What a Lack of Increase Really Means for the LC

[Sons to Glory!]

Ya know, I think the one thing that hasn't been mentioned on this thread is that the numbers of counted members in all of Christendom has been shrinking for some time. This brings to mind a wonderful little movie we saw a couple years ago called, "All Saints." Anybody see this? It depicts the true story of All Saints Episcopal Church in (of all places) Smyrna, Tenn. It's about a small group of Christians whose numbers had dwindled dramatically over the past couple decades. A brother was sent there from the diocese to close it down, since they could not justify supporting it financially any more.

This is the case with many, many churches, not just the LC, right? Many groups are desperately trying to get their numbers up by all sorts of marketing methods.

Concerning the movie - it really is one of the best Christian movies I've seen - this brother gets a speaking from the Lord not to close it, and the rest of the movie is about what unfolded after that (and not quite what you'd expect). All Saints movie

[UntoHim]

Of course the reasons for the lack of increase in the Local Church of Witness Lee are drastically different than for most of the other church groups and denominations. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because the members are forced to follow the person and work of one man. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because of wacko teachings like Witness Lee was the only one speaking as God's oracle on earth, that the church is the 4th part of the Trinity and that man is becoming God in life and nature. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because the members live under the fear that if they leave their little sect they will get cancer or get into some terrible car accident. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because their founder and leaders teach that "Judaism is satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is christless".

Uh Oh, Debbie strikes again
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PS. The movie sounds good to me!
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Of course the reasons for the lack of increase in the Local Church of Witness Lee are drastically different than for most of the other church groups and denominations. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because the members are forced to follow the person and work of one man. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because of wacko teachings like Witness Lee was the only one speaking as God's oracle on earth, that the church is the 4th part of the Trinity and that man is becoming God in life and nature. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because the members live under the fear that if they leave their little sect they will get cancer or get into some terrible car accident. Most churches are not experiencing a lack of increase because their founder and leaders teach that "Judaism is satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is christless".

Uh Oh, Debbie strikes again
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PS. The movie sounds good to me!
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Yer like such a bummer, dude! (I was inspired to answer that way as we're talking about Jesus People on another thread)

Yes, different groups may be loosing members for various reasons. But that also doesn't completely negate that some of the lower LC numbers might be influenced by the larger post-Christian world culture that is so very pervasive now. But granted, the whackadoodle stuff in the LC is perhaps the bigger reason.

And yes the "All Saints" movie definitely was good and threw me a curve at the end I didn't see coming at all (actually, it was God who "threw them a curve"). BTW - it got a 95% ratings over on the Rotten Tomatoes movie review website.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, different groups may be loosing members for various reasons. But that also doesn't completely negate that some of the lower LC numbers might be influenced by the larger post-Christian world culture that is so very pervasive now. But granted, the whackadoodle stuff in the LC is perhaps the bigger reason.

Although this thought did come to mind when starting this thread, I think I would I would categorize it as two separate issues. Mainly because the LC just doesn't have enough in common with what is going on in other Christian groups or the types of struggles other groups are facing. Or I should say that the LC has an even bigger hurdle to overcome, they have to be able to effectively address people's doubts about Christianity and they also have to get people to drop their concerns about the peculiarities of the LC environment.

When the LC was starting out in the U.S., WL had all kinds of criticism to offer about Christianity, denominations, etc. While some of it may have been based on valid points, the intention was always about using it to position the LC as something better. In more recent times, the LC has started using the same type of criticism to shift the focus away from its own shortcomings. It should be noted though that some of the criticism that WL offered could very well be factors we would point to in the decline of various groups, particularly the traditional mainline denominations. But if the LC had it all figured out, then why didn't people ever see it as a desirable alternative?

One of the things I am trying to get at here with this thread is that Minoru claims 25,000 LC members in the U.S., and that’s a drop in the bucket compared to just about anything else. For example, there are quite a few megachurches in Southern California that have 10,000 members or more. And actually these types of groups are a relatively recent phenomena, so the potential for growth is obviously still there. It’s just not what is happening in the LC.

[Trapped]

What I don't understand is that they never seem to take a second and think, "Wait, could what these people are saying be true?"

