Questions and Concerns for Current and Former LC Members

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Now, what does this have to do with Watchman Nee? He stressed the "inner life" from his sources. But really there's only one inner life that matters, the one Jesus Christ had with his Father in heaven. The rest of us, we come and go. Hopefully as we age it's more of the first and less of the second, but what do we trust? Our experiences, or those of Jesus Christ? Watchman Nee stressed our own.

Let discuss this (bolded). I don't know that this is an accurate assessment of the New Covenant.

[MikhailianInception]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Let discuss this (bolded). I don't know that this is an accurate assessment of the New Covenant.

Hi, Sons to Glory,

Thank you for your response here on this thread. I would love to know from you what would be an accurate assessment of the New Covenant? Are you a part of the Lord's Recovery movement, or are you outside of it? What has your experience been like, brother?

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- M.L.

[Nell]

My motive is not to slander anyone (in this movement or outside of it), but I have been confused about this.

I would like to give a quick response to this statement from your OP regarding “slander” and contrast it to “truth.”

Those of us who tell the truth regarding the Local Church are often accused of slander because of the LC mantra “don’t say anything negative.” This should likely be the first question/concern to be addressed upon leaving the LC or even discussing it openly and in public.

The truth is absolute...negative or positive and should never be confused with “slander”.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would like to give a quick response to this statement from your OP regarding “slander” and contrast it to “truth.”

Those of us who tell the truth regarding the Local Church are often accused of slander because of the LC mantra “don’t say anything negative.” This should likely be the first question/concern to be addressed upon leaving the LC or even discussing it openly and in public.

The truth is absolute...negative or positive and should never be confused with “slander”.

Nell

If other Christians had followed LSM' definition of "slander," then no church history would have ever been written, and we would still be in the Dark Ages under Papal oppressions.

[Nell]

Here's another Question/Concern/truth current and former LC members would do well to address: What have you done?

Gen. 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What have you done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I did eat.

The truth is, we made a choice to follow Lee off the rails. Like Eve, “I was deceived.” This was my sin. I own it. I came to this realization several years after I left the LC.

I chose to ignore the warnings in my own conscience. I chose to ignore the warnings in the Bible. I chose to obey the LC leadership when I should have asked questions...regardless of the personal consequences. I chose not to ask questions, and I chose to obey the mantra "don't say anything negative."

I didn't really mean to ignore all the warning signs. I didn't realize that the red flags waving all over the place were actually the Lord God trying to get my attention. It wasn't my fault.

Really? Whose fault was it?

When God said to the woman "What have you done?" she didn't try to reason her way through the answer to God's question. She gave the simplest answer possible. She simply admitted that she was deceived. The cowardly man blamed her and blamed God himself. Seemingly without hesitation, she confessed that she had been deceived...by the serpent.

There are many reasons we can legitimately point to Lee as the deceiver and blame him. Blame the LC leadership. Blame all who led to our "downfall", often rightly so. However, does that make us any LESS deceived?

What about the "church kids"? What about those who were raised in the LC and find themselves tortured by what was foisted upon them by others beyond their control? Honestly, I don't know. Some of us made a choice to believe a lie and some of us were taught from childhood to believe a lie.

I don't know that the solution would be different for church kids than it would be for those of us who came to the LC as adults. I don't think it would be a mistake to confess and repent for being deceived as a child. The woman gave a simple answer which is likely the best possible answer.

Like the woman, I also was deceived by the serpent. I repented for my sin. I often pray even now, "Lord, please don't let me be deceived." I don't hold Lee and the LC responsible for what I did. This doesn't let them off the hook. Lee, et al, are in God's hands now...not mine.

“My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me.” This is my/our great need...to hear the Shepherd's voice and follow Him.

Nell

[JJ]

Nell: “we chose to follow Lee off the rails”

Interesting choice of words. My last few years in the LC the Holy Spirit kept telling me I was on a train headed the wrong direction and if I didn’t get off I would end up where it was headed and that wasn’t good. The words of a popular rock song I’d heard on the radio “I’m going off the rails on a crazy train” kept coming to me.

