Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Those are the two things I suspected some on here might have issue with!

As far as "must" (call on Him) it does say that, "Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Phil 2:11) But it might be more palatable to some to replace "must" with "should."

And I have an awareness that some object to saying Christ became a Spirit (at least I think that's what they object to), but I haven't figured out why exactly . . .

The issue lies in saying Christ became The Spirit because 1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn’t say that. Here is what it actually says

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-45.htm
Speaking in the context of resurrection it says The last Adam was made a life giving spirit (a not The, and small s not capital S). This speaks of Jesus Christ as the last Adam in contrast to the first Adam that God made a living soul. Jesus came to raise the dead and to give life, and give it abundantly. That is his function, not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

The issue lies in saying Christ became The Spirit because 1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn’t say that. Here is what it actually says

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-45.htm
Speaking in the context of resurrection it says The last Adam was made a life giving spirit (a not The, and small s not capital S). This speaks of Jesus Christ as the last Adam in contrast to the first Adam that God made a living soul. Jesus came to raise the dead and to give life, and give it abundantly. That is his function, not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity.

Amen. This - "not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity" - gets into matters of the Trinity, of which I don't understand and am not qualified to speak. Various verses do say "Spirit of His Son" and "Spirit of Christ" and "Spirit of Jesus." (Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6, Acts. 16:7) I've heard it said that these are referring to the indwelling Christ, while the HS is without for power. Could that be?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Amen. This - "not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity" - gets into matters of the Trinity, of which I don't understand and am not qualified to speak. Various verses do say "Spirit of His Son" and "Spirit of Christ" and "Spirit of Jesus." (Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6, Acts. 16:7) I've heard it said that these are referring to the indwelling Christ, while the HS is without for power. Could that be?

Right, there are many other verses to look at (I have links below to the Greek inter linear of them because it shows whether the article The or a are really there and whether spirit is capitalized or not). When I read them all together it seems that there is something mysterious about how Christ is in us and The Spirit is too.

Galatians 4:6

https://biblehub.com/blb/galatians/4.htm

2 Corinthians 3:17

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

2 Corinthians 3:18

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-18.htm

Acts 16:7

https://biblehub.com/text/acts/16-7.htm

Philippians 1:19

https://biblehub.com/text/philippians/1-19.htm

Romans 8:9


https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-9.htm


Romans 8:10

https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-10.htm

Colossians 1:27


https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-27.htm

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for those verses and Greek references! Yes, it would seem where pneuma (spirit) is pertaining to divinity the article "the" is used in front of it. The times it is not used would seem to indicate our human spirit (as Romans 8:9-10 clearly shows).

1st Corinthians 3:16 says, “Do you not know your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?” I remember being in a Romans training where Lee was talking about this passage in Romans 8:9-11 (edited from Greek - see below):

You, however, are not in flesh, but in spirit, if indeed Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead is dwelling in you, the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells in you.

I recall Lee conveyed something like this regarding the above passage - "So who is in you? Is it God? Is it Christ? Is it The Spirit? No one can say for sure! It seems it could be pretty crowded in there! " And then he laughed. The point I took away is that no one can figure this out in our limited, human mentality. It's like the pot trying to figure out the potter, who is infinitely more uncomprehendable.

[JJ]

Sons to Glory,: “thanks for those verses and Greek references! Yes, it would seem where pneuma (spirit) is pertaining to divinity the article "the" is used in front of it. The times it is not used would seem to indicate our human spirit (as Romans 8:9-10 clearly shows).

1st Corinthians 3:16 says, “Do you not know your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?” I remember being in a Romans training where Lee was talking about this passage in Romans 8:9-11 (edited from Greek - see below)”

I wish Bible translators capitalized Spirit when it was capitalized in the Greek manuscripts and didn’t add The, of, etc... but maybe there are legitimate translation reasons because English is not Greek. I wish I knew. Romans 8 mostly uses spirit, but most translators translate Spirit most of the time and are inconsistent between translations throwing us into more unclarity.

I also thought it interesting that literal translations of two of the verses say “Spirit Christ” and “Spirit Jesus Christ” but translators add “of” between Spirit and Christ as well as Spirit and Jesus respectively. There is also a verse that says Lord Spirit. Maybe someone with Greek manuscript and Greek expertise can tell us if there are good reasons for these or if they are wrong to do this.

[JJ]

Challenging Witness Lee’s Annointing Oil Explanation

Life Study of Exodus Chapter 159 Section 2
Lee quotes Andrew Murray’s the Spirit of Christ (fifth chapter) and says

“The term ‘Holy Spirit’ was not used in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit is first mentioned in the New Testament when Christ was conceived.”

Fact check:

Isaiah 63:10-11 https://biblehub.com/isaiah/63-10.htm

Psalms 51:11 https://biblehub.com/psalms/51-11.htm

Hebrews 9:8 https://biblehub.com/hebrews/9-8.htm

2 Peter 1:21 https://biblehub.com/2_peter/1-21.htm

Luke 1:15 https://biblehub.com/luke/1-15.htm

Luke 1:41 https://biblehub.com/luke/1-15.htm

Truth: not only is the term Holy Spirit used in the Old Testament, writers of the New Testament tell us the Holy Spirit was involved in its writing, the children of Israel rebelled against the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was involved in John the Baptist’s birth too.

