Did you also have a difficult childhood in the LC?

Curious · 10-12-2020, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISeeCrazyPeople

Trapped,
I should not have assumed you weren’t trapped. I understand where you are coming from as far as having a past in the LC and it’s apparently not something people can just “get over” as soon as they leave. I am really just happy there are people who talks about this type of thing, because I previously didn’t know there were others who had similar feelings to my own. I agree, being a church kid made me feel like I was constantly judged and watched by God (not loved).. I remember that one children’s song that had the lyrics “be careful little minds what you think” and “be careful little eyes what you see”.. I don’t think this song was meant to be scary, but the way I interpreted was scary. To me, I thought I was supposed to be constantly worried and scared God would “catch me” doing something wrong and bad, and to be fearful all the time in case I thought, said, or did the wrong thing.

Do you say “Christian radio was a new thing” to you because we were told Christian radio was sinful in the LC (sounds likely)? Kind of like how it was implied to us through the LC that Catholics are sinful/a cult, and the large mega non-denominational Christian churches are worldly and not of God? My memories of the church are sometimes not super clear. I think I might have blocked a lot of the memories out, or they just seem so unrealistic that I can hardly believe they were ever true.

I like how you shared about that song. I personally have a hard time being touched by Christian songs ... maybe from years in the church with all the expectations to be touched by the spirit (when I really wasn’t touched at all.) I remember people standing up during our Sunday meetings and saying “lets touch our spirit with hymn number ___”.. or “lets worship The Lord with number ___” or something like that. I was never really touched. Your interpretation of the song, and how it impacted you, however, IS touching to me, because you explain how it was meaningful to you.

On a side note, I have been looking forward to responding to you and receiving more insight from you, but it’s so challenging to get a free moment. This is also a thing I wonder about God.. how does he expect people who face certain challenges like being a parent, or working a lot, or whatever it may be that doesn’t allow for time to be alone, sit, think, ponder about life… how does he expect them to do all of the research it takes to figure him out? Because apparently it takes a lot more for people who are questioning types of people (such as myself) and can’t just go by blind faith alone, to believe in him. It worries me that I won’t have time to figure this out by the time I die. I really want time to read these Christian apologetics that you’re talking about, but usually by the end of the day, I just want to pass out and watch a 45 min tv show (all I have time for), or read a little fiction, then go to bed.

Although now I consider myself Agnostic, I have made a serious attempt, in the past, to put aside time to figure out Christianity. It just sometimes feels like one needs to be a super scholar to understand.. so then are the rest of us dumb-dumbs doomed? I once tried to read a book called “How to Study the Bible for Yourself” by one of the guys who wrote the “Left Behind” series.. that was my starting point. But, he insists in the book that you should read the bible every morning before breakfast. He was very adamant about this and says “No Bible, NO Breakfast.” I’m sorry, I just won’t do something like that. It seemed to appeal to young single people who could actually do that. Where does that leave everyone else?

I know you probably don’t have all the answers to these questions, and I’m probably just venting. I still will try to make a serious attempt to read books and educate myself. It will probably just be a very slow process. And what if I die before I figure this out? Am I then doomed as well because I didn’t figure it out in time?

Well, enough complaining. Do you have any recommendations as far as books (Apologetics?) which I should start with? I already plan to read one of the books on spiritual abuse at some point (and I thank you again for those recommendations. Just not sure when I will get around to it.

Dear iseecrazypeople,

I understand your post very well. Having young children can mean constant vigilance day and night, with no breaks till a few YEARS when they get a bit older. God does not favour the studious, though studying the Bible is certainly helpful to the Christian journey.

I just want to advise you this: get yourself the book 'the subtle power of spiritual abuse'. Put it in your recipe holder, or device stand and put it by your stove, and read even just one paragraph a day while you are waiting for something to grill, or stirring the pasta in the pot etc.

You will be gripped by this book, I feel sure of that. Even if your brain is exhausted, you can mull over till the next chance you get to read a bit more . Only if it triggers unbearable pain or anger in you, that could be a reason to stop and look for another plan, which unfortunately, likely.