Normally I wouldn’t recommend Ozzy Ozbourne, but the words to his Crazy Train song are strangely applicable to TLR https://genius.com/Ozzy-osbourne-crazy-train-lyrics

Sorry for the diversion

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Normally I wouldn’t recommend Ozzy Ozbourne, but the words to his Crazy Train song are strangely applicable to TLR https://genius.com/Ozzy-osbourne-crazy-train-lyrics

Wow, almost qualifies as an ex-LC-member theme song!

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's another Question/Concern/truth current and former LC members would do well to address: What have you done?

The truth is, we made a choice to follow Lee off the rails. Like Eve, “I was deceived.” This was my sin. I own it. I came to this realization several years after I left the LC.

I chose to ignore the warnings in my own conscience. I chose to ignore the warnings in the Bible. I chose to obey the LC leadership when I should have asked questions...regardless of the personal consequences. I chose not to ask questions, and I chose to obey the mantra "don't say anything negative."

I didn't really mean to ignore all the warning signs. I didn't realize that the red flags waving all over the place were actually the Lord God trying to get my attention. It wasn't my fault.

There are many reasons we can legitimately point to Lee as the deceiver and blame him. Blame the LC leadership. Blame all who led to our "downfall", often rightly so. However, does that make us any LESS deceived?

I don't know that the solution would be different for church kids than it would be for those of us who came to the LC as adults. I don't think it would be a mistake to confess and repent for being deceived as a child. The woman gave a simple answer which is likely the best possible answer.

Like the woman, I also was deceived by the serpent. I repented for my sin. I often pray even now, "Lord, please don't let me be deceived." I don't hold Lee and the LC responsible for what I did. This doesn't let them off the hook. Lee, et al, are in God's hands now...not mine.

“My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me.” This is my/our great need...to hear the Shepherd's voice and follow Him.

Nell

Dear Nell,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying here. We are calling the leadership of the LSM to sober acknowledgement, humility and repentance, yet that is the starting point for every human heart. None of us is exempt. And it is the very grace of God offering us a way forwards through repentance. We get everything back that was lost through the fall through it. God's promises to us all flow on the back of genuine repentance. It is a wonderful thing that our God loves to forgive.

We can be scrambling at the opportunity to clear up our lives this way, and release His wonderful grace over our lives.

Even if we were brainwashed as children, we are still sinners by nature, owning that means willingness to have a repentant heart. The alternative is fueling our sense of being a victim which does not lead us to trust Jesus.

Just to respond to JJ's testifying about the Ozzy Osborne song on the radio.... I've had similar experiences. Just this year I was very scared about something and as I was leaving a prayer meeting I felt God say to me 'everything is going to be alright' then I went to buy some groceries on my way home and the song playing in the supermarket was Bob Marley 'don't worry about a thing, every little thing is gonna be alright'. That is one of 2 examples... God can use many ways to speak to us and reinforce His words to us! Expect the unexpected!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

What about the "church kids"? What about those who were raised in the LC and find themselves tortured by what was foisted upon them by others beyond their control? Honestly, I don't know. Some of us made a choice to believe a lie and some of us were taught from childhood to believe a lie.

I don't know that the solution would be different for church kids than it would be for those of us who came to the LC as adults. I don't think it would be a mistake to confess and repent for being deceived as a child. The woman gave a simple answer which is likely the best possible answer.

Like the woman, I also was deceived by the serpent. I repented for my sin. I often pray even now, "Lord, please don't let me be deceived." I don't hold Lee and the LC responsible for what I did. This doesn't let them off the hook. Lee, et al, are in God's hands now...not mine.

Originally Posted by Curious

Dear Nell,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying here. ......

Even if we were brainwashed as children, we are still sinners by nature, owning that means willingness to have a repentant heart. The alternative is fueling our sense of being a victim which does not lead us to trust Jesus.

