LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for sharing. In my estimation, the article takes a lot of unjustified liberalities in its thinking and does not make a very good case at all for its claim. One statement is made early on that sets up much of what follows, " God would not ask or expect Christians to ever choose between their heart and their faith." This is fundamentally wrong. The Bible has much to say about man's heart, and it's not too good, right

As people with these fleshly "earthsuits," we do still sin. He knows that and has made a Wonderful Provision in Christ for our sin to be handled, so we can come boldly to Him. If we fall 7 times (or 70 x 7), we get back up looking to Him. And by His life, we will not practice sin (though we might fall from time to time).

Not me, sister. I'm just pointing out what I see in scripture. Again, the Bible tells us the heart is deceitfully wicked and we shouldn't trust our own understanding! One needs to question what they think God has told them, if it doesn't line up well with scripture.

The Bible condemns sin, as it should, because sin kills us and those around us. My firm belief is homosexuality is in that category, like many other things of the flesh. A loving God will, and does, point out things that are death to us. If a child is having fun playing with poisonous vipers, should their father withhold his concern even though the child protests being told, "Don't do that!"? Of course not. The child may think there's no harm and get mighty upset, but . . .

I hope that makes sense, sister.

This is serenity lives. I’m wondering if you read the whole thing since you only made points about the first point but what I would like to ask is how is homosexuality fleshly? when it’s made with pure love. What happens when I am clear in my conscience that God approves? How do you know what God wants? The thing is my heart lines up with the basic tenents of Christianity. how can you compare homosexuality or same sex love between two commited persons who are pure to adultery or taking alcohol? Or even playing with snakes and vipers. I love my spouse and I will be commited to her forever, no matter what you think. Let God be the judge of that. Again you miss the entire point but I’m sure awareness will speak more upon this. “we shouldnt trust our own understanding”? this is what LC does to manipulate people into not using their minds. It’s not death I experience but life and you are implying homosexuality kills those among us. Where is the evidence? It only makes those conservative fundamental Christians uncomfortable.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Again you miss the entire point but I’m sure awareness will speak more upon this. “we shouldnt trust our own understanding”? this is what LC does to manipulate people into not using their minds. It’s not death I experience but life and you are implying homosexuality kills those among us. Where is the evidence? It only makes those conservative fundamental Christians uncomfortable.

StG quoted "the letter kills," and then goes to the letter to make his points.

I'm more concerned about leaning on our misunderstanding.

And all this going on about how evil the heart is, is nothing more than cherry picking verses. In fact, just a few verses above the verse he quotes about not leaning on your own understanding is :

Pro 3:3* Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart.

I could go on and on about the heart and 'own understanding.' There's way way more verses speaking highly of both.

[UntoHim]

While I certainly fit awareness' ignoble category of "old fart heterosexual", I'm here to tell you that I don't fit the second category of "impossible to understand homosexuality".

I had an older brother who died of AIDS in the early nineties. I now have a very close relative who has come out as a lesbian. I have had a number of gay and lesbian friends, friends of friends, neighbors and co-workers and employees over the past 50 years. I have had civil relations with all of them. The Lord calls us to love our neighbors as ourselves. One of the first aspects of loving someone is to understand them. There is no practical way for us to love our neighbor unless we take the time and care to understand them. In John 4, the Lord Jesus did not immediately condemn the woman at the well, although her lifestyle was certainly shameful and condemnable, rather he engaged her in a conversation which led to her salvation. A few chapters later in John 8, in another confrontation with a woman involved in sexual sin. Again, he did not condemn her, rather he protected her from those seeking to condemn her to death. Yet the story did not end there. The story ended with Jesus telling her "go, and sin no more". The Greek here reads closer to "Go, and from now on, sin no more" (πορεύου ἀπὸ νῦν ἁμάρτανε μηκέτι) While it seems that the Lord Jesus was releasing her from the immediate consequences of her sin, he was more concerned with her eternal salvation..."and from now on".

