POLL: How do you generally view the LC?

[aron]

StG,

in an attempt to re-center this discussion, can you tell us how to have assurance that Bill Freeman and Patsy Freeman weren't two sides of the same coin? How can we be sure that Bill Freeman teaching "Christ in you as everything" and Patsy Freeman's relationship manipulation and meddling weren't just two aspects of the manifestation of one same spirit?

(I didn't know either but am summarising what I've read from various persons who reported knowing them)

Similarly, how do we know that Witness Lee teaching "exercise your spirit" and "God's economy" weren't apace with son Timothy and his motor home business, or "Philip Lee is the Office"? How do we know that these aren't aspects of one and the same spirit?

In my case, I got sober for 2 years before I "touched my spirit on the local ground", and promptly relapsed. Eventually I got sober again and stayed sober this time, but that relapse was a warning that I resolutely ignored, as the pull of spiritual seduction was too strong. Like your friend, I found "the moving of the spirit to be absolutely off the charts", and it impinged on any sobriety (pun intended), clear-headedness, and caution I might have had. Not that there was much to start with.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Stg,

in an attempt to re-center this discussion, can you tell us how to have assurance that Bill Freeman and Patsy Freeman weren't two sides of the same coin? How can we be sure that Bill Freeman teaching "Christ in you as everything" and Patsy Freeman's relationship manipulation and meddling weren't just two aspects of the manifestation of one same spirit?

(I didn't know either but am summarising what I've read from various persons who reported knowing them)

Did you think we were getting a little off topic? Well thanks for trying to recenter this discussion!

You ask a good question, and one I've wondered if someone on here might inquire of. Bill is actually a little bit of an enigma to me, and to others in Scottsdale I've talked with. I was surprised when one brother recently told me he felt really "betrayed" by Bill, choosing to leave with his wife, Patsy. Another brother surprised me when he said he still couldn't read most of Bill's writings, since his marriage was busted-up via Patsy. Lots of negative emotions from all that, obviously. But I also know several here, including me, who still enjoy Bill's writings. And many that were close to him have benefited immensely from Bill's skillful, academic methods for studying scripture (aka here as "laboring in the word"). I profit greatly from these ones, who've learned those skills directly from Bill.

Personally speaking, I have no experience with either Bill or Patsy, as the Lord brought me here immediately after the "big blow-up" in November 1998. I do know that the Anointing still tells me often that I am in the right place (yes, tis He: "My sheep know My voice"), and this is actually confirmed to me in various other ways, including what I see in scripture. I now see my whole life, especially after coming to the Lord in 1974, as being focused on Him eventually bringing me to this gathering. As I've said several times, I learned many things in the LC in the 70s & 80s, but it wasn't until coming to this gathering in Scottsdale, that He showed me how foundational His love was for everything (His motivation & purpose, the key to understanding scripture, etc.). And this seeing of His love, is what really began to seriously expose many of the teachings of WL and practices of the LC as being off the mark (fear based, elitism, central control, etc.) Praise God He brought me here - I am most thankful to Him daily!

So back to Bill being a mystery - from all I've gathered from those who knew him, Bill had one major failing, and that was Patsy. It's easy to "Monday morning quarterback" and say he shouldn't have let his wife do what she did, and then to decide to leave everything (i.e., the Scottsdale gathering) to go with her. But this is what Adam did, and I'm afraid it's just in our genes - "It was that women you gave me!" If you're a man, you probably understand the weakness for the fairer sex. That doesn't excuse either Bill or Adam for the subsequent messes created, but there it is . . .

I don't agree with everything Bill has written. Just this week there was something in his daily devotional, "The Supplied Life," that I was a little bothered by. But then again, I get a little bothered by something almost any Christian writes or says at some point. If you presented me a list of Christian sources, there are likely things I'm a little bothered by with every one of them (including - gasp - Billy Graham). That doesn't mean I throw all of them out. Why? Warts, my friend, warts - we all gots 'em. Of course, some have much bigger warts than others. This is one reason I almost never read anything by WL anymore - too many big warts. But Bill's writings - not so many warts. That is, I haven't seen him go beyond what I consider good, scriptural foundation for his teaching . . . at least in my most humble opinion. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

So bottom-line in answer to your question: Were Bill and Patsy of "one same spirit?" Only God knows for sure, but I don't think so (and I think most around me in Scottsdale would agree, as outlined above). Might I be deceived? Sure, that's the nature of deception, but I don't believe so.