As a church kid myself, I am not sure I agree here. Adam was told explicitly what not to do, and Eve, although not told directly according to the record in Genesis, had full knowledge of what was not allowed, even going so far as to add prohibition on top of prohibition ("not even to touch it"). They both knew what was right and what was wrong. Given that backdrop, Eve was still deceived and Adam still chose to disobey.

Church kids, however, are taught skewed "rights and wrongs". They don't have the external grounding of truth to which they can compare what they are in. The lies are taught to them as the truth. The lies are even represented as coming from God. Church kids are deceived, yes, but not willfully any way you cut it. Many of them spend their childhood years trying to understand why what is spoken doesn't match up with their surroundings, oftentimes while not even realizing that that's what's going on (in other words, they just know "something's off", but they don't know that there is this mis-match), and have a traumatized mind because of it.

It's spiritual abuse, and in some senses it's also mental abuse because the hypocrisy and double-speak ends up creating an environment where they are being told one thing while living another and yet no one will acknowledge it's happening.

To find out you've been deceived in this way for your whole life is a penetrating shock to the system, the shock waves of which reverberate for a long, long time. If church kids need to repent for being spiritually abused, I just can't get on board with that.

(I know you're not saying church kids must/need/have to repent, rather you seem to be saying, essentially "there's no harm in repenting", but as a church kid whose guilt-meter is also screwed up by being made to feel bad for doing normal human things (having friends, hobbies, smiling, laughing, enjoying music, etc), I'm also very sensitive to the implication that I should repent for something I in no way need to repent for.)

[MikhailianInception]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would like to give a quick response to this statement from your OP regarding “slander” and contrast it to “truth.”

Those of us who tell the truth regarding the Local Church are often accused of slander because of the LC mantra “don’t say anything negative.” This should likely be the first question/concern to be addressed upon leaving the LC or even discussing it openly and in public.

The truth is absolute...negative or positive and should never be confused with “slander”.

Nell

Hey Nell,

Thank you for your concern. I think what I was trying to convey was the fact that I know there are people on both sides on this issue. I genuinely don't have the heart to hurt anyone in this discussion. There are human beings involved, and even if I am telling the truth or giving my observations, I do not want my words to come from a bad place. Which is why I am asking both sides what they feel about the Lord's Recovery. I want to speak the truth in love at the end of the day and have no malicious intent. I must admit that there were certain things I considered good that I took away from the Lord's Recovery in terms of being helpful to my spiritual growth. Of course, the locality issue is something I avoid, and I have felt that the Holy Spirit wants me to steer clear from this movement. As much as I have been away from the Lord's Recovery for many years (even though when I was involved it was only for a few months), I know there are some precious people in that movement as well. My heart breaks for them. I also need to be careful with my words, lest I cause anyone to stumble. And the Lord Jesus did say that I will give an account for every word that has been spoken during my time on earth. Therefore, I must be aware of my own actions when engaging others, and to hopefully come from a place of understanding and grace.

May the Lord bless you and keep you, Nell. And a Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- M.L.

[MikhailianInception]

Originally Posted by MikhailianInception

Of course, the locality issue is something I avoid, and I have felt that the Holy Spirit wants me to steer clear from this movement. As much as I have been away from the Lord's Recovery for many years (even though when I was involved it was only for a few months), I know there are some precious people in that movement as well. My heart breaks for them. I also need to be careful with my words, lest I cause anyone to stumble. And the Lord Jesus did say that I will give an account for every word that has been spoken during my time on earth. Therefore, I must be aware of my own actions when engaging others, and to hopefully come from a place of understanding and grace.

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- M.L.

Correction: Actually I wasn't too involved as much as I was observing. I didn't serve there in any capacity or involve myself in their ministry. I just participated in their praying, praising, Bible study, and song.

[MikhailianInception]

Hey friends,

I had spoken to my pastor about this recently on Christmas Day. He basically told me the history of the Chinese Church. When a lot of the foreign missionaries were kicked out of China, there was a lack of training in theology and practice. Therefore, even though the Holy Spirit moved in their midst, certain strange practices were developed within different churches in China. Now, of course, that does not make some of those churches heretical, since I believe that God is gracious and would understand. In other words, there are true Christians in these churches, but they were on their own. Many of the pastors and Christians in China didn't know who to go to, or even who to trust because of the Communists in power. There could be spies posing as Christians.

