Minoru Chen is filled with Witness Lee's spirit?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my last post I really attempted to answer ByHisMercy on this topic of hiding identities using today's media as an example, but my post was edited/deleted.

I figured my example was more readily understandable to typical Americans than some obscure "guanxi network," which is totally foreign to our culture.

Best of luck, aron. After reading your many posts on this subject, the best I can say to describe the "guanxi network," is "hive mentality." Perhaps I am way off the mark, though.

Ohio,

I don’t think you’re off the mark at all. A “hive mentality”, a “collective”, a generationally established Chinese ancestral network (guanxi?), all seem to add up to one thing: a counterfeit Christian community. Of course, many, if not most of those in the Local Churches are true, born-again believers in Jesus. We know this.

The counterfeit? A ranking member with an apparent longstanding belief (and teaching his belief to others) that he is filled with the spirit of an “ancestor.” This is not only counterfeit but is heresy. Heresy that has apparently been taught openly in their meetings for quite some time by at least one “blended”.

The brilliance of it (a bad brilliance) seems to be that both sides of the matter, LC v. Former members, are left to duke it out over Lee’s flawed and failed “ministry” and its bad fruit. This is an argument that can, and probably will, never be resolved. This is a symptom of the real problem.

We can thank Minoru Chen for pulling back the curtain on the real problem...”the hive”. Curious connected these dots for us, as did you. As did Aron. We have been fighting the wrong battle. Witness Lee’s flawed and failed “ministry” pale in comparison to the undercurrent of the hive. Witness Lee’s ministry was/is only a vehicle to achieve an end...an end that seemingly has little to do with building the church.

What then? One possibility, in his Old Way v. New Way topic, BoxJoBox told us about this:
“I looked the other day at their IRS 990T for 2018 and their asset book value of $100.7 million- I guess their business model works for them.“ (And they can’t refund the $$$ their Daystar investors lost!!!!)

So what is the LSM? A front company for the hive? What is Witness Lee’s “ministry”? A false flag?

Whatever is genuine in this whole matter is genuine because of God’s mercy; whatever is genuine is because of God’s anointing of his Word and the truth of his Word. There has no doubt been genuine and rich and eternal blessings poured out by God Himself. God blesses his people as he has done for centuries before Lee and his “family business” came on the scene. (The “family business”has new meaning, doesn’t it?)

My walk with the Lord really began when I heard the brothers sharing in the meetings in the early days. They were sharing the truth of God’s word that rings to this day. What came after those early days, I remember only as a lot of words. Repetitious hollow words.

So I guess now I’m in as much trouble, if not more, than Aron. It’s making sense to me.

Nell

PS: I’d like to read your example on “today’s media”.

[Boxjobox]

I was reading today in Luke- the beloved physician, Luke 13, where he writes about a woman in the synagogue having a "a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up". Jesus heals her, loosing her from her infirmity. A squabble rises because it was done on the sabbath, and Jesus says "16So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”

I'm not trying to give a bible study, but only personal thoughts; I have no insight that would reveal the nature of the spirit world. But it seems to me that the spirit that possessed Lee was one of making a business out of the things of God, which involved setting himself up as someone special and unique and holding special powers from God. Peter ran across a similar person/spirit in Acts 8, and Paul in Acts 13 with Bar-Jesus. It would seem to me that if Minoru feels he has the spirit of Lee, that he is being possessed with that thinking he is someone special, with an overwhelming desire to make merchandise of God's word and God's people.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

...I'm not trying to give a bible study, but only personal thoughts; I have no insight that would reveal the nature of the spirit world. But it seems to me that the spirit that possessed Lee...

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

But what was the overwhelming motivation that led WL to even set himself up as a deputy authority and insist that his speaking was the word, and demand that all local churches accept his authority and LSM? Why would a little bible preacher, who did such a great job establishing the "local" church, and the recovery of the church wreck what he worked so hard to establish. What was that motivating force, what drove him to turn his back on such faithful servants of the Lord as John Ingalls? In my view, what was the work of the Lord to establish scriptural assemblies- something that hasn't been practiced in over 1700 years was destroyed by this motivation (and of course, by all who played along with it).

And now Minoru says he has the same spirit.
And now Minoro feels he has the same spirit

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

It's a reality that there actually are demonic spirits everywhere...around every corner...? Maybe?

