Curious!

[Curious]

Originally Posted by aron

I think this is one of the more valuable essays on the whole forum. Usually those who realise that the LC message departs from the Christian gospel and reject it, remain 'outsiders' and go off. They don't tell what was wrong, but simply leave. They sense that something isn't right and run away - "My sheep know my voice".

Those who do write about the experience often do so after a long process of indoctrination, years of 24/7 immersion, the subsequent trauma of leaving/separation, and the long unpacking afterward. So the freshness of the moment of getting sucked in is often lost, with its nuances and dynamics. It's often done with subtlety else it wouldn't catch so many unawares. As Curious says, It's a shock to see how deeply (and quickly) they get into your head.

This post reveals something of that process in real time, with the attraction and enjoyment on the one hand, and the concomitant hardening toward fellow members of the Christian faith on the other. The process is insidious and one usually doesn't appreciate it sufficiently, and objectively analyse it, and in a whirl of emotions gets 'caught' in the 'LC sheep pen'. In the LC it's all about 'enjoyment' until one day the 'enjoyment' is gone, and the minister blames you because you weren't rabid enough for the cause.

This poster was able to step back and see the LC gambit for what it is: it's not a ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5) but a ministry of estrangement (judgment, hostility, antagonism). That hardening towards 'others' allows LC members to be manipulated and controlled by the handlers: "If you don't do what we say, the Boogeyman will get you." One often fails to appreciate this sufficiently at the outset, but only when it's too late, when they're already 'in', at the endgame. They're now in The Church and can't go back to Mystery Babylon. The walls are up and the doors are locked.

Typically the 'outsiders' walk away silently, and the 'insiders' suffer silently. This post is an example of the kind of opening to dialogue that can release many.

Responding to aron’s post I’m thinking to relate some more incidents from my experiences fellowshipping with a group from the LC….

At first encounter, I looked them up on the internet. The lovely CRC article came up, reassuring me of their earlier mistake in misjudging the LC and what a great bunch of Christians they are, albeit with some Chinese cultural quirks. I relaxed internally and trusted this article.

As I then proceeded to accept their invitation to meet regularly, for a shared meal and study, the story of the Exodus was presented. They didn’t explain the life-study notes s such, but we based our study on them, not the bible directly.

I did pick up a feeling that they were hinting that I needed to leave my regular church and join them as the outworking of ‘exodus’ in my life. But it was subtle and there was nothing tangeable, just a feeling hanging in the air. I noticed this but not in a concerned way. I knew when my own ‘exodus’ had been and they weren’t about to be able to rewrite that for me so I wasn’t concerned.

During the study, we looked at the manna. I really liked the analogies of the manna, its characteristics and how they can be likened to God’s character. After covering them all we had some discussion. My hosts seemed very satisfied with some criticism about Pentecostals (from the text on the ‘smallness’ of the manna), and they hooked on to the idea of ‘where are they (the Pentecostals) now?’ they repeated this idea amongst themselves several times. As though Pentecostals are all lost and gone nowadays. I thought to myself, ‘how would you know where they are? If you didn’t know any Pentecostals before now, how would you know where they are today?’ it was a doubt-casting commentary without any substance, I thought. When it came my turn to speak, I talked about how it was like bdellium, transparent, with nothing to hide. That had impressed me favourably. Now as I Look back on that study, there is a lot more criticism of Christianity there. I can’t remember that being in our notes in these meetings, oddly.

Next study topic: they asked me what I wished to study, offering me the choice of direction, it would seem. I said David or the psalms. They decided to start at the beginning of the story of David which starts with the story of Samuel. Giving me the reason it’s good to be thorough and start at the beginning of the book. So we looked at the life-study of Eli and Samuel. They taught that Samuel’s role marked the shift from the first system of worship through the tribe of Levi, to the kingship system, that the Levitical system was ‘degraded and apostate’ through Eli and his sons, and God was changing it. (Actually, the Levitical system was not abandoned by having kings, it continued on so that was not true, what they taught). Anyway, I got the clear impression again that they felt WN and WL were somehow restarting things like Samuel, abandoning a failed system, and regular Christianity was that system today that God has abandoned. I just felt it again. But they were all still friendly and I had not experienced a Christian group before that rejects Christianity outside of themselves so I was not alarmed yet.

It turns out that they weren’t intending to get to the story of David and the psalms, as they dropped that area after we finished with Eli and his sons, and did something else completely.