All this being said, I believe that God has delivered his word to us in the form of the Old and New Testaments. In my view, these Scriptures are clear in the revealing of God's original intention in the creation of human beings - both men and women. I believe that there was an actual fall of Man. This fall negatively affected every aspect of human beings, including, and most especially, sexuality. Some of the negative affects of the fall were addressed in the Old Testament with the Law. The Lord Jesus was very clear in his declaration "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17) When taken in it's entirety, I believe the Gospel explains, and even illustrates for us, how God is in the process of redeeming every aspect of humanity, including, and most especially, human sexuality.

So here we are on an Internet discussion forum in 2020. I don't think any of us are the woman at the well, and I don't think any of us are the Lord Jesus. Maybe we're like the observers of these events. We all have our experiences. We all have our backgrounds. We also have various environments that we have grown up with and surrounding us today. Most importantly, I believe, we have and accurate, true and complete record of God's intentions in his creation, before the Fall, and his intentions in the salvation and redemption of human beings.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

While I certainly fit awareness' ignoble category of "old fart heterosexual", I'm here to tell you that I don't fit the second category of "impossible to understand homosexuality".

I had an older brother who died of AIDS in the early nineties. I now have a very close relative who has come out as a lesbian. I have had a number of gay and lesbian friends, friends of friends, neighbors and co-workers and employees over the past 50 years. I have had civil relations with all of them. The Lord calls us to love our neighbors as ourselves. One of the first aspects of loving someone is to understand them. There is no practical way for us to love our neighbor unless we take the time and care to understand them. In John 4, the Lord Jesus did not immediately condemn the woman at the well, although her lifestyle was certainly shameful and condemnable, rather he engaged her in a conversation which led to her salvation. A few chapters later in John 8, in another confrontation with a woman involved in sexual sin. Again, he did not condemn her, rather he protected her from those seeking to condemn her to death. Yet the story did not end there. The story ended with Jesus telling her "go, and sin no more". The Greek here reads closer to "Go, and from now on, sin no more" (πορεύου ἀπὸ νῦν ἁμάρτανε μηκέτι) While it seems that the Lord Jesus was releasing her from the immediate consequences of her sin, he was more concerned with her eternal salvation..."and from now on".

All this being said, I believe that God has delivered his word to us in the form of the Old and New Testaments. In my view, these Scriptures are clear in the revealing of God's original intention in the creation of human beings - both men and women. I believe that there was an actual fall of Man. This fall negatively affected every aspect of human beings, including, and most especially, sexuality. Some of the negative affects of the fall were addressed in the Old Testament with the Law. The Lord Jesus was very clear in his declaration "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17) When taken in it's entirety, I believe the Gospel explains, and even illustrates for us, how God is in the process of redeeming every aspect of humanity, including, and most especially, human sexuality.

So here we are on an Internet discussion forum in 2020. I don't think any of us are the woman at the well, and I don't think any of us are the Lord Jesus. Maybe we're like the observers of these events. We all have our experiences. We all have our backgrounds. We also have various environments that we have grown up with and surrounding us today. Most importantly, I believe, we have and accurate, true and complete record of God's intentions in his creation, before the Fall, and his intentions in the salvation and redemption of human beings.
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Great post. But in spite a deep calling need to do an exegesis on it, I'll graciously bow out. Thanks for sharing. Much of your explanation of what we all encounter, go thru in life, and experience, I have experienced and encountered. And I have had no problem loving gays ... right up to today ... to this very minute. If God don't like 'em, that's his problem. He can't judge those he makes ... just like hermaphrodites.

