Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Raptor

1 Timothy 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Paul says I AM (the foremost, worst, first, chief) SINNER

And why should the apostle Paul make such a statement? Because on this side of the Judgment Seat it's the only safe position to take. When the Judge calls you higher, then go. Until then, no.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

And why should the apostle Paul make such a statement? Because on this side of the Judgment Seat it's the only safe position to take. When the Judge calls you higher, then go. Until then, no.

This was addressed earlier (post #11). Paul says this about himself, looking back upon when he persecuted Christ (the church), in deep humbleness. Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> Dare I say, you won't find it! (unless I've missed it, which of course may be possible, but I doubt it)

In God's eyes it's a done deal folks! The terms God uses now are quite definitive for His many sons: New creation! Crucified! The life I NOW live . . . and so forth. Put off the old man and put on the new man. It is finished. Come into the realm of the Spirit where things are reality . . . not taking just our view and supposedly accurate experience.

So here's the challenge - find a specific passage in the NT to support the idea that born agains are identified as sinners.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This was addressed earlier (post #11). Paul says this about himself, looking back upon when he persecuted Christ (the church), in deep humbleness. Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> Dare I say, you won't find it! (unless I've missed it, which of course may be possible, but I doubt it)

In God's eyes it's a done deal folks! The terms God uses now are quite definitive for His many sons: New creation! Crucified! The life I NOW live . . . and so forth. Put off the old man and put on the new man. It is finished. Come into the realm of the Spirit where things are reality . . . not taking just our view and supposedly accurate experience.

So here's the challenge - find a specific passage in the NT to support the idea that born agains are identified as sinners.

1 John 1:8 https://biblehub.com/blb/1_john/1.htm

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This was addressed earlier (post #11). Paul says this about himself, looking back upon when he persecuted Christ (the church), in deep humbleness. Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> .

He did not say of which I was the worst, but I AM.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Show me a place Paul then says that we are to call ourselves sinners --> Dare I say, you won't find it! (unless I've missed it, which of course may be possible, but I doubt it)

In God's eyes it's a done deal folks!

Either you are fundamentally misreading humanity's position in the Bible, or I am. When Peter met Jesus, he fell down and said, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man." I see nothing in his subsequent speaking, writing, or acts that nullified this.

Jesus refused the title of "good teacher", saying none is good but God. This was Jesus, who knew no sin, yet as a fellow human became sin on our behalf (yes, a sinner) that we might be freed.

We're called to be holy, as God is, but who can say that they have laid hold? If Paul said no, who can? (Phil 3:12) I say for the umpteenth time, we must wait for the Judgment Seat.

The psalmist asked God to save him from presumptuous sin (Psa 19:13). If Jesus took the place of "not good", per Luke 18:18,19, then how can we? If you insist on seeing the term "sinner" as different from "not good" then you're probably chasing down the same kind of rabbit trails of logic and reasoning that produced Nee, Lee, and so many others. Ground of oneness, anyone? Nee and Lee were masters of presumption, or I should say, they were mastered by it.

STG, you may be a better person than I, since I resonate with Paul's acknowledgment as "chief among sinners". But we've seen so many take a special interpretive stance, a personal revelation or insight, which then leads them and their followers off somewhere else. So please forgive us if your interpretation gets a doubting eye on this forum.

On the cross Jesus experienced the torment of the sinner, cut off from the Father. I fix my eyes upon him, suffering there, knowing that it is by this one righteous act that I'm made free. I dare not look at myself.

[Sons to Glory!]

Yes, we sin - a hundred times - YES! Does that constitute who we are? NO!

Let's look at some facts concerning what the New Testament says about believers:

• Born again
• Crucified
• Dead to sin
• Washed
• Redeemed
• Alive to God
• Saints
• Sons of God

"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Once we were sinners who could only sin - now we are Saints who sometimes still sin.

Sin now resides in the flesh. But we are not in the flesh, but in spirit. He left us with the flesh of sin for a purpose - to help us turn to Him, experience Him and be transformed by Him.

Everyone points out Paul saying he was the "chief of sinners." (I've heard this for years.) Show me where he says Saints are sinners! Would you hang all of your belief on this one statement of Paul's, or go by the myriad of things the NT says about us (of which just a few are listed above)?

[Sons to Glory!]

Just Googled "are believers sinners" and here are three things that came up - all good reads (and hopefully conveys it more clearly than I apparently am).

Q&A Are Believers Sinners?

Article: Saint or Sinner? Rethinking the language of our christian identity

And then this from here:

I am writing this to you, my children, so that you will not sin; but if anyone does sin, we have someone who pleads with the Father on our behalf—Jesus Christ… 1 John 2:1 TEV

God’s goal for you is that you will not sin. Notice that the Apostle John does not say “when you sin,” but if. Yes, we all fall short, and yes, while we were still sinners God saved us, but that does not mean the realm of sin is where we stay. By constantly saying, “I’m a sinner—but I’m so thankful God saved me and forgives me!”we live with a sin consciousness. If we are living according to the revelation of grace, our hearts should instead be focused on a right standing with God consciousness. As a believer, you may still sin, but you are not a sinner.

Those who keep on sinning have never known [Christ] or understood who he is…. It shows they belong to the Devil… (1 John 3:6, 8 NLT)

The Amplified Bible puts 1 John 3:6 this way: “No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him….” The new covenant of grace empowers us to be free of both the penalty and power of sin so that we no longer habitually practice ungodliness. Yet sin consciousness will steer us right back into sin.

[Ohio]

Paul warned Peter in Antioch, many years after he was saved, that he could be found to be a sinner ... Gal 2.17

But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

Here Paul did NOT say that we could not be found to be sinners, but that even if we were sinners, then still Christ would not be a minister of sin.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul warned Peter in Antioch, many years after he was saved, that he could be found to be a sinner ... Gal 2.17
Here Paul did NOT say that we could not be found to be sinners, but that even if we were sinners, then still Christ would not be a minister of sin.

Good - you're looking! The next verse (2:18) says, "If I rebuild what I have already torn down, I prove myself to be a lawbreaker." So wasn't that which was mentioned in verse 17 already "torn down"? I think Paul is referring to trying to build up that whole system of sin conscientiousness again.

So should we call ourselves sinners, focus on that as our identity and have a sin conscientiousness? Of course not!

(and I am not opposed to using the word "sinner" entirely, it's just that too often it gets used to refer to who we are. We are saints who sometimes sin.)