A Chilling Discovery?

[googlelight]

While studying church history, I discovered the following quote from John Wycliffe: "....the theological doctors cannot have the power of interpretation for us, but the Holy Spirit teaches us the meaning of Scripture, as Christ opened the Scriptures to the Apostles." Seemingly absurd and self-contradictory, I found this quote in http://lordsrecovery.org/history/i.html.

What would the Pope and his minions say at Wycliffs time? Just follow our interpretation and teaching, and you will be okay. What is being said today in the LR, it is not the exact same thing? The ministry being the interpretation of the Bible in TLR today, are they not saying the exact same thing, or am I missing our on something? It would be lovely to investigate this in light of the New Testament and the Lords teaching. I have an open mind concerning this and I would receive any perspective

[Ohio]

Great points!

Wycliffe had another famous quote about this matter, something like -- "that the plow boys would know the bible better than the priests."

Oops, that quote was from Tyndale.
------------------------------------------------
The church history link you cited above is actually quite good. The ground work for this writing is not the Anaheim Blended brothers, but James Reetzke Sr. of Chicago, who recently passed away. I no longer refer to this as "Recovery" history, but "Church" history. What the Lord has done, using His own gifted servants, is not for some obscure collection of Christians centered in Anaheim, but for the whole church, which is His body.

[Barnabas]

I am still involved in gathering with the LC and one of the things that grieves my heart is this saying they have that “We have the interpreted word”. John 16:13 makes clear that it is the Holy Spirit who has the power to interpret the word for us. I do receive some help from this study Bible just as other commentaries, but to say it is the interpreted word is dangerous.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

I am still involved in gathering with the LC and one of the things that grieves my heart is this saying they have that “we have the interpreted word”. John 16:13 makes clear that it is the Holy Spirit who has the power to interpret the word for us. I do receive some help from this study Bible just as other commentaries, but to say it is the interpreted word is dangerous.

Having grown up in the Catholic church, I know how this is used to control their members and to keep them from knowing the truth. The questions would always be posed, "how can you understand what the scriptures say? What if you interpret the bible incorrectly?" I needed a priest, but he needed his writings, and in doubt, eventually the Pope in Rome or some Vatican Council must be consulted.

The Recovery is absolutely the same. The members can't understand the scriptures themselves. We all needed to be trained. Even the elders are not reliable. They too needed more training. Eventually only the writings of Witness Lee, as interpreted by the Blendeds, can be definitive to "rightly divide" the truth.

Let me use an example. Consider the matter of lawsuits, i.e. suing your brother in court. The Apostle Paul in I Corinthians addresses this matter quite clearly. But no, you cannot understand this on your own, you need the interpreted word, you need W. Lee's teachings on lawsuits, which explain how it is perfectly acceptable to sue those who speak negatively.

The Midwest Quarantines made it abundantly clear to me that we had gone down the same paths as Rome of old. How much of the truth were we willing to sacrifice in order to "keep the oneness" of the body? What has become the "standard" for the truth? Was it Nee's so-called "blueprint" in TNCCL or Further Talks, no! Was it even Lee's extensive writings, no! It was the Blendeds' own up-to-date interpretations of Lee's ministry! Such a moving target!

Brothers in the Midwest could not even find out who exactly these "Blendeds" were! Who is "Brother We???" The only answer we could get would be, "the Blended brothers are those brothers who are being blended." Talk about double-speak gobbledygook!

Let's discuss the real reason for the interpreted word. Whether we are examining the Recovery or Catholicism, there are underlying reasons for having binding and exclusive interpretations. It is not to educate, edify, shepherd, train, benefit members. Some of that may be done, of course, but control and power are the real reasons. The fear of misunderstanding weighs on every member. The fear of making independent decisions apart from the fellowship of the body, controls every member.

Also, if we have a Vicar in Rome or a MOTA in Anaheim exclusively dividing the truths of God and ultimately directing all of our lives, then why do we need the Head of the Body any more?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Also, if we have a Vicar in Rome or a MOTA in Anaheim exclusively dividing the truths of God and ultimately directing all of our lives, then why do we need the Head of the Body any more?

Very good question!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Midwest Quarantines made it abundantly clear to me that we had gone down the same paths as Rome of old.

So I'm not the only one who sees the irony in the LSM/GLA split? The Local Churches have long thought of the Catholic church to be the whore and the Protestants to be the children of the harlot. Yet, in that split it seems quite obvious that they were judged as they have been judging. If they thought those things about the Catholics and Protestants, I wonder what they think of themselves today...

googlelight, The Catholics have their own interpretation of scripture but so do the Protestants. Who's is correct? I'd say that responsibility ultimately rests on the individual through their own relationship with God.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

I am still involved in gathering with the LC and one of the things that grieves my heart is this saying they have that “We have the interpreted word”. John 16:13 makes clear that it is the Holy Spirit who has the power to interpret the word for us. I do receive some help from this study Bible just as other commentaries, but to say it is the interpreted word is dangerous.

