The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

[Hodos]

I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-

1/ A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through Watchman Nee. and Witness Lee the Lord's recovery come to a zenith, and that the culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L."

2/ An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "

Thank you,

Hodos
September 4, 2020

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Hodos

I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020

Hi Hodos,

The Corinthians seemed to have much the same problem that you describe above. When they told Paul about their problem, here's what he told them and us, with a few "updates" to bring home the point of these verses to fit your situation.

1 Corinthians 1:11
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe (Vietnam), that there are contentions (disagreements) among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
(I am of Witness Lee. I am of Titus Chu. I am of John So.)
13 Is Christ divided? was Witness Lee crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Witness Lee?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


When Christians are asking which man they should follow, they are asking the wrong question. They are asking how they should divide the Body of Christ by following which man.

Paul asks the excellent question "Is Christ divided?"

Of course, the answer is "no!"

We are to follow Christ. No man. We are free to read the writings of others who have gone before us, as we are led by the Lord Himself. We are also free to reject the writings of others whose purpose is to draw a following unto themselves by insisting "I am of Witness Lee".

Galatians 5 (KJV)
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
We are free to read the writings of Witness Lee, but we are not to be brought into bondage by following Lee or any other man.

John 8:36 (KJV)
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Following Witness Lee will not make anyone free.

I hope this helps,
Nell

[Hodos]

Dear Nell,

Thank you for your reply, and for giving me some very precise instructions that I feel they are right before the eyes of God. The saints of LSM in Vietnam are following their religion’s head, Witness Lee. They dare not leave him, for fear of committing rebellion. And they said several of our brothers were LSM rebels, chasing trash (John So, John Ingall), when we seceded them seven years ago now. These LSM saints are not free to read the books outside of the LSM books.

Hodos

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hodos

I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020

Hi Hodos,

The Recovery people have all kinds of deceitful comments like these to hold their people in bondage. They are all lies.

When LSM came into the Midwest region of the U.S. and divided all the LC's, I was told that "returning to the pure word of God was a tactic of the enemy." They demanded that every LC buy and read their "Morning Revival" books.

How can this be? Martin Luther and all of the Reformers "returned to the pure word of God" and the western world was delivered from the Dark Ages. How can it ever be wrong to return to God's pure and holy word? Who would ever teach that Lee's books are better than the Bible?

Placing LSM's ministry books between LC members and the Word of God is the same as the Roman Catholic Church placing Mary between their members and God.

[Hodos]

Dear Brother Ohio,

Your words that expose plans of Satan, using human words in the LSM to usurp the throne of the pure word of God, the Bible. I have seen that the saints of the LSM in Vietnam no longer read the holy scriptures themselves, they just read their morning revival books. They did not wholeheartedly seek the Lord's revealed words before going to morning meeting of the Lord's day. They slept and woke up late, then brought only their morning revival book, not Bibles, into the meeting room. There they just return and recite from that book only. It is worse and poorer than the meetings of the Protestant denominations that they have so heavily condemned before.

Hodos

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hodos

Dear Brother Ohio,
Your words that expose plans of satan, using human words in the LSM to usurp the throne of the pure word of God, the Bible. I have seen that the saints of the LSM in Vietnam no longer read the holy scriptures themselves, they just read their morning revival books. They did not wholeheartedly seek the Lord's revealed words before going to morning meeting of the Lord's day. They slept and woke up late, then brought only their morning revival book, not Bibles, into the meeting room. There they just return and recite from that book only. It is worse and poorer than the meetings of the Protestant denominations that they have condemned heavy before.
Hodos

Hodos, we now have learned about certain sects in China that exposed the deceptions of the Nee and Lee MOTA claims. The Bible says we will know them by their fruit. Sometimes it takes many years for the fruit to be manifest.

Concerning Nee:

Dr. Lily Hsu wrote a book "My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church."

There also has been much discussion about this book on another thread of this forum.

Dr. Hsu documents how MOTA W. Nee became an idol within the Chinese LC's, and his failures caused many of his beloved followers to become ship-wrecked in their faith. Apostle Paul exhorts us to "hold faith and a good conscience." (I Tim 1.19) Paul never exhorts us to "hold" onto him, or his ministry.

Concerning Lee:

Years ago LSM claimed that all of the "Shouters" on mainland China (they said almost ~10,000,000) were their "fruit." LSM sent them endless books from W. Lee to "perfect" them. Then this "Lord Changhou" sect began worshiping Lee, shouting his name. "Changhou" is Lee's Chinese name. Here is a forum thread on this subject.

Once LSM learned that these Chinese saints shouted slogans and claimed Lee as their god, they were forced to disavow any knowledge of them. Such is the ugly fruit of exalting man. Yet LSM still claims that they cannot "honor Lee" too much.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Hodos

I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-

Hi Hodos,

The comments you quoted from the saints regarding Witness Lee and LSM weigh heavily on me. I think Nell’s answer was excellent, and Ohio’s answer was exactly right too. The Bible says the opposite of what these saints are saying, and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in.

Here are some of my thoughts to add to the mix:

Originally Posted by Hodos

1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.

