POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

[Davis]

8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"

[Nell]

13. Hypocrisy

[jigsaw44]

Highest of all violations- divine heresy in the worship of doctrine
- Exalting Doctrine-Prioritizing the doctrine of man to be the standard over the word of God. Judging the value of certain books of the bible based on its accordance to the doctrine of Witness Lee.
- Doctrine Manipulation- Using doctrine to violate scripture in order to manipulate church members to conformity and manipulation.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

13. Hypocrisy

What about my #13?

Hypocrisy didn't make the cut? It is the fourth post.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

What about my #13?

Hypocrisy didn't make the cut? It is the fourth post.

Nell

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

[Sons to Glory!]

I thought to line-up some things in an outline form (as mentioned in my last post) to organize things under a few main errors, but at this moment have no peace to do so. If someone else wants to take a crack at it . . .

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I thought to line-up some things in an outline form (as mentioned in my last post) to organize things under a few main errors, but at this moment have no peace to do so. If someone else wants to take a crack at it . . .

I have no intention to derail this thread, but just as a further example of what's been brought up on the forum the past week:

That phrase "have no peace" makes me furious.

In bringing this up, I'm not saying that you can never say it. I'm not asking you to refrain from using it or to change your ways at all. I'm just bringing it up to try to show you that even what seems like the most innocuous, normal "why can't I say that" phrases are like injections of poison into church kids.

I hate the phrase "....don't have the peace....". It makes my jaw clench, and my shoulders tighten, and starts to give me a headache, all without my realizing it. Why? Because it was used by my mother usually when I had fully been expecting to do something I looked forward to, or something totally non-sinful, that I prepared for, got ready for, got in the car for, anticipated doing, and then......

.....on the drive to it "I don't have the peace to keep going" would flow out of her mouth, and I became the most unimportant piece of nothing at the snap of a finger.

We would have to turn around, go back home, and whatever positive, pleasant thing I was looking forward to was ripped from me for no reason. Just because "the peace" said so.

"The peace" was wielded like a weapon, and there was never a reason given. "The peace" was the all-important thing and it didn't matter if it crushed me. I learned early on that there was nothing I could do, and if this nebulous, undefined, makes-no-sense lack of "peace" reared it's ugly head then no matter how I felt, I had no choice in the matter. I was powerless. I was meaningless. I was worthless.

God got whatever He wanted, right at the time when I was looking forward to something the most, and He didn't have to give a reason, and most of all, the excitement I had just seconds prior didn't matter. And I didn't matter.

Reading that you "have no peace to do" something makes me want to throw back a tall bottle of alcohol so I don't have to be reminded of how insignificant and worth absolutely nothing "God" made me feel in the local church as a kid.

And I'm saying that as a believer.

People on this forum, you are touching serious and sometimes life-threatening issues of deep pain, abuse, and trauma in the people who come here. I can only pray that somehow the God who sees into the areas of pain in your own life can help you understand the pain of others.

To keep this on topic, I don't have the desire to make an outline at the moment either.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That's quite the intense, visceral reaction, Trapped! Sorry you had that kind of experience. So maybe I should instead say, "Something inside me didn't feel right about making that kind of outline"? (but truly, I must say that the sensation I had is best described as no peace . . .)

Nell:
Seriously? Mockery? Can you be more offensive?

In the interests of protecting things from going sour here, I have two things to say.

First off, I want to give a bit of faith in StG. I did not read mockery into his post. It might be, or he might have just answered straightforwardly, acknowledging what Trapped explained, but also maintaining his right to choose words that he feels fit his experience best. Putting both on the table.

Personally, I don't think StG would have deliberately been nasty. I don't think that's who he is.

More significantly, I feel that Trapped has detailed something very important here in describing this to us. Church kids received a really bad deal, into their formative years too. This is not to be viewed lightly unless this forum wants to sweep them aside and treat them as they have been disregarded already. If they are 'triggered, sensitive to ' christian-ese' and being preached at'..... let's honour that. It's serious, as Trapped has said. His story is heartbreaking, and he's one that has come out strong, a survivor.

It doesn't hurt any of us to 'prefer one another'... That is the rubber hitting the road as Christians, we are called to that anyway. We could be right on the verge of being able to speak help and healing to large numbers of ECK's. People respond to feeling respected, honoured valued, cared for, listened to, given the benefit of the doubt. We have the power to express that to these abuse survivors, and they qualify for such care, their stories are heartwrenching.

QUOTE from Trapped:

'People on this forum, you are touching serious and sometimes life-threatening issues of deep pain, abuse, and trauma in the people who come here. I can only pray that somehow the God who sees into the areas of pain in your own life can help you understand the pain of others.'

To me these are extremely important words.

Through these recent tense conversations on this forum, a key has been revealed to us, one we didn't know about before. We didn't know all this Christian talk was putting them off, and worse, retraumatising them. We weren't trying to oppress them. But in learning that it did, we can approach them with that in mind. Let's be the red sea and part (adjust ourselves I how we interact with them) to let them embark on the journey through to a better place! (odd visual but it just came to me!). We can still chat to each other as we enjoy, just keep that to relevant thread topics.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

I agree that WL's biggest error was his MOTA doctrine and the authoritarian structure and practices that flowed from that. Item 9. "Central control while preaching local autonomy" flowed from the MOTA doctrine, for example.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

21. Smear Campaigns
22. Absence of giving/practicing grace. Instead The Lords Recovery relies on items 4,5,& 10.
A follow up poll question (heretical teachings aside), how many ex-LCERS would still be meeting with a local church if it was not for:
Disparaging Christianity
Suing other Christians
Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
Smear Campaigns

[Nell]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

21. Smear Campaigns
22. Absence of giving/practicing grace. Instead The Lords Recovery relies on items 4,5,& 10.
A follow up poll question (heretical teachings aside), how many ex-LCERS would still be meeting with a local church if it was not for:
Disparaging Christianity
Suing other Christians
Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
Smear Campaigns

Spiritual pride.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

21. Smear Campaigns
22. Absence of giving/practicing grace. Instead The Lords Recovery relies on items 4,5,& 10.
A follow up poll question (heretical teachings aside), how many ex-LCERS would still be meeting with a local church if it was not for:
Disparaging Christianity
Suing other Christians
Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
Smear Campaigns

Interesting question. I know many left because of the control over the various localities and that they must adhere to, and be subservient to, the central ministry. To me, the other big one was the elitism (MOTA & "ground of oneness") - they were it and all others must see that.

And both those, as Nell pointed out, are prideful. I think many things then stemmed from that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting question. I know many left because of the control over the various localities and that they must adhere to, and be subservient to, the central ministry. To me, the other big one was the elitism (MOTA & "ground of oneness") - they were it and all others must see that.

And both those, as Nell pointed out, are prideful. I think many things then stemmed from that.

1 Corinthians 13:7
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Maybe I'm all alone here, but I believe with love there is no spiritual pride, elitism, smear campaigns, shunning, practicing quarantines, suing Christians, disparaging Christianity.
Instead with love, there is humility and grace towards one another.
Had there been those traits, how many ex-lcers would still be meeting with a locality?