Now I’m going to jump to the end of my time with them. When it became clear that I had decided to detach from them, there was a short period of lowering the boom and going for the dressing down of my character in ways completely uncalled for. As I had already predicted this would happen next, (alerted by my reading of ‘The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse’), I confused this effort by seeming to not even notice they were meaning this in a critical way, like it had gone right over my head. ( I was especially non-volatile as I was very concerned for the mental stability of a member who demonstrated very unstable behavior.)

Then I watched the following. One of them picked up their phone, and as a deliberate visual enactment, pretended to be looking something up and distracted by it. Then they mentioned a caution about looking things up on the internet. This was a perfectly clear example of the seeking to influence one’s behaviour by indirect but very directional means. This person was, in fact, far more involved in using their phone and the internet than I was, so I felt puzzled by it….until I found this site some months later.

I spent my research time looking up ‘Witness Lee on… (such and such)’ for a long time and developed my impressions of what is distorted about the ministry from that plus John Meyers book. Foolishly I thought ‘Local Church Discussions’ might be there to promote the LC so I didn’t take any notice of it for a while. Only I should’ve realised that the title is an oxy-moron, a contradiction in terms in itself, the Local Church itself doesn’t actually DO discussions, they just tell you how it is and advise you to submit!! (Therefore the logic is, ‘LC discussions’ MUST be a commentary that exists outside of the organisation itself!..I got that in the end!)

That is part of my experience. I hope it may be interesting and helpful to others to read. I may tell more of that journey if it seems relevant to others.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Curious

I spent my research time looking up ‘Witness Lee on… (such and such)’ for a long time and developed my impressions of what is distorted about the ministry from that plus John Meyers book. Foolishly I thought ‘Local Church Discussions’ might be there to promote the LC so I didn’t take any notice of it for a while. Only I should’ve realised that the title is an oxy-moron, a contradiction in terms in itself, the Local Church itself doesn’t actually DO discussions, they just tell you how it is and advise you to submit!! (Therefore the logic is, ‘LC discussions’ MUST be a commentary that exists outside of the organisation itself!..I got that in the end!)

That is part of my experience. I hope it may be interesting and helpful to others to read. I may tell more of that journey if it seems relevant to others.

As I read this, I was struck by what a system of error the LC has become. This is such a remarkable contrast to me, that is, contrasting my time there in the early 70s with what you wrote. Back then, the fresh and living experiences of Christ, and genuine fellowship there, were bountiful (albeit, admittedly quickly fading)! It is obvious to me, and so many others on here, that the LC has now turned WL and his teachings into a bona fide cult figure, which has totally replaced Christ and the Anointing!

The seeds of this were certainly back there in the 70s . . . And since all the Life Studies and footnotes are in place, the LCers now just focus on those and miss the Spirit. Too sad.

The leaven has expanded the whole loaf into something totally off the mark of Christ's headship and the inner Anointing.

[Curious]

Back then, the fresh and living experiences of Christ, and genuine fellowship there, were bountiful (albeit, admittedly quickly fading)! It is obvious to me, and so many others on here, that the LC has now turned WL and his teachings into a bona fide cult figure, which has totally replaced Christ and the Anointing!

In writing of my own experience and observation, I cannot tell if I witnessed what is widespread or only a particular situation. So responses on the forum help fill in the picture further. Tho’ the longer I observed the more I assessed the problem being systemic, with my final conclusion being; there was nothing I could do to help, they weren’t about to listen to me anyway.

To StG
What I love about your responding comment is that you had wonderful experiences of both Christ and brotherly love in the early days. It is wonderful you had that, so many people in the world have not been blessed in such a way. It never leaves a person, the imprint of God, and it is delightful to learn of such a time in a person’s life, regardless of any other factors.

Also, to balance my last post, I said that in SRA they deliberately and systematically break a person up and fragment their personalities…. in the LC cognitive dissonance is merely an unintended side-effect of funny theology and harmful practise, but not at all intentional. There is always much to be grateful for and blessing to be found in each of our journeys of life, and I don’t want to be critical in a narrow way.

Now I have made a whole list of dysfunctional behaviours I observed in LC people, as I became more and more tuned in to what was going on around me. As listed on another post, they are: Judgementalism, relationship breakdowns, dramas, blame shifting, pretence, and I will add, anger to that list, both suppressed and explosive. I want to say, this behaviour sets in when people are in an environment that is emotionally unsafe. Everyone is protecting themselves, running for cover, passing the buck. No-one wants to be the fall-guy. Those who are cleverest at these tactics become the most successful within the social strata, but through means of deception and manipulation. When people are trapped within such a closed system, that’s all the reality a person knows.

