Was Day Star poor judgment or fraud?

[ZNPaaneah]

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

[Cal]

Many things that start out simply as poor judgment end up being frauds.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

ZNP, I'd say neither. From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship. I believe it was more fateful timing than poor judgment or fraud. In response to your questions;
1. NO
2. NO
3. Not that I ever heard of.
4. Who knows who all the investors were? My dad and another brother I know who invested did recoup their investment.
5. NO

[UntoHim]

Guys,
This has been discussed at length here on the forum. Could one of you please find the thread that is most applicable and lets continue this conversation there. Thanks

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

ZNP, I'd say neither. From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship. I believe it was more fateful timing than poor judgment or fraud. In response to your questions;
1. NO
2. NO
3. Not that I ever heard of.
4. Who knows who all the investors were? My dad and another brother I know who invested did recoup their investment.
5. NO

If WL had hired Ernst and Young to do a thorough audit of the firm after its demise and then made the report available to every church involved he would have been able to argue that this was not fraud. Perhaps they would have found errors made and perhaps this would have exposed WL and his sons as incompetent businessmen but no one would be able to accuse him of fraud. However, he didn't do that. This suggests he was hiding something.

The fact that two brothers complained that the business practices were not legitimate, he ignored them and they quit tells me that there are other brothers who did know what was going on and agree that it was not kosher. In essence, where there is smoke there is fire.

The fact that his son PL who was involved in the failed venture and by all accounts is not someone suitable to run a Christian ministry, then became the business manager at the LSM is quite alarming to me. I would think that one of the lessons that should have been learned from DayStar was not to mix church business with family business. This suggests to me that there was no repentance. This is supported by the fact that something similar caused his exodus from Taiwan. Again, there does not appear to be any repentance. This is supported by the fact that many of the allegations against WN were of embezzelment. Time and time again WL appears to be closely linked to fraud without any evidence of repentance.

The fact that PL, the philanderer, was valuable enough to protect that WL had Max excommunicated and fabricated the Sister's rebellion as a smokescreen suggests to me a coverup. That is evidence of fraud.

Secret bank accounts to pay back some creditors is also evidence of fraud.

Replacing JI, AK, JS, BM, etc. with the Texas cohort is evidence of how valuable PL was. PL being this valuable is inexplicable unless he kept secrets that were more valuable to WL than the LRC. This to me is evidence that WL was a fraud.

Publishing a book that is a whitewash of the events is evidence of a coverup and suggests a fraud.

WL fabricating a story about WN is evidence of deceit. WL founding the church in the US based on WN's teachings in TNCCL and then in 1974 abandoning key principles without any explanation suggests deceit to me. WL putting a philanderer into an important ministry position suggests a deceitful man.

To me all the evidence tells me the man was a fraud. So far the only case made to the contrary is that people "don't feel" he was a fraud. Where is the evidence?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

ZNP, I'd say neither. From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship. I believe it was more fateful timing than poor judgment or fraud.

Timing was a problem. Who could have anticipated the oil embargo. But as I understand it, the manufacturer was virtually guaranteed a profit while the sales company (what all the members invested in) pre-purchased their inventory and were stuck with it.

But I saw one of the first Daystars arrive in Dallas. Came to someone's house on Buckner Blvd in the Casa Linda area. I was there with some others waiting to see it. Bob Bynum drove it up and turned it off and it took almost 30 seconds for the brand new engine to stop dieseling.

The insides were something with their fancy wood. And that hand-hammered, stainless shell shell looked impressive. But pictures of one seen recently was pretty sad. Lots of signs of rust.

I do not know if the craftsmanship was actually so good. But the materials were top-of-the-line for the time.

[OBW]

Z,

You first question is the one that is most significant to me. It is the fact that it was promoted. It was a solicitation to invest. I believe that means it is subject to SEC rules. And there is no indication that they even allowed any state to know that the companies involved existed. No registrations. Therefore they skirted (illegally) all of the rules.

Therefore, the promotion could not be above reproach because it would appear that the whole thing was done in a manner full of reproach. Full of deceit.

And the alleged fact that the companies were not registered anywhere would indicate that they never had to reflect why they ceased filing anything. They just quit operating. Someone suggested that they did not file bankruptcy. That is probably because that would bring the companies into the light. And these companies needed darkness, not light. No. They just stopped operating.

That is my opinion based on the observations and reporting of many others in the threads here and on the Bereans that have covered it in the past. I cannot verify their accuracy. I lost nothing on it. Too young to have anything to invest. But my dad did. But I think he figured it would never make a return anyway and considered it gone when he wrote the check. But not too many could take that position.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Z,

You first question is the one that is most significant to me. It is the fact that it was promoted. It was a solicitation to invest. I believe that means it is subject to SEC rules. And there is no indication that they even allowed any state to know that the companies involved existed. No registrations. Therefore they skirted (illegally) all of the rules.

Therefore, the promotion could not be above reproach because it would appear that the whole thing was done in a manner full of reproach. Full of deceit.

And the alleged fact that the companies were not registered anywhere would indicate that they never had to reflect why they ceased filing anything. They just quit operating. Someone suggested that they did not file bankruptcy. That is probably because that would bring the companies into the light. And these companies needed darkness, not light. No. They just stopped operating.

That is my opinion based on the observations and reporting of many others in the threads here and on the Bereans that have covered it in the past. I cannot verify their accuracy. I lost nothing on it. Too young to have anything to invest. But my dad did. But I think he figured it would never make a return anyway and considered it gone when he wrote the check. But not too many could take that position.

Excellent, thanks for this very lucid account. From the very beginning this investment was done in a way that was not legitimate. If this had been registered with the SEC then they would have been required to promote it and offer it only to qualified investors which the vast majority within the LRC were not.

Also, only a fool would think that it was a coincidence that the investment WL had was "guaranteed" to make money while the investment that the LRC took had 100% of the risk.

Had this been done properly at the start it would be evidence that it wasn't a scam from the get go, but there is no evidence of that. Again, all of the evidence points to fraud.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

From everything I've read on Daystar as an RV, there are very few RV's that could measure up to the Daystar's craftmanship.

Yup ... superb craftsmanship!



Daystar is listed with a collection of Old & Unusual Motorhomes.

Caption says, "This 1975 Daystar, with a luxurious teak wood interior, is one of only 16 made by Daystar Motorhomes of Compton Cal. Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?"

Another site had this caption, "The Daystar, built in 1975, utilized a Dodge chassis as a foundation for its design. The eye-catching design boasted an all COR-TEN steel body and teak interior and purportedly sold over $70,000. Only 16 were ever built, making this unique motor-home one of the rarest ever built."



Caption on this pic say, "Included as it appears older. Amazing old world craftsmanship evident in the full teak interior. This Daystar is 1 of 16 ever made. Owner's uncle won it in a poker game back in '76. Actually, he won a Cessna - then proceeded to fly the plane having never done so. And drunk. Crashed the plane attempting to take off, then traded the Cessna for the Daystar. All in ONE night!

Still runs. Could use some refreshing after a homeless man called it home for a spell."

Another site said, "The Daystar came into being desiring to be the premier motorhome of the age. Everything was done in five-star class. 24 karat gold plated faucets in the bath. Genuine Italian marble or onyx vanity tops. 100% virgin wool carpet AND, at the time the only full size bath tub in any motorhome on the market.

At the Los Angeles RV show in '74 or '75 a woman was seen exiting the Daystar, weeping. When asked why she was crying, she said that she had just bought a Barth at well over $100,000 and it was not nearly as well appointed as the Daystar.

They were custom finished to the buyers specs. The Texas model was sold to an avid University of Texas alumni and sported bucksin leather seats, and a burnt orange and white paint job among other things."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yup ... superb craftsmanship!



Daystar is listed with a collection of Old & Unusual Motorhomes.

Caption says, "This 1975 Daystar, with a luxurious teak wood interior, is one of only 16 made by Daystar Motorhomes of Compton Cal. Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?"

By comparison here is a link to a 1976 Winnebago which probably sold for half the cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3xSyhpyB_E

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another site had this caption, "The Daystar, built in 1975, utilized a Dodge chassis as a foundation for its design. The eye-catching design boasted an all COR-TEN steel body and teak interior and purportedly sold over $70,000. Only 16 were ever built, making this unique motor-home one of the rarest ever built."

Caption on this pic say, "Included as it appears older. Amazing old world craftsmanship evident in the full teak interior. This Daystar is 1 of 16 ever made. Owner's uncle won it in a poker game back in '76. Actually, he won a Cessna - then proceeded to fly the plane having never done so. And drunk. Crashed the plane attempting to take off, then traded the Cessna for the Daystar. All in ONE night!"

Another site said, "The Daystar came into being desiring to be the premier motorhome of the age. Everything was done in five-star class. 24 karat gold plated faucets in the bath. Genuine Italian marble or onyx vanity tops. 100% virgin wool carpet AND, at the time the only full size bath tub in any motorhome on the market.

At the Los Angeles RV show in '74 or '75 a woman was seen exiting the Daystar, weeping. When asked why she was crying, she said that she had just bought a Barth at well over $100,000 and it was not nearly as well appointed as the Daystar.

They were custom finished to the buyers specs. The Texas model was sold to an avid University of Texas alumni and sported bucksin leather seats, and a burnt orange and white paint job among other things."

I'm not buying the prevailing thinking that the energy crisis was Daystar's demise. Folks who can afford teak, gold, and marble, care little for gas prices. Daystar was to be the Motorhome Of The Age (MOTA). Perhaps Daystar should have been renamed "MOTAhome" or "mobileMOTA."

Surfin' the web showed how these things have become collector's items of sorts. Among motorhome aficionados, this thing has reached celebrity status. CorTen steel never rusts. These "bodies" will last till the New Jerusalem. Look what one guy did ... he even modified that horrendous front grill. Looks like a fire truck.





I'm surprised LSM hasn't bought a vintage Daystar to place on display at their new campus facility. Think about the caption, "MOTA that launched LSM." They could post pictures of Timothy Lee, the first president, along with that pretty sister in a bikini who modeled the MOTA. Why would Bibles For America staff cruise the country in a competitor's second class motor home? Have they no shame? Have they forgotten their rich heritage?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Daystar was to be the Motorhome Of The Age (MOTA).


I'm surprised LSM hasn't bought a vintage Daystar to place on display at their new campus facility. Think about the caption, "MOTA that launched LSM." They could post pictures of Timothy Lee, the first president, along with that pretty sister in a bikini who modeled the MOTA. Why would Bibles For America staff cruise the country in a competitor's second class motor home? Have they no shame? Have they forgotten their rich heritage?

[Cal]

The metaphorical value is striking.

Unique. Ambitious. Ill-advised. Obscure. Bizarre. Surface appeal hides deep flaws. Sought by those seeking to be different. Ignored by those who know better. A shadow of its former self. A blip in history. Destined for the junk heap.

Yep. Sounds like LSM alright.




Caption: One used very weird ministry for sale. Once considered the MOTA. Relive the glorious 70s. Cheap.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

But as I understand it, the manufacturer was virtually guaranteed a profit while the sales company (what all the members invested in) pre-purchased their inventory and were stuck with it.

Is this correct that WL and his sons were not invested in the sales company which bore all of the risk but were invested in the manufacturing end? They guaranteed themselves a profit?

Ezekiel
34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD to the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Also, only a fool would think that it was a coincidence that the investment WL had was "guaranteed" to make money while the investment that the LRC took had 100% of the risk.

Had this been done properly at the start it would be evidence that it wasn't a scam from the get go, but there is no evidence of that. Again, all of the evidence points to fraud.

