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10-21-2020, 07:01 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 718
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Re: Coming Clean in the System of Authority and Submission
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I think it is amazing that government officials in Washington D.C. lie about their criminal acts and wrongdoings and dig in when they are caught; instead of confessing. But they have a team of people who are in coordination to cover them and to cover-up for them, if needed. We wouldn’t allow such a government in the church life, right? But we do have a system of church government that tells us not to care for right and wrong; but to look away from the mistakes of a leader (deputy authority) and respect “God’s government” instead. In so doing, a system of authority and submission began, which can be traced back to the resumption of Watchman Nee’s ministry in 1948 that followed his 6-year suspension. Actually, these two systems work similarly to cover the backs of leaders and to cover-up for them, unrighteously, when needed. It is much better to see the vision of our failure(s); be abhorred by it; and pursue determinedly a good conscience before God and man, and a pure testimony of Jesus. S. I. Timeline of Watchman Nee Era http://www.LordsRecovery.us/Timeline...hmanNeeEra.pdf Timeline of Witness Lee Era http://www.LordsRecovery.us/Timeline...ssLeeEraUS.pdf Cycles of God Accomplishing and Satan Destroying The Bible is a book of recovery says Witness Lee, showing cycles of God accomplishing and Satan destroying in Concerning the Lord’s Recovery. Foreword by Benson Phillips: “In both the Old Testament and the New Testament God's purpose, intention, and goal to have man as His expression is clearly revealed. Also, His accomplishments according to that intention can be clearly seen. Furthermore, both Testaments give a clear record of how Satan, God's enemy, works to corrupt and destroy what God has accomplished. Finally, the two Testaments reveal how God comes in after Satan's destruction to regain His expression. This regaining of His expression is the basic matter of the Lord's recovery. God plans and God accomplishes; then Satan destroys and God recovers.” (Concerning the Lord’s Recovery, 1983, Witness Lee) A Quick but Valuable Overview Witness Lee shares in his book on “the basic matter” of recovery – regaining God’s expression. “The complete model of the church in the Old Testament was the temple. When the temple was fully built up, the glory of God came down. This means that God Himself came down as the glory to cover the temple and to fill the temple up. That was the picture of the full accomplishment of God's purpose. Lost “But then Satan came in first to ruin and corrupt the people. The temple was built up during the glorious reign of Solomon the king. But Solomon himself took the lead to become rotten and corrupt. He was corrupted by the pagan concubines. The concubines brought in the idols, and this ruined the people. The entire nation of Israel was ruined, so God had no way to dwell among them. He had to give them up. Then the Babylonian army came to destroy the temple and the Holy City and to capture the people away to Babylon. The first forefather of the children of Israel was Abraham, who was called out of Babel. Satan came in to bring all of Abraham's descendants back to the very place Abraham was called out of. So whatever God accomplished was gone.” (Concerning the Lord’s Recovery, online, ch 1, sect 2, 1983, W. Lee) Regained “But after seventy years God came in to do a recovery work. God came in to recover the thing that was lost. In the recovery of God's expression the scale was not so big as the original, but the quality was higher. By reading Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah you could see that the returned people were deeply dealt with by God. Their spiritual morality and character were higher than those of the children of Israel before the temple was built. In a sense Solomon was not that moral; he had many concubines. That is terrible! That is a kind of unveiling of the rottenness of that king of wisdom. He was wise, but he was rotten. His morality was too low! But after the captivity, in the recovery, the character of God's people was very much uplifted. If you considered Ezra and Nehemiah, you would have to admit that these leaders were pure and moral. Their character had a high standard. So as to quality the Lord's recovery was higher than what had been there previously.” (chapter 1, section 3, 1983) Gaining A Pure Testimony of Jesus - 1983 “The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Witness Lee, chap. 1 section 4, 1983) On Not Reaching the Standard of our Vision – 1994 Eleven years later Witness Lee shares about not succeeding to reach the standard over a 72 year period: “From Brother Nee’s time until today, for seventy-two years, our practice has never come up to the standard of our vision that we have received of the Lord. Brother Nee stressed two things: Christ as life to produce the church and the church as the Body of Christ to express Christ. But, sorry to say, it was not only the outsiders who did not know these things; even among Brother Nee’s co-workers, who were my contemporaries, very few have fully entered into the realization of these two matters. Not to mention the matter of the Body of Christ, they did not even see the matter of Christ as life to us. “In 1934 a letter came to me from Watchman Nee saying…that the vision we had received from the Lord concerned Christ as our life to produce the church, not as an organization but as a Body, an organism, to express Christ. This, he said, is what we have seen, and this is what we should preach and teach. Brother Nee wrote these words twelve years after the beginning of the recovery in China in 1922. From the time that I began my ministry until today I have put out many books concerning the vision that we have seen. Through all the years, in mainland China, in Taiwan, in southeast Asia, and in the West today, in our practice we have never come up to the standard of what we have seen.” (Living a Life According to the High Peak of God’s Revelation, p. 38, W. L.) *** But, in response, neither has the leadership come up to