Ravi Zacharias - "What Ravi did and Where Where Do We Go From Here"

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi, I am an occasional follower of this site and if it's ok, I would like the grace to ask some questions. I haven't watched the video yet, so also, forgive me if what I am about to ask is addressed clearly in the video. And please don't read too deeply into my questions, as I have been doing a lot of prayer and soul-searching concerning the Ravi situation and this is just one part of the process of me going before the Lord in this matter.

While I think what Ravi did was disgusting and horrendous, can you guys tell me exactly what you're ultimately saying concerning his salvation (i.e. wolf versus sheep)? I'm reading comments such as the one in reference to Judas Iscariot, and the comments from "Trapped", and the reference to 1 John 3:8-10, etc...and am wondering if you all are saying that Ravi was never truly a regenerated believer.

If this is indeed what you're saying, what exactly would be the reasons? Is it the essence of what 1 John 3:8-10 says in terms of habitual sin?

I just find myself having a hard time with the overall theme of this thread. Again, I am not trying to downplay or excuse Ravi's grievous acts, just trying to understand if you're all suggesting Ravi was one big imposter who is not in the Lord's presence ("heaven") right now.

Thank you.

Hi Occasional Follower,

The question you raise is one that was recently discussed briefly on the former Alt-views forum (regarding sin after salvation....or sin after what appears to be salvation), so the record of that discussion isn't around anymore. But it's a good question, and relevant for all of us. I'm not sure I can drill down and make a confident claim, but I can tell you the portions of scripture that come to mind, and maybe in sum those portions will say enough.

The first thing that comes to mind is Matthew 18. In Matthew 18 Jesus tells us the way to deal with sins or offenses in the church. It's the "three strikes and you're out" rule. If you go directly to the offending party, and they refuse to hear, then widen the circle. If the widened circle goes to the offending party and they refuse to hear, then widen the circle even more to include the church. If the offending party still refuses to hear even the church.....you are to treat that offender as a pagan and a tax collector. Tax collectors were just about the most hated, reviled people in that day. In other words, treat someone who sins and knows it and doesn't repent as if they are not in the church, as if they are an unbeliever. Why? Well, my guess is that it's because they actually ARE an unbeliever!

In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul deals with a situation with some arguable similarities here, at least in the sense of a repeatedly sexually immoral person. His comments are things like:

-"Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?"
-"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—[in the church]"
-"But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."
-“Expel the wicked person from among you.”

In other words, for the unrepentant habitual sinner - get the dude out of the church. He has no place in the church. And if you're not part of the church, what are you? Well......I would call that an unbeliever. It's not until 2 Corinthians 2 that we see the sexually immoral man was brought back into the church due to his "excessive sorrow". (verse 7: Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.) In other words, due to his genuine and sincere repentance. So he was repentant, and if a brother repents of their sin, then we know they are a believer. For unrepentant habitual sinners, that's not a believer. And Paul tells them to reaffirm their love for the repentant man. In other words, yes, love covers all......but it doesn't cover a hardened heart. The New Testament is replete with calls for repentance in order to receive forgiveness.

And then we've got 1 John 3:8-10 as you mentioned that others brought up. Since we all know that we DO sin even after our genuine salvation, I have always understood this portion to refer to habitual sin, or walking in sin, or having a sin-characterized life. If you read Bible commentaries, they all seem to agree similarly.

Unfortunately, all the signs from the independent investigation commissioned by RZIM point to Ravi walking in sexual abuse and manipulation, habitually, intentionally, repeatedly. They point to someone who did not repent, but instead knew exactly what he was doing and covered it up and lied about it. And they point to someone who used his position and gravitas of a "Christian" minister to manipulate and control and groom women to the point he had them pray with him to thank God for the "gift" (of extra-marital, abusive sexual relations) He was about to give both of them. In one case he told the women to keep quiet or else the salvation of millions of souls would be on her head. This is blatant spiritual, sexual, and emotional abuse. And he knew what he was doing.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

It's an important discussion, and I certainly don't have all the answers. If you have more thoughts or questions about it, I don't think this is a discussion to shy away from.....we're all ears.

Trapped