Note this verse too which suggests the Spirit of Christ or even Spirit Christ was in the Old Testament prophets as they spoke of Christ’s sufferings and glories afterward


https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-11.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/1-11.htm

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

Right, there are many other verses to look at (I have links below to the Greek inter linear of them because it shows whether the article The or a are really there and whether spirit is capitalized or not). When I read them all together it seems that there is something mysterious about how Christ is in us and The Spirit is too.

Galatians 4:6

https://biblehub.com/blb/galatians/4.htm

2 Corinthians 3:17

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

2 Corinthians 3:18

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-18.htm

Acts 16:7

https://biblehub.com/text/acts/16-7.htm

Philippians 1:19

https://biblehub.com/text/philippians/1-19.htm

Romans 8:9


https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-9.htm


Romans 8:10

https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-10.htm

Colossians 1:27


https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-27.htm

More verses I missed on this topic:

2 Corinthians 3:6

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-6.htm

John 6:63

https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-63.htm

John 20:22


https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-22.htm

Regarding that verse https://biblehub.com/greek/1720.htm

[Sons to Glory!]

Good citations! So was Lee trying to say that the HS wasn't present until after Christ's resurrection? The verses cited from the OT don't appear to have a definite article (the) in front of "Holy Spirit" as is present in the NT. Could these verses in the OT be more of a description rather than a specific name?

In looking at the nature of God, spirit is a key description (along with love & light). And we have spirit used for a number of divine "entities" (that is perhaps not the best word to use) including:

Spirit of God
Spirit of Christ
Spirit of Jesus Christ
Spirit of His Son
The Spirit
The Holy Spirit
A life-giving spirit
Seven spirits of God

Concerning Romans 8:9-11, to my knowledge no other passage portrays as wide array of references about who is in us, like it does. What are your thoughts on that passage?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Good citations! So was Lee trying to say that the HS wasn't present until after Christ's resurrection? The verses cited from the OT don't appear to have a definite article (the) in front of "Holy Spirit" as is present in the NT. Could these verses in the OT be more of a description rather than a specific name?

In looking at the nature of God, spirit is a key description (along with love & light). And we have spirit used for a number of divine "entities" (that is perhaps not the best word to use) including:

Spirit of God
Spirit of Christ
Spirit of Jesus Christ
Spirit of His Son
The Spirit
The Holy Spirit
A life-giving spirit
Seven spirits of God

Concerning Romans 8:9-11, to my knowledge no other passage portrays as wide array of references about who is in us, like it does. What are your thoughts on that passage?

I'd really like to have input from some trained well in Koine Greek. I took one short course, and that certainly doesn't qualify me to draw a conclusion.

No recall Lee said the Holy Spirit wasn't around until Christ's incarnation. And, he said the Holy Spirit is what was typified by the olive oil in the annointing oil described in Exodus to which were added the other ingredients (one of the basis for his claim that God was processed and that Christ is now The Spirit). He claimed the incarnation of Jesus as the first step of God being processed. My point was he apparently didn't check a concordance to check if what he (admittedly) cribbed from Andrew Murray was right or not. The shame is I didn't check either but assumed he was right. You know the saying: to assume is to make a donkey out of me and you. What a bunch of donkeys we all were to listen to this guy for so long! No more! Especially with the power of tools like Bible Hub at my finger tips!

Here is another verse to add to the mix. John 4:24 https://biblehub.com/text/john/4-24.htm

And you brought up the seven Spirits who are before God's throne in Revelation https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-4.htm That has a capital in the Greek.

I said before something mysterious is going on, and my thoughts are still along those lines. Maybe the point is to know that both God's Spirit and our spirit are involved in spiritual matters (how profound ) The more one tries to explain things the more one digs a hole for oneself on this topic.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually the resurrection, and most specifically, our belief in it, are one of the keys to the Gospel, at least to the apostle Paul it was. Here's some verses from 1st Corinthians 15, a chapter we should all be very familiar with:
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, (vrs 3,4 -emphasis mine)

Unfortunately for the followers of Witness Lee, he pretty much ignored the beginning of this wonderful chapter (considering it "the low gospel") and instead chose to over-emphasis the latter part, and in the process completely misinterpreted what the apostle Paul was teaching. The entire chapter is speaking of resurrection, with the bodily resurrection of our Lord being the catalyst, the initiation, the inauguration of the resurrection of those who would believe in him. Paul couldn't have been any clearer - - it wasn't about what Jesus Christ became, but rather what became of his physical body. Through the resurrection - the raising, life-giving power of the Holy Spirit - Christ gained "a spiritual body". "It is raised a spiritual body" (vr 44) If Lee is right about verse 45 saying that Jesus Christ became the Holy Spirit, then it would follow that all the believers will become life-giving S(s)pirits at the resurrection. Thankfully, Lee's crazy teachings only have an influence on that tiny little sect down the street from Disneyland.
-

I copied this over from another thread as I think it fits in this conversation . . .

So WL taught that Christ became the HS after resurrection - and also that the HS didn't exist prior to that, right? I guess I didn't hear that from him, or realize I heard it. But that would make sense if he did indeed preach Modalism (or at least what I understad Modalism to be).