I am of the opinion that this comes ahead of reading Christian apologetics, as seperating what you experienced from 'health' is the first step. Then studying what Christianity should be will be much more clear to understand. That's just my two cents worth. I hope it helps. Short spurts of the book may help you process the contents as you go. There is a lot to take in.

Maybe you can then think about and process it all alongside parental activities... another multitasking exercise I know!!

I understand this is a question for Trapped, and he may have better advice for you on it's way.

Nell · 10-13-2020, 05:40 AM

This and other excellent spiritual abuse titles have been discussed on the forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curious

Dear iseecrazypeople,

I understand your post very well. Having young children can mean constant vigilance day and night, with no breaks till a few YEARS when they get a bit older. God does not favour the studious, though studying the Bible is certainly helpful to the Christian journey.

I just want to advise you this: get yourself the book 'the subtle power of spiritual abuse'. Put it in your recipe holder, or device stand and put it by your stove, and read even just one paragraph a day while you are waiting for something to grill, or stirring the pasta in the pot etc.

You will be gripped by this book, I feel sure of that. Even if your brain is exhausted, you can mull over till the next chance you get to read a bit more . Only if it triggers unbearable pain or anger in you, that could be a reason to stop and look for another plan, which unfortunately, likely.

I am of the opinion that this comes ahead of reading Christian apologetics, as seperating what you experienced from 'health' is the first step. Then studying what Christianity should be will be much more clear to understand. That's just my two cents worth. I hope it helps. Short spurts of the book may help you process the contents as you go. There is a lot to take in.

Maybe you can then think about and process it all alongside parental activities... another multitasking exercise I know!!

I understand this is a question for Trapped, and he may have better advice for you on it's way.

Trapped · 10-13-2020, 09:23 PM

I just have time to write literally a few words, and they are: "I agree with Curious".

I think reading books like "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a great place to start. Metaphorically, a book like that can help the chains come off (that honestly you may not even realize are there!). Once you start to become aware of the chains, put names to the chains, be released from the chains.......then it's easier to listen to apologetics stuff, in my opinion. In other words, understanding spiritual abuse can, kind of, "remove the filters" making it easier to hear other things without it going through a residual filter from your childhood LC days.

I do have some apologetics recommendations -- videos on youtube really -- but I'll get back to you on that and your other posts when I have more time.

I second Curious's point about just reading a paragraph or two at a time of that book as you have the time. Or, listen to the two interviews of the authors of that book from those youtube links I posted a few posts back in this thread. You can also listen to that a chunk at a time, rather than the whole 2 hours at once.

Your thoughts and concerns and everything you've written are totally normal. And don't worry about not having much time to respond here. Just relax and post here when you have the time and desire. I had to nap most of last weekend just to shore up my energy to make it through this week, even though I would rather have been responding to numerous things on this site, so we're all on a chill timeline here. This forum isn't going anywhere (I don't think!)

Trapped · 10-15-2020, 06:22 PM

ISeeCrazyPeople,

I went back and read some of your earlier posts and noticed that I missed an important part of what you had said. Because of my own experience I focused my responses more on the abusive/aberrant church side of things, but missed the portions you wrote concerning your parents. A couple thoughts came to mind as I re-read, some of which may or may not be helpful or applicable.

Although you are currently agnostic, since you have a Christian landscape from your past, I can’t help but make a comparison to God as I think about your parents. I haven’t lost sight of the fact that you don’t feel like you have solid footing to say there is a God, but I’m saying this in light of your truth quest down the road. If you DO come to a point where you see grounds for God’s existence, your family background, as I see it, may be a stumbling block to your ever wanting to take a step towards God.

I don’t know that this is a hard-and-fast rule, but in general, our views of God (particularly God as a Father to us) tend to be shaped by our relationship with our own father. If you have an authoritarian dad, as you described, then God Himself may not seem like someone you want to know, be around, run to, or feel safe with. God may not seem like someone you can approach, be open to, be honest with, be who you are with, or possibly even someone you can trust. And He especially might not feel like someone who you can bring your sins, failure, guilt, shame, and mistakes to. And this is a tragedy, because that’s what God deeply desires, so He can be the one to wrap His arms around us, failures and all, and clothe us in honor and righteousness instead.