standard to lead the churches into repentance even though the truth has been made clear to the leaders from many and varied sources. No repentances, no high standard. And, also no revival.To repeat, “The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery.” (Witness Lee, chap. 1 section 4, 1983) “This is why in the New Testament the Apostle Paul would not tolerate any kind of immorality. In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul charged the church not to associate with that immoral person. The church as a pure testimony of Christ would not tolerate any impurity, any immorality. The church has to be pure. Once the church becomes rotten, it loses its nature and standing as the Lord's testimony….” In addition to going off course, blame was displaced onto others for the turmoil, division, and quarantines that ensued. When will those on the path of deviation judge themselves? And come clean in the House of God. S. I. 10-21-2020 |
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01-01-2021, 05:53 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 718
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Re: Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Assessed
After being driven to the point of questioning seriously the legitimacy of the “Lord’s New Move,” planned and orchestrated in the “local churches” by Witness Lee, I began to research his claims about the causes of turmoil and division, and also compared his new move to the blueprint he had brought to the United States. At the end of his ministry in 1997, he admitted that he had made "mistakes" concerning staying on the right path of receiving believers; both those "among us" and those outside the local churches. He said he had repented before the Lord and was "sorry to the whole Body of Christ," yet he wasn’t specific about who or what he was referring to but did convey that those "mistakes" were very important and should be researched. He had really under-stated the matter, as history shows. It would have been at a high price for him to tell the truth regarding his "mistakes" and the major causes of division and the persons, places, and details involved. He left this heavy burden first to the leaders, and also to all the saints - that we might learn!
I became pressed in my church life experience to know our history, learning it from men of conscience who paid the price of offering transparent fellowship in the church; but a price was paid also by those who did not become men of conscience, and are suffering the consequences today, as are the churches! https://lordsrecovery.us/MiscAccusationsCH1.pdf Last edited by Indiana; 01-02-2021 at 05:46 AM. |
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01-03-2021, 07:15 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,622
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Re: Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Assessed
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We can only conjecture, but I suppose if WL had spent more time, publicly repenting and exposing details, then Resurrection Life could have had a way to really come forth. But alas, that's not the way it went . . .
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now |
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01-03-2021, 01:38 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 718
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Re: Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Reasonably Addessed
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THE FERMENTATION
Reasonably Addressed 2 The Claim that Brothers Were Involved in a Conspiracy https://lordsrecovery.us/MiscAccusationsCH2.pdf |
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01-04-2021, 08:10 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 145
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Re: Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Assessed
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BTW, recently I have met some leading brothers in S.Korea, and realized they now knew something wrong, but they just want to keep silent or keep distance away from the leadership position rather than speaking out what they have felt... partially understandable, but uncomfortable to me. May the Lord have his way in this country. Amen.
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Less than the least 
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01-05-2021, 05:42 AM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,632
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Re: Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Assessed
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Double bind (n) "a psychological predicament in which a person receives from a single source conflicting messages that allow no appropriate response to be made" [see e.g., works by Bateson, Girard] The followers of Lee's Lieutenants at LSM, because of mixed or conflicting messages, are put in an uncomfortable double bind. On the one hand they've pledged to be "one" and "positive" and so forth. On the other hand, clearly there are problems from the past which have not been cleared up, but rather covered over, as Steve Isitt's writings (among many others) have shown. The group leaders in LSM-affiliated ekklesia are in a dilemma. They want to go on, they want the light, they want life, they want spirit to flow, they want growth, both in numbers and in maturity and degree of works. But they also want to avoid being put out of the LSM synagogue (cf Joh 9:22; 12:42). Steve Isitt attempted to eliminate the double bind. One day in a meeting, Witness Lee said, "We need to reconcile with those who have left. We need to find out what happened, to heal their wounds, to restore fellowship." So Steve tried to do this, and yet to remain "one" with LSM-affiliated church leadership. Eventually he found out that these were incompatible goals.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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01-05-2021, 04:36 PM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 145
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Re: Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Assessed
Quote:
. In the old days, I would have been ripped I'm stirring a trash bin...
