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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The only point I disagreed with concerning the truth of it was that the rapist could be a genuine Christian, which I don't believe he is, like you also concluded.

Just to be clear - a Christian is a regenerated one, with the life of the Son in them. With that said, we Christians all still have the flesh and are capable of any fruit of the flesh - yes, including rape, murder, you name it.

As I go on in my walk with Him, after umpteen years I would like to somehow believe my flesh is getting better . . . but it's not. Our only hope is in Christ in us, our one hope of glory!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Just to be clear - a Christian is a regenerated one, with the life of the Son in them. With that said, we Christians all still have the flesh and are capable of any fruit of the flesh - yes, including rape, murder, you name it.

Agreed. A good friend of mine, genuinely born again and serving the Lord for years, did some unspeakable things, at least it was rumored in hushed tones, but then could not bear the guilt, and later took his own life. Horrible tragedy. Prior to that, the kindest and most generous guy I knew.

[Trapped]

I don't disagree, but how do we square that with 1 John 3?

In this particular instance, his actions combined with his lack of real repentance is what is leading me to conclude he's not a genuine believer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't disagree, but how do we square that with 1 John 3?

In this particular instance, his actions combined with his lack of real repentance is what is leading me to conclude he's not a genuine believer.

That is difficult, I will admit. I John 3 on the surface conflicts with I John 1.

The only attempts at reconciliation I can arrive at is what many other teachers have said, that sin here is habitual, it is practiced, it is continual without repentance, and is not a one off. Verse 9 must be read in context with the modifier in verse 6 says, "everyone who abides in Him, does not sin." The translation "practice sin" in verse 8 helps with the understanding.

The alternative understanding only produces either liars or condemnation. First, those who say they do not sin, being born again, rather only make "mistakes," and thus become deceptive, hiding sins, never repenting, etc. Second, those who are honest and admit that they sin are now condemned because they believe they are not begotten of God, nor have been.

Where do we draw the line with sin? Which sins are serious enough to prove I was never born again to begin with? See the point? Can I lie and still be saved? How about stealing? How about losing my temper? What if I hit someone? What about road rage? What if someone dies?

If you read thru the NT, you will see many rotten things describing real Christians. Look at Gal 5.19-21; I Cor 6.9-11; II Tim 3.1-6 for starters.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That is difficult, I will admit. I John 3 on the surface conflicts with I John 1.

The only attempts at reconciliation I can arrive at is what many other teachers have said, that sin here is habitual, it is practiced, it is continual without repentance, and is not a one off. Verse 9 must be read in context with the modifier in verse 6 says, "everyone who abides in Him, does not sin." The translation "practice sin" in verse 8 helps with the understanding.

The alternative understanding only produces either liars or condemnation. First, those who say they do not sin, being born again, rather only make "mistakes," and thus become deceptive, hiding sins, never repenting, etc. Second, those who are honest and admit that they sin are now condemned because they believe they are not begotten of God, nor have been.

Where do we draw the line with sin? Which sins are serious enough to prove I was never born again to begin with? See the point? Can I lie and still be saved? How about stealing? How about losing my temper? What if I hit someone? What about road rage? What if someone dies?

If you read thru the NT, you will see many rotten things describing real Christians. Look at Gal 5.19-21; I Cor 6.9-11; II Tim 3.1-6 for starters.

This isn't my full response but is just what I have time to squeeze out regarding the verse references at the end of your post.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Barnes Notes on the Bible comments that "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" means "cannot possibly be saved". I am fine acknowledging that this is an interpretation, but that is how I would read it too. I would never read that list and think "believers". Galatians 5 seems to me to be contrasting flesh/law (not saved) with Spirit/spirit (saved). Could say more but too short on time. Verses 22-24 say "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." I just don't see genuinely belonging to Christ Jesus and raping being able to go together.

1 Cor 6:9-11 is definitely about unbelievers, because just after it Paul says "and such WERE some of you....BUT you were washed, BUT you were sanctified, etc..." The rotten list is describing before salvation, not after.

2 Timothy 3:1-6 is also definitely about unbelievers, because in verse 8 he says "....so also these men (described in vv 1-6) oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith..." That sounds like an unbeliever or false believer to me.

I don't know if it's just the act of rape that's the hangup or what. I went through the same mental thought process as you as I drove home tonight, thinking "where is the line, then, that determines my own salvation, since I still sin?" Something about rape is a no-go for me as far as a genuine believer in Christ able to do it, in the sense that it is 1) aforethought, 2) continued in coercion against a struggling second party, and 3) not often done in a "blind rage". I don't know where we draw the line though, I totally agree and am scratching my head too, but I will try to say more another day when I have more time.

By the way, love him or hate him, I am getting some of my perspective from Ray Comfort of Living Waters. He preaches the gospel in a very specific way, and that is where I am getting the false conversion angle from. He is big on people walking around thinking they are good with God, outwardly serving Him, but not really saved because the real gospel wasn't preached to them...i.e. false converts. Oftentimes the fruit isn't evident in their lives. Anyway, this topic interests me some (sin after salvation) so I'll try to revisit, like I said.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

1 Cor 6:9-11 is definitely about unbelievers, because just after it Paul says "and such WERE some of you....BUT you were washed, BUT you were sanctified, etc..." The rotten list is describing before salvation, not after.

It could be believers or unbelievers - or put a better way - regenerated or unregenerated. Being a Christian just means who we have been made (sons of God) in Christ, with His life in us. It doesn't speak to our behaviors, which can be all over the map and look exactly like what we were saved from. However, the reality is our old man has been crucified, and now we are encouraged to walk according to the new reality of who we really are.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It could be believers or unbelievers - or put a better way - regenerated or unregenerated. Being a Christian just means who we have been made (sons of God) in Christ, with His life in us. It doesn't speak to our behaviors, which can be all over the map and look exactly like what we were saved from. However, the reality is our old man has been crucified, and now we are encouraged to walk according to the new reality of who we really are.

I don't read those verses that way at all. You think there are genuine, regenerated believers in Christ, who have the life of Christ in them, who are still....

...continuing in sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexual relations, thieving, greed, drunkenness, verbally abusive, and cheating people?

That would be false believers if I ever heard one!

Paul's point is that they WERE those things, BUT then they got saved.

In the preceding chapter, Paul says:

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.
10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

"claims to be a brother but is [list of sinful actions]....." In other words, claims to be saved but the fruit of his life shows he really isn't.

We can associate with sinful people who acknowledge they aren't regenerated, but not people who claim they are brothers but really aren't, but live as if they aren't.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It could be believers or unbelievers - or put a better way - regenerated or unregenerated. Being a Christian just means who we have been made (sons of God) in Christ, with His life in us. It doesn't speak to our behaviors, which can be all over the map and look exactly like what we were saved from. However, the reality is our old man has been crucified, and now we are encouraged to walk according to the new reality of who we really are.

Good one Sons to Glory ... and real.