A Christian Seeking Answers

[Sons to Glory!]

Is Haneraaff still even on the radio? I haven't heard him here in the Phoenix area for some time. The call-in "answer" brother who I now hear frequently on local Christian radio is Steve Gregg (The Narrow Path), who is pretty doggone good and who I find much more palatable. Bro Steve seems to have a pretty in-depth knowledge of scripture and I agree with him about 95% of the time. (which makes him alright in my book! )

[Acolyte4236]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is Haneraaff still even on the radio? I haven't heard him here in the Phoenix area for some time. The call-in "answer" brother who I now hear frequently on local Christian radio is Steve Gregg (The Narrow Path), who is pretty doggone good and who I find much more palatable. Bro Steve seems to have a pretty in-depth knowledge of scripture and I agree with him about 95% of the time. (which makes him alright in my book! )

Yes, he has a handful of radio stations left. As to Steve Gregg, I have no idea what his qualifications could be. Honestly, if you read good books, then you don't need such persons.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

Yes, he has a handful of radio stations left. As to Steve Gregg, I have no idea what his qualifications could be. Honestly, if you read good books, then you don't need such persons.

IMHO - someone with a living relationship with the Lord who also knows how to rightly divide the word, far outweighs someone with a degree! If they have both, then that's great.

[Acolyte4236]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

IMHO - someone with a living relationship with the Lord who also knows how to rightly divide the word, far outweighs someone with a degree! If they have both, then that's great.

Well the former is rather subjective. Second, holiness doesn't make someone knowledgeable. Mary was holy and yet she made mistakes when it came to knowing things. In the realm of knowledge, demonstration is king. Training puts one in a position to provide reliable demonstrations.

[Acolyte4236]

Put the matter this way. The reason why have silly sects like the LC is because people put way too much stock in subjective appeals rather than what someone could in fact demonstrate through clear reasoning whether that be principled arguments or historical arguments.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

Well the former is rather subjective. Second, holiness doesn't make someone knowledgeable. Mary was holy and yet she made mistakes when it came to knowing things. In the realm of knowledge, demonstration is king. Training puts one in a position to provide reliable demonstrations.

The Pharisees were quite knowledgeable about scripture, but not knowing the Author very well caused them to err significantly.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The Pharisees were quite knowledgeable about scripture, but not knowing the Author very well caused them to err significantly.

If my memory serves me, Jesus was on record saying, "You err, not knowing scripture." Not, "You err, knowing scripture but not subjectively knowing the Author of scripture."

The truth is that people have such feeble and faint knowledge of scripture that they are easy prey for charlatans and con-men like Hanegraaf and Lee, who also don't know scripture but can make a living pretending they do. In Hank's case, a nice living - I've seen the numbers.

Here's an interesting question - how many hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of hours of free labour did Witness Lee get, all to prop up his self-publishing business? As crass and money-grubbing as HH appears, in reality he has nothing on WL, whose minions feted HH out of the petty cash box.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

If my memory serves me, Jesus was on record saying, "You err, not knowing scripture." Not, "You err, knowing scripture but not subjectively knowing the Author of scripture."

The truth is that people have such feeble and faint knowledge of scripture that they are easy prey for charlatans and con-men like Hanegraaf and Lee, who also don't know scripture but can make a living pretending they do. In Hank's case, a nice living - I've seen the numbers.

Yes, but don't you think that's the implication? He said many times that they didn't really know God. And how about this - "You search the scriptures but you will not come to Me?"

[Acolyte4236]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The Pharisees were quite knowledgeable about scripture, but not knowing the Author very well caused them to err significantly.

Well, I never said that knowledge was a sufficient condition for being correct. My point was that it helps to weed out all kinds of mistakes, not that it weeds out every kind of mistake. this is why your example doesn't touch my point, which was if people would put more stock in things that could be demonstrated rather than subjective claims of the Spirit doing this or that, we would not have the LC and other sects.

Act 17:2

And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

1Ti 4:16

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

My point was that knowledge helps to weed out all kinds of mistakes, not that it weeds out every kind of mistake. This is why your example doesn't touch my point, which was if people would put more stock in things that could be demonstrated rather than subjective claims of the Spirit doing this or that, we would not have the LC and other sects.

I was immersed in the LC for years, and under the thrall of their thinking. But I had several conversations on the way out (not realising they were 'exit interviews' at the time) which illuminated what I was dealing with.

You see, I'd recently begun "enjoying God" outside of the LSM literature. I'd actually been in experientially immersed scripture apart from what they called the "interpreted word" of Witness Lee's commentaries. I'd sensed Jesus' Holy Spirit there, and was now sharing this new enjoyment in a meeting. ("He's new and fresh, available and near" went the LC song) As I shared, the group leader's face became grim, and he silently looked ahead. The other ones froze, paralyzed. I didn't realise at the time but I'd strayed off ministry ground.

I thought the whole affair odd at the time, even strikingly so, but it wasn't until years later that I began to appreciate to what extent that scripture in the LC was merely used to support ministry doctrines. There were a number of 'special verses' in the LC, of which most readers here will be familiar. These "prove" the LC themes. Then the mass of scripture is covered, in order to be lined up. And whatever scripture couldn't be lined up got dismissed as "fallen" and so forth. (Which portion of scripture was a lot larger than most appreciated)

And underneath the doctrine were a few immutable themes:

1. Don't ask questions
2. Do what you are told
3. Even when leadership is wrong, they are right.
4. Etc

Scripture in this case was merely a prop. Waved when useful, ignored or even rejected when not. So, for example, "oneness" in LC parlance actually meant, Obey leadership. Being "in spirit" meant repetitively shouting verses, footnotes, song stanzas, outline bullet points. And so forth. This forum exists because the "real LC" needed to be teased out of its entanglement with scripture.

Back to Acolyte4236 point above. Knowledge of scripture in and of itself doesn't guarantee success in the Christian journey. But it affords a kind of protection, or defense, against shysters like Lee and Hanegraaf, who'd drag us off. And that's a good thing. The journey continues.