Speaking to brothers who were in investment meetings, I don't recall the word risk ever being used. Rather their investment was guaranteed a return.

I don't see Daystar as a fraud. It was done apparently skirting business laws. If Daystar was a fraud, no one would have been compensated for their investment.
Can you say it was mismanaged?
Can you say it lacked transparency?
Can you say it was illegal?

TR said so and for TR's function as a whistleblower, JB had him removed from fellowship.

What doesn't sit well with people who knew about Daystar can be said about other companies that get mismanaged and ran into the ground.....Enron, Washington Mutual, Albertson's, etc. Investors and employees lose out while the CEO's get a lucrative package.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't see Daystar as a fraud. It was done apparently skirting business laws. If Daystar was a fraud, no one would have been compensated for their investment.
Can you say it was mismanaged?
Can you say it lacked transparency?
Can you say it was illegal?

TR said so and for TR's function as a whistleblower, JB had him removed from fellowship.

Would that be Terry Reisenhoover and James Barber?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

This event probably revealed both. But if the early American LC brothers had done their homework it would have been no surprise. The truth is that they didn't want to know the truth about Witness Lee. They liked what he was selling, so they buried their heads in the sand. The fact is that there were a number of older brothers and sisters from the early days in mainland China who knew what Lee was all about. Had these early American LC brothers (Gruhler, Ingalls, Barber et al, et al) done their due diligence, they would have found out that the Daystar deal was not Witness Lee's first trip to the rodeo. He had been there and done that several times before...thus the acting god could be callous enough to tell people who had lost their life savings that "oh well, you just lost your virginity!".

But I digress....
The loss of live savings, my dear brothers and sisters, is a mere pittance to the real thievery of Witness Lee (easy for me to say....I lost not a shekel). Nonetheless, "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Pretty heavy duty, I know. But think about it. Daystar, Linko, cheap plastic chairs, tennis rackets.....what if they all went bankrupt...what if they all did fantastically well and all the "investors" became fabulously wealthy? What will it profit a man?

I would submit to you all that if you combined all the hair brained schemes of Witness Lee, and totaled up all the monetary damage done by him and his sons, they would not compare to the spiritual and psychological damage done to the littlest of brothers and sisters. Life savings can be earned back. Actual lives cannot be earned back. Only by God's infinite mercy, amazing grace and supernatural, resurrection power can the damage be repaired. This is what it's ALL ABOUT my dear friends. If it can't happen here, if it can't happen now then we are just wasting our time. More importantly we are wasting God's time (if that's actually possible).

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't see Daystar as a fraud. It was done apparently skirting business laws. If Daystar was a fraud, no one would have been compensated for their investment.

Fraud refers to wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial gain.

The fact that some were compensated does not in any way negate the possibility of it being a fraud.

I think the facts are clear, as Untohim has pointed out, that WL had many schemes designed to result in financial gain. If he used wrongful or criminal deception then it is fraud.

I am a licensed stock broker and the way in which DayStar was peddled was clearly criminal.

Personally I cannot understand the reluctance for others to realize WL was a fraud.

Section 202(a)(11) of the Advisers Act generally defines an "investment adviser" as any person or firm that: (1) for compensation; (2) is engaged in the business of; (3) providing advice, making recommendations, issuing reports, or furnishing analyses on securities, either directly or through publications.

Was WL compensated? Yes. Was he engaged in the business? Yes. Did he make recommendations and/or provide advice? Yes.

He didn't "skirt" the law. He broke the law.

Section 206 of the Advisers Act prohibits misstatements or misleading omissions of material facts and other fraudulent acts and practices in connection with the conduct of an investment advisory business. As a fiduciary, an investment adviser owes its clients undivided loyalty, and may not engage in activity that conflicts with a client's interest without the client's consent. In S.E.C. v. Capital Gains Research Bureau, Inc., 375 U.S. 180 (1963), the United States Supreme Court held that, under Section 206, advisers have an affirmative obligation of utmost good faith and full and fair disclosure of all material facts to their clients, as well as a duty to avoid misleading them. Section 206 applies to all firms and persons meeting the Advisers Act's definition of investment adviser, whether registered with the Commission, a state securities authority, or not at all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Speaking to brothers who were in investment meetings, I don't recall the word risk ever being used. Rather their investment was guaranteed a return.

I don't see Daystar as a fraud. It was done apparently skirting business laws. If Daystar was a fraud, no one would have been compensated for their investment.

The ones who were compensated for their Daystar investment were those who screamed the loudest. Those brothers who wanted a "future" in the Recovery, however, knew that they must "forgive and forget" and suffer in silence. That would not be the last time they would be short-changed on Lee's "promises" of God's abundant blessing upon all his endeavors.

Lee set up a secret account in Dallas in order to funnel money to those investors in exchange for their silence. Then Lee allowed his son Phillip to begin selling his ministry. Many brothers protested this initially, but it turned out to be quite lucrative for LSM. If WL was as honorable and righteous as he proclaimed he was, he would have reimbursed every last investor. Some of these investors were still paying off their Daystar investment loans long after LSM became such a cash cow.

Titus Chu had an fascinating relationship with WL related to all their many "moves" and "flows." The midwest had nearly no investment into Daystar. This disturbed all the ambitious zealots rising to prominence in the Recovery. They felt Titus should share in the pain, and not just the blessings of Lee's rich ministry. Obviously Titus knew of Lee's history of failed church businesses. Even after Daystar, numerous "flows" would hit the area, and Titus would present the attitude, "we would love to be a part of whatever Brother Lee is doing, but we don't have any money."

When it came to all the many movements and winds of teaching emanating from Anaheim over the years, Titus only did the absolute minimum to keep Lee content. All the lackeys surrounding Lee knew that Titus was really not on board with them, in fact Titus had little respect for any of them.

[TLFisher]

In regard to Daystar, thanks ZNP. I cannot speak for others, but I was uninformed regarding these laws.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

1. I would say no. You can look at the legal requirements and fiduciary responsibility and see that this is clearly no.
2. No. On the contrary, those in the know who protested were booted. It is my feeling that the reason PL was so critical to the WL that he was put in charge of LSM was that he did know what happened at Daystar.
3. No.
4. No. The idea that secret payments were paid to some is outrageous and fraudulent.
5. No.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Daystar is a critical event in the early history of the LRC in the USA. This event should reveal whether WL merely had poor business acumen or was a fraud.

In looking at this case I would like to focus on WL's actions, not his words.

1. As a business venture promoted to the Saints was this done legitimately, in a way that was above reproach?
2. Was the business carried out in a way that was fully transparent and beyond reproach?
3. When the business failed was a complete and thorough audit done by an independent auditor so that there would be no appearance of evil?
4. Was restitution made so that even though the business suffered a loss, this loss was shared equally by all investors?
5. Was there a public reflection on the errors made with a thorough repentance so that these errors were not repeated?

To me these are the five requirements I have for a man of faith who makes an error due to bad judgment.

I always say the same thing about our current administration -- pay no attention to what they say, rather watch what they do.

Corruption in politics is difficult enough to swallow, and how much more in the church of God. Since Witness Lee continually judged the failures in Christianity and constantly proclaimed that his ministry was built solely upon the death and resurrection of Christ and pure and free from any of the degradations of the rest of the body of Christ, (kind of like that recent claim I heard about having the most "transparent" administration in American history) the numerous reproaches surrounding Daystar are particularly egregious.

Since I believed that Witness Lee was a special oracle from God for the best 30 years of my life, it was especially hard for me to finally accept that Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministry were just as corrupt as so many other ministries making it into Christian tabloids. Then I read about that first elders/workers conference in January 1974 in the heyday of the Daystar debacle, in which Witness Lee enacted numerous controls over all the other leaders and local churches, and my delusions of being a part of God's "unique testimony" vaporized.

Yes, Lee had received some unique teachings gleaned from his days with the Brethren and Watchman Nee, but no, his ministry was not above reproach. In fact, starting at this point going forward, there was little else but reproach when it came to handling the things of God. There is overwhelming evidence that WL and LSM did not just exercise bad judgment and make a few mistakes. Rather they continually displayed an attitude that they were above the law, and worse, they were entitled to write new law.

In my mind, the way Witness Lee treated those who voiced legitimate concerns based on the word of God is no different than the way our current administration has used the IRS to intimidate and silence their opposition.

Rotten politics at LSM? Absolutely!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I always say the same thing about our current administration -- pay no attention to what they say, rather watch what they do.

Corruption in politics is difficult enough to swallow, and how much more in the church of God.

In my mind, the way Witness Lee treated those who voiced legitimate concerns based on the word of God is no different than the way our current administration has used the IRS to intimidate and silence their opposition.

Rotten politics at LSM? Absolutely!

Case and point last November when Ron Kangas and James Lee came to the NW. As with the current administration, spoke a good word, but what about what they do? No doubt if brother Ron knew where I'm visiting in August, he'll give a good word to have me excluded from fellowship just as brother James did to the Sandovals in Vista, CA.
Back to Ohio's post. Americans generally think politicians are corrupt. I won't say all are, but if you are a genuine public servant, your politically ambitions will not succeed because you're not corrupt. Pertaining to the Local Churches, it's been said the "there's no politics in the churchlife". I care enough to voice my disagreement with that concept. Ideally there should be no politics, but there is. If there was no politics certain brothers would not be "quarantined" or "disfellowshipped" for being politically incorrect. Because if there's no politics in the churchlife, there would be no cause to be politically incorrect. There would be no cause for current "muckrakers" to write.
Just like the current administration has done with Associated Press, LSM would love to do with all those who participate on this forum. It's been said "in the churchlife there is no democracy". Yes, that's a statement I can agree has been true.
I do believe regardless where the posters and the lurkers meet for fellowship, there is a genuine desire as Christians to hold to a higher standard than secular society. If LSM claim they are not an organization, but part of an organism, the standards and expectations of LSM should be held much higher than echoeing paths of secular society.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

I do believe regardless where the posters and the lurkers meet for fellowship, there is a genuine desire as Christians to hold to a higher standard than secular society. If LSM claim they are not an organization, but part of an organism, the standards and expectations of LSM should be held much higher than echoeing paths of secular society.

Judgment begins at the house of God.

Our destiny, as Christians, is to rule. However it is absurd to think that we are fit for the job if we have the same corruption we see in the present day leaders.

We see what happens to brothers who have a ministry, TC, John Meyers, etc. Do we really think the LRC is any better than the US Govt using the IRS to shut down political organizations?

We see the way the LRC has done a whitewash of their history. Do we really think they are any better than what was done with regards to Bengazi?

We have discussed the abusive way in which members are treated in the LRC. Are they really capable of fixing issues like the backlog in veterans claims?

This is why these issues matter and need to be resolved in the church. If we can't deal with WL and PL then how could we ever deal with corruption in the government or a despot?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is why these issues matter and need to be resolved in the church. If we can't deal with WL and PL then how could we ever deal with corruption in the government or a despot?

Every human leader needs scrutiny and oversight to prevent the abuse of power. Our public leaders supposedly are monitored by the freedom of the press and congressional oversight. These are absolutely essential to limit the abuse of power.

Likewise church leaders also must be under careful scrutiny and wise oversight that the church be preserved blameless. The New Testament devotes an incredible amount of time to identify those characteristics of healthy leaders. Whole books were even written to this end -- I Timothy and Titus. Whole books were also written to expose rotten leaders -- 2 Peter and Jude.

