Responsibility Of Christians In Responding To Aberrant/Abusive Groups

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Ohio, your quote was that the LC turns brothers into bullies... "malignant narcissist" is a more scientific way of saying "bully".

You can't distinguish between a "bully" and a "malignant narcissist?"

Makes "Raca" and "Moreh" sound like sweet nothings between lovers. (Matt 5.22)

In today's virtue signaling culture you sure scored some points here.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You can't distinguish between a "bully" and a "malignant narcissist?"

Makes "Raca" and "Moreh" sound like sweet nothings between lovers. (Matt 5.22)

In today's virtue signaling culture you sure scored some points here.

Bullies are abusive. Malignant narcissists are abusive. There's nothing to distinguish.

Narcissistic personality disorder, or abusive narcissism, is not "the worst smear", but an actual diagnosis and description.

It is known that there is essentially no treatment available. I personally think that most abusive narcissists have childhood pain or trauma that was never dealt with and so therapy for traumatic events may help, but cracking through the 2-foot concrete wall is a task for the highly trained and not faint of heart.

The diagnosis does not preclude loving your enemy; it just tells you what kind of enemy you are loving and what the hope is for change.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Bullies are abusive. Malignant narcissists are abusive. There's nothing to distinguish.

Narcissistic personality disorder, or abusive narcissism, is not "the worst smear", but an actual diagnosis and description.

It is known that there is essentially no treatment available. I personally think that most abusive narcissists have childhood pain or trauma that was never dealt with and so therapy for traumatic events may help, but cracking through the 2-foot concrete wall is a task for the highly trained and not faint of heart.

The diagnosis does not preclude loving your enemy; it just tells you what kind of enemy you are loving and what the hope is for change.

My dad was abusive, my brother was abusive, my cousin was abusive, my teacher was abusive, the elder was abusive, school kids were abusive, my bosses were abusive, my friends on the forum are abusive, my neighbors were abusive. So it's no wonder I can't recognize malignant narcissistic personality disorder because I have been surrounded by it my whole life!

Thanks for the diagnoses everyone! I prolly need some meds. Any recommendations for chronic and malignant stage four narcissistic personality disorder victimhood?

[UntoHim]

Ok folks. Enough with the narcissists/abusive stuff.

Back to the beginning please:

Responsibility Of Christians In Responding To Aberrant/Abusive Groups

Originally Posted by Cal

What is the responsibility of Christians in responding to aberrant or abusive groups, ministries and leadership, particularly those which abuse authority to bully and control believers?

Given the many Old Testament verses exhorting God's people to defend the defenseless, stand up to oppressors and seek justice, do such commands carry over into the New Testament age and, and if so, how to we fulfill them?

Originally Posted by Cal

Wanting justice for others and even oneself is not necessarily bad, as long as you let God meet it out. Recall Rev 6:10:

"They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?'"

These victims are pleading to God for justice. Are they partial? Are they unaccountable? Are they bitter? How do you know?

And the Bible is full of exhortations that we should seek justice for those who are oppressed and taken advantage of:

"Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow." Isaiah 1:17

"Thus says the LORD, 'Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor.'" Jeremiah 22:3

"Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute."
Psalm 82:3

"Open your mouth, judge righteously, And defend the rights of the afflicted and needy." Ps 31:9

"Thus has the LORD of hosts said, 'Dispense true justice and practice kindness.'" Zechariah 7:9

"The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern." Prov 29:7

These are verses we NEVER studied in the LR. And frankly I think they make them uncomfortable. Their whole culture of allowing oneself to be abused by an organization ignores them, as does their indifference to social justice.

One reason I ask is that we've had LR sympathizers come on this board and halfway admit that people have been abused there, but then they are quick to effectively advise "Get over it." Now I understand the need for putting things in healthy perspective to promote healing. But these advisers are more interested in lightening the load of criticism on the LR than they are with the healing of those abused. Their first priority is that the LR be preserved, all else is secondary, including people.

I understand that God commands us to turn the other cheek. But there is also Matt 18:15-17, in which, in his only mention of the practical local church in his ministry, Jesus chooses to point out that it is a place a person can go to for JUSTICE. I find that very interesting.