With regards to the Local Church/Lord's Recovery movement, even though the CRI came out in defense of it, my pastor still believes it's a cult because he feels that a church that calls itself the only true church vs. everyone else basically suggests that everyone else is going to hell. Because to suggest that the Body at large has committed apostasy/spiritual fornication equals damnation. Basically my pastor finds that arrogant. He said it is impossible to simply gather every Christian into One City Church. Church in San Diego, Church in New York, Church in Washington D.C., Church in Calgary, Church in Toronto, Church in London, etc. You can't do that because of the population size within a city. He even said that in the Early Church, believers gathered in multiple places within one city. This was especially true when Christians were undergoing heavy persecution. They were scattered all over the place. Therefore, though the LC may have good intentions to pursue unity through Locality, it's based on poor scholarship.

Does anyone else on this website have any other thoughts on this? I would love to hear from you all!

- M.L.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by MikhailianInception

With regards to the Local Church/Lord's Recovery movement, even though the CRI came out in defense of it, my pastor still believes it's a cult because he feels that a church that calls itself the only true church vs. everyone else basically suggests that everyone else is going to hell. Because to suggest that the Body at large has committed apostasy/spiritual fornication equals damnation. Basically my pastor finds that arrogant. He said it is impossible to simply gather every Christian into One City Church. Church in San Diego, Church in New York, Church in Washington D.C., Church in Calgary, Church in Toronto, Church in London, etc. You can't do that because of the population size within a city. He even said that in the Early Church, believers gathered in multiple places within one city.

I think he is somewhat right, but also sets up some possible strawmen in his response. I don't know that the LC thinks all other believers are "going to hell" for eternity. However, they may think others will spend a thousand years in outer darkness or something like that. He is right in that the LC's position is quite arrogant. And the fact that all believers can't gather together in one place is something of a strawman. This is because the idea was that believers in any locality wouldn't take any other names, thereby artificially dividing themselves from each other, due to being called by various denominational names. The LC would be fine if - due to large numbers - there were hundreds of groups in a particular city . . . just so they were all under one name - namely the LC in that city. (and the LC would say that this wasn't actually a name, but rather a description of the saints in that locality)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by MikhailianInception

Hi, Sons to Glory,

Thank you for your response here on this thread. I would love to know from you what would be an accurate assessment of the New Covenant? Are you a part of the Lord's Recovery movement, or are you outside of it? What has your experience been like, brother?

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- M.L.

You bet! I was miracuolously brought across country to land in the LC in Berkeley back in 74. In the 80s we (wife & family) were involved in the LCs in southern Ohio. Things got real "sideways" in the LC and we stopped meeting with them and moved to the dessert of California in 1988. After the Lord "dried me out" for about 10 years, I was led to gather with saints in Scottsdale, AZ, where I have been since.

The ones in Scottsdale had been part of the LC in the NW until many left the LC (they were basically ostracized) in the mid-80s. A large number were led of the Lord to move to Scottsdale. The Scottsdale church has no formal affiliation with the LC or LSM, although various ones still have family members in it. We enjoy active fellowship with all believers around us, and many participate in other gatherings throughout the week. The meetings here are open and participative, much like the LC - at least how the LC used to be. Here, anyone is welcome to share anything they are seeing in the word or their experience of Christ (no format or guidelines to source our sharing in any person's work). I have enjoyed more of Christ, and seen more of God's true purpose in love here in the last 20 years, than ever before.

As to the new covenant, I think it could pretty much be summed-up in Colossians 1:27, "Christ in you, the hope of glory!" And Jeremiah 31:33, "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts." And Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

Regarding what you said regarding our relationship with our Father, I don't disagree (and maybe I misunderstood). I would just say that now Christ is our relationship with the Father.