Awoken

Awoken · 12-21-2020, 09:33 AM

Sorry for the harsh words. I had a 3/4 year period of falling away from the Lord and eventually He pulled me out of it in a very strong way. My church experience has pretty much entirely been with the LCs and the ones I met with are honestly my "church family", so when I came back to the Lord, I had the thought in my head that I really needed to get back to the church. I did, which I think was actually very good, but at that point I also felt I wanted to repent of ever doubting all the Witness Lee/LC dogma. Now that I have been back in for some time I'm realizing there is still a problem in the LCs, so I'm sorry for the harsh words earlier. UntoHim, thank you for the kind reply.

Having some good fellowship recently with a brother who used to be in the LCs and was once a "church kid". It is honestly really hard for me to tackle the idea of how to meet with other Christians. A lot of stuff in Christianity still seems very "fake" to me, I guess that is part of the reason why the LCs appealed to me in the first place. Most "Christian" music for example is just terrible, I despise it. It sounds unholy.

But, I guess it is what it is. I just want to find a group of believers with genuine hearts for God who want to meet together and follow Jesus according to the Holy Spirit. And I also don't believe in throwing everything from my LC experience away; a lot of it was very good. It's just the part where you follow the teachings of man instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the idolization of Lee, that needs to be dealt with...

Ohio · 12-21-2020, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Sorry for the harsh words.

Thanks for the follow up, Awoken.

Pray the Lord Jesus will bless your journey.

Awoken · 12-21-2020, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for the follow up, Awoken.

Pray the Lord Jesus will bless your journey.

Thanks brother. Grace to you!

Nell · 12-21-2020, 01:23 PM

Hi Awoken,

Welcome back.

I have a theory on "finding a church". Once we "find" Jesus, and get to know Him, and hear Him speak, and obey Him, "church" will find us. In many areas of life, we tend to put the cart before the horse. Pursue Jesus first. That's what's important...I think.

Blessings to you, and again, welcome back.

Nell

Sons to Glory! · 12-21-2020, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Sorry for the harsh words. I had a 3/4 year period of falling away from the Lord and eventually He pulled me out of it in a very strong way. My church experience has pretty much entirely been with the LCs and the ones I met with are honestly my "church family", so when I came back to the Lord, I had the thought in my head that I really needed to get back to the church. I did, which I think was actually very good, but at that point I also felt I wanted to repent of ever doubting all the Witness Lee/LC dogma. Now that I have been back in for some time I'm realizing there is still a problem in the LCs, so I'm sorry for the harsh words earlier. UntoHim, thank you for the kind reply.

Having some good fellowship recently with a brother who used to be in the LCs and was once a "church kid". It is honestly really hard for me to tackle the idea of how to meet with other Christians. A lot of stuff in Christianity still seems very "fake" to me, I guess that is part of the reason why the LCs appealed to me in the first place. Most "Christian" music for example is just terrible, I despise it. It sounds unholy.

But, I guess it is what it is. I just want to find a group of believers with genuine hearts for God who want to meet together and follow Jesus according to the Holy Spirit. And I also don't believe in throwing everything from my LC experience away; a lot of it was very good. It's just the part where you follow the teachings of man instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the idolization of Lee, that needs to be dealt with...

Ditto on what Nell said - He is the Faithful One! On a couple definite occasions, when I've prayed strongly for the Lord to take me to be with Christians who really love and seek Him in a pure & new covenant way, He has been faithful to those prayers! He knows where you should be, and will guide you there. And while I certainly know what you mean by many Christian groups not being "on the mark" in various things, I have been made more and more aware over time that the Lord does indeed have many such believers and groups scattered all around. It is an error spoken in darkness to say (as the LC does), "There's nothing good out there, so don't look!" as referring to other Christians. But like our life in Christ, where we should be may be a little hidden from view. He knows and sees the hidden, and is faithful in the right time to guide someone who prays to Him and has a little patience.

Let me also add, that as much as I prefer a certain way to fellowship and to meet (don't we all!), I have been blessed in my travels to be with different groups of believers who meet in differing denominational formats and various ways. And the Lord has been teaching me to put away my "discerning antena" when being with other groups. He's taught me that being critical of other believers is a sure-fire way to quench the Spirit of oneness. I have definitely had the sense that the Spirit was not pleased whenever I would get into this critical mode about other believers and their practices! I thank Him I'm much more sensitive to this, through repeated teaching moments by the Anointing.

HERn · 12-21-2020, 03:51 PM

Hi Awoken!

Glad you have checked in, but sad for your angst! It's OK to hate contemporary Christian music, most of us grew up hating what our parents hated. Your spiritual parents were probably the LC blendeds and elders and heaven knows how much they hated!

Just wondering what the saints did that made you want to recant your initial leaving of the LC and made you want to return? Also, would you want to elaborate on the why and how on your leaving the LC a second time?

It would be healthy if you could get to the point where you don't perceive all non-LC Christians to be fake in their worship. Some probably are, but that's no different that the scads of LC church kids that have very effectively learned to fake being in, turning to, and expressing their spirit.

I too have been on a quest of trying to figure out how much to throw out.

Hoping you find peace, happiness, and contentment.

HERn

Awoken · 12-23-2020, 10:02 AM

Kind of a long story, HERn. I went through some very difficult experiences where my life pretty much fell apart (was my fault). After coming back to the Lord I felt I needed to reconnect with other Christians strongly, I believe that was a genuine leading from the Holy Spirit. It's also why I think there are still many genuine believers in the LCs, when I reconnected with some brothers after that I did feel there was really a kind of washing and renewal that took place.

On an interesting aside, my wife and I were doing some research today regarding an upcoming vacation and somehow stumbled across an article about Johnny Appleseed in the process, as we will be passing by where his grave is located in Fort Wayne. Turns out he was also involved in some kind of religion that sounds weirdly close to the Recovery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ne...(Swedenborgian). This seems like it could be a discussion all on its own, haha...

Anyway, one thing I'm really wondering about is Christmas. 'Tis the season and whatnot, however, to be honest I don't have any desire to practice Christmas really. I'm still pretty mixed up regarding what I think about all kinds of different practices among different groups and I'm not sure I feel comfortable with it or not. When I was a kid I really bought into the whole Santa Claus bit and when I found out that was all a lie it really shook me up and made me feel discouraged. Not sure I want to really take any part in perpetuating that kind of nonsense (no offense to anybody who respects this particular holiday, this is just my own feeling about it).

Nell · 12-23-2020, 01:40 PM

Hi Awoken,

As for Christmas, we get to decide for ourselves. The problem surfaces when others try to tell us what to do.

Romans 14:5-6 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Nell

Nell · 12-26-2020, 12:12 PM

I might get in trouble here, but this is too good not to share with Awoken. ☃️

Norman Oklahoma Transcript Christmas Story, 1965
EDITOR’S NOTE: This story, originally published in 1965, is published on Christmas Day each year.

A preschool version of the Christmas Story, complete with more than a few last minute improvisations, unfolded before a delighted audience at the First Presbyterian Church Sunday night.

The pageant of the Nativity, presented by members of the Cherub and Chapel choirs, in general had proceeded well at dress rehearsal, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, wise men and other 4- and 5-year-olds in the cast had run more or less smoothly through their assigned parts. The Chapel Choir and a narrator provided the background, and except for minor entanglements with flowing robes and headdresses, few problems were encountered.

Then the Big Night arrived.
The first hint of trouble came even before the formal action opened when one of the younger members of the Cherub Choir, a boy of about 2, took a fancy to the doll representing the infant Jesus lying in the manger. Clambering on stage he made a beeline for the crib and was diverted from his goal only by the action of an alert father.

