ETERNAL TORMENT IS FALSE TEACHING WHAT SAY YE'?

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Dear brother BJB,

I disagree.

Do you know what Babu means? It's too easy to make judgements against people without knowing much about them. I encourage you to find more of his articles and read them before making such claims against him.

The topic is eternal torment. I presented it because I have.major issues with it and how it makes God look. I don't like everything about Babu's presentation but it's the best I've seen yet.

So... BJB,

Tell me, do you believe God considered everything before creation and then pulled the trigger knowing that those who reject his plan won't just die but suffer in eternal agony for some glorious cruel I told you so?
IMHO...if you believe that you have character issues as well.

I don't mean that as an attack but a wake up slap.

Holy hugs and kisses to you dear brother!
Hose Jr

I never heard of Baba Babu before; we have all been down that road of diving into some man's great teaching that is snips, cut and tape scripture presentation. I pointed out that part of his argument included an entity not found in scripture- God the Son. Not a small error in my opinion.

I also included two verses from Paul to Timothy that do speak of how we should view God's heart toward man. Particularly important to me is that God is savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of those who believe. I believe and want that "especial", but I also recognize that there is an ALL in there. I don't- I use the word think in this case rather than believe- that God is not in the business of eternally punishing man.

What do you think of the two Timothy verses given by Paul, an apostle by the will of God?

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I never heard of Baba Babu before; we have all been down that road of diving into some man's great teaching that is snips, cut and tape scripture presentation. I pointed out that part of his argument included an entity not found in scripture- God the Son. Not a small error in my opinion.

I also included two verses from Paul to Timothy that do speak of how we should view God's heart toward man. Particularly important to me is that God is savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of those who believe. I believe and want that "especial", but I also recognize that there is an ALL in there. I don't- I use the word think in this case rather than believe- that God is not in the business of eternally punishing man.

What do you think of the two Timothy verses given by Paul, an apostle by the will of God?

"I included 2 verses from the apostle Paul. in 1Tim 2, Paul points out that it is God’s desire for all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth- that’s God’s desire, and I think God gets what he wants. The way is through the one man Jesus the Christ, who gave himself a ransom for all.

Next was 1Tim 4.10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11These things command and teach.

God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

I haven't known of Babu long enough to jump to such a conclusion about him as you have. I prefer not to be so quick to judge.

Nevertheless,

As quoted previously..."God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Are you a universalist?

If God is the savior of all men then why are we still here? Scripture teaches He wills that none would perish but says many will.

I say there Old boy....I ain't no chicken I'm a Rooster��

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by manna-man

"I included 2 verses from the apostle Paul. in 1Tim 2, Paul points out that it is God’s desire for all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth- that’s God’s desire, and I think God gets what he wants. The way is through the one man Jesus the Christ, who gave himself a ransom for all.

Next was 1Tim 4.10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11These things command and teach.

God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

I haven't known of Babu long enough to jump to such a conclusion about him as you have. I prefer not to be so quick to judge.

Nevertheless,

As quoted previously..."God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Are you a universalist?

If God is the savior of all men then why are we still here? Scripture teaches He wills that none would perish but says many will.

I say there Old boy....I ain't no chicken I'm a Rooster��

¿What in the world is a universalist? Seems there is a label for everything. No, bro I just a Christian who try’s to walk in faith.

But, back to Paul and Tim- I ask myself, why Paul would tell Tim “all” men and then “especially those who believe”. If I was Tim, I would think that all means all. But in the scriptures, it seems with the right combination of verse fragments, one can have the scriptures saying just about anything.

One thing the scripture does not use is God the Son. It definitely presents the Son of God, and the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus, but Son of God- that’s a nyet (a little Russian collusion there). But the Baba Babu sticks it right in his dissertation

Son, Ah say son, you got to be with it, we don’t want no fox to get the chickens in this barnyard.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

¿What in the world is a universalist? Seems there is a label for everything. No, bro I just a Christian who try’s to walk in faith.

But, back to Paul and Tim- I ask myself, why Paul would tell Tim “all” men and then “especially those who believe”. If I was Tim, I would think that all means all. But in the scriptures, it seems with the right combination of verse fragments, one can have the scriptures saying just about anything.

One thing the scripture does not use is God the Son. It definitely presents the Son of God, and the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus, but Son of God- that’s a nyet (a little Russian collusion there). But the Baba Babu sticks it right in his dissertation

Son, Ah say son, you got to be with it, we don’t want no fox to get the chickens in this barnyard.

Mornin BJB,

Ezekiel 18 one of my favorite go to places in the bible which lays down clearly who will live and who will die.

It also reveals that God takes no pleasure in carrying out judgement that he would prefer all would be saved.

It's so redundant even I get it.

A Universalist believes that all humankind will eventually be saved. This can not be true because scriptures make it clear that a choice is to be made and consequences have been established...Eternal Life or Death.

Eternal torment is a false narrative/seed designed to...when it germinates...Makes you question the character of God our Savior.

I'm not twisting words. Merely showing that eternal torment makes no sense.

Peace.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Mornin BJB,

Ezekiel 18 one of my favorite go to places in the bible which lays down clearly who will live and who will die.

It also reveals that God takes no pleasure in carrying out judgement that he would prefer all would be saved.

It's so redundant even I get it.

A Universalist believes that all humankind will eventually be saved. This can not be true because scriptures make it clear that a choice is to be made and consequences have been established...Eternal Life or Death.

Eternal torment is a false narrative/seed designed to...when it germinates...Makes you question the character of God our Savior.

I'm not twisting words. Merely showing that eternal torment makes no sense.

Peace.

So what is this “all” thing and the “especially” that Paul speaks to Tim about?

And here I find another “all”, this time from Jesus the Christ John 12
30Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

I would think Paul and Jesus would have wanted to make it clear that only a few will make it and the rest will just cease to exist.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So what is this “all” thing and the “especially” that Paul speaks to Tim about?

And here I find another “all”, this time from Jesus the Christ John 12
30Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

I would think Paul and Jesus would have wanted to make it clear that only a few will make it and the rest will just cease to exist.

BJB,

Are you saying the bible contradicts itself?
Or..
Are you seeing what you want to see?

Have you read Ezekiel 18? If you didn't, consider the following...


Ezekiel 18 King James Version (KJV)
18 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,

2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,

11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,

12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,

13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


BJB, is there any room for "ALL" in Ezekiel 18
or is Ezekiel 18 now irrelevant?

King James Version (KJV)

31And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.

And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


BJB,

Above we have an excerpt of Genesis chapt 1.

God looked upon all and it was said that "ALL" was very good.

Having read from A to Z was God wrong or do we need to read between the lines and consider everything in the context of the full gospel?

All peace and grace to you dear brother!

[manna-man]

A sharing of Ezekiel 18...

https://youtu.be/o2iez_A8D9I