Only the Lords Recovery can cause the second coming of Christ

[jigsaw44]

1.Hello my fellow posters Today I have some concerning information regarding the beliefs of the local churches. It all started with a conversation with a recent FTT graduate who grew up from New York, he just returned to the east coast after finishing his years at the the training and we had a conversation on his desires to work full time for the ministry. He went on the usual talk about spreading the ministry and so on. But things got weird for me at this moment, he then talked about the Parousia of the lord.

2. He referred to a verse in 2nd peter (chapter 3 I believe) in regards to expedite the lords return. This is a common verse and it is spoken of quite a lot and debated on its validity in cross examination with other scripture. But going on, he then said that the lords recovery is the body of Christ today and that the his return depends on the ministry, he then went on boasting about the ministry and its "gRoWtH". The weirdness continued when he said that the lords recovery is the savior of the world because the works of the ministry shall be the key for the return of our lord......... Then the usual return of babylon stuff starting coming out and that the local churches have recovered the true body and correct way of the church.

2.5- I felt a little weird after this conversation but when I discovered a LSM publication basically backing everything he was saying, I kind of got a little blown away, cause this is a step up from the usual LC delusion I am use to. Here is a copy and Paste of the words from Living Stream Ministry.


3. Living Stream Ministry- If there is no recovery of Gods people, from Babylon the great to the church life, there being no way for christ to carry out his second coming.

If there were no recovery on the earth today, there would be no return from Babylon the Great to the proper church life, and consequently, there would be no way for Christ to carry out His second coming. This thought should humble us and cause us to receive grace at the throne of God. This thought should cause us to pray, “Lord, You have brought us back and returned us according to Your promise, You have included us as part of Your remnant. I give myself and consecrate myself to You so that You can work out such a recovery today, a recovery that prepares us to be a basis for Your coming again.”


4. Then I started thinking about all the post here regarding why the LC is so desperate to maintain numbers, whether that is campus deception, twisted way of handling relationships so that people don't get attached to something that can be of greater value than the LC, minimizing all personal relationships in order to put the church at top priority with everything else being second (such as friends/family), extreme caution to keeping count of attendance of church meetings to keep track of numbers, and just the overall vile practices to shut down opposition. It is probably why the FTT is a mind control institution, simply because of this delusion. I mean this madness, this is ridiculous.

4.5 All this I think exist, because they are under the delusion that only they can bring back Christ. If someone is truly delusional and they think that they are the only ones capable of brining back Christ, I mean imagine what monstrosity that can bring to the mind in terms of desperation, evil, and the desire to domineer. I am not sure if this is a new belief or an long term Local Church belief conserved Over the years.

5. The reason I asked earlier on whether the local churches believe they are exclusively the body of Christ in their perception is because of this idea of the Lords recovery and their relation to the second coming. I hope I am missing something but this looks clear as day to me in regards to the delusion of LC people.

6. What do fellow posters think about this overall? I really hope im missing something here that can dispel this potential crazed delusion......

[Trapped]

I don't have much time at the moment, and it is somewhere in "the ministry" or in LSM's justification for some of their doctrines, but yes.....they do state somewhere that the bride can only be prepared in the churches which are local (i.e. "the genuine expression of the church") and the Lord will only come back when the genuine church is built. Where is the genuine church built? Only in the local churches, of course.

The local church doctrine of locality is self-elevating in that it's the only real, genuine, proper "expression" of the church.....and thus everything else that is not "meeting as a local church" is thus fake, not genuine, not proper. And the Lord's not going to come back for a fake/non-genuine/improper bride/church, right?

You are not missing anything. This truly is their crazed delusion.

And as you said, once you realize it, then the way they react to "dissension" makes sense, in a nonsensical way. Since they truly believe that the Lord's return literally depends on THEM and them alone, then any "negative" speaking is an attack on the golden gem of a diamond pure spotless bride that they think they are.

Of course, when pressed they will admit there are real believers in other churches. But they are not in the place where the church is built. They are not in the "proper expression of the church" and are thus discarded.

Cult.

[Curious]

So 'meeting on the proper ground' replaces being 'a sinner saved by grace', as the golden ticket for entry. Just like 'worshipping on the sabbath' for the SDA's.

They miss the gospel as presented in the bible! It seems too unglorious to be a helpless sinner mooching around on planet earth with no ability to save oneself from our miserable selfish condition and eventual demise. Much nicer to beleive some great key can elevate us above all this wretchedness, and we can bypass the realisation of our own limitedness and ugliness, pretty much altogether. No wonder it appeals. But truth is what saves.