The innkeeper, exhibiting a lively proprietary interest in the stable, practiced leaping about the freshly strewn hay until the arrival of Mary and Joseph, whom he escorted proudly to seats beside the crib.

The shepherds and white robed angels arrived soon after. and it was then that the young Cherub, perhaps encouraged by his part as one of the children come to adore the Christ child, decided on another try for the object of his affections in the manger.

He squeezed his way through the crowd, grabbed the doll and lifted it from the crib. Mary, reacting like any mother, made a lunge for the swaddling clothes, and a tug of war ensued above the manger.

Joseph, stunned for a moment, gallantly came to Mary’s aid with a swing at the intruder. and the innkeeper, proving not a bad sort after all, picked up a handful of hay and threw it at the would be abductor.

The arrival of the harried father, towering some three feet above the rest of the cast, restored peace momentarily.

But it was the hay, omitted during dress rehearsal, that caused the eventual downfall. Piled liberally about the tiled floor, it proved a lumpy and slippery footing. One of the shepherds, head bowed above the manger, suddenly went down. He scrambled up and immediately plopped down again. The third time he fell he grabbed the innkeeper; the innkeeper bumped an angel and half the cast toppled like a row of dominoes.

But the hay proved a soft cushion — fun to dive into, in fact. Soon the shepherd and innkeeper were competing in swan dives into the straw. A wise man scuffled with an angel whose gilded wings had slipped considerably below their proper place. The Cherub, once more eluding his father, tried unsuccessfully to wrest a crook away from one of the shepherds.

The narrator and choir, unfazed by the commotion, continued like troupers to the end; the cast was enticed offstage and peace once more returned to the somewhat disarranged stable.

One spectator, his voice still trembling with laughter, was heard to remark as he left the church:

“I’m glad I read the Book, ‘cause they sure changed the plot!”

Nell

awareness · 01-01-2021, 11:02 AM

Awoken, stand strong. I went thru a similar process back around 1980. I eventually got the boot. I'm so happy about that that I tried to reach the elder to thank him.

There is life after the LC, and after Lee and Nee.

P.S. you should look into Lily Hsu's testimony about Nee in her book :
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church by Lily M. Hsu, M.D. with Dana Roberts M.A., M.T.S.
https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta.../dp/1625099401

There's also a thread on it out here :
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...table+Memories

Harold
----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Hi fellow Christians,

I'm a Christian currently living in the northeast. I am, at least for now, still (at least from others' viewpoint no doubt) active in the LC, since I am just beginning to wake up from a serious belief in LC dogma and am still trying to get on my feet spiritually. After some experiences that whacked me over the head and woke me up enough to start seriously considering my surroundings, I started to do a lot of research on past LC history (including reading "A Thread of Gold", various testimonies from prominent ex-members, etc). I will, to the best of my ability, give my own short testimony below, awkward as it may be (this will probably be really long-winded, but I feel a need to put this down in words somewhere, sorry!).

Robert · 01-01-2021, 04:08 PM

Having some good fellowship recently with a brother who used to be in the LCs and was once a "church kid". It is honestly really hard for me to tackle the idea of how to meet with other Christians. A lot of stuff in Christianity still seems very "fake" to me, I guess that is part of the reason why the LCs appealed to me in the first place. Most "Christian" music for example is just terrible, I despise it. It sounds unholy.

But, I guess it is what it is. I just want to find a group of believers with genuine hearts for God who want to meet together and follow Jesus according to the Holy Spirit. And I also don't believe in throwing everything from my LC experience away; a lot of it was very good. It's just the part where you follow the teachings of man instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the idolization of Lee, that needs to be dealt with...[/QUOTE]

Hi, Awoken! I found this forum recently. I read you testimony. I met LC sister today and few saints few days ago. I would like encourage You and discourage You. Not every feeling You learn from past is wrong. According christian music You can have Your personal experience what was sung from heart and spirit and what not. The same song can be performed in spiritual way and in sinful and fleshly way. This is my experience and no body can tell you how to recognize. Of course there are some basic rules like I do not believe that christian heavy metal is used by God. And similar types too. There must be separation from world. So do not throw away all Your spiritual experience. Now I will discourage You: do not seek "group". I can not tell You what plan God has for You, but I gave up and I pray only for leading for each day. Do not worry were You go and participate next week. Wake up, praise the Lord and go on! If there is any christian group that You can stand some not biblical practices like clapping hand for acceptation what leader or pastor said, or siting, standing or kneeling after command then is good. You will never find ideal group that is why I gave up. I am seeking person, couple, day, hour, moment that God will give me to be built together. That is it. I wish You God's leading in Holly Spirit, but less You expect, with more You will be surprised! Relay on God. I left LC but I have contact with some of them. We can share with some experience here, we can see heresies they preach, but if we have no real leading of our Shepherd Jesus Christ then we will make the same mistake. Take it this way: be focused on positive things. If God had mercy on You and gave you opportunity to see what is wrong, then do not look back and go ahead! Be prepared for loneliness and being not understood. This is the end of times. read Bible as often as You can! Then nobody will deceive You. Remember, brothers in LC are still brothers! They have may be 98% of truths from ancient brothers. If You are invited to good party but guys are not so good company for You, then You take what is good on table and disappear... I can testify, that beside few heresies and general lack of real Holly Spirit leading ( may be not everywhere) They have good teaching. We can judge movement and teaching but not saint we do not know. So I try to contact some of them and see If God will give us good time and fellowship. There is no rule. I know and I hope to visit few saint in Pentacostal church. I wish to have such a saints in LC. And there are... some. So You see, that God knows who is honest and real Christ follower. Just find this feeling in your spirit. Jesus promised this in John 14. He will teach You and me what is sin, what is world, what is His will. I try to read every day. I was not so faithful last 30 years, but holly Spirit can use it now as He wants. When i hear some sermons of Ron Or Minoru I can recognize when they preach false doctrines. I think LC is not different than any other denomination. You can find really lovely saints reading bible and simply blind followers of man ready to kill You with Word of God. You can feel it during meeting. God bless You and may be I comment more soon.

aron · 01-02-2021, 03:11 AM

Regarding Christian music, I really can't stand it. I think I'll break out in a rash if I'm forced to listen to it. Needless to say, that impinges on my ability to sit in, or participate in, a Christian meeting.

Now, I'm not judging a Christian singer, or composer, or group, or theology. I'm not saying that they are somehow morally my inferior. I'm just saying that I'm allergic to Christian music. I'm allergic to CCM and old timey Protestant hymns. Never been exposed to any other music because I grew up Baptist, went to the LC, then back to Protestantism.

The reason I don't like it is twofold: either it is about the singer, "Me and my Jesus", or it's about theology, and the singer is explaining to God, through the words of the song, what is and should be. The idea of creation explaining to the Creator how things are or ought to be, strikes me as odd to the extreme. So I don't want to participate.

And the "Me, me, me" contemporary Christian music I like even less. It's not about you, it's about Jesus. Your life is a vapour (Ja 4:14) - Jesus is the King of Creation, perfected forever. I go with Jesus. Sorry but to impose my feelings and lacks through song is a waste of my time and an imposition on others'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

A lot of stuff in Christianity still seems very "fake" to me, I guess that is part of the reason why the LCs appealed to me in the first place. Most "Christian" music for example is just terrible, I despise it. It sounds unholy.

Christianity is a mess. But it's family. My big, dysfunctional family. I don't like most of what they do, but they are still family.