So I’m not going to just leave it there. I want to not just talk about a problem without pointing towards help with the solution. Knowing people have been taught not to read other Christian authors, and that the gaps in LC teaching and practise will make it quite an unknown territory to look for help, especially in areas invisible to LC world view… I have some suggestions. (I hope this is not stepping outside of the brief of this forum!!) Here goes…

‘Boundaries, when to say yes, when to say no, to take control of your life’ Henry Cloud and John Townsend. (They have other books and resources as well, including anger.)

‘Caring enough to Confront – how to understand and express your deepest feelings towards others’’ David Augsburger.

Healthy boundaries are not permitted or respected in the LC. This book will help dismantle the overemphasis on authority. When everyone has healthy boundaries and healthy respect for the other persons boundaries, then conflict and need for ‘authoritative direction’ is automatically greatly reduced.

Anger as a result of suppressing injustice, being exploited, and for some, outrightly abused. Being taught to rubbish your own feelings, opinions and individuality hurts deeply and anger is a mask for hurt. (show me an angry person and I’ll show you a hurting person!) Working through it, allowing time and process to create awareness and empowerment to gain control of anger and diffuse it.

Finding the courage to confront, be honest and transparent and able to develop integrity and emotional intimacy with others, to heal that disconnect that has been referred to so often on this forum.

All the above books are Christian.

My last suggestion is a book that I know nothing of the beliefs of the author. It’s a very simple book, but beautifully describes the journey for one coming out of a long-term oppressive situation, where one has lost a sense of who they are, and is not equipped and is overwhelmed by, the task of finding their way in a world they feel lost in. it is an emotional connection story rather than a self-help or intellectual process.

It’s a children’s picture book titled ‘Nothing’ by an author who goes by the name of Mick Inkpen. The content, though simple, is deep.

These I suggest and I also want to say the following: Nothing is lost in Gods REAL economy. All that happens to us is for a good purpose in Him. The hard experiences of life are our preparation to develop into something beautiful and precious for which there IS a plan and a purpose. No matter how deeply something has hurt or robbed us, He can restore us, though it takes time, and He can use it to protect and rescue others. ‘what man intended for harm, God has used for good, to accomplish the saving of many lives’ genesis 50:20. This applies to all of us, if we let it.

We need to very honest with Him about how we feel about what we’ve been through, He can handle it. He will use what has been forged in us for His glory, to accomplish things that could not be accomplished in another way. In the long term we can live to be glad for what we’ve gone through. There is hope, no matter how dark or messy the journey out can seem at the time.

I’m not going to tell my pre-story, and why I would track the LC without joining. But I will say, I can promise hope for the journey from my own experience. I have also come through trials, and on the pathway out there have been some very dark spots, and I’ve paid a price.

I hope these resources may help some people. I believe they will.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Curious

Now I have made a whole list of dysfunctional behaviours I observed in LC people, as I became more and more tuned in to what was going on around me. As listed on another post, they are: Judgementalism, relationship breakdowns, dramas, blame shifting, pretence, and I will add, anger to that list, both suppressed and explosive. I want to say, this behaviour sets in when people are in an environment that is emotionally unsafe. Everyone is protecting themselves, running for cover, passing the buck. No-one wants to be the fall-guy. Those who are cleverest at these tactics become the most successful within the social strata, but through means of deception and manipulation. When people are trapped within such a closed system, that’s all the reality a person knows.

Fascinating concept here, Curious! I have long wondered why I have been surrounded by people who so easily "explode" losing their temper. So many relationships have been destroyed. How can we say the fruit of the Spirit is self-control, (Gal 5.25) when so little is witnessed?

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Fascinating concept here, Curious! I have long wondered why I have been surrounded by people who so easily "explode" losing their temper. So many relationships have been destroyed. How can we say the fruit of the Spirit is self-control, (Gal 5.25) when so little is witnessed?

On the topic of anger as a ‘emotional product’ of being in an abusive environment:

Anger is a very real indicator of the true state of affairs. At the same time it is like a raging, out of control fire, it can cause a huge amount of destruction in a short space of time. It can be scary to for a person to lift the lid on it and have to negotiate what they have ‘consumed’ by allowing themselves to be submitted to a group that damages them. Also, once the lid is lifted, one can’t just put it back in the box. We have to move forwards, and have faith that God has the way ahead. The ‘volcanoes’ will get smaller and over time, and become something that will be replaced by the fruit of the Holy Spirit and a beautiful measure of self-control will replace the anger.