To be Frank, it's quite scary, trusting your eternal fate to someone (God) who is all powerful and ALL KNOWING, especially about you and me and everything we have done in our lives, every secret, every hidden thing that we may hate those around us to discover. It's not easy to trust, but we are called to trust based on what HE has done for US, not what we an do to align ourselves to Him. If only it could be so easy!

What He does require of us is, humility, transparency before Him, and our trust. More easily said than done, it turns out. Humanity constantly looks for another way, a golden ticket. Which, bypasses the cross and insults Jesus sacrifice of his LIFE for us. This gospel of our trust and Jesus' sacrifice was never presented in my time of meeting with the LC.

[Trapped]

Here are a couple ministry quotes.

One on the building of the church:

The Lord’s building of His church began on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4, 41-42). Yet the Lord’s prophecy here still has not been fulfilled, even up to the twentieth century. The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord’s recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished.
-RcV footnote

Here's one on the bride:

One day, the bride, the wife of the Lamb, will be ready. But if there were no church life on earth today, how could the bride be prepared? It would be impossible. Could the bride be prepared in the Catholic Church or in the denominations? No! Could she be prepared in the free groups or in the charismatic movement? Certainly not! I believe strongly, not because I am in it but because I have seen the vision, that the Lord intends to spread His recovery to build up the proper church life throughout the world so that His bride might be made ready.
-Young People's Training

Here's one that shows they think only they meet in groups in homes, only they teach the truth, and only they spread the gospel:

Our work today is to build up the home meetings, teach the truth, and spread the gospel. In other words, it is to beget, nourish, and teach. These are things that are absolutely contrary to what Christianity is doing.
-Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord's Recovery, Bk 1

They are, and have been for some time......deluded and self-deceived.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't have much time at the moment, and it is somewhere in "the ministry" or in LSM's justification for some of their doctrines, but yes.....they do state somewhere that the bride can only be prepared in the churches which are local (i.e. "the genuine expression of the church") and the Lord will only come back when the genuine church is built. Where is the genuine church built? Only in the local churches, of course.

Hi, Trapped! I agree with You all! I am hoping to describe my over 20 years in LC. The best bait for animals is smelling and tasting like healthy food. isn't? The problem with their propaganda is that in many cases they are right! But crucial point is if they teach and follow Christ Himself. On one hand it is alway stay a way from world and being saint. But not nesseserly strange! The bigest lack is there is no spiritual fathers knowing God and loving brothers and sisters. Everything should be applied in love and with God's wisdom. Little by little, year after year I noticed that whole direction of thismovemnt is wrong. I was so honest innocent and stupid, that I went to elders sharing my burden that saints love each other so much and miss themselv that escape from masseges during conferences to room to have simply fellowshi and pray and share burdens!!!! Brothers giving messages were boring and death in spirit. But down therein church was hunger of life! And just guess what happen? About it later in my testimony. So I can testify, there is a lot of good points and books. But... the way thet exalt so called ministry is at least cult. I can compare any ministry to knife fork and plate. When You go to famous restaurant You recommend them because dishes or because of food. Ministry from God is direkting to God and praising God. All these thing went to far. I left them ( or they left me) because of simply hunger of life! I was not disputing apologetic discussions. Simply fellowship and life hunger. UUUUf! The same as Davis I am full of thoughts and hope to share somewere soon. English is not my mother languge so I hope my gramma mistakes will not influance on thought I want to express. God bless You all!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Our work today is to build up the home meetings, teach the truth, and spread the gospel. In other words, it is to beget, nourish, and teach. These are things that are absolutely contrary to what Christianity is doing.
-Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord's Recovery, Bk 1

They are, and have been for some time......deluded and self-deceived.

Who knows how the Lord will do His ekklesia building in the last days!? It could be that there will be a strong movement in home meetings, where there is no denominational or Catholic influence. But this could certainly happen with no LC influence either! A couple brothers I know are quite into promoting the home meeting thing, and the best I can tell, they know nothing of each other! This shows how independent home meeting can be. Just ask Henry Hon, who was an elder in the California Bay Area for many, many years. His advocacy and practice of the home meetings got him kicked-out of the LC. My understanding is that basically LC leadership (Blendeds?) told him the meetings were too independant and were influenced too much by non-LC teachings, fellowship and practices. They pressured Henry to conform, and when he wouldn't, he was forced out.