My consolation and encouragement is in the Psalms. Paul twice wrote the NT believers to sing Psalms. James also encouraged this. Here is my recommendation. Go to the Youtube, start digging.
Jason Coghill
Charles Pettee and Folkpsalm
Sons of Korah
etc
etc
etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X36jVGXuA

I'm not an exclusive psalms-only cultist - 'everyone but me is damned' - just taking consolation and encouragement where I find it, after a dry time (and Paul does encourage it!)

Another, below: word-for-word KJV. The piano's well done, setting up the sung text but not overpowering it away. It knows where to step up, where to back off. The music supports the word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJj-rAnfUX8

"I lay me down and slept/I waked for the LORD sustained me" sounds a lot like "I have the power to lay my life down/the power to raise it up". Jesus said, "These things were written about me". Not about Suzie and Joe in Fairmont Bible Church. To me, there's a big difference, both if focus and in effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DehkKX2Kn-g

The subject of Psalm 91 is Jesus. The NT makes this utterly clear.

And then Psalm 139, presented below: we can Google translate so Dutch language don't obstruct our worship... the music carries us into the Word, and the Word brings us to God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxHINji3eDs

Robert · 01-02-2021, 12:50 PM

Hi, "Aron"! I am sorry but I learn how to operate on platform with quoting etc.
First two paragraphs was quote from "awoken". It was not my words. However I assume that we talk about the same things. It is just a matter of knowledge of Christ and separation soul from the spirit Some times after 20 years You can discover that You can not digest in Your spirit ( which should be one with Holly Spirit) some song or singers. To judge spiritual things we have to use spirit. Of coures there is a place for singing from heart with all Your soul! God wants to save and have on His own our souls. But as I mentioned there is allways some source. The matter of music is really secondary. God will not judge us by music we were listining to. But mature in inner man brther or sister will recognize source and spiritual food. Judge by fruits. Observe if music makes You more soulish or redirect you to the spirit. The tool is your ear and soul like filter. But where You end? I agree with You, that we have to praise God, His creation etc. We can write and write using many words. But as I said counts fruits. I undrstand taht I can meet saints from many denominations here and with different taste. But I hope all we have one direction: to be perfected and encouraged to know better and better Jesus Christ. It is not a matter of good or evil but feeling life and if this or that is pushing me more to seek Heavenly Kingdom.
Today I spoke to one sister. I said too much probably. When I gave her picture of bird fed by mother bird and describing that we can not eat what brother Lee was "vomiting" ( in positive way like a bird) then she broke phone call. Let it be. Without Gods Light we are blind and have only our experience interprated by our knowledge. But when we come to Jesus, we can ask what Hi things about it. So it is not a matter of following after man or opinion but after God's heart! It is not about what I like or not or about preferences! There is a real spiritual source. When I saw Amharic singers Schebschewa or something like that I jaust asked brother from Ethiopia for translation. He confirmed words. I just exercised my soul and spirit! I saw that they are simply and singing they really worship God. Later I met other Amharic songs but my feeling was strong, that performer was pretending prayer and made just show. I can not describe it but there is reality in which God caan confirm source. If we can not recognize source then any first teacher can deceive us using very good expolnation and God's Word. My sheeps know my voice. Little bit long as for small matter, but ther are very dangerious hypnotic ministries. But, this is subject for new beleivers. I hope, that many of us here have these lessons behind. But rule is the same: watch HOW you listing! Not WHAT! We have to discern spirits. God Bless You!

Sons to Glory! · 01-02-2021, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Today I spoke to one sister. I said too much probably. When I gave her picture of bird fed by mother bird and describing that we can not eat what brother Lee was "vomiting" ( in positive way like a bird) then she broke phone call. Let it be. Without Gods Light we are blind and have only our experience interprated by our knowledge.

This is an example of someone focused on a ministry and not Christ. When we focus on a particular ministry, then we start taking that as our position of oneness. So if someone is speaking things in line with that ministry we are following, then we feel "one" with that person. And if something spoken is not in line with the ministry, then fellowship tends to get broken. So we do have to be very careful not to get all "in the tank" for this or that ministry, no matter how good it seems. It is, of course, our natural proclivity do just that (as in 1 Cor. 1:12), and we must look to Him to Shephard us accordingly.

Robert · 01-02-2021, 03:14 PM

I do agree! I do not give up wit this sister. I wrote a sms to her hoping she will come to light. I can testify ( without giving names) that I take a blessing from God fro many brothers in other denominations. there is no rule. He hes faithful servants in Pentacostal Church, Baptist Church, some other over-denominational churches. this is kind of relief to see the same conclusion. Is it not beautiful to see the same Lord in other brothers even they have low teaching, wrong practices etc? And so what? I still learn how to listen my Lord. yesterday I had experience of death. One sister, my wife and I in one moment. She mentioned about Hunk and his attack and I wanted add something ( this sister is in LC) and then she said she does not want to listing to it. But ok, I still appreciate feeling in body more than explanation about JI. That was good experience however negative. I miss meetings. The worst thing is, that really LR have good practice of sharing, oneness and functioning which we nowhere can find. Even today my wife was listening two hours sermon of one brother. Common! I would fall in sleep! Good things, but... too much in one piece! Much better is when in one hour three brothers have three sermons. And best is, hen Holly Spirit is leading and use many. But ok, thanks for response.

Nell · 01-03-2021, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Regarding Christian music, I really can't stand it. I think I'll break out in a rash if I'm forced to listen to it. Needless to say, that impinges on my ability to sit in, or participate in, a Christian meeting.

Now, I'm not judging a Christian singer, or composer, or group, or theology. I'm not saying that they are somehow morally my inferior. I'm just saying that I'm allergic to Christian music. I'm allergic to CCM and old timey Protestant hymns. Never been exposed to any other music because I grew up Baptist, went to the LC, then back to Protestantism.

Well, Aron,

I sure am glad you're not judging a Christian singer, or composer, or group, or theology...not saying that they are somehow morally your inferior. It sure feels like to me you are a bit judgy. You really hit on a nerve here.

You may have noticed the forum topic Praise/Worship Songs! Turn Up Your Speakers!? Some of us enjoy Christian music. I would like to further encourage others to click the link and give Christian music a try...

Here is an amazing testimony of Fanny J. Crosby, an American Hymn writer who was also blind.

"Frances Jane (Fanny) Crosby (1820-1915), American hymn writer and poetess who wrote over 8,000 hymns.

Once a preacher sympathetically remarked, "I think it is a great pity that the Master did not give you sight when He showered so many other gifts upon you."

She replied quickly, "Do you know that if at birth I had been able to make one petition, it would have been that I should be born blind?" "Why?" asked the surprised minister. "Because when I get to heaven, the first face that shall ever gladden my sight will be that of my Savior!"

I grew up a Baptist too. My experience with Christian music was/is the Southern Gospel genre which you have also disparaged...I assume the phrase "old timey Protestant hymns" might refer to Southern Gospel too.

As a child, I woke up on Sunday mornings to the sound of my father singing along with the Statesman Quartet on TV and conducting the music along with them. I covered my head with a pillow then. Now, I smile.

My 4 sisters and I grew up singing Southern Gospel together...to the delight of my parents. We all played piano and sang. My SisterA had 4 children (2 boys, 2 girls) who grew up singing together as a quartet. ChildA continued her music education at the University of North Texas school of music and teaches piano to this day, teaching her granddaughters to play piano. ChildB grew up to be a professional Southern Gospel singer. ChildB has a daughter of her own who's singinging voice sounds amazingly like her mother's.

So I'm up to...what...four generations of singers in one family? We weren't anything special. We were given a gift commonly called "family harmony". (Sometimes, on occasion, it's the only harmony we had in the family ...standing at the piano and singing together!)