Witness Lee undermined these healthy scriptural checks and balances by introducing the errant doctrine of "deputy authority." Lee's teachings about deputy authority exist no where in the New testament. Not one verse in the Bible justifies the abuses of rotten leaders with claims to "deputy authority." Witness Lee and his minions, however, would introduce these teachings, apparently endorsed by Watchman Nee, whenever scandals such as Daystar or Philip Lee's indiscretions became public.

Using the stories of Noah cursing Ham and Moses marrying a heathen woman, Lee was able to intimidate "the press" into believing that God's judgment would swiftly strike any brother or sister who dared to address crimes at LSM. Just expressing an opinion like Meriam did would cause instant leprosy! For those at LSM who should have provided needed oversight, "covering the nakedness of Noah" translated into a bunch of ostriches burying their heads when confronting lies, theft, fraud, abuse, rape and adultery. Francis Ball actually once boasted of this. He spoke for every one of today's Blended Brothers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every human leader needs scrutiny and oversight to prevent the abuse of power. Our public leaders supposedly are monitored by the freedom of the press and congressional oversight. These are absolutely essential to limit the abuse of power.

3 key legs to democracy, all under attack.

1. Freedom of the press (illegal wiretaps of reporters)
2. Congressional oversight (whitewash of reports)
and
3. Right to form parties (IRS scandal of political groups)

We saw the same thing in the LRC

Awareness story is a good example of the spying that went on in the LRC.
They published their own whitewash reports.
They prohibit anyone from having a ministry (TC and John Meyers for example)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

3 key legs to democracy, all under attack.

1. Freedom of the press (illegal wiretaps of reporters)
2. Congressional oversight (whitewash of reports)
and
3. Right to form parties (IRS scandal of political groups)

We saw the same thing in the LRC

When one says "we are God's move on the earth", shouldn't you have and hold yourself to higher standards than any earthly government? One that at least is indicative of transparency and accountability.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

When one says "we are God's move on the earth", shouldn't you have and hold yourself to higher standards than any earthly government? One that at least is indicative of transparency and accountability.

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Witness Lee undermined these healthy scriptural checks and balances by introducing the errant doctrine of "deputy authority." Lee's teachings about deputy authority exist no where in the New testament. Not one verse in the Bible justifies the abuses of rotten leaders with claims to "deputy authority." Witness Lee and his minions, however, would introduce these teachings, apparently endorsed by Watchman Nee, whenever scandals such as Daystar or Philip Lee's indiscretions became public.

Witness Lee would countenance no peers. His model of "the work" was himself as an apostle with the status of a Paul while his coworkers had the status of a Titus or Timothy who he could give dictates to and expect them to be followed. This practice was propped up with MOTA and deputy authority teachings.

He was the boss of "the work". Period. If you crossed him you were "fired". In some instances this meant coworkers of many years were put out on the street (kicked out of church housing) while their incomes dried up almost instantly.

Of course having no peers and having cultivated no replacement when he died what was the LC system to do? Where was the new MOTA? Solution: Brothers We! Oh now we can have a group of peers. Peers doing what? Repeating Witness Lee messages and policing the LC system to make sure everyone is following along with the LSM dictates. The whole thing is kinda pathetic when you think about it.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

He was the boss of "the work". Period. If you crossed him you were "fired". In some instances this meant coworkers of many years were put out on the street (kicked out of church housing) while their incomes dried up almost instantly.

I don't have my hymnal with me today, but I recall a hymn singing about every local churches administration being local. If that's the case how can a co-worker/elder be kicked out of church housing?
Does the local church own the homes to support their full-timers or does the ministry?
If the administration of the local church is indeed local, then LSM could not expect tellowship to issue in a full-timer becoming homeless.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't have my hymnal with me today, but I recall a hymn singing about every local churches administration being local. If that's the case how can a co-worker/elder be kicked out of church housing?
Does the local church own the homes to support their full-timers or does the ministry?
If the administration of the local church is indeed local, then LSM could not expect fellowship to issue in a full-timer becoming homeless.

"Local" administration was the greatest of farces. Even Witness Lee said the administration of local elders includes such things as deciding what time to pray. Imagine that! Talk about important decisions!

The Work, however, trumps all decisions of the elders. Leading workers will coerce the other elders to remove that elder from church housing, or their eldership will be revoked, and new elders will be appointed who will remove that elder from church housing.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't have my hymnal with me today, but I recall a hymn singing about every local churches administration being local. If that's the case how can a co-worker/elder be kicked out of church housing?
Does the local church own the homes to support their full-timers or does the ministry?
If the administration of the local church is indeed local, then LSM could not expect tellowship to issue in a full-timer becoming homeless.

IMHO it was quite naive for elders and/or coworkers to rely on their income or housing from any church beholden to Witness Lee. Which was basically all of them. It put them in a very precarious position.

Titus Chu was smart enough to have outside sources of income and to make Cleveland and other churches beholden to him. This left Witness Lee as a kind of figurehead with no real influence or power in GLA unless it went through Titus.

But let's say Titus didn't do this. To my knowledge he lives in a home that is owned by The Church in Cleveland on the back of the property where the meeting hall is. If not before certainly after Whistler he would have been tossed to the curb. If the LSM execs could have found a way to influence the eldership there or a majority of those who control the assets of the church to go along with their quarantine scheme Titus Chu would be gone in short order. Imagine at his age being kicked out of his home especially if didn't have other sources of income!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

IMHO it was quite naive for elders and/or coworkers to rely on their income or housing from any church beholden to Witness Lee. Which was basically all of them. It put them in a very precarious position.

Hence....."WE'RE WITNESS LEE'S COMPANY!"

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

IMHO it was quite naive for elders and/or coworkers to rely on their income or housing from any church beholden to Witness Lee. Which was basically all of them. It put them in a very precarious position.

Titus Chu was smart enough to have outside sources of income and to make Cleveland and other churches beholden to him. This left Witness Lee as a kind of figurehead with no real influence or power in GLA unless it went through Titus.

But let's say Titus didn't do this. To my knowledge he lives in a home that is owned by The Church in Cleveland on the back of the property where the meeting hall is. If not before certainly after Whistler he would have been tossed to the curb. If the LSM execs could have found a way to influence the eldership there or a majority of those who control the assets of the church to go along with their quarantine scheme Titus Chu would be gone in short order. Imagine at his age being kicked out of his home especially if didn't have other sources of income!

It is all part and parcel of the whole "slave of God" gig. If you are unable to live by faith then you have no business being a slave of Jesus Christ. I think He said the birds have nests, the foxes have holes, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Titus Chu was smart enough to have outside sources of income and to make Cleveland and other churches beholden to him. This left Witness Lee as a kind of figurehead with no real influence or power in GLA unless it went through Titus.

But let's say Titus didn't do this. To my knowledge he lives in a home that is owned by The Church in Cleveland on the back of the property where the meeting hall is. If not before certainly after Whistler he would have been tossed to the curb. If the LSM execs could have found a way to influence the eldership there or a majority of those who control the assets of the church to go along with their quarantine scheme Titus Chu would be gone in short order. Imagine at his age being kicked out of his home especially if didn't have other sources of income!

Titus Chu only duplicated the things done in Anaheim. Since he had appointed all the elders in Cleveland, there is no way any of them would have listened to Anaheim first, and both Lee and the Blendeds knew that.

The church may own the home he now lives in, but Titus Chu owns other homes in Cleveland that the church maintains and keeps stocked with saints. Coupled with outside sources of income from motel investments, required offerings to his own ministry, and his own businesses which thrived with church volunteer labor, Titus has no concerns about income, other than no longer being able to support most of his former workers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is all part and parcel of the whole "slave of God" gig. If you are unable to live by faith then you have no business being a slave of Jesus Christ. I think He said the birds have nests, the foxes have holes, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.

You mean Jesus or the Apostles never had their own team of lawyers to silence critics?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Titus Chu only duplicated the things done in Anaheim. Since he had appointed all the elders in Cleveland, there is no way any of them would have listened to Anaheim first, and both Lee and the Blendeds knew that.

Absolutely and that is why there was so much friction eventually resulting in a division. Titus Chu knew how Witness Lee operated and followed suit only on a smaller scale. Witness Lee served as a figurehead while Titus Chu held the real power and influence in the GLA. Once the figurehead died why would Titus bother to fiddle around with LSM staff except maybe to buy some of their books? Sure he humored them for awhile but anyone on either side who thought they would work well together was living in a dream world! What did he need them for? He's not going to take directives from Witness Lee wannabes 3000 miles away. The division was inevitable.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Absolutely and that is why there was so much friction eventually resulting in a division. Titus Chu knew how Witness Lee operated and followed suit only on a smaller scale. Witness Lee served as a figurehead while Titus Chu held the real power and influence in the GLA. Once the figurehead died why would Titus bother to fiddle around with LSM staff except maybe to buy some of their books? Sure he humored them for awhile but anyone on either side who thought they would work well together was living in a dream world! What did he need them for? He's not going to take directives from Witness Lee wannabes 3000 miles away. The division was inevitable.

Titus Chu has supporters around the globe will to back him as the next MOTA. I was told that saints in Taiwan were claiming "Nee-Lee-Chu" after Lee passed.

Titus felt that he was the more spiritual and purer form of the Recovery, and he hoped to one day "clean house" in Anaheim. That is why he stuck around. Sure Lee said some rotten things about Titus, but Titus only viewed that as "fellowship" from a loving father for his perfection, just as supposedly Nee perfected Lee by continually rebuking him.

Once Chicago flip-flopped their allegiance, Benson Philips seized the opportunity to eliminate his rival.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You mean Jesus or the Apostles never had their own team of lawyers to silence critics?

For a servant of Jesus to have a "team of lawyers to silence critics" is the epitome of not walking by faith.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You mean Jesus or the Apostles never had their own team of lawyers to silence critics?

Lee said his business (the publishing company) was different from his ministry. That way his ministry stayed pure white like snow even when he hired unspiritual son Philip as Office Manager of the business. The ministry stayed pure while the business could sue people.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Lee said his business (the publishing company) was different from his ministry. That way his ministry stayed pure white like snow even when he hired unspiritual son Philip as Office Manager of the business. The ministry stayed pure while the business could sue people.

Hypocrisy.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Lee said his business (the publishing company) was different from his ministry. That way his ministry stayed pure white like snow even when he hired unspiritual son Philip as Office Manager of the business. The ministry stayed pure while the business could sue people.

LOL! Maybe this was his twisted logic at some point way back when but by the time The New Way came along the overt teaching and expected practice was: to be one with Witness Lee and "the" ministry you have to be one with The Ministry Office and it's GM/Philip Lee i.e. "top coworker". Those who would not adhere to this sordid scheme left or were tossed out and vilified. Those who accepted and promoted it now run LSM.

[TLFisher]

Exasperating! Not the concept, but that saints would actually subscribe to the notion the ministry aspect of LSM and the business aspect of LSM are distinct. Of course with brother Lee being gone, I have to keep the content in present tense with the blended brothers being the ones at the helm of LSM. Of course the argument can be made decision making is also distinct from the ministry. As to say “therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them”.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Terry

Exasperating! Not the concept, but that saints would actually subscribe to the notion the ministry aspect of LSM and the business aspect of LSM are distinct. Of course with brother Lee being gone, I have to keep the content in present tense with the blended brothers being the ones at the helm of LSM. Of course the argument can be made decision making is also distinct from the ministry. As to say “therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them”.

As a former Daystar investor, I did not recieve my money back. We were "guilt tripped" in a meeting to "forgive" Lee and walk away from our "investment". In the grand scheme, my investment was tiny. To me, it was a lot of money. I didn't have much and couldn't afford much. Looking back, I don't regret forgiving the debt, but I can't help but believe that there was plenty of money that could have and should have been returned to the saints who sacrificed for Daystar.

