Important Announcement regarding the Alternative Views Subforum

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hate speech.

I saw a news clip that some guy got 15 years for burning a gay flag, but burning the American flag is a "constitutional right" protected by the 1st Amendment.

Such is hate speech hypocrisy and demagoguery.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I saw a news clip that some guy got 15 years for burning a gay flag, but burning the American flag is a "constitutional right" protected by the 1st Amendment.

Such is hate speech hypocrisy and demagoguery.

Even though there may be doubts, is it possible for liberals to be saved? And what about conservatives - could even they possibly be saved?

Of course those are absurd questions, but as Rush used to say (I don't know if he still says it, as I rarely listen to him any more), "Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Even though there may be doubts, is it possible for liberals to be saved? And what about conservatives - could even they possibly be saved?

Of course those are absurd questions, but as Rush used to say (I don't know if he still says it, as I rarely listen to him any more), "Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd."

The topic here is politics or culture wars, not salvation. But I understand that you are following Rush's pattern and posting absudities.

Folks use Trump's flaws to condemn him, but it's like using General Eisenhower's or General Marshall's flaws to condemn them. There is a battle of ideas in the US and the world that has been raging for a century. You could partly describe it as left v right, socialism v capitalism, globalism v nationalism, atheism v beliefs, totalitarianism v liberty, progressivism v conservatism, etc. Despite Trump's many flaws, he does fight for what is right. The alternative is frightening. The US still leads some of the world. If the US collapses under the old illusions of socialism, global lawlessness will consume it.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Cthe topic here is politics or culture wars, not salvation. But I understand that you are following Rush's pattern and posting absudities.

Folks use Trump's flaws to condemn him, but it's like using General Eisenhower's or General Marshall's flaws to condemn them. There is a battle of ideas in the US and the world that has been raging for a century. You could partly describe it as left v right, socialism v capitalism, globalism v nationalism, atheism v beliefs, totalitarianism v liberty, progressivism v conservatism, etc. Despite Trump's many flaws, he does fight for what is right. The alternative is frightening. The US still leads some of the world. If the US collapses under the old illusions of socialism, global lawlessness will consume it.

Going back to my "Hate speech" comment, the bottom line in all of this is "they" are just lost . . . so how should we expect them to act? (the question now is, does this apply to liberals or conservatives?)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Going back to my "Hate speech" comment, the bottom line in all of this is "they" are just lost . . . so how should we expect them to act? (the question now is, does this apply to liberals or conservatives?)

And the answer is, we are all lost if we are engaged in this kind of thinking. As long as we think of "us v them," no matter which side "we" are on, we are lost relative to our higher calling. We should expect less of anybody but ourselves. In other words, if I can't apply it to me, how do I apply it to anyone else?

Of course, this is the question for the Christian, no matter what side of the political spectrum they may lean toward. (And despite the insistence of some of our Evangelical leaders, God does not vote Republican. Or Democrat. Or anything.) For the rest, it is just a question of equitably applying the constitution.

[OBW]

I saw a news clip that some guy got 15 years for burning a gay flag, but burning the American flag is a "constitutional right" protected by the 1st Amendment.

I agree that the disparity is ridiculous. Neither should be punishable except to the extent that there is a problem with the fire itself.

But at the same time, firing up the tar and gathering the feathers is also a kind of hate speech.

As long as we don't actually use tar and feathers, it should be constitutionally protected.

But as Christians, even what is constitutionally protected is not the same as being righteous. Or as Paul would say "not expedient." If our guide for righteous living is the constitution, there is a lot of allowance for unrighteousness — even protection for it. The Bible (which I am being chastised for dismissing "inerrancy" of in the main forum) has a higher standard.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree that the disparity is ridiculous. Neither should be punishable except to the extent that there is a problem with the fire itself.

But at the same time, firing up the tar and gathering the feathers is also a kind of hate speech.

As long as we don't actually use tar and feathers, it should be constitutionally protected.

But as Christians, even what is constitutionally protected is not the same as being righteous. Or as Paul would say "not expedient." If our guide for righteous living is the constitution, there is a lot of allowance for unrighteousness — even protection for it. The Bible (which I am being chastised for dismissing "inerrancy" of in the main forum) has a higher standard.

Apparently my point was lost in the translation.

I did not mention this flag-burning case to provide license for Christians, rather to display how the laws of our land have become so biased in favor of activist minorities who owe their identity to the sins of Sodom.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apparently my point was lost in the translation.

I did not mention this flag-burning case to provide license for Christians, rather to display how the laws of our land have become so biased in favor of activist minorities who owe their identity to the sins of Sodom.