I know…I know…you’re not judging me and my family experiences with Christian music. You don't have to like it. I would just encourage you not to discourage others from giving Christian music a try. Just because you can’t stand it…don’t ruin it for others.

Christian music has "evolved" from the days of the Old Testament singers. People of different times and places have changed Christian music, and indeed all forms of music, to meet their own needs, inspiration and walks with God. I don't care for a lot of the styles of Christian music, but God meets people where they are. Not where the whims of other Christians may carry them.

Jus sayin’...

Nell

aron · 01-03-2021, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I know…I know…you’re not judging me and my family experiences with Christian music. You don't have to like it. I would just encourage you not to discourage others from giving Christian music a try. Just because you can’t stand it…don’t ruin it for others.

Sorry if my negativity ruins anyone's enjoyment of Christian song, but I read the statement of the OP and agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

It is honestly really hard for me to tackle the idea of how to meet with other Christians. A lot of stuff in Christianity still seems very "fake" to me, I guess that is part of the reason why the LCs appealed to me in the first place. Most "Christian" music for example is just terrible, I despise it. It sounds unholy...

I also really struggle with Christian music, for the reasons I mentioned. Let me give an example: Fanny Crosby, and her song, "Blessed assurance"

"This is my story/this is my song" It is Fanny Crosby's story, her song. Yes she's praising her Saviour all the day long, but it's still her story and song. The NT has several hundred clear referents to Jesus being the Messiah/Christ promised by the prophets in scripture, what we call the OT. There's not one single mention of Fanny Crosby.

Probably a third of those NT referents are from Psalms, which: 1) as inspired, subjective poetry was the gateway and framework to the experiences of the Christ; and 2) as the sung narrative of the Jewish faith was imprinted in the hearts and minds of them all. "Then his disciples remembered, 'Zeal of Thy [the Father] house has eaten me [the Christ] up'". How could they remember it if they didn't already know it? In Psalm 69 text, John the NT disciple saw the framework of the relationship of the Son with the Father: the zeal, the obedience, the joy, the love, the delight, the blessing of resurrection and enthronement. Through his reception of OT text, John recognized it, acknowledged it, and began to enter in. But the focus was not on John's entering in, but on Jesus' already-established position. The focus was NOT on John's experiences, but on Jesus'.

It is Jesus' story, his song. It is his 'perfect submission', not hers or mine or yours.

And yet all that has been lost as we focus on Martin Luther's experiences or John Wesley's experiences. And if that wasn't bad enough, it became a gateway to Witness Lee's experiences, his "subjective Christ" who often had absolutely nothing to do with the Jesus portrayed in great detail in scriptural text.

Of course it's possible that I'm having an "immune response", a spiritual rash of sorts, from the excesses of Protestantism and post-Protestantism - The LC of Witness Lee - and that in the future I'll write differently. But probably there are some like 'awoken' who are having the same issues that I am, and so I spoke to that. And their solutions may be different and I respect that as well. I only mention that it is possible to find consolation, out there, in "Christianity". One simply has to look, and be persistent... "seek and ye shall find"... and I respect Fanny Crosby's poetry, it just doesn't do much for me anymore. But that may be as much about me as about Ms Crosby.

Robert · 01-04-2021, 03:11 PM

To Nell and aron.
I do not know how to make a quote on blue back ground to reply certain sentences. Any way, I do agree with You aron and with Nell as well!
I have both experiences and I can understand both of you. I can also encourage to try many type of Christian music. As I mentioned before, I tasted Amharic songs, I like very much S country gospel songs, old hymns, hymns from LR, and some other. But, I do really agree with Aron and I am glad that You have some discern of what they sining about and in what spirit. I like to listen acapella and some quartets. But our soul is one thing ( there is a place for kind a relax in our life) and spirit is another. It is good to have this recognition. As You said, sometimes there is strong feeling that song is reaching only mic and ceiling but not heaven. That is what I like.
And let mi give You my beloved "prayer/story/song" by Jim Reeves. Whenever I hear this song I cry. This will be my answer to both of You. Can we sing from within our hearts? Can we recognize if other sing from heart too?
I think this is possible in spirit and love. When we read Bible then we can have proper spiritual sens of things around us. This not only a matter of what we like or not. This is a matter of source and content.
God bless You all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUsrfM4PP_8

Awoken · 01-06-2021, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

I do agree! I do not give up wit this sister. I wrote a sms to her hoping she will come to light. I can testify ( without giving names) that I take a blessing from God fro many brothers in other denominations. there is no rule. He hes faithful servants in Pentacostal Church, Baptist Church, some other over-denominational churches. this is kind of relief to see the same conclusion. Is it not beautiful to see the same Lord in other brothers even they have low teaching, wrong practices etc? And so what? I still learn how to listen my Lord. yesterday I had experience of death. One sister, my wife and I in one moment. She mentioned about Hunk and his attack and I wanted add something ( this sister is in LC) and then she said she does not want to listing to it. But ok, I still appreciate feeling in body more than explanation about JI. That was good experience however negative. I miss meetings. The worst thing is, that really LR have good practice of sharing, oneness and functioning which we nowhere can find. Even today my wife was listening two hours sermon of one brother. Common! I would fall in sleep! Good things, but... too much in one piece! Much better is when in one hour three brothers have three sermons. And best is, hen Holly Spirit is leading and use many. But ok, thanks for response.

Brother,

I'd advise you to start doing some research on house churches. The LR is not the only place you can find "each one has" in a functioning way. I've been meeting lately with some saints led by a brother who left the LC and is now meeting in a house church, they are very much functioning according to the Bible. Here's a good YouTube video about some other non-LC-related Christians doing this same thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qheANo68eo

Awoken · 01-06-2021, 08:26 AM

Aron -

Yeah I definitely get where you're coming from. There are still a lot of types of Christian music I struggle enjoying. Thanks for the info on the Psalm-singing, I will check that out! I really enjoy hearing people singing the pure word and the Psalms.

One thing that I think is good to keep in mind is that while David was writing his psalms, yes it was all about Jesus, but it WAS also all about David personally, what he was feeling/thinking, what he was going through. We do need personal experiences of Jesus and we need that to be our personal story with God, maybe that will help you to moderate your views a little as I'm also struggling to try to do. I think David is an amazing model for us (inasmuch as he had a great relationship with God), a lot of his Psalms are actually just his actively complaining and grumbling to the Lord about his circumstances, lol. But he had an honest and refreshing walk with God that God obviously appreciated enough to put in His book. While we are not God, God did look on His creation and say "very good" in Genesis...

Anyway, I have been trying to listen to some other stuff that is not LC-generated but still seems "pure" to me, here's one track I found today that I've been liking a lot -
https://soundcloud.com/hannahbergie/trust-and-obey-hymn

Sons to Glory! · 01-06-2021, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Brother, I'd advise you to start doing some research on house churches. The LR is not the only place you can find "each one has" in a functioning way. I've been meeting lately with some saints led by a brother who left the LC and is now meeting in a house church, they are very much functioning according to the Bible. Here's a good YouTube video about some other non-LC-related Christians doing this same thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qheANo68eo

Thanks much for sharing that video - awesome! The home-based ekklesia is something flying very much under the radar. Since there is no central organization, man cannot control it. Much more organic and like the wind!

As I've mentioned on other threads (see "New Book by Henry Hon" thread - about the home-based ekklesia) this type of simple gathering is something that is apart from denominations, including the LC. The LC didn't like how independent the home gatherings were in the Bay Area, and tried to subject their ministry control over them (resulting in Henry leaving the LC). These days I think we may see more and more believers moving away from the ministry controlled churches and into these types of more informal, organic gatherings.