If it were me, I would not sleep until I paid back every penny loaned to me by the saints, no matter the personal cost to me. The fact that the saints were willing to forgive the debt (and DID forgive the debt) would only make me more determined to pay them back. The fact that Lee let the common folks shoulder the burden for his selfishness makes a clear statement about who the man Witness Lee really was...his character, his integrity (or lack thereof), and his "spirituality". He talked the talk but fell short in walking the walk. He let someone else pay the price.

However, one sister I know had invested her entire college fund in Daystar. She had to get her money back, and she did get every penny back.

I heard years ago that at the time Daystar was dissolved, Lee was being investigated by the SEC. Investments of this sort are regulated and the Daystar operation failed to file the appropriate paperwork. (oops!) Highly oversimplified, but that's what I remember hearing years after the fact.

I believe that one day Witness Lee will repent to each of us, one by one, for his sins which he committed against us, and all the deceitful things he did to cause us to stumble. I would also like to acknowledge that I was responsible for my own actions. I was disobedient to the Lord while instead following a fallen man. I put Witness Lee and the elders first. For that, I am truly sorry.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I believe that one day Witness Lee will repent to each of us, one by one, for his sins which he committed against us

Instead when asked about the saints that lost money on Daystar Lee said, "They lost their virginity." Admitting that he screwed them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

As a former Daystar investor, I did not recieve my money back. We were "guilt tripped" in a meeting to "forgive" Lee and walk away from our "investment". In the grand scheme, my investment was tiny. To me, it was a lot of money. I didn't have much and couldn't afford much. Looking back, I don't regret forgiving the debt, but I can't help but believe that there was plenty of money that could have and should have been returned to the saints who sacrificed for Daystar.

If it were me, I would not sleep until I paid back every penny loaned to me by the saints, no matter the personal cost to me. The fact that the saints were willing to forgive the debt (and DID forgive the debt) would only make me more determined to pay them back. The fact that Lee let the common folks shoulder the burden for his selfishness makes a clear statement about who the man Witness Lee really was...his character, his integrity (or lack thereof), and his "spirituality". He talked the talk but fell short in walking the walk. He let someone else pay the price.

Many Christian leaders are just like those rotten politicians when it comes to our money. They feel it is theirs to spend as they please. Forget about the accountability and responsibility of proper stewards. Forget about the simple fact that these offerings are the Lord's. Forget about how much of scripture addresses the matter of money.

You were manipulated in a Christian meeting into "investing" in a ministry. You were "guilt-tripped" in a Christian meeting into "forgiving" their debt. You were robbed of what was to you a lot of money. You were deceived by Christian leaders who betrayed your trust. You lost out, but the Lee family lost nothing. In fact, president Timothy Lee was rewarded handsomely. At least Judas got what was coming to him for betraying his close "friend." (Psalms 55.12-14)

In the aftermath of Daystar, Lee and his new agency -- the Living Stream Ministry -- became awash in cash. They built that new place on Ball Road. Lee got a new crib down the street right next to Philip with 10 foot high walls around it. At the time Anaheim was the nicest, newest, shiniest city I had ever seen. Lee and company had a fresh start, unencumbered by all their debts to God's people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Instead when asked about the saints that lost money on Daystar Lee said, "They lost their virginity." Admitting that he screwed them.

One of the most pathetic things I have ever heard. IIRC it was Dick Taylor who asked the question.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One of the most pathetic things I have ever heard. IIRC it was Dick Taylor who asked the question.

It wasn't just pathetic bro Ohio, it revealed the true Lee, as a con man.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

It wasn't just pathetic bro Ohio, it revealed the true Lee, as a con man.

I think the correct Biblical term is "false teacher".

Why do you think it strange? We know that con men will come to try and deceive and rip off the church. The more money the more you attract the con men.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think the correct Biblical term is "false teacher".

Potato - Patato, Tomato - Tamato ... If you must. The false teacher conned us.

The outcome is the same. Timothy Lee got rich from Daystar. The Lee's were chased out of Taipei with con in their wake. And continued here.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You were manipulated in a Christian meeting into "investing" in a ministry. You were "guilt-tripped" in a Christian meeting into "forgiving" their debt. You were robbed of what was to you a lot of money. You were deceived by Christian leaders who betrayed your trust. You lost out, but the Lee family lost nothing.

To my knowledge there we 2 ways to put money into the Daystar dream:

1. investment i.e. at risk equity
2. loan with interest and terms for it to be paid back by Daystar

Once bankrupt Daystar really didn't have to pay anything back except to creditors in the order of how they were set up as lien holders until nothing was left after the liquidation i.e. those who lent money could get it back if there was anything to give back. Those with equity positions got nada.

My guess is the accounting was a mess anyways and since most of the operation was in Taiwan how the company was formally wound down is probably a mystery to all but a few.

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the aftermath of Daystar, Lee and his new agency -- the Living Stream Ministry -- became awash in cash. They built that new place on Ball Road. Lee got a new crib down the street right next to Philip with 10 foot high walls around it. At the time Anaheim was the nicest, newest, shiniest city I had ever seen. Lee and company had a fresh start, unencumbered by all their debts to God's people.

Actually it finally dawned on Witness Lee that religion was big business and instead of these other risky ventures he could turn his ministry into a very viable enterprise. Stream Publishers became LSM and the marketing began in earnest. Standing orders were established. Fees for live trainings were implemented and fees to attend local trainings to watch videos. Plus the trainings became a platform for infomercials to sell LSM products to a ready and willing audience. The same messages packaged several different ways were pitched at these events and people would stampede and line up in the back to buy, buy, buy.

Once the money started flowing into the LSM coffers Lee had documents drawn up and sent to all those who lent money to Daystar. They could either agree or not agree to forgive their loans.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Potato - Patato, Tomato - Tamato ... If you must. The false teacher conned us.

The outcome is the same. Timothy Lee got rich from Daystar. The Lee's were chased out of Taipei with con in their wake. And continued here.

It is completely different. A con man implies the church was never the church and the saints were victims of a con due to their own greed/arrogance.

A false teacher as warned by Peter/Paul and others suggests that the church was the church, and that WL and WN were merely examples of the wolves we were warned about. Hence this history is part of a continuation of the book of Acts.

WL without any doubt was a very strange "con man". Most cons are temporary, 6 months, a couple of years, etc. Even Bernie Madoff tried to have as little public exposure as possible to limit the amount of time he had to put on the con. WL's "con" was 24/7 for 50+ years. He may have deceived many of us, but without a doubt he deceived himself.

So you cannot compare WL to Paul Newman, Robert Redford or even Bernie Madoff.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is completely different. A con man implies the church was never the church and the saints were victims of a con due to their own greed/arrogance.

A false teacher as warned by Peter/Paul and others suggests that the church was the church, and that WL and WN were merely examples of the wolves we were warned about. Hence this history is part of a continuation of the book of Acts.

WL without any doubt was a very strange "con man". Most cons are temporary, 6 months, a couple of years, etc. Even Bernie Madoff tried to have as little public exposure as possible to limit the amount of time he had to put on the con. WL's "con" was 24/7 for 50+ years. He may have deceived many of us, but without a doubt he deceived himself.

So you cannot compare WL to Paul Newman, Robert Redford or even Bernie Madoff.

How about Elmer Gantry?

[Cal]

Let's not mince words. Let's understand where the other person is coming from and move on.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

How about Elmer Gantry?

I think it is fair to look at Daystar and say that WL was a con artist.

However, it is also fair to look at his entire life and work and say that it did not even remotely resemble Elmer Gantry. To my knowledge there is no allegation at all of WL being a drunk or having illicit affairs.

I think that Eli in the OT is much more illustrative of WL, much closer to the real fact, and more useful as an analogy. I also think that Balaam has some very close parallels, as you can accept that both received the word of God and spoke the word of God. I don't think the same can be said of Elmer. Besides Sinclair Lewis big claim to fame is that he hates hot dogs and sausage, are you really going to trust a guy like that?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Besides Sinclair Lewis big claim to fame is that he hates hot dogs and sausage, are you really going to trust a guy like that?

LOL ....

Did you see the movie Z? Prolly on Youtube fer free.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is completely different. A con man implies the church was never the church and the saints were victims of a con due to their own greed/arrogance.

I have a little trouble with this. Just because and elder, the founder, or a "trusted" minister turns out to be a con man has no instructive bearing on whether the organization in question is a church. Seems that if some Christians join together to "do church" however they decide that is, they are church. They may have taken their first steps already full of Jezebel-type problems, but it does not deny that they are "church."

(Of course, you do actually say "the church" rather than "a church." I have been assuming that you did not mean it in the way that the LRC typically does — that they are "the church" and the others are harlots. If I am wrong and it is what you meant, then I would say that there is no implication required. They never were something exclusive as "the church" that "implied" all others were not "the church." No con man required there. It just ain't so.)

And unless you are using the term "con" in a very narrow way, there is no requirement that people who fall prey to a con man be greedy or arrogant. It could be true, but is not presumed. The only obvious attribute for the people conned is "ignorant." Ignorant of the con. Unable to discern the truth related to the shell game playing out in front of them.

It could be greed or arrogance that causes them to ignore the warning signs. But it also could be more for the purpose of the investment (for the ministry or the churches) rather than the size of the return, therefore merely blinded from the obvious. Such as people conning others out of money by selling a service, money up front, then never producing and being nowhere to be found. That is more the result of being overly trusting and not thinking it through.

And the obvious thing is that people in the auto industry are typically unsuccessful starting up their own new auto companies. How is it that a bunch of people, none of which have any knowledge about the motor home industry other than the fact that it is about building and selling motor homes, are being accepted as viable developers of yet another new line of motor homes? Why was this not the first question asked? Because we were mostly being sold an "investment in the kingdom."

(Forget the oil embargo. Despite the glitzy interior and fancy finish, there were problems with the few that were built from day one. Without some major changes in production, they weren't going to sell more than a few of them anyway. The sudden jump in oil prices was just the final nail in the coffin.)

Yes. A bait and switch. We (allegedly) invested in the kingdom through a business that built and sold motor homes and were successful only in turning over our money to someone else without any evidence of benefit to the kingdom, the "ministry," the churches, or even our own pocketbooks.

(Note that I was a poor high school and college student at that time, so I was not invested in it at all. "We" does not actually include me.)

Of course, this is kind of funny when applied to a group that is so sure about their discernment and about everyone else's lack thereof.

Concerning the rest of your post, it is correct that any particular con typically lasts only a short time. And most of the time the same people will not fall for a second con from the same person. But this is mostly true with respect to the stranger who brings a con from the outset. There is no alternate history with the person to cloud the judgment.

With Lee, the cons could not be as flamboyant, but the results were no less real. Most of us just passed it off as a bad idea from a person trying to delve into an area that was not their forte. Since we did not have the Taiwan history in front of us, we could pass it off and let Lee continue as a minister. (Not thinking too clearly, were we. Even one such financial fiasco should have been a red flag.) But it is a shame that the truth about Daystar and all the shenanigans that went on with it were so hidden. Even such statements as that "lost their virginity" line would have really caused an uproar that they could not control. But cloak the whole thing in an "it is for the ministry" or "for the churches" banner and we too quickly stop looking so closely.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I have a little trouble with this. Just because and elder, the founder, or a "trusted" minister turns out to be a con man has no instructive bearing on whether the organization in question is a church.

The word "con man" refers to someone who uses a "confidence trick". It is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence. This is done by exploiting characteristics of the human psyche (I referred to greed or arrogance, but there are other possibilities).