1.The teaching behind believing that Nee and Lee are some kind of zenith is the teaching of “minister of the age”. One big problem with the minister of the age teaching is that numerous of the so-called MOTAs in the Old Testament are known types and figures, shadows, of who? The Messiah. They are all pointing to Christ. Lee/LSM places Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the most unique man who has ever lived, the One who is supposed to be the fulfillment of these types, simply as one among many men in the long line of MOTAs. No joke. And then after Him, Lee says the MOTA line continues through the apostles and others leading up to Lee himself. But this is not how types and shadows work. If there are more types AFTER the fulfillment of the type, then the original fulfillment (Jesus) becomes a mere shadow of what is after him. In other words, these dear deceived saints are in essence saying that Jesus is a type, a figure, a shadow, pointing to the zenith, the one at the end, Witness Lee. I am horrified for those who continue to teach and believe the MOTA doctrine, for the serious and sobering conclusions such as these that it implies.

God did not send His only Son to die for you and me only for the ultimate peak to be tied to LSM, a lucrative non-profit publishing company based in Anaheim, CA. It’s totally crazy when you say it that way! Jesus says He is the Way to the Father. THE Way. There is no other way. Including LSM. Including Lee. To be unable to give up any other mortal teacher who will be sitting in the same seat as the rest of us to be judged shows just how much in the oppression of fear and bondage they are. But I’m sure they don’t even realize it, so effective are the thought and behavior controlling teachings of this ministry.

Originally Posted by Hodos

2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020

2.Their reference to 1 Corinthians 14:26 is confusing, given that the verse speaks of each one having a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Of almost all the churches out there, the local churches match this the LEAST! Why is that? Because the hymns are chosen by Lee or modified by Lee or written by Lee. The instruction is based on Lee. The revelation is only from Lee. The tongues are non-existent. And the interpretation is only and solely from Lee, OR ELSE!! There is no semblance of “each one has”..... there is only “Lee has”!

I feel for you, Hodos, because there are some responses from LC members where the deception is so great, so deep, and so dark, that you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes. It reminds me of the scene in Ezekiel where the temple is full of idols and everyone has their backs to the temple worshipping Tammuz (a false god, an idol) rather than the God whose glory filled the temple, the real God. They are so blinded that sometimes all we can do is pray for God’s mercy to be extended to them like it has been to us.

We are praying for you.

Trapped

[Hodos]

Hi Trapped,

These words are very correct: “and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in”… “you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes”.

We are praying for them. Thank you for this helpful advice. The words you said about the so-called MOTAs are deep and difficult to understand to us in Vietnam. I will think and study about these things more. I don't understand the abbreviation of MOTA. With God's grace, last time I translated a post of "Very good start, but in progress, many misinterpretations of Scripture" by Fer74 into Vietnamese, then I emailed directly to quite a many leading- ones in the LSM congregations in Vietnam. This time I ask your permission and that of brothers Ohio and Nell to let me translate your just three posts here and translate them into Vietnamese, then post them on facebook and email to them all.

Thank You so much-
Hodos

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Hodos

Hi Trapped,
These words are very correct: “and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in”… “you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes”.
We are praying for them. Thank you for this helpful advice.
The words you said about the so-called MOTAs are deep and difficult to understand to us in Vietnam. I will think and study about these things more. I don't understand the abbreviation of MOTA.
With God's grace, last time I translated a post of "Very good start, but in progress, many misinterpretations of Scripture" by Fer74 into Vietnamese, then I emailed directly to quite a many leading- ones in the LSM congregations in Vietnam. This time I ask your permission and that of brothers Ohio and Nell to let me translate your just three posts here and translate them into Vietnamese, then post them on facebook and email to them all.
Thank You so much-
Hodos

The MOTA abbreviation stands for "Minister Of The Age". Sorry I didn't say that in my first post. The saints you quoted did not say "minister of the age" (MOTA), but when speaking of Nee and Lee being the "zenith" of a "recovery", the MOTA concept may be a big part of what is behind that thought.

In the semi-annual trainings, the co-workers often remind and emphasize that Nee and Lee are the "ministers of the age" (except they are not), and recently even added a new layer of idolatry that Nee and Lee are better and more constituted ministers of the age than any of the ministers of the age before them.

Are you aware of the teaching of "minister of the age"? I can explain it some if it would help clarify what I said in my other post. However, if the minister of the age concept is not a prevalent one among the saints in Vietnam, then an explanation may not be useful or relevant.

You are welcome to translate any portions of my posts that you think are helpful.

[Hodos]

Hi Trapped,

Thank You.

You say:"Are you aware of the teaching of 'minister of the age'."? I can explain it some if it would help clarify what I said in my other post. However, if the minister of the age concept is not a prevalent one among the saints in Vietnam, then an explanation may not be useful or relevant.

In Viet Nam, all the LSM saints in Vietnam have idolised Witness Lee, not Watchman Nee. I see that they consider him as the head of one religion. Witness Lee cannot be in error. I heard some ones from LSM in US coming to VietNam to preach "the teaching of "minister of the age" many years ago. You should explain this false teaching clearly so that I can translated it into Vietnamese and help the blind saints in Viet nam. The LSM saints in Viet Nam are fervently welcoming "The New Man", "The universal Church", and the religion of LSM. Please explain this false teaching also. Thank you so much.

Hodos