I too must comment on this. Wow and WOW!!!! How many red flags and alarm bells does that set off!

Let me say this. In all the many hours, days, weeks, months, years I sat under "The Ministry," I can't say I didn't get any light all - there was a little. But when the Lord began to illuminate me (after I left the so-called "Recovery"), that was worth light-years more in light and understanding of His word! When I was led to a gathering that understood that God's love was the basis for all He does toward us, that's when I was really illuminated by the Spirit. (and it was this revelation - that His love is the key motivator for all He does; this love is the foundation to understanding scripture) And those of us gathering here are all very much encouraged to study the scriptures for ourselves and seek Him for understanding - anything else is a BIG RIP-OFF!

This doesn't mean that I don't consult study helps, commentaries, etc. I may even (rarely now) look at a RV footnote from time to time. But mostly I just say something like, "Lord, I don't understand that passage very well. Please give me understanding in this." And He has been faithful to provide the understanding, so, so many times and in so many different ways! I'd never trade that for mountains of The interpreted Word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I too must comment on this. Wow and WOW!!!! How many red flags and alarm bells does that set off!

Let me say this. In all the many hours, days, weeks, months, years I sat under "The Ministry," I can't say I didn't get any light all - there was a little. But when the Lord began to illuminate me (after I left the so-called "Recovery"), that was worth light-years more in light and understanding of His word! When I was led to a gathering that understood that God's love was the basis for all He does toward us, that's when I was really illuminated by the Spirit. (and it was this revelation - that His love is the key motivator for all He does; this love is the foundation to understanding scripture) And those of us gathering here are all very much encouraged to study the scriptures for ourselves and seek Him for understanding - anything else is a BIG RIP-OFF!

This doesn't mean that I don't consult study helps, commentaries, etc. I may even (rarely now) look at a RV footnote from time to time. But mostly I just say something like, "Lord, I don't understand that passage very well. Please give me understanding in this." And He has been faithful to provide the understanding, so, so many times and in so many different ways! I'd never trade that for mountains of The interpreted Word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My experience in studying God’s word is the same Brother! When I come to the Lord in his word I feel as though I know nothing at times. Yes God is faithful to open our understanding (Luke 24:27,32) and reveal himself to us.

I certainly would like to know more about the ones you gather with. That is one concern I have about leaving the LC. I do love the saints and I have many good relations with Believers outside the LC.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

My experience in studying God’s word is the same Brother! When I come to the Lord in his word I feel as though I know nothing at times. Yes God is faithful to open our understanding (Luke 24:27,32) and reveal himself to us.

I certainly would like to know more about the ones you gather with. That is one concern I have about leaving the LC. I do love the saints and I have many good relations with Believers outside the LC.

For some reason I just saw this post . . . where you are asking about the ones I gather with. So I'm in Scottsdale with a group that was originally in the Pacific NW and part of the LC. A gifted brother by the name of Bill Freeman was with them, and he produced various writings, along with a few other saints. In the mid-80s LSM came down on Bill (and the other writers with him) for having "another ministry." They were told to cease & desist in their writings and various outreaches, as it was deemed not to be in line with LSM. These saints broke with LSM some time afterwards.

Around 1990 many of these ones in the Pacific NW felt moved of the Lord to move to Scottsdale AZ, which they did. I believe perhaps over a hundred families pulled up roots and came down to Arizona. Then in 1998 there was big controversy surrounding Bill Freeman's wife Patsy, and both he and Patsy left this fellowship, along with many of Patsy's followers. I also came to this fellowship in that same year.

The group is much smaller now and calls itself simply "Scottsdale Church" (though "Church in Scottsdale" is on filings with the state). We meet freely with any other Christians and groups we feel to, and there is a lot of what I call "cross pollination" with other believers in the area. The larger gatherings are formatted in a similar open concept as the LC practiced - anyone can call a song, read a verse or share an experience of the Lord they feel led to share. There are three, very dear, leading brothers and six bros (including the 3 elders) currently rotate the ministry messages given on Sundays with the Lord's Table. Typically the sharing is directly from a book of the New Testament we are going through, and the normal exposition is basically verse by verse. I find this quite rich and the supporting testimonies after the message are perhaps even richer.

We are totally free (incredibly so in fact) and encouraged to read any Christian author we feel lead to (who is hopefully Christ centered) and there winds-up being a wide range of different sources floating around between saints in this respect! For instance, somebody recently decided we should have a lending library to which anyone could donate Christian books. A considerable amount of books have been donated, categorized and put on the shelves - and I don't think I know half of the authors! (yes, there are some Watchman Nee and perhaps even a couple Witness Lee books)

Any way, I don't want to get too long, because I'm not sure I'm even answering your question the way you'd hoped. Let me just finish by saying that the Lord has been most loving and rich to me in this place these past 20+ years, and He reminds me frequently (along with tears of joy) that this place is an answer to prayer and that it's where He has put me.