The laws of our land have changed such that they are less restrictive on otherwise private behavior. That this behavior is contrary to Christian morality and values is quite clear.

But even at that, in the NT the call is to tolerance concerning the actions of sinners while holding ourselves to a higher standard. I am not saying that we should drop our personal/Christian stand against certain sins, but that holding it up as a "must" standard for the world is beyond the scope of our calling. Not saying that we should never try to improve things even in the world. But at what cost? At the cost of leaving our "love" for neighbor in the closet while we beat them up rhetorically?

That is a little like demeaning all intelligence reports that don't fit your personal feelings, then trotting one out to justify a drone attack. Not saying either position is entirely wrong, but that the hypocrisy of cherry-picking the good v bad intelligence (or places to apply love) based on my personal feelings is entirely without merit and leaves every decision in question.

And leaves our Christian testimony in question, if not in shambles.

The problems are enormous in these political discussions.

Are the Democrats out to get Trump? It is hard to argue otherwise. But that does not make the issues that they found bogus or irrelevant.

Does Donald Trump lie almost constantly? The evidence seems to bear that out. But that doesn't mean that in any particular case he is simply lying ("because his lips are moving."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Does Donald Trump lie almost constantly? The evidence seems to bear that out.

Donald Trump has "lied" for almost 4 years that claims of him being a Russian asset were lies and fake news. Liberal "fact-checkers" faithfully counted every one of these denials as "lies."

Robert Muller had months and months with dozens of top prosecutors working with dozens and dozens more government FBI agents and unlimited resources ... and then concluded that there was not a single shred of evidence that A-N-Y American had colluded with the Russians.

Yet, still today, millions of Americans believe in their heart of hearts that Trump was and still is Putin's White House Puppet who interfered with the 2016 election.

Sounds like you might still be one of these "believers."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Donald Trump has "lied" for almost 4 years that claims of him being a Russian asset were lies and fake news. Liberal "fact-checkers" faithfully counted every one of these denials as "lies."

Robert Muller had months and months with dozens of top prosecutors working with dozens and dozens more government FBI agents and unlimited resources ... and then concluded that there was not a single shred of evidence that A-N-Y American had colluded with the Russians.

Yet, still today, millions of Americans believe in their heart of hearts that Trump was and still is Putin's White House Puppet who interfered with the 2016 election.

Sounds like you might still be one of these "believers."

Cherry-picking one topic on which you think Trump is not lying does not gloss over the constant repetition of conspiracy theories, including those originated by the Russian propaganda machine. And just constant false statements on a whole host of issues.

Look, I don't think Trump is actively some Russian asset. But he is apparently too stupid to realize when he is acting in their interest by repeating lies that they created (whether or not Trump realizes the source). He was happy to use US intelligence to order a drone strike, but ignores reams of paper full of US intelligence when he brown-noses Putin and simply declares Russia did not meddle in the 2016 US election. And ignores more of that intelligence (which he almost never reads anyway) by asserting that it was really Ukraine that was doing the meddling. Another lie which he has repeated so much that the mooing cows now believe it to be the truth. (I am assuming that you are not among that particular herd.)

And even when he makes a mistake — like the hurricane threatening Alabama — he can't admit he had some faulty information, but doubles-down and draws up a fake map to support his stupidity.

I know it is a dangerous position to take, but he is approaching the mythical "it's a lie because his lips are moving (or thumbs are typing)" level of distrust in anything he says. I desperately want to vote for a Republican. But as long as he is on the ticket, I am leaning toward a scorched-earth policy with regard to any politician who blindly supported him these 3 years. We survived 8 years of Obama. Maybe the Republican party can find an intelligent version of itself during 4 to 8 years wandering in the desert. It is becoming clear that the promised land that so many thought we were entering was really the entry hall for Hell. I'll take the Sinai peninsula over that any day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Cherry-picking one topic on which you think Trump is not lying does not gloss over the constant repetition of conspiracy theories, including those originated by the Russian propaganda machine. And just constant false statements on a whole host of issues.

One topic? Russian collusion was THE TOPIC!

Conspiracy theories? Like Trump's claim that he was being spied on? Have you not read anything about this beyond CNN? The Horowitz report?

On this matter Trump was completely right. The FBI was spying on him. Have you not read that it was Adm. Mike Rogers who tipped off Trump concerning the illegal spying? Trump immediately moved his campaign from Trump Tower to New Jersey. The media mocked him in unison over it. Trump was right, but was the media laughing stock for weeks. Meanwhile, the "Trump Lies" Geiger counter kept racking up the hits.