Awoken · 01-06-2021, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks much for sharing that video - awesome! The home-based ekklesia is something flying very much under the radar. Since there is no central organization, man cannot control it. Much more organic and like the wind!

As I've mentioned on other threads (see "New Book by Henry Hon" thread - about the home-based ekklesia) this type of simple gathering is something that is apart from denominations, including the LC. The LC didn't like how independent the home gatherings were in the Bay Area, and tried to subject their ministry control over them. These days I think we may see more and more believers moving away from the ministry controlled churches.

Amen! Thanks StG. Here is another great video, my wife and I watched this the other day. I don't know if we will end up contacting this ministry yet but it may be helpful to someone here who is seeking a Bible-believing way to practice church. House church-starting resource video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwq8WnY5rQY

(Disclaimer: I do not know extensively about this ministry at this time so be cautious as you would/should with anything, but the brother in the video seems sincere. One thing I find very promising is his enthusiasm for helping even people who don't want to join his ministry.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

P.S. you should look into Lily Hsu's testimony about Nee in her book :

Man, I looked at that thread... Seems like a dumpster fire, haha.

Sons to Glory! · 01-06-2021, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Amen! Thanks StG. Here is another great video, my wife and I watched this the other day. I don't know if we will end up contacting this ministry yet but it may be helpful to someone here who is seeking a Bible-believing way to practice church. House church-starting resource video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwq8WnY5rQY

(Disclaimer: I do not know extensively about this ministry at this time so be cautious as you would/should with anything, but the brother in the video seems sincere. One thing I find very promising is his enthusiasm for helping even people who don't want to join his ministry.)

Another good video regarding the house church gatherings and how organic they are (I really liked his inference about needing new wineskins)! I see two basic models of home gatherings emerging . . . one model is gatherings being promoted by established churches/ministries; the other is the idea that it shouldn't be part of any particular ministry. That way the "oneness" is not contingent upon aligning with a particular ministry/person/church.

Robert · 01-06-2021, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Brother,

I'd advise you to start doing some research on house churches. The LR is not the only place you can find "each one has" in a functioning way. I've been meeting lately with some saints led by a brother who left the LC and is now meeting in a house church, they are very much functioning according to the Bible. Here's a good YouTube video about some other non-LC-related Christians doing this same thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qheANo68eo

Thanks for advise!
For me in my age and with m experience with my Lord it is not a matter of research. In bible there was no www. Simply God wasleading and gathering his people.For now I am happy for each contact, fellowship in any way. Eather by internet or, phonecall or personal contact with saints. So I am open for what God will give me and how he will lead me. I am focused on organic way. I try to have no expectation.
According this clip about home churches. This nothing new for me. This is exactly how called ones should meet. Just meet! If we verify word "church" (eklesia, called ones) and strongly reject popular meaning in this world, then spontaniously we will be free from denomination ( in our heart). It does not mean we have to leave denomination today. But just imagine what would happen if much more hearts were open and free of opinion and division in minor matters!
Much more WL and WN could achieve visiting all denominations and sharing importance of this or that! So they exactly repeated the same mistake what they were warning about in their books! They saw some division and matter of oneness. But they strted work on perfect way to gain this goal and put their hand to it.
Concluding: thanks for advise. I am open and still waiting how Lord Jesus will lead me.

P.S. I saw there in clip Francis Chan and his affirmating name in title. I would be also very thankful for clip or any news where he repented from many false teachings. And generally it is not about good or evil but feeling what is genuine. I have nothing against testimony, sermon or sharing. But making clip about honest and proper church life with few cameras like good quality advertisment? Even home churches can become "new ordered way". It most likely I will beleive in Your personal sharing here on forum than in clips like this. However I do believe that many christians need this "reformation". And as long this is not another movement that is ok. But unfortunately in case of Francis Chan it is. That is why I ask honestly if there is any prove of his growth and repentance. And another factor is that "charismatic" in bible is about man gifted by Holly Spirit. It is not about soulish man able to draw others ( to what? to idea?)

Awoken · 01-06-2021, 07:58 PM

Which teachings of Francis Chan are "false"? Searching YouTube I can only find some cherry-picked videos where somebody with a King James-only mindset tries to prove he preached a false gospel because he stated we should be obedient to the Lord/the Spirit.

Edit:
Yikes, just saw these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGl9...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFVv5-R7CJo

Robert · 01-07-2021, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Which teachings of Francis Chan are "false"? Searching YouTube I can only find some cherry-picked videos where somebody with a King James-only mindset tries to prove he preached a false gospel because he stated we should be obedient to the Lord/the Spirit.

Edit:
Yikes, just saw these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGl9...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFVv5-R7CJo

Thank You Awoken for these clips.
My spiritual "opinion" or rather discern is not based on outwordly things. This is the same like to recognize wine and water. Easy is not? But can You recognize certain type of wine? Can You discern spirits? Should we swallow all preachers just because they preach obvious things and somehow according to bible? Read bible more and more. The more we know Lord Jesus, the more we can discern and seperate leaven and hidden thought. Do You tink that all warnings was about discerning water from wine? Budda followers from christians? This is more subtle. World is full of "honest" christians. All his clips and ministry is kind a show. I do not buy it. And even in that clip You send me is again prove he went to far. I knoe this Witness Lee teaching about God-man. There is no need to develop what is in Bible. We do not know what we will be, but we know we will be like Him. That is it! Do not add anything, do not take off anything. Children of God|? Yes! God's creation? Yes! There is no need att all for this thought! People who are born again from God know all verses: abide in me! Just wait for me! I will come to take my property like owner of garden! There is no need to prove that we are the same as Christ! We are not! Hi was unique! There is no time here to explain all detailes. But we see in ICor 15.33-58 what is going on in us. And many many verses. If You mind is full of Bible then Holly Spirit can give You a sense of what is from God. The question is not what Francis says but why and what is the source. If he has some falss ideas in him in his mind then this hidden idea will be "visible" for spiritual man. I know several preachers who ended badly after receiving this idea. I see clearly this idea in Francis. He is not my brother in my neighborhood and not in my local church. So I am not proper member to go and correct him. I can only add some prayer hoping that God will change him. It is not about accusation but simply having sober mind and discerning spirits. And I can testify here my dear, that I get this strong feeling before I saw any critical clips (there was only two since yesterday). I am not so easy to manipulate. Sometimes even brothers making such a clips have not perfect attitude or use not perfect words. But yes, in clip You sent me is clear heresy. When You add leaven then bread is growing becoming false. Israel was committed to throw away all leaven. Just being honest and fully in truth! Truth is only Jesus. And we have to discern in our spirit if this or that preacher is speaking from his breath.

This the rule of invisible kingdom i follow after. Otherwise why we have warning about false teachers? None of his clips or sermons touched my spirit for now. Outwordly? Yes, in general he is correct. Generally bread contain also flour. Can You say that common bread you eat daily has no flour? It has. That is truth. Can You eat simply pan cake instead of normal known to as bread? In some countries the eat such a brad. If you ask them about bread they will give you pan cake! So by this we can unnderstand what was in OT about leaven and what was Jesus us about telling about leaven of pharisee. Every empty word or word blowing air into subject makes reality false! I will agree my dear with every word in Bible. But when You create some dogma and will add words, explonations and bla, bla, i will say stop! Live is so simply. Love God with all Your heart and You neighbor. Do and act according to New Man Jesus. Jesus was Last Adam. He said STOP. So where is Jesus? Do we know Him by flesh or by Spirit? I can not transfer my feeling to other members. "My sheep know my voice". I do not hear voice of Jesus in Francis' sharing ( teaching and preaching is said too much). Holding Bible in hand and quoting one or two times verses is no prove for me that he is right. I do not follow my eyes, dear.