And I'm not making that last sentence up, either.

While my parents did not have an authoritarian style, I would say they were still influenced by the local church’s teachings. The direct, safe, just-want-to-spend-time-with-you, unconditional, non-condemning, delighting-in-his-kids fatherly love wasn’t something I knew (more of a “feel like my existence has let him down, still haven’t figure out how to make him proud” kind of thing), although as an adult I realize my dad showed his love in other ways (faithful to my mom, diligently provided for his family, “good brother in the church”, etc). I mentioned in a previous post that it’s not unusual for people who leave the LC to end up in some kind of counseling, and I am one of the ones who fits that bill. In side discussions about my parents, my counselor framed this kind of behavior in a way I never thought of before, by saying “your parents sinned against you.”

My counselor is a Christian, and he framed it that way because viewing it as sin makes the way for Jesus and forgiveness to come in, but for now I just want to try to shift your perspective of your parent’s behavior to just recognizing they were wrong.

I had always thought, without realizing I was thinking it, that the way my parent’s relationship towards me made me feel was a reflection on my value as a person, on who I was, on how worthy I was. For example, they don’t show outright love and affection, so that means I’m not lovable or worthy of affection. They condemn various lawful things and sinful, so that means I’m a bad person for wanting to participate in those normal things. They make me feel bad for various things, so that means God created me to shame and condemn me.

But that’s not the case. If a parent’s behavior toward you or relationship with you is not a reflection of God, that’s a shortcoming and/or sin on their part. Now, I don’t mean to take it to an extreme....of course all parents are humans and have shortcomings and mistakes and failures, and we can’t be cruel in slamming them up against the absolute wall of God’s perfect standard because we all fall short there. But the main point I’m trying to make is to step back and realize that the damage done to you by your parent’s heavy-handed style, the effect of that style on your mental health in general, and the thoughts you have about yourself as a result of that style, don’t have the right to tell you concrete messages about yourself or your value. I do see that you probably already get this somewhat, as you’ve taken steps to make sure your own children don’t grow up the same way.

In other words, we shouldn’t base our emotional lives on someone else’s sin patterns. I’m not saying that’s an easy thing to do, because it’s not, but recognizing it as a sin pattern in the first place is the first step toward unhinging from the emotional effects of what they did. It was wrong, and so you are fully authorized to disregard any weight and heaviness that drags you down because of it.

The other thing that came to mind reading your posts is regarding safety, and by this I mean “internal safety”. The safety of our soul. Parents are supposed to be the source of our attachment and safety as we grow up. As kids we play but get agitated if mom leaves the room. On the playground we wander away but look back to make sure mom is still watching us and smiling. As we grow we become more and more independent from our parents, but it’s within the framework of knowing we are safe in their hands. But when our parents are authoritarian, strict, restricting, condemning, then what is supposed to be our source of safety also becomes a source of fear and feeling unsettled. And as children, we have no one else to turn to in order to get away from that fear. So we grow up in a way we aren’t supposed to – having to turn towards the person who also wounds us, and having to trust the person who we don’t feel safe with in the way we are supposed to.

Talk about internal conflict!

This can create what some call “unbearable sensations” within us, where we are simply trapped with no way out. Looking for safety but only finding fear. Forcing ourselves to walk towards the source of fear while our own bodies and minds are telling us to turn away. This kind of gut-twisting tension within that we experience as children can stay with us well into our adulthood if we never find a way to identify it, or work through it or process it. Because you have mentioned both a difficult parenting situation, as well as the backdrop of the local church, I think I would recommend counseling/therapy to you regarding these two things in particular, if you haven't done so already. (Keep in mind I’m not diagnosing anything here, and I’m not a medical professional recommending this to you. I’m just a person.) I frankly think that every person on the planet could benefit from counseling at some point, so you’re just a normal part of the human race on this one. If you try counseling, you will know when you’ve found a good counselor. It may be hard to find one that really understands the type of church the LC is, but it’s worth finding someone who does because it sounds like that informed your parents’ parenting style. If a counselor makes you feel bad or worse, drop them like they are hot. I asked around for recommendations in looking for mine, and found one that I can bring up horrible things I would rather keep in a dark corner to, and yet receive only understanding, compassion, and grace in return. That’s what you are looking for in a counselor.