To my understanding this would imply several things:

1. WL was not a genuine Christian, but always had a motive of defrauding the saints. (My current view is that he was a genuine believer who was caught up in his own error).
2. The saints were attracted to the LRC and WL, not because of Christ but due to greed, arrogance, or some other human failing. Not my experience, nor do I believe it was the experience of those I knew best.

Once again, I would defer to Witness Lee on this, he said that a counterfeit bill can be 99% correct and still a counterfeit. That to me is much more my experience. Likewise, I would compare WL to Eli, and Eli was not a "con man" he was a priest of the most high God. I would also compare WL to Balaam, the poster boy for false prophets, but a man who spoke the Lord's word and who blessed the children of Israel. According to the NT it refers to "the error of Balaam" not that Balaam was a con man.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

To my understanding this would imply several things:

1. WL was not a genuine Christian, but always had a motive of defrauding the saints.
2. The saints were attracted to the LRC and WL, not because of Christ but due to greed, arrogance, or some other human failing.

I could never agree with either of these conclusions.

1. Witness Lee absolutely, definitely, and genuinely was a beloved brother in Christ.

2. Most of the saints, especially in those early days, were attracted to the Recovery because of Christ as the Spirit infilling them through the word of God ministered in the LC's.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I could never agree with either of these conclusions.

1. Witness Lee absolutely, definitely, and genuinely was a beloved brother in Christ.

2. Most of the saints, especially in those early days, were attracted to the Recovery because of Christ as the Spirit infilling them through the word of God ministered in the LC's.

Thank you. I would consider it a great insult to think that my 20 years in the LRC was nothing but a big con.

One important reason I spend time on this forum is to deconstruct what happened, particularly how to understand WL.

Some consider him to be the "Minister of the Age"

I consider him to be a "False Teacher"

but although that is a wide range, I have yet to see any compelling argument to be made that he was a "Con Man". Yes, DayStar in my opinion was fraud, and that fraud was perpetrated by WL, hence you could say that he "conned" the saints. Yes, he probably was involved in several cons. Even so, I think it is much more illuminating to refer to him as a "false teacher" similar to Balaam, than to call him a con man similar to Elmer Gantry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

One important reason I spend time on this forum is to deconstruct what happened, particularly how to understand WL.

Some consider him to be the "Minister of the Age"

I consider him to be a "False Teacher"

I've been on board with LC "deconstruction" for almost a decade.

So far, the best scripture I have found to describe WL is Acts 20.30.

But your comments about False Teachers from 2 Peter 2.1-3 have application also.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The word "con man" refers to someone who uses a "confidence trick". It is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence. This is done by exploiting characteristics of the human psyche (I referred to greed or arrogance, but there are other possibilities).

That is why I mentioned a "narrow definition" of con man. In the most literal sense, you are correct. But, as you now acknowledge, it is frailties of the human psyche that are targeted, not simply greed or arrogance. By listing only those two, among many, you make the implication that "we" were simply asking for it. As if getting tricked is always the responsibility of the one being tricked. Might as well blame the woman for getting . . . .

Originally Posted by Ohio

I could never agree with either of these conclusions.

1. Witness Lee absolutely, definitely, and genuinely was a beloved brother in Christ.

2. Most of the saints, especially in those early days, were attracted to the Recovery because of Christ as the Spirit infilling them through the word of God ministered in the LC's.

I mostly agree with your first assessment. Lee was a brother. And as any brother should be beloved, he qualifies. But he also stands from day one in the US as something of a mixture. One that we had no basis to see or know about. Our first real hint at it was Daystar. Then it just kept rolling out in stages. (If there was anything modal in the LRC, it was the revelation of Lee, not of God.)

But your second statement concerns an area that is nothing if not cloudy. I sort of want to make a Yoda-like statement about being full of emotion, pain, uncertainty. The environment was "charged" in the early days. Was that clearly God, or emotions due to a sense of exhilaration from our direct participation in the meetings? Did Lee do anything truly spiritual that caused it, or just provide the venue for us to do as we would? Were the things he "gave" us that seemed to add to it truly spiritual or just adding to that emotional state?

I cannot make a clear analysis of it all. I'm sure that there was some truth mixed in there, along with emotion. And those "we got the right stuff" teachings surely puffed-up our emotions. Surely a mixed bag.

I would suggest that the best that the LRC ever had to offer that provided any spiritual benefit was its members, not really its teachings. It was the infilling of the Spirit in a collection of what would otherwise have been the pillars in other churches.

Then, as the emotional mix went higher, it also attracted more through the emotional lift it provided. I'm sure that you saw the collection of borderline unstable ones who came along, attracted by the environment.

I do not say that God was not among us. He is always among those who meet in his name. But not everything that we attribute to God was necessarily His doing.

And in these kinds of discussions, you step into a minefield because it is difficult to accept that things with the mantle of scripture and truth may not always be true. For example, calling on the Lord is a good thing. Even sometimes in the way of the LRC teachings. But when it becomes a kind of formula for improving your feelings, what is that? And improving feelings is not the stated goal of calling on the Lord. It is, or should be, contacting God. It is not about feelings. They may or may not change. But God is contacted. Yet if the goal is the feelings, then you have to question whether you have actually contacted God or just used a mantra to alter your perception of an unchanged reality. We did not start out in that way, but it seems clear that such things as a directive to call on the Lord jointly, three times, from the toes does nothing but chase away the lingering doubts that things like a kangaroo court in Whistler is not a spiritual activity. Did they really contact God? They said the words. Their feelings surely improved. That has to be from God, right?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So far, the best scripture I have found to describe WL is Acts 20.30..

What do you think about merchandising? Notice that Mark 11:16 says that Jesus "would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts." What would Jesus think of the incessant merchandising activities of Lee and his South American counterpart Dong?

My sense is that these were indeed repentant, "converted", born-again brothers, who got bit by the "spirit of Simon Magus", and began to desire to convert genuine Christian seeking into pecuniary relations (i.e. merchandising). Daystar is a very good example of this. But it is clearly not the only example.

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything. And my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one.

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forebearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one..

Here is a quote from Terry, which seems to confirm some of my suspicions on Lee being a merchandiser:

Originally Posted by Terry

Having read portions of George Henry Lang's The Churches of God, it's quite helpful and scriptural. The problem some would have is it's counterproductive to a ministry like LSM that would depend to some degree on churches as financial resources. One could assert once a church is no longer a financial resource, it needs to be "replastered" (see Leviticus 14:33-57).

Lee did and taught some seemingly good things, which seemed to make him money (i.e. book, tape, and video sales, training fees, etc). He also did some not-so-good things (i.e. Daystar) which also made him & family some money. The common denominator was making money.

According to Terry, Lee had an accepting and tolerant view of Lang's work until it threatened the money flow. Suddenly Lang was cast aside. Unprofitable, indeed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I cannot make a clear analysis of it all. I'm sure that there was some truth mixed in there, along with emotion. And those "we got the right stuff" teachings surely puffed-up our emotions. Surely a mixed bag.

I would suggest that the best that the LRC ever had to offer that provided any spiritual benefit was its members, not really its teachings. It was the infilling of the Spirit in a collection of what would otherwise have been the pillars in other churches.

I do not say that God was not among us. He is always among those who meet in his name. But not everything that we attribute to God was necessarily His doing.

For example, calling on the Lord is a good thing. Even sometimes in the way of the LRC teachings. But when it becomes a kind of formula for improving your feelings, what is that? And improving feelings is not the stated goal of calling on the Lord. It is, or should be, contacting God. It is not about feelings. They may or may not change. But God is contacted. Yet if the goal is the feelings, then you have to question whether you have actually contacted God or just used a mantra to alter your perception of an unchanged reality. We did not start out in that way, but it seems clear that such things as a directive to call on the Lord jointly, three times, from the toes does nothing but chase away the lingering doubts that things like a kangaroo court in Whistler is not a spiritual activity. Did they really contact God? They said the words. Their feelings surely improved. That has to be from God, right?

Great points ... yes, hard to make a clear analysis of it all ... yes, people were often far better than teachings ... yes, God was with us ... and yes, we did not start out this way.

My conclusion is that the more Witness Lee drew men to himself, speaking perverted things, drawing the disciples away, the worse things became. That's it in a nutshell. That's exactly what the Apostle warned us of with many tears. (Acts 20.30-31) The more Witness Lee was elevated in the Recovery, the quality of spiritual life steadily deteriorated.

You mentioned calling on the name of the Lord. Who would protest this as not being spiritual? Yet, didn't the Lord warn us about vain babbling and taking His name in vain? Consider that Whistler Kangaroo Court, when everyone stood up and "called on the Lord 5x," per Dan Towles instruction. Was that not hypocrisy and vain babbling? How about John Myer's account outside that Columbus courtroom where the saints are "calling on His name" while filing property lawsuits against their brothers and sisters? Was that not taking the Lord's name in vain?

Part of the deterioration over the years was due to the departure of spiritual men who were replaced with zealots and lackeys, whose sole devotion was the furtherance of all things Witness Lee. Part of the deterioration was due to a restructuring of the diet of the common man from the word of God to the words of Witness Lee. Part of the deterioration was the departure of the anointing Spirit of God since Witness Lee had risen to prominence ahead of the Firstborn Son.

Paul's warning (Acts 20.18-36) was to "take heed, watch, remember the pattern he gave us, and to be committed to God and the word of His grace."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What do you think about merchandising?

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forbearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

In that section of Acts 20, Paul gave us a great pattern. He coveted no man's money, he worked with his own hands, he cared for the weak more than his own ministry, taking the Lord's own words that it is "more blessed to give than to receive."

Witness Lee cared little for the poor and the weak. His followers became the same. Lee was consumed with furthering his ministry and his reputation. Those ends justified many rotten "means," including Daystar and merchandizing the saints.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

What do you think about merchandising? Notice that Mark 11:16 says that Jesus "would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts." What would Jesus think of the incessant merchandising activities of Lee and his South American counterpart Dong?

My sense is that these were indeed repentant, "converted", born-again brothers, who got bit by the "spirit of Simon Magus", and began to desire to convert genuine Christian seeking into pecuniary relations (i.e. merchandising). Daystar is a very good example of this. But it is clearly not the only example.

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything. And my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one.

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forebearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

I consider this to refer to the error of Balaam.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've been on board with LC "deconstruction" for almost a decade.

So far, the best scripture I have found to describe WL is Acts 20.30.

But your comments about False Teachers from 2 Peter 2.1-3 have application also.

Acts 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

This speaks precisely about looking at what a person does, not what they say. Paul's very first word is not about what he taught, but rather about his manner of living. When someone's living does not match their teaching that should set off alarm bells. That is one lesson learned from the LRC and WL.

Unfortunately I did not learn of any conflicts between WL's words and deeds until coming to this forum, years after leaving the LRC. Likewise with WN.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I consider this to refer to the error of Balaam.

Balaam was in the OT narrative, Simon Magus in the new. Same spirit, same infection.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Part of the deterioration was due to a restructuring of the diet of the common man from the word of God to the words of Witness Lee.

This I can attest to, and was guilty of as well. It took me years, even after I stopped meeting with the "local churches", to wean myself from the voice of Witness Lee. The "interpreted word" seemingly held some fresh, potent power, and the "plain" word, uninterpreted, seemed lacking in comparison. It was as if Lee had "crystallized" the words of spirit and life and intensified them fourfold, if not sevenfold.