However, the shame of feeling so angry or having out-of-control bursts is a risk factor to moving forward as that shame can help keep the person trapped in the cycle of anger.

it's also worth noting, explosive anger gives a person a temporary surge of power, and can become a habit for a person who is otherwise conditioned to be unhealthily submissive. There is a danger of getting stuck there. However, if a person knows what’s happening, has awareness, owns it rather than blaming others, and works alongside help, and above all, prays their way through, then the pathway for emotional healing is secure.

I’m prattling on about this because the commentary of others on this thread, identifying with the features of an unhealthy emotional dynamic, has indicated worse than I actually thought!

Everything I am sharing about anger in the aftermath of abuse is from my own personal journey, not from a textbook. And it is all accurate, I'm not glossing or putting a spin on it. I'm absolutely truthful when I say its scary but it will be good in the long run.

I suggest that persons still in the LC who want to leave but are not strong enough, can begin the process of recovery on the quiet in order to prepare themselves. Stepping away is a huge and challenging thing to do, taking time to gear up for it seems sensible. It’s my suggestion to start moving forwards in manageable steps. my covering these emotional damage issues is my way of helping to see some ways a person may find helpful, and maintain hope, in negotiating their way to a better long-term place.

[Curious]

my last thought for the day:

If 'Shepherding Words' are right about everything they say, then nobody from the LC, current or former, will be interested in my commentary about emotional damage. It will be irrelevant to LC people. it will not generate any interest on this forum.

That there are people who are identifying with it is evidence in itself. That seems logical enough to me. Perhaps 'shepherding words' would like to address the evidence?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Curious

Now I have made a whole list of dysfunctional behaviours I observed in LC people, as I became more and more tuned in to what was going on around me. As listed on another post, they are: Judgementalism, relationship breakdowns, dramas, blame shifting, pretence, and I will add, anger to that list, both suppressed and explosive. I want to say, this behaviour sets in when people are in an environment that is emotionally unsafe. Everyone is protecting themselves, running for cover, passing the buck. No-one wants to be the fall-guy. Those who are cleverest at these tactics become the most successful within the social strata, but through means of deception and manipulation. When people are trapped within such a closed system, that’s all the reality a person knows.

...

Healthy boundaries are not permitted or respected in the LC. This book will help dismantle the overemphasis on authority. When everyone has healthy boundaries and healthy respect for the other persons boundaries, then conflict and need for ‘authoritative direction’ is automatically greatly reduced.

Anger as a result of suppressing injustice, being exploited, and for some, outrightly abused. Being taught to rubbish your own feelings, opinions and individuality hurts deeply and anger is a mask for hurt. (show me an angry person and I’ll show you a hurting person!) Working through it, allowing time and process to create awareness and empowerment to gain control of anger and diffuse it.

Finding the courage to confront, be honest and transparent and able to develop integrity and emotional intimacy with others, to heal that disconnect that has been referred to so often on this forum.

I totally agree with your list of dysfunctional behaviors you identified. I have seen them in spades, especially in the leadership. The rest you wrote quoted above is accurate according to my experience too.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

I have made a whole list of dysfunctional behaviours I observed in LC people, as I became more and more tuned in to what was going on around me. As listed on another post, they are: Judgementalism, relationship breakdowns, dramas, blame shifting, pretence, and I will add, anger to that list, both suppressed and explosive. I want to say, this behaviour sets in when people are in an environment that is emotionally unsafe. Everyone is protecting themselves, running for cover, passing the buck. No-one wants to be the fall-guy. Those who are cleverest at these tactics become the most successful within the social strata, but through means of deception and manipulation. When people are trapped within such a closed system, that’s all the reality a person knows..

There's a lot in the rest of this post as well, but I wanted to comment on this part especially.

My impression is that the chief error being taught in modern (Protestant and post-Protestant) Christianity by its current shepherds is that it's about you. How you are feeling, how you are doing. In the LC the jargon was "making it", i.e. being an overcomer. And the way to measure that was "enjoyment" in the LC "church life", i.e. active participation in meetings focused on Living Stream Ministry materials.

The problem is, it's not about you - it's about him. He is the one who "made it". Until you get this at a cellular level, until your whole being strains toward him, then you'll forever get waylaid by Christian teachers who get you to focus on you, as a prelude to your focus on them. Once your eyes are off Jesus, you are ripe for manipulation, which inevitably leads to some sort of abuse as referenced above.