Anyway, sorry I missed the parent aspect before. Hope some of this helps or aligns with your experience in some way.

Trapped

ISeeCrazyPeople · 10-23-2020, 05:32 PM

Wow, I really appreciate all of the new comments on here. I read some of them earlier than this, but have not had a chance to reply until now. Even now, I wish I would have the time to read and respond more thoroughly, but I’ve been even more rushed than usual lately.
Trapped,
Thank you for all of your thoughtful words. They do really hit home for me. To this day, I do not feel close with my parents. I wish I could be comfortable with them and share feelings.. or discuss anything beyond small talk. It’s not something I can just change. They have changed a little bit over time but not much. I think for me to become comfortable with them, they would have to express some regret for raising us in the church and I guess just for the way they raised us in general.
I see another poster (aron), who advised forgiveness. I suppose I have forgiven them in a way. But it doesn’t really change our relationship much. I still feel very uncomfortable around them. I spent my childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood feeling scared and controlled by them. I can’t just flip a switch and change that. I have tried to be upfront with them before, but somehow it always backfires on me. My current approach is to not bring up anything confrontational around them.
But yes, even though I say I’m agnostic, Trapped, I see your point about how this could influence my relationship with God. I do think I need to see a therapist. And I also really appreciate the books you and another poster (Curious) have suggested.
Curious, I will address you in this post as well since I’m crunched for time. Thank you for your post. I feel validated when people understand what I’m going through, which is really nice. It is kind of funny in a way… If I want my children to be safe I really can hardly have a break for “me time” these days. Some of this is due to the pandemic. It’s also their age. But I like your advice about just reading a little bit each day.

Also, Trapped,
This part you mentioned especially rang true for me:
“As kids we play but get agitated if mom leaves the room. On the playground we wander away but look back to make sure mom is still watching us and smiling. As we grow we become more and more independent from our parents, but it’s within the framework of knowing we are safe in their hands. But when our parents are authoritarian, strict, restricting, condemning, then what is supposed to be our source of safety also becomes a source of fear and feeling unsettled. And as children, we have no one else to turn to in order to get away from that fear. So we grow up in a way we aren’t supposed to – having to turn towards the person who also wounds us, and having to trust the person who we don’t feel safe with in the way we are supposed to.”
Wow. This is exactly how I felt and pretty much still feel. I have tried counseling in the past, but not necessarily for these issues. I also didn’t get much help from it, but I’m not opposed to trying it again. Maybe I just need to find the right counselor, like you say.
This is all I have time for. Thanks again guys!

10-13-2020, 09:23 PM	#3
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Did you also have a difficult childhood in the LC? I just have time to write literally a few words, and they are: "I agree with Curious". I think reading books like "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a great place to start. Metaphorically, a book like that can help the chains come off (that honestly you may not even realize are there!). Once you start to become aware of the chains, put names to the chains, be released from the chains.......then it's easier to listen to apologetics stuff, in my opinion. In other words, understanding spiritual abuse can, kind of, "remove the filters" making it easier to hear other things without it going through a residual filter from your childhood LC days. I do have some apologetics recommendations -- videos on youtube really -- but I'll get back to you on that and your other posts when I have more time. I second Curious's point about just reading a paragraph or two at a time of that book as you have the time. Or, listen to the two interviews of the authors of that book from those youtube links I posted a few posts back in this thread. You can also listen to that a chunk at a time, rather than the whole 2 hours at once. Your thoughts and concerns and everything you've written are totally normal. And don't worry about not having much time to respond here. Just relax and post here when you have the time and desire. I had to nap most of last weekend just to shore up my energy to make it through this week, even though I would rather have been responding to numerous things on this site, so we're all on a chill timeline here. This forum isn't going anywhere (I don't think!)