It took me years to get over that effect. And not without a struggle, either.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Lee did and taught some seemingly good things, which seemed to make him money (i.e. book, tape, and video sales, training fees, etc). He also did some not-so-good things (i.e. Daystar) which also made him & family some money. The common denominator was making money.

I might be in error to make such a claim, but there could be some merit to suggest LSM tolerated Titus's work while Lee was alive and after he died until reduction in revenue from the GLA going to LSM became apparent. The climax of the story being some GLA localities opting not to participate in the Harvest House lawsuit.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Balaam was in the OT narrative, Simon Magus in the new. Same spirit, same infection.

If you do a search under "trading", "merchants", and "merchandise" in one of those searchable Bibles (or a Concordance for you old-timers) it's pretty revealing what you will find. Apparently this spirit has a long and successful history.

Start with Ezekiel 27 & 28, for example. Ezekiel 28 has this:

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (KJV)

and Ezekiel 27 has this:

29 And all that handle the oar, the mariners, and all the pilots of the sea, shall come down from their ships, they shall stand upon the land;

30 And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads, they shall wallow themselves in the ashes:

31 And they shall make themselves utterly bald for thee, and gird them with sackcloth, and they shall weep for thee with bitterness of heart and bitter wailing.

32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?

33 When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise.

Which finds a direct parallel in Revelation 18:

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

The line goes from the holy mountain of God, conceivably even pre-Adamic, all the way to Revelation 18. You have a spirit that was once quite close to God, who can dazzle and bewitch even the stoutest and most capable into full engagement, and then lead them far astray, deep into the burning smoke. When you look at the trail of this spirit, suddenly Daystar does not look like such an anomaly. It looks right in place.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything.

Setting aside all the posturing and "spiritual" jargon used by all parties to justify their behavior it is indeed a trademark i.e. merchandising rights and promotion issue. Using GLA as a case in point what were the LSM staff all upset about?

1. Titus Chu dared to publish his own works.
2. Titus Chu declined to promote LSM events and dared to schedule local and regional events when LSM had an event going on.
3. Titus Chu would not take directives from the LSM who claim to be the official bonafide "trademark" owners of the Witness Lee brand i.e Titus Chu is pirating their brand.

WITNESS LEE! WITNESS LEE! WITNESS LEE!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Part of the deterioration over the years was due to the departure of spiritual men who were replaced with zealots and lackeys, whose sole devotion was the furtherance of all things Witness Lee. Part of the deterioration was due to a restructuring of the diet of the common man from the word of God to the words of Witness Lee. Part of the deterioration was the departure of the anointing Spirit of God since Witness Lee had risen to prominence ahead of the Firstborn Son.

Paul's warning (Acts 20.18-36) was to "take heed, watch, remember the pattern he gave us, and to be committed to God and the word of His grace."

Perhaps one reason I avoided much if not all of this was that my diet was always the word of God. For years I couldn't afford to waste $5 or $10 on a book I wasn't going to read. So I learned that the WL books were just a waste for me. I didn't know if that was indicative of being less spiritually mature, didn't really care. When I could afford to buy a WL book I would thumb through them but never find anything that I felt was worth the time to read.

For years it was something of a shame that I couldn't afford the "high peaks truth". Once again the Lord is found faithful.

Acts 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind

The second thing that Paul reminds us of is how he served the Lord with "all humility of mind". How is "the Seer of the divine revelation" all humility of mind? How is casting aspersions on all other Christians and saying that they have no new light "all humility of mind"? How could anyone argue that WL "served the Lord with all humility of mind"?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

What do you think about merchandising? Notice that Mark 11:16 says that Jesus "would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts." What would Jesus think of the incessant merchandising activities of Lee and his South American counterpart Dong?

My sense is that these were indeed repentant, "converted", born-again brothers, who got bit by the "spirit of Simon Magus", and began to desire to convert genuine Christian seeking into pecuniary relations (i.e. merchandising). Daystar is a very good example of this. But it is clearly not the only example.

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything. And my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one.

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forebearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

Lee was a failure at business time and time again, but came to realize that he had a captive market, and so, became a success at fleecing the sheep. Daystar wasn't the only time he "took their virginity."

Premeditated fleecing makes him a con man.

Making a belt of gold and getting caught trying to smuggle it into Taipei reveals that long before Lee came to America he had dishonesty & malice in his heart.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This speaks precisely about looking at what a person does, not what they say. Paul's very first word is not about what he taught, but rather about his manner of living. When someone's living does not match their teaching that should set off alarm bells. That is one lesson learned from the LRC and WL.

This is where Lee's handlers shielded him from the eyes of the saints. They were able to filter his misdeeds and spin them as spiritual. Being in the GLA, Titus Chu was able to characterize all those around Lee and screwups and rebels, while Lee's pristine image was always maintained as the "face" of the franchise.

To his credit, Witness Lee did live an austere, godly manner of life. Many testified of this. The problem is that his harsh condemnations of all Christianity was never challenge, and instead was viewed as "spiritual maturity." The way he treated the other leading brothers was contemptible, and yet that was viewed as profitable for their "perfecting."

Paul never treated others this way. The brothers around him witnessed the love of God displayed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I might be in error to make such a claim, but there could be some merit to suggest LSM tolerated Titus's work while Lee was alive and after he died until reduction in revenue from the GLA going to LSM became apparent. The climax of the story being some GLA localities opting not to participate in the Harvest House lawsuit.

After Lee, many, but not all, GLA saints dropped the standing order, stopped going to the "Feasts," and stopped encouraging young people to attend the FTTA.

Yet ... when it came to supporting the purchase of the La Palma campus, the GLA sent over $Million. The goal was $2K per family.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is where Lee's handlers shielded him from the eyes of the saints. They were able to filter his misdeeds and spin them as spiritual. Being in the GLA, Titus Chu was able to characterize all those around Lee and screwups and rebels, while Lee's pristine image was always maintained as the "face" of the franchise.

To his credit, Witness Lee did live an austere, godly manner of life. Many testified of this. The problem is that his harsh condemnations of all Christianity was never challenge, and instead was viewed as "spiritual maturity." The way he treated the other leading brothers was contemptible, and yet that was viewed as profitable for their "perfecting."

Paul never treated others this way. The brothers around him witnessed the love of God displayed.

Yes the misdeeds of PL and TL were shielded and I never learned of them until right before I left the LRC.

However, no one in the LRC, myself included, could argue that WL "served the Lord in all humility". This was open for all to see. Likewise, it may be that BP was blinded by his ambition to run a worldwide ministry, let the Lord judge on that, but we all to some extent or other considered ourselves "elite" Christians. It is just like the Lord said, we were invited to the feast and had the audacity to think we could sit at the head of the table, that was the sin we all need to repent of. Had it not been for that sin I doubt any of us could have been bamboozled.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Lee was a failure at business time and time again, but came to realize that he had a captive market, and so, became a success at fleecing the sheep. Daystar wasn't the only time he "took their virginity."

Premeditated fleecing makes him a con man.

Making a belt of gold and getting caught trying to smuggle it into Taipei reveals that long before Lee came to America he had dishonesty & malice in his heart.

You may be right. Madoff made his con a lifetime con. If WL was a con man it was a lifetime con. That will be for the Lord to judge. BTW do we get to spectate during the judgment? I mean will we observe how this all plays out at the Lord's throne of judgment?

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

do we get to spectate during the judgment? ...will we observe how this all plays out at the Lord's throne of judgment?

I think we do more than spectate. I think we testify. See Matthew 18:31, for instance: "When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened."

That is the reason that this forum exists: it is an attempt to tell everything that happened. I met with the LCs for years and never even heard the word Daystar. I did hear occasional remarks about "storms" and "turmoils". Once, when I was with two brothers, and one made passing reference of this, I asked to what he referred. He looked at the floor, said, "We don't talk about that", and the other looked away and said nothing.

This is "the age of man", when we can play make-believe. When the "day of the Lord" comes, I don't think it will be that easy to sustain our illusions.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

That is the reason that this forum exists: it is an attempt to tell everything that happened.

So far, bro Aron, you've only scratched the surface. You've got way more to learn. Stuff you would never learn while in the local church. They keep the sordid history of the LC hidden. And there's a vast hidden history.

Just google "hidden history of witness lee" to get started.

And I have something that would just blow your mind.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

They keep the sordid history of the LC hidden. And there's a vast hidden history.

Just google "hidden history of witness lee" to get started.

And I have something that would just blow your mind.

It would not be seemly for christians to be dragging one another through the proverbial mud, for all to see. And the Lord warned us not to judge one another, lest we ourselves fall under judgment. Surely if anyone has failed, I have also!

At the same time, if we (for instance) see a spirit of unrelieved mercantilism at work, combined with lording it over the saints and the elevation of the ministries of men, then it behooves us to sound a warning. I know that if I was dominated by such a spirit, hopefully someone would point it out before I arrived at the Judgment Seat, and gave me an opportunity to reconsider my ways.

And it's probably better, and less potentially harmful to one and all, to say, "We see the pattern of a spirit at work here", with as few sordid details as possible. Correction is the key, not ruin; enough have been stumbled already. Remember that when weaker ones see the failures of the stronger ones, they get discouraged, confused, and they often give up. I don't want to be responsible for the discouragement of the 'young sprouts'. They have a potentially long journey ahead of them. Best not to make it longer.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

It would not be seemly for christians to be dragging one another through the proverbial mud, for all to see. And the Lord warned us not to judge one another, lest we ourselves fall under judgment. Surely if anyone has failed, I have also!

At the same time, if we (for instance) see a spirit of unrelieved mercantilism at work, combined with lording it over the saints and the elevation of the ministries of men, then it behooves us to sound a warning. I know that if I was dominated by such a spirit, hopefully someone would point it out before I arrived at the Judgment Seat, and gave me an opportunity to reconsider my ways.

And it's probably better, and less potentially harmful to one and all, to say, "We see the pattern of a spirit at work here", with as few sordid details as possible. Correction is the key, not ruin; enough have been stumbled already. Remember that when weaker ones see the failures of the stronger ones, they get discouraged, confused, and they often give up. I don't want to be responsible for the discouragement of the 'young sprouts'. They have a potentially long journey ahead of them. Best not to make it longer.

Yes bro Aron, we're all human ... if we could just be honest about it, and not pretend otherwise.

Lee made claims. He wasn't just human, like the rest of us. He claimed to be God's oracle, apostle, and minister of the age, on the earth. These were highfalutin claims, making him something more special than just being human.

The question is, are what Lee claimed true, or not the real Lee.

And we're after the real Lee. Not the advertisement.

Since leaving the local church I've felt I followed the Spirit out. There were to me obvious problems. And then there was a sense in my spirit that there was much more wrong than met the eye. I had not any facts, just a sense in my spirit.

But since then what I sensed in my spirit has been confirmed time and time again, as the facts of what I sensed in my spirit have come out in the open.

And that's all we want. We want it all out in the light of day.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes the misdeeds of PL and TL were shielded and I never learned of them until right before I left the LRC.

It wasn't until I read Reconsideration of the Vision in college (89/90) did the picture concerning misdeeds come into form. It was like when we were as children connecting the dots to form a picture, but in this case it was in literary form.

[aron]

Paul: "I have coveted no man's silver or gold or clothing" Acts 20:33

Samuel: "Here I stand. Testify against me in the presence of the LORD and his anointed. Whose ox have I taken? Whose donkey have I taken?" 1 Samuel 12:3

Ohio: "...when it came to supporting the purchase of the La Palma campus, the GLA... goal was $2K per family."

To quote the Sesame Street song, "One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong."