Does the Bible even mention them? I couldn't find evidence of it. But not so in the Navajo "Bible" creation story.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is serenity lives. I’m wondering if you read the whole thing since you only made points about the first point but what I would like to ask is how is homosexuality fleshly? when it’s made with pure love. What happens when I am clear in my conscience that God approves? How do you know what God wants? The thing is my heart lines up with the basic tenents of Christianity. how can you compare homosexuality or same sex love between two commited persons who are pure to adultery or taking alcohol? Or even playing with snakes and vipers. I love my spouse and I will be commited to her forever, no matter what you think. Let God be the judge of that. Again you miss the entire point but I’m sure awareness will speak more upon this. “we shouldnt trust our own understanding”? this is what LC does to manipulate people into not using their minds. It’s not death I experience but life and you are implying homosexuality kills those among us. Where is the evidence? It only makes those conservative fundamental Christians uncomfortable.

I thought that sounded like you Miss SerenityLives! (I didn't catch the 1st sentence when I briefly looked at the message last night . . .) I did scan each paragraph in the article, and completely read paragraphs where I thought I needed to know more. I only focused on two main points from the article, for better simplicity of our conversation here. We can look at other things if you like.

Can’t agree with homosexual or any biologically based love being “pure love,” sister, that would be only God Himself, who is agape (Greek; unconditional) love The best we produce is not "pure love," no matter how great it feels.

I know things we do feel good. Gosh, I once was all about feeling good . . . back in the day that lead me into a lot of drugs, partying and experimentation (I'll let your imagination fill in those blanks), and that then lead into homelessness, jail and despair. And I'm still something of a Christian Hedonist (John Piper's term; meaning pursuing God as the highest pleasure of all), so I like to do enjoyable things and have a drink or two occasionally. Why? To feel good. Look, we all want to feel good, don't we?! Of course! And feelings are much about the heart. And the heart can easily be lead astray. That's why we need Him.

And "lean not unto your own understanding" is not my words, but scripture. The idea is to lean on Him and His understanding. Yes, the LC would have you lean unto WL's understanding, which is another rabbit hole. There is only one Lord, and one Word that is not a rabbit hole. All else, no matter how good or enjoyable it seems, is off the mark and falls short. (and to put it in terms of feelings, anything besides Christ alone will fail and fall short in the pleasure department too)

You don’t want to admit that homosexuality is a sin and you seem to imply that it is really God’s desire, right? That is between you and the Almighty. In my Bible homosexuality is listed as a sin, along with many other things. Let me ask this sister – is there any sin in your life, that is, anything off the mark . . . do you believe there actually is sin, or is everything your heart tells you okay?

Originally Posted by awareness

StG quoted "the letter kills," and then goes to the letter to make his points.

Scripture is scripture bro - it can be life or the dead letter. The problem is not scripture, but rather how its used.

My intention in that post was far from condemnation. In fact, just the opposite - in humbleness we admit failure to Him and He is faithful and righteous to forgive us. Why? Because He already died for every sin I have done and will do. He took sin out of the way and nailed it to the cross. Therefore, because of His righteous act, we are now called to NOT have a conciseness of sin - God is greater than our conscience - so we can boldly go to Him at ANY time! But that doesn't mean we don't sin - we all do because we all have the fallen flesh still. As regenerated ones with Christ in us, we are saints who sometimes still sin. And sin has consequences (hinders fellowship on our part plus other negative things) whether we see those consequences now or not. "The sting of death is sin." (1 Cor 15:56)

So what do I know saints? Truly not much! I am not the judge - He is. At the Bema Seat Christ will judge all Christians’ works to see what will remain. How much of my works will remain? I cannot tell (like the old hymn says). But this I know - He has done it all in love and harmful things will be fully revealed and burned away. By His mercy, grace and operation in us, may none of us suffer any loss at that time!

And please forgive me if there was any condemnation in my writing as that is certainly not my intention. But if we know something is harmful and we are silent about it, that is not love . . .

[awareness]

STG, so now not only can we not trust our heart, nor trust our understanding, but love has been reduced to just feelings.

Goodness brother. Do you have a wife or girlfriend? If so, if you share this with either one you're not going keep them.

Love is the highest need in our life. Paul says if we have not love we're just a clanging cymbal.

Or are you saying gays can't love?