10-15-2020, 06:22 PM	#4
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Did you also have a difficult childhood in the LC? ISeeCrazyPeople, I went back and read some of your earlier posts and noticed that I missed an important part of what you had said. Because of my own experience I focused my responses more on the abusive/aberrant church side of things, but missed the portions you wrote concerning your parents. A couple thoughts came to mind as I re-read, some of which may or may not be helpful or applicable. Although you are currently agnostic, since you have a Christian landscape from your past, I can’t help but make a comparison to God as I think about your parents. I haven’t lost sight of the fact that you don’t feel like you have solid footing to say there is a God, but I’m saying this in light of your truth quest down the road. If you DO come to a point where you see grounds for God’s existence, your family background, as I see it, may be a stumbling block to your ever wanting to take a step towards God. I don’t know that this is a hard-and-fast rule, but in general, our views of God (particularly God as a Father to us) tend to be shaped by our relationship with our own father. If you have an authoritarian dad, as you described, then God Himself may not seem like someone you want to know, be around, run to, or feel safe with. God may not seem like someone you can approach, be open to, be honest with, be who you are with, or possibly even someone you can trust. And He especially might not feel like someone who you can bring your sins, failure, guilt, shame, and mistakes to. And this is a tragedy, because that’s what God deeply desires, so He can be the one to wrap His arms around us, failures and all, and clothe us in honor and righteousness instead. And I'm not making that last sentence up, either. While my parents did not have an authoritarian style, I would say they were still influenced by the local church’s teachings. The direct, safe, just-want-to-spend-time-with-you, unconditional, non-condemning, delighting-in-his-kids fatherly love wasn’t something I knew (more of a “feel like my existence has let him down, still haven’t figure out how to make him proud” kind of thing), although as an adult I realize my dad showed his love in other ways (faithful to my mom, diligently provided for his family, “good brother in the church”, etc). I mentioned in a previous post that it’s not unusual for people who leave the LC to end up in some kind of counseling, and I am one of the ones who fits that bill. In side discussions about my parents, my counselor framed this kind of behavior in a way I never thought of before, by saying “your parents sinned against you.” My counselor is a Christian, and he framed it that way because viewing it as sin makes the way for Jesus and forgiveness to come in, but for now I just want to try to shift your perspective of your parent’s behavior to just recognizing they were wrong. I had always thought, without realizing I was thinking it, that the way my parent’s relationship towards me made me feel was a reflection on my value as a person, on who I was, on how worthy I was. For example, they don’t show outright love and affection, so that means I’m not lovable or worthy of affection. They condemn various lawful things and sinful, so that means I’m a bad person for wanting to participate in those normal things. They make me feel bad for various things, so that means God created me to shame and condemn me. But that’s not the case. If a parent’s behavior toward you or relationship with you is not a reflection of God, that’s a shortcoming and/or sin on their part. Now, I don’t mean to take it to an extreme....of course all parents are humans and have shortcomings and mistakes and failures, and we can’t be cruel in slamming them up against the absolute wall of God’s perfect standard because we all fall short there. But the main point I’m trying to make is to step back and realize that the damage done to you by your parent’s heavy-handed style, the effect of that style on your mental health in general, and the thoughts you have about yourself as a result of that style, don’t have the right to tell you concrete messages about yourself or your value. I do see that you probably already get this somewhat, as you’ve taken steps to make sure your own children don’t grow up the same way. In other words, we shouldn’t base our emotional lives on someone else’s sin patterns. I’m not saying that’s an easy thing to do, because it’s not, but recognizing it as a sin pattern in the first place is the first step toward unhinging from the emotional effects of what they did. It was wrong, and so you are fully authorized to disregard any weight and heaviness that drags you down because of it. The other thing that came to mind reading your posts is regarding safety, and by this I mean “internal safety”. The safety of our soul. Parents are supposed to be the source of our attachment and safety as we grow up. As kids we play but get agitated if mom leaves the room. On the playground we wander away but look back to make sure mom is still watching us and smiling. As we grow we become more and more independent from our parents, but it’s within the framework of knowing we are safe in their hands. But when our parents are authoritarian, strict, restricting, condemning, then what is supposed to be our source of safety also becomes a source of fear and feeling unsettled. And as children, we have no one else to turn to in order to get away from that fear. So we grow up in a way we aren’t supposed to – having to turn towards the person who also wounds us, and having to trust the person who we don’t feel safe with in the way we are supposed to. Talk about internal conflict! This can create what some call “unbearable sensations” within us, where we are simply trapped with no way out. Looking for safety but only finding fear. Forcing ourselves to walk towards the source of fear while our own bodies and minds are telling us to turn away. This kind of gut-twisting tension within that we experience as children can stay with us well into our adulthood if we never find a way to identify it, or work through it or process it. Because you have mentioned both a difficult parenting situation, as well as the backdrop of the local church, I think I would recommend counseling/therapy to you regarding these two things in particular, if you haven't done so already. (Keep in mind I’m not diagnosing anything here, and I’m not a medical professional recommending this to you. I’m just a person.) I frankly think that every person on the planet could benefit from counseling at some point, so you’re just a normal part of the human race on this one. If you try counseling, you will know when you’ve found a good counselor. It may be hard to find one that really understands the type of church the LC is, but it’s worth finding someone who does because it sounds like that informed your parents’ parenting style. If a counselor makes you feel bad or worse, drop them like they are hot. I asked around for recommendations in looking for mine, and found one that I can bring up horrible things I would rather keep in a dark corner to, and yet receive only understanding, compassion, and grace in return. That’s what you are looking for in a counselor. Anyway, sorry I missed the parent aspect before. Hope some of this helps or aligns with your experience in some way. Trapped