And one more thing: Try to understand that reality is in our local churches. Not in clips or YT channels. Your brothers and sisters know you best. I do not know Francis personally, but fact is that there is few guys running around him recording clip. I do not buy it! I do not know any godly and mature preacher who can act this way. I can describe him as simply showman. For precious things God is preparing special vessels. He is talking about God, he makes a faces... Sorry, The more I write about it stronger feeling I get. World is full of such a preachers. This is our personal responsibility to know Jesus. Only this way we will be not deceived.

Awoken · 01-07-2021, 06:12 AM

Yeah brother, but the Bible also states that only some believers are given the gift of discernment of spirits (1 Corinth 12:10: "to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."). The rest of us have to develop that ability as much as we can. You may have a greater degree of that gift than most, for others it will take time, research, careful studying of the Scriptures (like the Bereans), etc.

Robert · 01-07-2021, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awoken

Yeah brother, but the Bible also states that only some believers are given the gift of discernment of spirits (1 Corinth 12:10: "to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."). The rest of us have to develop that ability as much as we can. You may have a greater degree of that gift than most, for others it will take time, research, careful studying of the Scriptures (like the Bereans), etc.

Yeah! And there is another verse saying "do not believe every spirit!" Would it be only to gifted ones? Nope! Remember that gift is not just for having it! What teacher of biology does? Is not his work to produce other biologists? What shepherding gift does? Is it only to produce pastors or just spread burden of nourishing saints? If You take word literally then You will receive religion and division. But if we take word as really life from God then for sure we will serve one to another. there was one brother who said about himself that he has such a gift. Do not ask me in what sect and cult he landed in. Let's say some saint will recognize That I have such a gift. and so what? I do not care about this recognition. It can be temporarily. Gift it self never should be in focus. I am not interested in putting my experience only into others mind. i would like to grow up and take from others what precious they have and give them what I have from the Lord. this is how ecclesia is building her self (Eph) . i do not quote many verse hoping that many saint do read Bible and spontaneously Lord in The Holly Spirit is teaching them. Another thread you put is generally in same subject: How we judge, or rather discern preachers, teachers and spirits. Sometimes I see older brothers in flesh but still far behind. Use argument of age but not having real experience or Bible knowledge. I am still small brother and there is a lot of to gain. We should not compare ourselves to others. But our experience is for Body of Christ.

And that is why I appreciate such a forum. I am not responsible who and what is doing in this world. I am not responsible for people I do not know. I am not pushing any one but sharing my experience in freedom. Do You think I would be where I am and what I see if not thousands brothers and sisters? Even brother who is wrong in teaching can be used as warning to me. Who knows when and how Lord will shine on him. I hope and do believe that You and him we want to believe the same Lord which is in scripture. There is only One Lord, One God and One Holly Spirit and One Faith. So why there is so many divisions? Is it not time to consider this before our Lord? It is not about what You hear but How! If I say very gently "I Love You" putting all my heart and my person into it, and some messenger will go and bring this message with bad and wrong attitude, he can say the same word shouting and giving a sense that I hate You or just waned to say this just fulfill requirement. If we do not come to the Lord reading a Bible then we will have only opinion and our limited understanding. That is why we need Body. others- called ones! So called church. Even now You can filter all what I said and receive filtered through by Your wounds, scares, experiences eater god or bad. But I hope ( and this is for me s) with open heart we will see by Holly Spirits work what is real attitude on another side in brother or sister. In human life it is easy to lie kids. they have no experience of life. But s more complicated to do with mature ones. Is not? So I am talking abut this. About spiritual tools. If we do not know Bible, whole Bible, then will be easy to deceive us.

HERn · 01-07-2021, 06:41 PM

Hi Robert, if you could break up your text into paragraphs with spaces it would be easier to read.

Chan wrote a book called "Letters to the Churches", which raised a red flag for me. Kind of reminded me of Rev 1:4 where Christ is the one who writes letters to the churches. Also, in a Sunday School class we read a book by Chan on the book of Mark. On almost every page there was a photo of him walking in the holy land. Too much emphasis on the man for me, but that's just me. I'm probably weird.

Robert · 01-08-2021, 03:23 AM

Thanks for advise! I am not so skilled writer especially English is not my mother language. I will pay more attention to it. Do not say about Yourself "probably weird". It is very good to discern things.
You got some feeling and sense about what You said.

Jehovah Witnesses also use fleshly and soulish tools to convict people to teaching or ideology. There is no need for pictures touching soul. This will only create false idea and reality in mind. This deception. It seems like You are involved in Chan's teaching if You read his books to children. This not so different than in LC. Faith is by hearing. That is why Islamists are so strong in their faith. Children believe so much that they will receive reward after they blow themselves into air. Do they have pictures of any thing encouraging them to do this? Or this is just a matter of growing in family where parents believe in this and they teach and speak to them from very beginning If You use too much physical thing do not expect from kid that he will gain faith from You.

This is long and soft subject. Next time more about it. I Tim 2. 4-10 and many many similar to it.

Nell · 01-12-2021, 07:08 PM

This series of posts were broken off to a new thread which is more in line with the previous topic.

Nell

12-21-2020, 01:23 PM	#4
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: Waking Up Hi Awoken, Welcome back. I have a theory on "finding a church". Once we "find" Jesus, and get to know Him, and hear Him speak, and obey Him, "church" will find us. In many areas of life, we tend to put the cart before the horse. Pursue Jesus first. That's what's important...I think. Blessings to you, and again, welcome back. Nell

12-21-2020, 03:51 PM	#6
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 968	Re: Waking Up Hi Awoken! Glad you have checked in, but sad for your angst! It's OK to hate contemporary Christian music, most of us grew up hating what our parents hated. Your spiritual parents were probably the LC blendeds and elders and heaven knows how much they hated! Just wondering what the saints did that made you want to recant your initial leaving of the LC and made you want to return? Also, would you want to elaborate on the why and how on your leaving the LC a second time? It would be healthy if you could get to the point where you don't perceive all non-LC Christians to be fake in their worship. Some probably are, but that's no different that the scads of LC church kids that have very effectively learned to fake being in, turning to, and expressing their spirit. I too have been on a quest of trying to figure out how much to throw out. Hoping you find peace, happiness, and contentment. HERn __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry.

12-23-2020, 10:02 AM	#7
Awoken Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 86	Re: Waking Up Kind of a long story, HERn. I went through some very difficult experiences where my life pretty much fell apart (was my fault). After coming back to the Lord I felt I needed to reconnect with other Christians strongly, I believe that was a genuine leading from the Holy Spirit. It's also why I think there are still many genuine believers in the LCs, when I reconnected with some brothers after that I did feel there was really a kind of washing and renewal that took place. On an interesting aside, my wife and I were doing some research today regarding an upcoming vacation and somehow stumbled across an article about Johnny Appleseed in the process, as we will be passing by where his grave is located in Fort Wayne. Turns out he was also involved in some kind of religion that sounds weirdly close to the Recovery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ne...(Swedenborgian). This seems like it could be a discussion all on its own, haha... Anyway, one thing I'm really wondering about is Christmas. 'Tis the season and whatnot, however, to be honest I don't have any desire to practice Christmas really. I'm still pretty mixed up regarding what I think about all kinds of different practices among different groups and I'm not sure I feel comfortable with it or not. When I was a kid I really bought into the whole Santa Claus bit and when I found out that was all a lie it really shook me up and made me feel discouraged. Not sure I want to really take any part in perpetuating that kind of nonsense (no offense to anybody who respects this particular holiday, this is just my own feeling about it).