Take a look at this:
https://rmnetwork.org/newrmn/wp-cont...16-reduced.pdf

[Sons to Glory!]

See my responses below.

Originally Posted by awareness

STG, so now not only can we not trust our heart, nor trust our understanding, but love has been reduced to just feelings. Scripture (as cited) says we can't trust our hearts and shouldn't lean to our own understanding. The Bible speaks of three kinds of love, right? Bios - physical, phileo - of the soul and agape - unconditional (God's love). We shouldn't confuse these.

Goodness brother. Do you have a wife or girlfriend? If so, if you share this with either one you're not going keep them. Huh? Refer to above response.

Love is the highest need in our life. Paul says if we have not love we're just a clanging cymbal. AMEN!

Or are you saying gays can't love? Nope - not saying that. (I wonder where you got that from what I wrote.)

Take a look at this:
https://rmnetwork.org/newrmn/wp-cont...16-reduced.pdf
Thanks for sharing.

Look, we may be shooting past each other on this conversation. To me it seems like you're trying to set up a strawman argument with things I have not said. Let's not do that, okay?

Love is the foundation of all God does toward us, and therefore should be the foundation we have with one another. I see the gay thing as sin, but some on here see it as normal and even God's design. I don't see it that way and see it as another fruit of the flesh, period. We all manifest fruits of the flesh and all need love and forgiveness. But if someone doesn't see gayness as sin, then they don't think they need to seek forgiveness or that there's anything harmful there that they need to seek God after. We will all stand at the Bema Seat and hope we are not surprised (me included).

I don't think my view is complicated, is it?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

See my responses below.

I don't think my view is complicated, is it?

Brother, it's clear you mean well. But you are on the LGBT thread. So saying the heart can't be trusted, and don't lean on your own understanding, and love is just a feeling, seems to be an attack on gays.

But I'm doing wrong, and we're doing wrong.

SerentyLives intended this thread to hopefully reach out to gays in the LC, not for us to argue about it.

She now thinks this thread is a failure, and wants it closed and deleted, thanks to us.

But I need to talk to her first.

And for the record, I think you are a sweet brother.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother, it's clear you mean well. But you are on the LGBT thread. So saying the heart can't be trusted, and don't lean on your own understanding, and love is just a feeling, seems to be an attack on gays.

But I'm doing wrong, and we're doing wrong.

SerentyLives intended this thread to hopefully reach out to gays in the LC, not for us to argue about it.

She now thinks this thread is a failure, and wants it closed and deleted, thanks to us.

But I need to talk to her first.

And for the record, I think you are a sweet brother.

Sorry . . . it's a sensitive issue and not always easy to have effective communication regarding it.

[awareness]

And brother StG, our fleshly skin is the largest organ of the body. So if we go against the flesh we're denying what we're made of, and insulting what God called good.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother, it's clear you mean well. But you are on the LGBT thread. So saying the heart can't be trusted, and don't lean on your own understanding, and love is just a feeling, seems to be an attack on gays.

But I'm doing wrong, and we're doing wrong.

SerentyLives intended this thread to hopefully reach out to gays in the LC, not for us to argue about it.

She now thinks this thread is a failure, and wants it closed and deleted, thanks to us.

But I need to talk to her first.

And for the record, I think you are a sweet brother.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I take serious issue with this thread being deleted AGAIN. I and others have poured time as well as serious thought into it, and, I'm not joking, hours of walking around in agony considering how to respond in the most compassionate way. I have numerous drafts still in limbo as I've tried to squeeze some time in during the week after work to respond to the many responses posted this week.

Let me remind everyone what the original post of this thread said:

Hello all, I am representing all the queerfolk, trans, bisexual, basically lgbtqia, since the last one landed in a disaster. and I would like to form a civilized discussion. No name calling etc. So what are ex-LC members experience with those they know who have left the church due to their own or friends/ family members’ different sexuality and gender identity issues? and what are you guys’ stance on this hot topic.