10-23-2020, 05:32 PM	#5
ISeeCrazyPeople Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 20	Re: Did you also have a difficult childhood in the LC? Wow, I really appreciate all of the new comments on here. I read some of them earlier than this, but have not had a chance to reply until now. Even now, I wish I would have the time to read and respond more thoroughly, but I’ve been even more rushed than usual lately. Trapped, Thank you for all of your thoughtful words. They do really hit home for me. To this day, I do not feel close with my parents. I wish I could be comfortable with them and share feelings.. or discuss anything beyond small talk. It’s not something I can just change. They have changed a little bit over time but not much. I think for me to become comfortable with them, they would have to express some regret for raising us in the church and I guess just for the way they raised us in general. I see another poster (aron), who advised forgiveness. I suppose I have forgiven them in a way. But it doesn’t really change our relationship much. I still feel very uncomfortable around them. I spent my childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood feeling scared and controlled by them. I can’t just flip a switch and change that. I have tried to be upfront with them before, but somehow it always backfires on me. My current approach is to not bring up anything confrontational around them. But yes, even though I say I’m agnostic, Trapped, I see your point about how this could influence my relationship with God. I do think I need to see a therapist. And I also really appreciate the books you and another poster (Curious) have suggested. Curious, I will address you in this post as well since I’m crunched for time. Thank you for your post. I feel validated when people understand what I’m going through, which is really nice. It is kind of funny in a way… If I want my children to be safe I really can hardly have a break for “me time” these days. Some of this is due to the pandemic. It’s also their age. But I like your advice about just reading a little bit each day. Also, Trapped, This part you mentioned especially rang true for me: “As kids we play but get agitated if mom leaves the room. On the playground we wander away but look back to make sure mom is still watching us and smiling. As we grow we become more and more independent from our parents, but it’s within the framework of knowing we are safe in their hands. But when our parents are authoritarian, strict, restricting, condemning, then what is supposed to be our source of safety also becomes a source of fear and feeling unsettled. And as children, we have no one else to turn to in order to get away from that fear. So we grow up in a way we aren’t supposed to – having to turn towards the person who also wounds us, and having to trust the person who we don’t feel safe with in the way we are supposed to.” Wow. This is exactly how I felt and pretty much still feel. I have tried counseling in the past, but not necessarily for these issues. I also didn’t get much help from it, but I’m not opposed to trying it again. Maybe I just need to find the right counselor, like you say. This is all I have time for. Thanks again guys!