Like, "Hm, person #279 has accused us of being a cult. That's the 279th time that's happened, maybe I should take it seriously. What makes a cult a cult, anyway? *looks up characteristics of cults* Oh...boy.....yeah, I can see a few points kinda sound like us. What should we do about those points, because we sure don't want to operate like a cult!"

The fact that they DON'T do that very rational thing, and the fact that they DO threaten their members with negative repercussions if people go off and read stuff like that.......tells me that the leadership in the Lord's recovery has full well read the characteristics of a cult and sees the truth and doesn't want it to be found out and also has no desire to change for the better.

The only thing I can conclude by the actions of the co-workers is that they know they are operating a sham. You better believe DCP and the ones who write the defensive articles read word-for-word the stuff that's out there about and against the LC. They only scare the members because they can see it all matches up.

Which, to me, can only mean that it's willful deception.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The only thing I can conclude by the actions of the co-workers is that they know they are operating a sham. You better believe DCP and the ones who write the defensive articles read word-for-word the stuff that's out there about and against the LC. They only scare the members because they can see it all matches up.

Which, to me, can only mean that it's willful deception.

When the DCP wrote an article on Daystar, after news of it broke on FaceBook, they omitted WL's son Timothy. According to ones who were there, Timothy came to WL and wanted to start a business making motor homes. WL then actively promoted the idea to LC members as a money-making investment, that it would create jobs, and fund LC activities.

DCP confirms that Daystar was ostensibly created to fund the gospel outreach and support church work. But many who were there knew the role of WL's immediate family, and their initiation of and direct benefit from the company. Yet DCP never mentions this, whilst repeatedly touting what it calls "facts". To me this shows deliberate misrepresentation. They push some facts, and hide others, and try to skew the truth to minimize damage caused by this long-hidden fiasco recently coming to light.

Even when they're forced to address something, they try to evade.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The only thing I can conclude by the actions of the co-workers is that they know they are operating a sham. You better believe DCP and the ones who write the defensive articles read word-for-word the stuff that's out there about and against the LC. They only scare the members because they can see it all matches up.

Which, to me, can only mean that it's willful deception.

For a long time, the DCP and others have simply denied or refused to acknowledge a lot of what has been said about the LC. With the ever increasing audience that social media is reaching, that is no longer a viable strategy.

Recently it seems there's been a bit of a pivot. All the sudden their line of reasoning has become "well we aren't perfect, so don't worry about our mistakes." But that is an even bigger deflection, because the issue has never been the simple fact that mistakes were made.

So whatever is really going on in the LC, it's enough for even ex-members to call it a cult. It's not just outsiders with no affiliation to the LC, it's people who were once members who are readily categorizing it that way. When all the DCP is willing to say is that mistakes have been made, doesn't do anything to address what people are saying about the LC.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

When the DCP wrote an article on Daystar, after news of it broke on FaceBook, they omitted WL's son Timothy. According to ones who were there, Timothy came to WL and wanted to start a business making motor homes. WL then actively promoted the idea to LC members as a money-making investment, that it would create jobs, and fund LC activities.

DCP confirms that Daystar was ostensibly created to fund the gospel outreach and support church work. But many who were there knew the role of WL's immediate family, and their initiation of and direct benefit from the company. Yet DCP never mentions this, whilst repeatedly touting what it calls "facts". To me this shows deliberate misrepresentation. They push some facts, and hide others, and try to skew the truth to minimize damage caused by this long-hidden fiasco recently coming to light.


Notice how they have nothing to say about Timothy Lee or Phillip Lee, but when it comes to anyone who has spoke out, the DCP is more than happy to reference an article about how that person served jail time.


Even when they're forced to address something, they try to evade.

In their Daystar article, they also go on the attack against one of the people who spoke up about what happened. It's a classic example of an ad hominem attack.

People should take note that they make no attempt to address the issues of Timothy Lee or Phillip Lee. Instead, they make reference to an article about how one of the people who spoke up served jail time (for something completely unrelated).

The whole issue with something like Daystar is LC members donated their money, and then it was suddenly gone without explanation. Yes, it was a 'mistake' but more than that, there was never any attempt to really make things right. It has been said that when WL was questioned as to what went so terribly wrong with Daystar, his answer was that the saints have "now lost their virginity."

WL's answer speaks for itself. He admitted that he did something wrong without really admitting to anything more. If the LC can't come clean about this kind of stuff, then they need to stop trying to figure out why people don't trust them.