__________________
Less than the least
Last edited by Gubei; 01-05-2021 at 04:37 PM. Reason: grammar etc |
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01-07-2021, 09:41 AM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 718
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John So was an Example to follow
http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf
Witness Lee: “The Bible is an honest book. After Genesis 18 and 19, in which we see Abraham's high attainment in his experience of God, there is a record of his weakness in Genesis 20. Can you believe that after having such intimate fellowship with God and after making such a glorious intercession, Abraham could have the experience recorded in chapter twenty?..... Once again we see that the Bible is not man-made. If it were of human manufacture, the writer would not have included this record of Abraham's weakness and shortcomings. But the Bible is honest and it has Genesis 20 as part of the divine record. “Abraham, a man of God, had a weakness hidden deep within him. While in chapter eighteen he made a glorious intercession, in chapter twenty we find the record of a shameful one.” (Genesis LS #55, W.Lee) If the Bible is an honest book, why are not the leaders of "the "recovered church" in earnest quest of transparency in its leadership. Why is there no overseer who will give an honest report about LSM? Men who were in complete anguish and disgust in their experience with LSM, resorted to writing a a letter of disassociation from them, that is, from Witness Lee and his decadent son, Philip, and those who partnered with them. John So and leaders from 9 churches in Europe were done with the duo and their mistreatment of the European churches, the conduct of Philip Lee; and the major role of the father and son in the chaos, confusion and division that took place in the churches in the late eighties. Copy of Original Disassociation Letter http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf Includes 21 names and signatures on three pages, of brothers representing each of nine churches in Europe that supported the letter to Witness Lee Stuttgart Hamburg Reutlingen Tilbingen Phorzheim Geneva Lausanne Neuchatel Zurich http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf |
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05-04-2021, 07:48 PM
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,562
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Re: Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Assessed
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Instead what you will find over the decades is LC conference messages focused on rebellion as seen in The Book of Numbers. Many churches I have been in focus on a New Testament ministry instead of an Old Testament type. A much more healthy word to nourish and restore brothers and sisters is a ministry of reconciliation as seen in 2n Corinthians 5:11-21 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. |
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01-02-2021, 09:36 PM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 278
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Re: Coming Clean in the System of Authority and Submission
[QUOTE=Indiana;96059]Coming Clean
“This is why in the New Testament the Apostle Paul would not tolerate any kind of immorality. In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul charged the church not to associate with that immoral person. The church as a pure testimony of Christ would not tolerate any impurity, any immorality. The church has to be pure. Once the church becomes rotten, it loses its nature and standing as the Lord's testimony….” When we read Bible a lot then we know author's mind and thoughts. We should learn how to catch false thoughts and false ideas. Just between words! Church is spiritual! Our salvation is about our soul. If we follow Holly Spirit then is no problem. But can we be holly 24/7? No! Can we be found at that day waiting for Christ clean and holly? Yes! Will be all 10 virigins ready for bridegroom? No! So why WL was expecting that church has to be perfect? What is church? You see that? No consequences in thoughts and teaching. Paul said that he is not perfect but he forgot what is behind and pursuing ahead... Don't we see our dual life? We have to be perfected and being focused on good things. Yes! But ecclesia-group of people of the called ones. But really if you exercise spirit and listen carefully what WL says You will see hidden idea of " we will do it, we have to, it should be like"! And now we see this exaggeration. On one hand yes! I have to be holly! I have to come to Lord and have fellowship with Him. I have to be full of His word. I can not expect this from others. I will tell You one example. One brother left fellowship and went to the world. We tried few times warm up him. I joined him in pub, he was drinking too much but i was full of hope that if I stay with him he will go with me closer to Lord. But he did not! rathe I felt dirty by dust of this world. So l understood that that was his choice and his heart. Sometimes we can do nothing but pray. But that was organic situation. But the time when we make rule from this without life and Holly Spirit leading we will end up in religion and new testament comandments. The same happen with Witeness Lee. He was honest, he saw need of oneness but unfortunately it became man's work. I am not surprised that he did not see"reality" of thae Body. It is just because he was wrong