12-23-2020, 01:40 PM	#8
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: Waking Up Hi Awoken, As for Christmas, we get to decide for ourselves. The problem surfaces when others try to tell us what to do. Romans 14:5-6 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Nell

12-26-2020, 12:12 PM	#9
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Changing your mind about Christmas... I might get in trouble here, but this is too good not to share with Awoken. ☃️ Norman Oklahoma Transcript Christmas Story, 1965 EDITOR’S NOTE: This story, originally published in 1965, is published on Christmas Day each year. A preschool version of the Christmas Story, complete with more than a few last minute improvisations, unfolded before a delighted audience at the First Presbyterian Church Sunday night. The pageant of the Nativity, presented by members of the Cherub and Chapel choirs, in general had proceeded well at dress rehearsal, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, wise men and other 4- and 5-year-olds in the cast had run more or less smoothly through their assigned parts. The Chapel Choir and a narrator provided the background, and except for minor entanglements with flowing robes and headdresses, few problems were encountered. Then the Big Night arrived. The first hint of trouble came even before the formal action opened when one of the younger members of the Cherub Choir, a boy of about 2, took a fancy to the doll representing the infant Jesus lying in the manger. Clambering on stage he made a beeline for the crib and was diverted from his goal only by the action of an alert father. The innkeeper, exhibiting a lively proprietary interest in the stable, practiced leaping about the freshly strewn hay until the arrival of Mary and Joseph, whom he escorted proudly to seats beside the crib. The shepherds and white robed angels arrived soon after. and it was then that the young Cherub, perhaps encouraged by his part as one of the children come to adore the Christ child, decided on another try for the object of his affections in the manger. He squeezed his way through the crowd, grabbed the doll and lifted it from the crib. Mary, reacting like any mother, made a lunge for the swaddling clothes, and a tug of war ensued above the manger. Joseph, stunned for a moment, gallantly came to Mary’s aid with a swing at the intruder. and the innkeeper, proving not a bad sort after all, picked up a handful of hay and threw it at the would be abductor. The arrival of the harried father, towering some three feet above the rest of the cast, restored peace momentarily. But it was the hay, omitted during dress rehearsal, that caused the eventual downfall. Piled liberally about the tiled floor, it proved a lumpy and slippery footing. One of the shepherds, head bowed above the manger, suddenly went down. He scrambled up and immediately plopped down again. The third time he fell he grabbed the innkeeper; the innkeeper bumped an angel and half the cast toppled like a row of dominoes. But the hay proved a soft cushion — fun to dive into, in fact. Soon the shepherd and innkeeper were competing in swan dives into the straw. A wise man scuffled with an angel whose gilded wings had slipped considerably below their proper place. The Cherub, once more eluding his father, tried unsuccessfully to wrest a crook away from one of the shepherds. The narrator and choir, unfazed by the commotion, continued like troupers to the end; the cast was enticed offstage and peace once more returned to the somewhat disarranged stable. One spectator, his voice still trembling with laughter, was heard to remark as he left the church: “I’m glad I read the Book, ‘cause they sure changed the plot!” Nell

12-21-2020, 09:33 AM	#1
Awoken Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 86	Awoken Sorry for the harsh words. I had a 3/4 year period of falling away from the Lord and eventually He pulled me out of it in a very strong way. My church experience has pretty much entirely been with the LCs and the ones I met with are honestly my "church family", so when I came back to the Lord, I had the thought in my head that I really needed to get back to the church. I did, which I think was actually very good, but at that point I also felt I wanted to repent of ever doubting all the Witness Lee/LC dogma. Now that I have been back in for some time I'm realizing there is still a problem in the LCs, so I'm sorry for the harsh words earlier. UntoHim, thank you for the kind reply. Having some good fellowship recently with a brother who used to be in the LCs and was once a "church kid". It is honestly really hard for me to tackle the idea of how to meet with other Christians. A lot of stuff in Christianity still seems very "fake" to me, I guess that is part of the reason why the LCs appealed to me in the first place. Most "Christian" music for example is just terrible, I despise it. It sounds unholy. But, I guess it is what it is. I just want to find a group of believers with genuine hearts for God who want to meet together and follow Jesus according to the Holy Spirit. And I also don't believe in throwing everything from my LC experience away; a lot of it was very good. It's just the part where you follow the teachings of man instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the idolization of Lee, that needs to be dealt with...

01-01-2021, 04:08 PM	#11
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Waking Up Having some good fellowship recently with a brother who used to be in the LCs and was once a "church kid". It is honestly really hard for me to tackle the idea of how to meet with other Christians. A lot of stuff in Christianity still seems very "fake" to me, I guess that is part of the reason why the LCs appealed to me in the first place. Most "Christian" music for example is just terrible, I despise it. It sounds unholy. But, I guess it is what it is. I just want to find a group of believers with genuine hearts for God who want to meet together and follow Jesus according to the Holy Spirit. And I also don't believe in throwing everything from my LC experience away; a lot of it was very good. It's just the part where you follow the teachings of man instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the idolization of Lee, that needs to be dealt with...[/QUOTE] Hi, Awoken! I found this forum recently. I read you testimony. I met LC sister today and few saints few days ago. I would like encourage You and discourage You. Not every feeling You learn from past is wrong. According christian music You can have Your personal experience what was sung from heart and spirit and what not. The same song can be performed in spiritual way and in sinful and fleshly way. This is my experience and no body can tell you how to recognize. Of course there are some basic rules like I do not believe that christian heavy metal is used by God. And similar types too. There must be separation from world. So do not throw away all Your spiritual experience. Now I will discourage You: do not seek "group". I can not tell You what plan God has for You, but I gave up and I pray only for leading for each day. Do not worry were You go and participate next week. Wake up, praise the Lord and go on! If there is any christian group that You can stand some not biblical practices like clapping hand for acceptation what leader or pastor said, or siting, standing or kneeling after command then is good. You will never find ideal group that is why I gave up. I am seeking person, couple, day, hour, moment that God will give me to be built together. That is it. I wish You God's leading in Holly Spirit, but less You expect, with more You will be surprised! Relay on God. I left LC but I have contact with some of them. We can share with some experience here, we can see heresies they preach, but if we have no real leading of our Shepherd Jesus Christ then we will make the same mistake. Take it this way: be focused on positive things. If God had mercy on You and gave you opportunity to see what is wrong, then do not look back and go ahead! Be prepared for loneliness and being not understood. This is the end of times. read Bible as often as You can! Then nobody will deceive You. Remember, brothers in LC are still brothers! They have may be 98% of truths from ancient brothers. If You are invited to good party but guys are not so good company for You, then You take what is good on table and disappear... I can testify, that beside few heresies and general lack of real Holly Spirit leading ( may be not everywhere) They have good teaching. We can judge movement and teaching but not saint we do not know. So I try to contact some of them and see If God will give us good time and fellowship. There is no rule. I know and I hope to visit few saint in Pentacostal church. I wish to have such a saints in LC. And there are... some. So You see, that God knows who is honest and real Christ follower. Just find this feeling in your spirit. Jesus promised this in John 14. He will teach You and me what is sin, what is world, what is His will. I try to read every day. I was not so faithful last 30 years, but holly Spirit can use it now as He wants. When i hear some sermons of Ron Or Minoru I can recognize when they preach false doctrines. I think LC is not different than any other denomination. You can find really lovely saints reading bible and simply blind followers of man ready to kill You with Word of God. You can feel it during meeting. God bless You and may be I comment more soon.