And as noted at the end of the previous post (#34), any of us can fall into this, at any level. I can focus on "what's wrong in the LC", as if there were nothing wrong with me. I can become loveless, bitter, judgmental. Conversely, I can puff up other forum members and become political, instead of obsessively fixating my consciousness on Jesus alone. Anyone can get distracted, and then distract (stumble) others.

Jesus taught, "These things were written concerning me". He's truly the only one who can safely be self-focused, because his self was completely dictated by the Father's will expressed in scripture. None else can claim this. He's the Second Adam, and there's no third. He's the Deputy God. He is Today's Moses, the sole law-giver ("Obey me, as I obey the Father's commands"). There is no Today's Paul - that is a ruse to pull you under another's influence. There is one mediator between God and man - the man Christ Jesus. Scripture is unequivocal.

He said, "I always do the Father's will." None else can say this.

And I want to echo what was said in the next-to-last sentence quoted above. In systems like the LC, one gets ahead by receiving the displaced anxiety and shame of the leader, and successfully channeling it "down" to one below you. One rises in the group social strata by surreptitiously displacing the leader's unease and disquiet. And who suffers the most? Those at the bottom. The most powerful testimonies are the people like Jo Casteel and Jane Anderson, who had to "take it" but couldn't "give it". They became receptacles of someone else's displaced shame. Their witness shows a system that is wrong at its core.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

As I read this, I was struck by what a system of error the LC has become. This is such a remarkable contrast to me, that is, contrasting my time there in the early 70s with what you wrote. Back then, the fresh and living experiences of Christ, and genuine fellowship there, were bountiful (albeit, admittedly quickly fading)! It is obvious to me, and so many others on here, that the LC has now turned WL and his teachings into a bona fide cult figure, which has totally replaced Christ and the Anointing!

STG, of course, we are contemporaries, having crossed paths back in Columbus. I'm not sure if you remember Phil Comfort or not, but one of my distinct memories from those early days (I first met the saints in June 1973), was their intense desire to firstly "come back to the pure word of God," and secondly to focus solely on "Christ, only Christ." This struggle, by all the members, brought much blessing.

In a sense, this was my "foundation" in the Recovery. These two in tandem were, in essence, the "Recovery" as it was presented to me. As a former Catholic I was constantly becoming aware of how much tradition had replaced the basic message of His word. It seemed that each discovery was so liberating, releasing me from the bondage of the traditions of men. I even loved the bright lights in the meeting hall since that freed me from the tradition of worshiping God in the darkness of the Catholic church.

Sure, there was lots of "background noise" in those early days, like the ground of oneness and some minister out in Anaheim. But, how things have changed! "Christ, only Christ," got replaced with "Lee, only Lee." "Coming back to the pure word of God," got replaced by "laboring into the 'interpreted word' of the ministry." How could this have happened? Was no one paying attention?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

STG, of course, we are contemporaries, having crossed paths back in Columbus. I'm not sure if you remember Phil Comfort or not, but one of my distinct memories from those early days (I first met the saints in June 1973), was their intense desire to firstly "come back to the pure word of God," and secondly to focus solely on "Christ, only Christ." This struggle, by all the members, brought much blessing.

In a sense, this was my "foundation" in the Recovery. These two in tandem were, in essence, the "Recovery" as it was presented to me. As a former Catholic I was constantly becoming aware of how much tradition had replaced the basic message of His word. It seemed that each discovery was so liberating, releasing me from the bondage of the traditions of men. I even loved the bright lights in the meeting hall since that freed me from the tradition of worshiping God in the darkness of the Catholic church.

Sure, there was lots of "background noise" in those early days, like the ground of oneness and some minister out in Anaheim. But, how things have changed! "Christ, only Christ," got replaced with "Lee, only Lee." "Coming back to the pure word of God," got replaced by "laboring into the 'interpreted word' of the ministry." How could this have happened? Was no one paying attention?

Of course I remember Phil Comfort and his brother! There was still a good focus on Christ, I think, in Columbus in those days . . . (I left Columbus in 88, and the LC there a little earlier)

These days I've really been aware of a couple prayers I prayed when he saved me off the street, way back in 74. He reminds me of these two prayers frequently and I distinctly remember both. One was, "Lord, take me to be with those that love you the way I do." His first step was to almost immediately transport me 2000 miles away from Ohio to the LC in Berkeley. Then in the early 80s, he led me and my new wife to LCs in Ohio (she loved the gatherings!). Then in the late 90s He led me here to the Scottsdale group. He has always been faithful to that prayer! Praise Him! Praise Him!