What else may I tell you?

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

For some reason I just saw this post . . . where you are asking about the ones I gather with. So I'm in Scottsdale with a group that was originally in the Pacific NW and part of the LC. A gifted brother by the name of Bill Freeman was with them, and he produced various writings, along with a few other saints. In the mid-80s LSM came down on Bill (and the other writers with him) for having "another ministry." They were told to cease & desist in their writings and various outreaches, as it was deemed not to be in line with LSM. These saints broke with LSM some time afterwards.

Around 1990 many of these ones in the Pacific NW felt moved of the Lord to move to Scottsdale AZ, which they did. I believe perhaps over a hundred families pulled up roots and came down to Arizona. Then in 1998 there was big controversy surrounding Bill Freeman's wife Patsy, and both he and Patsy left this fellowship, along with many of Patsy's followers. I also came to this fellowship in that same year.

The group is much smaller now and calls itself simply "Scottsdale Church" (though "Church in Scottsdale" is on filings with the state). We meet freely with any other Christians and groups we feel to, and there is a lot of what I call "cross pollination" with other believers in the area. The larger gatherings are formatted in a similar open concept as the LC practiced - anyone can call a song, read a verse or share an experience of the Lord they feel led to share. There are three, very dear, leading brothers and six bros (including the 3 elders) currently rotate the ministry messages given on Sundays with the Lord's Table. Typically the sharing is directly from a book of the New Testament we are going through, and the normal exposition is basically verse by verse. I find this quite rich and the supporting testimonies after the message are perhaps even richer.

We are totally free (incredibly so in fact) and encouraged to read any Christian author we feel lead to (who is hopefully Christ centered) and there winds-up being a wide range of different sources floating around between saints in this respect! For instance, somebody recently decided we should have a lending library to which anyone could donate Christian books. A considerable amount of books have been donated, categorized and put on the shelves - and I don't think I know half of the authors! (yes, there are some Watchman Nee and perhaps even a couple Witness Lee books)

Any way, I don't want to get too long, because I'm not sure I'm even answering your question the way you'd hoped. Let me just finish by saying that the Lord has been most loving and rich to me in this place these past 20+ years, and He reminds me frequently (along with tears of joy) that this place is an answer to prayer and that it's where He has put me.

What else may I tell you?

Thanks for sharing, I knew Bill Freeman and enjoyed his ministry. I still have a lot of his messages on tape. I was very sad to find out that he was told to stop his ministry. Although I was never told until now, I suspected it. I hope some day the Lord will open a way to visit you all. That would be such a blessing.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

Thanks for sharing, I knew Bill Freeman and enjoyed his ministry. I still have a lot of his messages on tape. I was very sad to find out that he was told to stop his ministry. Although I was never told until now, I suspected it. I hope some day the Lord will open a way to visit you all. That would be such a blessing.

Not sure if you heard, but Bill went to be with the Lord a few years ago. He had a gift, skill and penchant for studying scripture, which he passed down to several ones here. They crack the books and dig into the Greek and we're all the better for it!

And you are most welcome to visit us any time, but if you don't care for excess heat, then I'd recommend coming some time other than June thru mid-September! (actually, we're flirting with triple digits right now . . . )

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Not sure if you heard, but Bill went to be with the Lord a few years ago. He had a gift, skill and penchant for studying scripture, which he passed down to several ones here. They crack the books and dig into the Greek and we're all the better for it!

And you are most welcome to visit us any time, but if you don't care for excess heat, then I'd recommend coming some time other than June thru mid-September! (actually, we're flirting with triple digits right now . . . )

I met Bill Freeman once when he visited us in Columbus ~1978. I remember chatting after the meeting about the Bible with a few brothers including Phil Comfort, who was not yet full-time. Out of the blue Phil asked Bill, "with so many good Greek language helps available, do we really need to study Greek?"

Bill looked at him with an assured smile, "God wrote in Greek." Simple as that.

With Bill's encouragement, Phil Comfort eventually went on to become a noted Textual Scholar in Greek, teach and writing, once he left the Recovery. Phil was always known as a "pure Wordist," using WL only as one reference among many. That upset a few higher-ups. Whereas TC viewed Phil Comfort as a threat, Bill encouraged him and I believe helped to initiate Phil's life-long work, post Recovery.

Years later another brother expressed some remorse concerning Phil, saying that perhaps the churches should have opened our hearts more to him. I said "no," that it was the "heart of TC which was not large enough for Phil and his ministry. The churches loved him."

