Moved from Main Page: We Should Do Something

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks to all of you for the info! It looks like I might have a gap to fill if I try to get a book out that looks at the LCs from a more secular point of view, with plenty of stories from ex-members (as long as I can find enough willing ones, of course)

I think that a non-apologetics book simply covering what happened, what people saw, what it was like, is potentially very powerful. One example that I like is a man named Daniel Boyarin. He is a Jew who doesn't believe in God, at least in the 'orthodox' sense, but works as a scholar on Jesus and the early church. His perspective is really eye-opening, in the fullest sense of the word. He uses sources. He has read the literature. He knows the early witnesses, and can weave them into his narrative. It is such a powerful experience to read his books. I read "Border Lines" about how early non-Jewish Christians 'invented' Judaism to distinguish what their faith was. They created a caricature, if you will. And then the Jewish sages were forced to argue against that, and created modern rabbinic Judaism as reaction.

If you grew up on WL's "History of the church and the local churches", it's so amazing to read someone who actually uses sources. Assemble all the witnesses, and let the narrative emerge.

Let me indulge, if you will, and circle back to the Lily Hsu book once more. When I read it, I felt that it was a cheap hatchet job. I was not predisposed to be favorable to Watchman Nee, but the account was of a young woman witnessing a Chinese Communist 'show trial' in the mid-1950s, where Watchman Nee confessed to producing pornography. The evidence was suspect , to me - who'd produce pornography and write on it, "this belongs to Watchman Nee" as the ChiComs allege? I was quite dubious. And my counter argument was this - nobody in the Chinese Communist system could plead innocent, mount a defence, call witnesses, argue a case, and be acquitted. You had to admit guilt or be executed. So WN pleading guilty was moot.

But then as time went on, I began to feel that this was still a witness. It was still a voice. The LSM apologist says "This was just a young impressionable girl. She didn't know Watchman Nee." But she describes what happened to her faith as she heard him confess. And like I said, a 'senior co-worker' Ruth Lee also was devastated, as many were. Why? Because WN was their shining star. WN, like WL after him, built a caste system in which the Top Dog, were he to fail, would cause the whole to crumble. So the Top Dog is untouchable. Thus, "Even if he's wrong, he's right" as the LC saying went.

Secondly, it brings up an interesting question that I didn't consider at the time. Either WN lied and confessed to something that he didn't do, simply to save his hide, or he confessed to something that he did, to save his hide. Either way, he put his hide above the flock. He knew full well what would happen to the faith of so many like Lily Hsu and Ruth Lee. It's the Kingdom of Self, with a spiritual veneer. Suddenly, WL putting sons Philip and Timothy into the LC trough to fill their bellies makes perfect sense. It wasn't an aberration at all.

So my point of the story is, seek out as many disparate witnesses as you can. You may not appreciate or enjoy the stories, or agree with their conclusions and explanations, but as you put them together, a sort of mosaic will coalesce and you will see a picture. You'll gain understanding, bit by bit, which will help you heal, and pehaps be a roadmap of healing for others.

(when I say 'you', of course I simply speak to my experience. It may or may not be applicable to others. It's just how I like to write).

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

So my point of the story is, seek out as many disparate witnesses as you can. You may not appreciate or enjoy the stories, or agree with their conclusions and explanations, but as you put them together, a sort of mosaic will coalesce and you will see a picture. You'll gain understanding, bit by bit, which will help you heal, and pehaps be a roadmap of healing for others.

(when I say 'you', of course I simply speak to my experience. It may or may not be applicable to others. It's just how I like to write).

Really good point, and a lot of food for thought, thank you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Really good point, and a lot of food for thought, thank you.

Thank you for the kindness.

More on Boyarin: I kind of missed my point. I was trying to say that for me, reading a non-Christian author using primarily Christian texts to make his case for "what happened" was almost hallucinogenic. It was as if what I'd always seen and heard and assumed to be so, I was now seeing anew, through Boyarin's eyes. It didn't matter, ultimately, whether I agreed with him or not but that I gained new perspectives. It was quite liberating.

That's largely why I advise people today, Read books that challenge your perceptions. Then read books that challenge them. In so doing you'll have a better understanding of why you believe what you do, and not other things.