01-02-2021, 12:50 PM	#13
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Waking Up Hi, "Aron"! I am sorry but I learn how to operate on platform with quoting etc. First two paragraphs was quote from "awoken". It was not my words. However I assume that we talk about the same things. It is just a matter of knowledge of Christ and separation soul from the spirit Some times after 20 years You can discover that You can not digest in Your spirit ( which should be one with Holly Spirit) some song or singers. To judge spiritual things we have to use spirit. Of coures there is a place for singing from heart with all Your soul! God wants to save and have on His own our souls. But as I mentioned there is allways some source. The matter of music is really secondary. God will not judge us by music we were listining to. But mature in inner man brther or sister will recognize source and spiritual food. Judge by fruits. Observe if music makes You more soulish or redirect you to the spirit. The tool is your ear and soul like filter. But where You end? I agree with You, that we have to praise God, His creation etc. We can write and write using many words. But as I said counts fruits. I undrstand taht I can meet saints from many denominations here and with different taste. But I hope all we have one direction: to be perfected and encouraged to know better and better Jesus Christ. It is not a matter of good or evil but feeling life and if this or that is pushing me more to seek Heavenly Kingdom. Today I spoke to one sister. I said too much probably. When I gave her picture of bird fed by mother bird and describing that we can not eat what brother Lee was "vomiting" ( in positive way like a bird) then she broke phone call. Let it be. Without Gods Light we are blind and have only our experience interprated by our knowledge. But when we come to Jesus, we can ask what Hi things about it. So it is not a matter of following after man or opinion but after God's heart! It is not about what I like or not or about preferences! There is a real spiritual source. When I saw Amharic singers Schebschewa or something like that I jaust asked brother from Ethiopia for translation. He confirmed words. I just exercised my soul and spirit! I saw that they are simply and singing they really worship God. Later I met other Amharic songs but my feeling was strong, that performer was pretending prayer and made just show. I can not describe it but there is reality in which God caan confirm source. If we can not recognize source then any first teacher can deceive us using very good expolnation and God's Word. My sheeps know my voice. Little bit long as for small matter, but ther are very dangerious hypnotic ministries. But, this is subject for new beleivers. I hope, that many of us here have these lessons behind. But rule is the same: watch HOW you listing! Not WHAT! We have to discern spirits. God Bless You!

01-02-2021, 03:14 PM	#15
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Waking Up I do agree! I do not give up wit this sister. I wrote a sms to her hoping she will come to light. I can testify ( without giving names) that I take a blessing from God fro many brothers in other denominations. there is no rule. He hes faithful servants in Pentacostal Church, Baptist Church, some other over-denominational churches. this is kind of relief to see the same conclusion. Is it not beautiful to see the same Lord in other brothers even they have low teaching, wrong practices etc? And so what? I still learn how to listen my Lord. yesterday I had experience of death. One sister, my wife and I in one moment. She mentioned about Hunk and his attack and I wanted add something ( this sister is in LC) and then she said she does not want to listing to it. But ok, I still appreciate feeling in body more than explanation about JI. That was good experience however negative. I miss meetings. The worst thing is, that really LR have good practice of sharing, oneness and functioning which we nowhere can find. Even today my wife was listening two hours sermon of one brother. Common! I would fall in sleep! Good things, but... too much in one piece! Much better is when in one hour three brothers have three sermons. And best is, hen Holly Spirit is leading and use many. But ok, thanks for response.

01-04-2021, 03:11 PM	#18
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Waking Up To Nell and aron. I do not know how to make a quote on blue back ground to reply certain sentences. Any way, I do agree with You aron and with Nell as well! I have both experiences and I can understand both of you. I can also encourage to try many type of Christian music. As I mentioned before, I tasted Amharic songs, I like very much S country gospel songs, old hymns, hymns from LR, and some other. But, I do really agree with Aron and I am glad that You have some discern of what they sining about and in what spirit. I like to listen acapella and some quartets. But our soul is one thing ( there is a place for kind a relax in our life) and spirit is another. It is good to have this recognition. As You said, sometimes there is strong feeling that song is reaching only mic and ceiling but not heaven. That is what I like. And let mi give You my beloved "prayer/story/song" by Jim Reeves. Whenever I hear this song I cry. This will be my answer to both of You. Can we sing from within our hearts? Can we recognize if other sing from heart too? I think this is possible in spirit and love. When we read Bible then we can have proper spiritual sens of things around us. This not only a matter of what we like or not. This is a matter of source and content. God bless You all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUsrfM4PP_8

01-06-2021, 08:26 AM	#20
Awoken Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 86	Re: Waking Up Aron - Yeah I definitely get where you're coming from. There are still a lot of types of Christian music I struggle enjoying. Thanks for the info on the Psalm-singing, I will check that out! I really enjoy hearing people singing the pure word and the Psalms. One thing that I think is good to keep in mind is that while David was writing his psalms, yes it was all about Jesus, but it WAS also all about David personally, what he was feeling/thinking, what he was going through. We do need personal experiences of Jesus and we need that to be our personal story with God, maybe that will help you to moderate your views a little as I'm also struggling to try to do. I think David is an amazing model for us (inasmuch as he had a great relationship with God), a lot of his Psalms are actually just his actively complaining and grumbling to the Lord about his circumstances, lol. But he had an honest and refreshing walk with God that God obviously appreciated enough to put in His book. While we are not God, God did look on His creation and say "very good" in Genesis... Anyway, I have been trying to listen to some other stuff that is not LC-generated but still seems "pure" to me, here's one track I found today that I've been liking a lot - https://soundcloud.com/hannahbergie/trust-and-obey-hymn

01-06-2021, 07:58 PM	#25
Awoken Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 86	Re: Waking Up Which teachings of Francis Chan are "false"? Searching YouTube I can only find some cherry-picked videos where somebody with a King James-only mindset tries to prove he preached a false gospel because he stated we should be obedient to the Lord/the Spirit. Edit: Yikes, just saw these. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGl9...ature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFVv5-R7CJo

01-07-2021, 06:12 AM	#27
Awoken Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 86	Re: Waking Up Yeah brother, but the Bible also states that only some believers are given the gift of discernment of spirits (1 Corinth 12:10: "to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."). The rest of us have to develop that ability as much as we can. You may have a greater degree of that gift than most, for others it will take time, research, careful studying of the Scriptures (like the Bereans), etc.

01-07-2021, 06:41 PM	#29
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 968	Re: Waking Up Hi Robert, if you could break up your text into paragraphs with spaces it would be easier to read. Chan wrote a book called "Letters to the Churches", which raised a red flag for me. Kind of reminded me of Rev 1:4 where Christ is the one who writes letters to the churches. Also, in a Sunday School class we read a book by Chan on the book of Mark. On almost every page there was a photo of him walking in the holy land. Too much emphasis on the man for me, but that's just me. I'm probably weird. __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry.

01-08-2021, 03:23 AM	#30
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Waking Up Thanks for advise! I am not so skilled writer especially English is not my mother language. I will pay more attention to it. Do not say about Yourself "probably weird". It is very good to discern things. You got some feeling and sense about what You said. Jehovah Witnesses also use fleshly and soulish tools to convict people to teaching or ideology. There is no need for pictures touching soul. This will only create false idea and reality in mind. This deception. It seems like You are involved in Chan's teaching if You read his books to children. This not so different than in LC. Faith is by hearing. That is why Islamists are so strong in their faith. Children believe so much that they will receive reward after they blow themselves into air. Do they have pictures of any thing encouraging them to do this? Or this is just a matter of growing in family where parents believe in this and they teach and speak to them from very beginning If You use too much physical thing do not expect from kid that he will gain faith from You. This is long and soft subject. Next time more about it. I Tim 2. 4-10 and many many similar to it.

01-12-2021, 07:08 PM	#31
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: Awoken This series of posts were broken off to a new thread which is more in line with the previous topic. Nell