Phil left "the work" in the early 80's after being badly abused by TC and others in Cleveland. Bill left a few years later after receiving similar treatment at that infamous elders' conference in Feb. 1986. Every publication in the Recovery, including Bill's The Christian, was abruptly halted by WL except, of course, for his own books. All brothers were forced by today's Blendeds to sign that "Letter of Allegiance" to WL. WL used NT examples like Barnabas and Apollos to condemn all those not "absolutely one" with his ministry.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I met Bill Freeman once when he visited us in Columbus ~1978. I remember chatting after the meeting about the Bible with a few brothers including Phil Comfort, who was not yet full-time. Out of the blue Phil asked Bill, "with so many good Greek language helps available, do we really need to study Greek?"

Bill looked at him with an assured smile, "God wrote in Greek." Simple as that.

With Bill's encouragement, Phil Comfort eventually went on to become a noted Textual Scholar in Greek, teach and writing, once he left the Recovery. Phil was always known as a "pure Wordist," using WL only as one reference among many. That upset a few higher-ups. Whereas TC viewed Phil Comfort as a threat, Bill encouraged him and I believe helped to initiate Phil's life-long work, post Recovery.

Years later another brother expressed some remorse concerning Phil, saying that perhaps the churches should have opened our hearts more to him. I said "no," that it was the "heart of TC which was not large enough for Phil and his ministry. The churches loved him."

Phil left "the work" in the early 80's after being badly abused by TC and others in Cleveland. Bill left a few years later after receiving similar treatment at that infamous elders' conference in Feb. 1986. Every publication in the Recovery, including Bill's The Christian, was abruptly halted by WL except, of course, for his own books. All brothers were forced by today's Blendeds to sign that "Letter of Allegiance" to WL. WL used NT examples like Barnabas and Apollos to condemn all those not "absolutely one" with his ministry.

Thanks much for sharing that! I always really enjoyed Phil - he was such an easygoing and sincere brother. I heard him share a few things in the Columbus gatherings when we lived there, and it was always a blessing to be recipients of his understanding of the word! I didn't know about the admonishments directed at him by Titus.

And regarding Bill, "The Christian" monthly newspaper circulated pretty widely among Columbus saints. Our family had our own subscription I think. Then one day it just stopped, and I don't think we had any idea why back then. However, I remember picking up a radio program of his on shortwave, all the way from the west coast. I still have that old multiband radio around somewhere, with a mark on the dial where we could receive the broadcast (shortwave can be hard to tune in precisely).

I didn't know Bill personally, as he and wife, Patsy, left in the "big blow-up" here in 1998. I came to the Scottsdale gathering exactly one week after that, I'm convinced that was the Lord's timing. Some time later, I stood up after a hearing a message about being grafted in, and said, "Bill Freeman got taken away, and then the Lord grafted me in the following week!" I think people had widely mixed reactions to that somewhat awkward pronouncement . . .

But I did get to hear Bill speak some in the early 90s. I had been transferred to Phoenix and we would frequently make the drive across the valley to Scottsdale on Sundays to be there. Bill's speaking was good and the place was hopin'! A few hundred were packed into the newly finished meeting place, and we often would have to sit along the back wall, in what was actually intended as the book sale area. Before getting to know anyone there, my work then transferred me to Denver. But I'm so thankful the Lord lead me back to the Scottsdale gathering about five years later, albeit without the Freemans there. As mentioned earlier, we all still benefit from Bill instilling effective study habits in several of the saints here!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I didn't know Bill personally, as he and wife, Patsy, left in the "big blow-up" here in 1998. I came to the Scottsdale gathering exactly one week after that, I'm convinced that was the Lord's timing. Some time later, I stood up after a hearing a message about being grafted in, and said, "Bill Freeman got taken away, and then the Lord grafted me in the following week!" I think people had widely mixed reactions to that somewhat awkward pronouncement . . .

Interesting Sons to Glory.

After he made Phil move to Cleveland, TC shamed and humiliated Phil publicly in front of all the brothers in Cleveland. He can be just brutal. What TC did to Phil Comfort in Cleveland really upset the brothers in Columbus. TC had a way of making enemies by the way he treated brothers. It seemed like this same scenario was repeated somewhere in the Midwest every year.

After Phil moved back to Columbus, then TC charged the brothers there to restore him to the eldership, iow "go clean up that horrible mess on aisle 71." Phil left the work and met with the church for a while, but his heart had left town. Most of the leaders had lost all respect for TC. In the midst of that turmoil in Columbus, the Lord moved me away. It was the Lord's timing to give me a fresh start.

You can say TC's ministry was a great help in the Midwest. It really was. TC was far more learned than any of those lackey blendeds. He was much more knowledgeable of the scriptures. Yet, from the eyes of a long time deacon, it seemed like his ministry was always 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.