See a black and white version with Mr. Hooper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCMA_5nK_G0

and a newer one with Big Bird

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZ6tvqhk8U

In the commentary below the second video it says, "If you're over a year and a half old, you should figure it out"

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

However, no one in the LRC, myself included, could argue that WL "served the Lord in all humility". This was open for all to see.

I read this over and over and thought you were saying the opposite . . . that Lee DID "serve the Lord in all humility."

Finally it made sense.

But, as I see it, there is still one problem with the sentence. There are many who constantly argue that Lee served the Lord in all humility. It is for them that this forum continues.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I read this over and over and thought you were saying the opposite . . . that Lee DID "serve the Lord in all humility."

Finally it made sense.

But, as I see it, there is still one problem with the sentence. There are many who constantly argue that Lee served the Lord in all humility. It is for them that this forum continues.

They could argue that he served the Lord "faithfully", perhaps. But in "all humility"? How can anyone characterize his rants against Christianity and about how only he has any light as being "all humility"?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

However, no one in the LRC, myself included, could argue that WL "served the Lord in all humility". This was open for all to see. Likewise, it may be that BP was blinded by his ambition to run a worldwide ministry, let the Lord judge on that, but we all to some extent or other considered ourselves "elite" Christians.

Exclusive systems, such as the Recovery and the exclusive Brethren, are breeding grounds for pride and arrogance through the teachings and actions of their leaders. Note that it was not the spiritual men who rose to prominence in those systems, but the ambitious zealots who were able to maneuver their way to the top. Yes, they were very gifted, knowledgeable, and talented, but the love of God was sacrificed in the process. Thus it is easy to see how Laodicea came into existence, then and now.

Witness Lee taught us repeatedly to judge all things Christian. None outside the Recovery were worthy of our respect. Love and humility, far too often, became merely vehicles to capture new ones. Lee taught us to consider his work and ministry as the only acceptable one presently on earth. Eventually even the local churches themselves became a distant second in prominence to the Living Stream Ministry. Most loyal members, however, have no clue what their real history is, and sincerely consider Lee and today's Blendeds as the most humble, spiritual, and godly Christians on earth, and perhaps for all time.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Most loyal members, however, have no clue what their real history is, and sincerely consider Lee and today's Blendeds as the most humble, spiritual, and godly Christians on earth, and perhaps for all time.

Most humble you say? If that was the case, I don't think you would hear claims about expressing God's government on the earth, being the select few who can discern the feeling of the Body, etc. No, that is not humility. Even with the late 80's turmoil, there is still no humility. You could suggest there was bearing of false witness against the former co-workers. The typical response is not of humility, but of self-preservation; "perceived wrongdoings, "imagined offenses", and so on. There is no thought to the effect "we could have been wrong". Now that would have been humble.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Exclusive systems, such as the Recovery and the exclusive Brethren, are breeding grounds for pride and arrogance through the teachings and actions of their leaders. Note that it was not the spiritual men who rose to prominence in those systems, but the ambitious zealots who were able to maneuver their way to the top. Yes, they were very gifted, knowledgeable, and talented, but the love of God was sacrificed in the process. Thus it is easy to see how Laodicea came into existence, then and now.

Witness Lee taught us repeatedly to judge all things Christian. None outside the Recovery were worthy of our respect. Love and humility, far too often, became merely vehicles to capture new ones. Lee taught us to consider his work and ministry as the only acceptable one presently on earth. Eventually even the local churches themselves became a distant second in prominence to the Living Stream Ministry. Most loyal members, however, have no clue what their real history is, and sincerely consider Lee and today's Blendeds as the most humble, spiritual, and godly Christians on earth, and perhaps for all time.

This actually makes me very happy. You recall the Lord's word about the feast and those who come in sit at the chief seat and then are told that someone more honorable has come in so that they then begin to take the lowest seat.

Years ago you could see the jockeying for position, it made the Lord's table seem shabby. So happy that this is not the Lord's table.

Which reminds me of my baptism. I was baptized Friday night, Saturday morning I get a phone number that my grandmother had died the night before and that I needed to fly to the funeral. I believe she was praying for my salvation, so the fact the Lord chose to take her the same night I was baptized made an impression on me.

Anyway, at the funeral service everyone was jockeying for position, my brother, sister and I just stood in the back of the room with our backs against the wall watching this. Then, the wall opened up a man took us and led us into the sanctuary so we wound up sitting right in front. In Houston with RG, EM, KR, etc. there was a lot of jockeying for position in the meetings. It makes me feel better knowing that this was truly fleshly and not of the Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Most humble you say? If that was the case, I don't think you would hear claims about expressing God's government on the earth, being the select few who can discern the feeling of the Body, etc. No, that is not humility.

In their mind Lee and the Blendeds are "forced" to be honest and speak the "truth" about the "pitiful" condition of today's Christians, hopelessly divided from one another, and living in spiritual fornication by taking names.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In their mind Lee and the Blendeds are "forced" to be honest and speak the "truth" about the "pitiful" condition of today's Christians, hopelessly divided from one another, and living in spiritual fornication by taking names.

And I could go out and buy a steak dinner if I had a dollar for every time I heard Lee riffing on how Paul was forced to brag about his spiritual experiences in 2 Cor 11 & 12, and likewise how he (Lee) was forced to be honest and frank with us about all the high peak truths God had given to him.

So he could play humble while saying that nobody else had such blessings. If Paul could brag, why couldn't he? Lee didn't want to speak like this, but the situation forced his hand. And probably he didn't want to sell us all those books, but his conscience required him to make these riches available to all, for a nominal fee. Otherwise, how could the body of Christ be built up? How else could God end the age apart from these high truths?

It's tough being the apostle of the age. But someone's got to do it. Right?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Otherwise, how could the body of Christ be built up?

It's been said a temptation servants of the Lord are tempted with is when some of the Lord's servants see a place, they see a kingdom to be carved out. A church is considered as personal property. Problem exists when a church or churches is considered as a source of personal income. Is the intent to build a kingdom or serve in building the body of Christ?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the aftermath of Daystar, Lee and his new agency -- the Living Stream Ministry -- became awash in cash.

History speaks for itself. The bi-annual trainings coincide with the formation of Living Stream Ministry. What I do not understand, with the collapse of Daystar, why did The Stream Publishers need to cease and be replaced by Living Stream Ministry?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

History speaks for itself. The bi-annual trainings coincide with the formation of Living Stream Ministry. What I do not understand, with the collapse of Daystar, why did The Stream Publishers need to cease and be replaced by Living Stream Ministry?

I've seen corporations re-incorporate under a different name -- like extended warranty companies -- to slip out from illegal activities.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Terry

History speaks for itself. The bi-annual trainings coincide with the formation of Living Stream Ministry. What I do not understand, with the collapse of Daystar, why did The Stream Publishers need to cease and be replaced by Living Stream Ministry?

Actually there is not a huge difference between The Stream and The Living Stream - they were/are both supposed to be "a little publishing ministry" to spread the written/spoken words of Witness Lee (and to a much lesser extent the written/spoken words of Watchman Nee.)

The reality is that The Living Stream developed into nothing more than the formalization, systematizing and codification of the person and work of Witness Lee as the sole source of teaching and practice for the Local Church movement. Anyone who doubts this should read (or pray-read) The One Publication documents and tracts that were distributed over the past 15-20 years or so. Lee, and now his "continuation" have made this crystal clear - there is no room or even tolerance for anything or anyone besides Witness Lee.

Same thing goes for any of the other "front" organizations such as Bibles for America or The Defense and Confirmation Project. "The Bibles" for America are not just any Bible - they are a Bible jammed full of "the interpreted word"....The teachings of Witness Lee. And just what have we found that the DCP is "defending" and "confirming"?.....The person and work of Witness Lee (and Nee kind of). Apparently the Gospel is not worth defending as much as the interpretations and opinions of Lee, and this is a very sad commentary on a whole group of people who supposedly care so much for God and his purpose for his people.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

History speaks for itself. The bi-annual trainings coincide with the formation of Living Stream Ministry. What I do not understand, with the collapse of Daystar, why did The Stream Publishers need to cease and be replaced by Living Stream Ministry?

I'm not sure the collapse of Daystar had anything to do with the formation of LSM. Stream Publishers became LSM and this could have been for nothing more than marketing purposes i.e. charging a fee for trainings is not really what publishers do but it's what some ministries sometimes do. The word "ministry" gave it a wider range of activities that could fall under it's umbrella.

The big change was leaving LA and moving to Anaheim to set up the "Ministry Station" and all the things that came with it: corporate offices, a training center, printing plant etc. Basically it dawned on Witness Lee and some around him that religion is big business in and of itself. And this enlightening was a process e.g. when they first started charging a fee for trainings you could still take your own tape recorder and tape the meetings. Soon this was nixed and if you wanted the tapes you had to buy them from LSM. Then they came out in printed individual message form and most people bought them too especially if they were on standing order. Then they came out in the "Green Volumes". So basically you were just paying for the same message over and over and over in different formats.

Let it never be said that LSM are not masters of marketing!

[TLFisher]

Thanks Unto and Alwayslearning for your perspectives on The Stream Publishers versus Living Stream Ministry. FYI, when it has come to Lee's or Nee's books, I have had a preference for books published by The Stream Publishers as opposed to LSM. It had not yet been historically revised.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Thanks Unto and Alwayslearning for your perspectives on The Stream Publishers versus Living Stream Ministry. FYI, when it has come to Lee's or Nee's books, I have had a preference for books published by The Stream Publishers as opposed to LSM. It had not yet been historically revised.

But still, they aren't free of spin ...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I'm not sure the collapse of Daystar had anything to do with the formation of LSM. Stream Publishers became LSM and this could have been for nothing more than marketing purposes i.e. charging a fee for trainings is not really what publishers do but it's what some ministries sometimes do. The word "ministry" gave it a wider range of activities that could fall under it's umbrella.

The big change was leaving LA and moving to Anaheim to set up the "Ministry Station" and all the things that came with it: corporate offices, a training center, printing plant etc. Basically it dawned on Witness Lee and some around him that religion is big business in and of itself. And this enlightening was a process e.g. when they first started charging a fee for trainings you could still take your own tape recorder and tape the meetings. Soon this was nixed and if you wanted the tapes you had to buy them from LSM. Then they came out in printed individual message form and most people bought them too especially if they were on standing order. Then they came out in the "Green Volumes". So basically you were just paying for the same message over and over and over in different formats.

Let it never be said that LSM are not masters of marketing!

This is a good point relative to the question of this thread. If Daystar had truly been "poor judgment" then you would expect a repentance. Since Living Stream Ministry can be said to have been a result of Daystar, at least in part, then a very enlightening question to the heart of Witness Lee "was the formation of LSM the product of repentance or was it more of the same?" If it is "more of the same" then it supports the idea that Daystar was fraud. If it was repentance then it supports the idea that Daystar was "poor judgment" that Witness Lee then repented of.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Since Living Stream Ministry can be said to have been a result of Daystar, at least in part, then a very enlightening question to the heart of Witness Lee "was the formation of LSM the product of repentance or was it more of the same?"

LSM was a continuation of Stream Publishers. The only connections I can see with Daystar are:

1. At some point during or after the debacle it dawned on Witness Lee that religion in and of itself is big business. Why make mobile homes when you can start charging for things you are already doing and market your ministry in multiple money-making formats? Of course he still dabbled in other pursuits because he realized with the LC he had a captured audience i.e. selling chairs to churches from one of his son's enterprises in Taiwan, real estate, etc.

After all when you pull aside the "spiritual" MOTA etc. Oz curtain what was Witness Lee? An immigrant enterpreneur who worked very hard trying different things and was ultimately successful in the religion business.