Home meetings really fly under the radar. In this time of the Covid thing, many established churches aren't gathering, so I suspect there is probably a pretty good increase in believers meeting house to house now. But who knows where or how many? That's because it's kinda like trying to see the wind! Therefore, I don't think the LC should think, in any way, that they have a lock on home gatherings or can control it.

[Ohio]

WL told us that only he taught the gospel of the kingdom, which includes the gospel of the ground of oneness, the ground of locality. Matthew says this "gospel of the kingdom must be preached to the whole inhabited earth and then the end will come." The message was clear -- until there are LC's in every city, the Lord Jesus will not return.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL told us that only he taught the gospel of the kingdom, which includes the gospel of the ground of oneness, the ground of locality. Matthew says this "gospel of the kingdom must be preached to the whole inhabited earth and then the end will come." The message was clear -- until there are LC's in every city, the Lord Jesus will not return.

And as I remember, the LC Home meetings idea was really just intended as a "feeder" into the LC, right?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL told us that only he taught the gospel of the kingdom, which includes the gospel of the ground of oneness, the ground of locality. Matthew says this "gospel of the kingdom must be preached to the whole inhabited earth and then the end will come." The message was clear -- until there are LC's in every city, the Lord Jesus will not return.

Ohio,

I have questions only you can answer:

1. Do you believe that the mere act of words coming out of Witness Lee's mouth makes those words true?

2. Do you believe that because Witness Lee prophesied the conditions (LC in every city) under which Jesus would (could?) return, did Jesus just say "OK Wit...let's do it YOUR WAY"? Or did Jesus look it up and say "But...but...Wit...! Let's talk to Dad about this..."

3. Do you believe that because it's called the "Lord's Recovery" that (1) "it" actually IS (belongs to) the Lord, and (2) something actually IS being recovered, or ever has been recovered?

4. Do you think the Lord obey's the teachings of Lee, or Lee obeys the teachings of the Lord in HIS Bible?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Others feel free to chime...but I'm really depending on you Ohio.

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Oh I have to believe Ohio wrote what he wrote as tongue in cheek, a sarcastic comment, poking fun of Lee’s absurd, unfounded, unbiblical teaching.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Oh I have to believe Ohio wrote what he wrote as tongue in cheek, a sarcastic comment, poking fun of Lee’s absurd, unfounded, unbiblical teaching.

That's how I read it too. Humor and/or sarcasm doesn't always get communicated well, especially in writing . . .

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL told us that only he taught the gospel of the kingdom, which includes the gospel of the ground of oneness, the ground of locality. Matthew says this "gospel of the kingdom must be preached to the whole inhabited earth and then the end will come." The message was clear -- until there are LC's in every city, the Lord Jesus will not return.

I wonder if he ever taught on the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven.... even if he did, it was probably just another of his many distorted teachings. He may have not even believed much of what he actually taught! But taught because he could and people fell for it hook line and sinker without consulting the Holy Spirit of Truth.

Does anyone know if any of his kids, grandkids, nephews, nieces extended family are even in the LR / LC?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

I have questions only you can answer:

1. Do you believe that the mere act of words coming out of Witness Lee's mouth makes those words true?

2. Do you believe that because Witness Lee prophesied the conditions (LC in every city) under which Jesus would (could?) return, did Jesus just say "OK Wit...let's do it YOUR WAY"? Or did Jesus look it up and say "But...but...Wit...! Let's talk to Dad about this..."

3. Do you believe that because it's called the "Lord's Recovery" that (1) "it" actually IS (belongs to) the Lord, and (2) something actually IS being recovered, or ever has been recovered?

4. Do you think the Lord obey's the teachings of Lee, or Lee obeys the teachings of the Lord in HIS Bible?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Others feel free to chime...but I'm really depending on you Ohio.

Nell

What are you "depending on me" for? Are these questions a joke? Did someone hack Nell's account?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL told us that only he taught the gospel of the kingdom, which includes the gospel of the ground of oneness, the ground of locality. Matthew says this "gospel of the kingdom must be preached to the whole inhabited earth and then the end will come." The message was clear -- until there are LC's in every city, the Lord Jesus will not return.

Nell, was this post troublesome to you?

This is what Lee taught. I heard it often. Doesn't mean I agree with it.

Is this comment of mine somehow off topic? Seriously?

My post above is confirmation of the title of this thread. Is it not? Am I now being moderated for being "on topic." What's happening to this forum?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I wonder if he ever taught on the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven...