[Sons to Glory!]

For those interested, here's a tally of what the answers have been so far to the two poll questions, with 13 people responding. I've copied the answer key at the bottom (in blue) to refer to. For people that provided a range, like answering "CDF" for the first question, I averaged that response - therefore their answer became a "D". tHE Same for people providing a range of answers to the second question. Not perfect, but should be accurate enough for our purpose here.

1st Question Responses
A -None-
B Two
C Four
D Five
F Two

2nd Question Responses
10 -None-
9 -None-
8 -None-
7 One
6 -None-
5 Two
4 Two
3 Four
2 Two
1 Two

Overall, the answers for everyone averaged together are D+/3.3; In red below are the general corresponding averaged answer results.

(It should also be noted that a few people gave higher/lower answer ranges depending on the what timeframe of the LC they were referring to. For instance, earlier times, like in the 1960s & 70s, were regarded as better, and therefore higher ratings were given by some for those times. These people then also gave lower ratings for later times. If these higher ratings - for an earlier time - were factored in, I would guess the overall average answer might be somewhere around a "C/4" or perhaps a little higher. Of course, if the later times were factored in, the average rating would be lower, perhaps around a "D/2.75".)


ANSWER KEY

Regarding the LC promoting another Christ and/or Gospel, it's:
A = A totally genuine Christ & Gospel
B = A mostly genuine Christ & Gospel (a couple things questionable)
C = A little unorthodox Christ & Gospel
D = Mostly a different Christ & Gospel (questionable & very unorthodox)
F = A completely different Christ & Gospel

The LC :
10 = Is God's one, fresh move on the earth
9 = Is a very key move of God
8 = Is an important move of God
7 = Is one move of God
6 = Was once a genuine move, but slowly faded over time
5 = Was once a genuine move, but quickly got corrupted
4 = Had a couple good things at best
3 = Was somewhat off the mark from the very beginning
2 = Always preached downright heresy
1 = Was and is a tool of Satan

[Curious]

Though at the conclusion, this thread and other recent conversations on this forum have done more to cause me to conclude that ultimately today it is an F1, and any benefit to a beleiver is only a side effect of the 'sheep's clothing' the 'wolf' is disguised in!

Its been interesting to create a Poll. Good interactional tool.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Curious

Though at the conclusion, this thread and other recent conversations on this forum have done more to cause me to conclude that ultimately today it is an F1, and any benefit to a believer is only a side effect of the 'sheep's clothing' the 'wolf' is disguised in!

Its been interesting to create a Poll. Good interactional tool.

Well, maybe some will read this poll who are still in the LC, and perhaps the Lord will convict them through it. I certainly could not recommend a seeking Christian going to be with LC these days. I put them now in a small grouping of Christian-based organizations, which are too legal, elitist, autocratic and focused on some personality, to be considered as healthy. (like the 7 Day Adventists, RCC and maybe the Amish thing) I love our brother & sisters in the LC system, and welcome any fellowship with them.

It does pain me a little to say that, because the Lord definitely led me to the LC in the early 1970s. But as I always have to add, I praise Him he also lead me out, for good, in the late 1980s!

[HBJ]

I have to agree with the post by Sons to glory just before mine. As to my opinion the LC was C4 which quickly morphed to a 3. From my experience, Christians in the LC earnestly and honestly were seeking the Lord. However the 'degraded Christianity' bit became apparent quite quickly which makes me go with 3. I left the LC because of how I perceived it's mocking degradation of other Christians not in the LC. I have too many loving Christian relatives, none in the LC. I have also had many good experiences of sharing Christ together with other Christians from Baptist to Pentecostal to Messianic to Orthodox and yes even Christians in the RCC! I am not going to whack-a-mole another Christian on theology, I am going to seek Jesus together and let Him sort out the 'other stuff'.

Because of the mocking by the LC I have mentally emotional and spiritually given the LC a Zero in my heart, and have thrown everything from it all out in my heart because of the mocking. Maybe God will heal me more with time and show me something good that came out of the LC. I am not there yet.