2. To my knowledge he used funds from LSM to pay back those who lent Daystar money and wouldn't forgive their loans.

But IMHO perhaps another and maybe more important question would be:

What if Daystar was a success? What if investors had a high ROI and lenders were paid back at substantial rates of interest? Would we consider that the "Lord's blessing"?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

LSM was a continuation of Stream Publishers. The only connections I can see with Daystar are:

1. At some point during or after the debacle it dawned on Witness Lee that religion in and of itself is big business. Why make mobile homes when you can start charging for things you are already doing and market your ministry in multiple money-making formats? Of course he still dabbled in other pursuits because he realized with the LC he had a captured audience i.e. selling chairs to churches from one of his son's enterprises in Taiwan, real estate, etc.

After all when you pull aside the "spiritual" MOTA etc. Oz curtain what was Witness Lee? An immigrant enterpreneur who worked very hard trying different things and was ultimately successful in the religion business.

2. To my knowledge he used funds from LSM to pay back those who lent Daystar money and wouldn't forgive their loans.

But IMHO perhaps another and maybe more important question would be:

What if Daystar was a success? What if investors had a high ROI and lenders were paid back at substantial rates of interest? Would we consider that the "Lord's blessing"?

Perhaps others know more, but my understanding is that the sales of suits, tennis rackets, and MOTAhomes were Timothy's gig. Witness was left cleaning up a string of failed businesses. It was Philip that stepped into the picture with a plan to jump start the ministry.

Things started happening then. The move to Anaheim, Max persuading investors to forgive the debts, SP became LSM, and the days of free ministry were over. After that everything was for sale. Standing orders begun. Trainings cost money. Real estate was purchased.

Hey ... let's even sell them "god-man" socks and LSM ties and jackets.

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

At some point during or after the [Daystar] debacle it dawned on Witness Lee that religion in and of itself is big business. Why make mobile homes when you can start charging for things you are already doing and market your ministry in multiple money-making formats?

I think WL eventually concentrated exclusively on selling books, cassette tapes, pamphlets, and VHS tapes because he realized he just wasn't very good at selling anything else.

Had the other manufacturing/marketing enterprises turned up golden they likely would have been continued as well. Instead, WL was stuck with the only thing he was good at making money from. I think that he would have also been "motor home builder of the age" if he could have made that one work, as well.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps others know more, but my understanding is that the sales of suits, tennis rackets, and MOTAhomes were Timothy's gig. Witness was left cleaning up a string of failed businesses. It was Philip that stepped into the picture with a plan to jump start the ministry.

I'm not sure if you mean Timothy started these businesses and Witness Lee stepped in later to clean them up or they were in them together from the get-go and cleaning them up became the task of Witness Lee after they failed. In any event to my knowledge it was the latter.

Dad & Sons saw the LC as the fertile ground of a captured market. They could ply all sorts of goods to the loyal sheep who would empty their pockets for "the Lord's" work.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

I think WL eventually concentrated exclusively on selling books, cassette tapes, pamphlets, and VHS tapes because he realized he just wasn't very good at selling anything else.

Religion is BIG business especially in America! It took awhile for Witness Lee to get this. Once he saw the light the money started poring in.

And is there a better marketing gig out there?

1. Convince your target market that you are the divine oracle of God on the earth with the one ministry.

2. Trash the outside competition by calling them pitiful, poor, blind Babylonians.

3. Crush any competition from within by having a one publication policy implemented, controlled and policed by your company and oust any who violate it.

4. Silence any within the target audience who speak negatively or question you, your company, your actions, etc.

5. With 1-4 firmly in place:

a. use every given opportunity to sell your wares e.g. conferences, trainings, etc.

b. Make LCs at local level bookstores for your products

c. Have elders become your local salesmen

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I'm not sure if you mean Timothy started these businesses and Witness Lee stepped in later to clean them up or they were in them together from the get-go and cleaning them up became the task of Witness Lee after they failed. In any event to my knowledge it was the latter.

Sure it was the latter, since neither of Lee's kids had any influence in the church without their Dad. I was only pointing out that with Timothy, Lee tried to make money in the market place, probably following Nee's pattern to some degree. After that series of failures, Philip emerged at LSM, and Dad embarked on new money-making schemes. I did hear once that it was Philip's idea to charge a training "donation."

Perhaps you know something about Lee's sons that can be added, like why would the church build him a house next to Witness? Did Lee have other sons? Were any of his sons in the least bit spiritual, or have any redeeming qualities?

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

5. With 1-4 firmly in place:

a. use every given opportunity to sell your wares e.g. conferences, trainings, etc.

b. Make LCs at local level bookstores for your products

c. Have elders become your local salesmen

You haven't seen anything yet, if you have not visited Dong's "Bookafe". It is multi-level marketing on steroids. They don't try to just sell you books -- they try to recruit you to becoming a "bookseller". To them, selling merchandise is the gospel.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you know something about Lee's sons that can be added, like why would the church build him a house next to Witness? Did Lee have other sons? Were any of his sons in the least bit spiritual, or have any redeeming qualities?

To my knowledge donations from around the world flowed in to build the meeting hall on Ball Road in Anaheim to be the new Ministry Station on one side and The Church in Anaheim on the other side. A few doors down was a residential property that was purchased to build Witness Lee and his son Philip houses. Since Philip Lee was the GM of LSM this made sense in terms of being in close proximity to his Dad and to the new HQ offices. But The Church in Anaheim did not build them these houses. That was a multi-church/ministry project.

Witness Lee had another son named Philemon (maybe more) who also worked at the LSM but had a low profile because he was a little "slow". Nothing like the others. Quiet. Humble. And was disturbed by things that went on there.

BTW in personality Timothy was much different than Philip. He was more polished and affable. Philip was an ill-tempered coarse bully who's temper tantrums were legendary.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You haven't seen anything yet, if you have not visited Dong's "Bookafe". It is multi-level marketing on steroids. They don't try to just sell you books -- they try to recruit you to becoming a "bookseller". To them, selling merchandise is the gospel.

Sounds like he's beating LSM at their own game!

(BTW the FTTs run by LSM IMHO are basically just training a sales force for their materials. Guy with a Computer Science degree ends up "serving full time" i.e. on a college campus somewhere pitching LSM stuff from a table.)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Sounds like he's beating LSM at their own game!

(BTW the FTTs run by LSM IMHO are basically just training a sales force for their materials. Guy with a Computer Science degree ends up "serving full time" i.e. on a college campus somewhere pitching LSM stuff from a table.)

So then LSM was not the product of repenting for their error in Daystar. At best you can say that the practice of "making merchandise of the saints" has been improved on through LSM. I wouldn't say "perfected" but it is obvious that Dong is moving further in that direction. I don't see the slightest hint that Witness Lee repented of using his "ministry" to make merchandise of the Saints, on the contrary I would say that building PL's house next to his was embracing this concept. Using saints to donate their labor so that he could build his empire is his embracing the idea of "making merchandise of the saints". He got his homes and buildings at a third of the cost, and tax free to boot.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Using saints to donate their labor so that he could build his empire is his embracing the idea of "making merchandise of the saints". He got his homes and buildings at a third of the cost, and tax free to boot.

"A third of the cost" ZNP? Is that a generous estimate? I was under the impression the labor was at no cost. Brothers giving their time to serve the ministry thorugh their uncompensated labor.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Were any of his sons in the least bit spiritual, or have any redeeming qualities?

I had never heard of Philemon whom Alwayslearning referred to. Aside from character, who knows if the Daystar and LSM enterprises were vehicles to ensure financial security for Timothy and Philip's children?
At any rate I see Philip laying the foundation for LSM as an organization and how revenue is generated (stand orders, training donations, making sure localities lined up, etc).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Witness Lee had another son named Philemon (maybe more) who also worked at the LSM but had a low profile because he was a little "slow". Nothing like the others. Quiet. Humble. And was disturbed by things that went on there.

BTW in personality Timothy was much different than Philip. He was more polished and affable. Philip was an ill-tempered coarse bully who's temper tantrums were legendary.

This is fascinating. Witness Lee had a side that was very polished and charming. He also was a hot-tempered bully when relating to other leaders. In person, many saints testified how reserved and humble he was, like an affectionate grandfather. Looks like each of his boys got only a third of his personality.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

To my knowledge donations from around the world flowed in to build the meeting hall on Ball Road in Anaheim to be the new Ministry Station on one side and The Church in Anaheim on the other side. A few doors down was a residential property that was purchased to build Witness Lee and his son Philip houses. Since Philip Lee was the GM of LSM this made sense in terms of being in close proximity to his Dad and to the new HQ offices. But The Church in Anaheim did not build them these houses. That was a multi-church/ministry project.

Do you know when Philip Lee became active at Stream/LSM?

After Daystar, did Timothy then vanish from the scene?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

"A third of the cost" ZNP? Is that a generous estimate? I was under the impression the labor was at no cost. Brothers giving their time to serve the ministry thorugh their uncompensated labor.

Rule of thumb in construction, labor is two thirds the cost

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is fascinating. Witness Lee had a side that was very polished and charming. He also was a hot-tempered bully when relating to other leaders. In person, many saints testified how reserved and humble he was, like an affectionate grandfather. Looks like each of his boys got only a third of his personality.

Great observation! Never thought of it that way.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you know when Philip Lee became active at Stream/LSM?

To my knowledge he was involved with Stream Publishers which was really not a big operation before they moved to Anaheim. Samuel Chang was helping Witness Lee run it but he was also busy being an elder in LA and aging/slowing down so he became less active with SP and Philip picked up some of the tasks for his Dad.

Originally Posted by Ohio

After Daystar, did Timothy then vanish from the scene?

Not really. He knew the saints in Taiwan and the Chinese saints in Southern California quite well and was involved with them. The next thing after Daystar was the gold interlocking chairs imported from the Far East via Timothy. His Dad pitched them to the elders and each church was expected to buy some for their meeting halls. BTW LSM was already launched by the time the chair thing came along.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

I had never heard of Philemon whom Alwayslearning referred to. Aside from character, who knows if the Daystar and LSM enterprises were vehicles to ensure financial security for Timothy and Philip's children?

The way Witness Lee sold Daystar to the saints was: it's for the Lord's work i.e. profits will be for that purpose. It was his way of "making tents".

Was he pure in that intention? I don't know. Most father's hope to help their children so that would be a normal and natural inclination.

But regardless of the purity of intent IMHO how he went about trying to "make tents" was problematic from the get-go. It in no way resembles what Paul did in the NT or even what Watchman Nee did in joining a relative's pharmaceutical company.

[jonmc620]

I'm interested in speaking to anyone who invested in Daystar Motor Homes or knows someone who did.

Please reach out to me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jonmc620

I'm interested in speaking to anyone who invested in Daystar Motor Homes or knows someone who did.

Please reach out to me.

It's been 47 years since Daystar. Some of those folks are quite old.

Perhaps Indiana knows some still around. Hardy? Reisenhoover? Zehr? Kerr?

Perhaps the FaceBook group?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by jonmc620

I'm interested in speaking to anyone who invested in Daystar Motor Homes or knows someone who did.

Please reach out to me.

I invested a little bit of $$ in Daystar.There isn’t much to tell, but you can PM me.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by jonmc620

I'm interested in speaking to anyone who invested in Daystar Motor Homes or knows someone who did.

Please reach out to me.

My dad did as did a brother I once served with. Investment wasn't much. Only in the hundred's. Time Daystar failed, each recouped their losses. Unlike others I heard of investing tens of thousands and told to count it as an offering (paraphrased).