This has been as civilized a discussion as you can hope given the topic, as well as some of the awkwardness inherent in the subject, and any failures in keeping it civilized have come from both sides.

Everyone has provided their stance on the "hot topic", just as requested -- there is nothing to delete here. To come on a largely Christian forum and ask for a discussion on a contentious topic and then repeatedly delete the entire history of it because you don't like the responses that were totally in-line with everything you asked for, is beyond frustrating, as well as disrespectful to those participating.

There is no "thanks to us". Don't throw that at the people who complied with the original post. The "thanks to us" belongs to SerenityLives who wants anything that handles this topic logically and rationally deleted from existence.

I DEALT WITH YOU CALLING GOD GAY AND JESUS HOMOSEXUAL AND I DIDN'T ONCE ASK FOR THE THREAD TO BE DELETED.

I personally think there is a lot of value in what has been written not only from the "side" or perspective I hold, but also in all the experiences, articles, thoughts, feelings, points of view, and responses from the pro-LGBTQ lifestyle side. Someone on the LGBTQ side may come onto this thread and get tremendous help from those who are in favor of it.

The heart CAN'T be trusted, we are NOT to lean on our own understanding. That's not an "attack on the gays". That's the truth of God's word no matter what the topic.

And for heaven's sake, no one here "hates the gays" as you keep claiming. I don't know how many more times I need to say, both from my perspective, as well as what the Word says, that it's the sexual act that is the issue. That's it. NO ONE HERE "HATES THE GAYS", SO STOP MAKING FALSE STATEMENTS.

Leave this thread be.

[Sons to Glory!]

I agree and amen every single statement in Trapped's last post! And "me too" regarding "I and others have poured time as well as serious thought into it, and, I'm not joking, hours of walking around in agony considering how to respond in the most compassionate way."

Very well said.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I take serious issue with this thread being deleted AGAIN. I and others have poured time as well as serious thought into it, and, I'm not joking, hours of walking around in agony considering how to respond in the most compassionate way. I have numerous drafts still in limbo as I've tried to squeeze some time in during the week after work to respond to the many responses posted this week.

Let me remind everyone what the original post of this thread said:

Hello all, I am representing all the queerfolk, trans, bisexual, basically lgbtqia, since the last one landed in a disaster. and I would like to form a civilized discussion. No name calling etc. So what are ex-LC members experience with those they know who have left the church due to their own or friends/ family members’ different sexuality and gender identity issues? and what are you guys’ stance on this hot topic.

This has been as civilized a discussion as you can hope given the topic, as well as some of the awkwardness inherent in the subject, and any failures in keeping it civilized have come from both sides.

Everyone has provided their stance on the "hot topic", just as requested -- there is nothing to delete here. To come on a largely Christian forum and ask for a discussion on a contentious topic and then repeatedly delete the entire history of it because you don't like the responses that were totally in-line with everything you asked for, is beyond frustrating, as well as disrespectful to those participating.

There is no "thanks to us". Don't throw that at the people who complied with the original post. The "thanks to us" belongs to SerenityLives who wants anything that handles this topic logically and rationally deleted from existence.

I DEALT WITH YOU CALLING GOD GAY AND JESUS HOMOSEXUAL AND I DIDN'T ONCE ASK FOR THE THREAD TO BE DELETED.

I personally think there is a lot of value in what has been written not only from the "side" or perspective I hold, but also in all the experiences, articles, thoughts, feelings, points of view, and responses from the pro-LGBTQ lifestyle side. Someone on the LGBTQ side may come onto this thread and get tremendous help from those who are in favor of it.

The heart CAN'T be trusted, we are NOT to lean on our own understanding. That's not an "attack on the gays". That's the truth of God's word no matter what the topic.

And for heaven's sake, no one here "hates the gays" as you keep claiming. I don't know how many more times I need to say, both from my perspective, as well as what the Word says, that it's the sexual act that is the issue. That's it. NO ONE HERE "HATES THE GAYS", SO STOP MAKING FALSE STATEMENTS.