Isn't there a chart or diagram in the Recovery Version. I seem to remember something like that, maybe in the Life Study.

[jigsaw44]

I agree, Ohio post was simply informative on what Witness taught, he simply echoed his teachings to inform other posters. The negative reactions, is natural because of how bold and arrogant the the teaching is.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Oh I have to believe Ohio wrote what he wrote as tongue in cheek, a sarcastic comment, poking fun of Lee’s absurd, unfounded, unbiblical teaching.

What did I write that was sarcastic? What's going on here?

I want everyone to know that I have been on my best behavior ever since Untohim shut down the Forum because I started that Complaint Department thread.

Glory to God in the highest! Peace and good will to all! Merry Christmas!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What did I write that was sarcastic? What's going on here?

I want everyone to know that I have been on my best behavior ever since Untohim shut down the Forum because I started that Complaint Department thread.

Glory to God in the highest! Peace and good will to all! Merry Christmas!

Just human communication my friend . . . fraught with all the commensurate inefficiencies and potential misunderstandings! (again, especially in written form)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, was this post troublesome to you?

This is what Lee taught. I heard it often. Doesn't mean I agree with it.

Is this comment of mine somehow off topic? Seriously?

My post above is confirmation of the title of this thread. Is it not? Am I now being moderated for being "on topic." What's happening to this forum?

Ohio,

Sorry...it wasn't remotely troublesome. It was a poorly conceived compliment on my part to your knowledge of Lee. You were on topic and I liked the post. No offense intended.

Again, I apologize for any offense to you. It was my bad.

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't there a chart or diagram in the Recovery Version. I seem to remember something like that, maybe in the Life Study.

I don’t know. I don’t own a recovery version or life studies. More in the post

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What did I write that was sarcastic? What's going on here?

I want everyone to know that I have been on my best behavior ever since Untohim shut down the Forum because I started that Complaint Department thread.

Glory to God in the highest! Peace and good will to all! Merry Christmas!

Nothing you wrote was a reflection on you. You were quoting or implying what Lee taught. I did not understand why Nell was asking you those questions. I was sticking up for you. Sorry if you did not catch my drift.

And Nell, thanks for clarifying your questions. All is good

[jigsaw44]

But I have some points to witness lee analysis on the local churches in relations with the church in Philadelphia

From LSM /Witness Lee

The church is keeping the Lord’s word. [In Revelation 3:8b the Lord Jesus says, “You have a little power and have kept My word.’’ One outstanding feature of the church in Philadelphia is that she kept the Lord’s word. According to history, no other Christians have kept the Lord’s word as strictly as those in the church in Philadelphia. The church in Philadelphia, the recovered church, does not care for tradition; she cares for the word of God.]

[In 3:8 the Lord also says that the church in Philadelphia has not denied His name. The brothers who were raised up by the Lord in England in the early part of the nineteenth century did not take any name other than the name of the Lord. The word is the Lord’s expression, and the name is the Lord Himself. The apostate church has deviated from the Lord’s word and has become heretical. The reformed church, though recovered to the Lord’s word to some extent, has denied the Lord’s name by denominating herself with many other names. The recovered church has not only returned to the Lord’s word in a full way but has also abandoned all names other than that of the Lord Jesus Christ. The recovered church belongs to the Lord absolutely, having nothing to do with any denominations (any names). To deviate from the Lord’s word is apostasy, and to denominate the church with any name other than the Lord’s is spiritual fornication. The church as the chaste virgin betrothed to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2) should not have any name other than her Husband’s. All other names are an abomination in the eyes of God.]

[In 3:8a the Lord says, “I know your works; behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut.’’ As the One who has the key of David and who opens and no one shall shut (v. 7), the Lord has given the recovered church “an open door which no one can shut.’’ Since the recovery of the proper church life began, in the early part of the nineteenth century, until now, a door has always been wide open to the Lord’s recovery.]

