Bible as the Absolute Authority

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by OBW

Somewhat true. And moreso in some places than in others. But the idea that we all are teachers in terms of the meetings for worship is inconsistent with the example provided. It does seem that the apostles taught (in the beginning) and then teaching was also done by elders (if we consider Paul's qualifications for elders). Not saying there is no place for the voice of the rest of us. But maybe our voice is mostly in the praise and worship of God.

And in the evangelical setting, this limited to singing (and too often songs that are more about us than God). We are more observers of others. And the amount of singing and scripture reading has been reduced further so that we can listen to a longer theological treatise that is often of little practical value other than to check off a box saying we "learned more about God." As much as we tend to dismiss the older liturgical traditions as "Christless," I wonder if we are missing something of the participation in worship beyond singing. Speaking together in almost all parts of the time of worship besides that much shorter sermon that is common there.

It is something that has seemed worthy of some further study.

I was raised a R Catholic, and have attended Lutheran "services" as well- the people sing, there are responsive prayers by the people, there is prayer for the unity of the Church, there is the Lord's table as the center of the gathering, the NT and OT are read- yes, there is something to consider and learn from the historical. Yet it is obvious that that whole liturgy was written for the masses of people who were illiterate and did not have individual bibles which they could read. For the time, I'm sure it was the best that could be done. Today, for the most part, everyone can read and have numerous translations of scripture at their fingertips. I can pull up a multitude of teachers on the internet and listen to messages on any and all bible topics. Yet, the typical modern day Christian gathering seems centered around a teacher and their teaching.
The thing that attracted me about the "recovery" was saint reading their bible, applying what they read and speaking, praying, praising, encouraging, etc., from what they got- worked the good land of their inheritance, brought their portion, and offered it up. God seemed glorified, the saints were encouraged, and there was building of God's house.
Then came the LSM takeover and the authoritative speaking of scripture that brought about fellowship, was replaced by a man's lofty teachings and then authority. All things were not the result of the individual working their inheritance and bringing their fruit, but adhering to and exalting LSM, and the lamp stand went out and it got dark!
Obviously, in the beginning, there was a need for teaching, as well as supernatural gifts apparently, but according to Paul ( Ephesians), that was to bring about the function of each member, and each member was responsible for the whole- Paul did not write his teachings to the Pastor of a church , but to all the saints.
It's amazing to me that the "recovery" sank so low and that the saints and the movers and shakers do not realize from whence they have fallen, and repent and do the first works. W. Née, whom they seem to want to stand on his shoulders, warned severely about spiritual pride. WL obviously fell off WN's shoulders, hit his head and got dillusional.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

The thing that attracted me about the "recovery" was saint reading their bible, applying what they read and speaking, praying, praising, encouraging, etc., from what they got- worked the good land of their inheritance, brought their portion, and offered it up.

I do not necessarily have a problem with what is effectively some kind of "testimony time." But the very pattern of the teaching Jesus, of the things he said and taught to his disciples that were different from what he taught generally to the masses leads me to think that we are misapplying the notion of the priesthood of believers when we suggest that we can all just do it and it will be wonderful.

Yes, it is appealing, especially to people who have been taught from birth that they can do anything they put their minds to. But even that notion is part of the myth of American exceptionalism. Jesus was very clear in how he taught his disciples about being a different kind of leader, not how to not have leaders. And he taught them consistent with the manner of rabbis of the day who had disciples who would become rabbis and do the same thing he did.

We think that the printing press and general literacy raises us all to the level necessary to cast off leadership and be a commune of equal input. But the evidence on that subject is that it is not true. Instead, we have more crazy interpretations every day.

There are at least two sides to this. We need those who have the interest, calling, ability, etc., to give their time to the study of the scripture to bring us what we cannot get to on our own (and help keep our individual studies on the right track) and at the same time need to be aware enough not to let charlatans say that X really means Y. That was much harder when most of us were illiterate.

But if the time of worship is to be at least partly given to whatever I and others like me find from our private time reading the word, then we need help. It may be appealing, but it does not instill in me a sense of peace or certainty.

Besides, whether in or out of the "recovery," what kind of application of the study of the scripture are we talking about? My observation seems to point to a more filled-in structure of knowledge, or something to say in a meeting, not something that applies to "ordinary" life (which appears to be what we were put here for in the first place).

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by OBW

I do not necessarily have a problem with what is effectively some kind of "testimony time."

