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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

There is no hope of this ever going anywhere. Either adopt unwanted babies or shut up.

Having read your posts for a few years now, it takes hellish statements from you to make my jaw drop. But that's exactly what your posts on abortion have done. I'm speechless.

Luke 1 speaks of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit even before he was born:

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

Strange thing to say of a non-person clump of cells.

Jeremiah 20 speaks of being "killed in the womb"

Jeremiah 20:17
For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever.

Yes, if you are in the womb, it is still being "killed". It is still murder.

I'm loathe to spend any time speaking of God or the Bible to you after reading your spitting on both in the LGBTQ thread, but this post is for anyone else reading.

Yes, it is murder before the point of birth.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Having read your posts for a few years now, it takes hellish statements from you to make my jaw drop. But that's exactly what your posts on abortion have done. I'm speechless.

Luke 1 speaks of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit even before he was born:

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

Strange thing to say of a non-person clump of cells.

Jeremiah 20 speaks of being "killed in the womb"

Jeremiah 20:17
For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever.

Yes, if you are in the womb, it is still being "killed". It is still murder.

I'm loathe to spend any time speaking of God or the Bible to you after reading your spitting on both in the LGBTQ thread, but this post is for anyone else reading.

Yes, it is murder before the point of birth.

How many unwanted babies have you adopted?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

How many unwanted babies have you adopted?

She is now a medical officer in the military with her own family.

Definitely not "unwanted."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

She is now a medical officer in the military with her own family.

Definitely not "unwanted."

Great. You've done your part. Now all you have to do is, stop using the Bible to control women's bodies.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great. You've done your part. Now all you have to do is, stop using the Bible to control women's bodies.

Does a woman, in God's eyes, have a right to kill herself?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Does a woman, in God's eyes, have a right to kill herself?

No but the analogy is incorrect on so many levels. Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her. The baby comes out of the woman’s body. The baby before conception is part of the woman’s body. The baby may be born out of wedlock (raped by a man). This unwanted baby will have a hard life in the foster care system, more prone to crime etc. Those with congenital diseases will suffer more than if aborted. Best is to measure amount of suffering if the baby is born and if the baby werent born. A huge family with many babies with not enough resources to take care of them- higher rates of poverty, mental health illness, stress on family and parents, divorce rate goes up, child neglect and abuse goes up due to stress of having to take care of so many children, alcoholism, drug abuse goes up. Mentally retarded babies grow up being bullied and in criminal justice system more times than healthy babies.

My aunt made the right decision to abort a baby with down syndrome. That would have caused low quality of life for both the baby and the family. My wife’s parents did the opposite. They kept her deaf and mute sister. She is living a lower quality of life and made my wife’s mom so stressful she passed away early. on top of that, her parents had to escape extreme bullying and life threatening situations due to people in Saudi Arabia’s attitudes towards the disabled, which led my wive’s family to illegally enter the United States for a better life for that sister. They had a new struggle being undocumented- low wages with managers taking advantage of them, low level of health care, sister had to go to porn industry to make ends meet.

If the man wants to decide what to do with the baby, they should stop “accidently” making women pregnant if they dont have the financial and mental health resources or healthy emotional capacity to take care of the baby.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

No but the analogy is incorrect on so many levels. Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her. The baby comes out of the woman’s body. The baby before conception is part of the woman’s body. The baby may be born out of wedlock (raped by a man). This unwanted baby will have a hard life in the foster care system, more prone to crime etc. Those with congenital diseases will suffer more than if aborted. Best is to measure amount of suffering if the baby is born and if the baby werent born. A huge family with many babies with not enough resources to take care of them- higher rates of poverty, mental health illness, stress on family and parents, divorce rate goes up, child neglect and abuse goes up due to stress of having to take care of so many children, alcoholism, drug abuse goes up. Mentally retarded babies grow up being bullied and in criminal justice system more times than healthy babies.

My aunt made the right decision to abort a baby with down syndrome. That would have caused low quality of life for both the baby and the family. My wife’s parents did the opposite. They kept her deaf and mute sister. She is living a lower quality of life and made my wife’s mom so stressful she passed away early. on top of that, her parents had to escape extreme bullying and life threatening situations due to people in Saudi Arabia’s attitudes towards the disabled, which led my wive’s family to illegally enter the United States for a better life for that sister. They had a new struggle being undocumented- low wages with managers taking advantage of them, low level of health care, sister had to go to porn industry to make ends meet.

If the man wants to decide what to do with the baby, they should stop “accidently” making women pregnant if they dont have the financial and mental health resources or healthy emotional capacity to take care of the baby.