[“Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth’’ (3:10). This promise actually refers to the rapture of the overcomers before the great tribulation. “Trial’’ in 3:10 undoubtedly denotes the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21) “which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth,’’ as indicated by the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets with the seven bowls (Rev. 8:13-9:21; 11:14-15; 15:1; 16:1-2). The “trial’’ may also include the supernatural calamities of the sixth seal and the first four trumpets. The Lord promises the recovered church that He will keep her “out of the hour of trial’’ (not only out of the trial but out of the hour of trial) because she has kept the word of His endurance. This promise of the Lord, like that in Luke 21:36, indicates that the saints who have kept the word of the Lord’s endurance will be raptured before the great trial.]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my response

1. Yes it is true that the Church in Philadelphia is a very sacred church to the lord and is blessed at the end of times. But I have to say, how much weight does the "name" of a church denomination have? The local churches are surely a denomination as they fit the criteria for one. Any person can make the argument they are the supreme church because they hold a name that only addresses the lord directly rather than indirectly. A little church in rural Kansas can have the name "Church of Christ", but does the name/title of the church mean everything and disregard the actions/practices of it? Surely not, if the little church in Kansas called "church of Christ" practiced deceitful and wicked things, then their name is actually insulting because they tarnish such a sacred name. It sort of like when the lord says, they are not Jews but a synagogue of Satan. They claim to be something of standard and faith but in reality, their name does stand true to who they really are. In essence the name itself in my opinion is not really significant, and is only used to distinguish one from another- its why humans and institutions, and places of worship all have some sort of name/identity- to distinguish.

Witness Lee then says the LR/LC keeps the word of God to the utmost standard. Yet, they devalue and deemphasize books, verses, and chapters of the bible if it does follow the doctrine of man. In the LR/LC, the doctrine of man is the standard and highest pedestal of teaching and in practice and that even scripture must align with it, or else it is devalued, deemphasized, and even disregarded completely. The LC/LR is perhaps not the only group of churches to practice this for certain, there have been and will be more churches who will put the pedestal of doctrine of man over god. The Church of Philadelphia is certainly not this kind of church, no church that exhalts the doctrine of man over scripture in their daily life is the church of Philadelphia.

Also, the 7 churches of Asia all describe one way or another the state of churches that fit the description of the 7 revelation. Whether: wretched, righteous and glorious, lukewarm and half filled, the struggling poor but rich in faith, and the church that has a few ones rich in faith that overshined the many poor in wickedness (Sardis).

2. The funny thing is, while the LC preaches about how it is one church and they will be judged as one- this is not true cause if it was, the deception and wickedness of the locality of Anaheim alone will be one heck of a weak link in the times of revelation.... Trust me I doubt the LC would prefer if God judged all the localities of the LC based on a composite scale... That would be not very good for a lot of genuine LC folk who are just delusioned.... Just as the Lord judges the churches independently and fairly in revelation based on their historical practices- he will do the same thing for all churches and persons around the world. As seen in Sardis, individuals who are independently faithful and holy will not have to suffer the actions of those close to them. The LC headquarters of Anaheim is wicked, full of megalomaniacs, deceivers, and insecure men who wish to domineer and lord over those below them and place themselves above one another (Matthew 20:25). But the Church Anaheim does not represent the little locality in rural North Carolina who although is deceived by doctrine- are genuinely good people at heart.

So witness Lee speaks of the local church being Philadelphia- what locality can even live up to that standard? Philadelphia is a tremendous standard and just having the pride and arrogance thinking and trying to convince others you are this standard- just speaks volume in itself. In my opinion the exalting of doctrine above scripture rules out any locality as a whole. But as seen in Sardis- the individual represents himself more so than the church he/she is associated with. Perhaps there are LC folk who don't really take up the lee doctrine at all and only keep quiet due to fear- maybe more so than I think. No one truly knows what church lives up to the standard of Philadelphia, but is not the LC as a whole for sure-- way too many issues that they might cover up and fool man with but they sure are not fooling the lord. They even persecuted men falsely and deceitfully in the name of the lord. They tarnished the lords name and use his name for their self interest of power and control. May John Ingalls rest in peace, after reading a portion of his book I am became angered and distraught for how they treated him. Only a wicked and devious person can treat a man like Ingalls like that. John Ingalls sixteen points only wished to put the lord above all, and they didn't even want that. Speaks volume for the wickedness of Anaheim.

3. Witness Lee a name of a church does not qualify of spiritual fornication, the exaltation and worship of the doctrine of man superseding that of scripture is fornication with the holy word. The teachings of witness lee have led to the utmost vainglory, deception, and disdain of many individuals. They look down and lash their tongue at other Christians while exalting themselves as superior when they are just as flawed as any other man. They worship doctrine and slash scripture based on the word of man over God. Lastly, they do this in the name of Christ? To the LC, the you do not spread the gospel/teachings of Christ and therefore the lord shall not return because of the spread of your teachings. But he will indeed judge you so be prepared as for all who will be subject to judgement at the end of times.