just before he said "see"!!! Don't you see this expectation of seeing something on this Earth!!!??? Jesus said that only way world will recognize we are children of God will be mutual love!!! No one place, no teaching about symbols in Old Testament, no white shirts and black pants! They are so lost in their teachings and symbols that they do not see simplicity of faith. No one can force Jesus to come earlier and faster! Waiting and waiting. Like expecting thief in the night! All this happen in us. In our spirit. Bride waas prepared in heaven! We have connection with heaven. Our spirit is connected. Yes, thare are friuts of our inner life. But building expectation that "church" ( unspoken definition - we group visible people) have to bahave perfect is not biblical. We as group will be allways complex of different people in different condition. And there is a place for helping oters to grow up. There is a verse saing that "You, who think that are stronger, correct weaker in a spirit of gentleness". And many many other verses showing not perfect life but people on path of perfection. P.S. WL In sentence above misled saints. No where stays this way, that Paul could not stand immorality. For christians this is obvious. Child born again from God has new conscience! and You see how he is building thought that: Paul had authority and he had some certain power to order. Of course You and me and Paul and Apollos and all saints would not tatnd immorality!On one hand Yes. He had authority from God. But if we reacall who Paul was, how Jesus saved him, what is our salvation, that we have love from God, we are servants of others, and if we catch general idea of spiritual work, then we will never build religion. So as I mentioned above there i s a time to say stop to sinning brother. We have to learn how to recognize situation in way of live. And result of this fleshly ideas of utopia is at least man's work, man power, asking brothers to rapport if any body is complaining during training FTTL and removing him without fellowship. Etc.Etc. Simply poor "christianty" as they wanted stay away from. Pity! So one more Time, we have to be like Bereans discerning words and thoughts. And really this is funny that in their book of Charachter of godly man stays that we have to listen wht brother says, what he wanted to say, and wht he did not say. I like it! So be careful how listen no what. Discern spirits and thoughts! |
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01-02-2021, 10:35 PM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 278
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Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery
In addition one more thing. In WL language or definition "reality of church life" is only his expectation of ideal prefect church. We do not see this idea in Bible about visible church on the Earth. We can see only mistakes, fallen man, our sins and nothing good. But when we look at Jesus and turn back sight from our flesh thenwe can experience inner life. That is a Gospel. Just believe in Christ, just wait for His coming. There is always some reality. Reality about church condition. This reality is visible for others from the world too. Other wise why Jesus taught about shining for others, about helping others, loving others and simply living in this world! So what kind of reality WL meant? Some mystical reality? Yes, there is such! In my soul, spirit wher God is operating. But how he wanted to see it? So You can see how little by little there was building idea of oneness.
One more testimony. One day saints was helping brother to move to another city. We never mentioned name of Jesus for few hours just helping and working. His unbeliever friend (helping too), was shocked and asked him later who we are? And how he got to know us? He cold not even describe that onenss. He said we were so "strange" in positive way... God sometimes can give testimony about his chosen ones without words. This is what I understand by shining Him. That was amazing experience and testimony. So there is always some realm. eathe we see it or not. |
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05-05-2021, 05:53 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,562
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Re: Coming Clean in the System of Authority and Submission
Quote:
Thirty years ago or so John Ingalls released a book, "Speaking the Truth In Love". Only one edition. If it wasn't for the labor of one or two to put in Word form and make it available, who knows how many it would not have reached? Yet though John is with the Lord now, LSM doesn't want his testimony to be read. Both of these systems employ propaganda (Fermentation of the Present Rebellion) to gain traction with people. Propaganda is easily put together, but truth and facts takes much longer time to be released. Secular government and in the church there are those wanting to maintain control and will go to any means. Just as I saw it 30 years, I see it now. Those that do the persecuting (LSM and the far left) are in fact projecting what they've been doing all along. What better way to maintain power in the church than the doctrine of deputy authority. Those that resist against the doctrine will simply be labeled as "rebellious", "independent", "ambitious". You will hear phrases such as "be one with the brothers" or "get right with the brothers". Almost seems like a one-sided relationship. Maybe it is. |
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Hybrid Mode