From NTA: "The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of demons any more than it attempts to prove the existence of God. It simply reports on their activities as if its readers accepted their existence. Nor did the early church fathers have a problem with the reality and personality of demons. ...

"But we need not fear Satan and his demons as long as you cling to God's truth. Their only weapon is deception." Our only weapon is truth and its power to dispel the darkness.

NTA's books educate people to the reality of the spirit world and report on the possibility of their activity in our lives. The Bondage Breaker does emphasize that he is not looking for demons around every corner. It would be a good idea not to give up on the book. Many people have been helped with the light NTA brought to the subject, myself included. He emphasizes truth as the only weapon against deception and it is the tactic of Satan and his minions to deceive, as we first saw in Gen. 3.

Nell

[Nell]

This video by Neil T. Anderson will put things in perspective as an alternative to the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, his answers are excellent.

Nell

[UntoHim]

The simple truth is that Minoru is just like all of us....or I should say like many of us use to be. Many of us were captivated by a wonderful vision - Christ and the church. Any thoughts of Asian/Chinese culture, much less any intricate guanxi network, were the farthest thing from our hearts and minds. Everything was so simple - just love the Lord, the saints, and of course - and above all - the church. "God's eternal purpose" guided our every thought, motive and action. What else was worth sacrificing all or our time, energy and emotion for? What else was worth abandoning jobs, careers, friends and even family? Many of us were young and in love - literally babes in the faith, and decidedly blind as a bat in love.

So what happened? Why does Minoru Chen seem so out of touch with the truth, and even reality? Why does he still vehemently deny what all of us now see as plain as day? How is it that speaking the words "I am filled with brother Lee's spirit" seem so offensive, and even patently unchristian to us today? Who changed? Who moved away from "Christ and church"? Well, let me tell you, it is not Minoru who has moved away. He is still there right where we left him - a devout follower of the person and work of Witness Lee. He is still speaking the same language, the same vocabulary. If we are honest with ourselves, back in the day, Minoru's speaking would have been very normal to us. In fact, we would have probably stood up after the message and testified loudly and strongly "Amen! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Oh, Lord Jesus, I too am filled with Witness Lee's spirit!"

My brothers and sisters, there is indeed "a spirit" at work here. It is the very same spirit that has been at work in the Local Church of Witness Lee/Watchman Nee since the beginning. This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the initiation of the "New Way". This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the late 70s during the Max Rapaport/young people fiasco, or when LSM started charging $50 for us to sit in those hard plastic seats for 30 training messages twice a year. This spirit did not just suddenly appear in the move from Elden Hall to Anaheim, or when the Daystar debacle robbed many of the saints of their life savings. This spirit did not just suddenly appear when Witness Lee lied to us gullible Americans by telling us he was leaving a blessed and fruitful work in Taiwan to "bring the Lord's Recovery to the top Christian country on earth". Shall I go on? Shall I relate the multiple testimonies of brothers and sisters in the Far East who could tell us about this spirit at work from the earliest days in mainland China? If Dr. Lily Hsu was willing, I'm sure she could testify and confirm - for now we can just read and weep over the pages of her testimony in My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Does the fact that this spirit has been at work among the leadership in the Local Church movement negate or nullify all the wonderful and glorious things the Lord was able to do in and among us? Well I would say that it neither negates nor nullifies any more than the Children of Israel's disobedience and worship of false God's negated or nullified the promises made to Abraham all those thousands of years ago. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob blessed and multiplied despite all the sins and despite all the wickedness. Sometimes, many times, maybe even most of the time, God blesses and multiplies not because of man's faithfulness or dutifulness, but in spite of it. And many times he has poured out his Spirit despite our unfaithfulness and despite our sinfulness. In the case of the Local Church, he has poured out a measure of his Spirit and his blessing despite the fact that another spirit has been allowed to work among them. Yes, may God have mercy on us all.
-

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

This video by Neil T. Anderson will put things in perspective as an alternative to the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, his answers are excellent.

Nell

Thanks for posting this, Nell. I thought about ordering Andersons' book you referenced earlier but had not, and this interview gives great insight to what he is believing and speaking. I haven't listened to the whole thing but what I have is great and I am in agreement with. His topic pertains to a member of my family.....just thank you for this link.