What you say brings us back to the authority of the scriptures, the individual, interpretation, meeting together, opinions, leadership, and absolute leadership which overrides the authority of the scripture and the conscience of the individual. The individual comes to faith as an individual usually from hearing the gospel from another individual or group of people and then there is the desire and need to fellowship and a need to be taught. But at what point does the child become an adult and think for themselves? The hardest thing in a family for parents is when the sweet youth becomes a teenager and begins to opine from their own volition! The parental authority is confronted and a dance of wills occurs for a few years until finally the youth is an adult. In the assembly of Christians there are the young, the teenagers, the adults, the elders- I'm talking spiritually, not necessarily agewise. There are the gifts of the Spirit, and probably more important the fruits of the spirit which can bind us together.
The R Catholic model which prevailed for over 1000 years was a hierarchy from the ignorant masses and the priest up to the absolute ruler, the pope. Then came the printing press and literacy and the authority of the RC system crumbled for the most part. It seems to me that that is when the "authority of the scripture" became the thing. Then came the divisions over interpretation and the authority of one leader vs another based on itheir interpretations. Every group claims "the authority of the scripture", but based on their interpretation. Most modern day Christian assemblies seem to lean on a kind of importance of scripture, a pastoral system of audience and pastoral authority to teach and interpret, and if the individual doesn't like it they can go to another little system with a different pastor or start their own. The more popular and charismatic a pastor the bigger the following. So teaching seems to be the center.
Along comes WL and introduces the concept of the LC with the mutual fellowship of the saints with elders to keep things in check- a recovery. Except, he then morphed into a pope figure with divine authority and instead of recovering the idea of the LC, turned it into his own LSM domain, not unsimilar to the mideaval RC. The recover of the LC was over and replaced with LSM, and the authority of the scripture was replaced with WL/LSM teachings.
So, what is the authority of the Bible? Does it rest on the best interpreter? Are the saints just the ignoran masses that need to be taught for their whole life?

[Boxjobox]

Both Peter and John spoke of the priesthood of the saints- a royal priesthood, a kingdom of priests to his God and Father. Paul, who was not a disciple of Jesus, yet called to be an apostle to the Gentiles set up the pattern of assembly which we have in his epistles. Seems to me that Ephesians gives the best view of what God did through Christ to bring about that royal priesthood and the importance of each member adding to the building up of the church. Corinthians seems to further enlighten with the backdrop of a teenage assembly that needed direction. The epistles are written to the whole church- all the saints, not to the head pastor of Corinth to get it together- I think this speaks volumes of the priesthood of the saints- but that's just my interpretation! I would say that the modern church needs "recovery". And the LC saints and elders really need to repent and return to that which was from the beginning. There is no need for LSM and LSM was an affront to a real recovery because it usurped the authority of the Bible.

Local churches- return to a common Christian bible, throw out the LSM and WL teachings recognizing that they led astray from the recovery.

[Boxjobox]

We are all probably more than familiar with two verses that talk about the authority of the scripture 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. and Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Coming to the LC in '74, My perception was that the scripture was given this authority, both in the individual and in the assembly. As time went on, this authority transferred to the WL/LSM speaking/publications. In my early times, I remember even joking with brothers about what WL would say- Don't say WL said that, say the Bible said that. But as time went on, all non LSM material disappeared and all speaking became WL/LSM. Eventually, what was profitable for teaching was only LSM. People were sized up, pierced and divided by what WL spoke.
When "the New Way" came in, the scripture became little more than a reference book. The "New Way" was a total departure from the authority of scripture to the authority of LSM. WL would speak of LSM as his ministry to "get the word of God out" , which actually was equating his words as authoritative scripture!

It is time for those who take the position of being "the Church" to examine what they really have become-subsidiaries of LSM. The term " the church in xxx" really means "LSM in xxx". I would urge those in this position to look at the history, look at from where you have fallen, return back to a common Christian bible, repent, clean house (disassociate with LSM) and return to the authority of the scripture. I remember in the early years, James Barber coming to our assembly and giving a history of the Lors's recovery. If James were alive today his historical account would have to now include how the "recovery" lost its way and degenerated into something worse than the poor, poor Christianity that was ridiculed back then.
Falling seems to be the way of man, repentance, turning from error back to God's truth is the way of real "recovery".
WL brought us the view of how to meet as the church- bravo for that, his early teachings helped guide the saints- very good, his speaking eventually overshadowed the scripture- not good!, his organization LSM took over control- very fallen!! A humble repentance, a genuine return to scripture, a rejection of the corrupting organization, can bring back the lampstands.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Coming to the LC in '74, My perception was that the scripture was given this authority, both in the individual and in the assembly. As time went on, this authority transferred to the WL/LSM speaking/publications. In my early times, I remember even joking with brothers about what WL would say- Don't say WL said that, say the Bible said that. But as time went on, all non LSM material disappeared and all speaking became WL/LSM. Eventually, what was profitable for teaching was only LSM. People were sized up, pierced and divided by what WL spoke.

Yes, I had some of that experience too --> very telling, isn't it!?