A big weakness of the LC programme is that they don't allow for such open, critical examination. I think it speaks of the inerent frailty of their position. Last year, the "The Great Rebellion of 2019" was actually a 38 year-old mother of 2, a registered dietition, who posted an open letter on facebook. That was all it took.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

Last year, the "The Great Rebellion of 2019" was actually a 38 year-old mother of 2, a registered dietition, who posted an open letter on facebook. That was all it took.

The Great Rebellion of 2019? Please tell me more.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

The Great Rebellion of 2019? Please tell me more.

I guess it was the spring, maybe April of 2019, a couple named Greg and Joanna Casteel from Tennessee posted an open letter on facebook. "Dear saints in the Lord's Recovery..." Jo grew up in the LC, I think Greg joined in HS or college. They both went through the Full Time Training in Anaheim, and became "working saints" or "community saints" after the training. And then things just got weirder and weirder. They read the Bible, apart from the "interpreted word", and it looked more and more discordant, what they were seeing in the "church life". So they searched online, found out about Daystar, and Philip Lee, and sexual abuse covered over in the LC, and said, "No thanks".

LSM called a special meeting of FTT graduates at the summer training, telling them, "Don't read the letter! It is poison!" etc. All the leaders of the LC were alarmed, making speeches, threatening that the earth would swallow these rebels up. The LC had to start a whole new website, "Shepherding Words.com" to address (or obfuscate) the stuff that the Casteels brought up.

The reaction from LSM leadership to one couple posting on facebook, really shows what kind of realm they were living in.... everyone's like, "NOOOOO!!!!!!" Talk about living in a bubble. The slightest bit of light and just like Dracula - shrieking and waving wildly as the body ossifies and crumbles.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

LSM called a special meeting of FTT graduates at the summer training, telling them, "Don't read the letter! It is poison!" etc. All the leaders of the LC were alarmed, making speeches, threatening that the earth would swallow these rebels up. The LC had to start a whole new website, "Shepherding Words.com" to address (or obfuscate) the stuff that the Casteels brought up.

The reaction from LSM leadership to one couple posting on facebook, really shows what kind of realm they were living in.... everyone's like, "NOOOOO!!!!!!" Talk about living in a bubble. The slightest bit of light and just like Dracula - shrieking and waving wildly as the body ossifies and crumbles.

You make a really good point. Growing up it was all about not being "corrupted", but researching the facts and breaking out of your own little bubble doesn't "corrupt".

Somewhat related, but this line of reasoning takes me to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was it bad for humans to seek knowledge? (Sorry, I know this is a little bit off topic)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

You make a really good point. Growing up it was all about not being "corrupted", but researching the facts and breaking out of your own little bubble doesn't "corrupt".

Exactly. If the truth and facts are what "corrupts" the local churches.....what does that say about what the local churches are protecting or trying to hide?

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Somewhat related, but this line of reasoning takes me to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was it bad for humans to seek knowledge? (Sorry, I know this is a little bit off topic)

ExChurchKid,

So glad you decided to stick around. For reals.

I would say that the garden of Eden story is probably one of the all-time single most botched interpretations that Witness Lee disgraced us with. He twisted it until it is unrecognizable, and used that twisted version to control saints, excuse sin, cover unrighteousness, and oppress many consciences.

It wasn't bad for humans to seek knowledge. It was bad for humans to disobey God.

Knowledge, and distinguishing good and evil, are spoken of as good things in the Bible (or as being bad to NOT have):

Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Hebrews 5:11-14
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Witness Lee taught that knowledge was bad/death/poison. But the Bible never says that. Death was not a part of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is what Lee taught. Death was the punishment from God for disobedience.

There are numerous verses in Romans that speak of what the problem was, and I'll spare you from reading all of them, but I'll include two:

Romans 5:18-19
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The problem was not obtaining knowledge, or good and evil being "of death" (they aren't)....the problem was "the trespass" or "the disobedience". Adam and Eve had....probably.....100s or 1000s of other trees to choose from, and God only forbade one of them. God punished them for disobedience, but not because knowledge was bad.

Trapped