Sorry, OBW, but I thought you were better educated. Apparently you are still affected by TDS. Few have actually recovered from it.

Hey, since you still watch CNN, did you hear that they secretly gave an 8-figure cash payment to Nick Sandmann, the Covington HSer? Talk about "Crooked News Network."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

And even when he makes a mistake — like the hurricane threatening Alabama — he can't admit he had some faulty information, but doubles-down and draws up a fake map to support his stupidity.

The entire hurricane tracking community also thought that hurricane might hit Alabama. And you blame Trump for this, as if he lied and tried to deceive us, and now needs to repent?


If TDS has got you thinking like this, why are you not out condemning every meteorologist in the world? This is so crazy!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yet, still today, millions of Americans believe in their heart of hearts that Trump was and still is Putin's White House Puppet who interfered with the 2016 election.

Sounds like you might still be one of these "believers."

what is in an L? Liberal narrative I often cannot distinguish from LSM narrative. They're so much alike. Both very dismissive to contrarian thoughts. Liberal narrative rejects the contrarian views as being "Russian puppet" or "Russian assets" much like the LSM narrative would reject contrarian views as "opposers".
Now we have Democratic Presidential candidate taking a lawsuit against Hillary Clinton for her words calling Tulsi a "Russian asset". Shouldn't there be accountability?
Much like the LSM narrative, I see the liberal narrative as a lot of projecting. Accusing Trump what they're doing themselves. There was Russian collusion. There was Ukrainian collusion, there was British collusion, and there was Italian collusion, but it was not coming from Trump's campaign.
Just like in the LSM there was collusion to undermine brothers in the late 1980's. It wasn't the brothers that were eventually quarantined that were doing the colluding.
Facts and evidence trumps narrative. Much like in the late 80's turmoil and the Great Lakes turmoil, all I was hearing was narrative. No facts. No evidence. Just like the current Impeachment going on. House managers had presented a lot in narrative, but nothing in facts and evidence unless they're able to provide proof in their abilities to discern thoughts, intent, and motive.
A sort of substituting "feeling" for facts. As is the case in the LC.
Providing the "opposers" (meaning Trumps legal team) has the facts and evidence on their side, just take the L.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

what is in an L? Liberal narrative I often cannot distinguish from LSM narrative. They're so much alike. Both very dismissive to contrarian thoughts. Liberal narrative rejects the contrarian views as being "Russian puppet" or "Russian assets" much like the LSM narrative would reject contrarian views as "opposers".
Now we have Democratic Presidential candidate taking a lawsuit against Hillary Clinton for her words calling Tulsi a "Russian asset". Shouldn't there be accountability?
Much like the LSM narrative, I see the liberal narrative as a lot of projecting. Accusing Trump what they're doing themselves. There was Russian collusion. There was Ukrainian collusion, there was British collusion, and there was Italian collusion, but it was not coming from Trump's campaign.
Just like in the LSM there was collusion to undermine brothers in the late 1980's. It wasn't the brothers that were eventually quarantined that were doing the colluding.
Facts and evidence trumps narrative. Much like in the late 80's turmoil and the Great Lakes turmoil, all I was hearing was narrative. No facts. No evidence. Just like the current Impeachment going on. House managers had presented a lot in narrative, but nothing in facts and evidence unless they're able to provide proof in their abilities to discern thoughts, intent, and motive.
A sort of substituting "feeling" for facts. As is the case in the LC.
Providing the "opposers" (meaning Trumps legal team) has the facts and evidence on their side, just take the L.

Great connections here Terry.

LSM has become every bit a political organization as the Democratic Party. Same tactics, same dissembling, same accusing and excusing, projecting their own unrighteous actions upon their enemies. (Romans 2 spells some of this out.) Compare what LSM did to the Casteels to the Media's mischaracterizations of the Covington Catholic boys.

The Whistler Kangaroo Court impeachment trial of TC mirrored Schiff's secret impeachment inquiry in the House SCIF. The hoax perpetrated on the Recovery about so-called "rebellions" duplicates the so-called "Russian collusion." The claims that ex-members have been poisoned by "internet lies," corresponds to Hilary's on going "vast right wing" conspiracy by Trump's many "deplorables."

These days the casual reader might ask "who is lying here." Let me point something out. Who is more apt to lie? The guy in the White House under unbelievable scrutiny 24/7/52, or a guy like VP Joe Biden who got a free pass from every media outlet for decades, except for Fox?