Leave this thread be.

Thanks so much for expressing yourself on this thread.

And by the way. Maybe SenerityLives doesn't realize that a google search of LGBTQ will list this thread, as soon as the google spider digs it up.

So I don't want it deleted either The OP doesn't express her hopes, but she has them. But she's the boss of this thread.

And I don't remember calling God gay. I think I called Him a homophobe, which can be backed up with scripture. And there's no sound scripture that Jesus was gay. At most there's just inferences and conjecture.

If anyone is gay, it's males that love the man Jesus fervently, like a lover.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I thought that sounded like you Miss SerenityLives! (I didn't catch the 1st sentence when I briefly looked at the message last night . . .) I did scan each paragraph in the article, and completely read paragraphs where I thought I needed to know more. I only focused on two main points from the article, for better simplicity of our conversation here. We can look at other things if you like.

Can’t agree with homosexual or any biologically based love being “pure love,” sister, that would be only God Himself, who is agape (Greek; unconditional) love The best we produce is not "pure love," no matter how great it feels

And "lean not unto your own understanding" is not my words, but scripture.

Scripture is scripture bro - it can be life or the dead letter. The problem is not scripture, but rather how its used.

My intention in that post was far from condemnation.

And please forgive me if there was any condemnation in my writing as that is certainly not my intention. But if we know something is harmful and we are silent about it, that is not love . . .

I think “lean not onto your own understanding” is also something very personal. If you’ve never known how it’s like to be lgbtq, then you shouldn’t tell them how to live. Using scripture to voice one’s concerns that homosexuality is sin is “dead letter”, since it makes lgbtq people feel bad, unaccepted, unloved, uncherished. Of course, you would have to walk a thousand miles in my shoes to only understand the tip of the iceburg of what I experience day to day. The thing is, you DON’T know if homosexuality is harmful, so to voice your opinion is to be ignorant and unloving. You might feel you are doing the right thing, but the fact is, using words such as “lifestyle” or cherrypicking verses to infer upon God’s original intention does not help the lgbtq community. They wont change and can’t change! Imagine this, me using verses to tell you your relationship with your wife is sinful and that your love is not pure or real. How would you feel? Thats exactly how thousands of LGBTQ Christians feel when they hear, read, and see these things. I hope this makes sense.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I think “lean not onto your own understanding” is also something very personal. If you’ve never known how it’s like to be lgbtq, then you shouldn’t tell them how to live. Using scripture to voice one’s concerns that homosexuality is sin is “dead letter”, since it makes lgbtq people feel bad, unaccepted, unloved, uncherished. Of course, you would have to walk a thousand miles in my shoes to only understand the tip of the iceburg of what I experience day to day. The thing is, you DON’T know if homosexuality is harmful, so to voice your opinion is to be ignorant and unloving. You might feel you are doing the right thing, but the fact is, using words such as “lifestyle” or cherrypicking verses to infer upon God’s original intention does not help the lgbtq community. They wont change and can’t change! Imagine this, me using verses to tell you your relationship with your wife is sinful and that your love is not pure or real. How would you feel? Thats exactly how thousands of LGBTQ Christians feel when they hear, read, and see these things. I hope this makes sense.

Thanks for the reply!

It's too bad that it appears we are talking past each other. We both have accepted certain things, and now there is a complete mental framework built up around that, which we each think is true. And we now have feelings and experiences to back up each of our frameworks. This is how we humans are, and only the Lord, through His great love, mercy and grace can penetrate these kinds of things.

So I'm not sure what else can be said, if you do not think that homosexuality is something that is even a little "off the mark" in the Bible (like many other manifestations of the flesh that have brought up) . . and it is also thought that gayness is something God designed from the start and is even perhaps something being promoted by Him.

I'm thinking of starting another thread called "LGBTQ+ - Things Learned" so I can speak more freely, as I feel a little constrained due to wanting to be sensitive to feelings on this thread.