. I only speak for myself. But I am sure you are already well aware of that.

I speak for myself, but just because I don't see women in major leadership roles I feel in anyway superior, for they are fellow heirs of grace. Nor do I envy those that are in leadership roles for their judgement will be greater. Also, I do not believe that removing women from leadership roles eliminates half the potential rivals. Men have a tendency of being more obsessive and as a result more ambitious (generally speaking). Not saying women would not be a threat to WL but I do not think they pose the same type of threat as men. So I personally do not think the reasoning or deduction is that valid.

Now concerning PL. I'm not sure why PL was even allowed to work there to begin with. But yes, speaking up is necessary, and PL seemed to have refused any kind of correction so it should have just been reported directly to the authorities. But more importantly, how do we create an environment today that is loving and forgiving, but also allow us to properly deal with sins and darkness. Because surely, it is not a problem that is exclusive to LC. These problems plague humanity because it is something that is inherent and not just that, Satan is working behind the scenes developing complex systems to bring in darkness.

From your writing, it seems to me there is a generational difference between you and I. A lot of what I have heard and see seems watered down and a bit adjusted. So I do not have as strong a feeling to go against everything that is in the LC or LSM. But I understand the dark history of LSM and LC and the gravity of the situation today. Which is why I am compelled to remain here. Not to remain quiet or passive, but to lead by example according to His grace.