This is why I feel good about being a sheep dog.

[Curious]

(Please forgive me, untohim. I wrote all this before I saw that you have redirected us. I hope you will allow me to give a quick explanation to Ohio, who i feel deserves an explanation from me on this).

Yes, dear Ohio, I acknowledge my ‘outburst’ could use an explanation and seems a little out of character for me. Trapped and aron have already done a good job to help contextualise my way-off-the-beaten-track post.

I can add a few things. Only a qualified professional can deliver a clinical diagnosis of narcissism. I am certainly not qualified to say so of the leadership of the LC. But a person may identify traits of it in others. Narcissism is definitely a fad word, along with ‘empath’ and professionals cringe at these terms being applied in a casual way by unqualified people. However, traits of narcissism do forms patterns and as Trapped and aron have helped to pad out, a fairly full cluster is evident in the leadership of the LC, including that narcissists, sadly, are drawn to religion, for reasons that can serve their interests well.

A few more traits are: love bombing a new ‘target’, financial and other forms of exploitation, gas-lighting, destroying reputation (slander campaign when ‘injured’), seeing self as victim, shallowness; no ability to reflect on life issues, or to see another person’s point of view. Low or no empathy, avoiding meaningful connection with others. They are entitled and do not show gratitude, materialism as a means to demonstrate high status. oh, and here's a biggie...they are highly sensitive to and hostile towards any questioning, criticism or accountability being brought to them, though openly critical of others. and i nearly forgot the other biggie, they have a high need for control. To legitimize their control, peddling doctrines or rationale requiring submission of those around them. There are many traits that cross-over to ‘a Jezebel spirit’, maybe a Christian version of a similar profile.

Keeping away from them is for one’s own safety and sanity, not out of hate. We can and should pray for them, as the narcissist lives in their own inner hell. But as trapped said, engaging with them does not help them and can damage us. In this respect they can do great harm to others. They exploit love and kindness, it does not win them over. One can learn this at great cost.

WL probably also suffered another current catch-word, PTSD, as he was waterboarded during WWII, a form of torture and certainly one that would be expected to cause lasting harm. Likely linked to his narcissistic traits. That is also worth considering. (A British movie ‘The Railwayman’ with actor Colin Firth is a good watch to consider this topic as well as the power of forgiveness).

All this said, the warning I gave still stands. To get an understanding of narcissism as a pattern that can be present to varying degrees in the people we may come across is I believe, good advice. I was being a little tongue-in-cheek in my post but I did want to make a strong point. N’s do harm and will drag others down. I was also saying, step back and look objectively and analytically, (the whole clip-board thing). The way they handled the Casteels is especially clear, and Steve Isitt. It was extreme as well as horrifying, and inexcusable.

On a personal note, I advised, don’t be burned twice. I have been burned twice. The second time more subtle or I would have worked it out sooner. Like trapped, I say, forgive them but identify what you are dealing with. They have a special skill-set that an emotionally healthy person doesn’t have, and they are committed to prevailing over others with a force that can be shocking to perceive. Not every bully is a narcissist, but narcissists do bully, though can do it covertly not always overtly.

That’s what is behind my outrageous post!! I am happy we leave this subject behind now, with respect to our administrator's directive.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any recommendations for chronic and malignant stage four narcissistic personality disorder victimhood?

Well Ohio, since you asked that very important question - my answer would be yes! Recommendations are available for free!

Please consider searching for a support group specifically designed to help Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse. If you can't locate one meeting in your city, the group that I organized here in Boise would be an option for you since we have been doing our last couple of meetups online due to the pandemic.

Here is a link to my support group: https://www.meetup.com/Boise-Survivo...ssistic-Abuse/ where you can learn more about me and the resources which I offer.


And please check out my latest (5min) video project which I think sheds even more light on the aberrant & abusive (and Narcissistic) behaviour practised by certain leaders of the LR: https://youtu.be/afwjeLFuy8c I would not feel at all responsible to expose this horrible behaviour were it not for the fact that these LC leaders are still TEACHING members of the group that this is how a true Christ follower should handle controversy and disagreement! These leaders are wolves in sheep’s clothing for sure...


P.S.