Yes, but . . . see Ohio's last post.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

If the man wants to decide what to do with the baby, they should stop “accidently” making women pregnant if they dont have the financial and mental health resources or healthy emotional capacity to take care of the baby.

Oh no. Men want laws controlling women, but no thought to supporting legislation controlling men's bodies ; as in making it against the law for a man to make an unwanted baby. Prolife men just don't want to keep it in their pants.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great. You've done your part. Now all you have to do is, stop using the Bible to control women's bodies.

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body. Is this too hard to understand? We can protect the unborn without controlling any woman.

The unborn child has its own body, its own arms and legs, its own eyes and ears, its own heart beat, its own fingerprints, its own DNA, its own soul, its own personality. It's body is completely separate from the mother's body.

Why don't you provide "women's rights" to these unborn female children? Isn't abortion "sexist" by killing girls, and "racist" by killing unborn minorities? Didn't Sanger the founder of Planned Parenthood intend to use abortion to eliminate all African Americans? And what gives you the right to tell me to stop using the Bible? To stop trying to protect the most vulnerable and innocent of all?

Trapped said your comments were "hellish." Your running anti-Christian commentary has become quite sardonic towards what was your own former life in Christ.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body. Is this too hard to understand? We can protect the unborn without controlling any woman.

The unborn child has its own body, its own arms and legs, its own eyes and ears, its own heart beat, its own fingerprints, its own DNA, its own soul, its own personality. It's body is completely separate from the mother's body.

Why don't you provide "women's rights" to these unborn female children? Isn't abortion "sexist" by killing girls, and "racist" by killing unborn minorities? Didn't Sanger the founder of Planned Parenthood intend to use abortion to eliminate all African Americans? And what gives you the right to tell me to stop using the Bible? To stop trying to protect the most vulnerable and innocent of all?

Trapped said your comments were "hellish." Your running anti-Christian commentary has become quite sardonic towards what was your own former life in Christ.

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

Personality is also evident at or immediately after birth. Any parent can testify that "he/she came out [insert personality trait here]." After all, we're talking about a human being here.

A human being dependent upon another human being (i.e. baby siphoning off nutrients) doesn't mean in any way that it's not a separate human being. Just because there is a dependency or connection doesn't mean it's not a person with its own life. You know that.

The rape scenario is a specific percentage of the preceding events to abortion. It doesn't deal with many other scenarios. And while I don't think anyone here discounts the horror, pain, suffering, and trauma that comes from something as evil as rape, the logic being thrown around here is "I was raped, therefore I get to murder someone".

Doesn't work.

We should be looking at providing the support, care, counseling, belonging, and safety that a rape victim needs, rather than adding to the evil by capping the rape off with a murder.

If we say "Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her" then we are deluding even ourselves. ALL laws determine what we can do with our body. The speed limit laws control how far I can press my foot down on an accelerator. The crosswalk lights determine if I walk or wait. The laws against murder determine whether or not I can pull the trigger of a weapon pointed at a person. We are not free to do whatever we want with our bodies no matter what. There are always boundaries.

Unsafe sex, sex outside of a stable marriage, premature sex, etc.....doesn't give anyone the right to murder the result of those mistaken actions. "You might be an inconvenience" or "you might have a hard life" or "you might have physical or mental difficulties" doesn't justify "I get to murder you". That is the exact same slide Hitler jumped down. Anyone who doesn't "cut it" dies.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

It is the height of arrogance to tell someone that they have no right to protect innocents just because they are men. If you won't listen to men about abortion, then you definitely don't listen to women either about abortion.

Do you have any idea what women go thru who have had an abortion? The lifelong guilt, remorse, and psychological trauma of killing that which was once life. Within them. All because they were told it was "inconvenient." Post-partum depression is nothing compared to the guilt some endure.

One of the kindest, most loving Moms I know was the result of a rape. Her rapist father was a black man. Her single mother then made an heroic choice for life. Today she is a doting grandmother who never once regretted her decision. This is what a loving God and Father can do!

Once a society decides to terminate "undesirable" life, that society declines. The decision to terminate other undesirables becomes that much easier. I should think that you would understand this, and change your perspective. Many countries view LGBT as "undesirable."

I don't think you understand what a "patriarchical machochistic society" looks like. Perhaps you should visit some Muslam country. Most have zero tolerance for gays. The same goes with socialist and communist countries. Go live in China and find out what the gay "social scorecard" is. Gays sometimes are murdered as a public example, and sometimes they just disappear. For you to consider the USA to be a "patriarchical machochistic society," is frankly just to believe pure propaganda, far far worse than any LC "Kool-Aid."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body.

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

Yes, within the woman's body. No, not her body.

And I don't have to tell women that. They know!